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Fonterra – killing Orangutans.

Written By: - Date published: 3:48 pm, October 6th, 2010 - 44 comments
Categories: Conservation, Environment, farming, sustainability - Tags:

There has been an interesting ad from Greenpeace running around the site today. It is obviously intended to go viral before the lawyers from Fonterra get it into court…

I think I might help out a bit… So should you – dump it onto the social media.

44 comments on “Fonterra – killing Orangutans.”

  1. the sprout 1

    Have seen van der Heyden has been caught practicing calf abortion to increase his milk production? It is truly disgusting.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/4173795/Dairy-boss-in-calving-strife

    Fonterra have condemned the practice but their Chair still does it on his own farm.

    Where do they get these monkeys?

    • grumpy 1.1

      Another dairy farmer with a dutch name in the news again. Calf abortion is a disgrace, I thought it was banned but it appears it’s only “being phased out”. What’s the bet as a result of Fonterra lobbying.

      • Nick C 1.1.1

        Whats your position on human abortion?

        • grumpy 1.1.1.1

          Pretty much the same – it’s the mother’s right to choose. Now, plonker, have you ever seen a cow give birth to an induced calf and try her heart out trying to get it up? Cows have huge mothering instinct, the greatest effect is not on the calf but the cow.

          What’s you position on forced abortion in the 8th month on humans plonker?

          • Rob A 1.1.1.1.1

            And how many human mothers get thier head cut off 10 months later because they’ve failed to get re-impregnated in time?

            And gidday Grumpy, they miss you on usenet

            • grumpy 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Wrong “grumpy”, there must be more than one of us – who would have thought…….?

            • Nick C 1.1.1.1.1.2

              The right to have an abortion is based on the idea that humans have the right to control their bodies. Saying that a cow should have the right to control its body is absurd given that we are happy to kill cows for food; clearly no control of body there.

              It would be consistent of you to believe that calf abortion is wrong if you think that meat and farming animals generally is wrong, which is not what most people think.

              • Rob A

                True, but were many practices on farms that are now no longer allowed for a lot lesser reasons than the issues around induction. In the time I was farming we had tail docking banned and bobby calve collection change from the roadside to the rearing barn. Its all about market perception and if Fonterra chooses to show thier dairy products as clean and green from free range cows then certain things have to change. Palm kernel, effluent disposal and induction included.

                Speaking as someone who spent 15 years dairy farming I can see the reasons for induction to continue and how in the long run its actually better for animal welfare but as this whole debate shows there isn’t much point in fighting the tide of laymen who only see dead calves on the TV.

        • grumpy 1.1.1.2

          Oh, and Nick C, those that are born still breathing are killed with a hammer – does that happen in your local abortion clinic? plonker!

  2. grumpy 2

    I am sure someone can help out here, but I understood palm kernel was a byproduct of bio diesel production?

    • lprent 2.1

      Yep in some areas. But the bulk of its use has been in cooking oils. Wikipedia has a pretty good section

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_oil

      But also have a close read of this…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_palm_oil

      The problem for climate change (apart from deforestation that Greenpeace is talking about) is that most of new palm oil plantations are in recently deforested peat bogs.

      Peat bogs are massive stores of biologically stored anaerobic carbon. When they dry out the bogs for farming they also start the process of drying out that carbon and it winds up in the atmosphere as CO2 and CH4 over the following decades.

      At many levels commercial palm oil plantations cost a damn sight more than they are ‘beneficial’.

    • Bunji 2.2

      it can be used as bio diesel – which can be made from all sorts of plants. Indeed in Malaysia 5% of all diesel must be palm oil.

      But the vast majority of palm kernel / palm oil comes from unsustainably logged forest in Malaysia and (particularly) Indonesia. Destroying vast swathes of forest, and habitat for more endangered species (including the iconic orang-utan).

      Most major companies seem to be part of a sustainable palm oil group (like Cadbury’s, who tried to use this as their defence)… which endeavours to try to get sustainable palm oil… whilst actually buying unsustainable palm oil. I guess over the next ~5 years we’ll see how much they’re talk and how much they’re action – they have aims to be a nearly sustainable industry by 2015. Whether there’s any orang-utans around by then, well that’s another question.

      • Bunji 2.2.1

        Oop, lprent’s answered faster and better than I.

        • grumpy 2.2.1.1

          Thanks lprent and Bunji, so what we have here is the dairy industry (who I have no time for) are using a product that is surplus when biodiesel is made. But, weren’t Greenpeace etc. the ones who campaigned for biodiesel? Isn’t this a bit hypocritical if Greenpeace?

          • lprent 2.2.1.1.1

            I can’t remember Greenpeace ever campaigning for biodiesel, and I’d be pretty surprised if they had. Perhaps you should look for a supporting link?

            Mostly the recent proponents of biodiesel that I’ve seen have been farmers and their political supporters. The previous generation of proponents were economic isolationists.

            There are quite a few proponents wanting to get fuel from waste products. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen a green activist wanting to cut down forests to institute a monoculture.

            I suspect you’re just looking at a RWNJ myth….

            • grumpy 2.2.1.1.1.1

              Perhaps a Greenpeace type person might clarify……..

              • jimmy

                Palm Kernel is a by-product of palm oil manufacture (its the shell of the nut that palm oil is made of). Basically its a suplementary feed that farmers use to boost production and a sizeable chunk of the dairy expansion in the past decade has been fueled by it (most farms are pasture based but farmers often give the cows a feed after milking from what I understand). They try justify it in saying that its only a by-product and it would otherwise go to waste but if you know basic economics making something more profitable is a sure way of incentivising it.

                Heres a quote from the herald to show just how bad it has got: “In 2004 when the study began, palm kernel cake imports were just 95,920 tonnes. In 2008 they swelled to just over a million tonnes, falling back to 665,382 tonnes in 2009”.

                In the same article they are also talking about possible links with trans-fats from palm kernel coming through our milk supply as well (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/healthy-living/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501238&objectid=10677503). Palm kernels is just a cheap but highly destructive way of making us richer at the expense of the planet.

                • grumpy

                  OK, you got me, pretty convincing argument! Damn dairy farmers.

                • graham

                  You are incorrect pke like any other supliment is used when growth doesnt equal demand
                  extra feed in the south island is used on the sholders of the season
                  sometimes it can be to wet or to dry and it impacts on grass growth
                  in my case i am currently feeding 2kg/day when growth hits 65/day i will stop
                  at the end of the day the reason why we do it is to make money if it cost us to much we would stop
                  The dairy industry is what fuels this economy thank you would be nice

            • Rob A 2.2.1.1.1.2

              http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/blog/climate/bio-diesel-green-fuel-we-can-use-today

              But to be fair that is a decade old link although you did say ‘ever’

              • lprent

                Yeah I should have been clearer and specified unsustainable bio-diesel… The problem with palm-oil is that it is pretty inherently a slash’n’burn technology and unsustainable over the medium term.

                I have less of an issue with the crops identified by that Greenpeace identified..

                It is made either directly from crops such as rapeseed, sunflower and soya, or by recycling cooking oil.

                From memory the palm-oil based version is a relatively recent aberration

    • graham 2.3

      you do realise only 1 in 5 calfs are reared the rest are sent on the bobby truck after 4 days

      • grumpy 2.3.1

        Of course I do – that is the way it’s always been – except for those that get raised to weaning and then sold, or replacement heifers. That is traditional farming and has nothing to do, nor mitigates inducing.
        As a beef farmer, we also induced (late or over term) a couple of cows this year but only for the health of the cow. All calves survived and are happily with their mothers. funny, but in our business we do everything we can to keep calves alive…….

        • graham 2.3.1.1

          you do realise it is aganist the current guide lines to have a live calf after induction
          a calf is worth to us somewere between $2-30
          a cow will produce $2800 for me this year
          and at the end of the day you still kill yours

  3. belladonna 3

    Dairy – kills the planet, kills the cows and kills us.

  4. Saga 4

    This is misinterpretation. Additional feeding is a normal practice in the world. ( I am from Poland and there you have to feed cows during the half of the Autumn, whole winter and a half of the spring. One of the stupid Greenpeace campaigns. I would go for a campaign against calf abortion.
    But Greenpeace don’t have one!

    • lprent 4.1

      The point is that if they fed from materials that they make locally during spring and summer, I don’t think that anyone would have too many issues.

      However when you ship additional feed in from halfway around the world it does seem somewhat silly and unsustainable.

      Moreover when that feed comes from a completely unsustainable source it becomes ludicrous. Farmers getting reliant on such a source are setting themselves up for failure when (not if) the source of such feed ever gets shut off.

      It gets totally moronic when you realize the devastating slash and burn deforestation that goes on to produce plantations that will be unproductive after they’ve exhausted the soil fertility.

      • grumpy 4.1.1

        As a dry stock farmer in Canterbury who sells grass to dairy farmers, I believe that Canterbury is not capable of growing enough feed to satisfy the dairy industry now (in a normal year). Hence the palm kernel?

        • graham 4.1.1.1

          grumpy you are incorrect
          I grow 16 tonnes a hectare of grass per year on my irrigated farm
          factor in the grain and other suppliments that is not a issue
          The problem with grain is you can only feed 4kg day of grain
          and buying grass to make silage is not worth it
          it costs $3.5 of grain or pke to produce a kgms
          it costs $4.8 of grass or maze silage to produce a kgms
          And even if it was so what you have to think of dairy farms as mini factorys we are converting kgdms to milk
          just like china imports iron ore and coal to make steel

          • grumpy 4.1.1.1.1

            graham, unlike you many dairy farmers are not self sufficient and rely heavily on buying in feed. Last year we got 14c/kg, the year before it was 17c/kg, not sure what it will be this year. Many dry stock and arable farmers in Canterbury sell their excess grass to dairy farmers – as I am sure you know.

            • graham 4.1.1.1.1.1

              that may be so mate but the numbers dont stack up
              if buying in feed grain or pke is the way to go its the wastage that kills sillage
              unless you are feeding in summer with no mud you can expect 40 percent wastage
              i buy in about 300kgs a cow all pke at this stage but plan to put in a grain feeder next season .but will expect to still need about 100kg a cow of pke

              • Rob A

                Whats your stocking rate graham? And your N rate?

                Because your numbers aren’t adding up for me if I’m reading correctly that you need to feed 300 kg per cow over a season. If you are needing to feed over 4kg/day of pke you are heading for dramas mate

                You talk about needing to buy in grass for silage not being worth it but where is your surplus going?

                • graham

                  3.h/hectare
                  i make some from my own land
                  because it a surplus it is less already 14-17 cents cheaper a kg dm
                  200kg hectare per year
                  in canterbury average suppliment fead to a cow is from 300-600 it depends on your local climate etc
                  i feed 400kgs
                  at the end of the day its all about what comes out the over end in cash that is what counts
                  you do the math milking season of 280 days average of 1.5kg a day

      • Joe Bloggs 4.1.2

        more dissembling and halftruths eh Munt?

        Yep in some areas. But the bulk of its use has been in cooking oils
        PKE is a by-product from the extraction of palm oil – it’s not used in cooking oils, it’s a byproduct of cooking oil production. The oil producers should be congratulated for finding an environmentally useful way of using the processing wastes like this

        when you ship additional feed in from halfway around the world …
        It doesn’t come from half way round the world – NZ imports from Malaysia and Indonesia.

        Too much emotive BS, not enough grasp of reality.

      • graham 4.1.3

        So china shouldnt use our high quality coal combined with the aussie iron ore to make steel
        useing some stocks of a waste product to increase milk solids is no different
        in fact it is great business

  5. BLiP 5

    Brilliant – just brilliant.

  6. Ron 6

    Well “dairy” doesn’t do any such thing. Some current dairy priactices certainly contribute to all three outcomes.

  7. d2ba 7


    Dave Nash Band, Fonterra You Dirty Bastards

  8. GP 8

    Putting aside the ethics of using PKE, I just wanted to make these points.

    People are forgetting here that the PKE import spike coincided with the drought in 2007-2008.
    Prices for supplementry feeds other than PKE ie feed wheat and barley and maize skyrocketed at the same time and this is why many dairy farmers used PKE as it was cheap.
    I work in the farming industry in South Canterbury and my impression from talking to farmers is that there is a move away from using tonnes of PKE as a supplement and a shift back to grass only diets and feed grain and barley.

    This is because many farmers recognise that PKE isn’t good nutrutionally for cows. It messes with their metabolic system and their stomachs often have trouble digesting it and ironically I hear that the cows produce less milk eating it, plus the price of feed grain has come right down too.

    In saying that, there will always be farmers that will use it because its a cheap, easy, convenient feed source and with more droughts to come, I think its here to stay. I’m not defending it but that’s the reality of the situation.

    The other thing that hasn’t been mentioned here is that PKE imports are a huge biosecurity threat to this country as those countries in south east asia that export the stuff dont follow the same strict regualtions that we do.

  9. To mark passing 70,000 views of the Fonterra milk ad Greenpeace has launched http://www.fonterra-secrets.com

  10. nick 10

    To mark topping 70,000 views of the video we’ve launched a new showcase page at http://www.fonterra-secrets.com

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  • Raise the Bar: hospitality workers & wage subsidy entitlements
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  • Lifting our game against COVID-19
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  • The maths and ethics of minimising COVID-19 deaths in NZ
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  • All aboard the Covid Train
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    1 week ago
  • A plea to experts: safeguard your role in public life
    I am a pundit, somebody who opines and comments on the news. There are no real qualifications to punditry though having a rudimentary way with words and good general knowledge helps. That is one reason there is a constant oversupply of would-be pundits and why it is quite hard to ...
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  • Enlightenment when?
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  • What the Crisis Can teach Us
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  • Hammering home measures to stop COVID-19
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    PunditBy Andrew Geddis
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  • What does ‘level two’ mean – and why does it matter?
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    SciBlogsBy Siouxsie Wiles
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  • Is the Guardian becoming  a real newspaper again?
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  • Politics, the possible, and the pandemic
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  • The Only Way Through This Crisis Is Together.
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  • GFC vs Covid-19
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    PunditBy Brian Easton
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  • Nobody Left Behind.
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    2 weeks ago
  • Rebuilding a truly “Democratic” counter, or a “moderate Republican” bolt-hol...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Abortion law reform a win for women
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    2 weeks ago
  • How to spot bogus science stories and read the news like a scientist
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • Why New Zealand needs to continue decisive action to contain coronavirus
    Michael Baker, University of Otago and Nick Wilson, University of Otago With some of the toughest border restrictions and a newly-announced NZ$500 million boost to health services, New Zealand is among a small number of countries with a strategy to contain the COVID-19 pandemic. New Zealand is also fortunate in ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Parliament and the pandemic II
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • When a virus goes viral: pros and cons to the coronavirus spread on social media
    Axel Bruns, Queensland University of Technology; Daniel Angus, Queensland University of Technology; Timothy Graham, Queensland University of Technology, and Tobias R. Keller, Queensland University of Technology News and views about coronavirus has spread via social media in a way that no health emergency has done before. Platforms like Twitter, Facebook, ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • How to survive 14 days of self-isolation
    So you’ve recently returned from overseas, come into contact with someone who tested positive, got a bit of a dry cough yourself or perhaps just want to self isolate for 14 days to avoid other people who might have COVID-19. Here are a few tips and tricks to help get ...
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  • Abortion Legislation Bill passes third reading
    Some fave speeches:     ...
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  • Why Leadership Matters – More Than Anything.
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    2 weeks ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #11, 2020
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  • 68-51
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • The ‘herd immunity’ route to fighting coronavirus is unethical and potentially dangerous
    As most of the world tries to suppress the coronavirus spread, some countries are going it alone – trying to manage the pandemic through so-called “herd immunity”. Herd immunity means letting a large number of people catch a disease, and hence develop immunity to it, to stop the virus spreading. ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • Eight new COVID-19 cases today. It’s no surprise when you look at some numbers
    So, as I sit at home with a very, very slight headache (i.e. not at work when I would otherwise be so), the now familiar figure of Ashley Bloomfield reports eight new confirmed cases of COVID-19  including two in Waikato. A surprise, given that we had just twelve yesterday? No. ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • The WINZ Paradox versus the new COVID-19 Reality: Get real people, seriously…
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    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    2 weeks ago

  • Christchurch Hospital Hagley ICU to open to support COVID-19 response
    Health Minister Dr David Clark says 36 new intensive care beds at Christchurch Hospital’s new Hagley building are being fast tracked so they are available for treatment of COVID-19 patients.   The Ministry of Health is working with contractor CPB and Canterbury DHB to enable access to the hospital’s ICU, ...
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  • Government supports Air NZ freight flights
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    14 hours ago
  • Tariff concessions on COVID-19 related products
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Clarification of modification to wage subsidy scheme
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Face masks flowing to DHBs
    Medical face masks from the national reserve supply are now being distributed to District Health Boards, while at the same time local production is being ramped up. Yesterday more than 640,000 masks were sent to DHBS – that is an immediate two week supply, with more to follow in coming ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • COVID-19: Further steps to protect New Zealanders’ jobs
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Tax relief for Mycoplasma Bovis farmers
    Farmers whose herds were culled in response to the outbreak of Mycoplasma bovis will be able to minimise the tax treatment of their income in some circumstances. Revenue Minister Stuart Nash says Cabinet has agreed to change the law. It means farmers may be eligible to spread their income over ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • $27 million for NGOs and community groups to continue providing essential services
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    4 days ago
  • Statement on guilty plea of March 15 terrorist
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • COVID-19 updates
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    4 days ago
  • Police numbers break through 10,000 mark
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Urgent tax measures for economic recovery
    Urgent legislation has been passed to support the package of economic and social measures needed to recover from the impact of the coronavirus outbreak. “The COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill will cushion New Zealanders from the worst economic impacts of the COVID-19 outbreak,” said Revenue Minister ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Further support for farmers and growers as drought persists
    From tomorrow, Government support for farmers and growers affected by drought will be expanded and extended across the country, with access to Rural Assistance Payments (RAPS) available throughout the North Island, parts of the South Island and the Chatham Islands, Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni announced. “These challenging conditions have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • COVID-19: Temporary changes to Education Act
    Parliament has passed amendments to legislation that give the Secretary of Education stronger powers to act in the fight to limit the spread of COVID-19, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “They are part of a suite of changes passed under the COVID-19 Response (Urgent Management Measures) Legislation Bill,” Chris ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar join NZ and Singapore in committing to keeping supply a...
    Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar have joined forces with New Zealand and Singapore by committing to keep supply chains open and remove any existing trade restrictive measures on essential goods, especially medical supplies, in the face of the Covid-19 crisis.  Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker today welcomed ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • COVID-19: Rent increase freeze and more protection for tenants
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Working together to protect businesses and workers
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • State of National Emergency declared to fight COVID-19
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Prime Minister’s statement on State of National Emergency and Epidemic Notice
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Deadline for domestic travel extended
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Mortgage holiday and business finance support schemes to cushion COVID impacts
    The Government, retail banks and the Reserve Bank are today announcing a major financial support package for home owners and businesses affected by the economic impacts of COVID-19. The package will include a six month principal and interest payment holiday for mortgage holders and SME customers whose incomes have been ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government working to keep air freight moving
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New Zealand moves to COVID-19 Alert Level 3, then Level 4 in 48 hours
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister: COVID-19 Alert Level increased
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Govt takes significant economic decisions as NZ readies for Alert Level 4 in COVID-19 fight
    The Government is announcing significant further support for the economy, workers and businesses as the country unites to prepare for Alert Level 4 in the fight against COVID-19. Cabinet today agreed to remove the cap on the Government’s wage subsidy scheme, which will inject a further $4 billion into the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Govt backs RBNZ move to support economy with lower interest rates
    The Government is backing the Reserve Bank’s latest action to support the economy by reducing longer-term interest rates, meaning lower costs for businesses and mortgage holders, and a lower currency to help our exporters. The Minister of Finance has signed a memorandum of understanding and a letter of indemnity with ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government statement on commercial cooperation during COVID-19
    The Government has asked the Commerce Commission to take account of the exceptional circumstances created by COVID-19 when monitoring business behaviour in coming weeks.   “The purpose of my request to the Commerce Commission is to make sure businesses can work together in ways that will allow them to provide ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand temporarily closes diplomatic posts in Barbados and Myanmar due to COVID-19
    The New Zealand Government has temporarily closed its High Commission in Bridgetown, Barbados and its Embassy in Yangon, Myanmar due to the COVID-19 pandemic, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “Due to the increasing scarcity of air links in and out of Bridgetown and Yangon, and the pressure COVID-19 is placing ...
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    1 week ago
  • Supporting Māori communities and businesses through
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Guidelines for hospitality establishments released
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    1 week ago
  • Nation steps up to COVID-19 Alert Level 2
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    1 week ago
  • PM Address – Covid-19 Update
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    1 week ago
  • NZ and Singapore commit to keeping supply and trade links open, including on essential goods and med...
    New Zealand and Singapore have jointly committed to keep supply chains open and to remove any existing trade restrictive measures on essential goods, especially medical supplies, in the face of the Covid-19 crisis. Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker welcomed the commitment. “This is an important collective response, and ...
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    1 week ago
  • Joint Ministerial Statement by Singapore and New Zealand -Covid-19 situation
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Transit between Australia and New Zealand
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • $100 million to redeploy workers
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • More support for wood processing
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Govt steps in to protect Air New Zealand
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Stronger border measures to protect NZers from COVID-19
    The Government has taken further measures to protect New Zealanders from the COVID-19 virus, effectively stopping all people from boarding a plane to New Zealand from 11:59pm today, except for returning New Zealanders, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced today.  New Zealanders’ partners, legal guardians or any dependent children travelling with ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Action on indoor gatherings and events to protect public health
    The Government has reinforced its commitment to protecting the health of New Zealanders from COVID-19 through the cancellation of indoor events with more than 100 people.  “Protecting the health of New Zealanders is our number one priority, and that means we need to reduce the risks associated with large gatherings,” ...
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    2 weeks ago