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GCSB Bill opposition heats up

Written By: - Date published: 10:21 am, July 26th, 2013 - 123 comments
Categories: david cunliffe, david shearer, Deep stuff, democracy under attack, internet, labour - Tags: ,

GCSB mask

I attended the Auckland stop the GCSB Bill meeting last night and I was really impressed.  The turnout was huge.  Mt Albert War Memorial Hall was packed and there was a large number of people outside the hall and in the foyer.

The speakers were very good.  The meeting was chaired by the erudite and witty former High Court Judge Ted Thomas.  Very interesting contributions were made by Dame Anne Salmond, Dr Rodney Harrison, Kim Dotcom himself and Thomas Beagle.  Each of their contributions deserve to be seen in full and you can see the video here.

Some contributions stood out.  Dame Anne Salmond read out this principled and very relevant passage:

Here in New Zealand we often take our democratic freedoms for granted. We think they will always be there. We have a Bill of Rights which is supposed to protect our right to freedom of expression. What on earth could go wrong?

I have a different view. I believe what Thomas Jefferson said – that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. There are times when we have to stand up for our rights, and the rights of our neighbours and friends, and indeed the rights of people we totally disagree with, or else these rights will begin to erode away.

The passage is from a speech that John Key gave to the Press Club in 2007 about the Electoral Finance Bill.

She also made the wonderful comment that Members of Parliament are sent there to represent us, not rule us.

Dr Rodney Harrison thought that the intent of the bill may have been a desire by the Government to allow the Police and the SIS access to data gathered by Waihopai Base.

Thomas Beagle presented the most concise reason for opposing the law change, when they want to take away our rights they have to persuade us that they have a good justification to do so and they have not shown that they have that justification.

Kim Dotcom let a further piece of information drop and it will no doubt cause further discussion and debate although it appears that it may not be new news.  The SIS removed the red flag from his immigration file the day after John Key met a group of Hollywood Moguls.  Was a trap being laid relying on New Zealand’s extradition treaty with the United States?  Expect further revelations soon.

David Cunliffe was put on the spot and asked to state Labour’s position.  He said this:

Sometimes you have issues where you feel your ancestors fluttering around the ceiling, and the Labour party has a proud tradition of taking on evil and iniquitous legislation, whether it’s apartheid, or nuclear weapons, or other things of that nature.

Our leader has committed to a thorough review of this legislation.

And based upon what we have heard tonight, I personally and I’m sure my caucus colleagues, would be of the view that this legislation must not, will not and cannot stand.

Conspiracy theorists are saying that he was undermining David Shearer who was in the hall at the time.  They are wrong.  David Cunliffe was at the hall early and was seated at the front of the room.  David Shearer arrived late and when I left was in the foyer at the back.  Clearly Cunliffe did not see Shearer.

And in related developments the GCSB bill has been reported back with changes including the vaunted insertion of principles underpinning performance of the Bureau’s functions.  The only problem with them, as noted by Idiot Savant, is that they do not impose particular duties on the Director or any employee of the Bureau.  It appears that the principles are “nice to haves” and do not have any legal force.

Tomorrow protests are planned throughout the country.  As John Key said, it is time for us to stand up for our rights.

Details updated (thanks Weka)

GCSB protests

Stop the GCSB Bill

 

123 comments on “GCSB Bill opposition heats up ”

  1. Richard Christie 1

    David Cunliffe was at the hall early and was seated at the front of the room. David Shearer arrived late and when I left was in the foyer at the back. Clearly Cunliffe did not see Shearer.

    Not indicative of a cohesive organisation though.
    Surely attending Labour MPs should of known that Shearer was to attend and should have had a prepared strategy for this eventuality.

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 1.1

      Surely Shearer should have led the opposition rather than just turning up to observe them.

      • Colonial Viper 1.1.1

        Absolutely – if he actually opposes the GCSB bill, that is.

        And for those who say that Cunliffe taking the mike is the start of another leadership bid…that’s BS. He was a local MP talking to his constituents about an issue they raised serious concerns about. Period.

        • gobsmacked 1.1.1.1

          Text from leader to all MPs: “i will be at GCSB mtg tonite, will take Qs”.

          3 seconds, job done, coffee break.

          Can I be Shearer’s chief of staff please?

          • Arfamo 1.1.1.1.1

            Only if you promise to do the talking for him too.

            • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Let’s see what magic Fran Mold can work for Shearer in the next couple of months. Tick-tock-tick-tock.

              • Arfamo

                Nope. Time was up last night. We’ve had this discussion before. Monday. 🙂

                • Colonial Viper

                  😈

                • Jilly Bee

                  Tick-tock, tick-tock indeed, the leader’s interview on 3 News tonight did nothing to dispel my misgivings about DS’s abilities to be a capable leader of Labour or a PM in waiting.

        • King Kong 1.1.1.2

          How would you know?

        • Takere 1.1.1.3

          Oh but Dunk’n Gardner & Blubber Oil and Baby Bumface Gower have reliable sauces?! Tom Mato & K Chup! Desperate journo hacks that really need to watch RT & Al Jazeera TV to get some ideas for real news and how to report facts, think objectively and discuss issues before drawing conclusions?? Or is that too hard??

    • AmaKiwi 1.2

      Shearer’s plane was late. Plain and simple. That’s why Shearer was not at the front of the audience where Cunliffe was and that’s why Cunliffe did not know Shearer was in the back of the hall.

      You can check out the airplane arrival times.

      Or maybe the plane’s delay was a conspiracy organized by the Nats and carried out by the SIS.

  2. weka 2

    Nice write up micky, and great photo.

    btw, there are more protests happening than that list. A longer list is at the top of the FB page, maybe you could update the post?

    https://www.facebook.com/NotoGCSBBill

  3. karol 3

    Excellent report, micky. thanks.

    Dame Anne Slamond (note there’s a “d” on the end of her name), was excellent, as were all the speakers.

    I felt there was a contraction between Anne Salmond’s wonderful comment to remind John Key that,

    his is there to represent us, not to rule us

    and the lawyer saying that parliament is sovereign, and the only way we can get a government to change is position is via the parliamentary elections.

    It seems to me that this is a problem with our parliamentary system.

    • karol 3.1

      Ack – and it should be Salmond, not Slamond.

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

        did you mean “contradiction” instead of “contraction”?

        and the lawyer saying that parliament is sovereign, and the only way we can get a government to change is position is via the parliamentary elections.

        Of course, the way to get government to change position during a term is mass electoral pressure. See the Auckland rail link, as an example.

        • karol 3.1.1.1

          Yes. That, too, CV. Need an edit capability for my comments.

          Yes, public pressure helps, but it still leaves it to the government to make the ultimate decision.

      • mickysavage 3.1.2

        Eek. Have corrected thanks Karol.

    • tracey 3.2

      Karol… the alternatives are more frightening.

      its why strong and coherent opposition parties are crucial for the system to work.

    • dumrse 3.3

      Really ? You think you can change legislation whilst in opposition? It’s never going to happen.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.3.1

        😆 😆

        City Rail Link
        Mining on Schedule 4 land
        Anti-nuclear legislation

        this is a fun game, everyone can join in 😆 😆

      • karol 3.3.2

        I expect any government to take more notice of Kiwis’ input. Key’s government has been riding rough shod over democratic process – embedding clauses in legislation preventing a court challenge, abusing urgency, A LOT, over-riding the Bill of Rights, etc.

    • UglyTruth 3.4

      It seems to me that this is a problem with our parliamentary system.

      The notion that parliament is sovereign (in the sense of supreme power or authority) is atheistic. Atheism is central to parliament’s misrepresentation of the nature of the common law. Common law is closely related to the rule of law, which is what sets democracy apart from mob rule.

  4. Just do It 4

    Loot at the body language of Shearer. http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/07/25/live-video-stop-the-gcsb-bill-public-meeting-from-7pm/

    Arms folded, body stiff are a defensive signal. Shearer is uncomfortabel with the mixture of passion and intellectual insight that was evident. People like Shearer instinctivelly want to avoid engaging while the overall mood is highly charged. His preference would be to hold such discussions in a committee room.

    That is not how real politic happen. The people in that hall were looking for leadership when teh question 1 hr 15mins in was asked. Shearer failed to graps the opportunity. He twitched and shuffled. No amount of Fran Molds or Ian Frasiers can fix this.

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 4.1

      +100

    • weka 4.2

      Except he was blocked in and it was probably easier to get the microphone to Cunliffe who was in the front row. The judge may not have even known Shearer was there, although the camera focussed on Shearer well before it needed to and obviously was expecting him to say something.

      And looking at the body language, Shearer did step forward in readiness to speak, but the mike was handed to Cunliffe. Not much he could have done about that. Probably just as well (having Shearer be wishy washy and perhaps booed or heckled would have been bad for the meeting).

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 4.2.1

        The time Shearer should have stepped forward was the time of his arrival. How many more episodes of poor judgement is this guy going to be allowed?

        • weka 4.2.1.1

          Of course. And I can’t wait until Labour does somethign about the whole sorry mess. But saying that Shearer should have levitated over the crowd to the mike is daft.

        • AmaKiwi 4.2.1.2

          I was there. It would not have worked. Shearer and Parker stood along the wall midway into the hall. It was a GOOD location. They could both be seen by a lot of people.

          They did the best they could under the circumstances.

          The only better strategy I can think of is if they had two people from Shearer’s LEC hold seats for them in the front row. When they finally arrived they could have sat in the front.

          • Huginn 4.2.1.2.1

            Thanks for this, AmaKiwi.
            These attempts to divert attention away from the GCSB Bill by talking up a Labour Party putsch out of incidental trivia are mischevous trolling.

            • Saarbo 4.2.1.2.1.1

              I don’t agree Huginn, this episode highlights Shearer’s lack of political instinct, which from a Left point of view is of more importance than the GCSB Bill, the strength of the leader of Labour is absolutely critical to the future hopes of Labour and the Left.

              Shearer could still have stepped up while Cunliffe was speaking, and added a statement after Cunliffe. He needs to take every opportunity to speak and get exposure in front of people, but he lacks confidence. Shearer can’t think on his feet, a major problem for him…I’m not looking forward to the Leader debates next year. I also notice that he often has Parker with him, to make up for his lack of business and economic nous I suspect.

              Shearer is leader of Labour not because he is the best person to do the job, but because he has some very powerful support in the Labour caucus, support that seem to have suspicious motives, they certainly don’t have Labour’s best interests at heart.

              • weka

                If Shearer had forced his way to speak after Cunliffe I would have been pissed off. This wasn’t a place for Labour to grandstand. A question was asked, Cunliffe answered it, most likely because he was closest to the mike. End of. There was no reason for Shearer to speak, and all his other faults in at other times have nothing to do with it – sometimes he is just not doing something wrong. His plane was late for christ sake, was that political incompetence too?

                • Arfamo

                  Agreed. Cunliffe did the job better than Shearer would’ve anyway. Pithy, on point, linked it to Labour’s history of opposing oppressive legislation, just the right pitch for the audience. Let it go till Monday.

                • Anne

                  This wasn’t a place for Labour to grandstand. A question was asked, Cunliffe answered it, most likely because he was closest to the mike.

                  Well said weka. That is exactly what happened.

                  It beggars belief how obsessed and even paranoid some people – and TV3 in particular – have become over the Labour leadership. I know the layout of the Mt Albert Memorial Hall extremely well. Back in the 70s and part of the 80s, I helped organise numerous large Labour Party functions there. If Shearer was standing at the back of that hall or even at the side of it, there is no way he could have made it to the microphone in less than 5 mins. – especially given the huge crowd that was present.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Agreed weka – Labour should not be afraid of demonstrating the talent of its team, without every competent showing by some Labour MP automatically considered a potential new leadership coup.

                  And as others have said – this was not the place for a partisan push; it would have been most unwelcome in fact.

                • Saarbo

                  No I don’t accept that. To get into power, Labour need to use every opportunity to grandstand, particularly ones where they have a lot of their wavering supporters attending. Labour are an important component in all of this, if they don’t get back into power in 2014 then this legislation sticks, like all of the other horrendous legislation National are putting through.

                  I was in a good position (Seating at the rear of the hall) to see most people and Shearer was no where to be seen. Not good enough, He’s the leader, he should have organised to have seats saved up the front with Cunliffe, he could have put a call through to cunliffe at the airport when he discovered his flight would be late, he needs to get fucken organised, think on his feet. He’s just too laid back, too casual.

                  “and all his other faults in at other times have nothing to do with it”

                  Well actually they do, because accumulated up they show he is simply not up to the job, too casual, lacks confidence, lacks brain power…simply not good enough!

              • AmaKiwi

                @ Saarbo

                I was there. Your idea would not have worked. The moderator, a retired SUPREME COURT JUDGE, was keeping a tight lid on the proceedings. The only way Cunliffe got to speak was because someone asked what was going to happen if Labour came to power. Without that question Cunliffe would not have gotten a word in without looking like he was grandstanding.

                Cunliffe was fortunate to get an opening. He grabbed it and rode it for as much as he could get out of it. Cunliffe did not know Shearer was in the hall because Shearer and Parker arrived late. Shearer did the best thing he could: today he announced Labour would act early in its term to hold a full review and repeal much of the GCSB bill.

                Let’s move on.

    • tracey 4.3

      Karol… the alternatives are more frightening.

      its why strong and coherent opposition parties are crucial for the system to work.

    • tracey 4.4

      It seems that shearers career is that of a diplomat trying to find middle ground and help opposing factions see a bigger picture to achieve a common goal. Our parliamentary system isnt ready for this kind of a leader . Voters seem to still want the winner loser, ends justify the means leaders.

      nzers are getting the country they should have known they would get with national. Labour was right in 2008 that we couldnt trust them… but nats lying was too slick and well presented. Not saying labour dont lie but it appears they want to lie about the same stuff as nats and the nats have that ground.

      • AmaKiwi 4.4.1

        I am afraid we all getting taken in by slick salespeople from time to time. Hopefully the people have finally learned.

    • tracey 4.5

      [Duplicate copy removed – MS]

  5. tracey 5

    Sorry for duplicates but keeps saying not published.

    please dont play into others hands by making this about shearer. Its about democratic freedom which is way bigger than impotent leader squabbles

    • Huginn 5.2

      +1, expect a lot of sock puppet action on TS as the National/Act black propoganda steps up to divert attention from this very damaging adventure with national security

      • karol 5.2.1

        And now it seems the MSM (3 News tonight) will pick up on queries about Shearer’s leadership here in The Standard comments, and use it to say further questions are being asked, rather than the bigger issues discussed in the meeting last night.

    • UglyTruth 5.3

      I agree that this isn’t about Shearer. But IMO it is about security rather than freedom.

      People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both. ~ Benjamin Franklin.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 5.3.1

        At a superficial level, but only if you buy into the argument that such totalitarian measures increase security. There is surely enough evidence that they do not.

  6. Veutoviper 6

    Well – finally – Shearer has stated a position on the GCSB Bill as to what will happen if Labour wins the election. Did last night force the issue?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10903651

    In brief:

    – repeal the legislation but not until an independent inquiry had been carried out

    – the inquiry would be one of the first things Labour would do after coming into government.

    • weka 6.1

      Yeah, that’s better. And fits nicely with the GP, who have been calling for an inquiry. Labour and the GP having such common ground on such an important issue going into the election is promising.

      However, I find that I don’ trust Shearer, and see plenty of room there for the left and NZ to get shafted, depending on the parameters of the inquiry and who is appointed to do it.

      Where Shearer says they can’t repeal until after the review, because it would leave the GCSB without legal guidance, is that true? I thought it was an ammendment not a new Act. Can it not just be put back to the way it is now (and then a full review of security done)?

      • Veutoviper 6.1.1

        Yes, I was also feeling better, but also don’t necessarily trust Shearer and cynically wonder whether we would have heard anything from Shearer today if Cunliffe had not stepped up to the plate last night.

        Stuff have finally got their act together and posted an article – “Labour: We’ll dump GCSB Bill”.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8968737/Labour-We-ll-dump-GCSB-bill

        But, wait. What is missing from the Stuff article? Not one mention of Shearer!

        The article merely mentions “a Labour spokesman” ….

        (as an aside – not spokesperson, or spokeswoman)

        Cynicism is back.

        • Boadicea 6.1.1.1

          “The situation is at is has always been – Labour has committed to, when it gets in Government, to having a full and independent enquiry into the intelligence services . . . and any changes will flow out of that,” the spokesman said.

          That, to my way of thinking, is not a commitment to dump the legislation quickly. It is bureaucratic double-speak.

          *”independent” is also independent of the party and the caucus.
          *Shearer prevaricated last night. In his own electorate FFS!
          *GCSB is The biggest issue of the day.
          *A 400 person audience on his front door.
          *Leading opinion influencers.
          *And he didn’t have lines ready.
          *And he couldn’t think quickly on his feet.

          • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1

            *And he didn’t have lines ready.
            *And he couldn’t think quickly on his feet.

            Glad someone did.

  7. Olwyn 7

    I am more and more convinced that Shearer has been plonked into his role for two reasons, both arising from outside of the Labour Party. 1. To ensure that we don’t end up with a leader who refuses to sign the TPP, or who holds things up with too many quibbles, and 2. To change the culture of the Labour Party to fit in with a world in which a disenfranchised labour force is endlessly on the move, and only those from the middle class up vote. It is high time they took Anne Salmond’s words very very seriously; they are there to represent us, not to rule us.

    • weka 7.1

      Pretty hard to argue against what you are saying there Olwyn.

      KDC also said last night that the GCSB bill was in instruction handed from Washington.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 7.1.1

        …instructions from Washington…

        Now if that’s true, it raises an interesting question. As PM, if the American ambassador (or whoever) told me to spy on everyone because if I didn’t they were going to do it anyway, would I decide to at least try and retain some sort of local oversight or not?

        Do I doubt we have the resources to prevent them? Yep.
        Do I think public knowledge of that information would cause more harm than good? Um…
        If I tell the Americans “no”, apart from doing it anyway, what other steps will they take? Um…

        • weka 7.1.1.1

          If the US are going to do it anyway, they don’t need the GCSB bill passed to access that data. They need it for another reason or reasons. What’s the advantage to the US of the NZ govt having much broader spying powers on its own population?

          • One Anonymous Knucklehead 7.1.1.1.1

            Public relations. Let the allies think they’re autonomous etc. etc.

            PS: make it easier for politicians to pretend they’re in control.

            PPS: that’s enough hypothetical speculation for one day 🙂

          • karol 7.1.1.1.2

            Broader powers, involve the widespread scooping up of all metadata, via GCSB/Echelon systems.

            That includes all emails, phone calls etc that pass through NZ, including communications between NZ and any other country, including the US. Any communication identified in the metadata sweep, can be accessed in full, via these Echelon systems.

          • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1.3

            What’s the advantage to the US of the NZ govt having much broader spying powers on its own population?

            being a 2nd party intelligence partner to the US, the US tends to refrain from spying on NZers themselves. So it would be very helpful if the GCSB could fill in the gaps for them.

          • karol 7.1.1.1.4

            Look to the Kim Dotcom case. Why did the US need to have NZ intelligence and criminal justice systems involved? They apparently needed co-operation from NZ services to arrest KDC on NZ soil.

            • karol 7.1.1.1.4.1

              PS; GCSB is beyond public scrutiny, unlike the criminal justice system. Anything done by the spy services, the PM tends to say national security is at stake and he can’t reveal details..

              • Colonial Viper

                Secrecy and security classification used as a shield to hide undemocratic bad behaviour. Does a nation need to keep some secrets? Yes. But after say a 3 year period, an independent review should be permitted to release most details to the public.

          • yeshe 7.1.1.1.5

            Weka – how about the sole advantage and reason for this hasty and ugly bill is that all the things we fear within it have actually been going on against us for years .. now the panic is to make it all legal and proper before more of it comes out, urgent especially through Dotcom’s electrifying court appearances with an incisive and erudite judge and one of our best Queen’s Counsel.

            Waihopai, Himatangi etc have been running and delivering for years. This is why Key needed his school buddy running GCSB. It’s why he also needed a very GCSB-friendly Governor General .. think about it. Mateparae is potentially our only recourse if all else fails — and which side would he be on ? Very smelly.

            So why is Key in urgent panic now against the most august in the land ? I think it’s because if the truth comes out, he and his mates — not just toast but panko crumbs.

            And likewise, any price he had to pay to Dunne for his specious and poisonous little vote would have been worth it to Key.

            We should be very scared of where this ends if we cannot defeat it now.

            ( And a more positive afterword, it occurs to me this is very close the climate around the nuclear-free issue under Muldoon. The majority of the country wished for it, Muldoon was ignoring it. The courage of one back-bencher, the marvelous Marilyn Waring, crossed the floor to end the anti-democratic arrogance of that prime minister. Can we find such a one again ??)

            • Chooky 7.1.1.1.5.1

              +1

            • Arfamo 7.1.1.1.5.2

              The courage of one back-bencher, the marvelous Marilyn Waring, crossed the floor to end the anti-democratic arrogance of that prime minister. Can we find such a one again ??

              Nope. The best hope for that was Aaron Gilmore.

    • Chooky 7.2

      +1

  8. gobsmacked 8

    Here in New Zealand we often take our democratic freedoms for granted. We think they will always be there. We have a Bill of Rights which is supposed to protect our right to freedom of expression. What on earth could go wrong?

    I have a different view. I believe what Thomas Jefferson said – that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. There are times when we have to stand up for our rights, and the rights of our neighbours and friends, and indeed the rights of people we totally disagree with, or else these rights will begin to erode away.

    So where are the usual Key sycophants telling us why this is wrong?

    C’mon, you guys will disrupt any thread on any pretence, now you have a chance to be positive for once, to stand up for what you believe in.

    Are you honourable and reasonable enough to say … the bills’ opponents might just have a point?

    • gobsmacked 8.1

      And the invitation is still open …

    • AmaKiwi 8.2

      @ gobsmacked

      “So where are the usual Key sycophants telling us why this is wrong?”

      Maybe they realize the weapons of spying can be turned AGAINST THEM by a future Left government.

      Conservatives should be just as frightened as Lefties.

  9. Back up for the question I asked members of the panel at the anti-GCSB Bill public meeting last night – if they knew that private prosecutor Graham McCready, who has been successful in getting the DEFENDANT John Banks into Court, had also filed a private prosecution against Prime Minister John Key, for unlawful spying on Kim Dotcom?

    Here are the ‘Informations’ that Graham McCready has filed vs John Key in the Wellington District Court.

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/?p=179

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright
    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

  10. King Kong 10

    You know how you think this might be the thing?

    Its not.

    • gobsmacked 10.1

      @KK

      Please respond to my comment #8. Do you agree with the quote or not?

      • King Kong 10.1.1

        You could drop that quote into an argument about legalising dope therefore it is a bunch of bleeding heart faggotry.

        Must stand up for my democratic right not to have my terorist bomb plot foiled by spies.

        • Arfamo 10.1.1.1

          Translation: Bugger. I’d better say something really stupid again and hope it distracts you from my embarrassment about Key saying that and now getting caught out by his duplicity again.

          • King Kong 10.1.1.1.1

            Listen, the Press says that the recent changes made to the bill make it acceptable. The Herald says pretty good but just a couple of minor changes to go, yet you lot are talking like the Government has just legalised rape as a legitimate interogation technique for crime suspects.

            Its the massive hyperbole (demonstrated by cliched quotes about the crashing down of civil liberties) that makes the opposition to this bill look like a desperate political attack on the Governments popularity rather than any genuine legal concerns.

            You might think you are being clever but you really aren’t.

            • Arfamo 10.1.1.1.1.1

              You might think you are being clever but you really aren’t.

              I’ve had to cut the power to my irony detector before it clanged itself off the wall.

              • King Kong

                What kind of thickie needs an irony detector?

                • Arfamo

                  John Key.

                  • gobsmacked

                    KK, we’re trying to help you here.

                    Read the links in the original post before further embarrassment.

                    • King Kong

                      Looks like someones drunk the coolaid.

                    • gobsmacked

                      KK, do you really have no argument at all except the infantile? Do you have nothing at all with which to engage?

                      Did you oppose the EFA? If so, on what grounds?

                      Did you support Key’s 2007 speech? If so, on what grounds?

                      C’mon, you can be a grown-up when you want to. Debate and defend.

                    • King Kong

                      All of your righteous indignation aside, I will go back to my original point.

                      This isn’t it.

                      If you think this is going to bum fuck National like the EFA did Labour, then you are wrong. But don’t let that stop you crapping on about it.

            • yeshe 10.1.1.1.1.2

              KK .. they say petroleum jelly can be helpful removing either a finger or head stuck up one’s backside.

            • gobsmacked 10.1.1.1.1.3

              a desperate political attack on the Governments popularity

              by … David Rutherford, Marie Shroff, Anne Salmond, the Law Society, High Court judges, etc, etc …

              Why did they suddenly become “desperate”?

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                Everyone knows the Law Society is a cabal of slavering lefties – always on about “evidence” and “due process”. Fucking commies.

              • King Kong

                It is a well known fact that most of the people and institutions on that list are affiliates of Al Qaeda.

                • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                  That too.

                  • weka

                    Therefore we should take our democratic and legal guidance from the Press and the Herald.

                    • King Kong

                      Not at all. But it is a usefull yard stick with which to measure some of the hysteria that is going on here.

                    • gobsmacked

                      KK, you’ve made about 10 comments on here (and God knows how many on other threads) and yet you still can’t bring yourself to comment on the rights and wrongs of the issue.

                      Presumably you just can’t be bothered to read up on it. To have an informed opinion. To think.

                      You can’t defend the bill (you certainly haven’t tried to do so here), so you prefer not to think about it. It would be more honest if you just said so.

                    • weka

                      “But it is a usefull yard stick with which to measure some of the hysteria that is going on here.”

                      How?

                • tricledrown

                  KK pity Gscb i wasn’t around when Bernie Abbott was around!

            • Tim 10.1.1.1.1.4

              …… “Listen,” …….
              says it all really KK

            • AmaKiwi 10.1.1.1.1.5

              Make a note. When we get in power find out who this King Kong guy is and have the SIS take care of him.

              Still like this bill, Kong?

  11. tricledrown 11

    KK the right are getting worried by the backlash otherwise they wouldn’t be wasting time sending their lowlife apologists and bullies to troll on this site!

  12. Personally, I have a real problem with all those who purport to be opposed to ‘Nanny State’, who are not opposing this arguably far worse ‘BIG BROTHER STATE’ (on steroids)?

    Where are the Press Releases from the Libertarians, ACT on Campus and the like, opposing this proposed legislation, and supporting the upcoming rallies/marches around New Zealand tomorrow opposing the GCSB Bill, which is effectively being railroaded through Parliament with the slimmest possible majority?

    FYI – protests tomorrow, Saturday 27 July at 2pm, are being held in the following towns and cities around this supposed ‘democracy’ – New Zealand:

    I do hope to see all those Aucklanders who support the lawful rights of citizens to privacy, freedom of association and freedom of expression, and oppose arbitrary search and surveillance at Aotea Square, Auckland, 2pm.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption/ anti-privatisation’ campaigner
    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

    • AmaKiwi 12.1

      Well said, Penny.

      I am trying to make it clear to conservatives that this is just as much a threat to them.

      It’s like the old story about the Nazis: They came for the gypsies and I didn’t protest. They came for the Jews and I didn’t protest, etc.

      Would these Tories like to have these spying powers in the hands of a rampaging Left wing government?

  13. Sable 13

    If we had an entrenched Bill of Rights, this legislation would not see the light of day but we do not in spite of the efforts of Dr Geoffrey Palmer whilst in office. You can thank members of both National and Labour for that.

    I’m also less than impressed but not surprised by Labour’s less than emphatic renunciation of this travesty of a law. This is the main reason they lack support. Its not because Keys is winning hearts but Labour is instead turning people off politics by failing to offer a worthy alternative.

    My predication is this obscene law will pass and Labour will loose this election. I also predict we will eventually move into a similar position as that which exists in the UK where a alternative to Labour will be appear and pick up the voters that party has lost by moving too far to the right. Lets hope its sooner rather than later.

    • AmaKiwi 13.1

      I share your fear. That’s why I am sending out emails to everyone I know urging them to demonstrate tomorrow.

      After Saturday’s demonstration I will send hundreds more emails to my friends urging them to email National MPs demanding they represent the people and oppose this bill.

      I don’t know if it will work, but it’s worth trying. I will not go down without a fight.

  14. logie97 14

    Am I missing something here?

    On RNZ news at 5:00 this evening, “the MP who is in the centre of the leaking of the report is complaining that the enquiry went outside its brief…”

    This same MP, Dunne, is about to sign away on the surveillance powers of the same organisation.

    The man is a fool.

  15. karol 15

    Well, some good news about the MSM (I hope?). 3 News says it’ll be covering tomorrow’s demonstrations – so enough publicity has been generated to get their attention – hope it influences more people to go on the protests.

    • weka 15.1

      What was the 6 o’clock coverage like today Karol?

      • karol 15.1.1

        hey focused on Cunliffe speaking at the GCSB meeting, and used Jenny’s comment on TS, alleging that Shearer had yelled after Cunliffe spoke, as evidence of further dabte about Shearer’s leadership. They called Jenny’s comment a “pots”.

        They did show Cunliffe’s statements, and also the size of the meeting, plus some shots of Dotcom – some banners etc.

    • AmaKiwi 15.2

      Fantastic. Now everyone sign off The Standard and type an email and send it to every man, woman, and child in your address book urging them to come to tomorrow’s rallies.

      If we don’t turn out the numbers, our cause will be weakened.

  16. RedBaronCV 16

    Perhaps we should all revert to snail mail. Increase employment at the NZPO and the GCSB would have to sit there steaming them all open.

  17. AmaKiwi 17

    What can we do to stop the GCSB bill?

    I have sent at least 400 emails today, written and printed a leaflet for tomorrow’s rally, and spoken personally to a dozen or more people about tomorrow’s rally.

    That’s what WE need to do NOW.

    After tomorrow’s rallies let’s discuss our next plan of action. My plan is to get all my friends to flood National MPs with emails to delay the bill or represent us by having a genuine conscience vote.

    Aside from Cover-up Key, no National MPs stands to gain from this bill. There are no jobs for mates, no tax cuts for constituents, no public works projects . . . NOTHING.

    If we can arouse the public, I think we can still stop this bill. Less talk and more action.

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