Gilbert calls out Nat “tribalists” who continued to back the lies

Written By: - Date published: 2:07 pm, October 4th, 2017 - 67 comments
Categories: national, useless - Tags: , , , , ,

Outspoken sociologist Dr Jarrod Gilbert has written a piece that needed writing for The Herald – Jarrod Gilbert: Continuing curse of blinkered believers

I need to talk about political tribalism, this phenomenon that so often mocks the principles that uphold our democracy while chipping away at its foundations.

Such an unwavering devotion to one political party means nothing done by that party can ever offend the diehard supporter. Any action that threatens to rattle a devotee’s true belief is responded to with the rationalisation that the sneaks on the other side would have done ten times worse given the same circumstances.

When this happens objective notions of right and wrong vanish, and what is left is a sickening reverence.

While I could look at the hardcore Green voters who lashed out at the media for the demise of Meteria Turei, without question the most egregious example was the defence by blinkered National supporters of Steven Joyce’s $11.9b fiscal hole claim. One such supporter was Bill English, a man who to this point I have only ever written positively about.

Whether of not Joyce set out to cause mischief, or he simply misread the books and embarrassment and pigheadedness meant he was unable to back down (the latter theory I favour), we’re all aware that a swath of leading economists came out and debunked what he said.

What did Joyce do? Deny, deny, attack, deny, deny. And, of course, many of his people defended it, made excuses, or misrepresented the evidence.

All good people should have called that nonsense out in unison.

To the tribalists who didn’t I ask this: if Labour had made the same accusation against National and not a single economist supported it, would you have reacted the same way?

No. Of course not. And that’s what defines you as a moron.

What ugliness awaits us now that this brazen low has been established? Where is our ambition for a democracy that exists on open debate and the exchange of ideas?

Wherever our allegiances fall we must not allow ourselves to be the foolish. The integrity of our system must stand before our desire for our team to win. Let us be a country that exhibits the best in politics and doesn’t embrace the very worst.

Hey Nat voters – how do you justify voting for the party of dirty politics and lies?

67 comments on “Gilbert calls out Nat “tribalists” who continued to back the lies ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Ed 1
    4 October 2017 at 2:20 pm

    Wayne has already justified the lies.
    To quote him, Gilbert is a sore loser…..
    thereby proving the point of the article!

    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04102017/#comment-1395788

  2. Mickey Boyle 2
    4 October 2017 at 2:56 pm

    Yes, the left have never lied about anything……hypocrisy. Of course the Nats lied but lets not try and take the moral high ground because the left has lied too, the lies may not have been as dramatic and confronting as the Nats but a lie is still a lie.

    • DoublePlusGood 2.1
      4 October 2017 at 3:14 pm

      Ah, so it’s ok for National to compulsively and continuously lie about basically everything because Labour have occasionally lied about some things in the past.

      Good to know that you basically have no morals whatsoever.

      • Wayne 2.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 4:48 pm

        On the specific issue of $11 billion hole Steven Joyce explained his reasoning right from the get go. It was clearly stated the calculation was based on the fact it was not credible for Labour to have zero new spending in their 2019 and 2020 budgets.

        It was obviously his opinion that Labour would have $3.7 billion new spending in each of those years. But that was made perfectly clear at the time. I personally think $2 billion per year would have been a more appropriate figure, given that Labour had made provision for extra spending in health and education. The $2 billion would have been extra DOC spending, more on restorative justice, more on foreign aid, more on civil servants salaries.

        People may disagree with with Joyce’s opinion, but an opinion is not a lie.

        As for Jarrod Gilbert, well his columns annoy me more than anyone elses. It is not so much what he says, but how he says it. Trying to seriously compare English and Joyce with Nixon is the realm of fantasy. For a comparison while I may not agree with Rachel Stewart, at least her columns are a stimulating (as opposed to annoying) read.

        • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.1
          4 October 2017 at 4:55 pm

          “It was obviously his opinion …”
          Indeed. It. Was.
          Facts, opinions? Who can say which is more real? Not Wayne.

          • rhinocrates 2.1.1.1.1
            4 October 2017 at 5:11 pm

            Hey, they’re facts – alternative facts!

          • Ian 2.1.1.1.2
            4 October 2017 at 8:39 pm

            Jarrod Gilbert is anti police,and his research is based on having a close relationship with the gangs supplying Methamphetamine to your kids ,and probably a good percentage of the commenters on this blog . I judge people on the company they keep.

            • Shona 2.1.1.1.2.1
              4 October 2017 at 8:50 pm

              @Ian Who the fuck are you to judge me????Arrogant twat.
              Gilbert’s research is invaluable. I realise his work is way above your reading age but here’s a heads up some of us manage to raise offspring who do not use P. And never would. P is for the desperate souls whose primary drug habit is usually alcohol. Or for those who came from families where alcohol consumption is a daily occurrence. You would know that if you could comprehend Gilbert’s work!

            • miravox 2.1.1.1.2.2
              4 October 2017 at 11:14 pm

              “I judge people on the company they keep.”

              And yet, Ian, here you are. Keeping company with people who you think “a good percentage of” are meth addicts.

            • tracey 2.1.1.1.2.3
              5 October 2017 at 8:08 am

              Should we judge parents who vote for govts that repeatedly lie? I mean, what morality must they be modelling for their children? Lies are rewarded when they benefit you kids?

        • McFlock 2.1.1.2
          4 October 2017 at 5:00 pm

          It might initially have been his opinion, but when his opinion has been demonstrated repeatedly ,and in ever-decreasing word counts, and even in pictures, to be at odds with reality and he still stands by it… well, one must either question his intelligence or his truthfulness.

          • rhinocrates 2.1.1.2.1
            4 October 2017 at 5:10 pm

            But not his truthiness.

            • Once was Tim 2.1.1.2.1.1
              4 October 2017 at 6:26 pm

              I reckon Wayne is the next up and coming MSM sage. Michelle Boag – watch out! you’ve got competition.
              I might go trout fishing – at least I can eat ’em

              • rhinocrates …
                4 October 2017 at 10:03 pm

                Depends on which river they’ve been swimming in. Maybe one of the pristine, clean rivers that flow on the satellite of Planet Key, Wayne’s World. Apparently that has proper toilets.

        • Anne 2.1.1.3
          4 October 2017 at 5:25 pm

          On the specific issue of $11 billion hole Steven Joyce explained his reasoning right from the get go.

          It…. was…. a…. lie….from….woe… to… go.

        • Andre 2.1.1.4
          4 October 2017 at 5:28 pm

          Wayne, I just love the way you blindly keep demonstrating Gilbert’s main point over and over again.

        • Stuart Munro 2.1.1.5
          4 October 2017 at 5:29 pm

          Blake’s chestnut “A truth that’s told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent.” used to suffice for politicians – but Joyce thought he could do better. He couldn’t.

          • tracey 2.1.1.5.1
            5 October 2017 at 8:11 am

            Except 46% voted for his party

            • Brigid 2.1.1.5.1.1
              5 October 2017 at 3:35 pm

              No. The election day count showed less than a third of registered voters voted for his party.

              • tracey …
                5 October 2017 at 3:42 pm

                46% of voters didnt vote National? Cos in reality it doesnt matter if registered voters did not vote cos they have abdicated a right to form part of any discussion about mandates or no? Or have I confused what you mean?

                • McFlock …
                  5 October 2017 at 4:05 pm

                  lol depends if you mean a mandate that reflects endorsement or a mandate that simply is least unpopular.

                  What if only a third of people vote? Is the majority winner goven a mandate to rule? Bureaucratically, yes, but in an everyday sense of the word it rings hollow.

                  But maybe that was part of the hope – if the nats behaved disgracefully and made enough voters think that all parties are liars and profiteers, so enough lefties bow out in disgust that the vote is skewed.

                  I think turnout might have been up on last time, so if Joyce’s lie was malice from the start rather than stupidity, it failed.

        • marty mars 2.1.1.6
          4 October 2017 at 5:40 pm

          Lol you’re a useful gnat idiot Wayne – Joyce and English and you know the porkies well. Talk about losing respect lol

        • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.7
          4 October 2017 at 5:49 pm

          Wayne said:
          “People may disagree with with Joyce’s opinion, but an opinion is not a lie.”

          There it is. Was Joyce’s claim presented as his “opinion”?
          Did Joyce say, ” In my opinion”?
          Did Bill English say, “In Steven Joyce’s opinion…”
          Was it made clear that the “11.7 billion dollar hole” was opinion ?
          No
          NO
          NO NO NO NO!
          Therein lies the BIG LIE.
          There were, of course, plenty of lesser lies.

          • marty mars 2.1.1.7.1
            4 October 2017 at 5:57 pm

            Hang on – Wayne has studied this in great detail. How could he possibly be so far out in right field – to be disagreeing and calling respected economists wrong. There must be more to it surely, there must be a rational explanation for this massive discrepancy and his intransigent behaviour. What is it? Maybe when his memoir is published the REAL truth will put.

            • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.7.1.1
              4 October 2017 at 6:06 pm

              You mean, Steven, and Bill and Wayne were right ???
              How could we have been so thick???
              Steven’s opinion is to be trusted from now on.
              ‘Cause Wayne said.

        • Pete 2.1.1.8
          4 October 2017 at 6:35 pm

          Congratulations Wayne, this is the biggest lot of piffle I’ve read today.

          You find Gilbert’s columns annoying? Do you think your level of annoyance is more than mine about the lying of English and Joyce?

          Or your level of annoyance is deeper than my absolute disgust at their behaviour and then people like you making excuses and prevaricating about it?

        • Ankerrawshark 2.1.1.9
          4 October 2017 at 8:14 pm

          Wayne do you admit the 11 billion dollar hole was a lie? At very best a mistake that was not retracted? Dead cat strategy?

          That is the issue Gilbert was writing about

        • Gareth 2.1.1.10
          4 October 2017 at 10:07 pm

          It was in fact, a dead cat: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97215740

          Even now we’re arguing about the dead cat instead of other stuff that really matters like what those taxes people are so scared of are meant to be spent on: Housing, health, education. All the stuff that’s been underfunded for years.

          Show me an economist who agreed with Stephen Joyce… surely one of them could follow his reasoning and arrive at the same opinion.

        • tracey 2.1.1.11
          5 October 2017 at 8:07 am

          ” It was clearly stated the calculation was based on the fact it was not credible for Labour to have zero new spending in their 2019 and 2020 budgets. ”

          Bill English and Nats ran zero budgets in 2014 and 2015 Wayne. Was that credible, or not?

      • Mickey Boyle 2.1.2
        4 October 2017 at 6:02 pm

        I do have morals, thats what I was trying to say, both sides of politics lie, to say its all purely one sided is in fact a lie and disengenuous, open your eyes, we need better standards from all those you supposedly serve the public, and that includes local government also.

    • Ed 2.2
      4 October 2017 at 3:21 pm

      Can you provide an example please?
      I believe you are tinkering with moral relativism.

    • Robert Guyton 2.3
      4 October 2017 at 3:51 pm

      “Of course the Nats lied”
      QFT

    • tracey 2.4
      5 October 2017 at 8:05 am

      So does that mean you voted neither National or Labour or voted for National and just proved Gilberts point.

      I havent voted for Labour since they misused taxpayer money with the “card”. It took me a while to turn but that and their disability/sickness process in 2007 were the last nails in the coffin.

      What would stop you voting for poor behaviour?

  3. esoteric pineapples 3
    4 October 2017 at 3:20 pm

    “While I could look at the hardcore Green voters who lashed out at the media for the demise of Meteria Turei,”

    I suspect this sentence was put in so that the author doesn’t look too biased rather than being a fair comment.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1
      4 October 2017 at 7:08 pm

      Yep. There was no need for it.

      But, then, he does say that he’d been glowingly reporting on Blinglish for-ever. Kinda shows his bias.

    • tracey 3.2
      5 October 2017 at 8:30 am

      See, I understand that people do not like that Turei lied/broke the law about the people living with her. I dont understand why they hated her lie with so much more vehemence than lies/law breaking by highly paid Cab Ministers. People like Bennett who broke the law to silnce beneficiaries, Collins who broke the law resulting in a man getting death threats, Smith abused his position of power to help a friend, almost every kiwi who did a cash job or paid cash for a job.

  4. Sparky 4
    4 October 2017 at 3:31 pm

    in my opinion this is hardly a measure of the extent of the problems associated with National and I can’t say I feel what happened to Meteria Turei was justified in any way shape or form.

    Much of the MSM in my opinion are a big part of the problem mostly backing every move the far right makes and then irony of ironies complain when it all turns sour.

    To my mind a moron is someone who blithely reads, watches and listens to their banter without scrutiny and then believes they are “informed”.

    • Ed 4.1
      4 October 2017 at 3:48 pm

      The msm is in the front set of trenches for the corporations, fighting their war for them.

  5. Keith 5
    4 October 2017 at 3:39 pm

    “Whether of not Joyce set out to cause mischief, or he simply misread the books and embarrassment and pigheadedness meant he was unable to back down (the latter theory I favour)”.

    “Mischief”…..oh… my ….God!

    From that massively ridiculous understatement and what looks like a new word to replace lie and or 100% pure bullshit, Dr Gilbert deserves the National Party’s supreme Joseph Goebbels award.

    Cue rapturous applause!

    • Ed 5.1
      4 October 2017 at 3:46 pm

      Sounds like the nonsense/lies Farrar spouts when he is ‘fomenting happy mischief’ on Kiwiblog.

  6. WILD KATIPO 6
    4 October 2017 at 3:54 pm

    Yes !,… a message cast in gold !

    Tribalism ,… equals blinkers and blindfolds .

    Time to stop your messing around , better think of your future ,…

    the specials – a message to you rudy ‘lyrics in description’ – YouTube

  7. geoff 7
    4 October 2017 at 4:45 pm

    Are they ‘believers’ or just competitive, grasping and stubborn?

  8. Stuart Munro 8
    4 October 2017 at 5:20 pm

    Gnats are, not to put too fine a point on it, obtuse. Their intellectual development reached its peak in Bolger, and it’s been all downhill ever since.

    But it’s their moral decay that is of greatest concern, never before were they as uniformly dishonest or as generally corrupt.

  9. Ant 9
    4 October 2017 at 5:23 pm

    Aside from the moral issue the trouble with being economical with the truth, especially when those we “look up to” are perpetrators, is the slippery slide into a world governed by impression rather than fact, – in which those with the biggest bank balances will eagerly deploy the most sought after spin organisations. We will move increasingly into a world of shadows, illusion and subtly woven deceit.

    It is horrifying to contemplate the consequences. Greed amongst the powerful would bring high-end competition amongst the few and helpless inequality amongst the millions.

    Against this backdrop (and the current taste for alternative facts and false truth), actual truth takes on an almost mystical quality of utter desirability, – an all-compelling motivation to ‘do the right thing’ to honour the highest and best that is in humankind.

    • WILD KATIPO 9.1
      4 October 2017 at 5:29 pm

      … ” being economical with the truth ” …

      In other words, – outright dishonest bastards .

      • Stuart Munro 9.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 5:55 pm

        Or, as deepsea fishermen are wont to describe them: “Full of shit heaps of shit”.

        “Listen, you full of shit heap of shit…” they say.

  10. mosa 10
    4 October 2017 at 6:47 pm

    All National voters are MORONS and will believe …..anything the National party tell them.

  11. Whispering Kate 11
    4 October 2017 at 8:22 pm

    I read Dr Jarrod Gilbert’s piece in the Herald and I absolutely agree with him. Devoted followers of National and Act blindly follow their leaders and their policies and will make excuses no matter how absurd and untrue they are about the corruption etc that goes on.

    Even serious stuff that has gone down with my own family, and friends who have known us for 40 years, knowing that we are so disturbed and worried to death over how WINZ is treating a family loved one, they still are trying to find excuses for them (WINZ), it hurts like buggery that people you think are friends can still see good in this caretaker government and try to make good the shit they are perpetuating on an every day occurrance.

    Tribalism is alive and well in this country – these ardent followers of neo-liberalism remind me of a kid having a tantrum, placing their hands over their ears and saying “I don’t want to know, I don’t want to know” – it’s pathetic we have such a loss of critical thinking in this country.

    • WILD KATIPO 11.1
      4 October 2017 at 10:47 pm

      This National government IS SHIT and is the last in the line of 33 years of bullshit neo liberal governments, …. however , … the tide is now obviously starting to turn , – even here in NZ , who , are traditionally a little behind the global pace. But change IT WILL and this is what we are starting to witness.

      It wont be long now.

      Fuck them and their neo liberal filth.

      Sick and tired of hearing all the crap that goes on under them all.

      They are total bullshit.

      New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
      http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

    • tracey 11.2
      5 October 2017 at 8:33 am

      Kia kaha

  12. Ross 12
    5 October 2017 at 7:11 am

    Wayne says “it was not credible for Labour to have zero new spending in their 2019 and 2020 budgets”.

    It’s apparent that Wayne isn’t an economist and has no aspirations to become one.

    In 2010, NZ’s GDP was US$146.6 billion while in 2016 it was US$185 billion, an increase of 26%. As a result, tax revenue collected by the government increased. In 2009/10, core Crown revenue was $56.8 billion; in 2015/16 it was $76.1 billion, an increase of 34%.

    In other words, spending that the government may not have been able to afford in 2010 may have been affordable in 2016. Labour – like any political party – expects tax revenue to rise over time. Non-zero new spending and avoiding borrowing are entirely consistent. Steven Joyce isn’t a complete moron – he would know that. He just thought it would be a good idea to keep that information from the public while trying to scare the shit out of them.

    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/2009/execsumm/b09-execsumm.pdf
    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/revenue

    • tracey 12.1
      5 October 2017 at 8:34 am

      And ignores the zero budgets of English in 2014 and 2015 which did not lead to the sky falling

  13. Pete 13
    5 October 2017 at 11:02 am

    Wayne hasn’t come back. You there Wayne?

    • tracey 13.1
      5 October 2017 at 2:53 pm

      He doesnt really respond. He tends to make a speech and uses the reply button to further it.

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