Gluckman’s apology for National’s science package shredded

Written By: - Date published: 7:57 pm, May 13th, 2010 - 36 comments
Categories: science - Tags: , , , , , ,

Peter Gluckman is easily one of New Zealand’s most over-rated, under-examined public figures. Although little more than a corporate frontman out to extract as many public dollars for private interests as he can lay his hands on, because he’s called ‘Sir’ and he’s all ‘sciencey’ a lot of the tripe he spews goes unchecked. Well, not this time.

As Chief Science Advisor to the National Government, Gluckman helped design National’s latest science package – a package that’s less than half of what the last Labour administration pledged to science funding, and one that’s in large part corporate welfare at the expense of public funding of public research institutions. Have a listen to Sean Plunkett showing up Gluckman and his package for what they really are, or read Gordon Campbell’s analysis of just how bad the package actually is.

36 comments on “Gluckman’s apology for National’s science package shredded”

  1. RedLogix 1

    Sadly sprout this is a real issue; with real consequences.

    Which is why this thread will be virtually ignored and the flim flam over Key’s ‘cannibalism’ duffery will get over a hundred comments.

    Sometimes I wonder if we simply deserve what we get.

    • grumpy 1.1

      Including, at least 5 from your mate Sprout and even more from you.

      I agree with your summary of Gluckman though, a scientific lightweight and hired mouthpiece.

    • Armchair Critic 1.2

      Which is why this thread will be virtually ignored
      Untrue – the crowd has gone wild.

  2. indeed it is a very real issue, and indeed it will get next to no coverage.

    i wonder too, but in my stronger moments i still think we don’t deserve this

  3. if you’d actually worked with the man, rather than just read his self-authored bio, you’d have some idea of what you’re talking about. but instead you’re just quoting Gluckman on Gluckman. 😆
    your pseudonym does however accurately reflect the sophistication of your thinking, well done.

    [lprent: The comment you were responding to has been removed to spam. It was from someone who has been previously permanently banned for very poor behaviour. Now with a new IP. ]

    • Neil 3.1

      if you could give us your bio sprout then we might be able to make some comparisons.

      afterall, world renowned scientist and science entreperneur vs anonymous blogger – difficult choice.

  4. Armchair Critic 4

    Nice attempted diversion
    500 papers, numerous awards and international recognition don’t make it okay for him to be an apologist for what the government are doing.
    Can you address the issues –
    1. National’s funding of R&D is much lower than the funding available just a few years ago.
    2. National plan to convert the funding into a business subsidy, because the private sector steadfastly refuse to invest in R&D.
    3. Peter Gluckman is a paid apologist for 1 and 2.
    [lprent: The comment you were responding to has been removed to spam. It was from someone who has been previously permanently banned for very poor behaviour. Now with a new IP. ]

  5. Galeandra 5

    areyouretarded? Because he’s got a hand up his bum?

    [lprent: The comment you were responding to has been removed to spam. It was from someone who has been previously permanently banned for very poor behaviour. Now with a new IP. ]

  6. Neil 6

    500 papers, numerous awards and international recognition don’t make it okay for him to be an apologist for what the government are doing.

    no it wouldn’t but since you are the one alleging “apologist” then perhaps you could shed some light as to why your opinion should carry more weight than some one who has spent their career working in science and has made very significant achievements for NZ in the fields of health and genetics and science and business.

    • Armchair Critic 6.1

      “…perhaps you could shed some light as to why your opinion should carry more weight…”
      Listen to the first link in the post, read the second, make up your own mind. If Gordon Campbell’s article doesn’t convince you, and if Sean Plunkett (who seems to be a minor National cheerleader these days) assisting Peter Gluckman to tie himself into knots is not enough, then I doubt anything I write will work for you.
      How much weight my opinion carries is irrelevant – are you incapable of assessing arguments on their merits? Or do you instinctively trust the authority figure with the white coat over his suit and tie?

  7. Neil 7

    since neither Campbell nor Plunket know anything about science and science funding then I don’t see why their opinons should carry any weight.

    whereas Gluckman has forged a very sucessful career in those fields.

    so, yes I have weighed up the respective arguments.

    • Pascal's bookie 7.1

      “so, yes I have weighed up the respective arguments.”

      Not in that comment you didn’t. You just dismissed Campbell and Plunket because of who they are. You do realise that’s not weighing up their arguments right?

      • Neil 7.1.1

        what arguments do they make? I read and listended and can’t see anything that makes the slightest sense.

        whereas I have read the two speeches Gluckman has recently made and he makes a great deal of sense which is not much of a surprise since he really does know what he’s talking about.

        • Armchair Critic 7.1.1.1

          what arguments do they make?
          They argue that while there is a small increase in funding for R&D this year, the total funding is less than a few years ago. That’s not a scientific argument, and Peter Gluckman dealt with it poorly.
          They also argue that the funding is applied as a subsidy to business and that this might not be the most direct way of using the money. Again, not a scientific argument, and again Peter Gluckman dealt with it poorly.
          If your reading and listening skills didn’t pick this up then that says more about you than Messrs Campbell and Plunkett, and Dr Gluckman. Alternatively, you are deliberately ignoring what was said, which makes me inclined to believe you are a partisan hack.

          • Neil 7.1.1.1.1

            the insults don’t do anything to dissuade me from my conclusion that Gluckman is more informed on the issue than Campbell, Plunket and various anonymous bloggers.

            [lprent: What insults? I’m jealous of my prerogatives, so after I read your comment, I went looking for people encroaching on moderator territory. We’re the only ones allowed to seriously insult people around here. I didn’t find any such breaches.

            Ok, so let me summarize your position as a non-pseudonymous writer. You’re a idiot who seems to think that reducing projected increases in R&D spending by more than a half indicates success in the field of R&D funding? Moreover you’re stupid enough to waste my time by claiming a breach of the policy that I failed to find. It appears that you did this purely because you don’t have any substantive argument (and incidentally I could make one on your side without even stretching).

            I’ll give you some free advice. This is a moderated blog. Don’t waste my time by calling attention to things that you think may need moderation, but don’t. ]

            • Armchair Critic 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Indeed – what you think and why you think it is very clear, at least as regards the subject of this post.

            • Jenny 7.1.1.1.1.2

              Pardon me for jumping in here Lynne, but I recall, that recently someone calling themselves Noodles, likened the Maori Party to fascists and was supported for doing it.

              Possibly because they were referring to a comment from someone who considers themselves to be left of Labour, this was allowed.

              In my humble opinion the right get away with so much, because the left repeatably hobble themselves with sectarianism. Which in the MMP environment is a particularly self-destructive vice.

              • lprent

                ….likened the Maori Party to fascists and was supported for doing it.

                What gave you that idea? Noodles didn’t compare to fascists, you did that. What I said was that she/he/it had a point in that the MP and BNP are both culturally based parties while I was responding to you.

                I didn’t state what my view was, because I haven’t formed one. What I supported was that she/he/it was able to make a valid point. You can argue against it. But you can’t argue against letting it through. I generally don’t stifle debate unless things are are verging over into flamewars that make this place hard to manage. Read the policy. This is a forum for wide debate, for people to agree to disagree, and that means people must be able to present viewpoints. You presented yours. I pointed out the flaws in your argument as I saw them. Noodles didn’t present an arguement.

                …from someone who considers themselves to be left of Labour

                I have no idea who noodles is. I think that is the first time I’ve seen them comment.

                Incidentally, my general position is that I’m probably to the right of Labour on many things, left on some things, probably more supportive to maori aspirations (for reasons quite different to the MP) and distinctly greener on others. I’m not much into monolithic block positions. I make up my own mind, decide what I will expend effort to support or work against, and I’m into debating pros and cons of different viewpoints to arrive at that.

                In this case, Neil said he’d been insulted. So I popped in to see, found that he hadn’t been, and gave him a insulting blast for wasting my moderating time.

            • Neil 7.1.1.1.1.3

              you might not consider “partisan hack” and insult but I don’t consider it to be a particularly brilliant argument. Especially considering I had not praised or criticised the science funding policies of any political party.

              then you call me an “idiot” and “stupid” which according to your rules just fine.

              I only commented to lend support to someone else whose comments you have deleted and since those comments are gone you can delete mine as well.

              • lprent

                1. The person whose comments were deleted has been previously banned for stalking and identity theft of other people on the net. Basically for being an obsessional nutter. Perhaps that says something about who you like to support?

                2. I don’t care particularly what people call each other within some quite broad limits. I care if there is a point made in the comment that justifies the ‘insult’. Pointless insults (that aren’t made by a moderator) are a warning/banning offence. In this case, you had people saying (pretty politely for here) that you were full of crap, saying why, and suggesting reasons for your attitude. I’d suggest that you toughen up – it can get a lot worse.

                3. Moderators are outside the rules. Essentially we hate having to intervene – it takes time and effort. Personally, I operate on the principle of sadistic levels of torment as a general mechanism to encouraging people *not* to attract my moderating attention. Irish just gives long bans. But generally it’d be safe to say that it is your job not to attract our moderating attention. It is your problem – not ours.

                4. You attracted my attention (and I pretty much scan every comment) by claiming you were being insulted or abused. That is something that I look at in case it drops into a flame war.

                5. You have just wasted some more of my time. Read the policy and learn how not to attract my moderating attention.

              • Neil

                You have just wasted some more of my time.

                That’s not something I’m concerned about, perhaps you should “toughen up”.

                Perhaps that says something about who you like to support?

                Since I was responding to the posts here without being privy to what ever grievances you have with others how would I know what they are like?

                But since you choose to attack me on that while having removed the evidence by which others could judge I would prefer it if you deleted all my posts.

              • Armchair Critic

                With all the respect I can gather, Neil, I offer this advice – quit while you are behind.

              • Neil

                With all the respect I can gather…

                I spent the morning on a project promoting NZ science overseas, I feel I’ve earned a bit of entertainment.

              • Armchair Critic

                …I feel I’ve earned a bit of entertainment.
                OK, best of luck, then.

        • Pascal's bookie 7.1.1.2

          Well if you can’t follow the fairly simple criticisms being made then I guess it makes sense you would reach the conclusion you have.

    • Armchair Critic 7.2

      so, yes I have weighed up the respective arguments
      Well, you’ve made a decision. And it appears you have made it based on the name, not the points made. Which is understandable.

  8. Perhaps Neil you could address the points raised in Gordon Campbell’s column and comment on why he is wrong. Right now your argument seems to be “Gluckman good the others do not understand”.

    You will have to do better than that.

    I am sure that Gluckman would prefer that an argument be evidence based.

  9. Not perhaps the most humble person you’ll ever meet, but Dr Gluckman is a serious scientist. There is no doubt that the latest science funding is a poor second to that proposed by the previous government, but that can be said without the gratuitous attack on his scientific career.

  10. gingercrush 10

    A rather strange thread. Why not focus the attack on how much the funding is and the model of that funding instead of attacking Peter Gluckman. IMO you could have made a perfectly reasonable post without the first paragraph. Also what you said in regards to Peter Gluckman could easily apply to Selwyn Pallet who has far more corporate interest than Gluckman. And for whom Goff has openly stated about the relationship between the Fabian Society and Labour. If you were intent on attacking Gluckman then do so as Gordon Campbell did. That way you don’t sound like a wanker.

    But lets be honest. If National’s is somehow corporate welfare then what the hell was Labour’s R&D policy that was more than twice the size? You also ignore that previously National has opened up more scholarship opportunities etc and have more here. As for whether the policy is too commercial as some have criticised it as. Surely that is where Research and Development needs to go. We’ve been told for years that we’re good at research but that we haven’t been able to commercialise that research. If thats the case and its an argument that both the left and right have shared. Then surely putting research money where it can be commercialised is the way to go. That’s why Labour’s policy also was far more focused on commercialising research and development.

  11. tc 11

    Yet another example of the Nats ability to get what they want by using a ‘friendly’ go to person…….and when they can’t you get eCan and the likes.

    Gluckman’s probably been shown the ‘be nice to the gov’t…..or pension’ option…..poor bloke.

  12. Nemesis 12

    Labour’s R&D funding was never affordable. When you’ve got a decade of deficits in front of you you don’t go splashing money around willy nilly. Have labour promised to restore the fast forward fund? Where is the money coming from?

    Labour is dreaming again.

    • the sprout 12.1

      guess it depends on whether you’re genuinely ambitious for NZ.
      or just talking any old shit you think people might want to hear.

      • Nemesis 12.1.1

        Oh you mean like the knowledge wave, closing the gaps, or getting to the top half of the OECD by 2010. Good point. Under Labour there was no growth in the productive sector in the last five years of government. Recession for five years. All the growth was in government and property. Nice one labour.

  13. Dreadnaught 13

    Peter Gluckman is far from a false scientist; he’s just a poor politician. You guys might not get this down in Wellington, but Gluckman is a world-leading scientist – he’s a founding director of the Liggins Institute here in AKL. This institute does world-leading scientific research; stuff that maybe one or two other institutes (US, Swiss) can do (not easy stuff – they do a lot of mathmatical modelling for biomedicine which is, you’ll have to take my word on it, tough, tough stuff).

    Yes, in being the cheif scientific advisor for Jonkey, he is advancing his personal interests e.g. the importance of the Liggins Institute, future science advisory posts overseas etc etc (but try and tell me that Jonkey isn’t just doing a stint as PM to get a well-paid ambassadorship in Barbados).

    And, yes, I really don’t understand what he was going on about when he said it’s an exciting time for science in NZ when clearly this new scientific funding is well less than the old Labour tax credits.

    Buuuut, the one thing that he has got dead right, and the one thing that Jonkey has listened to, is the allocation of the watered-down funding – setting aside 9 millon for highly-paid post doctoral research positions is the right way of getting the best brains into the country (or retaining the best brains). This is the way Singapore does it ($90k salary +$40k research funds per annum) and they have been wildly successful in turning around science in Singapore. It will pay off.

    So Gluckman, excellent allocation of (unfortunately meagre) scientific funds; bad idea trying to play politician with Sean Plunket…

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  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Democracy – I Don’t Think So
    So, those who “know best” have again done their worst. While constantly claiming to be the guardians of democracy and the constitution, and respecters of the 2016 referendum result, diehard Remainers (who have never brought themselves to believe that their advice could have been rejected) have striven might and main ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Government says it will now build just one really nice home
    Following publication of this article, the Ministry has requested it to be noted that this supplied image is not necessarily representative of what the final house will look like, and it “probably won’t be that nice.” As part of today’s long-anticipated reset of the Government’s flagship KiwiBuild policy, Housing Minister ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Imperialism and your cup of coffee
    Over the next week or two we will be running three synopses of parts of the opening chapter of John Smith’s Imperialism in the 21st Century (New York, Monthly Review Press, 2016).  The synopsis and commentary below is written by Phil Duncan. Marx began Capital not with a sweeping historical ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Still juking the stats
    The State Services Commission and Ombudsman have released another batch of OIA statistics, covering the last six months. Request volumes are up, and the core public service is generally handling them within the legal timeframe, though this may be because they've learned to extend rather than just ignore things. And ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Hard News: Time for a New Deal: 25 years on
    In 1994, I was editing an ambitious street mag called Planet, from a fabled office at at 309 Karangahape Road. The thirteenth issue of the magazine was published in the winter of that year and its cover embodied a particularly ambitious goal: the end of cannabis prohibition.I wanted to do ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Not impressed
    KiwiBuild was one of the Ardern government's core policies. The government would end the housing crisis and make housing affordable again by building 100,000 new homes. Of course, it didn't work out like that: targets weren't met, the houses they did build were in the wrong place, and the whole ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

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