Good question

Written By: - Date published: 9:22 am, September 16th, 2015 - 66 comments
Categories: Ethics, poverty - Tags: , ,

sanders-poverty

In New Zealand the figure is 24%.

66 comments on “Good question ”

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  1. Detrie 1
    16 September 2015 at 9:55 am

    I’ve been watching a few of Bernies old interviews and statements from the 80s and again in the US senate since 1990. His predication of what will occur in the middle east, following the Bush invasion into Iran and Iraq is uncanny. It proves again the violence begets violence. Note that he was a lone voice of reason in the Senate that day, others blindly following the wims of the US war machine. A man of principle and huge insight.
    https://youtu.be/2ySJLIc5BJM

    • save NZ 1.1
      16 September 2015 at 11:04 am

      +100 Detrie Everyone should watch it!

      • AmaKiwi 1.1.1
        16 September 2015 at 9:04 pm

        Sorry, Detrie. I missed the last 2 minutes because Hillary made me so seasick with bullshit I barf all over my computer.

        Note that in 2003 Bernie Sanders identified the US’s single biggest fiasco in Iraq: how will the US govern and rebuild Iraq.

  2. infused 2
    16 September 2015 at 10:01 am

    Well when the definition of poverty is set in a way where there will always be people in poverty, that kind of fucks the argument doesn’t it.

    • Hanswurst 2.1
      16 September 2015 at 10:08 am

      Only if it is set so that those people will always make up 20% of the population.

    • Sabine 2.2
      16 September 2015 at 10:10 am

      define poverty then. At what stage are people poor, and as a consequence are the children poor?

    • adam 2.3
      16 September 2015 at 10:11 am

      Your just in fine Boll Weevil form this morn.

      Poverty is relative and real – your amoral wise cracks just go to prove how ungodly you are. How far down the road to embrace the deceiver do you have to go?

      I would recommend you go back and read the Gospels son. And get a bit of love in to your heart.

      • infused 2.3.1
        16 September 2015 at 12:34 pm

        remove the emotion and you might be able to think straight.

        • adam 2.3.1.1
          16 September 2015 at 2:04 pm

          That it.

          Well one day you might understand what it means to be a real human being. See people, unlike automatons – have emotions, feeling and this little thing called empathy.

        • Paul 2.3.1.2
          16 September 2015 at 5:36 pm

          Empathy is an emotion.
          You don’t have it.
          2% of the population are psychopaths.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.4
      16 September 2015 at 10:24 am

      “the definition of poverty is set in a way where there will always be people in poverty,”

      No, it isn’t. You’re just demonstrating your ignorance, and possibly statistical illiteracy.

      The set of possible number series where all n>60% of the median, is infinite.

      • weka 2.4.1
        16 September 2015 at 11:07 am

        “The set of possible number series where all n>60% of the median, is infinite.”

        How is that helpful?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.4.1.1
          16 September 2015 at 11:31 am

          The definition of poverty is income <60% of median. Infused believes (or is lying about it) the definition ensures that someone will always fall below. He's wrong, as has been proved many times.

          • McFlock 2.4.1.1.1
            16 September 2015 at 12:05 pm

            So many times, in fact, that I suspect “ignorance” and “statistical illiteracy” were long ago replaced by “being a fucking liar who doesn’t care who knows it”.

            • infused 2.4.1.1.1.1
              16 September 2015 at 12:32 pm

              The way our current system works will always cause the probability of there being no one under 60% of median zilch.

              • Lanthanide …
                16 September 2015 at 1:07 pm

                Yes, that’s why the current system needs to be changed.

                Duh.

                Such changes to the system include:
                * UBI
                * Taxing the rich more
                * Increasing the minimum wage
                * A government-organised programme of employment
                * Changing labour laws so that the maximum amount paid to any individual in a company can be no more than a certain multiple of the minimum anyone at that company is paid (CV seems to like a 40x multiple), meaning that if the CEO wants a pay rise, the lowest paid workers must also get a pay rise.

                There are many other possible changes too. Note that I am not advocating all of these, just saying they are ways the system can be changed to eliminate poverty.

                Your approach is simply to change the definition of poverty. But that doesn’t actually help improve the quality of life of anyone who is in poverty – and that’s the actual goal of lifting people out of poverty. Changing the system does.

              • McFlock …
                16 September 2015 at 1:45 pm

                You said:

                the definition of poverty is set in a way where there will always be people in poverty

                Now you say:

                The way our current system works will always cause the probability of there being no one under 60% of median zilch

                See? You’re being intentionally deceptive. Replying to my comment with an unrelated statement is a shallow attempt to divert people from the obvious falsehood of your first comment.

                The disease of poverty is well-defined and easily preventable, contrary to your first comment. The causes of that disease are what need to be addressed in order to prevent it, as you point out in your second comment.

              • Foreign waka …
                16 September 2015 at 7:23 pm

                To Infused: Whilst so many argue that poverty is a relative term, just lets be very clear about this: if you cannot afford a roof over your head, cloths on your back, food on the table – all at once of cause – and being able to get to work if you are employed – you belong to the group of being in severe poverty. If you can do all of the above but nothing else you are poor. If you have a bit more than that you have lifted yourself out of poverty but it will take a lot more to provide the children with a decent education so that the cycle can be broken. I hope this will help with some demarcation lines that do not allow for any relativity.
                Unfortunately, poor people are becoming the majority not just in NZ but the world over.

          • Bob 2.4.1.1.2
            17 September 2015 at 11:11 am

            You are correct OAB, which is why North Korea has no poverty…wait, does that mean we should all follow North Korea’s lead to eradicate poverty?

            Can you not see why the current measure of poverty is fucked? If not, perhaps it is you that is statistically illiterate!

            • One Anonymous Bloke 2.4.1.1.2.1
              17 September 2015 at 11:36 am

              Are you so benightedly stupid that you dribbled that drivel without first reading the whole thread?

              Wipe your chin, and read eg: Naturesong’s comments.

              That mendacious trash Infused told lies about the measure and got what they deserved. You want to be associated with them? What a fool.

    • tracey 2.5
      16 September 2015 at 11:11 am

      39 minutes

    • tracey 2.6
      16 September 2015 at 11:14 am

      “Social Development Minister Paula Bennett said the ministry was already measuring child poverty, and the commissioner’s report was just “repackaged” government figures.”… and those figures?

      “265,000 children live in poverty, defined by income.

      1 in 3 Maori and Pacific children live in poverty.

      1 in 7 European children live in poverty.

      1 in 6 struggle to afford basic necessities such as healthcare and clothing.

      1 in 10 suffer from severe poverty, lacking basic necessities and adequate income.

      3 out of 5 will be living in poverty for much of their childhood.

      51 per cent are from sole parent families. 60 per cent are from beneficiary families.”

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/9492016/One-in-four-Kiwi-children-living-in-poverty

    • AB 2.7
      16 September 2015 at 11:40 am

      Here are two income distributions, The total in each one is $50

      Distribution 1:
      $17, $13, $10, $6, $2, $2.
      Median is $10, 2 people are living in poverty as they earn less than 60% of the median.

      Distribution 2:
      $12, $10, $8, $8, $7, &5.
      Median is $8. Nobody is living in poverty as nobody is earning less than 60% of the median though the $5 guy is close.

      So when you say “the definition of poverty is set in a way where there will always be people in poverty” it is not true.

      • infused 2.7.1
        16 September 2015 at 12:28 pm

        Yes, but this will never happen.

      • Hutty 2.7.2
        16 September 2015 at 12:35 pm

        Your example shows how unequal incomes equal poverty. Is this “actual poverty”?

        The left say poverty is “inequality”. The right say poverty is “when people/families go without essentials”. The argument will just go around in circles until an agreeable definition is agreed. But I doubt that will ever happen…

        • maui 2.7.2.1
          16 September 2015 at 12:52 pm

          No, the left say poverty is when people are going without what’s required for a decent standard of living. The right say this isn’t happening, because they don’t have any relationships with people who aren’t at least middle-class.

          • Lanthanide 2.7.2.1.1
            16 September 2015 at 1:13 pm

            +1

          • Naturesong 2.7.2.1.2
            16 September 2015 at 1:22 pm

            Actually poverty is not merely the absence of a decent standard of living. It’s a measurement of deprivation.

            It’s not being able to provide breakfast for your children. It’s about not being able to clothe and shoe your children. It’s about children that are denied the opportunity to reach their potential as adults.

        • Naturesong 2.7.2.2
          16 September 2015 at 1:04 pm

          Weirdly, poverty is actually “when people/families go without essentials”, as you say.

          Please have a look at the way poverty is measured in New Zealand.
          That way, next time you publish your self rightous ignorance, everyone will know it’s because you are a lying piece of shit and not just an ignorant fuck.

          The OOC EAG recommend that the govt collect startistics on the following measures:
          – Fixed-Line Income Poverty Measure
          – Moving-Line Income Poverty Measure
          – Material Deprivation Measure
          – Severe Poverty Measure
          – Measure of Poverty Persistence

          BTW, the Material Deprivation measure you assert is not measured, is.
          And it’s 17% of all children growing up in New Zealand – 180,000 children who will grow up in material deprivation. In a country rich with resources.

          • Hutty 2.7.2.2.1
            16 September 2015 at 1:34 pm

            Appreciate the constructive response Naturesong.

            Agree with the fact that 180,000 is a number far to high. Are the any trends on this or has this data only just being collected?

            However 180k is lower than “a quarter of all children” in NZ. Why don’t we just stick to this one definition that most parties seem to agree on? (Material deprivation). Then the response can target the people who have the most need. Wouldn’t this be a better situation than dragging everyone to the same outcome?

            Look forward to your eloquent feedback

            • Naturesong 2.7.2.2.1.1
              16 September 2015 at 2:08 pm

              This is from the Office of the Children’s Commissioner Expert Advisory Group Child Poverty Monitor 2014 Technical Report

              It is the second annual report so it’s difficult to map trends directly at this point. However we are able to can see more general trends in poverty by comparing similar historical statistics. (the trend has been increasing poverty over the last 35 years)

              One of the big issues is that the govt refuses to measure child poverty.
              As a result, in order to fulfil his obligation as Commissioner Dr Russell Wills has had to go cap in hand to outside parties like J R McKenzie Trust and Otago University.

              Also, the reason my language is blunt is because when someone is presented with a humanitarian disaster whose effects will be felt for generations responds with “I don’t like how one of the stats is gathered so it’s all a mirage” (paraphrased) I know I’m dealing with evil.

              As for using only one statistic to measure poverty; Read the report and you’ll begin to understand why using only a single measure will not reveal the extent of the problem.

            • Naturesong 2.7.2.2.1.2
              16 September 2015 at 2:20 pm

              Additional reading for you: Solutions to Child Poverty – Evidence for Action 2012.

              In it they state their preference for how poverty should be measured

              Children living in poverty are those who experience deprivation of the material resources and income that is required for them to develop and thrive, leaving such children unable to enjoy their rights, achieve their full potential and participate as equal members of New Zealand society.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                16 September 2015 at 4:22 pm

                That’s actually a really good definition. People living at subsistence levels may have food on the table and a place to live but they don’t have enough to thrive, to be creative.

                • weston …
                  16 September 2015 at 8:09 pm

                  cant really agree there draco creativity prob not dependant on income in fact lack of income ordinarily makes a person more creative hence the phrase necessity is the mother of invention

                  • KJT …
                    16 September 2015 at 8:16 pm

                    Creativity comes from the middle classes.

                    Enough income for leisure to create, and to fund startups.

                    But, not so much money that the can live in idleness on rentier income from others.

                    • weston …
                      16 September 2015 at 8:32 pm

                      i guess thats a kinda townie definition of creative then whereas i tend to think of it as designing yourself a nice solution to a problem usually to do with the physical world

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    17 September 2015 at 9:56 am

                    That’s a load of BS.

                    When you don’t have access to the resources to produce anything you cannot possibly be inventive.

                    • weston …
                      17 September 2015 at 6:58 pm

                      well since i dont know the particular hypothetical situation you have in yr mind draco i hesitate to call your last statement bullshit but it certainly sounds like something you might read in a sociology paper …no ideas of your own ?

      • Phil 2.7.3
        16 September 2015 at 12:52 pm

        So when you say “the definition of poverty is set in a way where there will always be people in poverty” it is not true.

        Well, it depends. Yes, you can contrive an income distribution (like your example #2) that means no one is in poverty. However, that’s a hypothetical example.

        In practice, there is no advanced country in the world today (even those with extremely generous social welfare systems, like the Scandinavians) with policies that are redistributive enough to functionally produce an outcome where no-one is in poverty.

        • Lanthanide 2.7.3.1
          16 September 2015 at 1:16 pm

          I’m pretty sure the Scandinavians don’t have UBI. So there’s an obvious first-step they could take to try and eradicate poverty.

          Just because “no country has done it”, doesn’t mean that *we* shouldn’t *strive*, and in fact that other countries can’t do better than they are.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.7.3.2
          16 September 2015 at 4:23 pm

          In practice, there is no advanced country in the world today

          Well, then, they’re not particularly advanced countries are they?

        • KJT 2.7.3.3
          16 September 2015 at 8:17 pm

          We used to be very close.

      • Phil 2.7.4
        16 September 2015 at 12:54 pm

        Here’s distribution 3:
        $45, $1, $1, $1, $1, $1.

        Median income is $1. No-one is earning less than 60% of the median. So there is no poverty. Hooray?

        • Lanthanide 2.7.4.1
          16 September 2015 at 1:14 pm

          Correct, there is no poverty.

          There may be social unrest for other reasons, however. Those at the top when the social unrest occurs, may have rather preferred to have ‘lost’ some of their money to redistributive taxation, rather than losing their heads.

        • Naturesong 2.7.4.2
          16 September 2015 at 1:29 pm

          You have correctly pointed out the flaw in relying on only one measurement of poverty.

          Which is why the OOC EAG recommend that the govt collect statistics on the following measures:
          – Fixed-Line Income Poverty Measure
          – Moving-Line Income Poverty Measure
          – Material Deprivation Measure
          – Severe Poverty Measure
          – Measure of Poverty Persistence

          Your example would likely feature quite high on the following;
          – Severe Poverty Measure
          – Material Deprivation Measure and likely the
          – Measure of Poverty Persistence

          • Phil 2.7.4.2.1
            16 September 2015 at 2:34 pm

            Your example would likely feature quite high on the following;
            – Severe Poverty Measure
            – Material Deprivation Measure and likely the
            – Measure of Poverty Persistence

            I totally agree with you that this stuff is really important but the discourse in NZ, so far, has been based pretty much exclusively on fixed-line income definition, which as we’ve debate in this thread is looking pretty lousy and far too blunt to be useful.

            Even the 24% figure used in the OP is based on a ‘60% of median income’ definition.

            • Naturesong 2.7.4.2.1.1
              16 September 2015 at 2:52 pm

              I get that you don’t like the 60% of median income measurement.

              It has limitations that are widely recognised. This doesn’t prefvent it from being a useful indicator.
              It’s essentially a proxy measure of poverty. Without validation from direct measures of people’s living standards, it is arbitrary – which is why the OOC has several other measures to ensure the complete picture is represented.

              The threshold’s importance is that it does show how the poorest members of society are doing in relation to others, it can be tracked over time, and allows comparisons between different countries.

              It’s also a very useful way to measure the extent to which government targets are being met – in other countries that have govts that actually address poverty.

        • AB 2.7.4.3
          16 September 2015 at 1:33 pm

          Indeed – the statistical definition of poverty has clear limitations. I never said it didn’t. Here’s an example just as absurd as yours – if everybody earned $0 there would be no poverty either.
          I was pointing out Infused’s obvious and probably deliberate mistake. And also that flatter, more equal income distribution means less relative poverty.
          In the end I think it’s an ethical argument – that something more like distribution 2 is ethically superior to distribution 1.
          Which I think was really Bernie’s point anyway.

          Oh – and anticipating strawman responses – I entirely accept that the neuro-surgeon who helped my son walk better should be paid heaps more than me working for a dumb-arse corporate that produces nothing of enduring social value. Though I don’t think this applies to our currency-speculator PM.

        • Andrew Murray 2.7.4.4
          16 September 2015 at 6:50 pm

          @ phil…Your deliberately simplistic example fails to observe that in such a situation the market response would be to price goods such that 80% of the population would still buy products ie could still afford them… so yeah no poverty but maybe a failure in modern consumer capitalism.

    • Puddleglum 2.8
      16 September 2015 at 6:27 pm

      Hi infused,

      I responded a while back to a commenter who made a similar claim.

      In fact, it’s wrong.

      Relative poverty is usually defined in terms of some measure relative to the median income. For example, a household income less than 60% of the median household income.

      Given that kind of a definition it is perfectly possible to have no-one in relative poverty. All it would take is for all the incomes below the median to be greater than 60% of the median.

      I’m not sure why this confusion is still around.

      All that’s needed is a clear understanding of what a median is (50% of ‘scores’ above and 50% below the median – the middle – ‘score’ which, in this case, is the middle income if everyone were lined up in order of their income).

      • Puddleglum 2.8.1
        16 September 2015 at 6:53 pm

        I should read the entire thread before commenting. Others have already said it.

        As for infused’s original comment – which was presumably directed at the quote by Sanders – then it is especially wrong, and not because of anything to do with a misunderstanding of relative poverty.

        The United States Census Bureau uses absolute measures of poverty, not relative ones.

        Here’s a summary of the 2012-2013 Bureau report on poverty rates.

        The overall poverty rate (measured using absolute and relevant measures of poverty) is 15.8% below the poverty line and 20.6% either below or no more than 25% above the poverty line (i.e., at risk of falling into poverty).

        Unfortunately, it doesn’t break out the child poverty rates though, at a guess, I’d imagine that the absolute measures used would make families with children more likely to fall below the poverty level. Sanders’ 20% figure therefore sounds reasonable.

        • Puddleglum 2.8.1.1
          16 September 2015 at 7:04 pm

          Well, I’ve found the official figure that Sanders will be using.

          See Figure 1 on page 4 of this report about the use of a ‘supplemental poverty measure’ versus the official figure. The bar of the official rate for those under age 18 is almost exactly at the 20% level.

          There’s also some interesting discussion of the alternative SPM measure (also graphed in the figure). Curiously, while it usually provides poverty estimates higher than the official figure (and overall gives a higher level for the US), it provides a lower level for those under 18.

          ‘Interesting’ for stats wonks anyway.

          • Puddleglum 2.8.1.1.1
            16 September 2015 at 7:08 pm

            At the risk of looking like I’m carrying out a conversation with myself ( 🙂 ), in Table 2 on page 5 of the same report it shows that the official poverty rate for those under 18 is 20.4% – about 15 million of the roughly 74 million Americans in this age group.

            • weston 2.8.1.1.1.1
              16 September 2015 at 8:22 pm

              all these arguments seem to be about statistics ,,,,glad your still up puddleglum im always having conversations with myself ! …why isnt anyone talking about how to live happily on very little money ? it is possible so long as your not between a rock and a hard place such as impossibly high rent or mortgage happiness is surely more about your relationships than anything else what u think ?

    • KJT 2.9
      16 September 2015 at 7:03 pm

      Infused, is statistically confused!

      Again!

      Again, for the mentally challenged.

      60% of average income works because prices within the country tend to reflect the average income. Which is why, in Vietnam, you could live like a King on $NZ200 a week.
      Whereas, in New Zealand, it is barely enough to survive.

      Made worse in New Zealand by house prices artificially inflated by demand from offshore.

  3. Coaster 3
    16 September 2015 at 3:49 pm

    When you have to start arguing about the definition of poverty, youve already lost the argument.

    Its realy very simple, would you be happy living on 60% or less of the median wage?. If not, its probably immoral to expect others to.

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    It was at the end of the Foxton straights, at the end of 1978, at 100km/h, that someone tried to grab me from behind on my Yamaha.They seemed to be yanking my backpack. My first thought was outrage. My second was: but how? Where have they come from? And my ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 days ago

  • Look who’s stepped up to champion Winston
    There’s no news to be gleaned from the government’s official website today  – it contains nothing more than the message about the site being under maintenance. The time this maintenance job is taking and the costs being incurred have us musing on the government’s commitment to an assault on inflation. ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago

  • What's The Story?
    Don’t you sometimes wish they’d just tell the truth? No matter how abhorrent or ugly, just straight up tell us the truth?C’mon guys, what you’re doing is bad enough anyway, pretending you’re not is only adding insult to injury.Instead of all this bollocks about the Smokefree changes being to do ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago

  • The longest of weeks
    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past week’s editions.Friday Under New Management Week in review, quiz style1. Which of these best describes Aotearoa?a. Progressive nation, proud of its egalitarian spirit and belief in a fair go b. Best little country on the planet c. ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago

  • Suggested sessions of EGU24 to submit abstracts to
    Like earlier this year, members from our team will be involved with next year's General Assembly of the European Geosciences Union (EGU). The conference will take place on premise in Vienna as well as online from April 14 to 19, 2024. The session catalog has been available since November 1 ...
    Skeptical Science
    3 days ago

  • Under New Management
    1. Which of these best describes Aotearoa?a. Progressive nation, proud of its egalitarian spirit and belief in a fair go b. Best little country on the planet c. Under New Management 2. Which of these best describes the 100 days of action announced this week by the new government?a. Petulantb. Simplistic and wrongheaded c. ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago

  • While we wait patiently, our new Minister of Education is up and going with a 100-day action plan
    Sorry to say, the government’s official website is still out of action. When Point of Order paid its daily visit, the message was the same as it has been for the past week: Site under maintenance Beehive.govt.nz is currently under maintenance. We will be back shortly. Thank you for your ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago

  • DAVID FARRAR: Hysterical bullshit
    Radio NZ reports: Te Pāti Māori’s co-leader Debbie Ngarewa-Packer has accused the new government of “deliberate .. systemic genocide” over its policies to roll back the smokefree policy and the Māori Health Authority. The left love hysterical language. If you oppose racial quotas in laws, you are a racist. And now if you sack ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago

  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #48 2023
    Open access notables From this week's government/NGO section, longitudinal data is gold and Leisorowitz, Maibachi et al. continue to mine ore from the US public with Climate Change in the American Mind: Politics & Policy, Fall 2023: Drawing on a representative sample of the U.S. adult population, the authors describe how registered ...
    Skeptical Science
    4 days ago

  • ELE LUDEMANN: It wasn’t just $55 million
    Ele Ludemann writes –  Winston Peters reckons media outlets were bribed by the $55 million Public Interest Journalism Fund. He is not the first to make such an accusation. Last year, the Platform outlined conditions media signed up to in return for funds from the PJIF: . . . ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago

  • Weekly Roundup 1-December-2023
    Wow, it’s December already, and it’s a Friday. So here are few things that caught our attention recently. This Week in Greater Auckland On Monday Matt covered the new government’s coalition agreements and what they mean for transport. On Tuesday Matt looked at AT’s plans for fare increases ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    4 days ago

  • Shane MacGowan Is Gone.
    Late 1996, The Dogs Bollix, Tamaki Makaurau.I’m at the front of the bar yelling my order to the bartender, jostling with other thirsty punters on a Friday night, keen to piss their wages up against a wall letting loose. The black stuff, long luscious pints of creamy goodness. Back down ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago

  • The Hoon around the week to Dec 1
    Nicola Willis, Chris Bishop and other National, ACT and NZ First MPs applaud the signing of the coalition agreements, which included the reversal of anti-smoking measures while accelerating tax cuts for landlords. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago

  • 2023 More Reading: November (+ Writing Update)
    Completed reads for November: A Modern Utopia, by H.G. Wells The Vampire (poem), by Heinrich August Ossenfelder The Corpus Hermeticum The Corpus Hermeticum is Mead’s translation. Now, this is indeed a very quiet month for reading. But there is a reason for that… You see, ...
    A Phuulish FellowBy strda221
    4 days ago

  • Forward to 2017
    The coalition party agreements are mainly about returning to 2017 when National lost power. They show commonalities but also some serious divergencies.The two coalition agreements – one National and ACT, the other National and New Zealand First – are more than policy documents. They also describe the processes of the ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    5 days ago

  • Questions a nine year old might ask the new Prime Minister
    First QuestionYou’re going to crack down on people ram-raiding dairies, because you say hard-working dairy owners shouldn’t have to worry about getting ram-raided.But once the chemist shops have pseudoephedrine in them again, they're going to get ram-raided all the time. Do chemists not work as hard as dairy owners?Second QuestionYou ...
    More than a fieldingBy David Slack
    5 days ago

  • Questions a nine year old might ask the new Prime Minister
    First QuestionYou’re going to crack down on people ram-raiding dairies, because you say hard-working dairy owners shouldn’t have to worry about getting ram-raided.But once the chemist shops have pseudoephedrine in them again, they're going to get ram-raided all the time. Do chemists not work as hard as dairy owners?Second QuestionYou ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago

  • Finally
    Henry Kissinger is finally dead. Good fucking riddance. While Americans loved him, he was a war criminal, responsible for most of the atrocities of the final quarter of the twentieth century. Cambodia. Bangladesh. Chile. East Timor. All Kissinger. Because of these crimes, Americans revere him as a "statesman" (which says ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago

  • Government in a hurry – Luxon lists 49 priorities in 100-day plan while Peters pledges to strength...
    Buzz from the Beehive Yes, ministers in the new government are delivering speeches and releasing press statements. But the message on the government’s official website was the same as it has been for the past several days, when Point of Order went looking for news from the Beehive that had ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago

  • DAVID FARRAR: Luxon is absolutely right
    David Farrar writes  –  1 News reports: Christopher Luxon says he was told by some Kiwis on the campaign trail they “didn’t know” the difference between Waka Kotahi, Te Pūkenga and Te Whatu Ora. Speaking to Breakfast, the incoming prime minister said having English first on government agencies will “make sure” ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago

  • Top 10 at 10 am for Thursday, Nov 30
    There are fears that mooted changes to building consent liability could end up driving the building industry into an uninsured hole. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere as of 10 am on Thursday, November 30, including:The new Government’s ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago

  • Gordon Campbell on how climate change threatens cricket‘s future
    Well that didn’t last long, did it? Mere days after taking on what he called the “awesome responsibility” of being Prime Minister, M Christopher Luxon has started blaming everyone else, and complaining that he has inherited “economic vandalism on an unprecedented scale” – which is how most of us are ...
    Gordon CampbellBy lyndon
    5 days ago

  • We need to talk about Tory.
    The first I knew of the news about Tory Whanau was when a tweet came up in my feed.The sort of tweet that makes you question humanity, or at least why you bother with Twitter. Which is increasingly a cesspit of vile inhabitants who lurk spreading negativity, hate, and every ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago

  • Dangling Transport Solutions
    Cable Cars, Gondolas, Ropeways and Aerial Trams are all names for essentially the same technology and the world’s biggest maker of them are here to sell them as an public transport solution. Stuff reports: Austrian cable car company Doppelmayr has launched its case for adding aerial cable cars to New ...
    Greater AucklandBy Matt L
    5 days ago

  • November AMA
    Hi,It’s been awhile since I’ve done an Ask-Me-Anything on here, so today’s the day. Ask anything you like in the comments section, and I’ll be checking in today and tomorrow to answer.Leave a commentNext week I’ll be giving away a bunch of these Mister Organ blu-rays for readers in New ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    5 days ago

  • National’s early moves adding to cost of living pressure
    The cost of living grind continues, and the economic and inflation honeymoon is over before it began. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: PM Christopher Luxon unveiled his 100 day plan yesterday with an avowed focus of reducing cost-of-living pressures, but his Government’s initial moves and promises are actually elevating ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago

  • Backwards to the future
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has confirmed that it will be back to the future on planning legislation. This will be just one of a number of moves which will see the new government go backwards as it repeals and cost-cuts its way into power. They will completely repeal one ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago

  • New initiatives in science and technology could point the way ahead for Luxon government
    As the new government settles into the Beehive, expectations are high that it can sort out some  of  the  economic issues  confronting  New Zealand. It may take time for some new  ministers to get to grips with the range of their portfolio work and responsibilities before they can launch the  changes that  ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    6 days ago

  • Treaty pledge to secure funding is contentious – but is Peters being pursued by a lynch mob after ...
    TV3 political editor Jenna Lynch was among the corps of political reporters who bridled, when Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters told them what he thinks of them (which is not much). She was unabashed about letting her audience know she had bridled. More usefully, she drew attention to something which ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago

  • How long does this last?
    I have a clear memory of every election since 1969 in this plucky little nation of ours. I swear I cannot recall a single one where the question being asked repeatedly in the first week of the new government was: how long do you reckon they’ll last? And that includes all ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago

  • National’s giveaway politics
    We already know that national plans to boost smoking rates to collect more tobacco tax so they can give huge tax-cuts to mega-landlords. But this morning that policy got even more obscene - because it turns out that the tax cut is retrospective: Residential landlords will be able to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago

  • CHRIS TROTTER: Who’s driving the right-wing bus?
    Who’s At The Wheel? The electorate’s message, as aggregated in the polling booths on 14 October, turned out to be a conservative political agenda stronger than anything New Zealand has seen in five decades. In 1975, Bill Rowling was run over by just one bus, with Rob Muldoon at the wheel. In 2023, ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago

  • GRAHAM ADAMS:  Media knives flashing for Luxon’s government
    The fear and loathing among legacy journalists is astonishing Graham Adams writes – No one is going to die wondering how some of the nation’s most influential journalists personally view the new National-led government. It has become abundantly clear within a few days of the coalition agreements ...
    Point of OrderBy gadams1000
    6 days ago

  • Top 10 news links for Wednesday, Nov 29
    TL;DR: Here’s my pick of top 10 news links elsewhere for Wednesday November 29, including:The early return of interest deductibility for landlords could see rebates paid on previous taxes and the cost increase to $3 billion from National’s initial estimate of $2.1 billion, CTU Economist Craig Renney estimated here last ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago

  • Smokefree Fallout and a High Profile Resignation.
    The day after being sworn in the new cabinet met yesterday, to enjoy their honeymoon phase. You remember, that period after a new government takes power where the country, and the media, are optimistic about them, because they haven’t had a chance to stuff anything about yet.Sadly the nuptials complete ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago

  • As Cabinet revs up, building plans go on hold
    Wellington Council hoardings proclaim its preparations for population growth, but around the country councils are putting things on hold in the absence of clear funding pathways for infrastructure, and despite exploding migrant numbers. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Cabinet meets in earnest today to consider the new Government’s 100-day ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago

  • National takes over infrastructure
    Though New Zealand First may have had ambitions to run the infrastructure portfolios, National would seem to have ended up firmly in control of them.  POLITIK has obtained a private memo to members of Infrastructure NZ yesterday, which shows that the peak organisation for infrastructure sees  National MPs Chris ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    6 days ago

  • At a glance – Evidence for global warming
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    Skeptical Science
    6 days ago

  • Who’s Driving The Right-Wing Bus?
    Who’s At The Wheel? The electorate’s message, as aggregated in the polling booths on 14 October, turned out to be a conservative political agenda stronger than anything New Zealand has seen in five decades. In 1975, Bill Rowling was run over by just one bus, with Rob Muldoon at the wheel. In ...
    Bowalley Road
    7 days ago

  • Sanity break
    Cheers to reader Deane for this quote from Breakfast TV today:Chloe Swarbrick to Brook van Velden re the coalition agreement: “... an unhinged grab-bag of hot takes from your drunk uncle at Christmas”Cheers also to actual Prime Minister of a country Christopher Luxon for dorking up his swearing-in vows.But that's enough ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 days ago

  • Sanity break
    Cheers to reader Deane for this quote from Breakfast TV today:Chloe Swarbrick to Brook van Velden re the coalition agreement: “... an unhinged grab-bag of hot takes from your drunk uncle at Christmas”Cheers also to actual Prime Minister of a country Christopher Luxon for dorking up his swearing-in vows.But that's enough ...
    More than a fieldingBy David Slack
    7 days ago

  • National’s murderous smoking policy
    One of the big underlying problems in our political system is the prevalence of short-term thinking, most usually seen in the periodic massive infrastructure failures at a local government level caused by them skimping on maintenance to Keep Rates Low. But the new government has given us a new example, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago

  • NZ has a chance to rise again as our new government gets spending under control
    New Zealand has  a chance  to  rise  again. Under the  previous  government, the  number of New Zealanders below the poverty line was increasing  year by year. The Luxon-led government  must reverse that trend – and set about stabilising  the  pillars  of the economy. After the  mismanagement  of the outgoing government created   huge ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    7 days ago

  • KARL DU FRESNE: Media and the new government
    Two articles by Karl du Fresne bring media coverage of the new government into considerations.  He writes –    Tuesday, November 28, 2023 The left-wing media needed a line of attack, and they found one The left-wing media pack wasted no time identifying the new government’s weakest point. Seething over ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago

  • PHILIP CRUMP:  Team of rivals – a CEO approach to government leadership
    The work begins Philip Crump wrote this article ahead of the new government being sworn in yesterday – Later today the new National-led coalition government will be sworn in, and the hard work begins. At the core of government will be three men – each a leader ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago

  • Black Friday
    As everyone who watches television or is on the mailing list for any of our major stores will confirm, “Black Friday” has become the longest running commercial extravaganza and celebration in our history. Although its origins are obscure (presumably dreamt up by American salesmen a few years ago), it has ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    7 days ago

  • In Defense of the Media.
    Yesterday the Ministers in the next government were sworn in by our Governor General. A day of tradition and ceremony, of decorum and respect. Usually.But yesterday Winston Peters, the incoming Deputy Prime Minister, and Foreign Minister, of our nation used it, as he did with the signing of the coalition ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    7 days ago

  • Top 10 news links at 10 am for Tuesday, Nov 28
    Nicola Willis’ first move was ‘spilling the tea’ on what she called the ‘sobering’ state of the nation’s books, but she had better be able to back that up in the HYEFU. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s my pick of top 10 news links elsewhere at 10 am ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 days ago

  • PT use up but fare increases coming
    Yesterday Auckland Transport were celebrating, as the most recent Sunday was the busiest Sunday they’ve ever had. That’s a great outcome and I’m sure the ...
    Greater AucklandBy Matt L
    7 days ago

  • The very opposite of social investment
    Nicola Willis (in blue) at the signing of the coalition agreement, before being sworn in as both Finance Minister and Social Investment Minister. National’s plan to unwind anti-smoking measures will benefit her in the first role, but how does it stack up from a social investment viewpoint? Photo: Lynn Grieveson ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago

  • Giving Tuesday
    For the first time "in history" we decided to jump on the "Giving Tuesday" bandwagon in order to make you aware of the options you have to contribute to our work! Projects supported by Skeptical Science Inc. Skeptical Science Skeptical Science is an all-volunteer organization but ...
    Skeptical Science
    1 week ago

  • Let's open the books with Nicotine Willis
    Let’s say it’s 1984,and there's a dreary little nation at the bottom of the Pacific whose name rhymes with New Zealand,and they've just had an election.Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, will you look at the state of these books we’ve opened,cries the incoming government, will you look at all this mountain ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 week ago

  • Climate Change: Stopping oil
    National is promising to bring back offshore oil and gas drilling. Naturally, the Greens have organised a petition campaign to try and stop them. You should sign it - every little bit helps, and as the struggle over mining conservation land showed, even National can be deterred if enough people ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago

  • Don’t accept Human Rights Commission reading of data on Treaty partnership – read the survey fin...
    Wellington is braced for a “massive impact’ from the new government’s cutting public service jobs, The Post somewhat grimly reported today. Expectations of an economic and social jolt are based on the National-Act coalition agreement to cut public service numbers in each government agency in a cost-trimming exercise  “informed by” head ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 week ago

  • New Zealand welcomes European Parliament vote on the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement
    A significant milestone in ratifying the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement (FTA) was reached last night, with 524 of the 705 member European Parliament voting in favour to approve the agreement. “I’m delighted to hear of the successful vote to approve the NZ-EU FTA in the European Parliament overnight. This is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago

  • Further humanitarian support for Gaza, the West Bank and Israel
    The Government is contributing a further $5 million to support the response to urgent humanitarian needs in Gaza, the West Bank and Israel, bringing New Zealand’s total contribution to the humanitarian response so far to $10 million. “New Zealand is deeply saddened by the loss of civilian life and the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago

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