Greenpeace activists on oil rig

74 comments on “Greenpeace activists on oil rig ”

• Comments are now closed

1. Robert Atack 1

   7 April 2015 at 12:26 pm

   Sad fools, it doesn’t matter were ‘we’ drill, or not.
   Again 403 ppm CO2 = end of humans and all mammals …. soon.
   If they stopped all drilling tonight it wouldn’t make 1 jot of difference.
   They are probably parents, so they can’t face the simple truth.
   Humans are going extinct http://guymcpherson.com/2014/01/climate-change-summary-and-update/

   Though I admire there convection, where were they 15 years ago when I was foolish to think people would listen if given the facts …. yeah right.

   Keep breading bunnies.
   • weka 1.1

     7 April 2015 at 12:56 pm

     Guy McPherson, and those who like to quote him, are basically telling people to give up. Fuck that defeatist shit.

     Neither McPherson, nor yourself, are godlike enough to know what is going to happen. There is nothing I’ve seen in McPherson’s work that says we WILL go extinct, it’s more his interpretation of the data and what the scientist are saying. That doesn’t mean he is right. Saying we WILL go extinct closes the window now and leaves us with no options at all. Way to align yourselves with the oil companies and fuckers who think making money is it or we can go down with a big bang.

     Instead, let’s care, and do what must be done now.
     • Bill 1.1.1

       7 April 2015 at 2:33 pm

       Well, if McPherson is correct, and he may be, the only thing you can do is attempt to prove him wrong by somehow insisting that radical steps are taken immediately and on a global scale.

       Or look at it this way, if he is wrong ‘today’ he sure as hell isn’t going to be wrong ‘tomorrow’.

       It’s not just McPherson who cannot envisage a functioning global community at +4 degrees C – it’s basically the scientific community that can’t envisage such a thing. So, does a dysfunctional or severely disrupted human community equate with extinction?

       Well, when you take into account that the scientific community is now essentially resigned to + 4 degrees and that their reports and models do not factor in feed-back loops while routinely and demonstrably under-estimating likely levels of warming, even as they speak of the higher likelihood of run-away global warming kicking in off the back of 3 or 4 degrees of anthropogenic warming…

       I don’t know the temperatures at which our biological integrity collapses. But at 4 degrees, our infrastructures, both local and global, collapse. You wanna throw in runaway temperature increases on the top of that…12…16…18 degrees C?

       Or, going back to my earlier point, do you want to, and in any way you can imagine, absolutely insist that radical steps are taken as of now in the hope – and it can only be a hope – that we duck 4 degrees and don’t see feed-back loops and runaway temperature increases in the interim?
       • Alethios 1.1.1.1

         7 April 2015 at 3:08 pm

         There’s no doubt we’re in the midst of a crisis.

         It seems to me that what is required, as a bare minimum, is an entirely different vision for the future, first as individuals and then as a society. This dream of cars, parking lots and TV cannot continue. We need a new narrative; a new goal to set out sights on and begin to make a reality.

         Perhaps soon enough, that goal will simply be ‘survival’, and then we’ll see what human beings are truly capable of.
         • Bill 1.1.1.1.1

           7 April 2015 at 3:58 pm

           Went searching for an answer to the question I asked above – the temperature at which we are no longer biologically viable.

           Turns out to be ~ 35 degrees C allowing for increased humidity and temperature (ie, wet bulb temperature).

           There’s a readable paper summary on heat stress and labour under some AGW scenarios here.

           http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/news-app/story.77

           And wet bulb temperature’s deleterious effect on human biology is explained here.

           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-bulb_temperature#Wet-bulb_temperature_and_health
       • weka 1.1.1.2

         7 April 2015 at 7:41 pm

         “Or, going back to my earlier point, do you want to, and in any way you can imagine, absolutely insist that radical steps are taken as of now in the hope – and it can only be a hope – that we duck 4 degrees and don’t see feed-back loops and runaway temperature increases in the interim?”

         Of course. And my experience so far is that being fatalistic or scaring the crap out of people without giving them options just makes them shut down and turn off, and that lessens our small chance of being able to do something (scaring people might work sometimes, but it needs to be done smart. Robert’s comment wasn’t smart).

         My issue with McPherson isn’t that he might be right or wrong (but thanks for using ‘if’), it’s his playing Oracle and leaving no room for change. Given his position of power and responsibility, that’s both fucked up and damaging. It’s unnecessary and I have no respect for it.
         • Bill 1.1.1.2.1

           7 April 2015 at 8:18 pm

           People scaring the crap out of other people (a la McPherson) might not be any more of a problem, and is conceivably less of a problem, than pedalling false hope (Reports by the IPCC and other major reports or the angle of major media outlets etc).

           But the real problems are climate latency (2 degrees C of warming is ‘locked in’) and, essentially, our refusal to stop burning fossil fuels, laying cement or any of a number of other utterly avoidable and unnecessary things we do that contribute to warming.

           At pains of sounding too blunt, I don’t quite understand the notion of options. There are no options.
           • weka 1.1.1.2.1.1

             7 April 2015 at 8:45 pm

             I’m not pedalling false hopes so I’m not sure why you are making that comparison.

             “At pains of sounding too blunt, I don’t quite understand the notion of options. There are no options.”

             Do you mean you agree with Robert that it’s too late and we’re completely fucked? Because I got from your previous comment that you thought radical change was still an option.
             • Bill …

               7 April 2015 at 9:03 pm

               I thought I was very clear about where the false hope was coming from…major media, Pollyanna-ish scientific reports…

               I’m making the comparison with ‘scaring the horses’ because I’m not clear which of the two (false hope or scare mongering) is worse in terms of creating inaction.

               Also thought I was being reasonably clear on the ‘there is no option’ front. There is no option bar to immediately stop what we’re doing.
               • weka …

                 7 April 2015 at 9:12 pm

                 “There is no option bar to immediately stop what we’re doing.”

                 Yes. And I’m pointing out that if you want people to do that, telling them the science says we’re doomed and are all going to die is not a useful strategy. Getting people to change requires giving them things to do. Most people feel a huge sense of helplessness in the face of CC, and giving them hopelessness on top of that just turns them back to BAU. That’s not theoretical, it’s what happens. You personally may already know what to do. Most people don’t. That’s what I mean about giving them options (radical action for someone in my situation is going to be different than radical action for someone with a high paying job and a mortgage to match, or a woman raising 3 kids on her own).

                 “I’m making the comparison with ‘scaring the horses’ because I’m not clear which of the two (false hope or scare mongering) is worse in terms of creating inaction.”

                 If they both have the end result of people not acting, does it matter which is worse? It’s not really what I am talking about anyway, and I’m not sure why it’s come up.
                 • marty mars …

                   7 April 2015 at 10:13 pm

                   The idea of hope is important and that is why I gave up on Guy and began seriously reading JMG – but not just reading – thinking and acting too.

                   if people aren’t ready or are unable (for any and all reasons) to accept and make changes in their lives about the rapid changes happening today as the world warms then that is just the way it is. People cannot and will not be forced – blame can be fairly put onto politicians and civil leaders and onto the people themselves – ignorance is not bliss, it is misery. Everyday we make a million choices around our priorities and everyday those choices reflect our values.

                   still we wait for the messiah to show and tell us what to do – s/he ain’t coming – we are going to have to walk this journey ourselves, one step at a time…
                   • weka …

                     7 April 2015 at 10:23 pm

                     I was thinking more about the people that are ready to change, or nearly ready, but don’t know what to do. Those people are worth attention.
                   • marty mars …

                     7 April 2015 at 11:00 pm

                     “Those people are worth attention.”

                     Yes they are

                     the hard truth is that those they will change will change and those that won’t won’t

                     Perhaps rather than try and get people to realise they need to change or to hold their hand while they try to change, we hould instead spend time and energy making the area/skill/attitudes, that they will have to change to, more available. Both pieces of work are needed, as well as many more, but how often is it just a talkathon and no one does a single thing different afterwards.
     • Robert Atack 1.1.2

       7 April 2015 at 5:44 pm

       Weka I will say it again … yawn – 403 ppm CO2, that will be the minimum for the next 1,000 years +
       • weka 1.1.2.1

         7 April 2015 at 7:35 pm

         You can say it as much as you like and that just makes you part of the problem.
         • Robert Atack 1.1.2.1.1

           8 April 2015 at 8:53 am

           Sorry Weka but how does understand the problem ad to it?
           I can just see you in the doctors surgery
           Doctor ” Looks like you’ve broken your leg Weka”
           Weka “No, I hoped I hadn’t, you are wrong, it’s your fault I’m in pain”
           You are just shooting the messenger.

           What I ‘hoped’ would come out of telling the truth, would be a ‘humane’ society for as long as it could be maintained ie law and order and reasonable distribution of food, but no, you will all keep voting for whatever ‘best’ option you see for yourselves.
           You will not vote for the survival of you children, you will run away from the FACTS, hiding under the blankets when the big bad boogie man of reality raises its/my ugly head, “mummy someone is telling me there is no hope”

           Fuck hope … and don’t vote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCIVHpHGZVM
           • weka 1.1.2.1.1.1

             8 April 2015 at 9:35 am

             I’m not talking about hope. That you don’t get that is on you.

             You have no idea what I do, or will do, or even think, because you are so caught up in your own fortune telling.

             Stop making shit up about me.

             I don’t have a problem with you understanding the problem. I have a problem with you framing the debate as we’re all going to die based on your interpretation of the science. You don’t actually know what the truth is as far as what will happen next (no-one does), but you want us to follow you down your path. I’m saying that if you are wrong, that path seals our doom. That’s why your aligned with the sociopaths killing the place.

             What I ‘hoped’ would come out of telling the truth, would be a ‘humane’ society for as long as it could be maintained ie law and order and reasonable distribution of food, but no, you will all keep voting for whatever ‘best’ option you see for yourselves.

             Right, so you are basically saying that your priority is keeping things seemly for humans until the shit hits the fan. This too is a major part of the problem, because it takes us outside of nature and says we are the important thing here (which is precisely the thinking that got us into this mess). This too is why you are aligned with the sociopaths killing the place.

             Even if you were right about it being too late to do anything for humanity, there’s still plenty to do because it’s the right thing to do for life. And even if you don’t give a shit about life in general, your strategy is a big fail, because telling people they are all going to die is not going to elicit the humane ending to humanity that you hoped for.

             “I can just see you in the doctors surgery
             Doctor ” Looks like you’ve broken your leg Weka”
             Weka “No, I hoped I hadn’t, you are wrong, it’s your fault I’m in pain”
             You are just shooting the messenger.”

             Try this,

             Weka, “I think I’ve broken my leg”
             Quack ”looks to me like you’ve got leg falling off disease”
             Weka “No, I’m pretty sure I broke it and I’d like us to assess this rationally based on the xrays and other diagnostic tools available”
             Quack “I know the truth! The one true way! You and all the ones like you are useless and in denial because of your own inadequacies and I am Great! I’m a prophet and I tell you that your leg is going to fall off any day now and the best you can hope for is palliative care, don’t blame me if you can’t handle the truth”.

             Yes, you are the quack. And the refusal to treat the broken leg is exactly what will cause it to fall off.
             • Robert Atack …

               8 April 2015 at 2:31 pm

               All I can say is you are braver than me, especially if you are betting your children’s futures on what is (or in your case, not) coming )

               >’Even if you were right about it being too late to do anything for humanity, there’s still plenty to do because it’s the right thing to do for life.’ And even if you don’t give a shit about life in general, {I’m a vegetarian, does that count for giving a shit?}
               > your strategy is a big fail, because telling people they are all going to die is not going to elicit the humane ending to humanity that you hoped for.<
               I tell people they are going to die .. soon.. in the idiot 'hope' that they listen, do the math, and not have a bloody baby!! ops sorry that sounded like a 'rave' But alas even the Guy McPherson 'lot' want to keep having kids? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cJK72Lo5-U see from 20:50 on

               I hoped (past tense) – for a humane ending to humanity, but that was 15 years ago when like an idiot, I had 'hope' and I didn't understand how locked into denial you all are, I thought voting for a person/party who knew about peak oil might bring peak oil to the forefront of the political debate, but alas no, she/they sat on that information for bloody years. To the point of going 100 degrees in the wrong direction by promoting Kiwi Saver and manufacturing jobs ?
               Now we face the 22after.com scenario , and it sure as hell isn't my fault, if I was stupid enough to have had a child in the past 16 years, then that child's suffering would be my fault, and I would man up and take responsibility, but I am not going to take responsibility for your fuckups

               So rather than get upset I have become resigned to being one of the only people who has worked it out, abusing me just adds to the humor these days
               Quack quack
               • Paul …

                 8 April 2015 at 2:34 pm

                 Better to something rather than nothing.
       • johnm 1.1.2.2

         7 April 2015 at 10:16 pm

         As Industrial civilisation continues to burn coal, oil and gas that 403 level will increase yearly by at least 2ppm.

         http://co2now.org/
         • johnm 1.1.2.2.1

           7 April 2015 at 10:34 pm

           ” For the past decade (2005-2014) the average annual increase is 2.1 ppm per year. The average for the prior decade (1995-2004) is 1.9 ppm per year. Annual data for 2014 was first posted January 6, 2015, by NOAA-ESRL in the United States. ”

           http://co2now.org/
   • infused 1.2

     7 April 2015 at 1:02 pm

     You’re pretty much right tbh, but I think we will survive.
     • Jones 1.2.1

       7 April 2015 at 6:21 pm

       Something resembling human beings will survive but nothing like in the lifestyles many of us are used to today, and nowhere near the population levels the planet is currently accommodating.
2. Maui 2

   7 April 2015 at 1:23 pm

   +1 Weka. Humans do need hope, and basically to just give in and say we’re doomed doesn’t really solve anything.

   I admire McPherson’s opinions regarding doing what you love rather than work, and that industrialised civilisation is killing the planet. But the reality is we’re not going to get rid of industrialisation anytime soon without some massive crisis. So we must work towards reforming it as best we can so future generations have a liveable planet. A massive change to how we think about the economy and climate will have to happen at some point, maybe within a couple of decades. Whether it will be too late by then who knows.
3. fisiani 3

   7 April 2015 at 6:06 pm

   Terrorists on oil rig. Fixed it for you.
   Greenpeace is an oxymoron.
   • felix 3.1

     7 April 2015 at 6:35 pm

     Because they’re using violence or the threat of violence against a civilian population to advance a political cause?

     Or do you have some other definition of terrorism?
     • fisiani 3.1.1

       7 April 2015 at 6:39 pm

       Correct.
       • weka 3.1.1.1

         7 April 2015 at 7:43 pm

         in the brave new world, terrorism is anything that obstructs the sociopaths.
         • felix 3.1.1.1.1

           7 April 2015 at 8:25 pm

           Pretty much.
       • felix 3.1.1.2

         7 April 2015 at 8:27 pm

         Which is correct, fizzy?

         Seeing as there’s no violence or threat of violence against civilian populations, I guess you must have meant you have another definition.

         What is it?
   • Corokia 3.2

     7 April 2015 at 6:39 pm

     They have peacefully occupied the rig. They are not terrorising anyone, no one is being held hostage, they are not threatening to kill anyone or blow anything up, so stop talking bullshit. What IS terrifying is that a supposedly intelligent species is driving civilisation off a cliff.
   • Paul 3.3

     8 April 2015 at 2:37 pm

     Eco- Terrorists working for Shell drilling for oil, thereby responsible for genocide by destroying the planet.
     FIFY.
4. rich the other 4

   7 April 2015 at 6:31 pm

   Geez these oil company’s are mean , they must own plenty of grease , why not use it .
5. Corokia 5

   7 April 2015 at 7:55 pm

   Giving up is collaborating with the fossil fuel companies and the media barons. Anyone who refuses to fight this, because they claim it is ‘too late’, is complicit in this climate crime against our mokapuna. Fuck Guy McPherson and other self appointed gurus who make a career out of apocalypse porn.
   • weka 5.1

     7 April 2015 at 8:47 pm

     that’s it Corokia.
   • Robert Atack 5.2

     8 April 2015 at 8:33 am

     I’m down over $25 K on my ‘career’
     If we were serious about changing things we would be voting for 80% unemployment at the very least, ‘we’ would have an environmental political movement/party, we would have politicians that will till you any investment ie Kiwi Saver is based on continued destruction and the increase of CO2/CH4/ and all the other GHG gasses = to maybe 100ppm CO2e NOW
     I don’r give a fat rodents backside how much ‘hope’ you all want to cling to (like the 2 year olds most of you are), it is only when that ignorant selfish emotion leads to more kids that I get pissed, but there again, it is a tad comforting knowing fuckwits are adding to their own misery, sad about the innocent victims though.
     La la la la happy happy joy joy, you ‘hopies’ should all be worshiping SpongeBob
     Greenpeace et al are down in steerage bailing with egg cups, while nature bolts the doors. And TPTB (and most of the population) want to keep stoking the engines to maintain a steady as she goes speed.

     “Giving up is collaborating with the fossil fuel companies” …. being as there are 10 calories of ‘oil’ to every 1 calorie of solar energy going into nearly everything you eat, even feeding yourself is ‘collaborating’ with the oil companies, so is investing in Labours and the Greens savings scam.
     • Molly 5.2.1

       8 April 2015 at 11:41 am

       Robert, you are ranting.

       Your view might have the support of some indicators, but you sound like a child having a tantrum because no one is listening to you explain that C-A-T spells “cat”. Most commenters on here know that, we just disagree with your fatalistic prescriptive approach.

       You are exhibiting worrying signs of blaming those not in power, who, despite that, are endeavouring to contribute towards alternative views of what adaptation and response may be.

       I have a feeling that this powerlessness is not something you have experienced very much and it is disengaging you from useful dialogue.

       When I look at those I have “bred” – and what a despicable turn of phrase that is – I do have concerns about their future and the world they will inherit. But I also recognise that we are only here and now, and our actions inform and shape our lives. I hope that they will only rarely be so despondent that they take out their vitriol on others, and hopefully never to the point where they write it down as comments on a forum of also concerned participants.

       Speak up about the changes you have made.

       You may invite change in that way.
       • Robert Atack 5.2.1.1

         8 April 2015 at 2:38 pm

         >Speak up about the changes you have made.<

         Molly, over population is the main driver of our demise, if you haven't worked it out – breeding (or spitting out a kid) contributes to overpopulation 😉
         I had a vasectomy within about 6 months of 'working it out' so that was my change, and now I'm speaking about it.
         • Paul 5.2.1.1.1

           8 April 2015 at 2:38 pm

           Do you eat meat?
           Do you drive a car?
           • Robert Atack 5.2.1.1.1.1

             8 April 2015 at 2:50 pm

             Sorry Paul
             It doesn’t matter what I eat or if I take a helicopter to work …. again we are at 404 + ppm and rising CO2, the last time the planet was above 400 ppm the oceans were something like 26 meters higher than now, and the average temp was + 5 c above what it is now, it was in fact an ice free world, human habitat would take something like 10,000 years to accommodate this change, BUT we only have about 15 years, before the temp gets us, ignoring the CH4
             Drive as much as ya like, it will change nothing.
             • Paul …

               8 April 2015 at 2:52 pm

               A mighty convenient argument that allows you to wash your hands of any action.
               Bet you voted ACT or National.
               • Robert Atack …

                 8 April 2015 at 3:43 pm

                 No I voted Ban 1080, and I gave them $150 towards the 100 bumper stickers I helped distribute
                 And don’t worry I’ve already had a chat with the cops re the baby formula thing?
                 ho hum

                 A vote for Ban 1080 was the only unselfish vote anyone could have cast, as it wasn’t what I could get for me, but it was to say I didn’t like seeing animals suffering.

                 Just like I would vote for the mass sterilization of you all )
                 • Paul …

                   8 April 2015 at 3:50 pm

                   Have you read Derrick Jensen? Endgame?
                 • The lost sheep …

                   8 April 2015 at 4:00 pm

                   I think I can speak for all of us fools that still retain some tiny delusion of hope when I say thank you for not breeding Robert.
         • Bill 5.2.1.1.2

           8 April 2015 at 3:46 pm

           Population has nothing to do with AGW.

           Spewing CO2 and their equivalents into the atmosphere has quite a lot to do with it though. Pareto’s rule (verified again and again from simple observation across a number of disciplines and situations) suggests that something not far north of 1% of humanity is responsible for around 50% of emissions.

           That means that the activities indulged in by that ~1 – 5% absolutely do matter. Given that I’m not of the profligate ~ 1 – 5%, then what I do or don’t do matters much less. As or the teeming millions across China, India etc, they, in spite o their numbers are contributing 5/8ths of fuck all to AGW. And they never will contribute to the problem, because by the time the economies they are in provide the consumer possibilities we have, we’re long passed cooked.

           Absolutely dire as our situation is, you’re forgetting in your dismal conclusion is the existence of any uncertainty factor. Sure, temperature and Co2 concentration broadly works out/ correlates. But since we live in a world of unknowns and probabilities and since nothing within the incredibly complex scientific field of AGW is 100% certain, then we have no choice as a global community but to ‘screw the head’ and hope to fuck or to a god if that’s your way; to whatever, that the slim margins of probability with regards warming come up on the top of the pack.

           Saying it doesn’t matter because it’s already too late and so we should just do ‘whatever’ absolutely guarantees we cook.
           • Colonial Rawshark 5.2.1.1.2.1

             8 April 2015 at 7:03 pm

             It is very human and very understandable for those stationed at an outpost that is about to be completely overrun to fight to the very last breath of the very last living defender. That action of defiance might buy a bit of time for a few others to escape, it might give others inspiration to organise their own defences, it might make a moral statement for the sake of posterity.

             But no one should be confused about what the likely outcome of the battle is going to be. 3 to 4 deg C climate increase is baked in at this point. And oil is going away for most people within the next 25 years. The combination of the two circumstances is going to be very unpleasant for a lot of people.
             • Robert Atack …

               8 April 2015 at 8:15 pm

               3 to 4 deg C climate increase is baked in at this point

               The scary thing is this # isn’t taking account of the positive feedbacks that are under way, and ‘they’ are way under estimating the global warming potential of CH4 – methane. They say it is 20 times worse than CO2 over 100 years, and 86 times worse over 20 years, alas that may have been close enough back when CH4 remained around .7ppm, saying it had a 12 year life span, now it is something like 1.85ppm global average, with ‘burps’ in the Arctic region of 2.6, soooo the equation needs to be done with the CH4 treated as if it was immortal, because every CH4 molecule that ‘degrades’ is replaced with one plus a little bit more. So CH4 could be as little as 300 times worse than CO2
               Giving us something near 1,000 ppm CO2/CO2e right now.
               I think an ice free Arctic will herald massive methane releases. never before in the earths geological past has there been so much methane ready to burst forth, into an atmosphere with 400+ PPM CO2.
               In the end Greenpeace are just pulling off a publicity stunt to raise donations, if they were truly honest they would make an effort to understand the true situation, then use their corporate USA funds (m$) to educate the masses.
               Greenpeace, IPCC, 350.org, etc are ‘black ops’, titillating the masses into thinking someone is looking after them, giving hope.
         • Molly 5.2.1.1.3

           8 April 2015 at 5:52 pm

           ” contributes to overpopulation”
           Except you don’t define what overpopulation is.

           In relation to any species, I would identify overpopulation is when the environment can no longer accommodate the health of those communities. Many communities who do not relocate geographically, will not have the same concerns about overpopulation that you view. The global issue is too big to consider, and people are powerless to effect change in other communities. You need to recognise that along with sex, reproduction, and connection are a driving force of human beings all over the world. And don’t ignore that consumerism and culture is a major contributor to AGW.

           What you are asking is solely for a drop in population – which is happening in many countries as women become empowered and have access to family planning methods – so your vasectomy is probably less effective than speaking out regarding women’s rights around the world.

           So far, in a fairly broad response I have touched on consumerism, culture, women’s rights and that does not even mention the diversity of solutions that will be put forward to solve the problems we will face.

           You seem stuck on one solution. Which by the way is not necessarily effective. I have a personal acquaintance who got pregnant after her husband’s first attempt, and then had twins after his vasectomy was “Fixed”. (And before you ask – yes – all three were his!).

           Your decision to have a vasectomy is one past, complete action. And you seem to think that it is the only option available. That is what makes you so difficult to agree with, and is what is limiting your effectiveness at promoting change.
           • Bill 5.2.1.1.3.1

             8 April 2015 at 6:08 pm

             …and that does not even mention the diversity of solutions that will be put forward to solve the problems we will face.

             You had me right up to that point 😉 .

             Any ‘solutions’ that are put up (and I’ll put my shirt on this) are going to predicated on protecting the market economy. Green growth… techno fixes etc. Bottom line, devastating in it’s simplicity, is to stop burning fossil fuels. I mean…that’s it. There is nothing hard or complicated about it.

             But then, apparently the world is unimaginable without a market economy and growth and so then, every ‘solution’ then becomes complicated and hard and…no fucking solution at all.

             As an example of what I mean, read this tripe that the’The Guardian’s’ put out in its series of concern and hand-wringing about AGW.

             http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/apr/08/can-world-economy-survive-without-fossil-fuels
             • Molly …

               8 April 2015 at 6:32 pm

               Bill, don’t think solutions will come from government. Like you, I don’t think the solutions will come from up above, they are too far removed, and are given baubles for continuing from that perspective.

               Was almost laughed out of the room when I mentioned to one of Auckland Council’s top planners that we need to include consideration of climate change in the 30 year Auckland Plan vision. Transition Towns was regarded as a joke. If planners are so far behind the eight ball, we’ll have to disregard them.

               I’m more of a grassroots kind of person when looking for solutions, I think communities will be the first to realise, push for and create change. Some of the movements on filmsforaction.org are creating positive change around the world, they provide me with a brief respite from the anxiety that pervades this issue.

               As an aside, having interesting discussions with my oldest about career and income choices at the moment. Very difficult to weigh up their need for independence (and employment options) with means to live according to their values and priorities.

               I’ll update you when we figure that one out…
           • The lost sheep 5.2.1.1.3.2

             8 April 2015 at 6:49 pm

             Robert has already informed you that he voted Anti – 1080 Molly / Bill.

             As such, you can be certain that you are absolutely wasting your time attempting any kind of fact based genuine debate with him!
             • Molly …

               9 April 2015 at 9:11 am

               Hi TLS,

               Noted that voting choice. Seems to be that he is a one-issue, one solution person. You are probably right about entering into discussion with him, but any long-term solutions need to at least consider those with such narrow perspectives.
               • marty mars …

                 9 April 2015 at 9:23 am

                 doomers are like deniers – forget them and focus on those who can at least see the issues and want to do something (even internally such as accepting) about it imo otherwise it is derail after derail and the train never goes nowhere – which suits them just fine.
           • Robert Atack 5.2.1.1.3.3

             8 April 2015 at 7:01 pm

             You seem stuck on one solution
             You have me wrong Molly
             I’m not saying you should all be sterilized as a way of ‘saving the planet’ or whatever you have hope of.
             I’m saying the only way to reduce future human suffering, is if the human wasn’t born in the first place. We are all in this shit storm together, the most pain free humane way of avoiding ‘The Road/ 22after’ type of death is not to be born.
             If we stop all CO2 emissions tonight we would still be facing starvation or cannibalism, and all the fun things that go with it.
             Here is an interesting list http://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/311m7d/collapse_data_cheat_sheet/

             When the oil tankers stop coming to New Zealand, we will find we have maybe 4 million to many mouths to feed, than our stuffed farm land can produce food for, we eat oil http://oilcrash.com/articles/eating.htm

             @ 57 I have the same life expectancy as a healthy new born baby, which sadly isn’t very long.
             • Molly …

               9 April 2015 at 9:24 am

               ” ….you should all be sterilized as a way of ‘saving the planet’ or whatever you have hope of…”.

               Your language regarding your proposal is indicative of your outlook. you rather than we. I have had these discussions and thoughts before, but usually discuss them with others face to face. Can’t read your intent in your words as they “sound” shrill to me.

               You talk about producing food as if it is a magical process. Find out how Cuba dealt with the oil embargo. Read weka’s links to farming methods that replace the carbon into the soil, go and have a look at Vandana Shiva’s work, and permaculture.

               For someone who is so certain that the only answer is doom and gloom, you seem spectacularly uninformed as to those who refrain from the blame game and are just getting on with doing something. If your choice is to spend the remainder of your life (however long it is) throwing the toys out of the cot and bawling incessantly, then you have already reduced the quality of your life and the likelihood of good human connection with those around you. And in the end, that connection is the most power most individuals have during their lifetime. That is wasteful and – pointless.

               (I also note that you have been over on TDB ringing your bell of doom. So I’m assuming this is a process you are working through, from the sounds of it – by yourself – and it will take a while.)
               • Robert Atack …

                 9 April 2015 at 10:40 am

                 >Find out how Cuba dealt with the oil embargo<
                 Yawn …….. I was pointing out to the govt, or anyone that would listen about Cuba 10 years ago
                 ie _ THE EXAMPLE OF CUBA
                 http://www.oilcrash.com/articles/threats.htm
                 How we might do that is suggested by perhaps the best recent historical example of a society experiencing a fossil-fuel famine. In the late 1980s, farmers in Cuba were highly reliant on cheap fuels and petrochemicals imported from the Soviet Union, using more agrochemicals per acre than their American counterparts. In 1990, as the Soviet empire collapsed, Cuba lost those imports and faced an agricultural crisis. The population lost 20 pounds on average and malnutrition was nearly universal, especially among young children. The Cuban GDP fell by 85 percent and inhabitants of the island nation experienced a substantial decline in their material standard of living. end snip

                 I guess I gave away maybe 100 copies of that Cudan doco ?
                 I gave away maybe 16,000 DVDs over about 6 years, sent over 500 into parliament, this being one example. http://oilcrash.com/articles/you_tube.htm
                 And to all you people who are abusing me, I challenge you to do half as much, alas I will win this argument, as you don't have enough time to catch up with my efforts.
                 Here is another one http://oilcrash.com/articles/mystery.htm
                 This effort cost my $900.00 http://oilcrash.com/articles/algore01.htm
                 Again I tried to get help to educate the kids http://oilcrash.com/articles/concernd.htm
                 This is a list of politicians and media people I gave info to http://oilcrash.com/articles/whatinfo.htm
                 • Molly …

                   9 April 2015 at 10:51 am

                   …”to all you people who are abusing me…”
                   Robert, we are criticising your approach. Due to your responses, I’m surmising that you consider the $25K you spent to be ineffective.

                   Do you ask yourself why, and whether your energy can be directed to something that will have the result you crave?

                   Anyone involved in any kind of community information, rights advocate work or movements understands that much of your individual (usually volunteer) work will fall on infertile ground. It is only when it is picked up by others that the work flourishes and grows.
                   Ultimately, a successful movement will take on a life of it’s own.’

                   (As an aside. I too, appreciated the Cuban documentary. It still informs me)

                   Did you have any success along those lines? And are you sure, that others that you did get in contact with did not go off and do something themselves?
                   • Robert Atack …

                     9 April 2015 at 11:06 am

                     One couple I know took their kids out of school, and are now enjoying their last years together, they just came back from a 2 week trip to China, no need to save for retirement, or university a
                     Another couple I know are even happier they decided not to have children.
                     Apart from those 2 examples I can’t think of anything positive to come out of what I’ve done.
                     I keep my website alive only to show people someone was giving it a shot ‘back then’ I have’t updated it for 8 or so years, as there is no point.
                     http://www.oilcrash.com
                   • Molly …

                     9 April 2015 at 4:41 pm

                     I think I’ve come across your website in my ethernet travels… 🙂

                     Your examples of positive outcomes – seem to me to be fatalistic concessions. But as you probably realise, that is entirely a matter of perspective.

                     I don’t claim to have all the answers, but I do believe that we are a sum of our actions and our moves towards connections. If you are insistent on everyone taking stock and saying “we’re F****d”, then you ignore their own perspectives on how to deal with what they have been dealt.

                     You also seem to be well informed, but it also seems that your vast reservoir of information is unlikely to be tapped. That is a pity, both for yourself and for those you may have reached and influenced.

                     I’m spending time with you, because I recognise your comments as the voice I hear in my head sometimes. But it is usually tempered fairly fast, and never makes it out of my mouth or in the comments section via the keyboard. On this platform, I’m trying to engage with people rather than winning any argument. I think you are on a losing track if that is what you expect. And if it isn’t, then why are you commenting?

                     (TBH, probably engaging with you because you remind me of conversations I have with someone I’m very close to, and the affection is being somewhat blithely transferred…)
                   • Robert Atack []

                     9 April 2015 at 9:00 pm

                     Okay how about this
                     I don’t care if you want to abseil down a building while unfurling a banner, do a Zena and sit up a pole, climb on to an oil rig in the Arctic, chase Japaneses fishing ships, or any of the real cool things people do to protest this or that. But saying you are doing it in the name of the planet and future generations etc etc is just showing you/they don’t understand our true situation.
                     Inside of 50 – 100 years the oceans are going to be filled with jelly fish at best or just so toxic nothing will live? So as bloody sad as it is, trying to ‘save the whales’ is pointless, and cursing around in a boat spewing bunker oil smoke all over the whales environment isn’t helping them. But boy it must be fun, and all the little ‘activie’ will be able to dine out on their experiences for years.

                     I’ve proven it to myself time and time again, and watched way nicer people than me get to the same place I got – nowhere!
                     One old friend use to say “No not bad enough yet” after a natural disaster, meaning it is going to take something very catastrophic (there’s that cat word) for the masses, then the politicians to wake up, How many meltdowns are we seeing at Fukushima ?
                     That is why I’m saying you are just kidding yourselves and your children if you think doing something is going to do anything.
                     The masses needed to be awake maybe 100 years ago.
                     And the root problem to why it is impossible to turn this death train around is because humans have ‘hope’. The climate deniers ‘hope’ all there planet fucking ideas will come to fruition, and they will make a profit out of it all. While the ‘left’ think if we all sit around singing “come by yar” and navel gaze, while storing our bean seeds, or protesting the destruction – that their ‘just being’ has contributed to, -of what is destroying this human friendly environment.
                     And as far as blaming the 1-5% there are something like 2.5 billion combustion engines, and maybe 5-6 billion people hooked into industrial agriculture, remove the oil from that lot and you might find only 1-5% left alive ….
                     Have you read the Hirsch report? http://oilcrash.com/articles/hirsch.htm Robert Hirsch said we needed to start something like 50 years before peak oil if we had a hope of maintaining the food chain etc, we are now about 58 years behind that idea.
                     Robert also said in an interview “We have a people problem, the people do not want to know”
                     People will maintain hope while they clutch their stone soup, and hearing the shower door locked shut, it is only when they are dodging gas canisters that they wake up. That is Derek Jensen’s message.
                     It would be great if – I – S – didn’t have so much hope, they might stop killing people, hope drives wars, it might be hope that launches a first strike nuclear attack ?
                     or brings Ebola to NZ
                     All i’m saying is the generation being born now, and to tell the truth anyone under 60 are going to suffer/die from climate change/peak energy in their expected 70 year lifetimes.
                     It sucks having children at this point in our evolution, it would just be nice if people could take their heads out of the sand, and do the necessary research, to 1- work out how deep in the shit we are, then 2 – understand that ‘that’ was as good as it is ever going to get, and putting more people on Earth than it can support, when we could be as much as 7 billion over populated already (currently 7.22 ish billion), is just pointless,
                     It would be great if hope didn’t inspire more children.
                   • Molly …

                     9 April 2015 at 10:13 pm

                     I get it. I agree with what you say about the likely outcome.

                     I understand that you are not used to being so powerless.

                     But I don’t think that many of us have that in us. What we do have the power to change is how we treat everyone while we are still here.

                     You are treating everyone disdainfully because they are not completely on board with you.

                     Are you really still confused about why you got so little traction in your efforts?
                   • Robert Atack []

                     10 April 2015 at 8:26 am

                     Are you really still confused about why you got so little traction in your efforts?

                     Like I said – There have been better people than me saying the same stuff, way better than me, and they have ended up at the same place – thinking it is all a waste of time, because ‘the people’ just do not want to know.
                     One guy even topped himself because of the futility of it all, you might know him – Mike Ruppert .
                     Derek Wilson, is another one who did his best over many years, his last effort (@88) cost him over $5,000.00, he publishing 500 copies of this – http://oilcrash.com/articles/wilson08.htm in a booklet, which he then posted to ‘everyone’ from FJK down
                     Powerless New Zealand http://oilcrash.com/powrless.htm … fail
                     Another one – http://howtoboilafrog.com/ … fail
                     This was published around 1999, even Andrew Little has got a copy http://oilcrash.com/articles/bbb_syn.htm …. fail
                     Transition Towns was another great leap backwards, with one of the ‘leaders’ of the NZ movement happy to have his daughter conceived AFTER he found out about peak oil etc ?
                     Age of Stupid, a very accurate title for the movie but again …. fail
                     So unless you can come up with some earth shattering idea that hasn’t been tried several times before – you are just farting against thunder.
                     Maybe you could become the Vice President of the USA, then go on a global speaking tour …. fail
                     I consider myself in good company, as much as we are all failures.
                     I ‘got it’ from one throw away line off the radio “check out this radical website- http://www.vhemt.org” then with a little bit of spare time, an open mind, and the ability to see outside the box, I spent maybe 3 months reading shit.
                     I’ve given you the opportunity to read/watch/listen to basically a library worth of information … fail
                   • Molly …

                     10 April 2015 at 4:53 pm

                     You missed replying to:
                     ” What we do have the power to change is how we treat everyone while we are still here. “

                     FYI:
                     – Watched the vice president documentary, and have the book.
                     – Watched the documentary on Hubbert and felt compassion for his life and death.
                     – Own and read Five Holocausts by Derek Wilson.
                     (.. and many other climate change books)

                     Like most everyone else on this site I get it.

                     Like most everyone here, I don’t take out my anxiety on others by firstly: arrogantly assuming I have the one and only solution, secondly: by ranting on and on about it.

                     If you want to advocate considered family planning, and be effective at it you have to do better than what you are doing. No one of procreational age or considered thinking will give you the time of day, because you are almost frothing with rage.

                     (And please don’t reply to the last sentence saying you are frothing with rage, we are already aware of that.)
       • Paul 5.2.1.2

         8 April 2015 at 4:21 pm

         “I have a feeling that this powerlessness is not something you have experienced very much and it is disengaging you from useful dialogue.”

         Sounds exactly what robert is doing
6. saveNZ 6

   7 April 2015 at 8:42 pm

   Go Greenpeace!

   The bastards even tried to get their charitable status denied!

   Funny how ports of Auckland can just take our Harbour and that’s ok, but if do a song like ‘Planet Key’ you are harassed off the airways and have to also take it to court to get back on, and if you are a long running recognised charity like Greenpeace then the government tries to say (unsuccessfully) promotion of disarmament and peace was not charitable.

   Am I the only one noticing such a massive discrepancy?

   If you are a well connected company you can say Fuck you to the people but if you are the little guy or fighting for some good in the world our government has all the tax payers money in the world to unsuccessfully litigate the little guy. (with our money).

   Greenpeace has won a long-running battle to have its political advocacy recognised as a charitable act with a decision released by the Supreme Court this afternoon.
   More used to fighting for environmental causes, Greenpeace has been fighting the definition of its campaigning activities as non-charitable for nearly 10 years.

   The organisation was one of many which lost its charitable status under changes to the Charities Act in 2005. The Charities Commission determined Greenpeace did not meet the new standards because its promotion of disarmament and peace was not charitable.

   In 2010 Greenpeace took the Commission to the High Court to challenge the dismissal of its application for charity status, but the court found its activities were more political than educational, and therefore not charitable.

   The decision was overturned by the Court of Appeal in November 2012, allowing Greenpeace to apply for re-registration. However, the court found the organisation could only apply for charitable status if political advocacy was not its primary purpose.

   Greenpeace challenged that finding in the Supreme Court last year, arguing limits should not be placed on political advocacy.

   The court’s decision was delivered today and clarified the definition of a charity, saying political advocacy should not exclude an organisation from achieving charity status.

   Chief Justice Sian Elias says a “blanket exclusion is unnecessary”.
   Greenpeace will now decide whether to reapply for charity status, which brings financial benefits.

   Executive director Bunny McDiarmid says the decision “makes New Zealand’s democracy a little stronger”.

   “It means that the Supreme Court has now recognised that trying to change our world for the better, and taking on government to do that, is a public good.”

   Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/greenpeace-wins-final-charity-court-battle-2014080614#ixzz3WbvDtS6A
7. johnm 7

   8 April 2015 at 11:01 am

   A new record high of 404.35ppm was achieved on 6th April, as the fossil fuel mania continued.

   Annual CO2 usually peaks in May, so there is plenty of time to break through 405ppm, and maybe even break through 406ppm.

   https://scripps.ucsd.edu/programs/keelingcurve/
   • johnm 7.1

     8 April 2015 at 12:27 pm

     Where does all the CO2 come from?

     ” We live in a time of what might be called The Great Burning. However, we tend to ignore the tremendous inferno blazing around us. Most of the combustion occurs out of sight and out of mind, in hundreds of millions of automobile, truck, aircraft, and ship engines; in tens of thousands of coal or gas-fired power plants that provide the electricity that runs our computers, smart phones, refrigerators, air conditioners, and televisions; in furnaces that warm us in the winter; in factories that spew out products we are constantly urged to buy. Add all this burning together and it amounts to the energy equivalent of torching a quarter of the Amazon rainforest every year. In the United States, the energy from annual fossil fuel combustion roughly equates to the solar energy taken up by all biomass in the nation. It’s a conflagration unlike anything that has ever occurred before in Earth’s history, and it is the very basis of our modern existence.

     Obviously, it would be impossible to continue consuming the world’s forests, year in and year out, at a rate that far outstrips their pace of re-growth. We’d soon run out of forest. Yet the Great Burning has persisted and grown, decade after decade, because its fuel consists of millions of years’ worth of stored and concentrated ancient biomass. ”

     http://commondreams.org/views/2015/04/07/great-burning-rising-greatest-challenge-humanity-has-ever-faced
8. Robert Atack 8

   9 April 2015 at 7:54 am

   This might help you understand ?
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2615&v=a9PshoYtoxo
   Published on Aug 5, 2014
   Researcher Jennifer Hynes offers a riveting, comprehensive, scientific Power Point presentation about the Arctic atmospheric “methane global warming veil”, a spiral of runaway global warming.
   • Robert Atack 8.1

     9 April 2015 at 8:32 am

     @ 43 min Jennifer talks about the massive amounts of methane off the east coast of the South Island NZ
     New Zealand could become a methane ‘hot spot’ like the East Siberian Arctic Shelf, Which may be the reason NZ is about 5C above ‘normal’ at the moment?

     http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.nz/2015/04/world-weather.html

     It is such a shame we can’t package hope and export it, cause there is a surplus of the stuff in NZ, compared to the rest of the world … have we hit peak hope yet?
9. Robert Atack 9

   9 April 2015 at 8:14 am

   And here is what I’ve done over the years (until I retired), to try and wake the masses http://oilcrash.com/articles/thankyou.htm
   I’m not pointing this out to say I’m anything but a no body, I’m just showing you it was all a fucking wast of time.
   • Corokia 9.1

     9 April 2015 at 9:15 am

     Fine Robert- you’ve decided it’s all hopeless (and you may be right) and you’ve decided to sneer at and deride those who have decided to fight on.

     Colonial Rawshark put it well …
     “But no one should be confused about what the likely outcome of the battle is going to be. 3 to 4 deg C climate increase is baked in at this point. And oil is going away for most people within the next 25 years. The combination of the two circumstances is going to be very unpleasant for a lot of people.”

     It’s going to be dire, but New Zealand’s climate is moderated by the ocean that surrounds it and if some humans have a chance of surviving the coming chaos it could be here. So by all means you can personally give up all hope, but shut the fuck up and let the rest of us get on with doing something.

     I’ve got a couple of days off, I’m going back out into the garden to collect dried beans , choose the best for seed stock, to dig compost and mulch the winter veges, stack firewood, see how the coppice growth is going, check on the cuttings and seedlings in the shade house, work out where to plant the almond trees I’m ordering. Later I’ll help my daughter with her knitting, maybe she’ll have to live like the early pioneers here (but with a much more unpredictable climate.) There will probably be climate refugees pouring in here and many people trying to survive as peasant farmers, with famine, disease and so on.

     I’ll write to the paper about climate change again, try and get a few more of my fellow citizens to understand that business as usual is destroying our kids future. I wish I could counter the massive effort made by advertising to push the consumerist mantra, that is a huge part of the problem.

     But give up now- NO WAY!
     You can give up, but do us all a favour and do it quietly.
     • Robert Atack 9.1.1

       9 April 2015 at 9:57 am

       So you obviously haven’t taken the opportunity to get an education have you.
       Watch what Jennifer has to say about New Zealand’s methane clatherates off the east coast, as that stuff increases its ‘melting’ NZ is going to get a shit load hotter
       This winter will break temperature records, and next summers drought will be a horror story
       BAU HAS destroyed your children’s future.

       All I’m saying is bringing a child into this shit hole of a world is fucking insane.

       I’ve got a couple of days off as well, I’m going to read my book about dragons, Elves, magicians, and demons on the planet Midkemia 😉
10. johnm 10

    9 April 2015 at 7:49 pm

    ” My Reasons for Climbing Up Shell’s 100-Meter High Oil Rig ”

    ” Becoming an adult in the tweens of the 21st century, I was a witness to the abundance of reports that spelled out the gravity of climate change. When I started studying environmental science in 2012, I began to comprehend the magnitude and complexity with which climate change will affect our natural world and survival. One particularly humid morning I found myself listening as a classmate read a report emphasizing that if we continue to burn fossil fuels at our current rate, around 80% of species would go extinct by 2050(!). You might be wondering what kind of species, but it doesn’t matter when 80% are gone, we’re completely screwed. I felt my heart sink as our future became even more terrifying. This became a regular experience, with each new report I read the science looked scarier, more dramatic and more certain of a catastrophic future with two, four or even six degrees of warming. ”

    http://commondreams.org/views/2015/04/08/my-reasons-climbing-shells-100-meter-high-oil-rig
11. Corokia 11

    10 April 2015 at 11:20 am

    I continue to educate myself about what we are doing to the ecosystems that support us. One useful resource is http://www.ecoshock.org and there are many links to follow from there. As I understand it the situation is dire, but unless all humans are instantaneously wiped out in some mega event, there will be some sort of descent into energy and food shortages. Trying to survive a bit longer into that is not navel gazing and neither is advocating for political change to try and slow the descent. You seem to be under the illusion that you are talking to a bunch of pollyannas here, you’re not, we know we’re probably fucked, but it ain’t over till its over. And whether its sensible or not, if you think people are going to stop making babies in the meantime, you obviously don’t know biology very well.

• Comments are now closed

• Log in
• Donate
• Contribute post

• Articles RSS