How To Get There 12/5/19

59 comments on “How To Get There 12/5/19 ”

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1. Janet 1

   12 May 2019 at 9:48 am

   Farmers know how many sheep or cows they can carry per hectare with the animals remaining in good condition and health and without supplementary feeding from off the farm.

   Do we know how many people per hectare we can carry in New Zealand without supplementary food importation and without further destruction of our remaining natural native wilderness, our resources and our environment ?
   • Robert Guyton 1.1

     12 May 2019 at 10:06 am

     Good question, Janet. Probably, no one does know but in my opinion, many, many more than are living here presently, only not under the present conditions of citification and agriculture. A reformed Aotearoa with people living in an integrated system, could maintain large numbers of people in a long term, mutually beneficial relationship.
   • Pat 1.2

     12 May 2019 at 10:51 am

     Id suggest no one knows or has even seriously studied it but a simple starting point may be the 'stocking rate'(human) pre industrial revolution…on that basis NZ could carry a little over 4 million from memory
     • Robert Guyton 1.2.1

       12 May 2019 at 11:02 am

       Could be, though I'd factor in what we've learned since then in terms of food production methods and the vastly increased range of food plants now available to us which says to me that we could host many more than the pre-industrial landscape could hold, if only we applied our knowledge wisely. Our present systems are far from that state.
       • Pat 1.2.1.1

         12 May 2019 at 11:07 am

         Thats possible….but without the required study it is impossible to quantify. As you of all people will be aware the requirements are not only human but the need for wilderness to support the necessary biodiversity.
         • Robert Guyton 1.2.1.1.1

           12 May 2019 at 12:01 pm

           Pat – I suspect that with intelligent management, the integration between humans and wilderness would result in an even more diverse and vibrant environment than exists anywhere on earth at the present moment.That probably sounds a big call, but that's what I see.
           • Pat 1.2.1.1.1.1

             12 May 2019 at 12:06 pm

             That suggests to me a form of hunter gatherer society rather than agricultural which would indicate a lower carrying capacity not higher….that may not be what youre inferring however
             • Robert Guyton …

               12 May 2019 at 12:19 pm

               I don't mean hunter-gatherers, I'm thinking of a form yet to be observed and described, as it is yet to materialise. It will be fresh and new and reflective of now (or soon) rather than a model already tried, though naturally, it will contain elements of past and present societies. We have intelligence, artificial intelligence, historical records, memory and experience plus a global network of transport to aid us in creating unique forms of society that best suit the present moment and the needs of all beings.

               I reckon
           • Stuart Munro. 1.2.1.1.1.2

             12 May 2019 at 12:25 pm

             Yup. The nativist purists worry me, frankly. NZ was periodically wracked with hunger until the potato arrived, as were many European areas prior to the importation of maize. It's is a diverse collection of useful plants and domesticable species that enable a wealthy life in most environments.

             In the days that NZ set folk like Hayward to work on kiwifruit this was understood. Now we have the wibbling of economists for augury – I've a feeling examining their entrails would be more constructive in the long term.
             • Robert Guyton …

               12 May 2019 at 12:31 pm

               Something reflective on the surface of their livers, or a miraculous organism in their gut-flora?
               • Stuart Munro. …

                 12 May 2019 at 1:15 pm

                 More that their neoliberal soothsaying, though no less odorous than their entrails, will not in the course of time contribute to making the garden thrive.

                 I've a feeling that catching and composting may be a good way to deal with other pests too, from flies and wasps to rats and mice. Weeds being only green manure, recycling other pests is only consistent.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   12 May 2019 at 2:58 pm

                   Just as blustery winds stimulate trees to greater health and better form, Neolibs are the squalls to the coming garden of earthly delights
                   • Stuart Munro. …

                     12 May 2019 at 3:38 pm

                     There are going to be a lot of squalls coming to NZ if the AGW fix doesn't go in. But we're not seeing the kind of attitude that could create a workable response from the wretched charlatans in Wellington.

                     I wonder if you've had a chance to look over NZ Transport Agency Report 497 (2012)? Contains a breathtaking methodological error. And these are the clowns whose supposed expertise sets the policies inflicted on our wretched nation. Reading that report one might be led to believe road was more carbon efficient than rail, and practically on a par with sea. Until you spot the error.
                   • gsays …

                     12 May 2019 at 6:28 pm

                     Thanks Janet, Pat, Robert, Stuart. Wonderful exchange.

                     I have just got home after a very long lunch service 10.30-3.30. It got kinda sad seeing table after table, out with their Mums with their faces in screens, showing their Mum the top of their heads.

                     It is heartening to know there are folk that have their 'heads up' eyes open and are on to it.
                   • greywarshark …

                     13 May 2019 at 12:14 pm

                     Is it more personal if you say earthy delights, as in with hands in the garden' the answer is in the soil!

                     The classic BBC radio comedy series "Beyond Our Ken" used to feature a gardener called Arthur Fallowfield, played by Kenneth Williams. His response to anyone who asked him anything was, always, (in a cod West Country accent) "the answer lies in the soil".

                     Did you ever hear this on steam radio? 1958-1964 I think with Round the Horne etc. I just throw this link in which might be interesting. Haven't listened to it – no time.

                     https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/reports/science/field_20040402.shtml
             • Pingau …

               13 May 2019 at 11:36 am

               I know I am late to this thread but I am usually out and about on Sunday.

               Stuart Munroe – if by nativist purists you mean people that advocate for native NZ flora and fauna then one of the greatest threats to our unique flora (80% or so is endemic) is invasive pest plants. I attended a talk by Phillip Hulme the other day and the figures show that of all the islands in the world, the NZ islands have the most pest plants by far.

               Interestingly though, the large majority of the escapes into our agricultural and wilderness land are from garden ornamentals. So I guess food and other useful plants are less of a threat but still need to be checked thouroughly before being allowed into NZ.

               It is very expensive to apply for permission to bring in new species so some people sometimes smuggle them in. Perhaps if there were a different (cheaper for the applicant) system, it could improve the whole process and allow new foods, etc AND protect our beleaguered biodiversity.

               The ornamental escapees also need more taxpayer money as well of course to better control them and stop new weeds building up to the point of naturlization.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 13 May 2019 at 12:53 pm

                 You make good points, Pingau and your name suggests an interest in native plants; I'm guessing you frequent dunes and don't favour marram grass

                 With regard pest mammals, sheep and cattle must be the most culpable in terms of environmental damage here in NZ. Catering for their needs has resulted in a massive loss of forest habitat. You might be interested in an alternative view regarding invasive plants: there's a book called The New Wild and it's subtitled, "How invasive plants will save the planet". You'll already be squirming, I'm guessing, but it's pretty interesting.
                 • Pingau …

                   13 May 2019 at 1:45 pm

                   Thanks Robert, good spotting on my name and yes I do love a good sand dune 😀.

                   I am aware of the book you mention and haven't read it yet but can confess to being sceptical about it's thesis. In the past I have found people who think 'weeds' are just badly maligned plants to have a quite a eurocentric view of plants and also to view plants as interchangeable objects (rather than parts of an ecosystem evolved over millennia etc etc).

                   Also, a stitch in time saves nine and all that … don't think we need to be spraying and so on more than is necessary.

                   Regarding the animals, I agree with you about the loss of habitat for agriculture especially on the lowlands but it's those wicked 😉 little rodents, mustalids and so on that put the nail in the coffin of many of our birds and lizards. Over time with glaciations and sea level changes many of our species must have been confined to small areas possibly similar to what is happening now with human land use and survived that.

                   Anyhow better go and do my job! Later after work I will be gathering some delicious exotic plant fare and fungi from the red zone in Christchurch – walnuts, birch boletes, mushrooms, apples, figs and feijoas.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     13 May 2019 at 2:00 pm

                     Mmmmm, boletes! Speaking of earthy delights, I checked out my favourite morel spot yesterday (my only morel spot it has to be said; those little gems are few and far between) but found nothing. I'll not give up trying though!
                   • Pingau []

                     13 May 2019 at 2:51 pm

                     Sounds good Robert. I'm just starting to learn some of the easier fungi – it is incredibly enjoyable (and edibly enjoyable).
               • Stuart Munro. …

                 13 May 2019 at 4:18 pm

                 Hi Pingau, yeah I'm aware of the exotic invaders – the fruiting species are mostly ok, but kiwifruit is pretty invasive, and is spread by birds. Nativism seems to colour some of our current conservation policy, but the garden of earthly delights necessarily contains fruiting exotics. Not all ornamentals are pernicious either – spraying the Eglington lupins was not DoC's finest hour.
   • mac1 1.3

     12 May 2019 at 5:34 pm

     A post which puts humans in with animals such as sheep and cows as stock units is a little alarming…….. Whose table shall we grace?
     • greywarshark 1.3.1

       12 May 2019 at 6:10 pm

       We don't want to end up on the table like the lover in Peter Greenway's film. I throw in a new word that sounds like something on the menu, but maybe you will know.

       The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover (1989) – IMDb

       https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097108/

       "The Cook the Thief His Wife & Her Lover" is one of the most grotesque, eschatological, bizarre and weird films that I have ever seen. But it is also absolutely original and mesmerizing, with intense use of colors, and with the contrast of vulgarity and art.
       • mac1 1.3.1.1

         12 May 2019 at 10:42 pm

         Yes, I've seen it. I've just come from a performance of Phantom of the Opera which has some of those elements. People don't believe what they see on stage but I was a character in "Aspects of Love" by Andrew Lloyd Webber and I mentioned today that our producer said that everything that went on in that script he knew of happening in our little town. The beautiful thing about acting is that you can play characters most unlike oneself, nor we would we sometimes wish to be like.
         • greywarshark 1.3.1.1.1

           13 May 2019 at 11:51 am

           Wasn't that – happening in our town – a large part of Ronald Hugh Morrieson's writings, a mixture of imagination and reality in The Scarecrow? Did you know all the back story of that – just been reading it, thanks to Wikipedia. Left to most Hawera residents you would hardly know he ever existed.

           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Hugh_Morrieson
           • mac1 1.3.1.1.1.1

             13 May 2019 at 12:09 pm

             I shall have to reread all those novels etc that I read in NZ Lit in 1968! Coal Flat would be another, and Sargeson. Thanks for the prompt, GWS. Being a Hawera man, Morrieson would have known my great-uncle, or vice versa, who had been a high-ranking policeman and multi-linguist, with a similar problem………..
             • greywarshark …

               13 May 2019 at 12:19 pm

               Ah NZ – with only two degrees of separation (not six). Your great-uncle would probably have known my grandfather returned from WW1.
2. Robert Guyton 2

   12 May 2019 at 10:01 am

   The Fermi paradox – pfffft
3. Robert Guyton 3

   12 May 2019 at 10:11 am

   Yesterday, Milly kindly directed us to the works and words of Derrick Jensen. I followed her direction and found some very interesting ideas. Here, Derrick discusses how to get there or what to do, kind of, sort of…

   So, Derrick, what exactly do you want us to do?

   "I want you to make the time to find what or whom you love — whether it’s salmon, sturgeon, a patch of forest, survivors of domestic violence, your own indigenous tradition, migratory songbirds, coral reefs, or Appalachian mountaintops — and I want you to dig in and defend your beloved with your life, and, if necessary, with your death. I want for your actions to positively contribute to the health and defense of the planet. I want for you to figure out how to make it so the world — the real, physical world — is a better place because you were born, and because you lived here.

   All of this leads to the point, which is, put simply, to do something. Several years ago I was giving a talk to several hundred people about bringing down civilization. The audience was excited. The atmosphere was like a rock concert. I suddenly stopped and asked, “How many of you have ever filed a timber-sale appeal?” Four or five. “How many have worked on a rape crisis hotline?” Ten women. “How many have done indigenous support work?” Three or four. And so on. It’s all well and good to talk about the Great Glorious Revolution, but what are you doing right now?

   The big dividing line is not and has never been between those who advocate more or less militant forms of resistance, or between mainstream and grassroots activists. The dividing line is between those who do something and those who do nothing.

   Do something.

   That’s what I want you to do. That’s what the anadromous fish and the Appalachian mountaintops want you to do too."

   http://www.derrickjensen.org/2009/12/50-simple-ways-to-get-off/
   • Dennis Frank 3.1

     12 May 2019 at 12:00 pm

     I liked his autobiography best: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60970.A_Language_Older_Than_Words

     I suggest reading the first page of reviews to get the gist. Any boy who survives being continually raped by his father throughout his childhood, to eventually persevere at leading a positive adult life, is a source of real learning about human potential.

     For me, it made his bleak vision of humanity comprehensible. I also own The Culture of Make Believe, and my bookmark 2/3 of the way in proves it worth reading even if that was years ago. I have Endgame Vol 1 which I haven't wanted to read yet (since I'm too optimistic, probably). His nature rapport is authentic. He could do with an extremely sophisticated spiritual advisor (if such things exist)…
     • Robert Guyton 3.1.1

       12 May 2019 at 12:07 pm

       That's a very fair summation, Dennis. Every one of the well known, useful commenters on this issue has imperfections in their story and life but accepting the gems of their thinking and pardoning their "failings" and empathising with tribulations is a service we readers can offer.
   • Incognito 3.2

     12 May 2019 at 2:47 pm

     This may sound flippant, but not doing something is still doing something. Not in the sense of ‘either you are a full-blown environmental activist or you are part of the problem we are fighting and we will fight you too’, for example, but in the sense of the fact that most of our ‘doing’ takes place sub-consciously – we go through life mostly in auto-pilot mode with little input from our frontal cortex and more from our limbic system.

     I won’t quote Gandhi again, but I see no real distinction between thoughts and actions, between being and doing.

     The real power is in doing things collectively, together, rather than a myriad of individual actions like some kind of random chaotic Brownian motion. When we act in concert, with other humans and with our (immediate) environment, that is when we will see change, transformation, evolution. I don’t just believe that this is the way to go, as if by choice or free will, but it is innate to us, inevitable, and our destiny, or our nature, if you like.

     The kernels for such collective action, or movement, happen to spring up synchronously and act as catalysts. Initially, this is not evident and we don’t become immediately aware of new concepts and leadership arising more or less at the same time. But when these reach a critical mass in our collective conscience is when we will see major change(s). We will act with purpose and meaning towards a common destiny, which is unknown and cannot be known as such because it a new state of doing–being …

     So, what can we do? What should we do? I think that to be honest to ourselves and each other, to have an open mind and raised awareness, are key to be able to see the signposts – in a dark time, the eye begins to see (Theodore Roethke). That, and the courage to break with old habits.
     • Robert Guyton 3.2.1

       12 May 2019 at 2:55 pm

       "The kernels for such collective action, or movement, happen to spring up synchronously… "

       Amen to that.
4. Robert Guyton 4

   12 May 2019 at 10:15 am

   Derrick also discusses hypocrisy, something every person involved in protesting oil extraction, mining etc gets accused of, overtly or covertly. It's good.

   "Many environmental activists struggle with the hypocrisy of participating at all in a culture that’s so destructive. Does that bother you at all?

   Sure, I feel hypocritical sometimes, but so what? There’s this idea among so much of the resistance that the role of an activist is to manifest some sort of moral purity. But the truth is, I don’t care about purity; I care about living in a world that has more salmon and more migratory songbirds each year than the year before.

   The job of an activist is not to manifest moral purity, but to confront and take down oppressive systems of power.

   Several years ago I got in a big argument with a guy who said that because I use toilet paper, I am just as culpable for deforestation as the CEO of Weyerhaeuser. I didn’t know how to answer him for quite a while, but finally the answer came to me. The answer is that, yes, I am culpable, but not because I use toilet paper. I’m culpable because I consume the flesh of the tree without fulfilling my end of the bargain by stopping Weyerhaeuser."

   http://www.derrickjensen.org/2008/08/tremendous-fun-to-fight-back/
   • RedLogix 4.1

     12 May 2019 at 1:19 pm

     but to confront and take down oppressive systems of power.

     And when everything looks like an 'oppressive system of power'?
     • Robert Guyton 4.1.1

       12 May 2019 at 1:34 pm

       "everything" ?
5. Robert Guyton 5

   12 May 2019 at 10:20 am

   I'm swamping the thread, I know, but these are topical and well expressed ideas, in my opinion and it's easy enough to scroll past if you're irritated by them or me

   This one addresses the challenge of despair, especially the despair all sensitive people are feeling nowadays, around the various ills we face globally; species extinction, habitat destruction, climate derangement etc…

   "Personally, I’ve actually found it quite liberating to simply feel despair. Despair is an appropriate response to a desperate situation.

   One day I was just sobbing, and I called up a friend of mine, Jeannette Armstrong, who is an Okanagan Indian activist. I said to her, “This work is just killing me. It’s breaking my heart.” She said, “Yeah, it’ll do that.” And I said, “The dominant culture hates everything, doesn’t it?” She said, “Yeah, it does. Even itself.” And I said, “It has a death urge, doesn’t it?” She said, “Yeah, it does.” And I said, “Unless it’s stopped it’s going to kill everything on the planet, isn’t it?” She said, “Yeah, it is. Unless it’s stopped.” And then I said, “We’re not going to make it to some great new glorious tomorrow, are we?” She thought for a moment and then she said the best thing she could possibly say, which was, “I’ve been waiting for you to say that.”

   The reason it was the best thing she could say was that it normalized my despair. It let me know that despair is an appropriate response to a desperate situation; the sorrow is just sorrow and the pain is just pain. It’s not so much the sorrow or even the pain that hurts as it is my resistance to it. It let me know that I can feel all those things and it wouldn’t kill me. I could feel that pain and still feel love.

   There’s this idea that if you really recognize how bad things are you have to go around being miserable all the time. But the truth is, I’m really happy. I am full of rage and sorrow and joy and happiness and contentment and discontent. I’m full of all those things. It’s okay to feel more than one thing at the same time.

   Some people say, “If things are so bad, then why don’t you just kill yourself?” Part of the answer is that I’m having a lot of fun. It’s tremendous fun to fight back. What a gas!"
   • Janet 5.1

     12 May 2019 at 10:38 am

     "This one addresses the challenge of despair, especially the despair all sensitive people are feeling nowadays, around the various ills we face globally; species extinction, habitat destruction, climate derangement etc…"

     I knew someone in this situation 20 years ago. I had, myself, just found Bill Mollison's Permaculure "Bible" and pointed him to it. It empowered him and gave him a positive approach to everything again and right to this day. He practises a blend of permaculture, sustainable farming and organic principals for his peace of mind and of course for the future of the world.
   • greywarshark 5.2

     12 May 2019 at 10:54 am

     Swamp, swamp I am happily swimming in these thoughts feeling cool.

     The job of an activist is not to manifest moral purity, but to confront and take down oppressive systems of power.

     So any of you tempted to utter negative things about people like Assange who has carried out a daring raid on The Man, The Secret Power, think on positives and support those people who do stuff for 'the people', and don't just talk and write about it. The largeness of their mind, understanding and concern for all people means that they don't give up when their own side try to take them down. But it must be hard to be hit by 'friendly fire' which is not even accidental or negligence but prepared to be murderous because of prissy, unreasonable, puritanism. I declare hate speech – I hate puritans.

     We all are negligent at least, in not helping all the people who need help, and are suffering somewhere in the world every minute of our own day and our own being (for instance what have I done about Manus Island detainees, I should try harder), then if we are honest with ourselves we fail to do everything we should for others. Perhaps some of the puritans are too busy trying to live up to the highest environmental principles, to appease Nature, to pay attention honestly to their own failures, because pf putting love of Nature ahead of assisting and loving people.
     • Robert Guyton 5.2.1

       12 May 2019 at 12:08 pm

       Nature's the super-set, people a sub-set.
       • Robert Guyton 5.2.1.1

         12 May 2019 at 12:10 pm

         Nature, in the broadest sense, is the natural, physical, or material world or universe. … The word nature is derived from the Latin word natura, or "essential qualities, innate disposition", and in ancient times, literally meant "birth".

         nature (n.)

         late 13c., "restorative powers of the body, bodily processes; powers of growth;" from Old French nature "nature, being, principle of life; character, essence," from Latin natura "course of things; natural character, constitution, quality; the universe," literally "birth," from natus "born," past participle of nasci "to be born," from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget."
6. greywarshark 6

   12 May 2019 at 2:07 pm

   The Keeling Curve which measures CO2. Something else to watch.

   https://scripps.ucsd.edu/programs/keelingcurve/

   https://climateandcapitalism.com/2018/04/24/the-keeling-curve-a-portrait-of-climate-crisis/

   A 33% increase in 60 years is a serious concern, but it’s much worse than it looks. In the 1990s, scientists drilled deep holes in Antarctic’s ancient ice — the cores they removed provide an 800,000 year record of atmospheric CO2 levels. Through all that time, through ice ages and warm spells, the CO2 level was never higher than 300 parts per million. Greenhouse gas concentrations were already above that when Keeling started work, and they are still going up.

   But there is something else of note in the Keeling Curve. Before the steady upward trend was clear, Keeling noticed something unexpected — CO2 levels rise from October to May and fall from May to October, creating a saw-tooth pattern, shown in red. He was the first person to see the Earth breathing.

   and

   http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2019/05/ireland-declares-climate-emergency.html Ireland declares a climate emergency

   Last week, the UK Parliament became the first in the world to recognise the seriousness and urgency of the environmental situation by declaring a climate emergency. And last night, Ireland followed suit:

   Ireland has become only the second country in the world to declare a climate and biodiversity emergency.
7. Robert Guyton 7

   12 May 2019 at 2:40 pm

   Here's an extraordinary listen:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExDCFlARrlk

   Did you know about Darwin's second book and its contents?
8. greywarshark 8

   12 May 2019 at 5:34 pm

   I found this wee comment out in the blog and invited it home.
   Robert Guyton 14.2.2 11 May 2019 at 8:27 pm
   Natural systems. Wetlands, for example, are natural systems that sequester enormous amounts of carbon amongst their other many "services". Mangroves are even better at it!

   What would happen Robert if peopple with eroding sea frontages dumped lumps of concrete in front of their properties, then established both mangroves planted in pipes that would contain nutrients till they could send roots to the sand below, and then placed cages full of rock and shell at the water's edge to try and get shellfish to grow there. I'm thinking of this link from USA projects that WtB put up (below). I am wondering if that is a viable way to go to try and protect against further erosion and protect housing for longer so that they aren't wiped away each time there is a storm?

   https://www.nature.org/en-us/about-us/where-we-work/united-states/south-carolina/stories-in-south-carolina/oyster-reef-restoration-southern-solutions-for-a-global-problem-1/

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5dCMLRH6sw

   There was a difference, however, between naturally formed wetland chunks and wetland chunks from a restoration project in Galveston Island State Park. The restored marsh eroded much more quickly.

   "If you go stick your hand down in it, the stuff in a natural wetland is gooey and fluffy and light, but also real dark and organic and stinky," says Feagin. "Something that people built ten years ago is real sandy and heavier and there isn't so much organic matter." “It just blows away when you hit it with waves.”

   Sand turned out to be the biggest predictor of erosion rates. "When you have something that is real sandy and non-organic, it just blows away when you hit it with waves,"…

   Jeffress Williams, a coastal marine geologist for the US Geological Survey at Woods Hole Science Center in Massachusetts…Williams would like to see more confirmation of Feagin's finding in other places, and with other vegetation types, such as mangroves. If the non-effect is general, it could change thinking in restoration circles, he says. "[Restoration] is based on general understanding and intuitive observations. What we need to do is more laboratory studies and more deliberative field studies …

   Williams would like to see more confirmation of Feagin's finding in other places, and with other vegetation types, such as mangroves. If the non-effect is general, it could change thinking in restoration circles, he says. "[Restoration] is based on general understanding and intuitive observations. What we need to do is more laboratory studies and more deliberative field studies… https://www.nature.com/news/2009/090608/full/news.2009.552.html

   Natural sand dunes support the growth of vegetation better than unnatural dunes. The layers in natural dunes allow the root systems of sea oats and other vegetation to grow deeper into the sand and become stronger and more stable.

   Vanderwaal forces also help to strengthen natural dunes. These forces are electrical bonds that unite symmetrical sand grains and the water particles between the grains. In contrast, unnatural dunes do not have deep roots of vegetation to stabilize them and Vanderwaal forces are ineffective due to the irregular sizes of sand grains and shell fragments (Neal, Pilkey, Rice, 2004).
   The Preventive Methods of Beach Erosion by Helen Robertson
   • Stuart Munro. 8.1

     12 May 2019 at 6:36 pm

     The mangroves are a good idea – a lot of warmer water species will be extending their range south. Easy to start on a guerilla basis too; the edge of any warm tidal creek can support pioneer individuals that will then seed the whole area. We'll all grow old and die before we see any constructive action at the official level.

     Further protection from erosion should be gabions (woven baskets of rocks). They have some ability to flex to resist surges, and once colonized by calcareous life will gradually solidify.
     • greywarshark 8.1.1

       12 May 2019 at 8:21 pm

       Then we pioneer individuals will help to seed the whole area eh.
9. greywarshark 9

   12 May 2019 at 8:14 pm

   Coastal erosion mitigation. What do the Dutch do? They have much knowledge and experience.

   https://www.climatechangepost.com/netherlands/coastal-erosion/

   Vulnerabilities – Erosion of the dunes

   Large parts of the Netherlands are below sea level, protected against floods from the North Sea by a coastal flood defence system consisting of dunes, dams and storm-surge barriers. Over the last decades these flood defences were designed and maintained to be high and strong enough to withstand storm surge levels that may occur with a probability of 1/10,000 per year.

   The extremely high safety standards of the Dutch flood defence system are unique worldwide. Investments are needed to maintain this high safety level, under current conditions near the coast (and on the rivers and lakes) and with respect to the projected impacts of climate change. Scientific studies inform policy makers on possible impacts of climate change on sea level rise, and wave and storm surge conditions, and assist flood defence managers to take appropriate measures. Part of this research focuses on the dunes of the central connected coast that protects cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague.

   https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260034582_'Building_with_nature'_The_new_Dutch_approach_to_coastal_and_river_works

   The Netherlands has adopted a new, proactive approach to developing its extensive coastal and river works called 'building with nature'. Rather than simply minimising or mitigating the environmental impact of harbours, navigation channels, land reclamation and flood defences, the idea is to make use of the dynamics of the natural environment and provide opportunities for natural processes. Existing concepts and ideas have been further developed and tested in a number of full-scale pilot experiments, including sand engines, oyster reefs and wave-attenuating forests. This paper describes a number of these experiments along with the preliminary results and lessons learned.

   and – an intriguing title.

   https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325611726_Make_me_a_willow_cabin_at_your_gate_Legislation_and_implementation_of_tidal_forest_restoration_at_estuarine_upstream_sites
10. greywarshark 10

    12 May 2019 at 8:42 pm

    Here is an old one that is something to look into, carried over.

    One Two 10 Open Mike

    25 January 2019 at 10:58 am

    Bees, Birds and Mankind –
    Destroying Nature by ‘Electrosmog

    The relationship between life and the physical parameters of earth’s surface and atmosphere have been known for many decades. Those responsible therefore had the opportunity long ago to question to what extent the excesses of technically created electrical and magnetic fields might have the potential to destroy nature’s housekeeping

    “Today, unprecedented exposure levels and intensities of magnetic, electric, and electromagnetic fields from numerous wireless technologies interfere with the natural information system and functioning of humans, animals, and plants. The consequences of this development, which have already been predicted by critics for many decades, cannot be ignored anymore. Bees and other insects vanish; birds avoid certain places and become disorientated at others. Humans suffer from functional impairments and diseases. And insofar as the latter are hereditary, they will be passed on to next generations as pre-existing defects”

    About the Author

    The main research areas of Dr. rer. nat. Ulrich Warnke, an internationally renowned bioscientist at Saarland University, include biomedicine, environmental medicine, and biophysics. For decades his research interest centered especially on the effects of electromagnetic fields
11. Jenny - How to get there? 11

    13 May 2019 at 4:05 am

    The site of New Zealand's first gardens are to be paved over

    Pania Newton argues that Ihumatao be saved from develeopment as a heritage site for all New Zealanders

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT11yvE5plo&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0oWw-WLxtCnBcMGEuSDyAeyy6G_sVRrh7wq-FVF8Ah-f4UCmriU_vK4EY
12. Jenny - How to get there? 12

    13 May 2019 at 4:28 am

    How to get there.

    Leadership IV

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/05/12/fragile-finite-fucked/#comment-461842
    • Milly 12.1

      13 May 2019 at 6:56 am

      An excellent article by Christine Rose.

      The most powerful section was this.

      “Photos from space show us how fragile and finite is our beautiful planet. But if survival depends on us sacrificing growth and middle class quality of life luxuries and aspirations to attenuate our effects, then we’ve failed already and the planet’s also f*****.”

      It would appear this government was sold to us under false pretences.

      Climate Change – nothing transformational

      Inequality – nothing transformational.

      It would appear we’ve just got a slightly milder form of free market capitalism.

      Let’s be honest – Ardern’s economic policies are to the right of Muldoon and Holyoake.
      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        13 May 2019 at 11:17 am

        Okay Milly That could have been put on Open Mike – what we don't need is more critical comment and description of the situation for our planet, what idea have you come up with as to change?

        What will you, and what can we do, to make that change. The post is not for sitting and weeping, it is for the next step of stubborn, determined people trying to climb up. Where are the steps that you recommend?

        And Jenny, you are showing leadership in discussing the need for it. You say on TDB in ringing tones:

        Someone, somewhere, needs to go out in front and take the lead.

        You have repeated this a number of times, we have seen it, taken it in, so you have taken the lead on bringing this to our attention. Now think out the next step and tell us what you yourself are actually doing with something physical, because words aren't enough are they. And the government has not responded to these for decades.

        So now can you please come on to How to get there… with some idea you have and are carrying out that follows your ideas and principles and be the leader you want to see, and you will get followers.
        • Jenny - How to get there? 12.1.1.1

          17 May 2019 at 6:16 am

          Thanks Grey,

          I will to try and do something for the next how will we get there.

          I have been having some computer issues. Which prevent me posting to this site.

          (which is why I posted that last, to the TDB)

          But just to let you know. I see what you see.

          But I must say, I feel intellectuals, scientists, technicians, the people gathering the data, and presenting it, are not politicians, are not activists, are not political leaders of any kind, are missing something.

          https://media.csuchico.edu/media/0_2ljujwjg?fbclid=IwAR10fWgDLqr1oLbDMCsrOUCOFoJKLTESu8J0jJoSTfUkgHPF1HAEoRIBNJ0
          • greywarshark 12.1.1.1.1

            18 May 2019 at 1:56 pm

            Jeeny How

            That's sweet. You are concerned. But while you belt out the message to the pollies and admins who need to hear it, I think we should remember we are saying stuff that has been said for decades and been largely ignored. We have to find a way to get the PTB to sit down and say kindly 'Here are some great recipes which I have actually made and can serve today. Try this.' And give them a taste of what we want.

            We have to do things ourselves. I always watched others do the hard work thinking that was good now other things will follow. I have learned how wrong i was. It is every thinking person's job to find a way to make some change. Thinking and doing people are in the minority and we must encourage them and praise them in
            their endeavours and successes.

            Power with the people is the answer I think. But add to that, making sure they are the right people as there are the sneaky ones who have their own agendas which aren't nice and democratic or practical for people developing their lives and being a respected individual. Some want followers more than anything.
13. greywarshark 13

    13 May 2019 at 3:56 pm

    Just some snippets from Mulloon Creek Institute to keep us thinking of drought limitation and what those Aussies are doing.

    Why Peter Andrews (of Mulloon) advocates planting on hilltops. 2.37 mins

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQQ0Igp-gOI

    and

    http://www.soilsforlife.org.au/news/beetles-rule

    According to one of Australia’s foremost experts on dung beetles, these tiny animals are the secret to carbon capture and clean water.

    http://www.soilsforlife.org.au/news/20-landholders-one-50-km-creek-and-a-unique-regenerative-success-story

    The Chair of the Institute, Gary Nairn AO, also explains the overall aim of the Project, and Co-Ordinator Peter Hazell describes some of the benefits of slowing the flow, and tells how a community came together for the benefit of the whole catchment.

    The Soils For Life Mulloon Creek case study can be found here.

    and

    CARBON SINK THOUGHTS http://www.soilsforlife.org.au/news/4-corners-missed-the-point

    We have the capacity to substantially reduce our overall emissions by improving the soil health of 470 million hectares of our agricultural landscape”, General Jeffery said.

    “Australia’s former Chief Scientist, Professor Robin Batterham, estimates that healthy soils have the capacity to absorb, like a sponge, at least sufficient CO2 to meet our Paris Agreement target, and accordingly we should be pursuing with the utmost vigour, a cheap, accurate, broad acre soil carbon measurement system”.

    “It is estimated that, in our Australian agricultural landscapes, our soil carbon levels have decreased from a healthy 4%-5% at settlement to around 1% today”.

    “Our Soils For Life case studies have shown that regenerative farmers can dramatically increase their soil carbon levels by drawing down CO2 from the atmosphere, through the application of integrated soil, water, plant and animal management techniques”.
14. greywarshark 14

    13 May 2019 at 9:59 pm

    Every thing is connected story. Cats and dolphins and wetlands.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/389114/disease-bigger-worry-than-bycatch-for-rare-dolphins-niwa

    Dr Roberts said the previous, higher figure of bycatch deaths was based on assessments from experts, not from actual catch data.

    He said toxoplasmosis, which was spread by cats, was a bigger problem for dolphins. Parasites from cats' faeces were washed down rivers into the sea, where they could survive for a year while passing up the food chain to dolphins.

    Methods to limit the scale of this problem were still being researched. "There is lots of research quite recently looking at vaccines for cats, so they don't shed the cyst," Dr Roberts said.

    "We also know from research in the US that regeneration of wetlands can help. "If you don't have wetlands, you lose the capacity for filtration (of running water) to take out the cyst before it gets into coastal waters."

    Dr Roberts said toxoplasmosis killed nine out of 55 post-weaning age Hector's and Maui dolphins for which carcasses were recovered since 2007.
    • WeTheBleeple 14.1

      14 May 2019 at 6:12 am

      It is definitely in the filtration re: reducing parasite loads. I have a fish tank here that hasn't been cleaned coming up to 20 years. It originally had some fish parasites in it but instead of medicating, I let the filter run it's course. The water in the tank is run through a large gravel filter that houses plants (ferns and kumara right now) whose roots trap out and utilise organic matter . The nitrogen cycle takes place but also basics of the soil food web. Bacteria are eaten by protists. Bacteria like Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, Toxoplasma gondii and more.

      The late Charles Mitchell estimated with the size of my filter I'm taking out 99% of parasites with each water cycle, which is about every hour and a half. As one might imagine, the parasites don't get to get a foothold.

      This compared to industry medications, which outright killed every salmonid/galaxiid I ever tried to treat.

      Wetlands! We should make HUGE fines for any yuppies caught cutting mangroves.
15. greywarshark 15

    15 May 2019 at 1:37 pm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_plants_poisonous_to_equines

    https://www.hedging.co.uk/acatalog/product_121241.html
    Horse friendly hedging

    https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control
    /horse-plant-list
    Toxic and Non-toxic plant list for horses

    https://www.bluecross.org.uk/pet-advice/nine-poisonous-plants-horses-should-avoid

    FYI anybody.
16. greywarshark 16

    18 May 2019 at 12:44 pm

    Transfer from Forestry bit on 18 May – gws

    • • Ad 2.1

        18 May 2019 at 11:49 am

        Agree. The Kahutia Accord emphasizes a large role for native plantings.

        Reply
    • Dennis Frank 3

      18 May 2019 at 11:16 am

      They ought to get permaculture consultants on board. All that wasted land in between the trees could be growing productive crops, eh? Forest garden design is an area of expertise in permaculture. Soil fertility would vary of course, but testing & analysis would inform people what else is viable to grow in any particular place.

      Regional resilience would be enhanced by locally-grown crops, and there'd be employment of gardeners to maintain them. A regional UBI could be trialled, with recipients required to do x hours gardening per week.

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