How To Get There 28/4/19

46 comments on “How To Get There 28/4/19 ”

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1. francesca 1

   28 April 2019 at 7:35 am

   Pardon me if this has already been linked to

   I've always thought that what is most necessary and primary is a shift in attitude towards the natural world that nurtures us and keeps us alive.That has to come way before any technological "solutions" otherwise its same old same old.

   Maybe Monbiot is expressing something like that here , but far better than I can

   And this writer Jeremy Lent could be pointing the way

   https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/25/capitalism-economic-system-survival-earth

   https://www.jeremylent.com/the-patterning-instinct.html
   • Jenny - How to get there? 1.1

     28 April 2019 at 9:44 am

     As George Monbiot rather crudely puts it in this Youtube video, “micro-consumerist bollocks is not going to get us anywhere”

     I don’t completely agree with Monbiot here, mainly because I believe micro-consumerist initiatives, just like the victory gardens of the Second World War, will play a part. But maybe, just not the decisive part.

     “What we have to do is the big structural political economic stuff”

     There are two things that Monbiot says that we can do, as individuals to address climate change; go vegan, and stop flying.

     
     
     
   • One Two 1.2

     28 April 2019 at 9:53 am

     100% Francesca

     Presently the understanding and knowledge already available could remediate all and any of the major crises faced by humanity…

     The barriers are those put in place to sustain the very systems which have created the crises…

     No more technologically is necessary or required on that front…
   • Dennis Frank 1.3

     28 April 2019 at 11:27 am

     Fascinating, I hadn't heard of Lent, thanks for that. Monbiot merely reminds us of all the reasons why the Green movement went political in the eighties, in the guise of presenting it anew, succinctly. Always hard to tell if he's a late-comer figuring it all out himself more than 30 years behind the bunch, or just reluctant to give credit where it's due.

     "Lent founded the nonprofit Liology Institute in 2012, with the aim of fostering a worldview that could enable humanity to thrive sustainably. The institute, according to its website, “is dedicated to fostering a worldview in which the human discovery and experience of meaning in our lives is compatible with the findings of scientific investigation, offering a deeply integrated and coherent understanding of humanity’s place in our cosmos which could enable us to thrive on our planet harmoniously and sustainably.”

     "Lent coined the term "liology" from the Chinese word li, meaning organizing principles of the universe, and “ology” of Greek etymology meaning “the study of.” The institute is intended to integrate traditional East Asian practices with the findings of modern systems science." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lent

     An MBA, "Lent joined Strategic Planning Associates, a strategy consulting company based in Washington, D.C. In 1989, he joined First Deposit Corporation (later renamed Providian), a direct mail credit card company in San Francisco. Lent was named Chief Financial Officer of Providian in 1991".

     "In 1996, Lent founded NextCard, an internet financial services company. NextCard was the first company to enable consumers to apply for a credit card over the internet and be approved in real time and the first company to offer consumers the ability to design their own card by uploading a personalized image during the application process. As chairman and CEO, Lent took NextCard public in 1999 … it was taken over by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) in 2002. Along with the other board members, Lent was involved for several years in shareholder lawsuits and investigations by the FDIC and U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). These were eventually settled, and in 2005 the SEC dismissed fraud charges that it had levied against Lent."

     So he survived a capitalist firestorm and is a proven entrepreneur, and there's this: "Lent is a practitioner of meditation, Qigong, and Tai Chi. He is a Level II certified teacher of Radiant Heart Qigong." Which makes him a serious threat to Xi's hegemony, liable to render confucians catatonic. Stay away from China!
     • greywarshark 1.3.1

       28 April 2019 at 4:01 pm

       Successful financial entrepreneur finds a new career following a New Way. How to keep the goodness of what he has physically gained and spiritually appreciates. That sounds a cynical summation, and might be true, but then truths we need to appreciate can crop up anywhere. I guess the main thing is to have a core of belief as one's own standard so that you can join up with people who have integrity, practicality and a desire to be good. Sounds so wishy washy eh.

       Giving up something, going without, for Lent may take on a new meaning beyond the old Christian practice.

       Being good can be bloody hard work. I have just finished reading about Corrie ten Boom from Holland, and how her family drew on their strong Christian beliefs to create little patches of goodness wherever they went, and when they were dying, found solace in their beliefs and and having made a difference and been as helpful and kind as was possible to others, who returned these traits when they could.

       Corrie ten Boom documentary – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5knxSFdyPNg

       This is a film, slowly unfolding, and I think they may have used some old photos of the ten Boom family to set the scene. It all looks very real. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhVC9q_ZlDs&list=PLC7CC4037867A4B1B

       Corrie ten Boom and her work with her people and her Christian strength. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHB_Sp4cJs
2. Robert Guyton 2

   28 April 2019 at 8:09 am

   Francesca, I agree entirely with the sentiments you've expressed in your second paragraph.

   Our "attitude" toward the non-human world and it's "peoples" surely does need to change or we'll lose their support altogether 🙂 Taking the idea a little further, do you think it would be reasonable to think that if the "wild" world wished to survive what we are dishing up to it, it would be trying to support our "attitude shift"? I am beginning to believe so and in that vein, trying to understand how "they" might do that: what communications might be being offered to the errant child who's busting the place up? How might messages from the wild to the civilised, us dupes, look. And are we looking? And is it too late; has the rest of creation washed its hands, paws, mandibles and roots of us? And so on. Those are some of my thinks.
   • francesca 2.1

     28 April 2019 at 8:43 am

     Michael Pollan's " How to Change your Mind " actually addresses that notion Robert..

     You'll be turning in to a raging mushroom hunter.

     Pollan is a terrifically engaging writer
     • Robert Guyton 2.1.1

       28 April 2019 at 9:04 am

       Thanks, Francesca, I'll read that with great interest. I have Mycelium Running here and dip into that when I've a moment; it's a dense read!

       This, from the HOME reading list, looks interesting:

       The Mushroom at the End of the World: On the possibility of Life in Capitalist Ruins

       https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10581.html
       • francesca 2.1.1.1

         28 April 2019 at 9:49 am

         That looks fascinating!

         "they only live in forests disturbed by humans"

         I'll look out for that

         Thanks
     • Stuart Munro. 2.1.2

       28 April 2019 at 9:10 am

       Pollan's Cooked is worth a read too, though it may leave you wanting to barbecue whole pigs.
       • francesca 2.1.2.1

         28 April 2019 at 9:45 am

         Yes he almost had me back to eating meat, if it was raised on a natural grassland that depended on ruminants for its survival. Unfortunately the buffalo were killed off

         And I don't actually like the taste of pork, but Pollan definitely has a winning way of immersing himself in a topic and bringing back news from the front line.
   • WeTheBleeple 2.2

     28 April 2019 at 8:52 am

     Typically negative feedback keeps a system in check but humans take that feedback, pontificate, deride, discuss, debate… then give themselves glowing report cards – Productivity! Growth!

     Meanwhile, the feedback is as good as ignored.

     For we are not observers, rather, opinors.

     And so the systems that support life will collapse as we discuss our role avidly.

     The writing's been on the wall over half a century. The wild world has already spoken up. It got a hiding and was sent to it's room with no dinner. Since them we've applied various corrective methods to silence the upstart:

     Insects are met with pesticides, hunger with fast food, drought with pumping aquifers.

     Our disconnect is astounding. Our ego's will kill us.

     I think being stewards of the planet more than sufficiently feeds the ego, but no, rulers we must be.

     We'd rather rule a wasteland than serve in paradise.
     • Robert Guyton 2.2.1

       28 April 2019 at 9:08 am

       What all humans, WTB?

       Surely some of us wish to serve in paradise? I reckon about 10%. At least 🙂
       • WeTheBleeple 2.2.1.1

         28 April 2019 at 9:16 am

         We developed our own mycelial network and filled it with hate speech and porn…
         • Robert Guyton 2.2.1.1.1

           28 April 2019 at 9:20 am

           Polluted it with those, but not filled; there're still threads used for valuable communications…
   • Incognito 2.3

     28 April 2019 at 10:19 am

     It has been suggested that UFO sightings are caused by the collective unconscious particularly in times of increased anxiety. Whether this can be regarded as a message from the “wild world” to humankind or strictly as a shared message within humankind only I’ll leave open for now. I’m sure this comment is going to be treated by some with some scepticism and possibly disdain so no point wasting to many ‘digital words’ on it right now …
     • Robert Guyton 2.3.1

       28 April 2019 at 10:24 am

       That's interesting – the "Mother" ship, like a face hovering overhead, the source of all knowing and milk sustenance?
       • Incognito 2.3.1.1

         28 April 2019 at 11:39 am

         No, no ships, just projection of our inner world into and onto the outside world …

         It has been going on for eons and the symbolism is rich and diverse and defies logic and language, just like dreams …

         Ever wondered why movies of this genre are so popular and accessible to people?

         Here’s some reading for those who’re interested: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/201310/could-the-war-the-worlds-happen-again-it-already-does
     • Dennis Frank 2.3.2

       28 April 2019 at 10:52 am

       Jung, in Flying Saucers: A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Skies – 1958. Appeals to folk who discount empiricism in favour of the notion that tacit beliefs govern perception.

       Naturally, those who see ufos are inclined to discount any attempt to deny the evidence produced by their senses! I haven't seen any, but I wrote a talk about them in early '63 and attempted to speechify it while standing in front of my class. Mediating the boundary between imaginal & real was habitual to the private me, but proved so challenging on that public outing that my body pulled the plug on my mind.

       I recall losing vision. My teacher realised I had stopped talking & was in difficulty so helped me to find a seat. My first attempt to do a class speech in primary school caused me to faint: I came to lying on the grass outside the classroom – apparently the teacher had carried me out to revive in the fresh air.

       I've become able to do that public mediation comfortably since, but it took decades to overcome the psychological hurdle. The chasm between the normalcy of social reality as provided by culture, and the deep context in which we all live, is too hard for most people to bridge. Climate change challenges us to get good at traversing the bridge. Only those determined to survive will make the effort, sadly.
       • Incognito 2.3.2.1

         28 April 2019 at 11:48 am

         A very interesting and personal account, Dennis.

         The chasm between the normalcy of social reality as provided by culture, and the deep context in which we all live, is too hard for most people to bridge.

         The chasm didn’t use to be there or at least not as wide. It was francesca who only yesterday referred to “… our very divorce from nature, its intense pleasures and beauties but also its constraints and terrors …”.
         • Robert Guyton 2.3.2.1.1

           28 April 2019 at 11:53 am

           Don't panic!

           "The word panic ultimately derives from the god's name."

           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)
         • Dennis Frank 2.3.2.1.2

           28 April 2019 at 1:47 pm

           I didn't make it clear that I was describing two different (but similar) incidents, the ufo one being three years after the first.

           Yes, the chasm separating us from nature is a generalisation that applies from late 19th century to nowadays, but doesn't apply to folks who immerse themselves in nature often.

           The chasm I was describing corresponds more to Jung's differentiation of the conscious and subconscious minds, but I see the imagination as an operational adjunct to both. How to get there calls it into play, alerting us to the natural role it plays in our survival. We have to imagine how to collaborate to survive. Specifically, how to transcend parliamentary democracy, so as to collectively produce a survival strategy by consensus. We know the politicians are never going to do it.
           • greywarshark 2.3.2.1.2.1

             28 April 2019 at 2:50 pm

             I keep coming back to the subconscious – how is that operating in us all. We know we can switch off mentally for seconds and still keep driving forward in a normal way. Interesting reports on testing of people's brains say that a thought can show up on a monitor coming from part of the brain with peculiar functions, and the watchers can predict what its type will be when expressed by the subject. As I remember – can't give source. So your thought arises and then you speak it or acknowledge it? So what is doing the thinking up there? I feel like Kierkegaard asking questions about lfie.

             Is my subconscious like a friend who is there for me, keeping all the responses and learnings that I had as I grew up and presenting them in a form that could guide some present day action ? Should I sometimes comfort my subconscious which is constantly anxious, think my way out of chronic whatever. If i can calm my subconscious then perhaps my body won't react sharply to some stimulus and give me excema, or asthma? Perhaps it would accept a cup of coffee and a chat in times of huge disappointment instead of rushing to an alcohol fix that depletes bodily reserves in the long run.

             This approach of calming, relaxation, meditation etc. is already being done, but the aspect of the subconscious being close just under the surface of the mind and eyes, like an inner being is not something that I have read about as a conception. I started thinking of people and animals as having a soul, which would be the sum of the baby's conceptions of life and its own reality which coalesced into its own personality and innocent humanity. And it would be a sad person who had been so deprived that their soul had never grown up in innocence and sufficient love.

             Just some musings – good to think about before we are drowned in conformity by those with power to turn us into something profitable, and trained to be machine-thinkers. We already are hearing of thoughts about requiremnts or suggestions to enable simplicity of inter-action when everything is decided by and to suit technology, say an implanted chip, voice-activated computers without keyboards; by algorithms that decide how human we are allowed to be.
             • gsays …

               28 April 2019 at 4:23 pm

               Hi Grey, in yr comment you mentioned meditation.

               In my experience that is the key tool to becoming a master of the mind, as opposed to following a 'monkey' mind, experiencing unity (dissolution of ME) and the path to knowing what needs to be known now.

               When you discover we are all one, it nips othering in the bud. Other genders, cultures, colours, religions, species…
3. Robert Guyton 3

   28 April 2019 at 8:29 am

   There are some pretty interesting reads and watches here:

   https://medium.com/a-school-called-home/finding-our-way-home-a-reading-list-fadf2706ad19

   The concept they're describing with their "school for culture makers" is pretty interesting…

   "We are going looking for the words and the stories that could help us make sense of the mess the world is in.

   This mess mostly gets talked about with numbers: there are now 408.05 ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere. Between 1989 and 2016, insect biomass fell by 76%. There were 64,000 overdose deaths in the United States in 2016.

   The numbers are stunning, overwhelming. They leave us numb. We hardly even know how to think about all the loss that stands behind them. It is too much for any of us to bear alone.

   We don’t have to do it alone. That’s one reason to take culture as a starting point, because culture is about being human together. It is about the different ways that people have found of being human together. It draws our attention to what is missing from the maps that shape our current way of living. And it offers us clues to how to keep going when the maps run out.

   Five days in June

   Here is the invitation. Unplug from your phone and your laptop, leave behind the seductions of screens and networks, and let’s spend five days in slow conversation and hospitable company, as we explore this territory together."
   • greywarshark 3.1

     28 April 2019 at 3:27 pm

     I am interested in groups forming of people that have a similar approach, and are willing to sign up to it so that everyone has the same commitment to the morals and desires expounded. Then within that group which is committed to working together to make their own bit of community, within their larger community, members will arise with an idea and discuss it., the ideas to be treated as positives and not to be wet-blanketed as in the normal NZ way. It will be adopted as a project that goes through planning stages – its value established, its practicality established, what criteria to meet and then a committed group will work on it to bring it to completion, and new people would not be accepted except for an opportunity to advise on useful points at designated times. There would be little projects arising from that group all the time. Reports from the 'ginger' groups would be made regularly, and experience drawn on. This would enliven other groups, show what could be done, get feedback provide useful background to facilitate action elsewhere.

     This would require many meetings and talks but with real outcomes; there can be too much talking and not enough doing and the groups would be committed to carrying out projects. (This might be rather like how Habitat for Humanity works.) There can be too much protesting but not enough positive action with good outcomes for people and plants and it seems hard to get things going at present.

     There is so much to be done, and so little can be achieved after hours of words and ideas are exchanged. So many people have never reflected on how things are, and why, they will take the everyday, commonsense answer that saves them time. But it won't be the answer that reflection would bring. They may have little time to imagine anything for themselves, they are too busy working, spending and watching television or playing fantasy games. They can't imagine anything and have to be presented with the reality of a finished project – and then often they will be so into magical, fantasy–thinking that they won't realise the huge effort and skill built into this entity they see – that bringing it to reality has taken sterling efforts from drawing board to a usable outcome.

     The Chinese tried to take academics to the farm to introduce design and scholarship to practicality and form, but needed to give more education and autonomy to the farmers. In between the two classes, the manipulators pushed their way in and took over the controls. So if we people want to keep most of the control, we need to know enough from the ground up, add the higher skills and keep hold of the levers.
4. francesca 4

   28 April 2019 at 8:45 am

   My Goodness Robert, I just clicked on your link and up comes that very thought re: mushrooms etc!!!
   • WeTheBleeple 4.1

     28 April 2019 at 9:15 am

     Stamets talks about the Gaia hypothesis in Mycelium running, and how that might relate to fungi. Their networking has been well documented now. Plants, animals, fungi, bacteria – all signal and communicate in some manner, and all interact creating the support system for life that ultimately expands on and reiterates itself.

     The soil food web is composed of an enormous number and diversity of organisms supported by plant products. Plants in turn are supported by the soil food web. Soil food web functions beneficial to plants include: root system extension, pest and disease resistance, herbivore resistance, increased water and nutrient uptake, nitrogen fixation, phosphate acquisition, and drought, heat and cold tolerance. A healthy soil food web provides plants with many allies and services to support growth and reproduction. When we disrupt the soil food web, we disrupt plant support systems.

     Symbiotic fungi help plants acquire hard to get substances bound in soil, like phosphate, or various metals. When phosphate fertilisers are used the fungi form weaker plant associations or none at all. Less useful freeloading species can take the symbionts place greatly reducing or removing their ecological function. Similarly, nitrogen fertilisers (and pesticides) compromise the associations between nitrogen-fixing bacteria and plants. To add insult to injury, phosphate is required for the nitrogen fixing process – so the loss of mycorrhizal function affects nitrogen fixation also. Loss of one component often cascades into further effects. We then need more chemicals to finish crops, and more products to protect the plants. In time the soil is depleted of support systems, and plants are entirely reliant on chemicals – effectively, junkies.

     “There goes the neighbourhood” – Body Count, There Goes the Neighbourhood. "

     Our way back must address agricultural practices. To reconnect with the land we must literally do just that – reconnect. The fact we've broken the lands own connections bodes very badly. It is the 11th hour. Fungi are crucial, we barely have names for them let alone their functionality. What we do know is astounding.

     A plants rhizosphere is extended in area and density via mycorrhizal fungi. This extended ‘root’ zone is the mycorrhizosphere. The mycorrhizosphere can greatly increase plant acquisition of various substances and services from the soil, but also extends the distribution of plant root products into the soil. Much like the rhizosphere, plant products support higher numbers of organisms in the mycorrhizosphere. Bacteria live within and outside of mycorrhizal fungi, trading between themselves, fungi and plants. Over time individual plants of varied species become interconnected via fungi. A mycorrhizal network is formed, where goods and information travel between a myriad of species.

     We're not just missing out on the party, we've busted up the party.
     • Robert Guyton 4.1.1

       28 April 2019 at 9:18 am

       A sort of silk-road then 🙂

       Yes to all that. Here in Southland, farmers plant hectares of winter crop; brassicas that don't have mycorrhiza, thus extinguishing any that might have been hanging on below the grass pastures.
       • WeTheBleeple 4.1.1.1

         28 April 2019 at 10:04 am

         Mustard greens aka Brassica juncea? They'll be recycling their soil cadmium

         The relatively ubiquitous nature of endomycorrhizal fungi, their rapid sporulation, their extreme promiscuity with multiple short life cycle hosts… leads me to believe the fungi of pastures are of 'little'* concern – in comparison to the ectomycorrhizal fungi, requiring tree hosts, and being far more fussy with regards to host specificity, some found with only a single tree species.

         *Our farmed grass has little resemblance to a traditional pasture.

         Belt and road huh. Here's me scribbling more on fungi; a first jab at fungal succession no less:

         "Highly disturbed soils are typically colonised by hardy pioneering plants many of which are non-mycorrhizal. Pioneers provide nutrients and habitat changes for further species, which in turn facilitate others. Diversity increases above and below ground as new habitats and resources continue to emerge from early to mid then late succession. As plant succession progresses from pioneers, grasses and herbs to shrubs and trees, fungi also progress.

         Mulch saprobes arrive on pioneer plant wastes, various endophytes within plants leaves. Endomycorrhizal fungi set up on roots of pioneering grasses and herbs; while worms and insects begin to appear. These pave the way for coprophilious, entomophagous and nematophagous fungi. Fungi that eat fungi arrive. As plants get larger wood saprobes arrive, and with the trees come ectomycorrhizal fungi.

         A mature ecosystem hosts a huge variety of species, where regular, but smaller, disturbances like wind fall, flood & fire poke gaps in the landscape allowing conditions for many early and mid-succession species to remain. Occasionally a large disturbance rips through. Avalanche, tsunami, volcanic activity… The organisms that accompany plants are decimated when their hosts are removed completely. Whole site harvesting is akin to large scale disturbance, while partial harvesting methods resemble small scale disturbance, encouraging diversity."

         The trick then, to restorative agriculture, is 'a series of small scale disturbances'. The pulses of the land, multiplied by a myriad of species, so that many harvests are realised through time yet nothing is destroyed.
         • Robert Guyton 4.1.1.1.1

           28 April 2019 at 10:15 am

           Yes, a series of small-scale disturbances, that's quite right and where the no-till gardener can still justifiably fork some soil over for a minor purpose, where his rotary-hoeing neighbour is disturbing his soil regularly and destructively though it could be argued his garden is a minor plot in the scale of things. It's more about intention than action, imo. Decisions about how to treat soil affect behaviours in other spheres of life just as they say a pet-tormenting child is more likely to bully fellow humans when they are older.
5. gsays 5

   28 April 2019 at 8:59 am

   Good morning, good morning, good morning!

   I have gotten enthused about making charcoal in a retort.

   I want to build a piece of kit that will do 200 liters at a time, use the wood gas (smoke) partly to fuel the fire and catch the rest, and condense the smoke for wood vinegar.

   I am keen to hear the opinions of folk here on using the diluted wood vinegar as a fertilizer, pest deterrent and herbicide.

   To be honest, the charcoal will mainly be used for a smoker but biochar is an obvious other use for it.
   • Robert Guyton 5.1

     28 April 2019 at 9:15 am

     Wow!! Wood vinegar – I'd never heard of it till now! I wonder if wood fires of the sort I like to sit around of an evening, out in the forest garden, produce wood vinegar and disperse it naturally across the trees, shrubs and vines growing all around?

     "Wood vinegar has a strong germicidal effect due to its high acidity and the presence of germicidal ingredients such as methanol and phenol. The microbes first killed by wood vinegar are bacilli which have no spores, and some hyphomycetes which are weak in acid. However, when wood vinegar is diluted 20 times, it greatly increases the concentration of microbes. It is believed that this is primarily due to the effects of the acetic acid in wood vinegar. Plants and microbes produce a substance named acetyl coenzyme from acetic aid. Acetyl coenzyme itself is then converted into various substances which facilitate the growth of plants and microbes. Wood vinegar usually is able to reduce soil diseases through its ability to destroy harmful microbes and encourage the growth of helpful ones. Wood vinegar both has a direct germicidal effect, and an indirect, prophylactic effect through changing the biota on the leaf surface. When leaves are temporarily acidified, it prevents the increase of germs. However, the most conspicuous benefit of spraying wood vinegar on leaves, is the vinegar’s ability to strengthen plants’ natural resistances to diseases and to increase the permeability of agricultural chemicals. The bottom line, wood vinegar is beneficial to plants. I think this information will work for you."

     Prosanta Kumar Dash

     University of Florida
6. gsays 6

   28 April 2019 at 9:35 am

   Thanks Robert, I am unable to reply to comments on my talking bone but can make a new comment.

   I hadn't read that scientifically yet, just really enthused by the idea and am looking for a downside.

   There is a you tube clip from Japan where residents had problems with big flocks of birds (swallows or starlings) would roost in trees and therefore poop over cars.

   One gentleman decided to hang wood vinegar (liquid smoke) in containers in the trees and the birds did not roost there.

   I realise this is an example of mankind bending nature to its will, as eluded to up thread, but I bring it up as another use of wood vinegar. (Besides being Japan, there would be several other tree options available for the feathered friends).

   Dilution rates are from 50 water to 1wood vinegar through to 1500 to 1, depending on use.

   Bamboo is used often as a WV, and it makes a great charcoal.

   Good business idea for someone with excess bamboo.
   • WeTheBleeple 6.1

     28 April 2019 at 10:12 am

     That's a great way to control birds if it works. For a home garden, I encourage them to poop by providing perches.

     Birds will land somewhere close to their nest/trees they feed in, to check if it's safe. Then they'll poop, then go to the nest/food source. A well placed bamboo T will have them perch and poop where you want them to.

     Why are fence lines often more productive? birds and poop. Also condensation from the poles and a little extra dust dropping out from the wind.
     • Robert Guyton 6.1.1

       28 April 2019 at 10:21 am

       That's right; I've been studying where birds poop in order to collect seeds from there. I noticed that concrete footpaths are a good collection site – birds on a wire, telephone and electricity wires overhead, but the seeds left stuck to the pavement are a mixed bad and only by sowing and growing them will I know what they are. Most will be "pest plants" no doubt – lots of nightshades, I'm betting.
   • greywarshark 6.2

     3 May 2019 at 11:18 am

     See 13 below to continue this fruitful bamboo theme.
7. Robert Guyton 7

   28 April 2019 at 10:28 am

   “I remain certain that the quest for truth cannot thrive outside the nourishment of mutual trust flowering into a commitment to friendship.”
   Ivan Illich
8. greywarshark 8

   28 April 2019 at 2:21 pm

   Working together as people trying to be good, working out what good is and choosing to try and keep on that path – that would take us a long way towards being able to make reasoned and emotional decisions good for us individually and as a group.

   I've just been reading an old book about the ten Boom family of Holland and how WW2 affected them, and the difference that their desire for goodness and love to one another lifted them and those they were amongst above the horror, the cruelty and despair that came with that war and its attempted genocide.

   Here are some links about the ten Booms, and Corrie who was the youngest and fittest of the family living in the old shop with home above.

   Documentary – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5knxSFdyPNg

   A listing of many of the films made around WW2 and attacks on civilians especially Jewish. https://www.kanopy.com/product/corrie-ten-boom-faith-undefeated

   Film The Hiding Place in episodes – (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhVC9q_ZlDs&list=PLC7CC4037867A4B1B

   The goodness and staunchness of the Dutch people was called to its ultimate in the later years of WW2. The Hunger Winter of 1944-45 on top of all the travails of war took them to the edge. Has NZ got that same spirit I wonder? We have quick emotionalism, but our goodness doesn't extend to ensuring that vulnerable people have housing and food at a time of vaunted prosperity! This Dutch aspect of WW2 food distribution and life-saving I had not heard of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944%E2%80%9345

   The famine was alleviated by the liberation of the provinces by the Allies in May 1945. Prior to that, bread baked from flour shipped in from Sweden, and the airlift of food by the Royal Air Force, the Royal Canadian Air Force, and the United States Army Air Forces – under an agreement with the Germans that if the Germans did not shoot at the mercy flights, the Allies would not bomb the German positions – helped to mitigate the famine. These were Operations Manna and Chowhound. Operation Faust also trucked in food to the province

   The internet enables us to watch and learn much that could help us, but then we need to discuss, pass on our findings and hear others opinions. I don't have television now because I consider there are too many people like Hosking involved with it, and I don't want people like that deciding what I can watch or not. I recently saw a catalogue from Skyfall full of different channels and content. How can anyone have time to think about reality if they are always watching fiction, or even a diet of documentaries? Better to get up, mingle with society, go to a film at the 'flicks.

   It seems that thinking creatively, analytically, is under threat from these elegantly prepared, visually appealing opportunities. Perhaps television has to be dropped if a person wants to be in a caring, real, alive, working community. From the beginning it has captured us. I remember stories of NZs travelling to UK, looking up their forebears, organising a visit in the evening and planning transport to reach the address, a major task. They were greeted warmly and then offered a chair while they all watched Coronation Street, given a cup of tea and had to leave to ensure they could co-ordinate transport to get back to their rooms. After travelling thousands of miles from NZ to UK, the novelty of the fictional tale on television was a greater draw than the novelty of getting to know these far-flung relatives with tales to tell and family information to swap.
9. Craig H 9

   28 April 2019 at 2:40 pm

   On the climate issues, I think it's time for free public transport in electric buses. Electric fast trains can be added for for intercity travel.
10. Stuart Munro. 10

    29 April 2019 at 8:11 am

    Something along these lines might work locally – waste minimization to reduce poverty.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/consumer/lidl-damaged-veg-boxes-food-waste/?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=ijp&fbclid=IwAR3H2raMWJpmuf8aAFyhOhPE3KkiM8xo2tH4xRxYJnKcWcNQrz5SVu8ZF4E
11. WeTheBleeple 11

    30 April 2019 at 2:00 pm

    Just reading a stuff article where private coastal owners are told they're on their own with regards to mitigating coastal inundation.

    The costs are enormous making concrete blocks or other structures to line the coast.

    We could divert all industrial concrete/hardfill waste to build the foundations of reefs. Then, we seed the reefs with oysters and let the reefs begin to grow themselves via calcium deposition of oysters. Fish species rise, industry is created to help pay for it all.

    The reefs are designed to alleviate storm action around vulnerable coastal areas. Here's some clever folk already working on such ideas.

    https://www.nature.org/en-us/about-us/where-we-work/united-states/south-carolina/stories-in-south-carolina/oyster-reef-restoration-southern-solutions-for-a-global-problem-1/

    To get the oysters to thrive (thus build the reefs for you), requires fairly good water. This starts with our Freshwater accord, then the estuarine systems, and finally the ocean. It's whole system management. If we clean up our rivers it will help the estuaries in turn helping the oceans but polluting any of these is problematic.

    Oysters themselves are remarkable water cleaners, and once a population is established in sufficient quantity they perpetuate conditions for themselves to thrive (much like the phenomenon of the lost mussels of Hauraki Gulf floor spawning beneath the mussel farms).

    Ugly concrete blocks on the coast, or more thought…
    • greywarshark 11.1

      30 April 2019 at 2:33 pm

      Have mangroves in suitable areas, to trap the dirt to help the oysters. A layer on layer of process, a pass the greenclean parcel on to a new biological worker or recipient.
12. greywarshark 12

    30 April 2019 at 2:29 pm

    Ooer,Ooer. That could be two mini houses:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO-WzUd0QNE

    18 styles:

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sATAh0wBjkk

    There was the round fibreglass house (of which fewer than 100 were built during the late 1960s and early 1970s. ) Some were built in NZ, we were into thinking, experimenting then, before we settled on doing what the masses could be encouraged to demand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuro

    There might be something of use and interest here: Sustainable Strategies diagams. (https://www.pinterest.nz/pin/369365606919730509/

    Or: (https://www.pinterest.nz/pin/70228075419771111/

    HousingNZ presentation of its role over the years and ideas for the modern version. https://www.hnzc.co.nz/news/latest-news/the-evolution-of-the-new-zealand-state-house-from-good-bones-to-award-winning-design/

    Architects who have made NZ built-scape. https://nzhistory.govt.nz/people/tibor-donner

    https://www.homestolove.co.nz/inspiration/people-and-places/best-new-zealand-homes-past-eight-decades Interesting different designs by top architects.

    Low cost housing & community buildings – interest in innovation in practical materials – 'jute fibre, lightweight structural sandwich systems, stabilised adobe.' (Is there a small working group in NZ looking at alternatives to the mainsteam?) Design and construction of low-cost housing from US Dept of Commerce 1974 Building and Science Series 9,,.to better withstand Earthquakes and Windstorms). https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/BSS/nbsbuildingscience48.pdf
13. greywarshark 13

    1 May 2019 at 9:07 pm

    From gsays 5/1/19 Daily Review #4.

    Bamboo. Time for a rethink about it.

    https://youtu.be/7j4SpTtZxrQ
    • gsays 13.1

      4 May 2019 at 4:02 pm

      The exciting bit is the fast growing nature of bamboo.

      Akin to hemp, the harvest times are relatively short. I am keen to know how much carbon both plants 'sequester' in a year.

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