How wealthy do you feel?

Written By: - Date published: 9:14 am, April 9th, 2012 - 112 comments
Categories: cost of living, wages - Tags:

If everyone earned the same amount (including babies) across the entire world, we’d each get about $USD10,000 each.  So a family of four anywhere in the world would get about $NZD49,000.  That figure makes world poverty pretty hard to stomach.  It’s not that there’s not enough in this world – only that some people haven’t learnt to share.

But past that bald statistic, the BBC has a whole set of new stats out from the ILO.

For the first time the ILO reveals what the average wage earner gets, with fair comparison between countries.  Using Purchasing-Power Parity USD they work out what people get for their money once cost of living etc is taken into account.  We can see that New Zealand doesn’t do as well as you’d hope – although more than 50% better than average.

There’s several things to be said about the stats – it’s those with a regular income only, so not the self-employed, nor people on benefits.  It misses a number of very poor countries, including some large ones like Nigeria.  It’s the average, not the median too, so could be skewed by high-earners: but still, the numbers are not that high.

It works out for those who are earning (not the old or young or their dependents), they’re bringing in about $USD18,000 each year.

That’s a bit under $NZD22,000, or noticeably below minimum wage but above basic benefit level in Aotearoa.

Just some hard statistics to ponder when you’re feeling poor.

112 comments on “How wealthy do you feel? ”

  1. felix 1

    Steady stream of righties willfully misunderstanding the entire article and bleating that you can’t just give people money or they’ll spend it on the wrong thing in 3…2…1….

  2. alex 2

    The world would be a much better place if we abandoned the cult of individualism that dominates economic life, I’m not saying that the way to go is give everyone the same income, but the statistics on inequality are pretty clear. Societies with high levels of income inequality have lower life expectancy, higher crime rates, worse health and education outcomes etc.
    Would it be possible to mandate a system whereby the CEO of a company cannot earn more than (for example) 10 times as much as the lowest paid employee? Also the Greens have a policy of linking the minimum wage to the average wage (66% of average wage), meaning that inequality can’t get out of control. These are ideas that we should be looking at in NZ.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.1

      Would it be possible to mandate a system whereby the CEO of a company cannot earn more than (for example) 10 times as much as the lowest paid employee?

      The CEO should be the lowest paid employee. Or, to be more precise, everyone in a business (which should be a cooperative) should be paid the same amount.

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1

        everyone in a business (which should be a cooperative) should be paid the same amount.

        Actually its up to the owners of a co-operative how much different positions should be paid.

        And because they will be competing to keep good staff (and the worker-owners will decide on who that is), remuneration will still have to be fairly competitive.

        On a more general note, I would favour something like a 49% income tax which kicks in at 10x the median income, and a 79% income tax which kicks in at 20x the median income.

        • alex 2.1.1.1

          I like the principle behind your tax proposal, that rather than being based on an arbitrary number of dollars earned, it is based on earnings compared to everyone else. Dare I say it, it sounds like a fair tax system.

  3. Jimmie 3

    Right say we went down your scenario and we rounded up every $$ in the world from every person, company and other organisation, then doled up a even portion to every person weekly regardless of their age/skill level/need/employment or earning status.

    A few questions then arise:

    A kid leaves school at age 16: He has been earning his $10K US a year since he was born. He now leaves school still collecting his $10K. His parents tell him to go get a job. He goes to them “why’?

    So you can earn your $10K a year to live off is the reply. But I’m getting it any way why should I have to work – I’ll go surfing instead knowing that my $10K is coming in regardless.

    Think of a farmer planting a crop of wheat. He only gets $10K US a year. Out of this he has to live plus pay for his wheat seed, tractor costs, fertilizer, labour and other costs to plant his crop.

    At harvest time he sells his wheat but cannot make any profit as his proceeds all go to the government to pay everyone’s $10K

    So when he gets up at dawn the next day, he thinks to himself, why don’t I just go back to sleep – gonna get paid the same anyway.

    If this scenario did play out within a short time the productive and motivated members of society would give up and suddenly the $$$ to pay everyone disappears. People have to have a reward system in order to push themselves to peform and be productive.

    Just look at the USSR and other eastern European countries during the communist era as a prime example of how to run economies into the ground through an enforced socialist regime. Great in theory but crap in practice because people just dont work/think like idealist socialists.

    • burt 3.1

      Jimmie

      Great in theory but crap in practice because people just dont work/think like idealist socialists.

      The point that socialism always fails is neither here nor there when there are elections to be won. It’s a popular notion and people buy it – that’s why self serving power hungry losers pretend it works to get elected.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1

        It’s capitalism that always fails as we’ve just been reminded – again – and yet we have the rich pricks and economists trying to tell us that what we see isn’t what we’re seeing.

        • burt 3.1.1.1

          So…

          Are you saying that the motivation of US social policy to extend mortgages to people who couldn’t even save a 2% deposit creating the sub prime mortgage crisis was capitalism at work?

          Or are you saying the desire to own a house when you have been unable to afford to even pay rent is capitalism at work?

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1

            Are you saying that the motivation of US social policy to extend mortgages to people who couldn’t even save a 2% deposit creating the sub prime mortgage crisis was capitalism at work?

            Yep. The changes to regulations and policy were driven by the financial sector. The securitisation and financialisation of those new mortgage “assets” through RMBS occurred almost immediately.

            And over 90% of the fraud which occurred re “liars loans” and “NINJA” loans came from the side of staff and managers in the financial institutions, not from the side of the people borrowing money.

            The large banks and credit ratings agencies knew from the get-go that the mortgage portfolios they were creating and rating were toxic and false assets. But there was just so much money to be made palming them off to state pension funds and the like!

            *NINJA loan: “No Income, No Job or Assets” loan

            • burt 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Fixed that for you CV;

              The large banks and credit ratings agencies state lenders knew from the get-go that the mortgage portfolios they were creating and rating were toxic and false assets. But there was just so much money political capital in better home ownership social indicators to be made. palming them off to state pension funds and the like!

              It was socialist intervention at it’s finest CV ! Do anything to make the situation look better so you can stay in power rather than admit your policies are a fricken failure.

              • RedLogix

                So this was all a Big Socialist program under a Republican Administration?

                No private banks involved eh? No-one was in it for the money?

                burt would never retrospectively re-write history?

                • burt

                  Can you explain to me how big banks took over the state lenders and ‘forced’ them to improve social indicators for the government ?

                  [And yes there is an answer to that as well. Called ‘regulatory capture’ and the ‘revolving door’, where a combination of big money donations into the political system and the constant flow of people between the banks and the agencies meant to be monitoring and regulating them… essentially meant that for their purposes the banks did indeed ‘take over’ the state lenders. The ‘improved social indicator’ message was just some convenient flim-flam for the media….RL]

                  • RedLogix

                    Can you answer a single straight question with a straight answer?

                    • burt

                      It was socialist intervention at it’s finest CV ! Do anything to make the situation look better so you can stay in power rather than admit your policies are a fricken failure.

                      Answered !

                    • RedLogix

                      So no private banks were in it for the money or committed any fraud? Just innocent victims of a big socialist scam that the well-known communist GW Bush foisted on them?

                    • burt

                      I wouldn’t say that at all, but had the political desire not been there to improve social indicators for self serving “socialist ideals” then the banks wouldn’t have had anything to do with this.

                    • If it were all a socialist plot, why didn’t they just give the money away directly instead of loaning it? o_O

                      loans only make sense if someone wants to profit off them.

                  • RedLogix

                    So no banks demanding ‘de-regulation’ or pushing ‘innovating lending products’? No-one demanded the removal of the Glass-Steagall Act, it just got removed because the govt of the day felt like it?

                    I could go on but maybe you need to read some essential Steve Keen.

                    • burt

                      A link with “click on Marx’s image to download this post in PDF format” – that’s a real balanced view I so urgently need to re-educate myself with. Fark-in-hell !

                    • felix

                      Don’t worry burt, you can’t catch it from a click 😉

              • Colonial Viper

                The large banks and credit ratings agencies state lenders knew from the get-go that the mortgage portfolios they were creating and rating were toxic and false assets.

                Factually incorrect burt – Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were amongst the last entrants into the subprime mortgage market. The private sector institutions were in there years before they entered that market.

                BTW socialist policies leave the wealthy capitalists screwed, not the ordinary people. That’s how you can tell that they are “socialist”.

          • mike e 3.1.1.1.2

            Burt so capitalism’s answer is to bulldoze excess housing or leave a million houses empty to dilapidate or be squatted in while people sleep under under passes and card board boxes.
            When it would make more sense to rent these house cheaply or have a lower mortgage and not cut off ones money supply to prove who has all the power.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.3

            Are you saying that the motivation of US social policy to extend mortgages to people who couldn’t even save a 2% deposit creating the sub prime mortgage crisis was capitalism at work?

            Yes, other wise known as pure sociopathic greed.

            • burt 3.1.1.1.3.1

              Pure sociopathic greed on the part of the politicians controlling the state lenders… left leaning sociopathic greed for validation of socialist clap-trap policies that were always going to fail. – Name one place where the state extending credit to poor people in an attempt to improve social indicators has worked out ?

              • muzza

                Burt you are just being obnoxious eh!

                You can’t seriously be that ill-informed right?

                Clinton’s Democratic govt were the initiators!

              • Bunji

                micro-credit in Bangladesh…

              • Draco T Bastard

                Tell me burt, why do you, and all other RWNJs, always ask if somethings been done before? The obvious answer is probably not but that’s no reason not to do it now.

                As Bunji points out, micro-credit has been done and it’s working fine (in fact the person who started it found out that the defaults were less than what he would have got loaning out to the well off) but it hasn’t been done by the government.

                • Jeremy Harris

                  Tell me burt, why do you, and all other RWNJs, always ask if somethings been done before? The obvious answer is probably not but that’s no reason not to do it now.

                  LOL! I’ll have to remember that quote the next time some communistic mental case starts talking about the precautionary principle…

          • Georgecom 3.1.1.1.4

            Burt, financialisation of the US economy. US state financial institutions certainly played the game, along with the US capitalist forces. The state house lending didn’t happen in a vacuum however. The financialisation of the US economy was a deliberate neo-liberal capitalist policy prescription. The rules were written and the US state house lending institutions were foolish enough to play along.

            The notion of owning your own home, the ‘political capital’ to be made from it. Burt, that is capitalist stuff through and through. Make people ‘owners’ within the capitalist society, cement them into the prevailing hegemony. One persons desire for home ownership is simply one persons desire. The system however is part of reproducing the capitalist hegemony. Unfortunately for the ‘one person’ and US home owners and the capitalist hegemony, neo-liberal capitalism created a financial house of cards which went toxic and quickly contaminated the global financial system.

      • Georgecom 3.1.2

        Burt, you’ll find that for the past 30 years such people have been promoting neo-liberal capitalism.

        The world needs better than that however. Neo-liberalism hasn’t been a big success to date and there is no reason it will succeed anytime shortly. It has left a toxic mess in the global economy. It has left some fairly major social messes for sovereign states to clean up. It has created and will continue to exacerbate some serious environmental challenges ahead of humanity.

        There isn’t an ‘ism’ yet which will address these issues or at least allow us to negotiate our way through them in reasonable condition. I can state however that it will involve some degree of social, it will be some form of social(ism). This type of social(ism) may be fairly dynamic and will mark a (at least partial) repudiation of neo-liberal capitalism and what it stands for.

    • Dylan 3.2

      The point of stats like these is not to say “the world should work like this, i.e. with everyone getting the same income”, it’s to say “look, clearly the way the world is is not how it HAS to be, because there’s enough to go around. So, it’s not impossible to have more fairness—now let’s try to make it happen, having demonstrated it’s not impossible”.

      The stats are about showing that people who say it’s impossible for things to be fairer are wrong. And now, let’s move on and do practical things to make more fairness happen, since it’s clearly not impossible.

      It’s disingenuous to read the stats (and article based on them) as saying “everyone should have the same income”. It’s deliberately missing the point, I would say.

    • RedLogix 3.3

      Way to ignore the fact that far too many people in the world have next to nothing, and a tiny minority have far too much.

      But I guess I’m just a socialist for noticing that.

      People have to have a reward system in order to push themselves to peform and be productive.

      That’s only an assumption you are making because you’ve grown up in a very narrow society which has presented you with no other alternative motivation.

      • Reagan Cline 3.3.1

        Carrot and stick. Some of the drive to make more money is fear of begging on the streets and getting poor quality health care. The US has beggars, Actually so did the Soviet Union in 1973 – I saw rhem at railway stations. There has to be a fundamental, almost unimagineable change in the way we think of ourselves as himan beings – it amounts to a religious movement.

        • RedLogix 3.3.1.1

          Actually so did the Soviet Union in 1973

          A young man with no legs… at all. On a crappy little wooden cart in the Ekaterinburg rail station. What you’d call a persistent memory.

          Oh and it was -20C below that day.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.4

      Standard RWNJ load of bollocks.

      Why should the person work? For a number of reasons:-

      1.) It serves a purpose
      2.) They find it interesting and a challenge (not everyone is so boring as to want to be a full time surfer)
      3.) Social interaction

      Really, all you’re actually complaining about is that the rich won’t be able to force people to work for them for minimum wage and thus keeping them rich. You’re complaining that the rich won’t be able to oppress everybody else.

      • alex 3.4.1

        Yep, personally I really enjoy working, and having been briefly unemployed I can safely say it sucks. You are often lonely and lose a lot of your sense of self worth. I think 99% of people currently unemployed would say they would rather be working than not. Completely agree that people would want to keep working if the pay scale wasn’t so extremely stratified.

    • alex 3.5

      @Jimmie – Perhaps some form of reward system has to exist, but surely you concede that the current reward system is extremely unequal, quite unfair in terms of who has access to it and creates vast wealth disparities?

    • Colonial Viper 3.6

      If this scenario did play out within a short time the productive and motivated members of society would give up and suddenly the $$$ to pay everyone disappears. People have to have a reward system in order to push themselves to peform and be productive.

      Grow up man, every management text book says that money makes up no more than about 30% of someone’s satisfaction with doing a job. For most people, money is an important, but not the dominant driver of their behaviour. Having a place in society, being recognised by your peers, a feeling of having being challenged and accomplished something, those are far more important drivers.

      Unless of course you are a neoliberal sociopath.

    • Bunji 3.7

      Actually Jimmie I wasn’t being so radical as to advocate just giving every soul $US10k, more saying there was plenty to go around. I’ll leave actually advocating a system to another day.

      But surely you must see a problem with a system that has 2 billion people – 1/3 of the world’s population – living on $2 or less per day, regardless of how hard they work? Particularly when there is plenty of money to go around if we found a way of redistributing it better?

      Getting $2 per day isn’t much of a reward system either…

    • Mike 3.8

      Obviously under our monetary and economic system everyone can’t just be paid the same, but you mentioned in your post – “If this scenario did play out within a short time the productive and motivated members of society would give up and suddenly the $$$ to pay everyone disappears.”

      So where would the $$$ to pay everyone suddenly disappear to??

  4. The average wage distorts the reality in each country because the wealthy distort the average and the greater the disparity in incomes, the greater the distortion.

    The average of the following five annual incomes is $50,000:
    $15,000
    $20,000
    $25,000
    $30,000
    $160,000
    The median income of the above list is $25,000, which more accurately represents what the most likely income would be (exactly half of the average).

    In New Zealand the average income is around $50,000 and yet the median income is only $27,000. I would imagine the median income in the US wouldn’t be much different from in New Zealand given the huge extremes in wealth in their country and the large number of illegal workers who earn very little.

    It would be interesting to see a table displaying a combination of the average income and the median as this would reveal the level of income disparity in each country.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      By the way, non-earning partners of those making >$150K pa do not usually think of themselves as being in a low income circumstance. An interesting psychological twist to consider.

      • burt 4.1.1

        Yeah, and that income spilt between two people pays less tax than that income in the hands of one. An interesting tax policy distortion to consider.

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1

          The tax policy distorts the way it is meant to – it encourages workers to work a day or two less creating part time jobs allowing non workers to get to work.

          • RedLogix 4.1.1.1.1

            And a tax policy distortion that is one of many automatically eliminated by the UBI and Flat Tax proposal.

            • burt 4.1.1.1.1.1

              RedLogix

              It seems CV likes social engineering implemented via the tax system. God forbid families chose their own mix of work and life balance based on what works for them – much easier if the state just makes it punitive to not follow the way nanny wants you to live.

              The fun thing is though, CV will defend the distortion here then a few threads later agree with you about UBI… good luck getting him to give up the social engineering potential of progressive taxation though – I doubt as a socialist he would ever want to loose control of the definition of high earnings.

              • RedLogix

                good luck getting him to give up the social engineering potential of progressive taxation though

                The combination of a ‘negative tax’ UBI and a ‘positive tax’ PAYE is in fact nicely progressive.

                Toss in a moderate CGT and FTT… and it’s still redistributive alright.

                • burt

                  I have no argument with you RedLogix, I would support you all the way with this type of policy. Just don’t expect CV to give up his talking points but one at a time he will concede they are wrong… enjoy twisting his miniscule brain around the ‘red logic’ loops. 😉

  5. KeepOurAssetsDon'tSell. 5

    How Wealthy do you feel? :
    The Fruits of a Society which enshrines Inequality:

    The Banana States of America where 50,000,000 people exist on food handouts and the crooks in Wall Street are part of the government and get their CDS casino plays worth billions bailed out.The same country whose modus operandi Shonkey continues to follow: their rich shaft the poor idealogy:NeoLiberalism (Now selling off OUR ASSETS for his rich class mates benefit). Where inequality is celebrated as the Ayn Rand natural order of things. Where you have War Criminal Presidents: Bush the Iraq Invader.

    Work-place and college-campus slaughters have become a regular feature of America’s harsh economic landscape the past few decades, as Ayn Rand-style policies sharply divide the nation into a few heroic “winners” and many hapless “losers,” a factor Mark Ames examines in the latest college bloodbath.

    an inequality-ravaged America where opportunity and dignity are scarcer and scarcer.What’s with the Ayn Randian lack of empathy in this country among the non-oligarchy caste?

    The idea that you can reinvent yourself, that your fate is in your own hands, that you have the power inside of you to make yourself a winner (and if you fail, it’s all your own fault) — this may be America’s most toxic cultural snake-oil. And yet it never fails to find takers.

    link:http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/04/08-3

    • KeepOurAssetsDon'tSell. 5.1

      If I were a low paid working couple trying to save enough for a house deposit in a sellers’ market grossly overinflated by the get rich types who aren’t happy with 1 house and a bach but with easy fiat junk money from the banks buy up other houses so the wage slaves can pay the bank plus interest and give a capital gain to the landlord when he sells who votes for the party who refuses to pop this scam by a capital gains tax: (breathe) I would not feel wealthy in that land or wanted.

      As J. K Galbraith’s mordent remark highlights, “free-market” economics is based on a sentence:

      that the poor don’t work hard enough because they’re paid too much and the the rich don’t work hard enough because they’re are paid too little.(reminds me of the crazy executive salaries paid out in this country!)

      You see, when right libertarians are arguing against too much government or the state ( Through Privatization of Public services and Utilities) , they are arguing against a state that is accountable to the populace, that is democratically controlled by the populace, and what they in effect seek to do is create a privately controlled state, ( One that is only nominally democratic where all parties advocate shades of the same colour ) that bows only to owners of land and capital, with force being wielded by private armies that side only with those that can afford them, the already super rich.

  6. There is no ‘cult’ of the individual. Under capitalism the individual is the product of capitalist production where everything appears as an equal exchange of commodities. So capitalism produces individuals and such individuals will only end with capitalism.

    Before capitalism, there were no ‘individuals’ in the capitalist sense rather members of collective societies, or in the case of slave and tributary societies, classes. Capitalism revolutionised this by creating individuals who could own their own ‘private’ property, even though this ‘property’ owed its existence to the collective labour of the working class. 

    Thus while the workers formally ‘owned’ his/her labour power sold for a wage, this ‘worker/individual’ was very different from the ‘capitalist/individual’ because the latter expropriated the surplus value of the former.

    The idea that the individual is natural was projected back into history from the 17th century, notoriously as the “Robinson Crusoe” mythology where Man Friday was a barely human nobody living a ‘barbaric’ existence.

    In fact Friday was a member of a collective in which the individual did not exist other than as part of the group. Such groups produced and consumed for their own needs, and no individual was able to appropriate their own ‘private property’.

    This changed when the organisers of such collective societies, women, ensured that the social produced was distributed according to needs, were overthrown by their brothers who appropriated social wealth as the private property of the patriarchal family.

    You can see this ‘revolution’ taking place in the history of Ancient Greece where women resisted but were overcome by males bonded in military bands, expressed of course as the rise of the ‘winners’ the slave owners, over the ‘losers’ the slaves. This was rationalised in the patriarchal/slave mode of thinking where men are ‘naturally’ winners and woman losers.

    Not much has changed although the slave owners have become more civilised and abolished slavery in formal terms but maintained it under various international laws defending the rights of private property.

    Since the 16th century capitalism has taken over the world like a virus so that everybody thinks as capitalism thinks – that is its fair and equal and therefore poverty is a personal failure or a throwback to barbarism. 

    That includes demonising any attempt to try a socialist alternative as worse than capitalism.
    Calling the soviet union ‘communist’ is like calling Christ the Pope.

    The socialist revolution in Russia was overcome by global capitalism in much the same was as women in Ancient Greece were overthrown by slave owners. In the twisted logic of capitalism this is supposed to prove that the capitalist/patriarchy is the only viable form of society.

    Well there is one problem with this. As the figures on wealth distribution show. The vast majority in this world are exploited by the tiny minority. The ‘winners’ cannot win without constantly proving that their wealth derives from the labour of the ‘losers’.

    The most recent absurdity was the bailing out of failed banks and as a result countries. Only their sheer power to control and manipulate the state, law, media etc allows capitalists to maintain a system based on such transparent hypocrisy.

    Capitalism’s nemesis is in its genes however. To survive it has to empower each generation of youth with the knowledge to increase the productivity of labour (aka the rate of expropriation of surplus labour).

    When they are denied that opportunity by the collapse of the economy, and a huge generational wealth gap explodes, educated youth have the knowledge to recognise lies and to discover the truth about capitalism. 

    We live in exciting times.
     

    • RedLogix 6.1

      That’s a bit of a wander, but yes it’s much the same as my own thinking these days dave.

      There’s quite a lot of material around that more or less ties into this theme, often starting from quite divergent starting points yet all converging on the idea that it was the adoption of agriculture, the logical consequence of private property, the need for military force to defend it, the rise of hierarchy and patriarchy… was all a terrible mistake from which the human race may not yet recover.

      There’s scope for someone to pull a lot of these fascinating threads together. Jared Diamond has made a couple of great contributions.

      Yet the past 10,000 years were not wholly wasted. If nothing else we have learnt a great deal. The nub of the problem, one that remains unresolved, is how to restore the true pre-agricultural human heritage based on the principles of equality, altruism and community, retain the best of what we have developed through science and engineering, and attain an ecologic balance with the planet.

      I think we all have some intuitions and part-formed ideas around this challenge; and is a theme I remain insatiably curious about.

      • Vicky32 6.1.1

        often starting from quite divergent starting points yet all converging on the idea that it was the adoption of agriculture,

        I remember saying as much when I was studying sociology at University of Auckland in 1999, and getting a serve from the (RW) lecturer… what I actually said was “so agriculture can be regarded as the original sin, hey?” and she went off on a tear… 🙂

        • RedLogix 6.1.1.1

          What fascinates me is how far ‘civilisation’ takes us from our ‘evolved preferences’. There were after all some 500,000 generations of humans prior to agriculture, yet barely 500 since. And we wonder why this modern world discomforts us in so many ways. And on so many levels.

          Not for an instant do I imagine we could or should turn the clock back 10,000 years. But there are important lessons to be learnt if we open our minds to the idea that pre-agricultural human life was not at all the Hobbesian ‘short, brutal and nasty’ stereotype we have been taught to think it was.

          Or that everything pre-literate was necessarily barbaric. And that human nature as we know it solely from the written record, is the only form it can take.

    • Reagan Cline 6.2

      I disagree. The socialist revolution in Russia was overcome (I would say captured) by the Bolsheviks led by V I Lenin. I am still not sure where all the funding came from – quite a lot from Russian capitalists for sure. The failure of Leninism proves that the model he had of society was false. We need to search for a new understanding. Starting with a good look at what it means to be human.

      • RedLogix 6.3.1

        Interestingly when you dig deep enough socialism and libertarianism fold back onto each other in one common theme…the intrinsic worth and rights of the individual.

        Unfortunately from there they march off in entirely opposed directions.

        • locus 6.3.1.1

          Individualism with consideration for others in society versus individualism in pursuit of your own selfish vision of happiness

      • locus 6.3.2

        Looks like a kind of crossover between anarchism and randism.

      • Draco T Bastard 6.3.3

        Libertarian propaganda. Yes, hierarchical systems equate to slavery but it’s the economic freedoms that they want that produce that slavery.

  7. Dr Terry 7

    A rather good debate here, with more than usual good points made. May discussion continue.

  8. Jenny 8

    It misses a number of very poor countries, including some large ones like Nigeria.

    BUNJI

    Actually Nigeria is not a “very poor country”. In fact, it is the opposite, being a very wealthy petro state. Nigeria is a terribly unequal society, where extreme inequality is maintained through force by a military dictatorship, which aids and assists the foreign oil companies exploiting that country’s mineral wealth to the detriment of the environment and the majority of the population.

    On a small scale, Nigeria proves Bunji’s argument. Indeed I would guess, that if just the oil profits of Nigeria were shared equally, despite being the most populous country in Africa Nigerians would probably have annual incomes greater than most Kiwis.

    In fact I would go further and say that Nigeria is a microcosm of the wider world, where instead of violence, government regulation and bureaucracy, plus tradition and inertia, serve to generally favour the elites over the rest of us. Maybe not in an openly and extremely violent way as in Nigeria, but never the less still preserving and even expanding inequality.

    Greenpeace have a saying: The world has enough for our need but not for our greed.

    As the bio-sphere degrades and peak oil passes, in the face of the resulting financial and economic and environmental collapse, it is quite likely that the established elites of the West will also revert to the more primitive means of preserving inequality.

    As the peril deepens, we may have to give the famous quote a harder edge to say: “The world has enough for our needy but not for our greedy.”

  9. Uturn 9

    I can see where the sentiment of the original original article is going, but it has unintentionally measured socialism by capitalism’s definition of socialism and come up with the “wrong” answer.

    It says money is a direct measure (1:1) of commodity and labour value. Which of course, it isn’t.

    It then carries that error forward and says that money redistributed equally will solve poverty. Which it won’t.

    For a rather extreme example, imagine a now starving child in North Africa, given US$10,000 this afternoon. Where would he spend it, considering his village, or the collection of rammed-earth huts that are called a village, has no running water, no transport, no tools and no food; no infrastructure at all. In fact the land is experiencing famine and war, which is why they people are dying. How does the $US10,000 help him?

    There are many undisclosed problems that have been taken for granted, as if an African village is just like the Auckland CBD without electricity; that if you hand ten random people from ten different points of the globe $10, they will automatically know what you are giving them, apply comfortable western importance to it, and please us with their choices. It is believed that the Inuit Hunter at the ice caps will use it to treat frostbite, just as a suburban housewife in Te Atatu would use it to wash her clothes. It is culturally offensive. This is not in the spirit of socialist movements.

    I will quickly say here that just because redistribution of a finite limit of dollars won’t solve poverty, it does not mean that capitalism is the only alternative or that nothing should be done.

    What it is, is bourgeois socialism.

    From The Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx and Frederick Engels:

    “3.2 Conservative or Bourgeois Socialism.

    A part of the bourgeoisie is desirous of redressing social grievances, in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society. To this section belongs economists, philanthropists, humanitarians, improvers of the condition of the working class, organisers of charity, members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, temperance fanatics, hole-and-corner reformers of every imaginable kind. This form of socialism has, moreover, been worked out into complete systems. We may cite Proudhon’s Philosophy of Poverty as an example of this form.

    The socialistic bourgeois want all the advantages of modern social conditions without the struggles and dangers necessarily resulting from them. They desire the existing state of society minus it;s revolutionary disintegrating elements. They wish for a bourgeoisie without a proletariat. The bourgeoisie naturally conceives the world in which it is supreme to be the best; and bourgeois socialism develops this comfortable conception into various more or less complex systems. In requiring the proletariat to carry out such a system, and thereby to march straightway into the new social Jerusalem. It but requires in reality, that the proletariat should remain within the bounds of existing society, but should cast away all its hateful ideas concerning the bourgeoisie.

    A second, and more practical, but less systematic, form of this socialism sought to depreciate every revolutionary movement in the eyes of the working class, by showing that no mere political reform, but only a change in the material conditions of existence, in economical relations, could be of any advantage to them. by changes in the material conditions of existence, this form of socialism, however, by no means understands abolition of the bourgeois relations of production, an abolition that can only be affected by revolution, but administrative reforms, based on continued existence of these relations; reforms therefore, that in no respect affect the relations between capital and labour,but, at best, lessen the cost, and simplify the administrative work of the bourgeoisie government.

    Bourgeois socialism attains adequate expression when, and only when, it becomes a mere figure of speech.

    Free trade: for the benefit of the working class.

    Protective duties: for the benefit of the working class.

    Prison reform: for the benefit of the working class.

    This is the last word and only seriously meant word of bourgeois socialism. It is summed up in the phrase: the bourgeois is a bourgeois – for the benefit of the working class…”

    So in general, this far out from any real NZ “revolution” it’s ok to be thinking like BUNJI – if he/she actually needed anyone’s permission – but let’s be certain we know what it is being proposed. It is a re-jig of the existing corrupted system, dressed nicely, to make it seem less corrupt for a few days months or minutes, until capitalism kicks in again. The way to reorganising society comes from the people, of each region or country, deciding from the bottom up with solutions relevent to them. When it is a top-down enforced system, we get castes and racism.

    The reason societal change is so unpalatable to people, is that they do not know what the middle classes really are, so they desperately defend them or attempt “compromises”. The middle classes are CAPITALISTS. Do you really want them running your socialism?

    • Colonial Viper 9.1

      The middle classes are CAPITALISTS. Do you really want them running your socialism?

      Indeed. And they’re not even that “middle”, comprising roughly the top 15%-20% of income earners in this country.

  10. Uturn 10

    Ok for some reason I can’t post what I’ve just written with direct references, so here’s the executive summary:

    What you’re describing is bourgeois socialism – somewhat an oxymoron: the elevation of the middle classes for “the benefit of the working class”. The middle classes are capitalists by definition, why would you want them running your socialism? And as other posters have now discovered, $1 in North Africa is not the same as one dollar just out from a Inuit camp or inside a suburban mall. Different cultural values, different needs.

    • burt 10.1

      The middle classes are capitalists by definition, why would you want them running your socialism?

      That is a question all Labour voters need to be asked !

  11. tsmithfield 11

    The folly of absolute socialism can be easily demonstrated.

    Suppose we had a system where 50% of the citizens were producers. The other 50% were inactive. Yet the inactive get paid exactly the same as the producers who exert considerable effort for their income. What motivation is there then for the producers to keep producing? Why not become inactive and receive the same amount for doing nothing?

    • RedLogix 11.1

      1. Maybe no-one is suggesting your silly scenario?

      2. Maybe you can’t imagine any motivation other than monetary.

      3. Maybe you have a surplus of straw at your place and you’re trying to offload it here?

      • Reagan Cline 11.1.1

        Motivation other than monetary. Yes that could be part of the answer.
        Everyone feeling safe from poverty, without having to pay for that privilege.
        Money is a useful tool.
        The problem is many people who need it do not have enough and others have too much.
        Maybe money is allocated according to unsatisfactory criteria.
        How would we decide how much money each person needs ?
        Money allocated according to need (allocated by what or whom ?).
        I can see how greed and fear would hamper the changes that seem to be needed.

      • Anne 11.1.2

        You’re too polite RedLogix

        It would be hard to find a more mindless, totally illogical load of crap than that which has just emanated from tsmithfield. I really can’t think of the right words to describe it. Suffice to say, not even ‘you know who’ is guilty of such a lunatic comment.

    • TS, your education is lacking.
      Don’t you realise that with some adjustment to the proportions you suggest, 99%/1% is the one favoured at the moment, but probably 80/20 is closer to the mark, the working class produces the wealth which the capitalist class and its paid lackeys expropriates?
      Why don’t the workers refuse to work you ask? Because if they did they would starve since work is the only means of subsistence. Capitalism could only arise by forcing commoners off the commons and turning everything into private property forcing workers to work for a wage or die.
      We need a revolution to change this system so that work is allocated by a plan arrived at by a democratic process of identifying needs and allocating resources. Occupy kicked this off when the banks were targeted as crooks and public spaces places where the commoners could revive their politics. The revolutionary process has been set in motion.
       

    • Draco T Bastard 11.3

      Why are only 50% producing?

      • felix 11.3.1

        Because smitty is defining production as “the type of things that my friends and I like to do”.

  12. tsmithfield 12

    RL “1. Maybe no-one is suggesting your silly scenario?”

    Actually, so far as income distribution goes, that is what we were asked to imagine at the start of the article:

    “If everyone earned the same amount (including babies) across the entire world, we’d each get about $USD10,000 each…”

    The fact that some are producers and some are inactive goes without saying.

    In the scenario where everyone including babies gets exactly the same, the motivation would be to produce babies, rather than produce anything else. That is because, due to economies of scale, the more babies you have will increase wealth.

    “2. Maybe you can’t imagine any motivation other than monetary.”

    But maybe you need to study social loafing.

    As I remember it, social loafing is more likely in larger groups where there is less likelihood the loafing will be noticed than in small groups, where loafers tend to be despised.

    “3. Maybe you have a surplus of straw at your place and you’re trying to offload it here?”

    Actually, the scenario I proposed in my first post is closer to the truth than you think. In a scenario where producers see loafers getting similar amounts, and the producers therefore slacken the effort, income available to the group from production will decrease.

    Notice, in my scenario I didn’t say the individual income would therefore decrease. That is because the governing officials of the group incur increasingly high deficits to keep the income to individuals the same. Sound familiar?

    • RedLogix 12.1

      Actually, so far as income distribution goes, that is what we were asked to imagine at the start of the article:

      Way to absolutely miss the point. No-one is suggesting that babies get paid the same as adults.. that should have been a clue no? It was merely a way of expressing how much wealth there is in the world… put in terms that most people can grasp.

      PS.. Your link to social loafing includes some interesting notes:

      Reducing social loafing

      According to Dan J. Rothwell, it takes “the three C’s of motivation” to get a group moving: collaboration, content, and choice. Thus, the answer to social loafing may be motivation. A competitive environment may not necessarily get group members motivated.

      Collaboration is a way to get everyone involved in the group by assigning each member special, meaningful tasks. It is a way for the group members to share the knowledge and the tasks to be fulfilled unfailingly. For example, if Sally and Paul were loafing because they were not given specific tasks, then giving Paul the note taker duty and Sally the brainstorming duty will make them feel essential to the group. Sally and Paul will be less likely to want to let the group down, because they have specific obligations to complete.

      Content identifies the importance of the individual’s specific tasks within the group. If group members see their role as that involved in completing a worthy task, then they are more likely to fulfill it. For example, Sally may enjoy brainstorming, as she knows that she will bring a lot to the group if she fulfills this obligation. She feels that her obligation will be valued by the group.

      Choice gives the group members the opportunity to choose the task they want to fulfill. Assigning roles in a group causes complaints and frustration. Allowing group members the freedom to choose their role makes social loafing less significant, and encourages the members to work together as a team.

      All things that us socialists keep yammering on about…no?

      • tsmithfield 12.1.1

        Similarly, I wasn’t actually suggesting that weatlh could be distributed equally to every individual. However, the scenario was illustrating the effect of social loafing.

        Notice, I said above, that social loafing is more likely in bigger groups. Well, society is a big group. Notice also that I said that social loafing is less tolerated in small groups because it is obvious who is loafing. Well, that is also similar to society today because unemployment figures are well publicised, and examples of loafers are often pointed out in the media. Thus, producers are likely to feel highly pissed off by who they perceive to be loafers, and my well tend to decrease their effort because they feel they are supporting undeserving members of the group.

        I agree, some of this attitude from producers may well be due to perception rather than reality. But the effect could be the same.

        • RedLogix 12.1.1.1

          1. Imagine a world in which one individual owned everything.

          One consequence is that no-one else would bother doing anything because that one individual already has everything.

          2. Imagine a world in which all income was distributed absolutely equally.

          One consequence is that no-one would bother doing anything because of ‘social loafing’?

          Of course both are worthless arguments, but it’s still instructive to ask which one of these scenarios is closer to reality?

        • Reagan Cline 12.1.1.2

          What is “loafing” and does it ever reduce the sum of human suffering ?

          • RedLogix 12.1.1.2.1

            It’s something that offends ts because he feels that he’s a hard-working ‘productive’ member of society… while the rest of us are lounging about having far too much fun doing nothing.

        • just saying 12.1.1.3

          From the same link

          In 1989, Christopher P. Earley hypothesized that social loafing would be mitigated in collectivist cultures that focus more on achievement of the group than the individual. He conducted a study in the United States and China, two polar opposites in terms of culture (with the U.S. being individualistic and China being collectivist), in order to determine if a difference in social loafing was present between the two types of cultures. Earley formed groups from both countries similar in demographics and in time spent with each other (participants in each of the groups had known each other for three to five weeks). Each group was tasked with completing various forms of paperwork similar to work they would be required to do in their profession. The paperwork was designed to take two to five minutes for each item, and the items were turned in to an assistant when completed so that no one could judge their work compared to others. Each participant was given 60 minutes to complete as many items as possible and was separated into either the high-accountability group, where they were told they needed to achieve a group goal, or a low-accountability group, where they were told they were to achieve a goal alone. They were also separated into high and low shared responsibility groups. It was found that, consistent with other studies, highly individualistic people performed more poorly on the task when there was high shared responsibility and low accountability than when there was high accountability. The collectivists, however, performed somewhat better on the task when high shared responsibility was present, regardless of how accountable they were supposed to be as compared to when they were working alone. This evidence shows that collectivist thinking eliminates the social loafing effect, ….

          What sort of personality/behaviour is rewarded in the competitive and individualistic world you advocate TS? And isn’t neoliberalism all but a prescription for social loafing, where individuals can get away with it?

          I remember learning about pro-social vs pro-self personalities (about 70/30 in our society from memory). What interested me was the fact that pro-self individuals could be motivated to behave pro-socially, but only if things were set-up so that it was in their interest to do so.

          Sounds a bit like ah, socialism…

          If you are serious in your concern about the problem of social loafing…

    • locus 12.2

      Thanks for your loafing link TS – were you loafing or did you actually read it?! Let me quote from it:

      This evidence shows that collectivist thinking eliminates the social loafing effect, and further evidence done from a similar study showed the effect was related to the collectivist thinking rather than the country, as individualistic Chinese workers did indeed show a social loafing effect.

  13. tsmithfield 13

    RL “PS.. Your link to social loafing includes some interesting notes:”

    Yes, I am aware of that. However, that is nothing really to do with socialism or capitalism. An organisation that collaborates will be able to compete more effectively against those that don’t. So this would fit nicely within a capitalistic model.

    So far as society goes, using the analogy we have been discussing, producers would accept non-producing behaviour if it is providing other tangible benefits to the group. For instance, non-producers might run a creche so producers can produce more etc. So, in that case, producers wouldn’t perceive non-producers to be loafing.

    I agree that it is good for society and for the self-esteem of the individual members for all members to be contributing to society at the level that they are capable of doing so. However, there are a lot that aren’t doing that, would you agree?

    • felix 13.1

      “Producers”.

      Producing what, exactly?

    • RedLogix 13.2

      An organisation that collaborates will be able to compete more effectively against those that don’t. So this would fit nicely within a capitalistic model.

      Well in reality most capitalist, corporate workplaces fail dismally in terms of the ‘three C’s’ …collaboration, content and choice. But as you say that’s by the way.

      However, there are a lot that aren’t doing that, would you agree?

      I’m inclined to answer that in several, not necessarily consistent ways.

      One is …so what? Who said maximum labour utlilisation was the sine qua non of human existence? Why does it matter if some people choose not to ‘work’ or contribute in ways you find useful. Their lives may well be perfectly useful to them and who are we to question that?

      Secondly I’d ask you to imagine a world in which all people had their basic needs for food and shelter automatically met. Would they stop doing seeking to do meaningful and interesting things as a consequence? I doubt it. In fact it’s not hard to imagine that freed from the obligation to work, it might well allow for wholly new and creative endeavours to manifest.

      Thirdly I’d ask that even given the very lousy conditions of work most people experience… and how the average workplace is absolutely conducive to ‘social loafing’ the surprising thing is how motivated they are to keep turning up. This strongly suggests most people like to contribute, even when the odds are stacked against it.

      And fourthly… even if we narrowly allow that the only way to meaningfully contribute to the sum of human happiness is indeed to be in paid work… then where does the responsibility for ensuring that work is available lie?

      • Carol 13.2.1

        I wish those people who keep ringng lately trying to promote this or that, would loaf about more and stop making those calls. It’d contribute to my happiness.

      • tsmithfield 13.2.2

        “Why does it matter if some people choose not to ‘work’ or contribute in ways you find useful.”

        It doesn’t. If they aren’t relying on the “producers” to support them, they can do what ever they like. However, if they are perceived as loafing by the “producers” then the social loafing effects start kicking into gear.

        “Secondly I’d ask you to imagine a world in which all people had their basic needs for food and shelter automatically met. Would they stop doing seeking to do meaningful and interesting things as a consequence? I doubt it. In fact it’s not hard to imagine that freed from the obligation to work, it might well allow for wholly new and creative endeavours to manifest.”

        No problems there either. So long as their being “freed from the obligation to work” didn’t require others to work harder.

        “Thirdly I’d ask that even given the very lousy conditions of work most people experience… and how the average workplace is absolutely conducive to ‘social loafing’ the surprising thing is how motivated they are to keep turning up.”

        Agreed. I have qualifications in organisational psychology. So, this is of considerable interest to us in terms of increasing performance and effectiveness. e.g. Hackman and Oldham.

        “And fourthly… even if we narrowly allow that the only way to meaningfully contribute to the sum of human happiness is indeed to be in paid work… then where does the responsibility for ensuring that work is available lie?”

        I have not said everyone needs to be in paid work. Rather they need to be perceived as contributing something useful towards society. This may or may not be paid.

        • felix 13.2.2.1

          You keep saying “producers” but you haven’t defined production in any way shape or form. All we know for sure is that it doesn’t include early childhood education.

          So again I ask, producing what?

          I hope it’s something I consider useful.

          • tsmithfield 13.2.2.1.1

            A fairly broad term that encapsulates anyone who is generating income legally by the exercise of their skills, abilities, services, or provision of goods, that others are willing to pay for.

            Thus, voluntary workers would not be “producers” although, they may be seen as contributing value to society and thus not be perceived as loafing. If there were a co-operative to run a creche that was done on a voluntary basis to free producers to produce more, then they would not be considered loafing either. However, someone sitting on his arse all day playing playstation, and drawing a benefit when they have skills for which there are available jobs would be considered to be loafin.

            Hope that helps. 🙂

            • felix 13.2.2.1.1.1

              Sounds like it’d include quite a lot of useless bastards doing pointless things, and the more they’re extracting from society the more you value them as “productive”.

              And no value on education.

              All arse about face, smitty, it’ll never work because it’s built on false premises. Good thing no-one’s proposing it.

              • tsmithfield

                “Sounds like it’d include quite a lot of useless bastards doing pointless things, and the more they’re extracting from society the more you value them as “productive”.”

                If others are willing to pay, then it can hardly be called “extracting”.

                “And no value on education.”

                So long as that education has potential to contribute in the future, then it is an investment. However, if people become eternal students on the public teet, then it is close to becoming “loafing” in my opinion.

                • felix

                  If others are willing to pay, then it can hardly be called “extracting”.

                  So, a free market. That’s your outside-the-box thought experiment.

                  And one in which pre-school age children are eternal students and loafers. Good lord.

                  • tsmithfield

                    “And one in which pre-school age children are eternal students and loafers.”

                    I never meant that, and you know it.

                    But I have met people who have been at university for years doing endless courses with no apparent purpose to them, because, it seems to me, they don’t want to go out and face the real world.

                    • felix

                      The education we’ve been discussing is early childhood education, something you seem to regard as a hobby. I can’t be expected to anticipate your wild unannounced subject changes.

                      I think it’s time you faced the real world, the world of human beings as opposed to labour units.

            • Vicky32 13.2.2.1.1.2

              However, someone sitting on his arse all day playing playstation, and drawing a benefit when they have skills for which there are available jobs would be considered to be loafin.

              You can consider that loafing when and only when there’s something close to full employment!
              I have skills that I want to use. I spent this morning phoning language schools, including the one I worked for from October to December last year. I got 100% no responses, as every one of these schools is teetering on the brink and laying people off… What surprised me is how many of them were willing to admit as much to me, a comparative stranger!

          • Vicky32 13.2.2.1.2

            I hope it’s something I consider useful

            Making whim whams for gooses’ bridles! It’s bound to mean ‘making widgets’ of some description, or selling said widgets, which means that they must have built in obsolescence. Perhaps telemarketing for a widget company, or having 2 hours business lunches, for the purpose of widget-selling… 😀

        • RedLogix 13.2.2.2

          However, if they are perceived as loafing by the “producers” then the social loafing effects start kicking into gear.

          It’s not something that ever concerns me. Personally I never think about beneficiaries in those terms. On the contrary I consider myself deeply fortunate and privileged to have the health, the education and the skills to be well employed. Yet by sheer mis-chance of the seven adults in my immediate family I am the only one who is in that position.

          It never occurs to me to resent this. I see it as my responsibility not a burden. I’d argue that most people feel much the same as me.

          Where the effect does kick in is at the below median end of the pay scales… work that is so badly paid that at the end of the month families holding down two or more crappy jobs, tired and exhausted … look across their back fence to another family on a benefit and not a lot worse off for appearing to have done nothing. That is a recipe for resentment… but it’s more the consequence of our stupid distorted tax/welfare system than anything else.

          Rather they need to be perceived as contributing something useful towards society.

          On this we are on the same page. But this does hinge on is the question of what we ‘perceive to be useful to society’ does it not?

          • tsmithfield 13.2.2.2.1

            “Personally I never think about beneficiaries in those terms.”

            Neither do I when people lose their job, for instance, and can’t immediately get re-employed, or are sick, or disabled. Having said that, it is still quite surprising how people are able to find ways to contribute despite their circumstances. If you have ever seen the art produced by paraplegic artists, you would know what I mean. Or those who lose their jobs and can’t get re-employed might be able to find some voluntary work to do etc.

            However, where people refuse to work because it is easier to depend on the state, then that is different. I think this is where social loafing effects start to kick in, and producers, for instance, start to look for ways to avoid tax etc because they perceive that their money is being wasted on those who refuse to work; solo mothers who keep having more kids on a benefit etc, and it is perceived they are doing so to earn more in family support. As I said, this on occasions, could be due to perception rather than reality. But it is the effect we should be concerned about.

            “On this we are on the same page. But this does hinge on is the question of what we ‘perceive to be useful to society’ does it not?”

            I think that if the net effect is for society to be better off as a result, then that would satisfy me. Measuring that, of course, would be difficult, and we would probably have areas of disagreement.

            • RedLogix 13.2.2.2.1.1

              Has it ever occurred to you that all people are intrinsically of value?

              My perspective is that prior to the adoption of agriculture, industrialisation and the privatisation of all the means of support and production… most human beings could live quite happy long lives as hunter gatherers. Most ‘worked’ no more than 10 hours a week gathering enough food and other things to support themselves… because the means to do so were free and plentiful.

              Human beings lived and existed on their own terms for their own purposes… not someone else’s.

              With civilisation gradually this birthright has become private property. It means that the vast majority of people know of nothing other than to ‘work’ in an economic system …. they have traded in a ‘right to live’ on their own terms… for an ‘obligation to work’ on someone else’s.

              This is is where the notion that you ‘have to be useful’ to society is rooted. Yet ultimately you have to ask… who does this notion really serve? Is it the whole of society, or the tiny minority who gain the most benefit from our collective efforts?

              • tsmithfield

                “Has it ever occurred to you that all people are intrinsically of value?”

                Yes. But what is it about people that is of intrinsic value?

                “This is is where the notion that you ‘have to be useful’ to society is rooted. Yet ultimately you have to ask… who does this notion really serve? Is it the whole of society, or the tiny minority who gain the most benefit from our collective efforts?”

                If you look at the standards we live in now, I think you would agree they are somewhat different to what our “hunter gatherer” ancestors had. I guess you could argue whether they are better than what our ancestors had. However, I suspect objective measures such as life span etc would suggest “better”. Assuming that things are better today, then surely our collective efforts have benefited us, haven’t they?

                Anyway, interesting discussion, thanks. I’m off to bed now.

                • RedLogix

                  Assuming that things are better today, then surely our collective efforts have benefited us, haven’t they?

                  The main reason why life expectancy is longer in the modern world is simply because medical science keeps many of us alive in the face of accidents and acute illnesses that were fatal… even until just 100 years ago.

                  Yet in terms of chronic illnesses and degenerative diseases we are arguably worse off.

                  And then there is the point that most of us are working 40 hours plus a week to sustain this state of ‘better’. Better for who? A quick look about suggests that it isn’t the average bloke and blokette I meet.

                  But yes… an interest discussion. Thanks.

                • ak

                  Nigh nigh Smitty, and thanks to all for a most interesting discussion, especially Dave Brown and as always your good self RL.

                  I believe you’re nearly there, Smitto with that this on occasions, could be due to perception rather than reality, and just a teensy weensy bit of experience with the welfare system and how “easy” it is to “loaf” will bring you fully to the light. And indeed, it certainly is the effect we should be concerned about because it is that very effect that produces the immiseration of the victim of which Dave and Uturn so accurately predict the logical conclusion. The politics of envy in fact: in this case the envy of a non-existent horde luxuriating on welfare.

                  And felix – there’s a pointer to what constitutes a “useful product” in the minds of the envious: solo mothers who keep having more kids on a benefit etc Not human beings apparently.

                  Righto I’m off too, move over smitt

    • rosy 13.3

      Producing what, exactly?
      Societal value? – Like these producers…

      From the New Economics Foundation

      Elite City bankers (earning £1 million-plus bonuses) destroy £7 of value for every £1 they create.
      Hospital cleaners create over £10 in value for every £1 they receive in pay.
      Advertising executives destroy £11 of value for every £1 created.
      Child care workers generate between £7 and £9.50 for every £1 they are paid.
      Tax accountants destroy £47 for every £1 they create.
      Waste recycling workers generate £12 for every £1 spent on their wages.

      Pay levels often don’t reflect the true value that is being created. As a society, we need a pay structure which rewards those jobs that create most societal benefit, rather than those that generate profits at the expense of society and the environment.

      I strongly recommend taking a look at the NEF site for thoughts about revaluing the economy toward well-being.

  14. prism 14

    I have been reading Gareth Morgan and Susan Guthrie’s work on reorganising our economy and “The Big Kahuna” would give a guaranteed minimum income of, say, $10,000 whether you were working or not. I haven’t studied it in depth so at present can’t see how I as an old age pensioner would cope, without having to go out and sweep the streets etc. (I already do a considerable amount of volunteer work.)

    The Standard has some good information on it with a link at http://thestandard.org.nz/gareth-morgans-big-kahuna/.

    • RedLogix 14.1

      I haven’t studied it in depth so at present can’t see how I as an old age pensioner would cope,

      First of all the whole UBI concept rather makes the whole distinction between working and ‘not working’ rather mute. People would have more flexibility over their whole lifetimes about how and when they chose to be in paid employment, self-employed or whatever. The whole notion of a fixed ‘retirement age’ would vanish allowing people to choose according to their health and desires to keep working, slow down, volunteer or simply rest up. A whole lot more civilised than the ‘one size fits all’ approach at present.

      One might hope that after a lifetime of work however people might have enough assets (eg a mortgage free home) and/or retirement savings (eg kiwisaver) to fill in the gap between the UBI and a comfortable income.

      Or you might contemplate extending the collective housing/living concept that so many retirement villages are already moving towards; potentially offering a decent standard of living with a better economy of scale than an individual can ever match.

      Or you might extend the Gold Card concept to include fixing or reducing a wider range of essential costs, like electricity, rates and the like.

      But otherwise good on you for reading it… I’m a huge supporter of the Big Kahuna. Nothing’s perfect but I’d really believe it’s a rational step forward from the badly flawed and distorted system we have at present.

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    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    10 hours ago
  • Chris Trotter: Nostalgic for a joyous Left
    I WAS A CAPTAIN COOK MAN, Grant Robertson was a Robbie Burns man. If you know anything about the great student pubs of Dunedin in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, those allegiances should tell you a lot. While I was at varsity, the “Cook” had a reputation for entertaining more ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    11 hours ago
  • Spray, spray, spray. There we go. Problem solved.
    Good old WD40. Is there nothing it can't do?Door squeaking? No problem, WD-40.Chewing gum stuck to the carpet? No worries, WD-40. Crayon marks? Spanner rusted up? Zipper won't undo? WD-40. WD-40. WD-40. It can even waterproof your shoes, I hear.(More Than A Feilding makes no warranty as to the efficacy of WD40 ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    13 hours ago
  • Taxpayers might be piste off, as govt lending to ski field is lifted to $50m – but more corporate ...
    Buzz from the Beehive The distributions of two dollops of corporate welfare have been proudly announced in government press statements today, but neither mentions or relates to the further taxpayer funding for ski fields on the skids. The government’s official website tells of $7 million being provided to boost aerospace ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    14 hours ago
  • The police know they suck at the OIA
    In recent years I've done a long series of posts poking into police OIA data and how it hides how badly the police suck at carrying out their obligations under the Act. And in a response to a recent request, it seems the police have been doing the same. A ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    14 hours ago
  • Gordon Campbell on National’s disdain for the Press debate
    Christopher Luxon evidently thinks this election is SO in the bag that he can afford to spurn the still-undecideds, the entire South Island, and the old Christchurch money that still reads the Press and shops at Ballantynes. We should all shed a tear for the National Party candidates across the ...
    16 hours ago
  • ELIZABETH RATA: Two Treaties of Waitangi – the Articles Treaty and the Principles Treaty
    Elizabeth Rate writes – There are two versions of the Treaty of Waitangi.  The first is the 1840 Treaty – the ‘Articles Treaty’. The second is what I call the ‘Principles Treaty’. It dates from 1986 when the principles were first included in legislation. Astonishingly, the parliamentary ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    19 hours ago
  • Tuesday’s Chorus: When it's ok to borrow to invest
    Mayor Wayne Brown, a Northland land-banker himself, appears relaxed about borrowing to invest in land but not in, for example, transport infrastructure and services. File photo: Lynn Grieveson/Getty ImagesTL;DR: You couldn’t make this stuff up. A mayor determined to cut council debt by selling shares in a monopoly business because ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    19 hours ago
  • How well do our Rapid Transit Stations perform
    As we invest in our public transport network, it’s critical that we not only invest in transformative projects like the City Rail Link, but that we also get as much use as we can out of the network we already have – which will also maximise the outcomes of those ...
    22 hours ago
  • Bryce Edwards: Ten reasons Labour’s support has halved
    The Labour Government was elected with 50 per cent of the vote three years ago, but current opinion polls show their vote could halve in this year’s election, which would be one of the biggest plunges in political history. Most polls have Labour on about 26 per cent. And the ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    22 hours ago
  • Elizabeth Rata: Two Treaties of Waitangi: The Articles Treaty and the Principles Treaty
    Commentary There are two versions of the Treaty of Waitangi.  The first is the 1840 Treaty – the ‘Articles Treaty’. The second is what I call the ‘Principles Treaty’. It dates from 1986 when the principles were first included in legislation. Astonishingly the parliamentary representatives who inserted the word ‘principles’ ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    22 hours ago
  • Climate Emergency!
    It’s hard not to become a bit blasé towards climate change headlines. Flooding kills hundreds - blah. Catastrophic droughts - blah blah. One-in-a-hundred year events happening every year - blah blah blah.The earth had its highest temperature on record - again. Think we’ve read that one.So many articles telling us ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    23 hours ago
  • The Kākā Project: The economics of sufficiency
    The Kākā’s climate correspondent and had a chat with environmental historian and author Catherine Knight about why ‘feel good' actions like recycling and owning an electric car are unlikely to be enough to create a transition to zero emissions, let alone a just one. Knight says comments like ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    24 hours ago
  • Chippy misses a chance
    National leader Christopher Luxon has pulled out of any rescheduling of tonight’s Press debate, which has had to be cancelled because Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has Covid. The cancellation has given National an excuse to avoid a debate, which was always going to be a risk for Luxon. But ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    1 day ago
  • The Angry Majority.
    The People's Champion vs The People's Prosecutor: It is the news media’s job to elicit information from politicians – not to prosecute them. Peters’ promise to sort out TVNZ should be believed. If he finds himself in a position to carry out his threat, then it will only be because ...
    2 days ago
  • Verrall is chuffed by govt’s latest push into pay equity while Woods enthuses about an $11m spend ...
    Buzz from the Beehive The headline on a ministerial press statement curiously expresses the government’s position when it declares:   Government shows further commitment to pay equity for healthcare workers. Is it not enough to declare just one commitment? Or is the government’s commitment to pay equity being declared sector by ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    2 days ago
  • A very worthy coalition partner for Seymour and Luxon
    There have been 53 New Zealand Parliaments so far. The 39th of them was elected in 1978. It was a parliament of 92 MPs, most of them men. The New Zealand Music Awards that year named John Rowles Male Vocalist of the Year and — after a short twelve months ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 days ago
  • Labour still protecting the status quo
    Aotearoa has a cost of living crisis. And one of the major drivers of this crisis is the supermarket duopoly, who gouge every dollar they can out of us. Last year, the Commerce Commission found that the duopoly was in fact anti-competititve, giving the government social licence to fix the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on National’s myths about the desolated state of the economy
    Familiarity breeds consent. If you repeat the line “six years of economic mis-management” about 10,000 times, it sounds like the received wisdom, whatever the evidence to the contrary. Yes, the global pandemic and the global surge in inflation that came in its wake occurred here as well – but if ...
    2 days ago
  • MICHAEL BASSETT: Hapless Hipkins and his racism
    Michael Bassett writes – Without so much as batting an eyelid, Chris Hipkins told an audience on Saturday that there had been “more racism” in this election campaign than ever before. And he blamed it on the opposition parties, National, Act and New Zealand First. In those ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    2 days ago
  • BRIAN EASTON: The ‘recession’ has been called off, but some households are still struggling
    While the economy is not doing too badly in output terms, external circumstances are not favourable, and there is probably a sizeable group of households struggling because of rising interest rates. Brian Easton writes – Last week’s announcement of a 0.9 percent increase in volume GDP for ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    2 days ago
  • Monday’s Chorus: Richie Poulton's lament
    “You can't really undo what happens during childhood”, said the director of the Dunedin longitudinal study. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Richie Poulton, the director of the world-leading Dunedin longitudinal study showing how devastating poverty in early life is, died yesterday. With his final words, he lamented the lack ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    2 days ago
  • North-western downgrades
    This is a guest post from reader Peter N As many of us know, Auckland Transport and Waka Kotahi are well into progressing works on the northwestern interim “busway” with services to kick off in just over a month from now on Sunday 12th November 2023. Some of the ...
    Greater AucklandBy Guest Post
    2 days ago
  • Has Webworm Found New Zealand’s Weirdest School?
    Hi,Before we talk about weird schools people choose to send their kids to, a few things on my mind. I adored the Ask Me Anything we did last week. Thanks for taking part. I love answering your weird and nosy questions, even questions about beans.I am excited and scared as Mister ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    2 days ago
  • Another mother of a budget
    A National government would make spending cuts on a scale not seen since the 1990 – 96 Bolger government.That much was confirmed with the release of their Fiscal Plan on Friday.Government spending is currently high as a percentage of GDP — as high as it was during the Muldoon ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    2 days ago
  • A crucial week starts as early voting opens in the NZ Elections … it’s been a ride so far. Are y...
    Chris Hipkins down with Covid, at least for 5 days isolation, National continue to obfuscate, ACT continues to double-down on the poor and Winston… well, he’s being Winston really. Voters beware: this week could be even more infuriating than the last. No Party is what they used to be ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    2 days ago
  • 2023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #39
    A chronological listing of news and opinion articles posted on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Sep 24, 2023 thru Sat, Sep 30, 2023. Story of the Week We’re not doomed yet’: climate scientist Michael Mann on our last chance to save human civilisation The renowned US ...
    3 days ago
  • Clusterf**ck of Chaos.
    On the 11th of April 1945 advancing US forces liberated the Nazi concentration camp of Buchenwald near Weimar in Germany. In the coming days, under the order of General Patton, a thousand nearby residents were forced to march to the camp to see the atrocities that had been committed in ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • The party of business deals with the future by pretending it isn’t coming
    Years and years ago, when Helen Clark was Prime Minister and John Key was gunning for her job, I had a conversation with a mate, a trader who knew John Key well enough to paint a helpful picture.It was many drinks ago so it’s not a complete one. But there’s ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • 2023 More Reading: September (+ Old Phuul update)
    Completed reads for September: The Lost Continent, by C.J. Cutcliffe Hyne Flatland, by Edwin Abbott All Quiet on the Western Front, by Erich Maria Remarque The Country of the Blind, by H.G. Wells The Day of the Triffids, by John Wyndham A Tale of Two Cities, by Charles ...
    4 days ago
  • Losing The Left.
    Descending Into The Dark: The ideological cadres currently controlling both Labour and the Greens are forcing “justice”, “participation” and “democracy” to make way for what is “appropriate” and “responsible”. But, where does that leave the people who, for most of their adult lives, have voted for left-wing parties, precisely to ...
    4 days ago
  • The New “Emperor’s New Clothes”.
    “‘BUT HE HASN’T GOT ANYTHING ON,’ a little boy said ….. ‘But he hasn’t got anything on!’ the whole town cried out at last.”On this optimistic note, Hans Christian Andersen brings his cautionary tale of “The Emperor’s New Clothes” to an end.Andersen’s children’s story was written nearly two centuries ago, ...
    4 days ago
  • BRYCE EDWARDS: The vested interests shaping National Party policies
      Bryce Edwards writes – As the National Party gets closer to government, lobbyists and business interests will be lining up for influence and to get policies adopted. It’s therefore in the public interest to have much more scrutiny and transparency about potential conflicts of interests that ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • LINDSAY MITCHELL: A conundrum for those pushing racist dogma
    Lindsay Mitchell writes – The heavily promoted narrative, which has ramped up over the last six years, is that Maori somehow have special vulnerabilities which arise from outside forces they cannot control; that contemporary society fails to meet their needs. They are not receptive to messages and ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • CHRIS TROTTER:  The greater of two evils
    Not Labour: If you’re out to punish the government you once loved, then the last thing you need is to be shown evidence that the opposition parties are much, much worse.   Chris Trotter writes – THE GREATEST VIRTUE of being the Opposition is not being the Government. Only very ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to Sept 30
    Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:Labour presented a climate manifesto that aimed to claim the high ground on climate action vs National, ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Litanies, articles of faith, and being a beneficiary
    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past two weeks.Friday 29Play it, ElvisElection Hell special!! This week’s quiz is a bumper edition featuring a few of the more popular questions from last weekend’s show, as well as a few we didn’t ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago
  • Litanies, articles of faith, and being a beneficiary
    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past two weeks.Friday 29Play it, ElvisElection Hell special!! This week’s quiz is a bumper edition featuring a few of the more popular questions from last weekend’s show, as well as a few we didn’t ...
    More than a fieldingBy David Slack
    4 days ago
  • The ‘Recession’ Has Been Called Off, But Some Households Are Still Struggling
    While the economy is not doing too badly in output terms, external circumstances are not favourable, and there is probably a sizeable group of households struggling because of rising interest rates.Last week’s announcement of a 0.9 percent increase in volume GDP for the June quarter had the commentariat backing down ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong direction
    This week the International Energy Association released its Net Zero Roadmap, intended to guide us towards a liveable climate. The report demanded huge increases in renewable generation, no new gas or oil, and massive cuts to methane emissions. It was positive about our current path, but recommended that countries with ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • “Racism” becomes a buzz word on the campaign trail – but our media watchdogs stay muzzled when...
    Buzz from the Beehive  Oh, dear.  We have nothing to report from the Beehive. At least, we have nothing to report from the government’s official website. But the drones have not gone silent.  They are out on the election campaign trail, busy buzzing about this and that in the hope ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • Play it, Elvis
    Election Hell special!! This week’s quiz is a bumper edition featuring a few of the more popular questions from last weekend’s show, as well as a few we didn’t have time for. You’re welcome, etc. Let us press on, etc. 1.  What did Christopher Luxon use to his advantage in ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • Pure class warfare
    National unveiled its fiscal policy today, announcing all the usual things which business cares about and I don't. But it did finally tell us how National plans to pay for its handouts to landlords: by effectively cutting benefits: The biggest saving announced on Friday was $2b cut from the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Ask Me Anything about the week to Sept 29
    Photo by Anna Ogiienko on UnsplashIt’s that time of the week for an ‘Ask Me Anything’ session for paying subscribers about the week that was for an hour, including:duelling fiscal plans from National and Labour;Labour cutting cycling spending while accusing National of being weak on climate;Research showing the need for ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Weekly Roundup 29-September-2023
    Welcome to Friday and the last one for September. This week in Greater Auckland On Monday, Matt highlighted at the latest with the City Rail Link. On Tuesday, Matt covered the interesting items from Auckland Transport’s latest board meeting agendas. On Thursday, a guest post from Darren Davis ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    5 days ago
  • Protest at Parliament: The Reunion.
    Brian’s god spoke to him. He, for of course the Lord in Tamaki’s mind was a male god, with a mighty rod, and probably some black leathers. He, told Brian - “you must put a stop to all this love, hope, and kindness”. And it did please the Brian.He said ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • Labour cuts $50m from cycleway spending
    Labour is cutting spending on cycling infrastructure while still trying to claim the higher ground on climate. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The Labour Government released a climate manifesto this week to try to claim the high ground against National, despite having ignored the Climate Commission’s advice to toughen ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • The Greater Of Two Evils.
    Not Labour: If you’re out to punish the government you once loved, then the last thing you need is to be shown evidence that the opposition parties are much, much worse.THE GREATEST VIRTUE of being the Opposition is not being the Government. Only very rarely is an opposition party elected ...
    5 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #39 2023
    Open access notables "Net zero is only a distraction— we just have to end fossil fuel emissions." The latter is true but the former isn't, or  not in the real world as it's likely to be in the immediate future. And "just" just doesn't enter into it; we don't have ...
    5 days ago
  • Chris Trotter: Losing the Left
    IN THE CURRENT MIX of electoral alternatives, there is no longer a credible left-wing party. Not when “a credible left-wing party” is defined as: a class-oriented, mass-based, democratically-structured political organisation; dedicated to promoting ideas sharply critical of laissez-faire capitalism; and committed to advancing democratic, egalitarian and emancipatory ideals across the ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    5 days ago
  • Road rage at Kia Kaha Primary School
    It is not the school holidays yet at Kia Kaha Primary School!It can be any time when you are telling a story.Telling stories about things that happened in the past is how we learn from our mistakes.If we want to.Anyway, it is not the school holidays yet at Kia Kaha ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago
  • Road rage at Kia Kaha Primary School
    It is not the school holidays yet at Kia Kaha Primary School!It can be any time when you are telling a story.Telling stories about things that happened in the past is how we learn from our mistakes.If we want to.Anyway, it is not the school holidays yet at Kia Kaha ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago
  • Road rage at Kia Kaha Primary School
    It is not the school holidays yet at Kia Kaha Primary School!It can be any time when you are telling a story.Telling stories about things that happened in the past is how we learn from our mistakes.If we want to.Anyway, it is not the school holidays yet at Kia Kaha ...
    More than a fieldingBy David Slack
    6 days ago
  • Hipkins fires up in leaders’ debate, but has the curtain already fallen on the Labour-led coalitio...
    Labour’s  Chris Hipkins came out firing, in the  leaders’ debate  on Newshub’s evening programme, and most of  the pundits  rated  him the winner against National’s  Christopher Luxon. But will this make any difference when New  Zealanders  start casting their ballots? The problem  for  Hipkins is  that  voters are  all too ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    6 days ago
  • Govt is energising housing projects with solar power – and fuelling the public’s concept of a di...
    Buzz from the Beehive  Not long after Point of Order published data which show the substantial number of New Zealanders (77%) who believe NZ is becoming more divided, government ministers were braying about a programme which distributes some money to “the public” and some to “Maori”. The ministers were dishing ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • MIKE GRIMSHAW: Election 2023 – a totemic & charisma failure?
    The D&W analysis Michael Grimshaw writes –  Given the apathy, disengagement, disillusionment, and all-round ennui of this year’s general election, it was considered time to bring in those noted political operatives and spin doctors D&W, the long-established consultancy firm run by Emile Durkheim and Max Weber. Known for ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • FROM BFD: Will Winston be the spectre we think?
    Kissy kissy. Cartoon credit BoomSlang. The BFD. JC writes-  Allow me to preface this contribution with the following statement: If I were asked to express a preference between a National/ACT coalition or a National/ACT/NZF coalition then it would be the former. This week Luxon declared his position, ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • California’s climate disclosure bill could have a huge impact across the U.S.
    This re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Andy Furillo was originally published by Capital & Main and is part of Covering Climate Now, a global journalism collaboration strengthening coverage of the climate story. The California Legislature took a step last week that has the potential to accelerate the fight against climate ...
    6 days ago
  • Untangling South East Queensland’s Public Transport
    This is a cross post Adventures in Transitland by Darren Davis. I recently visited Brisbane and South East Queensland and came away both impressed while also pondering some key changes to make public transport even better in the region. Here goes with my take on things. A bit of ...
    Greater AucklandBy Guest Post
    6 days ago
  • Try A Little Kindness.
    My daughter arrived home from the supermarket yesterday and she seemed a bit worried about something. It turned out she wanted to know if someone could get her bank number from a receipt.We wound the story back.She was in the store and there was a man there who was distressed, ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago
  • What makes NZFirst tick
    New Zealand’s longest-running political roadshow rolled into Opotiki yesterday, with New Zealand First leader Winston Peters knowing another poll last night showed he would make it back to Parliament and National would need him and his party if they wanted to form a government. The Newshub Reid Research poll ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    6 days ago
  • September AMA
    Hi,As September draws to a close — I feel it’s probably time to do an Ask Me Anything. You know how it goes: If you have any burning questions, fire away in the comments and I will do my best to answer. You might have questions about Webworm, or podcast ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    6 days ago
  • Bludgers lying in the scratcher making fools of us all
    The mediocrity who stands to be a Prime Minister has a litany.He uses it a bit like a Koru Lounge card. He will brandish it to say: these people are eligible. And more than that, too: These people are deserving. They have earned this policy.They have a right to this policy. What ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 days ago
  • More “partnerships” (by the look of it) and redress of over $30 million in Treaty settlement wit...
    Buzz from the Beehive Point of Order has waited until now – 3.45pm – for today’s officially posted government announcements.  There have been none. The only addition to the news on the Beehive’s website was posted later yesterday, after we had published our September 26 Buzz report. It came from ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    7 days ago
  • ALEX HOLLAND: Labour’s spending
    Alex Holland writes –  In 2017 when Labour came to power, crown spending was $76 billion per year. Now in 2023 it is $139 billion per year, which equates to a $63 billion annual increase (over $1 billion extra spend every week!) In 2017, New Zealand’s government debt ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago
  • If not now, then when?
    Labour released its fiscal plan today, promising the same old, same old: "responsibility", balanced books, and of course no new taxes: "Labour will maintain income tax settings to provide consistency and certainty in these volatile times. Now is not the time for additional taxes or to promise billions of ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • THE FACTS:  77% of Kiwis believe NZ is becoming more divided
    The Facts has posted –        KEY INSIGHTSOf New Zealander’s polled: Social unity/division 77%believe NZ is becoming more divided (42% ‘much more’ + 35% ‘a little more’) 3%believe NZ is becoming less divided (1% ‘much less’ + 2% ‘a little less’) ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the cynical brutality of the centre-right’s welfare policies
    The centre-right’s enthusiasm for forcing people off the benefit and into paid work is matched only by the enthusiasm (shared by Treasury and the Reserve Bank) for throwing people out of paid work to curb inflation, and achieve the optimal balance of workers to job seekers deemed to be desirable ...
    7 days ago
  • Wednesday’s Chorus: Arthur Grimes on why building many, many more social houses is so critical
    New research shows that tenants in social housing - such as these Wellington apartments - are just as happy as home owners and much happier than private tenants. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The election campaign took an ugly turn yesterday, and in completely the wrong direction. All three ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 days ago
  • Bennie Bashing.
    If there’s one thing the mob loves more than keeping Māori in their place, more than getting tough on the gangs, maybe even more than tax cuts. It’s a good old round of beneficiary bashing.Are those meanies in the ACT party stealing your votes because they think David Seymour is ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    7 days ago
  • The kindest cuts
    Labour kicks off the fiscal credibility battle today with the release of its fiscal plan. National is expected to follow, possibly as soon as Thursday, with its own plan, which may (or may not) address the large hole that the problems with its foreign buyers’ ban might open up. ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    1 week ago
  • Green right turn in Britain? Well, a start
    While it may be unlikely to register in New Zealand’s general election, Britain’s PM Rishi Sunak has done something which might just be important in the long run. He’s announced a far-reaching change in his Conservative government’s approach to environmental, and particularly net zero, policy. The starting point – ...
    Point of OrderBy xtrdnry
    1 week ago
  • At a glance – How do human CO2 emissions compare to natural CO2 emissions?
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    1 week ago
  • How could this happen?
    Canada is in uproar after the exposure that its parliament on September 22 provided a standing ovation to a Nazi veteran who had been invited into the chamber to participate in the parliamentary welcome to Ukrainian President Zelensky. Yaroslav Hunka, 98, a Ukrainian man who volunteered for service in ...
    1 week ago

  • Youth justice programme expands to break cycle of offending
    The successful ‘Circuit Breaker’ fast track programme designed to stop repeat youth offending was launched in two new locations today by Children’s Minister Kelvin Davis. The programme, first piloted in West and South Auckland in December last year, is aimed at children aged 10-13 who commit serious offending or continue ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    16 hours ago
  • Major milestone with 20,000 employers using Apprenticeship Boost
    The Government’s Apprenticeship Boost initiative has now supported 20,000 employers to help keep on and train up apprentices, Minister for Social Development and Employment Carmel Sepuloni announced in Christchurch today. Almost 62,000 apprentices have been supported to start and keep training for a trade since the initiative was introduced in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • Government supporting wood processing jobs and more diverse industry
    The Government is supporting non-pine tree sawmilling and backing further job creation in sawmills in Rotorua and Whangarei, Forestry Minister Peeni Henare said.   “The Forestry and Wood Processing Industry Transformation Plan identified the need to add more diversity to our productions forests, wood products and markets,” Peeni Henare said. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    19 hours ago
  • Government backing Canterbury’s future in aerospace industry
    The Government is helping Canterbury’s aerospace industry take off with further infrastructure support for the Tāwhaki Aerospace Centre at Kaitorete, Infrastructure Minister Dr Megan Woods has announced. “Today I can confirm we will provide a $5.4 million grant to the Tāwhaki Joint Venture to fund a sealed runway and hangar ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    19 hours ago
  • Updated forestry regulations increase council controls and require large slash removal
    Local councils will have more power to decide where new commercial forests – including carbon forests – are located, to reduce impacts on communities and the environment, Environment Minister David Parker said today. “New national standards give councils greater control over commercial forestry, including clear rules on harvesting practices and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • New Zealand resumes peacekeeping force leadership
    New Zealand will again contribute to the leadership of the Multinational Force and Observers (MFO) in the Sinai Peninsula, Egypt, with a senior New Zealand Defence Force officer returning as Interim Force Commander. Defence Minister Andrew Little and Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta have announced the deployment of New Zealand ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New national direction provides clarity for development and the environment
    The Government has taken an important step in implementing the new resource management system, by issuing a draft National Planning Framework (NPF) document under the new legislation, Environment Minister David Parker said today. “The NPF consolidates existing national direction, bringing together around 20 existing instruments including policy statements, standards, and ...
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    2 days ago
  • Government shows further commitment to pay equity for healthcare workers
    The Government welcomes the proposed pay equity settlement that will see significant pay increases for around 18,000 Te Whatu Ora Allied, Scientific, and Technical employees, if accepted said Health Minister Ayesha Verrall. The proposal reached between Te Whatu Ora, the New Zealand Public Service Association Te Pūkenga Here Tikanga Mahi ...
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    2 days ago
  • 100 new public EV chargers to be added to national network
    The public EV charging network has received a significant boost with government co-funding announced today for over 100 EV chargers – with over 200 charging ports altogether – across New Zealand, and many planned to be up and running on key holiday routes by Christmas this year. Minister of Energy ...
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    3 days ago
  • Safeguarding Tuvalu language and identity
    Tuvalu is in the spotlight this week as communities across New Zealand celebrate Vaiaso o te Gagana Tuvalu – Tuvalu Language Week. “The Government has a proven record of supporting Pacific communities and ensuring more of our languages are spoken, heard and celebrated,” Pacific Peoples Minister Barbara Edmonds said. “Many ...
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    3 days ago
  • New community-level energy projects to support more than 800 Māori households
    Seven more innovative community-scale energy projects will receive government funding through the Māori and Public Housing Renewable Energy Fund to bring more affordable, locally generated clean energy to more than 800 Māori households, Energy and Resources Minister Dr Megan Woods says. “We’ve already funded 42 small-scale clean energy projects that ...
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    6 days ago
  • Huge boost to Te Tai Tokerau flood resilience
    The Government has approved new funding that will boost resilience and greatly reduce the risk of major flood damage across Te Tai Tokerau. Significant weather events this year caused severe flooding and damage across the region. The $8.9m will be used to provide some of the smaller communities and maraes ...
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    6 days ago
  • Napier’s largest public housing development comes with solar
    The largest public housing development in Napier for many years has been recently completed and has the added benefit of innovative solar technology, thanks to Government programmes, says Housing Minister Dr Megan Woods. The 24 warm, dry homes are in Seddon Crescent, Marewa and Megan Woods says the whanau living ...
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    7 days ago
  • Te Whānau a Apanui and the Crown initial Deed of Settlement I Kua waitohua e Te Whānau a Apanui me...
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    1 week ago
  • Plan for 3,000 more public homes by 2025 – regions set to benefit
    Regions around the country will get significant boosts of public housing in the next two years, as outlined in the latest public housing plan update, released by the Housing Minister, Dr Megan Woods. “We’re delivering the most public homes each year since the Nash government of the 1950s with one ...
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    1 week ago
  • Immigration settings updates
    Judicial warrant process for out-of-hours compliance visits 2023/24 Recognised Seasonal Employer cap increased by 500 Additional roles for Construction and Infrastructure Sector Agreement More roles added to Green List Three-month extension for onshore Recovery Visa holders The Government has confirmed a number of updates to immigration settings as part of ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Poroporoaki: Tā Patrick (Patu) Wahanga Hohepa
    Tangi ngunguru ana ngā tai ki te wahapū o Hokianga Whakapau Karakia. Tārehu ana ngā pae maunga ki Te Puna o te Ao Marama. Korihi tangi ana ngā manu, kua hinga he kauri nui ki te Wao Nui o Tāne. He Toa. He Pou. He Ahorangi. E papaki tū ana ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Renewable energy fund to support community resilience
    40 solar energy systems on community buildings in regions affected by Cyclone Gabrielle and other severe weather events Virtual capability-building hub to support community organisations get projects off the ground Boost for community-level renewable energy projects across the country At least 40 community buildings used to support the emergency response ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • COVID-19 funding returned to Government
    The lifting of COVID-19 isolation and mask mandates in August has resulted in a return of almost $50m in savings and recovered contingencies, Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall announced today. Following the revocation of mandates and isolation, specialised COVID-19 telehealth and alternative isolation accommodation are among the operational elements ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Appointment of District Court Judge
    Susie Houghton of Auckland has been appointed as a new District Court Judge, to serve on the Family Court, Attorney-General David Parker said today.  Judge Houghton has acted as a lawyer for child for more than 20 years. She has acted on matters relating to the Hague Convention, an international ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Government invests further in Central Hawke’s Bay resilience
    The Government has today confirmed $2.5 million to fund a replace and upgrade a stopbank to protect the Waipawa Drinking Water Treatment Plant. “As a result of Cyclone Gabrielle, the original stopbank protecting the Waipawa Drinking Water Treatment Plant was destroyed. The plant was operational within 6 weeks of the ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Govt boost for Hawke’s Bay cyclone waste clean-up
    Another $2.1 million to boost capacity to deal with waste left in Cyclone Gabrielle’s wake. Funds for Hastings District Council, Phoenix Contracting and Hog Fuel NZ to increase local waste-processing infrastructure. The Government is beefing up Hawke’s Bay’s Cyclone Gabrielle clean-up capacity with more support dealing with the massive amount ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Taupō Supercars revs up with Government support
    The future of Supercars events in New Zealand has been secured with new Government support. The Government is getting engines started through the Major Events Fund, a special fund to support high profile events in New Zealand that provide long-term economic, social and cultural benefits. “The Repco Supercars Championship is ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • There is no recession in NZ, economy grows nearly 1 percent in June quarter
    The economy has turned a corner with confirmation today New Zealand never was in recession and stronger than expected growth in the June quarter, Finance Minister Grant Robertson said. “The New Zealand economy is doing better than expected,” Grant Robertson said. “It’s continuing to grow, with the latest figures showing ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Highest legal protection for New Zealand’s largest freshwater springs
    The Government has accepted the Environment Court’s recommendation to give special legal protection to New Zealand’s largest freshwater springs, Te Waikoropupū Springs (also known as Pupū Springs), Environment Minister David Parker announced today.   “Te Waikoropupū Springs, near Takaka in Golden Bay, have the second clearest water in New Zealand after ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • More support for victims of migrant exploitation
    Temporary package of funding for accommodation and essential living support for victims of migrant exploitation Exploited migrant workers able to apply for a further Migrant Exploitation Protection Visa (MEPV), giving people more time to find a job Free job search assistance to get people back into work Use of 90-day ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Strong export boost as NZ economy turns corner
    An export boost is supporting New Zealand’s economy to grow, adding to signs that the economy has turned a corner and is on a stronger footing as we rebuild from Cyclone Gabrielle and lock in the benefits of multiple new trade deals, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. “The economy is ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Funding approved for flood resilience work in Te Karaka
    The Government has approved $15 million to raise about 200 homes at risk of future flooding. More than half of this is expected to be spent in the Tairāwhiti settlement of Te Karaka, lifting about 100 homes there. “Te Karaka was badly hit during Cyclone Gabrielle when the Waipāoa River ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Further business support for cyclone-affected regions
    The Government is helping businesses recover from Cyclone Gabrielle and attract more people back into their regions. “Cyclone Gabrielle has caused considerable damage across North Island regions with impacts continuing to be felt by businesses and communities,” Economic Development Minister Barbara Edmonds said. “Building on our earlier business support, this ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • New maintenance facility at Burnham Military Camp underway
    Defence Minister Andrew Little has turned the first sod to start construction of a new Maintenance Support Facility (MSF) at Burnham Military Camp today. “This new state-of-art facility replaces Second World War-era buildings and will enable our Defence Force to better maintain and repair equipment,” Andrew Little said. “This Government ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Foreign Minister to attend United Nations General Assembly
    Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta will represent New Zealand at the 78th Session of the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) in New York this week, before visiting Washington DC for further Pacific focussed meetings. Nanaia Mahuta will be in New York from Wednesday 20 September, and will participate in UNGA leaders ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Midwives’ pay equity offer reached
    Around 1,700 Te Whatu Ora employed midwives and maternity care assistants will soon vote on a proposed pay equity settlement agreed by Te Whatu Ora, the Midwifery Employee Representation and Advisory Service (MERAS) and New Zealand Nurses Association (NZNO), Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall announced today. “Addressing historical pay ...
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    3 weeks ago
  • New Zealand provides support to Morocco
    Aotearoa New Zealand will provide humanitarian support to those affected by last week’s earthquake in Morocco, Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta announced today. “We are making a contribution of $1 million to the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC) to help meet humanitarian needs,” Nanaia Mahuta said. ...
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    3 weeks ago
  • Government invests in West Coast’s roading resilience
    The Government is investing over $22 million across 18 projects to improve the resilience of roads in the West Coast that have been affected by recent extreme weather, Prime Minister Chris Hipkins confirmed today.  A dedicated Transport Resilience Fund has been established for early preventative works to protect the state ...
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    3 weeks ago

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