Human Nature and Propaganda

Written By: - Date published: 12:30 pm, December 17th, 2010 - 63 comments
Categories: capitalism, class war, equality - Tags: , , ,

In 1989 the Berlin Wall collapsed. Instead of  this ushering in a period of vigorous growth for the left, the energies of the visible left in Western Europe and elsewhere dissipated.  Not for the left to celebrate with people who had newly freed themselves from the chains of state oppression. Not for the left to help forge a leftist reality that rejected both market and state forms of authoritarianism.  No. See, it transpired that many on the left were apologists for the tyrannies of Eastern Europe. And so their memberships and organisational efficacy collapsed in concert with the collapsing of the East’s political dictatorships and command economies.

In line with the collapse of the extra-parliamentary left,  the representative left  in Social Democracies reacted to the apparent crisis of ideology by jettisoing all leftist pretensions.  And so, just as a financial crisis had allowed the Labour Party in New Zealand to be hi-jacked and used to inflict Rogernomics, the more widespread crisis of leftist  ideologies in the late 80’s was the trigger for the adoption and development of so-called ‘third way’ policies and a general unleashing of neo-liberal reforms.

With the wholesale abandoning of the left by the left, and subsequent aggressive attempts to discredit all aspects of leftist thought, avenues for genuine leftist aspirations were choked. Of course, the sentiments that had led to the development of much leftist thought in the first place didn’t just go away. But there was no articulation for those sentiments.

And 20 odd years on, we are being told that  “British people are more Thatcherite than when Margaret Thatcher was in power.  Thus claims a Guardian headline in reaction to the ‘British Social Attitudes Survey’ that’s published by the National Centre for Social Research.  (The raw data can be downloaded from here.)

A casual observer might conclude that this represents a natural ( if unfortunate) evolution in attitudes, and that British people are all ‘rationally optimising economic units’ now, who don’t believe in society and who, further more, embrace ‘individualism’. And insofar as it is reasonable to assume that British attitudes aren’t too far removed from NZ attitudes, that same observer might conclude that the NZ public has grown up and progressed to the point that we too embrace the wisdoms of neo-liberalism.

But something very obvious is not mentioned in the news pieces written off the back of the survey.   There is no consideration given to the impact of  20 odd years of incessant and unchallenged propaganda claiming that There Is No Alternative to neo-liberalism. It has taken an enormous propaganda effort to impact on attitudes. But that impact is by no means total. And certainly not deep rooted. Even after 20 odd years, there remain revealing contradictions in the attitudes people hold.

According to the survey, only 27%  (58% in 1991) of people think that benefit levels are too low. And this  is in spite of benefit cuts over recent years. And only 36% (51% in 1989) of people think the government should implement measures to distribute wealth more evenly.

But sitting alongside these figures there are other, contradictory ones. These contradictory figures pertain to matters that any neo-liberal propaganda model has to be more or less silent on.  The model can’t really spin an acceptable line to rationalise a minority of people getting ever higher incomes in relation to the majority. And the model can’t spin an acceptable line on the working poor.

So, in these areas of silence – these gaps in the propaganda – we find that 78% of people think that poor/rich income gaps are too wide and that 54% of people support increasing the minimum wage.  That’s worth spelling out. 54% of people support a government initiative to redistribute wealth through increasing the minimum wage when only 36% of people think that a government should redistribute wealth!

Here’s how the Guardian presented it.

In 1991, well over half (58%) thought the government should spend more money on benefits: this has halved to only a quarter (27%) by 2009
• The public also has concerns about redistributing income from the better off to the less well off; only one third (36%) think the state should do this, down from a half (51%) in 1989
• But 78% think the gap between those with high and a low income is too large, up from 73% in 2004. More than half (54%) now support an increase in the minimum wage.

This apparent disconnect in our attitudes is where  the opportunities for the left reside. If the left  articulates alternative visions stemming from these fundamental and persistent attitudes, then the left will find  fertile ground to grow support for genuine left programmes. The neo-liberal propaganda model has no re-joiner to a political articulation of our natural predispositions. None.

To clarify what I’m saying here,  consider the impact of targeted propaganda in relation to attitudes towards war. Most people are against war. But opinions and attitudes can be shaped to support specific wars or deem certain war efforts acceptable. It’s a wood and trees scenario. If you are maintaining an anti-war stance in the face of war propaganda, you place the specific propaganda effort in the wider moral or historical context of war.

But on neo-liberalism, it seems that much of the the left has mistaken the narrowly defined and manufactured attitudes on specific isues (such as those highlighted in the survey) for the whole picture. And as such, much of the left renders itself  impotent. Arguably, the current parliamentary left is  ‘too gone on it’ to see the wood for the trees. And as a result it competes to be tougher on criminals in lieu of debating and tackling the underlying causes of crime. Or it favours employers over genuinely struggling  beneficiaries who propaganda demonises (e.g. working for families abandoned the children of the unemployed and essentially created an employer subsidy and a downward pressure on wage levels).  And ultimately, the parliamentary left unwittingly aids and abets the parliamentary ‘right’  in marginalising and silencing the natural support base of the left and any natural opposition to neo-liberalism.

I’m being kind here. I’m assuming for the sake of argument that the parliamentary left has forgone it’s enchantment with neo-liberalism.

If that is so, then the time has passed for those on the parliamentary left to get their heads around the limited and misleading reality of focus groups and surveys. They merely reflect back the shallow efficacy of propaganda on specific issues.

But we operate from a different space than the one created by survey responses. Our every day actions and behaviours are determined by far deeper and more persistent undercurrents of decency and morality. And those undercurrents not only often contradict, but will outlive any fashionable attitudes that are shaped by any propaganda effort.  It’s time to see the big picture and inject a little context into politics.  The basic sentiments and moral imperatives that we hold in common, and that have previously provided the building blocks for leftist thoughts and ideologies, haven’t gone away. Thankfully, the previous flawed articulations of our shared moral imperatives and sympathies that the left pushed and that stupidly and covertly endorsed state oppression have been silenced.   But 20 odd years is a long enough pause to reflect on previous shortcomings.  Time to once more articulate visions that resonate with commonly held core sentiments.  Such undertakings would cripple the ongoing efforts of  neo-liberal propaganda and reverse its gains of the past few decades.

For the parliamentary left, at the very least, it’s time to jump away from the amoral, astro-turf territories that have been laid down by the neo-liberals. Nobody lives there.

63 comments on “Human Nature and Propaganda ”

  1. mcflock 1

    A thought I had a few days ago meshes nicely with this. I had just finished listening to a national MP say that child poverty is contributed to by “welfare dependency”.

    The phrase “welfare dependency” has bothered me for years, and now I’ve managed to articulate why: it is a made-up condition with no medical basis, imagined solely for the purpose of denigrating an subjugating a large sector of the population. An equivalent condition is the 19th century’s “female hysteria” – an imagined concept to paint women as irrational and inadequate.

    The dream of “welfare dependency” is pure propoganda.

    • Bill 1.1

      Welfare = addiction = disease? And as we know, the root of disease resides in the individual.

      • mcflock 1.1.1

        … and “addiction” isn’t really a disease, it’s a weakness in the moral fibre of the individual. So only bad people claim a benefit.

        But I also love the way tories appropriate liberal ideals and then warp them: for example one guy claimed that compulsory student union membership is “discrimination” against rwnjs who don’t want to be in unions. Lefties were probably supposed to say “discrimination? Of course, you are right! I will now join ACT”. And, of course, helping people be “cured” of “welfare dependency” sounds much better than abandoning people to live (or die) in abject poverty. It almost sounds like they’re making up for stuffing hundreds of people on ACC out of healthcare.

    • Vicky32 1.2

      Exactly, and sadly, very effective propaganda! Many people seem to take ‘welfare dependency’ for granted as a real thing..
      Deb

    • Bill 1.3

      Came across this relevant and interesting Why the ‘Lazy Jobless’ Myth Persists article by David Sirota…

      If, as the myth suggests, the jobless are really out of work because they “are generally people with poor work habits and poor personalities,” then it stands to reason that the employed can avoid catastrophe by simply choosing better behavior.

  2. Awesome post Bill – I agree that the ‘left’ has to articulate its vision and that vision is based on core values that don’t go away. It is time for the ‘left’ to create a position in the publics mind that captures their hopes and dreams and exposes the deliberate inequality the system runs on. The inequality that many pretend we don’t see every day.

    • Bill 2.1

      Couldn’t fit it in the post, but since you present me with the opportunity….any worthwhile leftist vision would necessarily have to disavow previous articulated visions of the left that excused and practiced authoritarian means in attempts to achieve certain ends.

      And I’d suggest that as a part of any strategy aimed to avoid any subtle introduction of ‘state capture’ type policies or prescriptions, that any new articulation for the ‘Euro’ left would have to be a part and parcel of a larger package that included indigenous politics.

      And that to avoid subtle influences of patriarchy making unfortunate inroads, that the new articulation for the left that was Euro leftism and indigenous politics would itself need to be a part and parcel of a larger package that included feminist politics.

      I don’t mean to word all that in a way that might convey a hierarchy of importance.

      My point would be one of complementarity; where the politics of each different discourse informs and strengthens the others and results in a cohesive whole that has no dominant constituent part. (I picked indigenous, feminist and ‘euro’ leftist politics to illustrate the example. There are other politics too that would constitute the mix.)

      • A 2.1.1

        ….any worthwhile leftist vision would necessarily have to disavow previous articulated visions of the left that excused and practiced authoritarian means in attempts to achieve certain ends.

        But in the past you’ve offered nothing realistic as a response, only vague, utopian dreams of a completely untested and unrealistic economic and social order that reeks of bong water. That’s all right for academic discussions, but that sort of stuff won’t fly as a practical political program.

        Every functional human society of significant size has required one group to exercise political authority over the others. Even the purest democracy involves the representatives of one part of the population imposing their will on the remainder. If anything is a universal in human political organisation, it is this.

        If you want to rule out all forms of political authoritarianism, then you will not even pass go, nor collect your $200. You’re ruling out by fiat what are needed for realistic prospects for any political movement.

        • Bill 2.1.1.1

          A. You are an authoritarian. I get that. And you maintain, in spite of being provided really existing examples to the contrary, that any proposition for a society that embraces the concept of equity is ‘bong water’. So there’s no point in engaging with you on the matter, is there?

  3. just saying 3

    I agree Bill.
    I’ve often found that if you scratch the surface of many an apparent supporter of neoliberalism and ask specific questions a somewhat different picture emerges. As you say, one of those questions is “do you think the minimum wage is sufficient? Another is: Do you think the average workplace is better for the lack of unions? – often quite anti-union people agree that it is worse, not to mention more dangerous, and will be able to cite their own examples of how this is so, compared to when unions redressed the power imbalance a little.

    This dissonance is all the more remarkable for the almost complete absense of any public left wing discourse, as you say for twenty years now. Any exceptions to the rule have been deemded mad/and or bad. I think the political centre underestimates the extent of basic decency in much of the electorate, and in its ignorance unnecessarily panders to its basest instincts when it could successfully appeal to its goodwill and sense of justice.

  4. Carol 4

    Good post, which raises improtant issues, and points to a new direction. I agree that there are contradictions in neoliberalism, that maybe can point the way to a new articulation of left politics. I’m not sure how much it can be put down to <i.human nature, except that humans tend to be social beings, while morality can differ from culture to culture.

    IMO, the contradictory elements, at least in part, is due to the way neoliberalism piggy-backed on some successful left policies related to democratic rights. Some of this goes back to the values of the enlightenment, and post French & US revolution approaches to politics and society. In US capitalism, this tended to follow the liberal line of individual rights that had a long and strong tradition in the country, rather than the approach of collective rights and politics favoured more in Europe.

    The right elites could not have sold their neoliberal values and policies so widely and successfully, without framing them within the discourses of democracy and human rights. And I think this is their weak point, because those beliefs, as Bill inidcates, still have a lot of currency at the core of the social values in western countries like NZ. So, IMO, it’s necessary to on, the one hand, highlight the way neoliberalism fails to live up to those ideals of democracy, fair play and equal rights. But, at the same time there is a need to reclaim and recast those values in the more socially responsible, just, caring and collaborative terms of the left.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1

      while morality can differ from culture to culture.

      No it doesn’t. Murder id murder every where, trust is essential to the functioning of any society and all societies actually need to support their members.

      • Carol 4.1.1

        Murder id murder every where, trust is essential to the functioning of any society and all societies actually need to support their members.

        Is it? I think there are differences around when and where killing of others is considered a crime. War for instance? And there are some hazy areas in between war and murder. In earlier times in Britain it was considered more of a crime to kill one of the aristocracy. Peasants/commoners killing each other wasn’t given much attention by the ruling class. In fact, the word “murder” comes from the word used to designate it a crime to kill a Norman ruler/conqueror:

        http://www.coronersociety.org.uk/wfBriefHistory.aspx

        After the Norman Conquest, to deter the local communities from a continuing habit of killing Normans, a heavy fine was levied on any village where a dead body was discovered, on the assumption that it was presumed to be Norman, unless it could be proved to be English. The fine was known as the ‘Murdrum’, from which the word ‘murder’ is derived and, as the system developed, many of the early coroners’ inquests dealt with the ‘Presumption of Normanry’ which could only be rebutted by the local community, and a fine thus avoided, by the ‘Presentment of Englishry’.

        Some cultures and subcultures consider the appropriate response to kill in revenge for one of your group being killed. But in other cultures this is considered to be murder and a crime. France has that category of crime passionnel, which is an accepted defence against a murder charge, whereas in other countries it is regarded as a crime.

        • Vicky32 4.1.1.1

          I had always assumed that the word murder derived from the German (and by extension, Old and Middle English) word for murder! : Dictionary –

          1. noun
          1. Mord
          2. Ermordung
          3. Vergewaltigung
          2. verb
          1. ermorden
          2. morden

        • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.2

          Peasants/commoners killing each other wasn’t given much attention by the ruling class.

          Pretty sure you’ll find that it was taken seriously by the peasants though.

          • Carol 4.1.1.2.1

            Vicky, I think that the German word and the Old French & Old English words for murder are linked. There was a Anglo-French influence, where the “d” introduced into the spelling meant concealed slaying, whereas other related words had the less negative “slay” meaning.
            http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=murder

            Anyway, it indicates a ong history of differentyiations between unlawful or immoral killings, and ones that are more acceptable, depending on the culture of the time.

            Back to the original topic, I think there are some human qualities that are “natural” but as we get inducted into human communities and societies from a very early age, it\’s hard to tell exactly where nature gives way to nurture.

            I agree with DtB that, in relation to morality/ethics, trust is essential to the functioning of any society . But this has to do with social relations, rather than some “natural” tendency to all have the same ethical/moral values.

            Killing is a good example. There is a general tendency for most communities to see killing of its members as a threat, but there are different ways this plays out in various communities. A lot depends on which group or community a person feels/is most allied to. So crime syndicates in the US commit killings, regarded as crime by the US authorities. However, such killings are often considered by the syndicate to be in keeping with their morality/ethics, when they kill people in their own or other syndicates that have threatened their trust and/or security & stability. Some communities sanction euthanasia, some don\’t…. etc. Often the belief that a specific murder is a crime/immoral relates to whether the victim belongs to an in or an out group.

            Yes, peasants may be more likely to have seen the killing of another peasant in feudal England as immoral. However, it may depend on whether the victim was considered part of a specific peasant\’s trusted community or in group. This is why the law provides sanctions against unlawful killing in contemporary nation states. Some people will try to get away with killing people who they feel no allegiance to.

            The laws against murder in contemporary western society are based on the nation state as the main community of allegiance. This is a social construct that arose at around the same times as capitalism, the enlightenment & the rise of the notion of “human rights”.

            Now, back to neoliberalism: the contradiction in it is that neoliberalism drew on human rights discourse, related to benefits to the whole of society, democracy, the common good etc.. This more humanist discourse was/is used to justify measures that, in practice, benefit the wealthy elites across a range of countries, and disadvantage others. So this contradiction needs to be exposed more widely: the claim to benefit all, while really benefitting the elite and powerful.

            Of course the wealthy and powerful elites continue to pay lip service to human rights, democracy and egalitarian discourses. However, they undercut this by designating some people as being an out group. They thereby claining that their liberal ideals can’t support some people because they are characterised as harming the “greater good” in representative democracies. Thus they use their propaganda machine to label some people as the “undeserving poor”, the “dole bludgers”, “welfare dependents”, “un-American”, “communist”, “not mainstream”, the “lazy” and the “weak” etc., and to re-brand legitimate protesters (against neoliberal policies) as violent, irresponsible troublemakers and criminals

            These false labels also need to be challenged, and the rights for the whole of society need to be foregrounded again by the left. Because, underneath all the neoliberal propaganda (and smears through falsification), the human rights, democratic, egalitarian and social justice discourses are more in keeping with the values of the majority in contemporary democracies.

            So maybe I am thinking its more about Human Rights and Propaganda

            • Bill 4.1.1.2.1.1

              I remember listening to one of the wee Napoleons (Act Party) speaking back in the 90’s and was struck by how, well, sort of anarchist the rhetoric sounded. (Freedom from this freedom to that etc)

              Of course, they forgot to mention how their concepts of freedom entailed total subjugation to market diktats…how remiss of them!… and that their vision of the stripped down, subordinate state would see it retain it’s powers of coercion to better ensure that the intended freedoms remained firmly the freedom to be subject to the market.

              I believe that Lenin used the same rhetorical ploy, and well, we know how that all ended up.

              Funny then how anarchism is conflated with chaos and unaccountable violence then, innit?

  5. Tiger Mountain 5

    Agree with the WFF comment, mid income workers should join unions and organise to obtain wage rises from employers rather than the tax payer money go round.

    Dunno about the rest of your comments Bill, identity politics elevated again, and a dash of retrospective anti communism. Unlikely to get the neo libs to back off or attract voters from the tory camp. Perception and satisfaction gaps are a worry and an opportunity perhaps. Collective action, civic participation and political party membership are low following decades of reinforcement of the neo lib world view-its all about ME.

    75% of kiwis receive under 50k per annum and there are several hundred thousand self employed and contractors, so self delusion must be the kiwi psyche of choice for people to vote in such an ‘aspirational’ yet ultimately self disadvantaging manner. National was elected on A4 bullet point policies that few read. Reams could be employed to show how the Natz have dealt to the majority in NZ in just two years, but who would be interested? The mining issue grabbed people, but ultimately the parliamentary left just needs to persuade around 10% of voters in an electoral sense. I maintain roughly 35% of New Zealanders are dark sadistic tory bastards, but the rest can be reached some of the time on some issues.

    The parliamentary ‘left’ (social democratic) needs to cough up a social policy in one syllable words that can be grasped as a pack like Kiwibank, or Kiwi Saver, dumb it down and go for it, but the content would have to be well, left. $15 minimum wage, stimulus, jobs, NZCTU economic plan etc.

    • Bill 5.1

      Tiger. Anti-authoritarianism isn’t anti-communism.

      And I’m not elevating identity politics, but merely acknowledging that the left has been both racist and sexist (resulting in or because of?) the subordination of indigenous and feminist politics to Euro centric leftist ideologies, Elevation would give primacy to one or the other of them at the expense of the other two. Not something I argue for. I’m arguing for these three things being integral components of the same political phenomenon.

  6. RedLogix 6

    A remarkable post Bill and superb discussion so far. So far I’ve read with much interest.

    My interpretation of the overall theme here comes at things from a different angle. For all their obvious, deplorable and unforgiveable shortcomings… the organised religions of the world did serve one crucial purpose… at core they exposed people to the idea of values other than mere survival, dominance and the successful propagation of our genes. At core there was the idea, “for what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul?”

    If history teaches us nothing else, it is that if selfish motives wholly dominate, we humans decend to the most astounding ruthlessness and brutality towards each other. Indeed even now in parts of the world where society has seriously unravelled, we are witnessing these horrors. The basic truth is that it is ONLY as members of a functioning, stable and capable society that our behaviour as individuals rises above that of brute depravity.

    Even in a senile, degraded, ossified state, corrupted by the cancer of fundamentalism, the religions of the world were, until the last few decades, still able to credibly assert core notions such as justice, equity, dignity, trustworthiness, compassion, modesty and decency…abstract ideas that compose the fundamental nexus lying at the heart of any coherent society. But decades since the 1960’s have now seen at least two generations almost wholly divorced from any real engagement with religion, except perhaps in rather transient, superficial ways. For most, religion has become a matter of scorn and mockery, sneering references to our ‘invisible friend’ and outright hostility.

    There is no question in my mind, the deplorable record of many, if not most, churches is indefensible. I am not for a moment suggesting anything remotely like a ‘backward looking return to faith’, most certainly nothing like the conservative, authoritarian churches our grandparents knew. But I am willing to suggest that however imperfectly, those churches DID serve an essential social purpose we are now lamenting the loss of.

    And that the peoples of the world will become more self-centered, more right-wing and more greedy … more Thatcherite if you will… just as long as we allow this higher purpose to remain neglected.

    • Bill 6.1

      You seem to accept a Hobbesian viewpoint on the human condition, Red. But I’m not at all convinced that life was ‘solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short’ in the absence of ‘a common power to keep us all in awe’. I mean, let’s face it. Hobbs was peddling a political line to justify his penchant for sovereign rulers…for authoritarianism.

      I attempted to articulate a fairly comprehensive response to your comment. But it kept running away on me. So in the interests of brevity, I’m opting for an analogy instead in the hope that its adequate to convey my thoughts.

      Seems to me that imposed orders hold within them the seeds of dis-order. And that these will sprout and find expression (apparently chaotic violence etc) during the period when the imposed orders are collapsing.

      Like a compressed spring with built up potential energies, when the coercive forces applied to it fall away, that ‘falling away’ unleashes all types of forces that act in a broadly predictable, yet chaotic manner.

      And just like an uncompressed spring does not exhibit chaotic behaviours, neither would a society free from coercion.

      As for higher purposes. Why not? As long as there is no system of imposition for said higher purpose. Which kind of brings us full circle back to Hobbs, who (as far as I’m concerned) played the fear card to excuse the imposition of his version of a higher purpose.

      • RedLogix 6.1.1

        Bill,

        Thanks for that… it’s a valid and useful answer. In summary you say:

        And just like an uncompressed spring does not exhibit chaotic behaviours, neither would a society free from coercion.

        Clearly the main thought you have in mind when writing that revolves around the word ‘coercion’, a word that implies the external imposition of force or regulation of human behaviour. In that I agree with you entirely, the least amount of coercion, of any kind, that a society impliments the better. We are in agreement here.

        But neither am I comfortable with the idea that this means everyone simply gets to do whatever the hell they please, and can get away with at the time. Humans, unlike animals, have a highly developed ability to think in the abstract, which means that for instance when an animal kills in order to eat it does so for reasons we can understand and respect. While humans are capable of forming perverse notions and desires leading to mass cruelties and killings of an utterly more rapacious order. (History is replete with gruesome examples…).

        Equally humans can choose to employ that same abstract capacity, the rational soul if you will, in the service of justice, compassion and dignity. In doing so they support and nuture the capacity of the society they live in, and mutatis mutandis. If you desire any degree of civilisation there must be rules.

        Ideally the desire to abide by those rules comes from within every person, prompted by a deep and sincere conviction of what it is to be truly human. For most people in history it was not philosophy or politics that informed them of this, but the religious institutions of their time. And even in these modern times, we are no different in that need.

        • Bill 6.1.1.1

          “But neither am I comfortable with the idea that this means everyone simply gets to do whatever the hell they please, and can get away with at the time.”

          Neither am I.

          But rules can be drawn up freely by and between all members of a society, and be enforced by those same fully empowered members of that society. That’s not coercion, insofar as the police and the policed are one and the same.

          (I’m using the term society as a designation for actual human interaction btw. So, ‘New Zealand society’ doesn’t exist. Rather, these islands have thousands of societies…some transient, some permanent… that are all connected in a variety of ways (distantly, intimately, fleetingly or whatever) . And I’m saying that any given person is a member of any number of different societies at any given time depending on their interactions .)

          Anyway, there’s a fairly simple rule of thumb for determining when rules or agreements need to be reached. If what I am going to do will impact only on me, then fine I can just get on with it. And if what I am going to do impacts on others, then those others would have a legitimate input into whatever the proposed action is. And in a coherent society, familiarity with its institutional memory would negate the need to constantly seek agreement or permission for actions or behaviours.

          As for potential punishment for transgressing social rules…lets talk extremes like murder for example, well…that’s up to the members of the society affected to determine. The person might be killed…or maybe imprisoned for life…or maybe put in a collar that prevented them from reaching their own mouth or from being able to lie down; rendering them utterly reliant on the good will of others, their erstwhile victims, for water and food and to sleep and therefore to live, or maybe they’d just be ostracised. Or whatever.

          I throw that in because their is nothing that says societies cannot resort to blunt measures to ensure their integrity.

  7. SPC 7

    I take issue with the idea of WFF as an “employer subsidy” (that line is promoted by the neo-liberal right to get bi-partisan support to dismantle it) – without it, there would have been across the board tax cuts at greater cost (the National alternative in 2005) to the government budget revenues and there would have been less money to families – to the extent that there would still be children of working families in poverty (pre 2005). And certainly no money left to help children of beneficiaries …

    Even English says that the security afforded by interest free student loans, WFF and the promise of no changes to Super allows the government to propose reform elsewhere. That same fact also applies to Labour proposing reforms elsewhere – as it should.

    Such as borrowing to build state houses in an economic downturn – creating jobs (and easing pressure on housing stock levels when the private sector is not investing). It’s easy to justify – the houses can be sold to pay back the debt afterwards. It’s more sustainable than roads to holiday homes north of Auckland.

  8. Bored 8

    Fantastic Bill, great article. I liked the line about being kind to the parliamentary left and their atachment to neo lib shibboleths, damning by faint praise. They needed a bloody big kick up the jacksey, well delivered.

    About a year ago I wrote about the language of engagement, that it framed the debate and that to be effective the language of what you oppose must be replaced with another language. You commented at the time about this being valid. It is good to see your comment on limited and misleading reality of focus groups and surveys. They merely reflect back the shallow efficacy of propaganda on specific issues. followed by Time to once more articulate visions that resonate with commonly held core sentiments. Such undertakings would cripple the ongoing efforts of neo-liberal propaganda and reverse its gains of the past few decades. A clarion call, again , well said.

  9. jbanks 9

    The objective process of natural selection is pruning less valuable ideologies.

    So the truth does hurt . . . particularly so for destructive leftist ideologies trying to erode personal responsibility and dehumanize society.

    • RedLogix 9.1

      So you have no personal objection to me applying the ‘laws of natural selection’ on you then? If I’m bigger, meaner and faster than you logically you will simply get “pruned”.

      Tough if that hurts. Or is there more to life than the “laws of natural selection”?

      • jbanks 9.1.1

        THINK before you post please.

        Biological reproduction is now disconnected from survival, and ‘values & beliefs’ are the new form of information in the fight to be reproduced.

        • Pascal's bookie 9.1.1.1

          Biological reproduction is the main component of ‘natural selection’. If you meant something else, you should have said something else.

    • just saying 9.2

      Actually jbanks, the “objective” process of evolution, prunes on the basis of individual survival-to-propagate. ‘Value’ doesn’t come into it at all.

      The evolution of cultural beliefs can, quite efficiently, lead to the extinction of humanity.

      Course, whether you think that is a good thing or a bad thing is a value judgement too.

      • jbanks 9.2.1

        Again. Context. Get some. Sheesh, it’s like a 1st year Pols tutorial around here.

        • just saying 9.2.1.1

          “Again. Context. Get some.”

          And your argument is?

          • jbanks 9.2.1.1.1

            That in modern society – biological reproduction has nothing to do with being fit. The people doing the most reproducing are arguable the least ‘fittest’.

            So when we talk about natural selection, we’re talking about the new form of information in the fight to be reproduced – ‘values & beliefs’. Of which, the ‘weak’ ones (ie ones that work against our human nature) are dying.

            But you can blame the demise of left ideologies as being due to ‘propoganda’ if it makes you feel good.

            • Pascal's bookie 9.2.1.1.1.1

              Sounded better in the original german.

              • jbanks

                Godwin’d? Yeah, you got nothing.

                • Bored

                  Banksie, you mention the demise of left wing ideologies. So here you are arguing against left wing ideologies which are quite obviously (from the fact that left wing ideologues respond to you) not in a state of demise. Engage gear before releasing clutch.

                  • jbanks

                    You think that an insignificant little website like thestandard shows that left wing ideologies aren’t on the demise? Hahaha, now THAT’S propaganda.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Correct.

                      Using a rhetorical question to misrepresent someone’s position in order to avoid addressing it, is a propaganda technique.

                    • Bored

                      Hop hop judder judder re engage clutch, hell too few revs, no horsepower. Why am I not surprised?

                • Pascal's bookie

                  nah, I got plenty. f’rinstance:

                  That in modern society – biological reproduction has nothing to do with being fit. The people doing the most reproducing are arguable the least ‘fittest’.

                  This is just abject nonsense. Those doing the most reproduction are by definition the most fit it terms of natural selection. God alone knows why you brought up natural selection, but I suspect it is because you think it means ‘evolution’. You seem to think you are using it literally, when you are using it (poorly) as a metaphor, or an analogy.

                  If you want to use evolution as a metaphor for this question, which is fine, you might like to think about what would be analogous to what. What is the genotype? What is the phenotype? What is mutation? What is natural selection? What is sexual selection?

                  Which, if any, of those aspects of evo thinking would be analogous to propaganda?

                  Thinking about these things might require applying actual knowledge about both propaganda and evolution. We’ll see how you go, but bringing your arsehole to a brainfight is not a start.

                  • jbanks

                    “This is just abject nonsense. Those doing the most reproduction are by definition the most fit it terms of natural selection.”

                    You’re a bit slow eh? In what way is the ability to reproduce considered ‘fit’ [HINT: a comparative term] when the welfare state ensures that ANYONE can successfully reproduce? Biologically speaking there is no survival of the fittest anymore.

                    Tbh I’m not surprised that you are too daft to comprehend this.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      As suspected, you don’t really understand the concepts. You think you do though, and have run up against the problem of being too ignorant to recognise your ignorance.

                    • jbanks

                      Just as I thought, not educated enough to answer my question.

                      And this ladies and gentlemen, I mean gentlemen, is why my beliefs and ideals are doing A LOT better in the global informational survival fight.

                    • felix

                      It’s all a bit Gervais & Pilkington, this discussion.

                      Hint for banksie: Natural selection & evolution, they do not mean what you think they mean.

                    • lprent

                      Jbanks: I suspect that you have been watching too much Fox ‘news’ or some such nonsense. Untangling your half-arsed tangle is too much work for a warmish Saturday afternoon. I think a nap would be more productive than attempting to educate you.

                      BTW: you’re getting close to the pwned heresy. Just a gentle warning. Ah summer. It even mellows sysops.

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      My observation would be that Catholicism encourages breeding far more than welfare does. Both on a national and a global scale.

                      Of course most people aren’t on a benefit for a long period of time – does that mean that this biological imperative to breed occurs alongside their benefit application and subsides again when they are back in work – or are they sullied for life – never to be the same again?

                      Interestingly enough there is some research that shows when a population is under stress such as disease or famine or starvation – then the biological imperative to reproduce does increase. This makes sense – the lower the life expectancy the greater the need to reproduce in order for the species to survive. Conversely as populations have sufficient resource numbers of children usually reduce.

                      Taking away the welfare state might have the reverse effect – with even less support the urge to procreate may become even stronger – after all if you need to look after yourself in your old age then having lots of children is often the best way to do that.

                      That’d be cool eh jbanks – loads of little street urchins running around making your life miserable, selling matches on street corners, begging you for a shoeshine, cleaning your chimney.

                      Of course they’d be disposable – we could send em down coal-mines.

                      The trouble with some people is that they are so obsessed with thinking that everything is aligned to money – that if you have no income you will logically have no kids – cause you know you can’t afford em.

                      It’s particularly stupid though to think that a short-term political ascendancy of neo-liberal polices can have any impact on millions of years of evolution – the classic mistake of thinking that things that seem significant in your own life-time are big on the overall scale of things.

            • just saying 9.2.1.1.1.2

              Just as an aside,
              So, biological natural selection has led to “the least fittest” people doing the most reproducing, whereas cultural evolution necessarily leads to the ‘most fit’ values and beliefs prevailing….
              Cultural evolution more pure or what?

              • RedLogix

                Nah…. all banksie is doing is taking a valid biological principle …natural selection… and with no justification whatsoever he’s mapping it onto a completely different domain, that of principals and values.

                Yet as I suggested above, if I actually attempted to apply the principle of natural selection to him personally, he’d be most upset. Selective alright, just not in the way he’s thinking of.

                • Bored

                  Actually, if it were applied rigorously to him there would be six feet of soil between him and a keyboard. Personally I think iit is a load of bollocks applied to society, so he is safe from me shooting him for now.

              • jbanks

                Yes. With cultural evolution, over time only useful ideas and beliefs will survive. This is not the case with biological evolution atm.

                Of course with biological evolution ‘least fittest’ is only true if you agree with the premise that less intelligent, less productive, less self reliant people are unfit.

                • mcflock

                  In evolutionary terms, they’re only “unfit” if their population diminishes overall.

                  “Fittest” isn’t a morally qualitative term – if one group is reproducing more than another (and this isn’t offset by a much higher mortality rate), then it is more “fit” for the circumstantial niche both groups are trying to fill.

                  So your statement “That in modern society – biological reproduction has nothing to do with being fit. The people doing the most reproducing are arguable the least ‘fittest’” is nonsensical bunk. Even if you provided evidence that beneficiaries were “doing the most reproducing”.

                  And as for suggesting that “less fit” ideologies are being culled … well, that’s just the tory propagandist method of taking a scientific fact and applying it in a pseudo-scientific way to sound rational, mixed with the constant claim that left wing views are no longer held in any great measure by society becoz de wall dun cum down.

                  • jbanks

                    “In evolutionary terms, they’re only “unfit” if their population diminishes overall.
                    “Fittest” isn’t a morally qualitative term – if one group is reproducing more than another (and this isn’t offset by a much higher mortality rate), then it is more “fit” for the circumstantial niche both groups are trying to fill.”

                    *sigh* it really must be school holidays. In the context where there is a process in which the organisms with the best or most favorable genetic adaptations out-compete other organisms in a population, then yes.

                    But for the THIRD TIME we are not talking about a situation where reproducing at a greater rate makes you better-adapted.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      But for the THIRD TIME we are not talking about a situation where reproducing at a greater rate makes you better-adapted.

                      You’re the one that brought up natural selection. If it isn’t appropriate to whatever point you are failing to make, then you shouldn’t have brought it up.

                    • mcflock

                      “But for the THIRD TIME we are not talking about a situation where reproducing at a greater rate makes you better-adapted.”

                      No, it’s overall population levels that imply how well a particular population has adapted to its environment. While mortality might increase slightly with deprivation levels, it would have to increase at a higher rate than the birth rate to lower the population.

                      If this doesn’t apply to your argument, then “evolution” doesn’t apply. So you are using a shovel to tighten a bolt. And all the tradestaff on site are laughing at you.

                    • jbanks

                      “You’re the one that brought up natural selection. If it isn’t appropriate to whatever point you are failing to make, then you shouldn’t have brought it up.”

                      It is relevant to what I’m saying about the survival of ideologies. The best ideologies are out-competing the other ideologies and these less valuable ones are being weeded out over time. It’s not rocket science you imbecile.

                      Also it was redlogix who naively tried to apply NS to modern reproduction.

                    • mcflock

                      Nope, RL just wanted to apply it to you:

                      So you have no personal objection to me applying the ‘laws of natural selection’ on you then? If I’m bigger, meaner and faster than you logically you will simply get “pruned”.

                      Tough if that hurts. Or is there more to life than the “laws of natural selection”?

                      You applied it to wider society in an incorrect way:

                      That in modern society – biological reproduction has nothing to do with being fit. The people doing the most reproducing are arguable the least ‘fittest’.

                      That is the comment that really shows how you don’t know what you are talking about. Without a corresponding increase in mortality, a large reproduction rate means a larger population increase, no? So the population is expanding fast than its “competitors” (if this term even applies to demographic subgroups). So it is actually MOST SUITED to the current situation.

                      It seems Big Bruv has a friend just as delusional.

  10. just saying 10

    So your argument is that if an idea survives and is propagated it does so because it is ‘correct’ and ‘good’. There is an almost infinite number of examples that show this is factualy incorrect.

    So when we talk about natural selection, we’re talking about the new form of information in the fight to be reproduced – ‘values & beliefs’. Of which, the ‘weak’ ones (ie ones that work against our human nature) are dying”

    Could you be more pompous?

    So the cultural beliefs and values held by the last remnants of humanity before we die out (and if there are enough people these will be conflicting) will be the ultimate winners. The most true and the most good?

    • Bored 10.1

      Spot on JS, Banks is starting off down that road toward self justification, might is right. The natural corollary to this odious ideology is that those who cant compete and are therefore unselected are “unfit”. Eugenics works this way, it leads to killing off the retarded and disabled, then any other group those with power see fit to “unselect” from “fitness”. We can leave it to Banks to fill in the dots to find examples, if he is honest he willl find the extreme ends of materialist ideologies of both the left and right will fit the bill.

    • jbanks 10.2

      “So your argument is that if an idea survives and is propagated it does so because it is ‘correct’ and ‘good’. There is an almost infinite number of examples that show this is factualy incorrect.”

      No ‘correct’ and ‘good’ are only relative to particular subjective premises. More a pruning of beliefs that are less useful to society.

      • just saying 10.2.1

        Don’t want to continue a crappy side issue in an otherwise valuable discussion. So just a final few words.

        Quote jbanks: “…That in modern society – biological reproduction has nothing to do with being fit. The people doing the most reproducing are arguable the least ‘fittest’”

        Personally I think this is bollocks, but regardless, in saying it you claim that natural selection can get it wrong that – less “fit” is prevailing over more “fit”. Then in contradiction you maintain that the “natural selection” of ideas and values, for some unspecified reason is infallible. Maybe you should have picked a different metaphor, but I suspect you were trying infuse your narrow and bigoted little mindscape with the lustre of “scientific” credibility.

        btw. you can’t get around the problems around truth and value by switching to the word ‘useful’ midstream. The same arguments apply and what constitutes a ‘useful’ idea is just as subjective.

  11. jbanks 11

    Jbanks: I suspect that you have been watching too much Fox ‘news’ or some such nonsense. Untangling your half-arsed tangle is too much work for a warmish Saturday afternoon. I think a nap would be more productive than attempting to educate you.

    LOLZ!?!11

    If you can’t support a child, don’t have one. It’s that simple.

    You’re so cripplingly blinkered and bound by your online obligations that when it comes to intelligent debate . . . you can’t not come across as a n00b.

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      If you can’t support a child, don’t have one. It’s that simple.

      Wow as if everyone about to become parents for the first time actually planned it like simple clockwork.

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Top 10 for Monday, December 11
    Luxon does not see the point in Treasury analysing the impact of some of his government’s ‘first 100-day’ reforms. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere on the morning of Monday, December 11, including:Scoop of the day: A Treasury ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 hour ago
  • BRIAN EASTON: How should we organise a modern economy?
     Alan Bollard, formerly Treasury Secretary, Reserve Bank Governor and Chairman of APEC, has written an insightful book exploring command vs demand approaches to the economy. Brian Easton writes – The Cold War included a conflict about ideas; many were economic. Alan Bollard’s latest book Economists in the ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    1 hour ago
  • Coalition Circus of Chaos – Verbal gymnasts; an inept Ringmaster, and a helluva lot of clowns
    ..Thanks for reading Frankly Speaking ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.The Curtain Closes…You have to hand it to Aotearoa - voters don’t do things by halves. People wanted change, and by golly, change they got. Baby, bathwater; rubber ducky - all out.There is something ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    4 hours ago
  • “Brown-town”: the Wayne & Simeon show
    Last week Auckland Mayor Wayne Brown kicked off what is always the most important thing a Council does every three years – update its ‘Long term plan’. This is the budgeting process for the Council and – unlike central government – the budget has to balance in terms of income ...
    5 hours ago
  • Not To Cast Stones…
    Yeah I changed my wine into waterHad a miracle or four since I saw youSome came on time, some took a whileLocal Water Done Well.One of our new government’s first actions, number 20 on their list of 49 priorities, is the repeal of the previous government’s Water Services Entities Act 2022. Three Waters, ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 hours ago
  • So much noise and so little signal
    Parliament opened with pomp and ceremony, then it was back to politicians shouting at and past each other into the void. Photo: Office of the Clerk, NZ ParliamentTL;DR: It started with pomp, pageantry and a speech from the throne laying out the new National-ACT-NZ First Government’s plan to turn back ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 hours ago
  • Lost in the Desert: Accepted
    As noted, November was an exceptionally good writing month for me. Well, in an additional bit of good news for December, one of those November stories, Lost in the Desert, has been accepted by Eternal Haunted Summer (https://eternalhauntedsummer.com/) for their Winter Solstice 2023 issue. At 3,500 words, ...
    14 hours ago
  • This Government and their Rightwing culture-war flanks picked a fight with the country… not the ot...
    ACT and the culture-war warriors of the Right have picked this fight with Te Ao Māori. Ideologically-speaking, as a Party they’ve actually done this since inception, let’s be clear about that. So there is no real need to delve at length into their duplicitous, malignant, hypocritical manipulations. Yes, yes, ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    15 hours ago
  • 2023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #49
    A chronological listing of news and opinion articles posted on the Skeptical Science  Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Dec 3, 2023 thru Sat, Dec 9, 2023. Story of the Week Interactive: The pathways to meeting the Paris Agreement’s 1.5C limit The Paris Agreement’s long-term goal of keeping warming “well below” ...
    22 hours ago
  • LOGAN SAVORY: The planned blessing that has irked councillors
    “I’m struggling to understand why we are having a blessing to bless this site considering it is a scrap metal yard… It just doesn’t make sense to me.” Logan Savory writes- When’s a blessing appropriate and when isn’t it? Some Invercargill City Councillors have questioned whether blessings might ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    23 hours ago
  • Surely it won't happen
    I have prepared a bad news sandwich. That is to say, I'm going to try and make this more agreeable by placing on the top and underneath some cheering things.So let's start with a daughter update, the one who is now half a world away but also never farther out ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 day ago
  • Let Them Eat Sausage Rolls: Hipkins Tries to Kill Labour Again
    Sometimes you despair. You really do. Fresh off leading Labour to its ugliest election result since 1990,* Chris Hipkins has decided to misdiagnose matters, because the Government he led cannot possibly have been wrong about anything. *In 2011 and 2014, people were willing to save Labour’s electorate ...
    2 days ago
  • Clued Up: Ageing Boomers, Laurie & Les, Talk Politics.
    “But, that’s the thing, mate, isn’t it? We showed ourselves to be nothing more useful than a bunch of angry old men, shaking our fists at the sky. Were we really that angry at Labour and the Greens? Or was it just the inescapable fact of our own growing irrelevancy ...
    2 days ago
  • JERRY COYNE: A powerful University dean in New Zealand touts merging higher education with indigeno...
    Jerry Coyne writes –  This article from New Zealand’s Newsroom site was written by Julie Rowland,  the deputy dean of the Faculty of Science at the University of Auckland as well as a geologist and the Director of the Ngā Ara Whetū | Centre for Climate, Biodiversity & Society. In other ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    2 days ago
  • Ain't nobody gonna steal this heart away.
    Ain't nobody gonna steal this heart away.For the last couple of weeks its felt as though all the good things in our beautiful land are under attack.These isles in the southern Pacific. The home of the Māori people. A land of easy going friendliness, openness, and she’ll be right. A ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 days ago
  • Speaking for the future
    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past week’s editions.MondayYou cannot be seriousOne might think, god, people who are seeing all this must be regretting their vote.But one might be mistaken.There are people whose chief priority is not wanting to be ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    2 days ago
  • How Should We Organise a Modern Economy?
    Alan Bollard, formerly Treasury Secretary, Reserve Bank Governor and Chairman of APEC, has written an insightful book exploring command vs demand approaches to the economy. The Cold War included a conflict about ideas; many were economic. Alan Bollard’s latest book Economists in the Cold War focuses on the contribution of ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    3 days ago
  • Willis fails a taxing app-titude test but govt supporters will cheer moves on Te Pukenga and the Hum...
    Buzz from the Beehive The Minister of Defence has returned from Noumea to announce New Zealand will host next year’s South Pacific Defence Ministers’ Meeting and (wearing another ministerial hat) to condemn malicious cyber activity conducted by the Russian Government. A bigger cheer from people who voted for the Luxon ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago
  • ELIZABETH RATA: In defence of the liberal university and against indigenisation
    The suppression of individual thought in our universities spills over into society, threatening free speech everywhere. Elizabeth Rata writes –  Indigenising New Zealand’s universities is well underway, presumably with the agreement of University Councils and despite the absence of public discussion. Indigenising, under the broader umbrella of decolonisation, ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the skewed media coverage of Gaza
    Now that he’s back as Foreign Minister, maybe Winston Peters should start reading the MFAT website. If he did, Peters would find MFAT celebrating the 25th anniversary of how New Zealand alerted the rest of the world to the genocide developing in Rwanda. Quote: New Zealand played an important role ...
    3 days ago
  • “Your Circus, Your Clowns.”
    It must have been a hard first couple of weeks for National voters, since the coalition was announced. Seeing their party make so many concessions to New Zealand First and ACT that there seems little remains of their own policies, other than the dwindling dream of tax cuts and the ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • Weekly Roundup 8-December-2023
    It’s Friday again and Christmas is fast approaching. Here’s some of the stories that caught our attention. This week in Greater Auckland On Tuesday Matt covered some of the recent talk around the costs, benefits and challenges with the City Rail Link. On Thursday Matt looked at how ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    3 days ago
  • End-of-week escapism
    Amsterdam to Hong Kong William McCartney16,000 kilometres41 days18 trains13 countries11 currencies6 long-distance taxis4 taxi apps4 buses3 sim cards2 ferries1 tram0 medical events (surprisingly)Episode 4Whether the Sofia-Istanbul Express really qualifies to be called an express is debatable, but it’s another one of those likeably old and slow trains tha… ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to Dec 8
    Governor-General Dame Cindy Kiro arrives for the State Opening of Parliament (Photo: Hagen Hopkins/Getty Images)TL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:New Finance Minister Nicola Willis set herself a ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand’s Witchcraft Laws: 1840/1858-1961/1962
    Sometimes one gets morbidly curious about the oddities of one’s own legal system. Sometimes one writes entire essays on New Zealand’s experience with Blasphemous Libel: https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2017/05/09/blasphemous-libel-new-zealand-politics/ And sometimes one follows up the exact historical status of witchcraft law in New Zealand. As one does, of course. ...
    3 days ago
  • No surprises
    Don’t expect any fiscal shocks or surprises when the books are opened on December 20 with the unveiling of the Half Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU). That was the message yesterday from Westpac in an economic commentary. But the bank’s analysis did not include any changes to capital ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    3 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #49 2023
    113 articles in 48 journals by 674 contributing authors Physical science of climate change, effects Diversity of Lagged Relationships in Global Means of Surface Temperatures and Radiative Budgets for CMIP6 piControl Simulations, Tsuchida et al., Journal of Climate 10.1175/jcli-d-23-0045.1 Do abrupt cryosphere events in High Mountain Asia indicate earlier tipping ...
    4 days ago
  • Phone calls at Kia Kaha primary
    It is quiet reading time in Room 13! It is so quiet you can hear the Tui outside. It is so quiet you can hear the Fulton Hogan crew.It is so quiet you can hear old Mr Grant and old Mr Bradbury standing by the roadworks and counting the conesand going on ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago
  • A question of confidence is raised by the Minister of Police, but he had to be questioned by RNZ to ...
    It looks like the new ministerial press secretaries have quickly learned the art of camouflaging exactly what their ministers are saying – or, at least, of keeping the hard news  out of the headlines and/or the opening sentences of the statements they post on the home page of the governments ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • Xmas  good  cheer  for the dairy industry  as Fonterra lifts its forecast
    The big dairy co-op Fonterra  had  some Christmas  cheer to offer  its farmers this week, increasing its forecast farmgate milk price and earnings guidance for  the year after what it calls a strong start to the year. The forecast  midpoint for the 2023/24 season is up 25cs to $7.50 per ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • MICHAEL BASSETT: Modern Maori myths
    Michael Bassett writes – Many of the comments about the Coalition’s determination to wind back the dramatic Maorification of New Zealand of the last three years would have you believe the new government is engaged in a full-scale attack on Maori. In reality, all that is happening ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • Dreams of eternal sunshine at a spotless COP28
    Mary Robinson asked Al Jaber a series of very simple, direct and highly pertinent questions and he responded with a high-octane public meltdown. Photos: Getty Images / montage: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR The hygiene effects of direct sunshine are making some inroads, perhaps for the very first time, on the normalised ‘deficit ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • LINDSAY MITCHELL: Oh, the irony
    Lindsay Mitchell writes – Appointed by new Labour PM Jacinda Ardern in 2018, Cindy Kiro headed the Welfare Expert Advisory Group (WEAG) tasked with reviewing and recommending reforms to the welfare system. Kiro had been Children’s Commissioner during Helen Clark’s Labour government but returned to academia subsequently. ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • Transport Agencies don’t want Harbour Tunnels
    It seems even our transport agencies don’t want Labour’s harbour crossing plans. In August the previous government and Waka Kotahi announced their absurd preferred option the new harbour crossing that at the time was estimated to cost $35-45 billion. It included both road tunnels and a wiggly light rail tunnel ...
    4 days ago
  • Webworm Presents: Jurassic Park on 35mm
    Hi,Paying Webworm members such as yourself keep this thing running, so as 2023 draws to close, I wanted to do two things to say a giant, loud “THANKS”. Firstly — I’m giving away 10 Mister Organ blu-rays in New Zealand, and another 10 in America. More details down below.Secondly — ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    4 days ago
  • The Prime Minister's Dream.
    Yesterday saw the State Opening of Parliament, the Speech from the Throne, and then Prime Minister Christopher Luxon’s dream for Aotearoa in his first address. But first the pomp and ceremony, the arrival of the Governor General.Dame Cindy Kiro arrived on the forecourt outside of parliament to a Māori welcome. ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • National’s new MP; the proud part-Maori boy raised in a state house
    Probably not since 1975 have we seen a government take office up against such a wall of protest and complaint. That was highlighted yesterday, the day that the new Parliament was sworn in, with news that King Tuheitia has called a national hui for late January to develop a ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    4 days ago
  • Climate Adam: Battlefield Earth – How War Fuels Climate Catastrophe
    This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). War, conflict and climate change are tearing apart lives across the world. But these aren't separate harms - they're intricately connected. ...
    5 days ago
  • They do not speak for us, and they do not speak for the future
    These dire woeful and intolerant people have been so determinedly going about their small and petulant business, it’s hard to keep up. At the end of the new government’s first woeful week, Audrey Young took the time to count off its various acts of denigration of Te Ao Māori:Review the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • Another attack on te reo
    The new white supremacist government made attacking te reo a key part of its platform, promising to rename government agencies and force them to "communicate primarily in English" (which they already do). But today they've gone further, by trying to cut the pay of public servants who speak te reo: ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • For the record, the Beehive buzz can now be regarded as “official”
    Buzz from the Beehive The biggest buzz we bring you from the Beehive today is that the government’s official website is up and going after being out of action for more than a week. The latest press statement came  from  Education Minister  Eric Stanford, who seized on the 2022 PISA ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: Failed again
    There was another ETS auction this morning. and like all the other ones this year, it failed to clear - meaning that 23 million tons of carbon (15 million ordinary units plus 8 million in the cost containment reserve) went up in smoke. Or rather, they didn't. Being unsold at ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell On The Government’s Assault On Maori
    This isn’t news, but the National-led coalition is mounting a sustained assault on Treaty rights and obligations. Even so, Christopher Luxon has described yesterday’s nationwide protests by Maori as “pretty unfair.” Poor thing. In the NZ Herald, Audrey Young has compiled a useful list of the many, many ways that ...
    5 days ago
  • Rising costs hit farmers hard, but  there’s more  positive news  for  them this  week 
    New Zealand’s dairy industry, the mainstay of the country’s export trade, has  been under  pressure  from rising  costs. Down on the  farm, this  has  been  hitting  hard. But there  was more positive news this week,  first   from the latest Fonterra GDT auction where  prices  rose,  and  then from  a  report ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    5 days ago
  • ROB MacCULLOCH:  Newshub and NZ Herald report misleading garbage about ACT’s van Veldon not follo...
    Rob MacCulloch writes –  In their rush to discredit the new government (which our MainStream Media regard as illegitimate and having no right to enact the democratic will of voters) the NZ Herald and Newshub are arguing ACT’s Deputy Leader Brooke van Veldon is not following Treasury advice ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Top 10 for Wednesday, December 6
    Even many young people who smoke support smokefree policies, fitting in with previous research showing the large majority of people who smoke regret starting and most want to quit. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere on the morning of Wednesday, December ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Eleven years of work.
    Well it didn’t take six months, but the leaks have begun. Yes the good ship Coalition has inadvertently released a confidential cabinet paper into the public domain, discussing their axing of Fair Pay Agreements (FPAs).Oops.Just when you were admiring how smoothly things were going for the new government, they’ve had ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • Why we're missing out on sharply lower inflation
    A wave of new and higher fees, rates and charges will ripple out over the economy in the next 18 months as mayors, councillors, heads of department and price-setters for utilities such as gas, electricity, water and parking ramp up charges. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Just when most ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • How Did We Get Here?
    Hi,Kiwis — keep the evening of December 22nd free. I have a meetup planned, and will send out an invite over the next day or so. This sounds sort of crazy to write, but today will be Tony Stamp’s final Totally Normal column of 2023. Somehow we’ve made it to ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    5 days ago
  • At a glance – Has the greenhouse effect been falsified?
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    6 days ago
  • New Zealaders  have  high expectations of  new  government:  now let’s see if it can deliver?
    The electorate has high expectations of the  new  government.  The question is: can  it  deliver?    Some  might  say  the  signs are not  promising. Protestors   are  already marching in the streets. The  new  Prime Minister has had  little experience of managing  very diverse politicians  in coalition. The economy he  ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    6 days ago
  • You won't believe some of the numbers you have to pull when you're a Finance Minister
    Nicola of Marsden:Yo, normies! We will fix your cost of living worries by giving you a tax cut of 150 dollars. 150! Cash money! Vote National.Various people who can read and count:Actually that's 150 over a fortnight. Not a week, which is how you usually express these things.And actually, it looks ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago
  • Pushback
    When this government came to power, it did so on an explicitly white supremacist platform. Undermining the Waitangi Tribunal, removing Māori representation in local government, over-riding the courts which had tried to make their foreshore and seabed legislation work, eradicating te reo from public life, and ultimately trying to repudiate ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Defence ministerial meeting meant Collins missed the Maori Party’s mischief-making capers in Parli...
    Buzz from the Beehive Maybe this is not the best time for our Minister of Defence to have gone overseas. Not when the Maori Party is inviting (or should that be inciting?) its followers to join a revolution in a post which promoted its protest plans with a picture of ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • Threats of war have been followed by an invitation to join the revolution – now let’s see how th...
     A Maori Party post on Instagram invited party followers to ….  Tangata Whenua, Tangata Tiriti, Join the REVOLUTION! & make a stand!  Nationwide Action Day, All details in tiles swipe to see locations.  • This is our 1st hit out and tomorrow Tuesday the 5th is the opening ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • Top 10 for Tuesday, December 4
    The RBNZ governor is citing high net migration and profit-led inflation as factors in the bank’s hawkish stance. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere on the morning of Tuesday, December 5, including:Reserve Bank Governor Adrian Orr says high net migration and ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Nicola Willis' 'show me the money' moment
    Willis has accused labour of “economic vandalism’, while Robertson described her comments as a “desperate diversion from somebody who can't make their tax package add up”. There will now be an intense focus on December 20 to see whether her hyperbole is backed up by true surprises. Photo montage: Lynn ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • CRL costs money but also provides huge benefits
    The City Rail Link has been in the headlines a bit recently so I thought I’d look at some of them. First up, yesterday the NZ Herald ran this piece about the ongoing costs of the CRL. Auckland ratepayers will be saddled with an estimated bill of $220 million each ...
    6 days ago
  • And I don't want the world to see us.
    Is this the most shambolic government in the history of New Zealand? Given that parliament hasn’t even opened they’ve managed quite a list of achievements to date.The Smokefree debacle trading lives for tax cuts, the Trumpian claims of bribery in the Media, an International award for indifference, and today the ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago
  • Cooking the books
    Finance Minister Nicola Willis late yesterday stopped only slightly short of accusing her predecessor Grant Robertson of cooking the books. She complained that the Half Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU), due to be made public on December 20, would show “fiscal cliffs” that would amount to “billions of ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    6 days ago
  • Most people don’t realize how much progress we’ve made on climate change
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections The year was 2015. ‘Uptown Funk’ with Bruno Mars was at the top of the music charts. Jurassic World was the most popular new movie in theaters. And decades of futility in international climate negotiations was about to come to an end in ...
    7 days ago
  • Of Parliamentary Oaths and Clive Boonham
    As a heads-up, I am not one of those people who stay awake at night thinking about weird Culture War nonsense. At least so far as the current Maori/Constitutional arrangements go. In fact, I actually consider it the least important issue facing the day to day lives of New ...
    7 days ago
  • Bearing True Allegiance?
    Strong Words: “We do not consent, we do not surrender, we do not cede, we do not submit; we, the indigenous, are rising. We do not buy into the colonial fictions this House is built upon. Te Pāti Māori pledges allegiance to our mokopuna, our whenua, and Te Tiriti o ...
    7 days ago
  • You cannot be serious
    Some days it feels like the only thing to say is: Seriously? No, really. Seriously?OneSomeone has used their health department access to share data about vaccinations and patients, and inform the world that New Zealanders have been dying in their hundreds of thousands from the evil vaccine. This of course is pure ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 days ago
  • A promise kept: govt pulls the plug on Lake Onslow scheme – but this saving of $16bn is denounced...
    Buzz from the Beehive After $21.8 million was spent on investigations, the plug has been pulled on the Lake Onslow pumped-hydro electricity scheme, The scheme –  that technically could have solved New Zealand’s looming energy shortage, according to its champions – was a key part of the defeated Labour government’s ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    7 days ago
  • CHRIS TROTTER: The Maori Party and Oath of Allegiance
    If those elected to the Māori Seats refuse to take them, then what possible reason could the country have for retaining them?   Chris Trotter writes – Christmas is fast approaching, which, as it does every year, means gearing up for an abstruse general knowledge question. “Who was ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    7 days ago
  • BRIAN EASTON:  Forward to 2017
    The coalition party agreements are mainly about returning to 2017 when National lost power. They show commonalities but also some serious divergencies. Brian Easton writes The two coalition agreements – one National and ACT, the other National and New Zealand First – are more than policy documents. ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Fossils
    When the new government promised to allow new offshore oil and gas exploration, they were warned that there would be international criticism and reputational damage. Naturally, they arrogantly denied any possibility that that would happen. And then they finally turned up at COP, to criticism from Palau, and a "fossil ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • GEOFFREY MILLER:  NZ’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and Ukraine
    Geoffrey Miller writes – New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    1 week ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the government’s smokefree laws debacle
    The most charitable explanation for National’s behaviour over the smokefree legislation is that they have dutifully fulfilled the wishes of the Big Tobacco lobby and then cast around – incompetently, as it turns out – for excuses that might sell this health policy U-turn to the public. The less charitable ...
    1 week ago
  • Top 10 links at 10 am for Monday, December 4
    As Deb Te Kawa writes in an op-ed, the new Government seems to have immediately bought itself fights with just about everyone. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere as of 10 am on Monday December 4, including:Palau’s President ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • Be Honest.
    Let’s begin today by thinking about job interviews.During my career in Software Development I must have interviewed hundreds of people, hired at least a hundred, but few stick in the memory.I remember one guy who was so laid back he was practically horizontal, leaning back in his chair until his ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: New Zealand’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and Ukraine
    New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he left off. Peters sought to align ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    1 week ago
  • Auckland rail tunnel the world’s most expensive
    Auckland’s city rail link is the most expensive rail project in the world per km, and the CRL boss has described the cost of infrastructure construction in Aotearoa as a crisis. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The 3.5 km City Rail Link (CRL) tunnel under Auckland’s CBD has cost ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • First big test coming
    The first big test of the new Government’s approach to Treaty matters is likely to be seen in the return of the Resource Management Act. RMA Minister Chris Bishop has confirmed that he intends to introduce legislation to repeal Labour’s recently passed Natural and Built Environments Act and its ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    1 week ago

  • Ministers visit Hawke’s Bay to grasp recovery needs
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon joined Cyclone Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell and Transport and Local Government Minister Simeon Brown, to meet leaders of cyclone and flood-affected regions in the Hawke’s Bay. The visit reinforced the coalition Government’s commitment to support the region and better understand its ongoing requirements, Mr Mitchell says.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand condemns malicious cyber activity
    New Zealand has joined the UK and other partners in condemning malicious cyber activity conducted by the Russian Government, Minister Responsible for the Government Communications Security Bureau Judith Collins says. The statement follows the UK’s attribution today of malicious cyber activity impacting its domestic democratic institutions and processes, as well ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Disestablishment of Te Pūkenga begins
    The Government has begun the process of disestablishing Te Pūkenga as part of its 100-day plan, Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills Penny Simmonds says.  “I have started putting that plan into action and have met with the chair and chief Executive of Te Pūkenga to advise them of my ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Climate Change Minister to attend COP28 in Dubai
    Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will be leaving for Dubai today to attend COP28, the 28th annual UN climate summit, this week. Simon Watts says he will push for accelerated action towards the goals of the Paris Agreement, deliver New Zealand’s national statement and connect with partner countries, private sector leaders ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand to host 2024 Pacific defence meeting
    Defence Minister Judith Collins yesterday announced New Zealand will host next year’s South Pacific Defence Ministers’ Meeting (SPDMM). “Having just returned from this year’s meeting in Nouméa, I witnessed first-hand the value of meeting with my Pacific counterparts to discuss regional security and defence matters. I welcome the opportunity to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Study shows need to remove distractions in class
    The Government is committed to lifting school achievement in the basics and that starts with removing distractions so young people can focus on their learning, Education Minister Erica Stanford says.   The 2022 PISA results released this week found that Kiwi kids ranked 5th in the world for being distracted ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister sets expectations of Commissioner
    Today I met with Police Commissioner Andrew Coster to set out my expectations, which he has agreed to, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. Under section 16(1) of the Policing Act 2008, the Minister can expect the Police Commissioner to deliver on the Government’s direction and priorities, as now outlined in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New Zealand needs a strong and stable ETS
    New Zealand needs a strong and stable Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) that is well placed for the future, after emission units failed to sell for the fourth and final auction of the year, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says.  At today’s auction, 15 million New Zealand units (NZUs) – each ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • PISA results show urgent need to teach the basics
    With 2022 PISA results showing a decline in achievement, Education Minister Erica Stanford is confident that the Coalition Government’s 100-day plan for education will improve outcomes for Kiwi kids.  The 2022 PISA results show a significant decline in the performance of 15-year-old students in maths compared to 2018 and confirms ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Collins leaves for Pacific defence meeting
    Defence Minister Judith Collins today departed for New Caledonia to attend the 8th annual South Pacific Defence Ministers’ meeting (SPDMM). “This meeting is an excellent opportunity to meet face-to-face with my Pacific counterparts to discuss regional security matters and to demonstrate our ongoing commitment to the Pacific,” Judith Collins says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Working for Families gets cost of living boost
    Putting more money in the pockets of hard-working families is a priority of this Coalition Government, starting with an increase to Working for Families, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says. “We are starting our 100-day plan with a laser focus on bringing down the cost of living, because that is what ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Post-Cabinet press conference
    Most weeks, following Cabinet, the Prime Minister holds a press conference for members of the Parliamentary Press Gallery. This page contains the transcripts from those press conferences, which are supplied by Hansard to the Office of the Prime Minister. It is important to note that the transcripts have not been edited ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Lake Onslow pumped hydro scheme scrapped
    The Government has axed the $16 billion Lake Onslow pumped hydro scheme championed by the previous government, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says. “This hugely wasteful project was pouring money down the drain at a time when we need to be reining in spending and focussing on rebuilding the economy and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • NZ welcomes further pause in fighting in Gaza
    New Zealand welcomes the further one-day extension of the pause in fighting, which will allow the delivery of more urgently-needed humanitarian aid into Gaza and the release of more hostages, Foreign Minister Winston Peters said. “The human cost of the conflict is horrific, and New Zealand wants to see the violence ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Condolences on passing of Henry Kissinger
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters today expressed on behalf of the New Zealand Government his condolences to the family of former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, who has passed away at the age of 100 at his home in Connecticut. “While opinions on his legacy are varied, Secretary Kissinger was ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Backing our kids to learn the basics
    Every child deserves a world-leading education, and the Coalition Government is making that a priority as part of its 100-day plan. Education Minister Erica Stanford says that will start with banning cellphone use at school and ensuring all primary students spend one hour on reading, writing, and maths each day. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • US Business Summit Speech – Regional stability through trade
    I would like to begin by echoing the Prime Minister’s thanks to the organisers of this Summit, Fran O’Sullivan and the Auckland Business Chamber.  I want to also acknowledge the many leading exporters, sector representatives, diplomats, and other leaders we have joining us in the room. In particular, I would like ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Keynote Address to the United States Business Summit, Auckland
    Good morning. Thank you, Rosemary, for your warm introduction, and to Fran and Simon for this opportunity to make some brief comments about New Zealand’s relationship with the United States.  This is also a chance to acknowledge my colleague, Minister for Trade Todd McClay, Ambassador Tom Udall, Secretary of Foreign ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • India New Zealand Business Council Speech, India as a Strategic Priority
    Good morning, tēnā koutou and namaskar. Many thanks, Michael, for your warm welcome. I would like to acknowledge the work of the India New Zealand Business Council in facilitating today’s event and for the Council’s broader work in supporting a coordinated approach for lifting New Zealand-India relations. I want to also ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Coalition Government unveils 100-day plan
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has laid out the Coalition Government’s plan for its first 100 days from today. “The last few years have been incredibly tough for so many New Zealanders. People have put their trust in National, ACT and NZ First to steer them towards a better, more prosperous ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • New Zealand welcomes European Parliament vote on the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement
    A significant milestone in ratifying the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement (FTA) was reached last night, with 524 of the 705 member European Parliament voting in favour to approve the agreement. “I’m delighted to hear of the successful vote to approve the NZ-EU FTA in the European Parliament overnight. This is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago

Page generated in The Standard by Wordpress at 2023-12-10T23:52:12+00:00