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I want that left wing bastard gone

Written By: - Date published: 4:01 pm, April 13th, 2015 - 277 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, Dirty Politics, Media, tv - Tags: , ,

Joe Trinder at Mana News makes an interesting claim:

Key: I want that left wing bastard gone

Last year Prime Minister John Key and Mark Weldon had a phone conversation in regards to John Campbell. Mr Key was overheard saying “I want that left wing bastard gone”. The prime minister had insidiously conspired with Mark Weldon to end John Campbell’s broadcasting career and have Campbell live taken off the air. …

There are further claims relating to the role of Burger King.

In comments following Joe strongly defends the Key claim, and states that he has a witness who can verify it. The reaction to these claims (e.g. on Twitter) has been mixed / skeptical.

277 comments on “I want that left wing bastard gone”

  1. tinfoilhat 1


    • Once was Tim 1.1

      That’s not actually a look of surprise is it?

      If it is then I take it you’ve not encountered many ‘Masters of the Universe’ (those who’re usually of average intelligence but equipped with animal cunning [shithouse rats and drainpipes spring to mind]; who’ve learned the spin lingo – or shud I say they’ve had “learnings”; and whose animal survival instinct has been particularly successful in an environment where there’s a laid-back [“she’ll be right”] attitude whisch is fucking easy and ripe for fascist intent.
      Roll the dice …. ya get what you deserve. It’s just that all those various minorities (that a functioning democracy is supposed to be sympathetic to) take the burdom.

      …..The Band …… “the Weight”

      Nazareth is soon to be the best NuZull can hope for (Christ Almighty … and John Key is a Jew …. yea well Mex Key’s a D-d-d-d-JAY)

    • quinnjin 1.2

      Tin Foil Hat? You mean the one worn by idiots who believe John keys BS and vote national? Yes I agree, they’re all right wing nut jobs. We know John Key is a lying corrupt scum bag, who has it in for decent journalists and anyone who isn’t his pet bum boy like Mike “SkyCitySponsored” Hoskings, and Paul “ShitforBreakfast” Henry. That’s a matter of historical record.
      We know Keys privileged relationship track record with media works and that companies obvious right wing pro national bias.
      So this is in fact entirely believable.
      No tin foil hat required. Whether its true, or verifiable, is another matter obviously.

  2. Anne 2

    There’s no doubting a set of circumstances was used by a bunch of Key/Joyce acolytes as an excuse to get rid of Campbell. Nonetheless if you’re going to publicly make such a claim then you have to provide something that would count as evidence otherwise you play into the enemy’s hands.

    A few weeks ago Kim Dotcom made a claim that a bunch of SIS staffers were planning to set up some sort of honey trap for him using one of their female agents. He claimed it was revealed in an OIA’d document his lawyer acquired. He went on to say he had since received an apology from the SIS Director, Rebecca Kitteridge. Unless he was prepared to release the evidence proving it’s authenticity, he should have kept his mouth shut.

    • Rob 2.1

      Jeez, imagine the poor soul who was to be ‘pimped out’ as the bait.

      • rawshark-yeshe 2.1.1

        @Rob .. unnecessarily ugly of you, don’t you think ? or just simply vile and mean ?

        jeez is right.

      • Not Arandar 2.1.2

        Are you saying Pam Corkery is an SIS plant?

        [There is a glitch. This comment was not made by Arandar] – Bill

        [lprent: someone hijacking a email address. Adding to permanent bans. By the look of it some kind of arsehole from Lauda Finem astroturfing a post]

        • Once was Tim

          She could be lol – my cuzzie was an SIS agent not so very long ago – I suspect turfed out because of his alcoholism – but – parse the parcel and what plays in Vegas stays in Vegas and all that kaka. That’s of course until there’s a player who prioritises the blood is thicker than water routine.
          I’m almost sure the SIS and GCSB have an overpaid ‘risk manager’ who is on “the case”. (incidentally – s0 too the Polis)
          Wouldn’t be too dissimilar though would it to the number of our ‘honourable poltishuns” whose various indiscretions are kept from public media.

          If Pam Corkery is a plant – her ex Phil would have been arrested many many moons ago (rather than some hard done-by Kapiti Coast ???? with a shitload on its political rep); Simon Wilson wouldn’t be editor of metro, and half of the Onslow College ilk of the day would be watching their backs and considering various claims of abuse.
          (I suppose the upside is, half of them were able to walk those glorious polishied concrete floors in the archtecturally twee Burma Road mansion that “the Si” once graced.)
          I stand in awe – actually I lay down and have a gigantic sleep in awe.

    • tinfoilhat 2.2

      @ anne …yes if he and his gathering of sycophants and various hangers on had kept their mouths shut over the last couple of years we might now have a Green/Labour government !

      • Anne 2.2.1

        Hang on tfh who is “he”? If you’re referring to John Campbell then you don’t know what you’re talking about. Its Campbell Live’s job to ferret out corruption, incompetency and poor governance be it government, local bodies or the private sector.

        • tinfoilhat

          Dotcom……why on earth would anyone expect John Campbell to keep his mouth shut ?

          • Anne

            Oh I see tfh, that makes more sense. Sorry about that, but you didn’t make yourself very clear.

    • James 2.3

      Kim Dotcom makes a lot of claims – Last time he released “evidence” at the moment of truth it didn’t exactly stand up to scrutiny.

      • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.1

        It successfully exposed NZ’s complicity and role in the FVEY surveillance network. It didn’t do much to lay a specific finger on John Key though, even though Key is a central figure with knowledge of what NZ is committed to.

        • Richard Christie

          What happened to the email DC presented? Did it not go to a parliamentary committee or something?
          Or are we all just to accept it was faked on the say so of Key and a Hollywood exec ?

          • McFlock

            damn, it’s almost as if we need a government agency that independently archives everyone’s emails so we can confirm veracity in situations such as this 🙂

          • Lanthanide

            They tried to present it to the speaker to go to the privileges committee, but it had dissolved because of the election.

            Nothing happened after that, presumably because Mana / IP didn’t get back into Parliament, and none of the other parties were stupid enough to raise it after that.

            I read somewhere recently (maybe a comment here?) that the letter supposedly came from The Herald, and that what was published on the day was all they had – a screenshot of the supposed text, but none of the metadata that would be required to back it up.

        • Chooky

          +100 CR….and John Campbell did much to show up Key

          …this is why I believe Joe Trinder…because Campbell is the only television msm NZ journalist with the guts to expose Key’s lies

          …. the writing was probably on the wall for Campbell when he did that investigative journalism series into the lies and deceptions and timelines on John Key’s meetings with US spy masters and others with vested interests in spying on New Zealanders…..also exposed his appointment of his friend Fletcher as head of the GCSB


          …all the more reason why the Campbell Live Show should remain…it is a quintessential NZ programme with unflinching investigative journalism on the big issues facing New Zealand eg. TPPA and Zero contracts ….and smaller items of individual justice and interest (eg. it includes solo parents, children , surfing grannies, animals like kittens and chooks)

          If Campbell is not around to examine the big issues facing New Zealand and New Zealanders….and if necessary investigate Key on television…. who is?..we no longer have the television guardians of democracy

      • Murray Rawshark 2.3.2

        We no longer have a society where evidence is put under scrutiny. We have a society where FJK says “the witness is a known lefty conspiracy theorist”, some lefties add “and he’s a misogynist”, three vegans say “eating meat is disgusting” and the evidence is forgotten. Due to a compliant media and an undemanding electorate, Dotcom’s evidence was never scrutinised.

        That is not to say it couldn’t have been presented in a more effective manner.

        • Colonial Rawshark

          Casting pearls before swine.

        • veutoviper

          Well put, Murray.

          Great to see you back, kia kaha. Some people are full of their own self-importance (not you!); but enough said.

          [Totally off topic, but wondered whether next Monday you would be in the vicinity of the MoJ building you visited on 19 February, where you saw a ‘famous person’. According to this NBR article on 19 March, remand was extended until 20 April – which usually means the date of the next scheduled court hearing ….

          http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/prominent-new-zealander-name-suppression-extended-vy-170285 ]

          • Murray Rawshark

            Thanks veuto. Unfortunately I will not be in Whangarei next Monday. I have my monthly hospital appointment in Brisbane.

            • veutoviper

              Though I would mention next Monday as a possibility …. Will keep a close check on certain journalists’ Twitter feeds – those who appear to be the ones attending certain court hearings, including Victoria Young of NBR – and report here on TS if I hear anything. (Provided I don’t get banned in the meantime. My anger on a certain Sunday morning a few weeks ago was such that I had to hold back from commenting here for quite some time – and not comment on a certain subject/person as I would not have held back and would most certainly have been banned.)

              On your monthly trips to Brisbane, don’t want to ask details but all the very best. I have family in Brisbane, some of whom have worked in various specialist (eg cancer) hospitals there and others who have had treatment in these, and I know that they are very good. Way better than here. So I am really pleased that you are able to get there. Again, kia kaha.

              • Murray Rawshark

                Thanks. My clinic is just routine. I had a liver transplant last year and get looked at once a month. No real problems so far. As you say, healthcare in the Brisbane public hospitals is very good. It was put in place by people like us, fighting for a better world, and has not yet been attacked and dismantled as much as in Aotearoa. Governments would love to, but Australians are very attached to their medical system.

                • rawshark-yeshe

                  @murray .. travel well and stay safe .. we have great need of you and your insightful (and sometimes inciteful) posts ! 😀

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    Thanks. I don’t actually mean to be inciteful but one of my colleagues once suggested that if I developed Tourette’s, nobody would notice. My approach fits well with my profession as a physicist, where we ruthlessly criticise each other’s work, with very few taking it personally. Politics is much harder and more complex.

    • Karen 2.4

      +1 Anne
      This sort of unsubstantiated claim does a lot of damage to the left.

      • weka 2.4.1

        I was also disappointed by KDC’s claim and then nothing. Would love to know if he gets PR advice or its all down to him.

      • fisiani 2.4.2

        the Left just constantly make up shit in order to cry wolf to scare the people. The people know it’s just shit so ignore it.
        A Mana spokesman said Blah Blah Blah…..

    • Clemgeopin 2.5

      “He went on to say he had since received an apology from the SIS Director, Rebecca Kitteridge”

      Do you have a link? I haven’t read that claim. If the report is true, a journalist should ask Rebecca Kitteridge about it.

      • Anne 2.5.1

        It was a twitter comment I saw somewhere online. I don’t do twitter so would have no idea how to retrieve it. I’m sure I read it correctly because I was taken aback by the claim and had doubts about it’s veracity.

      • freedom 2.5.2

        I think this might be the comment Anne is referring to

        View post on imgur.com

        • Clemgeopin

          Thanks freedom.

          Those statements by the spies are so disgusting. These are the types of bastards that are in charge of our intelligence/security agencies!

          It is good on the SIS chief (Rebecca Kitteridge ?) to have sent Kim Dot Com an apology letter on behalf of those despicable people. But that is not enough. She should sack all those in her spy agency who were part of that evil/disgraceful/criminal conversation. Has she sacked them or jailed them? Where the hell are our MPs and journalists not to have demanded more information and action from her and the government?

          • Anne

            Problem is Clemgeopin he didn’t put up any evidence and until he does no-one is going to touch it with a barge pole. Setting aside the idiot rwnjs on this site who make irrational demands for evidence on mere opinions, you can’t make claims of this nature without producing something to back it up. Dotcom has not done so.

            • Clemgeopin

              True Anne, but I suspect that as KDC is primarily fighting a very serious legal battle, he is probably taking counsel and may have been advised not to reveal everything at this stage.

    • Rosie 2.6

      +1 Anne. One could easily speculate about the degree of fishiness around political intervention in eyeing up John Campbell and the team for the axe, however I agree some solid evidence is necessary to make a claim to that effect, and to show some legitimacy on the behalf of the person who claims it.

      ” The decision was made by the National party caucus with strong influence from former radio works CEO MP Steven Joyce.”

      This is quite a radical statement. You can’t put anything past Key and Joyce, they are so crooked but to really pin it on them you need to adopt Hagar like skills and produce the proof.

      I’d love to see that proof.

      • Clemgeopin 2.6.1

        In the many comments below the article, the writer/News Editor, Joe Trinder says, this:

        “I’m comfortable with the public being skeptical because I haven’t revealed my source. Here is what won’t happen –John Key’s lawyers won’t demand I repeal the article on defamation because they know a New Zealander out there that can testify to hearing the comment”

        Quite intriguing, isn’t it!

        Read all the comments here:

        • Clemgeopin

          In reply to a post, ‘How can you expect us to believe you, when one of your last “articles” was a complete lie, stating that Burger King had pulled all their advertising from Media Works when in actual fact they haven’t done that at all?’

          He says this:

          “Burger King decided to resume its advertising with Mediaworks due to my article that’s good –the letter Burger King sent to Campbell live and Mark Weldon that didn’t express that sentiment. Maybe Burger King would be willing to publicly release the email and the response and prove me wrong.

          Not a light claim! A very challenging/gutsy one!

          Pretty interesting/explosive/intriguing, isn’t it!

          • TheContrarian

            No it’s not challenging or gutsy, it’s stupid and bullshit. Joe obviously didn’t think this through because how could BK release the email showing he was wrong – there’d be no email to release. Basically he is saying BK could prove my claim they sent me an email wrong by….releasing the email they never sent me.

            Doesn’t make any fucking sense.

            • Clemgeopin

              Well, they could state that they did not send any such email and take defamation action?

              • Why bother with that? People make all sorts of weird claims about public and commercial figures all the time and no-one bats an eyelid because most of the time it is complete crap. If this was in a major newspaper then maybe but this is on a blog. I bet, if BK or Key are even aware of it it would be met with a collective “meh”.

                You don’t really think that because no-one has made a defamation claim it makes it true… Seriously?

                • Clemgeopin

                  I am not saying they are true, but are quite serious allegations and character assassinations. So denial and defamation is appropriate.

                  • Some guy ranting some shit on a blog and being met mostly with derision would hardly rate on anyone’s radar. A major newspaper with a readership in the 100’s of thousands yeah, Joe Trinder getting savaged for what is obviously bullshit on a blog related to a mostly, publicaly anyway, discredited political party? Yeah, na.

                    In fact why sue for defamation? It’s only Trinders character getting defamed here.

        • Rosie

          Hi Clemgeopin. I hadn’t read that comment. Fair enough and good point about the defamation. Key and Co wrote off the entire contents of Dirty Politics without feeling the need to sue anyone for defamation – they knew it was true even though they denied everything.

          I still don’t really see the need to publish such a claim though, especially if it’s not going anywhere. It won’t contribute anything of use to the fight to save Campbell Live. I’d love to be proved wrong.

    • weka 2.7

      I can see it both ways. The more privileged are going to take the line that such allegations do more harm than good, because we are still in positions to value ethics and principles over political reality. But I suspect that Mana understand many people have nothing less to lose (it’s a pity that I’m now thinking of Pat O’Dea’s mess as a spokesperson because you still need credibility).

      It reminds me of strategy talked about in feminist circles on the past where women who had been sexually assaulted and had no other recourse for justice could name their attacker publicly. Defamation law requires the attacker to then take them to court and thus risk exposure.

  3. Well, this is rubbish, isn’t it? I’m reminded about the discussion here on the weekend about corruption. The takeaway from that chat is that whenever the left makes overblown and unprovable allegations like this, we look weak and it makes the right stronger.

    On the up side, it’s mana, so it won’t go far. Hopefully no further than a snide post on Yawnz or the other right wing blogs. Unless Weldon sues for defamation, of course.

    • Lanthanide 3.1


      Shearer’s reign at the helm of Labour seemed particularly tainted by this, and Goff before him wasn’t much better. Don’t think it was too bad with Cunliffe, but with Little there’s been pretty much none.

      • Colonial Rawshark 3.1.1

        In other words, the way to get elected in this country is to stick with the confines of the approved status quo orthodoxy, even if that orthodoxy is driving the nation off a cliff.

    • “so it won’t go far”

      ummm it has already been put up on the most popular left wing blog – I know blame Mana it must be their fault – bloody need to get rid of those left wing bastards eh

      • weka 3.2.1


      • I provided the context in my comment, marty. mana currently have a limited circle of influence, because they aren’t in parliament. Therefore, I hope any damage this fluff causes is limited. So far, apart from this post and some corrective chat on other social media, there’s nothing. Good. That’s all I’m saying.

    • Murray Rawshark 3.3

      I would say that every time you post the right gets stronger. Blip’s list showed plenty of cases of corruption, just within ngati poaka.

    • weka 3.4

      “Hopefully no further than a snide post on Yawnz”

      It’s up now. Here’s the donotlink http://www.donotlink.com/ek5k Haven’t read it though 😉

  4. Colonial Rawshark 4

    If there was real evidence, it should have been gotten into Winston Peters hands for a proper revealing!

    • rawshark-yeshe 4.1

      There is still time CR, and maybe best raised in the House under protection ? My hope anyway !

      • Lanthanide 4.1.1

        If it has to be raised in the house for ‘protection’ then it must be pretty flimsy evidence.

        • rawshark-yeshe

          Not necessarily. Protection to make the claim of outright corruption by Key and have a proper means to examine it .. that kind of ‘protection’.

          • Lanthanide

            If it is raised outside parliament, because of its serious nature, it would be challenged. If it were not challenged, that would tell you everything you need to know.

            • rawshark-yeshe

              Well, it is raised outside of Parliament .. let’s see if it’s challenged or not. And please, what do you mean by your last sentence ? It’s not quite clear to me … thx Lanth.

              • Lanthanide

                If it were raised outside Parliament by someone prominent such as Winston Peters, I mean.

    • weka 4.2

      Yeah Peters has never made claims that later weren’t validated 😉

      • rawshark-yeshe 4.2.1

        And neither has Mana, which is where the post begins.

        • weka

          Are you saying Peters and Mans are as bad as each other?

          • rawshark-yeshe

            No. Exactly the opposite. I believe in them both to come through for us on matters like this. Dammit, somebody has to.

            • Lanthanide

              weka was being sarcastic, hence the winky smile.

              Winston has frequently said things that turned out not to be true. Like the supposed sale of Huka Lodge to the chinese.

            • weka

              I’m willing to believe Trinder on this, or the possibility it’s true. But Peters has often puffed himself up with claims that come to nothing. Other times he delivers. That’s Peters, always unreliable because it’s a game. Just responding to CV’s idea that this would have been better handled by Peters.

              • rawshark-yeshe

                I just so want it to be proven Weka ! We all know it’s true in essence that Key is gunning for Campbell Live, but oh, if proof exists ? I’ll keep hoping and willing to believe.

    • Lanthanide 4.3

      Actually, this would be the coup-de-grace for Campbell to keep his show on the air…

  5. Lanthanide 5

    I feel like this would be better suited as a comment in Open Mike until such time as evidence was given to back it up.

    • Skinny 5.1

      Looks suspect to me. Put up or shut up, hearsay evidence is hardly proof. Looks like huff & puff stuff to me.

  6. Maui 6

    Joe Trinder defends his comments on facebook here: http://postimg.org/image/r6y1lrkyl/

    • weka 6.1

      They’re on the mana news page too I think. The bit I think people are missing is he isn’t after credibility. When you take that into account, it makes more sense. This is guerrilla warfare not nation state rules of engagement.

      • Maui 6.1.1

        Oh I didn’t see those, interesting point. I wonder if this sort of message just strengthens Mana voters hatred of the Government rather than being a good way of attracting new voters…

    • rawshark-yeshe 6.2

      and very badly, which is a great shame.

      • BassGuy 6.2.1

        Agreed. It’s something I would like to believe but until any evidence has come out, it’s all just too easy to dismiss.

  7. the pigman 7


    Even worse when you read Joe’s article and his spirited defense…

  8. TheContrarian 8

    “Mana News doesn’t have to substantiate our reveal it sourceswe don’t write balanced articles. We expose the national governments corruption the onus is on the media to do its job and prove us wrong.”

    – Joe in the comments section

    I’m now almost entirely convinced this is complete bullshit. That sort of answer reeks of “I/we/someone just made this up”. Like when Bomber claimed The Daily Blog was hacked by the government he got all huffy and nasty when queried. Answers of that sort scream bullshit. Shifting of the Burden of Proof is a tell-tale sign of complete shit being spun

    • weka 8.1

      Citation needed

        • weka

          Your claims about Bomber, TDB etc. There was a certain irony to your assertions all things considered.

          • TheContrarian

            I’ll be more than happy to provide links but I’m on my dying phone in a hotel with limited ability right now. If you can wait until tomorrow I can give you the links you asked for.

            • weka


              • Tomorrow it is.

                But if I said “you prove me wrong, I don’t have to show you evidence” I’m sure you’d be a little less accepting.

              • Rosie

                It’s true weka. I was still around on the DTB site when that happened, when the site went down. It was at the time of the talk on the TCIS bill that DTB hosted (I attended the Wgtn talk).

                Probably would have been around August 2013. I kind of believed him at the time, but then I changed my mind, as his blowharderey became increasingly apparent to me.

                It’s not to say that strange things don’t happen to people that speak out against the government or dare to question it’s direction, simply that Martyn Bradbury believed he was a victim of a government conspiracy to silence him, and I think his ego got a little inflated at the thought being such an important figure that the government would seek him out especially.

                • weka

                  Sure Rosie, I have no problem with that. I was more pointing out the irony of TC making a statement about Bomber and putting a fair amount of spin on it from his own negative feelins about Bomber and using that to come to the conclusion that Trinder is full of shit, as if the two things have any relationship other than TC’s feelings.

                  I have not idea if Trinder is telling the truth, making shit up, or something in between. I feel uncomfortable with how he’s done this, for similar reasons to most people here. I also am curious about the idea that he doesn’t care about credibility and what that might mean. That’s way more interesting to me than assertions that he’s lying when there is no evidence for that other than that he refuses to provide evidence 😉

                  Pretty interesting watching people’s reactions.

                  • TheContrarian

                    Ahhhh, no. Bomber being full of shit in no way influenced my coming to the conclusion of Trinder being full of shit. Where the two share commonality is the refusal to substantiate their claims – that’s it.

                    I don’t know how you came to the conclusion that i was “using that to come to the conclusion that Trinder is full of shit…”

                    • weka

                      Probably because that’s what it looked like, and because you have no evidence that lack of presentation of evidence = being full of shit, and that in the case of Bomber it looks to be more about your hatred of him so how is that useful?

                      I’m happy to stand corrected that you weren’t making any other connection.

                    • TheContrarian

                      Bomber aside it’s not just the lack of evidence – it reversal of the burden of proof, the deleting of comments , bold assertions being stated as fact, the fact that if this was an overheard phone conversation the eavesdropper would have no idea who Key was talking to or about what, the weird “BK should release the email they didn’t send to prove they didn’t send it” statement and the unlikeliness Key would need to direct anyone to fire Campbell when one of his acolytes could just do it for him (which may actually be what happened).

                      It all speaks, on the balance of probabilities, to being being a steaming pile of horse shit.

                      But hey, if Trinder wants to man up and provide evidence, I’d be more than happy to be wrong.

                    • weka

                      “it reversal of the burden of proof”

                      Unless he doesn’t care about credibility and is doing this for other reasons.

                      “the deleting of comments”

                      Did you check that? I thought it too, but then I could see the comment from the guy who claimed that.

                      I don’t actually care if bloggers delete comments. ‘my blog my rules’. Women bloggers routinely have to remove comments from their blogs, so it’s normal to me. It’s not an inherent sign of someone being a bullshitter.

                      “bold assertions being stated as fact”

                      Yeah, kind of like TRP’s post recently with a rumour in it. He got a somewhat different reception though.

                      “the fact that if this was an overheard phone conversation the eavesdropper would have no idea who Key was talking to or about what”

                      That’s not true, use your imagination and bear in mind we’re not talking about court of law levels of evidence here.

                      “the weird “BK should release the email they didn’t send to prove they didn’t send it” statement”


                      “and the unlikeliness Key would need to direct anyone to fire Campbell when one of his acolytes could just do it for him (which may actually be what happened).”

                      It wouldn’t be the first time Key’s made a mistake.

                      What we’re disagreeing on here is not whether Trinder made it up, but whether your assumptions and conclusions are reasonable.

                    • TheContrarian

                      I’m not interested in relitigating all this. If you wanna believe him, not believe him, think my reasoning is unsound or whatever, go for your life.

                      I’ve stated my position and you yours. I think we can safely leave it there. There’s no real need to go into the minutia. You disagree with my conclusions and rationale and I am happy to leave it at that – I don’t really have the time to go into it any further.

                    • weka

                      Sure, but you’re the one that just made a bunch of assertions that I then critiqued and now you have no response? This is exactly what I am talking about.

                    • TheContrarian

                      I do have a response – I don’t have time for this. Draw whatever conclusions you like

                    • Skinny

                      “That’s not true, use your imagination and bear in mind we’re not talking about court of law levels of evidence here.”

                      Without proof which this clown from Mana refuses to supply it is sheer theatre. It is simply not worth bothering having a trip to fantasy island over.

                  • Rosie

                    Hi weka.

                    Got it. I was also wondering what the pathway was between TC’s reaction to Trinder’s claim of knowing there was a statement from the PM “I want that left wing bastard gone” and Martyn Bradbury’s reaction to his site going down, apart from the obvious theme of “Key government out to get dissenters” (which by the way, I agree with you that is completely plausible given the track record).

                    Good to see TC cleared that up when he said

                    “Ahhhh, no. Bomber being full of shit in no way influenced my coming to the conclusion of Trinder being full of shit. Where the two share commonality is the refusal to substantiate their claims – that’s it.”

                    That aside, a good protest response to Key’s alleged statement if we ever had a leg to stand on with it, would be “We want that right wing bastard PM gone”.

                • weka

                  Thanks, and thanks for proving my point.

                  “I’m now almost entirely convinced this is complete bullshit. That sort of answer reeks of “I/we/someone just made this up”. Like when Bomber claimed The Daily Blog was hacked by the government he got all huffy and nasty when queried. Answers of that sort scream bullshit. Shifting of the Burden of Proof is a tell-tale sign of complete shit being spun”

                  See, when I read the post and comments what I see is a relatively neutral announcement of a hack of the site (a courtesy I would have thought), a claim that the hack was sophisticated, and a single comment at the end wondering if this came from someone in the employ of the govt.

                  Given Bomber’s political activities and connections with radicals, and given DP and the level of corruption of this govt, I don’t see how that’s implausible.

                  I also don’t see him getting huffy and nasty when queried, I see him getting huffy and scathing and refusing to do what you want when questioned by two people that hate on him publicly.

                  In other words, your characterisation of him looks like it’s driven by the fact that you’ve fallen out with him and don’t like him, which really has nothing to do with the plausibility of his post (or Trinder’s).

                  Not liking someone isn’t evidence of their bullshit. You are of course entitled to your opinion about Bomber (and it’s shared by quite a few people), but it still doesn’t relate to the actual issue.

  9. Bill 9

    That’s not an ‘interesting claim’ at all. Unless sources are in the pipeline, that piece is nothing but thoughtless fucking bullshit.

    For the writer of the article (Joe 4 hours ago) to contend that Mana News don’t have to substantiate what they report as fact, because it’s up to the media to prove them wrong, is bordering on looped out and gone bysey-byes.

    Not to be outdone by mere mods and authors, commenters writing that people have no right to demand verification because those seeking verification happily swallow government lines ‘hook, line and sinker’, are tiny voices trying to get back to us from over some distant horizon of just plain old ‘gone’.

    Seems the “Cliff. Front runners. Fast followers.” comment I submitted on the “Clinton running for President’ post would have better off placed here.

  10. emergency mike 10

    Meh, maybe it’s true, but without evidence ‘I got a mate who says he heard John Key say blah’ is simply rumour mongering a la Cameron Slater.

  11. Upnorth 11

    Come on guys – Mana news have said in ther comment column they dont need to prove anything – My mother is a supermodel and only 36.

    Lets get real here – show the details then it is a story – just saying we “dont have to prove it” is not a good start for a conversation.

  12. Plan B 12

    I would encourage people to read the Chris Trotter article:
    It pretty much explains everything.
    Many people here are looking for truths, and are worried that some comments from the left cannot be proved. meanwhile the new world we live in is no longer interested in truth, is unconcerned about being found out, maybe JK and his team understand this new world in the same way that Surkov does and are acting in the same way?

  13. millsy 13

    Not suprising. I have no doubt he would have said that but as said above, no proof.

    • Anne 13.1

      Agreed. I bet he said it more than once. But you have to serve up something akin to evidence.

  14. Ecosse_Maidy 14

    We are proud to announce that John Campbells replacement,,,will be a 24 hour Celebrity Big Brother John Keys Show…lets give it up for John

  15. Ecosse_Maidy 15

    You think it bad we are talking Campbell Live off air? You wait till we can Bananas In Pyjamas & Country Calanders, you plebs!!!!

  16. PROOF, show. me. the. proof, now!!! show me the proof now!!! show it to me!!! meanwhile all the proof for a million lies and distortions are in BliPs list and what has happened – nowt and why??? – get that and the left might get somewhere in the next election.

    Might be true, sounds trueish, hope it’s true, but proof – nah that’s not how the game works anymore.

    • Bill 16.1

      Not entirely sure where you’re coming from marty.

      Yes, it’s believable that JK could have said he ‘wanted the bastard gone’ and it’s believable that political machinations are at the root of Campbell being axed.

      But there are ways to put unverified but believable stuff out there and ways to put unverified but believable stuff out there; ways that avoid an invite to some post modernist hell hole, where everything is truth and/or lies depending on the time of day and what truth you want to build…where facts are unnecessary, where no verification or thought is required and where such ‘niceties’ sink below the fetid surface of a world comprising of nowt but a churning of senseless bullshit.

      • weka 16.1.1

        If it’s true that he can’t reveal his sources, do you think there is a way to put the information out there that is different to what he did?

        • Bill

          Many ways.

          One way is satire.

          Another is to use qualifiers (eg, apparently or, it’s my understanding that etc) in the stead of bald assertion.

          Or he could have more or less written exactly what he did if he’d prefaced the whole pile of shite with a ‘Would you believe…?’

          Meanwhile, the first ‘source’ is sitting at the level of ‘a man with a dug in the pub’.

          Second source – an email where he claims to know the recipients and sender. Produce it, with the sender’s name redacted if need be…

          Now, I’m fine that he doesn’t want credibility. Not fine that he didn’t reflect on how his bullshit (assuming at this point there is no drip feed and reveal at play) will be used to discredit other more substantial claims coming from the broader left in the future.

          • weka

            thanks, that’s helpful. So largely it’s about how he’s done this rather than him doing it without producing evidence per se (reminds me of TRP’s recent rumourmongering post).

            I’m not so sure about the last sentence. As I’ve said to McFlock, I’m not sure that Mana owe the broader left much. I don’t agree with the approach that Trinder has taken, but I’m also willing to look further at why he might be using that approach.

            • Skinny

              Mana was a one tricky pony that failed to listen to the wise head in Sue Bradford. Hone won’t ever get back into parliament and he knows it.

            • Bill

              No, it’s not about how he’s done this. If he’d done any of the above, he wouldn’t have been doing what he’s done.

              And yes, it’s reminiscent of trp’s post. Kind of. Except he didn’t make any bold claims or report anything that would reasonably be treated as rumour as fact.

              • weka

                “No, it’s not about how he’s done this. If he’d done any of the above, he wouldn’t have been doing what he’s done.”

                Sorry, I can’t make any sense of that. Obviously if he’d done things differently he’d have done things differently.

                Many people here are saying that it’s the fact that he won’t/can’t produce evidence that is the problem. I thought you were saying that he could have for instance used qualifiers and this would mean he wasn’t leaving himself (and others) open to being undermined.

                The comparison I was drawing with TRP’s post was the absence of evidence.

                • Bill

                  To clarify. If he’d written (say) satire he simply would not have been presenting facts. That’s not ‘doing things differently’. It’s doing something completely different.

                  If he had presented his shit as something other than hard and fast fact with none of the usual stuff that goes with hard and fast facts – eg, some fucking evidence! – then he wouldn’t have to field any calls for evidence to be produced, would he?

                  TRP didn’t need evidence to back up facts because TRP was writing about rumour and speculation and presenting it as such.

            • te reo putake

              There are a couple of differences between my April Fools Day post and this situation, weka.

              Firstly, I made it clear it was unsubstantiated rumours I was posting on. I didn’t claim they were true. And I don’t represent anyone other than myself.

              However, Trinder is the news editor at mana news. He is authorised to speak for the mana party. He is claiming his story is true, but is refusing to back up his claim.

              I’m merely an opinion piece writer on broad based political blog. Trinder is an official of a political party, responsible for its media output. I would have thought a grasp of both journalistic methods and ethics would have been desirable in the role of news editor, but apparently not:

              “We care little for reputation or working to a journalist’s code of ethics we bend the rules. We don’t write balanced fair articles … ”

              So, he’s leaving open the possibility that he is just straight out lying.

              • weka

                The comparison was simply around the absence of evidence, which seems to be a big sticking point for a number of people.

                Your larger comment is another example of the expectation that Mana and Mana News should behave in certain collectively sanctioned ways. Why is that?

                Edit, Trinder’s statement on being a blogger not a journo /i-want-that-left-wing-bastard-gone/#comment-999911

                • Why is that?

                  To avoid looking like tossers, mainly.

                  As I’ve said elsewhere, these feeble attacks simply strengthen the right. And any time the left find something of substance, the right can just roll their eyes and mumble ‘HFee, Dotcom, Trinder, blah, blah, blah …’

                  • weka

                    “To avoid looking like tossers, mainly.”

                    That’s not concern for Mana though right? It’s about protecting the downtrodden left. So again, why should Mana be concerned about that?

                    • Why should mana be concerned? I thought mana was supposed to be part of the left, but if they’re not, well, fuck ’em.

                    • weka

                      I think it’s the other way round TRP, fuck them unless they do what we want the way we want it done. And yeah, let’s fuck the Mana constituency while we’re at it and if they don’t like it they can be represented by Labour 🙄

                    • The ‘mana constituency’, at least the northern portion of it, actually voted to be represented by Labour at the last election, weka.

                      I think this piece in mana news may just be the final twitches of a dying beast. When a party is that irrelevant that they have to resort to making shit up and saying ‘so what, the rules don’t apply to us, maaan’ then they’re dog tucker. But, until they finally wind up, I suppose they will continue to do small harms to the wider left movement with stunts such as this article.

                    • weka

                      I was thinking of the non-vote, but anyway.

                      You may be right, it may be the dying twitches. But what concerns me is the attitudinal stuff in this thread that says that Mana should be x, y, z when really most of us here know jack shit, and what that means in the longer term for relationships between the left and the Mana Movement. On the other hand, that’s probably just a more visible manifestation of what’s always been 🙁

                      (I also can’t believe I am having to advocate on this blog for people with literacy issues having the right to write).

                    • I’ve made another comment below about the literacy thing, but I’m with you on it. I’ve spent a good part of my working life translating legalese into plain English for working people. I wouldn’t have lasted a day if I’d patronised their educational failings or tried to be smug about the fancy words I knew that they didn’t. The same should apply here, in my opinion. Focus on the ideas, not the typos.

                    • weka

                      +1 thanks.

                • Bill

                  1. I hear that some people are saying that fairies exist.

                  2. Fairies exist.

                  Not really hard to spot how 1 is completely different to 2, or to understand that 1 requires no evidence for fairy existence whatsoever but that 2 does.

                  TRP wrote something akin to 1.

                  Trinder has written something akin to 2.

                  It seems Trinder reckons it’s fine for political info to be presented as 2 … but for it to wrapped in the expectations attached to 1. That, in my book, makes Trinder either a drooling loon or a loon screaming off in the distance.

                  If he had written a smart piece pointing to the power of belief over the power of info, I wouldn’t be viewing him as a drooling loon, hopefully fading into the distance. But he didn’t do that.

                  • weka

                    I don’t have a problem with you viewing him as a loon. He probably thinks the same of many here.

                    “Trinder has written something akin to 2.”

                    Except I assume you don’t believe in fairies. It changes if Trinder is telling the truth.

                    1. I hear that some people are saying that Key tried to get JC fired.

                    2. Key tried to get JC fired.

                    • Bill

                      Given that my comment referred to expectations around factual claims and rumours, any thoughts I have around the existence of fairies is utterly fucking irrelevant to the point being made.

                      Couching it in terms of JK and JC makes not one iota of difference to that point.

                    • weka

                      You version is based on an absolute falsehood, mines based on something that may or may not be true but is certainly possible. All the difference in the world.

                      (I’m guessing the main difference is you think Trinder is lying, whereas I have no idea if he is).

      • marty mars 16.1.2

        “where no verification or thought is required and where such ‘niceties’ sink below the fetid surface of a world comprising of nowt but a churning of senseless bullshit.”

        good description of the current truths put to us by MSM and politicians.

        the truth and proof are slippery tuna wiggling in water

        I saw the article and decided early on not to link to it in OM because I felt it had holes and would raise more questions than it answered – and it has – but I support Joe and what he has done.

        • Bill

          good description of the current truths put to us by MSM and politicians

          At which point, does one join in with the same meaningless bullshit, bearing in mind that there are some very loud voices out there that will drown you out in a flash? Or does one treat them with the contempt and derision they deserve while seeking to pull the bastards to account or reveal them?

          • marty mars

            Of course I agree with you – it’s just that if they ignore the contempt and derision and just keep doing what they do – when do we say enough!, when do we break them out of their complacency and make them see us. I totally agree that we want to, “pull the bastards to account”, totally agree.

    • miravox 16.2

      “but proof – nah that’s not how the game works anymore.”
      Well, not for statements from the Nact & Co. If it’s been said it must be true for stuff they put out.

      The expectations of the left are somewhat higher.

      • marty mars 16.2.1

        hmmm well I’ve heard the parties of the left and right lie and bullshit their way right through the system over the years. The expectations may be true of the left, maybe that’s why we are continually disappointed by the reality.

        • miravox

          I don’t disagree Marty.

          I think the public treat the left much more harshly when it’s caught it a lie. I think they expect as much from the right and in a perverse way, admire the gall. At least that appears to be the way things are in the circles I move in.

    • dave 16.3

      yeah all the John key lies from the election all with proof dirty politics all proven lolololo if mana news provided proof they would still be in full denial mode

  17. Neil 17

    If it is true, it will be truly explosive, given Keys past history of saying things when he doesn’t think anyone is listening, it could well be true. I wouldn’t put it past Key to say something like this, you’ve only got to look at how he reacted to Hagar’s book, calling him a screaming left wing conspirator.
    It would need some pretty solid evidence to back it up.
    I guess we will just have to wait & see how it plays out.

  18. Aaron 18

    The thing with this is that you don’t need a direct conspiracy to make things happen. All it takes is for Key sympathiser to get into a position of power at Mediaworks and the pressure starts to go on – What’s actually surprising is that it’s taken this long for it to happen.

    Probably Mike Hosking proving you can make a success of the 7pm slot while delivering zero percent real journalism has also made it easier for TV3 to think they could try something else as well.

    As for why every else making comments on this thread has such a definite view on this matter I can only guess – none of us can no anything for sure at this stage.

  19. dave 19

    its more than likely true from what we know from dirty politics ,it tick all the boxes for abuse of power corruption of the highest order the pm haveing a journalist fired for doing his job, i hope the opposition will question key and iam sure Campbell’s lawyers will take an interest.
    didn’t muldoon have journalist fired?

    • I would say it is highly unlikely based upon what we know of dirty politics. Key was the squeaky clean guy, getting underlings to do his dirty work. Key wouldn’t be on the phone asking for people to be fired. All he needs do is put his sympathisers in positions of power and let them do what they do naturally – Key wouldn’t have to do shit.

      Besides which “it is likely to be true” is completely different from the claim Joe is making who insists it is true and he doesn’t need to prove rather his detectors need to disprove it….which is stupid and backwards

  20. Murray Rawshark 20

    I think Joe Trinder should learn to write satire. This story, which I’m dubious about, could have been told far more effectively, and without any of the distractions about sources and truth. At the end of the day and when the race is run and all that stuff, what the hell does it matter anyway? FJK has already done far worse on many occasions. Being possibly innocent of this one doesn’t turn him into a good bloke, but some people are loving the chance to attack Mana. Again.

    • It’s not MANA that people should be attacking, it’s this dope Joe and his “na uh, you have to disprove me!” gibberish.

    • marty mars 20.2

      + 1

      yep key lies, lies and lies again and even when it is on the news and everyone is jumping and pumping – nothing, key slides out. This particular story is pure key – it smells for sure but the focus of some goes onto Mana – same as it ever was.

      • McFlock 20.2.1

        The tories slide out unchallenged from almost every lie.
        People on the left get challenged on every verifiable, provable truth we utter.

        This is one of the basic principles of whenever the disenfranchised fight the privileged, be it classwarfare or “identity politics”.

        So at best we have an apparent lefty refusing to provide evidence for a truth they uttered. At worst Trinder forgot the line about looking from pig to man and man to pig and not being able to tell the difference.

        If it’s true, tories will call it a lie. If it’s a lie, the tories will be more believable when they call it a lie. And the rest of us get dragged down by association – if Mana News get a decent scoop on wrongdoing by the tories, the first line the tories will defend themselves with will be “these are the people who previously toldsuch horrible lies and claimed to have proof”. Just like they do with KDC’s “moment of truth”.

        Thanks, Mana News /sarc

        • weka

          And how is it that Mana owe the left something at this point?

          • McFlock

            Never said they did.
            Just that the tories will damn (as complicit in a lie) anyone on the left who can be vaguely associated with Mana News.

            And the msm will unquestioningly report the tory line.

            • weka

              So? You’d have made more sense without the /sarc. Either it matters what Mana News does, or it doesn’t. Which is it?

              • McFlock

                Yes, it matters.
                No, that doesn’t mean Mana “owe the left something”.

                Someone leaving a turd on my doorstep doesn’t me they owe me a damned thing.

                • weka

                  And again, there’s the idea that Mana News has done something to you (or the left).

                  • McFlock

                    They have done something that has affected the left by providing ammunition for the tories. They don’t exist in their own isolated universe.

                    • weka

                      Of course, but does the irony really escape you of the ‘left’ expecting better behaviour of Mana after what happened at the last election?

                    • McFlock

                      What happened, according to you?

                      Especially as winning an election apparently might not be an objective of Mana?

                    • weka

                      “Especially as winning an election apparently might not be an objective of Mana?”

                      According to you.

                      And you know very well what I’m referring to about last election.

                      Are we at the disingenuous stage of the conversation then and don’t need to continure? I’m happy to be explaining my thinking, but can’t be bothered with the sarc and smartarsery when people appear to need to be communicating better not worse.

                    • McFlock

                      “Especially as winning an election apparently might not be an objective of Mana?”

                      According to you.

                      No, according to you.

                      No, I don’t know exactly what you’re referring to. Some people here reckon Davis ran an effective campaign. Some mana folk seem to think winning the seat involved some sort of dirty trick, or that Hone deserved everyone else on the left and Labour in particular to just stand aside.

                      Frankly, I don’t know of anything that struck me as a betrayal. Politics involves losing elections – I’ve had my own small experience of that. It hurts, but you get up and get over it. If you know of an instance of actual sabotage of mana by the left, rather than competition on an even keel, maybe then I’d see why they should feel hard done by, and therefore why they’d be happy to make life difficult for everyone else.

                    • weka

                      That link doesn’t show me saying that Mana don’t want to win elections. Like I said, you’re the one running that line.

                      No, I don’t know exactly what you’re referring to. Some people here reckon Davis ran an effective campaign. Some mana folk seem to think winning the seat involved some sort of dirty trick, or that Hone deserved everyone else on the left and Labour in particular to just stand aside.

                      Frankly, I don’t know of anything that struck me as a betrayal. Politics involves losing elections – I’ve had my own small experience of that. It hurts, but you get up and get over it. If you know of an instance of actual sabotage of mana by the left, rather than competition on an even keel, maybe then I’d see why they should feel hard done by, and therefore why they’d be happy to make life difficult for everyone else.

                      Right, but you do know how some Mana people feel about that right?

                      Reasons I wouldn’t call it an even keel (assuming you mean level playing field?),

                      Mana are representing some of the poorest people in the country. That’s going to affect things throughout the organisation despite KDC’s injection of cash for a relatively short period of time (and do we even know what it was?).

                      The mistreatment of Māori voters at booths.

                      Racism, which just make everything that much harder.

                      Racism in the MSM, who still largely don’t know how to report Māori news or current affairs.

                      I don’t see democracy as the being the people with the best PR skills get to win. I see it as an attempt to represent all people. The left should be working towards that, not scrabbling for the biggest piece of the pie at the expense of others.

                      “therefore why they’d be happy to make life difficult for everyone else.”

                      That’s your interpretation. I can see how some in Mana might not feel an obligation to play the game the way the rest of the left want, but that’s doesn’t follow that they’re happy to make things difficult for everyone else.

                    • McFlock

                      That link was you saying that my line about politics being about growing support might not be correct from Mana’s perspective. If a party cannot get elected, but does not wish to grow support and prefers to just preach to the converted, how can they have an objective of getting elected?

                      As for the rest:
                      Davis had an advantage over Harawira because poverty in TTT, racism, and the MSM?

                      How is that the fault of the other left wing parties, even if it’s true?

        • marty mars

          your queensbury rules don’t apply when only one side follows them

          and all these lines the tories will use – they already use them!!! They don’t need “these are the people who previously…” because they lie continuously anyway and even when caught they lie to get out of it. So many tmes the left have thought ‘this is the one that will get them’ and every time nah slide away time.

          oh look Mana aren’t in Parliament and they will still lose the next election for the left ffs it is wake up time.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            McFlock is right: a double standard applies.

            • weka

              that might be Trinder’s point too.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                If so, he hasn’t made it very well.

                • weka

                  Maybe he’s not talking to you.

                  • McFlock

                    Maybe he forgets that when he writes articles for publication, other people can read it, or report it without perhaps repeating the subtleties that were intended to be transmitted to the faithful.

                    • weka

                      or maybe he just doesn’t care (which seems to be what he is saying).

                    • McFlock

                      Politics is a funny game for him to be in, then.

                    • weka

                      How so? Because he doesn’t play by a certain set of rules?

                    • McFlock

                      No, because politics is about substantially increasing your following, not preaching to the converted while alienating outsiders.

                    • weka

                      “No, because politics is about substantially increasing your following, not preaching to the converted while alienating outsiders.”

                      To be honest, I don’t think either of us are in any position to know what’s best for Mana. Your statement is about how you think politics is done successfully, but is predicated on ideas about what success is as well as how it happens. Bear in mind that Mana just played that game for quite some time, and look what happened. They have very little in the public domain that you and I access that tells us what is really going on for them, what works for them, what they want to achieve. We get snippets, but nothign close to the detail or understanding we might have of other parties. Bet it looks different from the marae.

                    • McFlock

                      Maybe this is Trinder’s memo that he’s given up on Mana getting elected and will just piss in the pool from now on.

                      In which case, I repeat “thanks, Mana News”.

                    • weka

                      ok McFlock, ignore what I just said, and keep on with thinking you know what’s best for Mana (and presumably radical Māori).

                    • McFlock

                      yes, because I’ve been totally talking about what’s best for Mana and Maori. /sarc

                      So right back atcha.

                      Maybe a left wing and registered-with-the-electoral-commission political party doesn’t want to get elected. Well, good for them.

                      The point remains that if they start lying as bad as the tories, everyone gets tarred with that brush.

                    • weka

                      “Maybe this is Trinder’s memo that he’s given up on Mana getting elected and will just piss in the pool from now on.”

                      Maybe. Or maybe he sees it differently. Would you be interested if he did?

                      “yes, because I’ve been totally talking about what’s best for Mana and Maori. /sarc”

                      “Maybe a left wing and registered-with-the-electoral-commission political party doesn’t want to get elected. Well, good for them.”

                      I don’t believe you.

                      “The point remains that if they start lying as bad as the tories, everyone gets tarred with that brush.”

                      Yes, but why should they care if the left gets tarred with that brush? That’s not a rhetorical question.

                    • McFlock

                      I’d be not just interested, I’d be gobsmacked.

                      And actually, I do mean “good for them”. If they don’t want to get elected, it opens the field for people who do. Unless they also decide to do things that can be then used against people who do want to get elected. In which case screw them.

                      Yes, but why should they care if the left gets tarred with that brush? That’s not a rhetorical question.
                      Because in a democratic society, the only way system change happens is to persuade people to vote for you or for policies that matter. If Mana now don’t want to get elected, but are also happy to damage the reputations of parties that do want to get elected, then that leaves the tories in charge. No change.

                      Which makes me wonder whether you believe Mana actually want change, or that they just want to say “I told you so” from the vantage point of a deckchair as the ship sinks.

          • McFlock

            The problem isn’t that one side uses them.
            The problem is that only one side has a foul called by the msm when that side deviates from queensbury rules. And that side isn’t the tories.

            Look at the “moment of truth”. Not as much of a fizzer as the public dialogue suggests, but labelled as such because it wasn’t good enough. Now imagine what the dialogue would be if substantial claims in it were false. Because that’s the path that Trinder seems to be going down.

            • weka

              If you assume that Trinder’s claims are false. If you assume they true, then his tactics look off, but not completely outside the realms of reasonable. See my example below of women who’ve been raped naming their rapist publicly because they have no other avenues for justice.

              Assuming Trinder is telling the truth*, I don’t particularly approve of what he is doing. But it’s interesting seeing how many people are assuming he is lying, and/or that there is nothing useful about what he is doing/he is downright wrong in his approach, as if he should be playing by other people’s rules (cf to my point about guerilla warfare).

              *for the sake of argument. Myself I can’t see anything that suggests he is lying, but he could be. Or someone could be lying to him.

              • McFlock

                The was in reply to Marty’s “queensbury rules” comment, which I assume means making shit up because the tories do, too.

                But having read some on the comments on the MN page, I think that Trinder’s response seems a bit ott for someone who is confident in the truth of their story.

                • That assumption is incorrect. One of the things we know about politics is that it has got to be a multi pronged and multi level of attack to build the perception that we know to be true. Part of that could be called ‘guerrilla tactics’ where non-usual modes are employed. I see this article in that bracket. When fringe players do it then all the majors can tut tut and enjoy the discomfort created for their political enemies. A bit like a placard at a gnat function. Far from hurting the left it actually strengthens the left because it creates confidence imo. It doessn’t give the gnats more ammunition or get out of jail cards because they don’t care about, a Mana and b the left – they care what the polls say and nobody s interested in Mana or the issue so the polls will say zip, the gnats will go ho hum and the only people getting worked up are lefties who somehow think they’ve been sullied because “where is the PROOF”. I think that is a waste of time for the left.

                  • McFlock

                    So, in this case, what is the “non-usual mode” that has been used here?

                    Making stories up?
                    Repeating an unsubstantiated claim as a categorical truth?
                    Holding on to proof as some kind of point (what point)?

                    And how can this particular “non-usual mode” strengthen the left while also being a waste of time for the left?

                    • weka

                      “Making stories up?”

                      None of us here know if the story is made up or not.

                      “Repeating an unsubstantiated claim as a categorical truth?”

                      Is there any situation when this is valid?

                      “Holding on to proof as some kind of point (what point)?”

                      What makes you think it’s that rather than what Trinder said about protecting sources?

                    • McFlock

                      Here’s the thing: unless it can be substantiated, it’s worse than useless. Remember the “I’ll have the tape shortly” thing about Key and the GCSB? Or anything Garner says?

                      It’ll become just another example the nats use to say the left is just as full of lies as the tories are, even if it’s true. Because we will never know it’s true.

                      If Trinder really is “protecting sources” (actually, he only refers to “my source”, which flies it back to rumour), then he’s a damned fool – if Key made that phone call, then Key knows where he was when he made it, so he has a very good idea of who leaked it (someone in the room with either party, or one of the receptionists if they can conference call). Especially as it only reports key’s side of the conversation. Which also opens the possibility that Key was talking about someone else entirely unless Trinder’s source was party to both sides of the conversation.

                      Easy enough to cull the likely suspects.

                    • weka

                      “Here’s the thing: unless it can be substantiated, it’s worse than useless. Remember the “I’ll have the tape shortly” thing about Key and the GCSB? Or anything Garner says?”

                      Yep, and in general I completely agree with you.

                      “It’ll become just another example the nats use to say the left is just as full of lies as the tories are, even if it’s true. Because we will never know it’s true.”

                      That just takes us back to the assumption that Mana’s objectives and the left’s are the same. My point throughout this is that we are often really bad at understanding what Māori want, so why should it be any different now? That’s leaving aside what Mana is and how it represents at a wider level, and I do think that there are fair criticisms to be made if one views Mana solely as a mainstream political party. I just don’t think that’s the whole story and it would serve the left better to understand more deeply what is going on with Mana rather than just condemning them from the left’s perspecitve. For them I’m guessing it’s the same old stuff.

                      Key doesn’t have to be the only person that the ‘leaker’ needs to be protected from. Plus someone on twitter commented you hear a lot of things in the Koru lounge.

                      And maybe the person heard more of the conversation than the bit that Trinder reported, and that extra bit included better context. It’s all speculation, but I think we can speculate in any direction.

                    • McFlock

                      If speculation in any direction is equally valid, then the piece has added zero knowledge about Key or the decisions regarding Campbell live.

                    • It’s only a waste of time for the left if they focus on it, so don’t.

                    • McFlock

                      So ignoring a possible lie by an associated party (if only associated via the msm) can strengthen the left?

                      That leads to an obvious hypocrisy the next time anyone on the left demands the tories substantiate their own outlandish claims: ‘why didn’t you demand proof when mana made shit up about us’, that sort of thing.

                      Yeah, nah. Put up or shut up springs to mind. The rumour mongering adds nothing to the issue other than allegations of muckraking and fabrication.

  21. Grantoc 21

    Trinder is living in a fantasy world.

    If he wants to be taken seriously he’ll put up the evidence.

    To say that Mana news doesn’t have to substantiate anything invites ridicule. I guess Trinder is hoping that they’ll get sued, thereby providing a modicum of credibility to his fantasy. But that won’t happen; he and Mana news will just be ignored, except by those who desperately want this to be explained by such a conspiracy theory.

    The truth is probably as stated; Campbell live is not producing the commercial results required by the company. End of story – despite the very good arguments for retaining the show on the basis of honest and gutsy journalism. But, lets wait for due process to unfold, the show may yet be retained (in some form at least), following the consultation process.

    • Lanthanide 21.1

      I think it’s likely John’ll be offered some sort of show on TV3 in some capacity; whether he takes it up is a different matter.

    • freedom 21.2

      “Campbell live is not producing the commercial results required by the company.”

      Won’t alter the landscape much, but according to a statement from Campbell Live,
      the show runs at a profit.

    • weka 21.3

      “If he wants to be taken seriously he’ll put up the evidence.”

      I think you are missing the point He doesn’t want credibility, he’s stated that openly. So what does that leave? Would be nice of more people thought this through.

  22. Clemgeopin 22

    The two claims made by Joe Trinder (Key wanting Campbell sacked and Burger King threatening to withdraw ads due to Zero Hour contract stories) are quite explosive. If untrue, then, why doesn’t,
    [1] Key deny the claim and take a defamatory action?
    [2] Burger King issue a statement stating that no such email was sent and take defamatory action?

    • Lanthanide 22.1

      Because it’s easier just to ignore the claims than respond to them.

    • Because it is so obviously rubbish and fabricated that no-one would be bothered to claim defamation. The holes in the story are so big and obvious the no-one, apart from a few people that don’t seem to have thought it through (“BK could proe me wrong by releasing the email they never sent me” really? Come on) could ever take it seriously.

      I tell you what though – joe sent me email saying this is completely bullshit. Prove me wrong. Joe could prove me wrong by releasing the email….so how full of shit that is?

  23. Clemgeopin 23

    ” it is so obviously rubbish and fabricated”

    You know that for sure?

    • Given his complete failure to substantiate his claims and his complete reversal of the burden of proof speak pretty clearly to the fact there is no evidence to this outside hearsay. Can I know for sure, no. But I can sure a shit call it as bullshit.

  24. Sacha 24

    Trinder claims John Key appointed Weldon as CEO of (private company) Mediaworks. That’s stupid enough on its own for me to not accept any of his other reckons without evidence.

    We don’t need some weird conspiracy to explain what’s going on here – it’s a logical outcome of legislating our media to run as a market. The cure is a law change, not tinfoil.

    • weka 24.1

      “Trinder claims John Key appointed Weldon as CEO of (private company) Mediaworks. That’s stupid enough on its own for me to not accept any of his other reckons without evidence.”

      I find it entirely credible as a theory. Allowing for differences in use of language (change ‘appointed’ to ‘manipulated the appointment), how is it impossible that Key used his influence to get the CEO he wanted?

      • Sacha 24.1.1

        If someone believes appointed means the same as influenced, then I have no use for any other words they may utter.

        • weka

          Better stop reading here then. That’s a level of pedantry that obliterates anyone without a formal education in grammar and syntax.

          See I read Trinder’s comment, and assumed that everyone reading knows that Key doesn’t work for Mediaworks and can’t literally appoint anyone there, but equally as obviously has the kind of power and influence that could get his man into the position.

          It’s pretty obvious that Trinder isn’t a master of literacy online. Writing off someone’s political point because they don’t use English in a strictly formal way is elitist. There are ways to criticise what Trinder has done without being that.

          btw, if Trinder is telling the truth, it’s doesn’t require a conspiracy. That’s another red herring, and ‘conspiracy theory’ is being used as an inaccurate slur. All that is required is DP and the neoliberal boys network to operate as it always does.

          • rawshark-yeshe

            +100 weka

          • Sacha

            Trinder’s lack of writing skills wasn’t obvious to me. Never read him before. I’m very relaxed about spelling and grammar, but not about mis-using words. Why should I bother with somebody who is that poor at explaining themselves? His ‘political point’ is severely undermined by his refusal to pony up with any evidence. I’d be feeling more patient if he had.

            • weka

              “Why should I bother with somebody who is that poor at explaining themselves? ”

              No reason, but you will miss out on a lot of valid perspectives. Not everyone expresses themselves in perfect ways, but that doesn’t mean they’re not worth reading/listening to.

              • Sacha

                Using words to mean their common meaning is hardly ‘perfection’. I am very pragmatic about communication but ringing a frog when you really want to discombobulate a passing preacher is a tad handbag, wouldn’t you say?

                • weka

                  lolz, no, we can agree to disagree on this one. For me the communication is what’s important not the literalness of one word’s meaning and I understood pretty well what he meant.

                  • The lost sheep

                    “communication is what’s important not the literalness of one word’s meaning”

                    i.e. ‘Conspiracy Theory’ means ‘Truth’, and ‘meaning’ is synonymous with ‘belief’.

                    No need to be any more exact about this case than that. sarc.

                    • weka

                      What? Where’s the conspiracy theory? Or belief?

                    • The lost sheep

                      “All that is required is DP and the neoliberal boys network to operate as it always does.”

                      A group of people plotting to influence events in a harmful / evil manner.
                      That would be a conspiracy by my Oxford?

                      “I find it entirely credible as a theory”
                      Er, and that’s a theory?

                    • weka

                      Key using his normal networks to achieve his normal political objectives isn’t conspiring in the way you mean. Calling it a conspiracy theory is just a way of undermining an idea instead actually critiquing it.

                      “I find it entirely credible as a theory”
                      Er, and that’s a theory?

                      Yes, because there is no evidence, it’s theoretical. Doesn’t make it a conspiracy theory for the reasons above.

                    • The lost sheep

                      Weka, Trinders article stated
                      “The prime minister had insidiously conspired with Mark Weldon”
                      and you posted
                      “I’m willing to believe Trinder on this, or the possibility it’s true.

                      I thought we weren’t getting too hung up on ‘literal meanings’, so what’s the issue with me calling it a conspiracy in the way Trinder states and you agree with and I mean?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Weka, theories propose explanations for evidence or they aren’t theories: without the evidence, there’s nothing to theorise about.

                      Here’s a theory: the National Party deliberately feeds false information to the left, and Trinder is their unwitting dupe.

                    • The lost sheep

                      That is only if you insist on adhering to so called ‘conventional’ forms of logic OAB.

                      In the realm of Conspiracy Theory, the less so called ‘evidence’ available to support a theory, the more likely it is that ‘believers’ will accept the ‘theory’ as a ‘different trooth’, on the ‘logical’ basis that commonly understood evidence is self evidently wrong because the masses are brainwashed idiots.
                      Thus the lack of ‘evidence’ actually increases the ability to produce valid explanations of events.

                      An endless source of fun at a price all can afford.

  25. weka 25

    Some posts on the article that have been deleted,


    A point from Trinder about all these people suddenly concerned about Mana News’ reputation and credibility who’ve never read the site before.

    • marty mars 25.1

      So true that – I wonder about some of the motivations of some who hardly ever read Mana News and now have come out of the woodwork with their righteous proofing – if I was paranoid I’d say some are going into payback – or maybe just putting the boot in because the opportunity is there – oh look how arrrwful that Mana Movement is – such ungrateful poos after all the ‘respect’ we gave them, look they are nothing but losers haw haw haw – and that’s just the so called lefties

  26. Tracey 26

    If it was a phone conversation surely a witness can only verify one of the parties?

    • weka 26.1

      depends what level of evidence you want I suppose.

      • rawshark-yeshe 26.1.1

        Key ( to his travelling secretary/minder): “Get me Mark Weldon please”.

        Key: “Hi Mark etc etc etc etc …. ”

        all kinds of possibilities ?

  27. Ashoka's Hell 27

    Hey Campbell, all the best and thank you. So you were fired for being an investigative journalist (i.e. just doing your job)!

    “If those in charge of our society – politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television – can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves.”

    Howard Zinn

  28. Charles 28

    Anyone should be able to tell the claim is satire – particularly sharp satire. Campbell is a left-wing anything? Laughable. That John Key would call someone not left-wing a left-wing anything is probable, also laughable, since John Key has no time to think of anyone but himself, or his mates. Mana News equally satirical claim that they “don’t write balanced articles” is likely, also laughble, since no media outlet writes balanced articles. Mana News make themselves the news, just like Campbell has made himself his own story, and do it in the style of a angry rockband crowd-surfing fans they despise. I recognise the style of sentiment, do you?

    Meanwhile, back in the real world… if the effort to push a person off a cliff makes no sound, did anyone actually fall? And if the person who pushes also owns the ambulance at the bottom of the same cliff, was any crime committed?

    • rawshark-yeshe 28.1

      u must enjoy the sound of one hand crapping ? and no, it’s not a typo @Charles.

    • Bill 28.2


    • Ashoka's Hell 28.3

      Nice timing @ Charles,… spooky

      You see my friend its a form of asymmetric warfare. Except in this case the “balance” of the news it’s so far right (across MSM) that it makes freedom of choice or thought laughable.

      NZ Inc has no real left frame of reference…. its been removed, RNZ/TVNZ is practically shot.

      If you think the days are that dark (which I suspect your right – excuse the pun) and people are pushed off the cliff either economically, socially, mentally or even physically (or all of the above) you will have to assume no one is watching or that no one was told? You have to assume that…

      Are you watching Charles…

      I’m a free man too Charles and I think their are more and more people happy to jump off the cliff into the abyss.

      Heres one for you:

      If Marcel Marceau gets hit by a tree in a forest, does anyone hear?

      Go the base jumpers

  29. weka 29

    New post from Trinder

    To skeptics of the Campbell Live conversation

    avatr Mana News editor Joe Trinder


    Yesterday I was accused of being a left wing conspiracy theorist loony for not revealing my sources on who overheard the John Campbell conversation. The critics attempted to put Mana News on a pedestal and make comments like “You have let Mana down and the left down”. First off the left is intolerant of Mana Movement- Labour, Greens and NZ First asked its supporters to strategically vote against Hone in the last elections. This honourable left wing you’re talking about is a complete mystery to many within Mana.

    Yesterday was the critics first day they ever discovered the Mana News. Many confessed how genuinely concerned they were about this article and the integrity of Mana News. The feedback was disingenuous because its the first day the critics ever read one of our articles. and the critics always have an opportunity to prove us wrong.

    Mana News doesn’t reveal its sources we protect them, we aren’t professional journalists just amateur bloggers. We care little for reputation or working to a journalist’s code of ethics we bend the rules. We don’t write balanced fair articles we ruthlessly expose the corruption in the National government. Our objective was to put the seed of doubt to the public that the National government is tampering with the media and we achieved that.

    Followed by some stuff about gtiso that seems strange to me, but maybe tiso was just the most visible critic that Trinder could use to prove a point.


    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 29.1

      Our objective was to put the seed of doubt to the public that the National government is tampering with the media and we achieved that.

      Speaks volumes.

      And Trinder: learn to punctuate.

    • Bill 29.2

      When digging yourself into a hole….

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 29.3

      I read the rest of that page and the thing I am thinking about over and over again is what a “pedal stool” looks like and whether it can be used like a bicycle.

      • Colonial Rawshark 29.3.1

        Maybe it’s a kind of chair you sit on to press the pedals of a piano.

        It’s disappointing that Mana News has decided to destroy its own credibility and then voluntarily bomb the remaining rubble of that credibility.

        People are hungry for trustworthy, accurate, principled left wing news, IMO. I doubt that they want some kind of Fox News for the Left, however. The gap remains.

        • weka

          Whereas I think that supposed left wing commenters on a left wing blogsite who think that literacy is worthy of ridicule deserve what they are getting, which as far as I can tell is contempt.

          It’s gobsmacking the number of people here who think that Mana and Mana News should do what is right for the left, all things considered.

          • Bill

            Not buying into this ‘Mana bashing’ bullshit.

            The fact remains that if non-opinion pieces are written, then either shit is made up or facts are presented.

            In my former activist incarnation that was way to the left of Mana or who-ever, when I wrote stuff, I didn’t make shit up. If people want to argue that it’s fine to make up shit, then I really want to hear the argument… before pushing them into the hole that’s waiting for them and picking up my shovel.

            • weka

              I have no idea if Trinder made shit up or not, so I can’t really respond to that part of your comment. I certainly haven’t been arguing that it’s ok to make shit up, and don’t know why you’ve brought that up in a reply to me.

              As for Mana bashing, I’ve said a few times now I’m more interested in people’s responses than what Trinder has done. Ridiculing someone for their literacy is pretty naff.

              If you are focussed on the ‘he made shit up’ thing, that actually doesn’t preclude there also being people here who think they know what’s best for Mana when they’re projecting their own stuff about the left onto them. It’s a bit rich given what what happened to Mana at the last election (and all the other stuff).

              • Bill

                Really!? You have no idea? Not an inkling? The guy claims to present facts and then claims there is no need for him to back up his claims. And he might not be making shit up?

                Shades of the ‘Golden Tablets’ there, but sure, okay.

                • weka

                  Or course he might be making things up. Or he might not. If you think I’ve been saying he’s telling the truth you really haven’t been paying attention to what I’ve been writing.

                  Don’t know what Golden Tablets are.

                  • McFlock

                    Don’t know what Golden Tablets are.

                    ISTR it’s a reference to one of the prophetic religions (Latter Day Saints?) where the founding prophet dictated the holy text from a set of golden tablets given him by an angel.

                    “Dictated” from the tablets, because only the founder was allowed to see the tablets. Basically, all faith no evidence. Fair enough for religion if you’re in to that sort of thing, but a bit shit when you’re making allegations of political collusion.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Whereas I think that supposed left wing commenters on a left wing blogsite who think that literacy is worthy of ridicule deserve what they are getting, which as far as I can tell is contempt.

            Self styled news editors should be more literate, more talented at prose and more respectful of the truth than ordinary bloggers.

            Don’t you think.

            • weka

              No. I think that the group that is trying to work for the betterment of disenfranchised Māori and others should work according to its own values. Trinder has already explained he is a blogger not a journalist. He can write any way he wants, and I have no idea why he writes the way he does (although check out some of lprent’s grammar some time and try telling him that he’s not up to scratch) but the snobbery around literacy in this thread is not improving the left’s credibility.


              • Bill

                Phil Ure…

                On your other point, I guess any backing up of facts has no place in the post modernist vat of ‘shit we make up’ to make sense(lessness) of the world, one another and events.

                • weka

                  As far as I know (am happy to be corrected) pu doesn’t have literacy issues, and isn’t overworked and thus not editing his comments (which is my guess about Lynn). Pu intentionally writes in a style that a significant number of people have trouble reading. I have no problem with that at all when he does it on his own blog, but when he does it here and it affects communication, then yeah, it’s a problem. I’d like to see the argument made that Trinder’s writing style affects people’s understanding of what he is trying to communicate.

                  “On your other point, I guess any backing up of facts has no place in the post modernist vat of ‘shit we make up’ to make sense(lessness) of the world, one another and events.”

                  I only made one point (it was all about literacy), so I have no idea what you are talking about. I hope you’re not ascribing something to me that I didn’t say (I don’t think making shit up is ok, so again, why bring that up with me?).

                  • Bill

                    So far on this thread you have brought up an absence of demands for evidence; comparing TRP post to Trinder’s, even though the two don’t bear comparison. Made some references to people indulging in Mana bashing and Maori bashing , made some (to me) strange comment on world perspectives that would apparently allow for some to not bother supplying basic levels of verification on claims being made, compared the trustworthiness of Trinder and Peters, commented on KDC, suggested that what Trinder has written is A-Ok because…well, I got lost on that point…

                    …and so, so much more besides.

                    I get that one point or another has more or less prominence depending on what segment of the thread is being read, though on a big picture reading, they don’t exist in silos and tend to feed into one another on various levels.

                    • weka

                      You said ‘on your other point’. I have no idea what point you are referring to, and giving me synopsis of what you think are all the things I’ve been saying in this thread doesn’t narrow it down.

                      “suggested that what Trinder has written is A-Ok because”

                      How about you point to that one specifically?

                      btw, ‘bashing’ is your term, not mine. ‘Māori bashing’ is a loaded term that makes it harder to look at what might be happening here.

              • The real irony is a media spokesperson who can’t write properly and happily admits that what he does write can’t be trusted! It’s hard not to raise an eyebrow in those circumstances.

                But, I do agree with you about literacy in a general sense. And I think most commenters here also agree and are pretty relaxed about typos and grammatical clangers when they appear on the pages of TS. Most mistakes simply get ignored and its the ideas that get discussed, not the pedantic errors.

                • weka

                  Yes, which is why ridiculing Trinder over literacy in this context is really off. Have a go at his politics by all means, but don’t have a go at someone’s literacy as a way of undermining them because you don’t liek their politics (or behaviour).

                  “The real irony is a media spokesperson who can’t write properly and happily admits that what he does write can’t be trusted! It’s hard not to raise an eyebrow in those circumstances.”

                  It’s not ironic. Have you considered that Trinder might have actual literacy issues? And that Mana may not have a large pool of more acceptably literate people to draw on? And that literacy correctness might not be high on their list of concerns?

                  I don’t have a problem with eyebrow raising. I think there is something else going on here as well

                  • I have considered it. And it’s obviously the case that he does write poorly. But that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t articulate the views of mana or be taken any less seriously than any other party’s media wonks.

                    The real issue is credibility. He’s admitted that he cannot be trusted to write factually. Now, that really is an issue for mana. Is it credible to have a “news editor” who does not feel obliged to tell the truth?

                    I know it works for National, but have we lowered our standards that far?

                    • weka

                      “He’s admitted that he cannot be trusted to write factually”

                      Can you point to where exactly? I hadn’t interpreted it that way.

                    • “We care little for reputation or working to a journalist’s code of ethics we bend the rules. We don’t write balanced fair articles … “

                    • weka

                      Interesting. I don’t take that to mean he cannot be trusted to write factually, and having reread it a couple of times I think it’s still entirely possible he didn’t mean that. Which leaves us with why each of interpreted it differently.

                    • felix

                      Yeah I’m struggling to interpret that as meaning “not factual”.

                      I suppose it could be construed to mean that but in context it seems unlikely to me that he did mean that, and unless he actually says so I see no reason to assume that’s what he meant as it’s not the most obvious reading of it by any stretch.

                    • http://www.epmu.org.nz/journalist-code-of-ethics/

                      The first three words:

                      Respect for truth

                      If mana don’t feel obliged to have respect for truth (and all the the other ethical standards in the code) then my point is correct. They cannot be trusted to write factually.

                      Like it or not, Trinder has exposed mana as being untrustworthy. That doesn’t mean the overheard conversation didn’t happen, but it does mean that we can’t trust what they say, because they don’t think that ethical reporting applies to them. According to Trinder, anyway.

                      Frankly, Trinder should resign. Any other media person who made a statement that so obviously brings their organisation into disrepute would be sacked in a heartbeat.

                    • weka

                      But Trinder isn’t a journalist, he’s a blogger. He didn’t say he didn’t have respect for the truth, he said “We care little for reputation or working to a journalist’s code of ethics we bend the rules.”

                      I can tell you I don’t write with a journalist’s code of ethics in mind either. Does that mean I’m untrustworthy?

                    • “I can tell you I don’t write with a journalist’s code of ethics in mind either. Does that mean I’m untrustworthy?”

                      As a private individual shooting the breeze, no, it doesn’t mean you’re untrustworthy. The code of ethics clearly does not apply.

                      However, if you are the News Editor of a political party, yes, that makes you untrustworthy. And if you publicly insist your party is equally untrustworthy, then you are a liability as well.

                    • weka

                      You say he’s a News Editor of a political party, he says he’s not a journalist he’s a blogger. Who gets to decide?

                    • He decides. He calls himself the News Editor, so I’ve gone with how he styles himself.

                    • weka

                      that’s disingenuous TRP.

                    • Wha? How can it be disingenuous if it’s 100% correct? That’s literally what he calls himself. Check the link in the OP.

                      Ha! Even better, check the link you yourself provided! Mana News editor Joe Trinder, that’s what it says there too.

                      I want that left wing bastard gone

                    • weka

                      ffs, I’m pretty sure you’ve already read the bit where he says he’s not a journalist he’s a blogger. You can use the term ‘News Editor’ to mean what you want it to mean rather than what he wants it to mean, and then you have him in a box that suits you, but like I said, he doesn’t see himself that way.

                    • Sacha

                      “You can use the term ‘News Editor’ to mean what you want it to mean”

                      No, you really can’t. Language is a dance, but it does have some parameters. You don’t get to decide what words mean on your lonesome – that’s a social and historic process.

                      Those two words have had a well-defined and shared meaning for many decades. The first one especially. If someone wishes to cloak themselves with the phrase then they get all the implications and expectations, not just the extra credibility they may have been seeking.

                      Highly relevant though in a discussion about what “news” and “current affairs” has become. Just entertainment, the PM assures us.

                    • But he does see himself that way! Joe Trinder is the news editor of mana news, according to mana news news editor Joe Trinder.

                      Unless of course you’re a believer in the John Key theory of hats.

                    • felix


                      The first three words:

                      Respect for truth

                      If mana don’t feel obliged to have respect for truth (and all the the other ethical standards in the code) then my point is correct.

                      You’ve taken someone saying they’re not bound by a certain code, and you’ve interpreted that to mean that they reject everything in that code.

                      That could be the case, but I don’t think I’ll take it on your say-so.

                    • “You’ve taken someone saying they’re not bound by a certain code, and you’ve interpreted that to mean that they reject everything in that code.”

                      No, felix, no, I haven’t. A better summary might be that they appear to think they can pick and choose when they tell the truth and when they can “bend the rules”.

                    • felix

                      If mana don’t feel obliged to have respect for truth (and all the the other ethical standards in the code)

                      What am I missing here, TRP?

                      How is that not doing exactly what I described above?

                    • What are you missing? The meaning of the word ‘obliged’, I’m guessing.

                    • felix

                      No, that’s not it.

                      When I’m baking, I’m not obliged to follow Escoffier.

                      According to your logic, this means I can’t make cakes.

                    • Yeah, you win. I’m totally convinced. mana should be free to lie any time they want and that’s totally ethical, man. Sorry for any confusion. Good luck with the cakes.

                    • felix

                      I didn’t say I agreed with any of that.

                      Doesn’t mean I have to go along with your obvious bullshit as well though.

                      The dishonesty you’ve shown in the last few comments is just amazing considering the subject of the thread. You should probably think about how that reflects on “the left” 🙄

                    • Actually, bud, you’ve pretty much not said anything that makes any sense. But y’know, whatev’s.

                      Muffins ahoy!

                    • felix

                      It’s actually pretty straightforward, but you do need to be able to read what’s in front of you without leaping to conclusions.

                      I can see why you found it challenging.

  30. freedom 30

    In related news
    “John Key dismisses Campbell Live as entertainment”

    In an unexpected move, the reporter strategically refrains from
    seeking the PM’s opinion on what Seven Sharp is. sarc

    • repateet 30.1

      Had the reporter asked that question, the PM could have simply looked behind, down low, and asked “What do you reckon Mike?’

  31. Sable 31

    Irrespective of whether Key has a role in this or not its my opinion that this is most certainly an attempt to silence any voices raised in opposition to the right wing propaganda that is the MSM in NZ.

    Much the same thing happened to Derryn Hinch in Australia for rocking the righties boat.

  32. SMILIN 32

    It really is a sad day for NZ’s democracy that party politics can destroy the right to the truth or public inquiry thru the media
    It really shows just how little power we have as a voter to hold an enquiry into the policies of our govt and the possibility of totalitarian actions bythe PM.

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    It's my distraction,  setting up tiny scenes to photograph.  I've got stuck on the Babushka dolls for now.  Something about their bubble shape.  Something about their never changing, smiling features, suggesting persistent equanimity.  Can we get through everything that is being thrown at us and keep at least a tiny ...
    13 hours ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 6
    . . March 31: Day six of living in lock-down… This time I managed to sleep a little longer and the alarm woke me at the pre-set time: 6.55am. Then remembered I was working a later shift and could’ve slept in. Oh well, there are things to do at home. ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    13 hours ago
  • March ’20 – NZ blogs sitemeter ranking
    Image credit: Diamond Harbour School Blogs I notice a few regulars no longer allow public access to the site counters. This may happen accidentally when the blog format is altered. If your blog is unexpectedly missing or ...
    14 hours ago
  • Hard News: Poll Pot and the partisans
    Yesterday's Horizon poll showing support for a "Yes" vote in this year's cannabis referendum sliding into the majority for the first time in a year looked like good news for reformers – and it probably is. But the result warrants some scrutiny.The poll is the fifth in a series commissioned ...
    15 hours ago
  • Why those bubbles are so important
    For almost a week now, every one of us who isn’t an essential worker has been confined to their bubble. We are allowed to go shopping for groceries, to visit the doctor, and to get a bit of exercise if we stay local. The reason we are doing this is ...
    SciBlogsBy Siouxsie Wiles
    16 hours ago
  • A Government System That Works
    The Covid-19 saga will no doubt produce many twists and turns for us before it is finally brought to an end. But one thing it has shown us – and what comfort it should bring us – is that our country’s government is in good hands. I am not thinking ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    17 hours ago
  • Smashing down the barriers: Where are we at with COVID vaccines?
    In the absence of a vaccine or a cure for a deadly disease, staying home in your bubble is what you do, the concept is not new.  To the best of my knowledge last time we did this in NZ was for polio, in the years before a vaccine came ...
    SciBlogsBy Helen Petousis Harris
    1 day ago
  • National Network on Cuba (USA): “Cuban medical solidarity is a pillar of its society and is founde...
    The following statement was released on March 28 by the National Network on Cuba, a coalition of 40 groups, based in the United States. In recent weeks, Cuba has deployed hundreds of medical providers to over a dozen countries in Europe, Asia, as well as to their neighbors in Latin ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 day ago
  • Alarming decrease in calves increases fears for endangered Hector’s dolphin
    This has been a terrible summer for Hector’s dolphins. The first indication was very low numbers of dolphin sightings during late spring and early summer. The Otago University Marine Mammal Research Team has carried out routine dolphin surveys at Banks Peninsula for more than 30 years. In all that time, ...
    SciBlogsBy Otago Marine Science
    1 day ago
  • Time for Grant Robertson to reveal package #2?
    On March 17, Finance Minister Grant Robertson was quick out of the blocks with an economic rescue package to help businesses through the inevitable recession resulting from the coronavirus pandemic. Robertson had pulled together a scheme in short order that so far seems to have saved many jobs. In his ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    1 day ago
  • Saving lives
    The purpose of the lockdown is to save lives, by reducing the spread of covid-19. We won't know if its really working for another week, but given the devastation that will result if it doesn't - 14,000 dead is the optimistic scenario - its definitely worth trying. But pausing the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 5
    . . March 30: Day five of living in lock-down… Woke up still in darkness. Alarm hadn’t gone off. Turn to radio clock; it’s a few minutes after 6am… I lie there in the dark, waiting to drift off to sleep… but it ain’t happening. Clock ticks over to 6.55 ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    2 days ago
  • Speaker: Les Gray: the man who told the truth
    The story of Les Gray, the public sector psychologist who told the truth about his use of cannabis and set off a storm, has a special place in the lore of cannabis reform in New Zealand.When Paul Shannon interviewed Gray for the 'Dope and Hope' issue of Planet magazine in ...
    2 days ago
  • Why now? Historical specificity and the perfect storm that has created trans identity politics
    by Phil Duncan For Marxists, a key concern about social trends is their context – not just their causes, but why they happen when they do.  Events and phenomena have causes, but they also are time or period-specific. While much of the left have capitulated recently to postmodernism, most notably ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 days ago
  • Time for a living wage for supermarket workers
    Since the lockdown began, we've all suddenly been reminded who the actually essential workers in our society are: not the people at the top who pay themselves the big bucks and rort the perks, but the people at the bottom they screw over and squeeze: cleaners, warehouse staff, truck drivers ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Hard News: MUSIC: Lockdown Grooves
    Kia ora! As I've watched nearly all my remaining work vanish over the past couple of days, it has occured to me that one good way to keep me away from arguing with fools on Twitter all the time (in the knowledge that all we're really doing is processing our ...
    2 days ago
  • A place of greater safety?
    Aotearoa New Zealand has committed to trying to extirpate the virus that causes COVID-19 from its shores. To do that, as a society we’ve moved to “Level 4”. That means adapting to unprecedented restrictions on our personal freedoms, particularly to our rights to move freely and associate with friends and ...
    PunditBy Andrew Geddis
    3 days ago
  • The police and public trust
    When the Prime Minister declared a state of emergency last week, she handed the police powers to enforce it. And almost immediately, we started hearing about heavy-handed, arbitrary "enforcement" by police who (at best) cared more about order than law, or (more likely) had no idea what the rules were ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 4
    . . Lock Down: Day 4 – A photo essay with observations . March 29: Usual wake up routine as RNZ snaps on my radio-clock. Jim Mora’s voice slowly enters my conciousness; there’s talk of a second wave of covid19 taking hold in South Korea; the week in Parliament – ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    3 days ago
  • COVID-19 vs New Zealand
    Yesterday, New Zealand recorded its first Covid-19 related death on the West Coast. Unfortunately this is unlikely to be the only fatality, with the virus now being found in every region of the country.However despite the significant danger, people are still unfortunately breaching lockdown rules.There’s really only one main very ...
    3 days ago
  • 2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #13
    Story of the Week... Toon of the Week... Coming Soon on SkS... Climate Feedback Claim Review... SkS Week in Review... Poster of the Week... Story of the Week... ‘Misinformation kills’: The link between coronavirus conspiracies and climate denial   Grist / Rob Kim / Stringer / CSA Images  Scientific ...
    3 days ago
  • Rāhui day 4
    The kids did surprisingly well today – meltdown count was about 3, and mostly fairly short ones. (And a fourth while I was writing.) Game-wise I had a go at Fell Seal: Arbiter’s Mark. It’s a fairly standard RPG with turn-based combat and what they call a “mature storyline” (it ...
    The little pakehaBy chrismiller
    3 days ago
  • Letter to a friend
    by Don Franks Hi David, Nice hearing from you, I’m glad to hear you’re getting by okay in these grim times. You asked how’s it going for us back here in New Zealand. You would have heard that the whole country is locked down and with breaks for exercise and ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    3 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 3
    . . Lock Down: Day 3 – A photo essay with observations . March 28: First day of the first weekend in Lock Down. It feels like it’s been weeks since only Level 3 was declared last Tuesday, only four days ago. Woke up this morning to RNZ; coffee; toast, ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    4 days ago
  • 2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #13
    A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week, i.e., Sun, Mar 22, 2020 through Sat, Mar 28, 2020 Articles Linked to on Facebook Sun, Mar 22, 2020 In Just 10 Years, Warming Has Increased the Odds of Disasters by Chelsea Harvey, ...
    4 days ago
  • Rāhui day 3
    I’m here in lockdown with my flatmate and her two girls (6 and 2) and it. is. a time. They’re usually really active so to start with the only boardgame in the house is the copy of Guess Who that the 6 year old got for her birthday. Flatmate commented ...
    The little pakehaBy chrismiller
    4 days ago
  • A test of civil society.
    The CV-19 (COVID) pandemic has seen the imposition of a government ordered national quarantine and the promulgation of a series of measures designed to spread the burden of pain and soften the economic blow on the most strategically important and most vulnerable sectors of society. The national narrative is framed ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    4 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 2
    . . Lock Down: Day 2 – A photo essay with observations . March 27 – Day 2 of our Strange New World. The Park and Ride near my suburb, usually filled with hundreds of vehicles, had just… four; . . Another drive into Wellington City on a highway nearly ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    5 days ago
  • How Do You Feel? What Do You Think?
    Fortune's Children: Under extraordinary pressure, the leader of the Government and the leader of the Opposition will each show us what they are made of. Have they been blessed with intelligence, grace, wit, poise, toughness, empathy and humour – and in what measure? More importantly, to what extent have they ...
    5 days ago
  • Landlords are NOT an essential service
    If you’ve ever had the misfortune of having to rent a property on the open market in New Zealand, which is one of the most expensive in the entire world, you’ll likely be keenly aware of just how arrogant and entitled landlords and their real estate agents can be.Unfortunately for ...
    5 days ago
  • A “new Society” post-COVID19 will definitely emerge. The question is: on what path?
    Society-wise, aside from the specific morbidity shall we say of the medically-oriented aspects of this COVID-19 crisis, what is unfolding before the world is in more than one way an instructive study of humanity and reactions to a high intensity, high stress environment in real time. Friends, we are at ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    5 days ago
  • Raise the Bar: Everything you need to know about the wage subsidy
    Right now low waged and insecure workers are feeling the economic brunt of the looming #Covid19 Recession. In response legal advocate Toby Cooper* and hospitality and worker’s rights advocate Chloe Ann-King, are putting together a series of legal blogs about your employment rights: In this legal blog we outline some ...
    PosseBy chloeanneking
    5 days ago
  • The massacre of prisoners in Modelo jail, Bogota, March 21
    by Equipo Jurídico Pueblos and Gearóid Ó Loingsigh (25/03/2020) An escape plan in question On the night of March 21st and the early morning of the 22nd, the forces of the Colombian state stormed into the Modelo prison in Bogotá, murdering 23 prisoners and injuring 83, in response to the ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    5 days ago
  • We are not America
    When the government banned semi-automatic weapons in response to a terrorist atrocity, gun-nuts were outraged. Mired in toxic American gun culture, they thought owning weapons whose sole purpose was killing people was some sort of "constitutional right", a necessity for "defending themselves" against the government. Now, the Court of Appeal ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • When will we know the lockdown is working?
    Just before midnight on Wednesday March 25, Aotearoa New Zealand entered a countrywide alert level four lockdown. For at least the next four weeks, everyone who isn’t an essential worker is confined to their bubble. We are doing this to stop the explosive growth in people contracting and dying from ...
    SciBlogsBy Siouxsie Wiles
    5 days ago
  • Lock Down: Day 1
    . . Lock Down: Day 1 – A photo essay with observations . Day one of the Level 4 nationwide lock-down (or, DefCon 4 as I sometimes cheekily call it) started at 11.59PM on 25 March. For a moment, most of the nation held it’s collective breath. In that brief ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    6 days ago
  • A Compelling Recollection.
    Broad, Sunlit Uplands: How those words fired my young imagination! Or, perhaps, it is more accurate to say: how those words fused, in my young mind, with the image printed on every packet of Fielder’s Cornflour. Always fascinated by history, especially modern history, I cannot hear Churchill’s wonderfully evocative words, even ...
    6 days ago
  • The Warehouse – where everyone gets a virus
    . . 24 March 2020 9.46AM Number of covid19 cases in Aotearoa New Zealand: 102 . As of 11.59 on Thursday, most of New Zealand will go into “lock down”. People will be expected not to travel to work; not to socialise; and to stay home. I will not be ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    6 days ago
  • Aggressive action to address climate change could save the world $145 trillion
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections A respected research group, Project Drawdown, finds that deploying solutions consistent with meeting the Paris climate targets would cost tens of trillions of dollars globally. But crucially, those outlays would also yield long-term savings many times larger than the up-front costs. The new 2020 Drawdown ...
    6 days ago
  • After the Pandemic
    It will pass. What happens next? Not immediately, but longer term. There are many opinions, fewer certainties. Will it “change everything!” as many confidently, and contradictorily predict? In this post I look at how foresight can help bound some of the uncertainties so you can more objectively consider the future. ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    6 days ago
  • Coronavirus – Cuba shows the way
    We’ve been meaning t write something on Cuba and the coronavirus but have just discovered a very good article on the subject in the US left publication Jacobin.  The article looks at how Cuba, a poor country but one where capitalism has been done away with, is leading the way ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    6 days ago
  • Using privacy law to prevent the death penalty
    In 2018, El Shafee Elsheikh and Alexanda Kotey - two British citizens who had purportedly been stripped of their citizenship by the British government - were captured while fighting for Isis in Syria. The British government then conspired to hand them over to the US, and agreed to provide evidence ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • It’s Time For Disaster Socialism.
    Transformers: The disaster of the Great Depression was transformed into a new and fairer society by the democratic socialism of the First Labour Government. The disaster of the Covid-19 Pandemic offers a similar transformative possibility to the Labour-NZ First-Green Government. Seize the time, Jacinda! You will never have a better ...
    7 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #12, 2020
    Tamper with The System? Well, we already are. But there's a difference between accidentally trickling sand into a precision gearbox versus formulating a plan to alter it on the fly with improvements in mind. One action is more or less innocently unscrupulous, the other amenable to earning an easy ...
    7 days ago
  • Avoidable hospitalisations: Helping our health system get through COVID-19
    Associate Prof George Thomson, Louise Delany, Prof Nick Wilson While it is possible that New Zealand can use intense public health controls to eradicate COVID-19 from the country – we must also plan for other scenarios where thousands of New Zealanders are sick – including many urgently hospitalised.1 Better resilience ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 week ago
  • Raise the Bar: 10 questions to ask your employer proposing redundancy
    Kia ora my name is Chloe Ann-King* and I am the founder of Raise the Bar, a campaign and non-profit that gives free legal aid, advocacy and tautoko to hospitality workers in Aotearoa. Right now all over our country hospo workers are being fired at will, having shifts cut or being ...
    PosseBy chloeanneking
    1 week ago
  • An equitable way to support business
    The Herald reports that the government is planning to lend billions of dollars to large businesses to keep them operating during the pandemic. As with mortgage relief, this is necessary: we need companies to stay in business, to reduce the economic damage and help things get restarted again when this ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Hard News: Together Alone
    We're about to do something unprecedented as a nation. We hope that by taking this extraordinary action before a single life in New Zealand has been lost to the deadly novel virus we will save tens of thousands of lives. Our  lives. We'll do it together, in households, in isolation ...
    1 week ago
  • Why timing is everything: ‘A time to refrain from embracing’ starts today
    “There is a time for everything,    and a season for every activity under the heavens.”So writes the author of Ecclesiastes, a book in the Old Testament that’s counted as a ‘wisdom’ book and written as if by an unnamed king of Jerusalem. But who would have thought there would be a time ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    1 week ago
  • Dealing with the Covid-19 Tsunami.
    I was surprised when the prime minister described the Economic Response to Covid-19 package as the ‘largest peacetime government spend in New Zealand's history’. Reflecting – checking through history – I realised that the term ‘spend’ was crucial and the package had no income tax cuts. Even so, it has ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    1 week ago
  • What about renters?
    The government today announced the latest part of its pandemic relief package: a six-month mortgage holiday for people whose incomes have been affected by the pandemic. Which is great, because these people are going to need help, and that's what the government should be doing. At the same time, it ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Living within our means.
    Years ago the Argentine sociologist Carlos Weisman wrote a book titled “Living within our Means.” It was a critique of Argentine society that focused on the paradoxical question of why, in a land of plenty, there was so much economic instability, inequality, corruption and political turmoil. His conclusion was basically ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Transparency and the pandemic
    Parliament will be leading by example and adjourning tomorrow after a special sitting to consider an epidemic notice and state of emergency. Day-to-day oversight of the government will be delegated to a select committee. But that's not the only overight mechanism. The OIA will still be law, and (so far) ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • ‘Overjoyed’: a leading health expert on New Zealand’s coronavirus shutdown, and the challengin...
    Michael Baker, University of Otago Overjoyed. That’s not a word epidemiologists normally use, but that’s how I felt after hearing Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s announcement about New Zealand’s COVID-19 shutdown of everything except essential services for at least four weeks from midnight on Wednesday. More than anything, I just ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 week ago
  • One way to solve the housing crisis
    How much homelessness is caused by house hoarding? We're about to find out. The pandemic has destroyed tourism, which means that house hoarders who put their hoarded properties up as short-term tourist rentals are now offering them on the ordinary rental market:Property investors are pulling properties from Airbnb to offer ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The pros and cons of planting trees to address global warming
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Bruce Lieberman It seems like such a simple, straightforward, empowering idea: plant trees – a lot of trees – all over the world, and watch the planet’s temperature fall. Who doesn’t love a tree or two, even far more – the right ...
    1 week ago
  • Not a grand coalition, but a government of national salvation
    According to Newshub, Simon Bridges is open to joining a “grand coalition” with Labour as we hunker down to go into a month long lockdown. The idea is sound. Before now, the role of the opposition was to scrutinise and oppose. In the context of what almost amounts to a ...
    PunditBy Liam Hehir
    1 week ago
  • Raise the Bar: hospitality workers & wage subsidy entitlements
    Kia ora my name is Chloe Ann-King* and I am the founder of Raise the Bar, a campaign and non-profit that gives free legal aid, advocacy and tautoko to hospitality workers in Aotearoa. Right now all over our country hospo workers are being fired at will, having shifts cut or ...
    PosseBy chloeanneking
    1 week ago
  • Lifting our game against COVID-19
    We need to be lifting our game against COVID-19. You and I need to help those working to prevent the spread of COVID-19 while they’re trying to lift the testing and treatment efforts. We don’t want to be playing this game running backwards. Best to play it solidly forward, from ...
    SciBlogsBy Grant Jacobs
    1 week ago
  • The maths and ethics of minimising COVID-19 deaths in NZ
    Prof Tony Blakely, Prof Michael Baker, and Prof Nick Wilson The NZ Government must do more to clearly articulate its COVID-19 strategy: eradication or ‘flattening the curve’ mitigation. But to do so means understanding the maths and ethics of both these strategies. In this blog, we adapt our work for ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 week ago
  • All aboard the Covid Train
    A few days ago I was starting to write something about the pandemic, which now seems unconscionable. It took the form of a letter to an agony aunt:“Dear Deidre, I have an ugly confession. I am quite excited by Covid-19.”This is how the piece went:“I’m not a psychopath, honest. Although the ...
    PunditBy Phil Vine
    1 week ago
  • 2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #12
    Story of the Week... Toon of the Week... Climate Feedback Article Review... Coming Soon on SkS... Climate Feedback Claim Reviews... SkS Week in Review... Poster of the Week... Story of the Week... In Just 10 Years, Warming Has Increased the Odds of Disasters The likelihood of extreme events ...
    1 week ago
  • We are all socialists now
    Last week, the government announced a $12 billion initial package to support people during the pandemic. Today, the Reserve Bank is buying government bonds - effectively printing money - to keep up the money supply during the crisis. Normally such moves would have the right apoplectic. Instead, the National Party ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • A plea to experts: safeguard your role in public life
    I am a pundit, somebody who opines and comments on the news. There are no real qualifications to punditry though having a rudimentary way with words and good general knowledge helps. That is one reason there is a constant oversupply of would-be pundits and why it is quite hard to ...
    PunditBy Liam Hehir
    1 week ago
  • Enlightenment when?
    I recently encountered the following prescription from a Faculty of Education at a leading New Zealand University. At first I wondered if it was another product of the postmodern generator (http://www.elsewhere.org/journal/pomo/), designed to create gibberish in the postmodern form, but I’m told it is real: The “schooled” society: Towards the ...
    SciBlogsBy Michael Corballis
    1 week ago
  • What the Crisis Can teach Us
    The coronavirus pandemic has of course had a major impact on individual lives and on societies as a whole. But, long after the crisis has passed (assuming it does), we will begin to realise that its real and lasting significance lies in the lessons it has taught us, if only ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Hammering home measures to stop COVID-19
    COVID-19 has plunged Aotearoa New Zealand (indeed, the world) into territory that, while maybe not totally unprecedented, certainly hasn’t been seen during the lifetimes of most of us here today. Our borders are closed to non-citizens, we’re being told not to gather in groups of more than 500 outside/100 inside, ...
    PunditBy Andrew Geddis
    2 weeks ago
  • What does ‘level two’ mean – and why does it matter?
    For the last few weeks, I’ve been urging you to prepare yourself, your family, business, and community for Covid-19. Now it’s time for real action.  Yesterday the director-general of health Dr Ashley Bloomfield announced another 13 confirmed cases of Covid-19 in New Zealand, bringing our total to date to 52. ...
    SciBlogsBy Siouxsie Wiles
    2 weeks ago
  • 2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #12
    A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week, i.e., Sun, Mar 15, 2020 through Sat, Mar 21, 2020 Editor's Pick Now Isn’t the Time to Forget About Our Climate Change Efforts   Tasha Tilberg, Lindsey Wixson, and Liu Wen photographed ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Is the Guardian becoming  a real newspaper again?
    by Jan Rivers The article has been corrected to show that it was Ewen MacAskill, former Guardian journalist and not Luke Harding who travelled to meet Edward Snowden with journalist Glenn Greenwald and filmmaker Laura Poitras.  Some of the Guardian’s well-known journalists who did not sign the protest letter are ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Life asserts itself regardless
    by Cultural Worker Late March 2020 amidst the virus. With gigs crashing and burning all around it was without much hope that I called a long standing rest home booking: “ Hi, I’m supposed to be entertaining at your place this afternoon – is it still on?” “”If you don’t ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics, the possible, and the pandemic
    Whenever people demand real change from their politicians, we're told that "politics is the art of the possible". The implication is that change isn't possible, so we'd better just get used to the sucky status quo. But now that there's a pandemic, a lot of things we were previously told ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

  • Business Finance Guarantee – applications open
    Businesses can start applying to their banks for loans under the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme set up to support the New Zealand economy during the COVID-19 pandemic. “We’re moving quickly to protect New Zealand businesses, jobs and the economy during this unprecedented global economic shock,” Finance Minister Grant Robertson said. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    8 hours ago
  • Work starts on ways to fast-track consents to boost recovery from Covid-19 downturn
    Work is underway looking at measures to speed up consents for development and infrastructure projects during the recovery from COVID 19, to provide jobs and stimulate our economy.  Environment Minister David Parker said the COVID-19 pandemic is a serious global crisis that will have a wide ranging and lasting impact ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    10 hours ago
  • Advance payments to support contractors
    Advance payments will be made to transport construction industry contractors to retain the workforce and ensure it is ready to quickly gear up to build projects which will be vital to New Zealand’s COVID-19 economic recovery, Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced today. He said keeping the workforce required to build ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • Government seeks infrastructure projects
    The Government has tasked a group of industry leaders to seek out infrastructure projects that are ready to start as soon as the construction industry returns to normal to reduce the economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, Economic Development Minister Phil Twyford and Infrastructure Minister Shane Jones say. The Infrastructure ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Health system scaled up to prepare for COVID-19
    Work to scale up the health system in preparation for COVID-19 was today outlined by Health Minister David Clark, as he reported back to the new Epidemic Response Committee. “We are well placed to contain the spread of COVID-19. We have taken early and decisive action at our borders, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Essential media COVID-19 guidelines refined
    The Government is refining its COVID-19 essential business guidance to include the distribution of news publications for communities which are hard to reach. The Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media, Kris Faafoi, said the move was in recognition of the importance for New Zealanders who might be harder to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • New Zealand defence personnel conclude mission at Taji
    Following the successful conclusion of the Building Partner Capacity (BPC) mission at Taji, New Zealand defence personnel are returning to New Zealand from Iraq, in accordance with the Cabinet decision made in June 2019, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Ron Mark announced today. “New Zealand is very ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • State of National Emergency extended
    The State of National Emergency to help stop the spread of COVID-19 has been extended for a further seven days, Minister of Civil Defence Peeni Henare said. The initial declaration on March 25 lasted seven days and can be extended as many times as necessary. “Since we went into isolation ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Strong Govt books support ‘go hard, go early’ response
    New Zealand’s ability to go hard and go early in the fight against COVID-19 has been underpinned by strong Government finances and the growing economy heading into this global pandemic, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. The Treasury today released the Crown financial statements for the eight months to the end ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Christchurch Hospital Hagley ICU to open to support COVID-19 response
    Health Minister Dr David Clark says 36 new intensive care beds at Christchurch Hospital’s new Hagley building are being fast tracked so they are available for treatment of COVID-19 patients.   The Ministry of Health is working with contractor CPB and Canterbury DHB to enable access to the hospital’s ICU, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government supports Air NZ freight flights
    The Government has fast-tracked up to $1 million to help Air New Zealand move urgent freight to and from New Zealand, with the first flight to Shanghai leaving tonight, Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced today. Phil Twyford says it’s crucial that trade in vital goods such as medical supplies and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Tariff concessions on COVID-19 related products
    New Zealand will temporarily remove tariffs on all medical and hygiene imports needed for the COVID-19 response. Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker and Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Kris Faafoi said today that the New Zealand Customs Service will apply tariff concessions to all diagnostic reagents and testing ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Clarification of modification to wage subsidy scheme
    Minister of Finance Grant Robertson has clarified that the changes to the wage subsidy scheme announced yesterday mean that employers should be passing on the full subsidy to workers, except in the case where the person’s normal income is less than the level of the subsidy. “We still want employers ...
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    5 days ago
  • Face masks flowing to DHBs
    Medical face masks from the national reserve supply are now being distributed to District Health Boards, while at the same time local production is being ramped up. Yesterday more than 640,000 masks were sent to DHBS – that is an immediate two week supply, with more to follow in coming ...
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    5 days ago
  • COVID-19: Further steps to protect New Zealanders’ jobs
    The Government has made modifications to the wage subsidy scheme to ensure people don’t lose their jobs during the national lockdown. These changes will soften the impact of COVID-19 on workers, families and businesses, and position them to exit the lockdown and look to recovery, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. ...
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    5 days ago
  • Tax relief for Mycoplasma Bovis farmers
    Farmers whose herds were culled in response to the outbreak of Mycoplasma bovis will be able to minimise the tax treatment of their income in some circumstances. Revenue Minister Stuart Nash says Cabinet has agreed to change the law. It means farmers may be eligible to spread their income over ...
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    6 days ago
  • $27 million for NGOs and community groups to continue providing essential services
    A $27 million dollar package, effective immediately, is being provided to social sector services and community groups to ensure they can continue to provide essential support to communities as we stay at home as a nation to stop the spread of COVID-19, Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni announced. “At ...
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    6 days ago
  • Statement on guilty plea of March 15 terrorist
    “The guilty plea today will provide some relief to the many people whose lives were shattered by what happened on March 15,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. “These guilty pleas and conviction bring accountability for what happened and also save the families who lost loved ones, those who were injured, ...
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    7 days ago
  • COVID-19 updates
    The Prime Minister is holding daily press conferences to update New Zealanders on the Government's response to COVID-19. Links to videos and transcripts of these updates below. These transcripts also include All of Government press conferences led by Director Ministry of Health's Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield. 25 March: Live update from the Prime ...
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    7 days ago
  • Police numbers break through 10,000 mark
    Frontline Police numbers have broken through the 10,000 mark for the first time in history as officers step forward to keep the community safe during the COVID19 lockdown. “Two Police graduations in Auckland and Wellington in the past week have been conducted in unprecedented circumstances,” Police Minister Stuart Nash said. ...
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    7 days ago
  • Urgent tax measures for economic recovery
    Urgent legislation has been passed to support the package of economic and social measures needed to recover from the impact of the coronavirus outbreak. “The COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill will cushion New Zealanders from the worst economic impacts of the COVID-19 outbreak,” said Revenue Minister ...
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    1 week ago
  • Further support for farmers and growers as drought persists
    From tomorrow, Government support for farmers and growers affected by drought will be expanded and extended across the country, with access to Rural Assistance Payments (RAPS) available throughout the North Island, parts of the South Island and the Chatham Islands, Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni announced. “These challenging conditions have ...
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    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Temporary changes to Education Act
    Parliament has passed amendments to legislation that give the Secretary of Education stronger powers to act in the fight to limit the spread of COVID-19, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “They are part of a suite of changes passed under the COVID-19 Response (Urgent Management Measures) Legislation Bill,” Chris ...
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    1 week ago
  • Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar join NZ and Singapore in committing to keeping supply a...
    Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar have joined forces with New Zealand and Singapore by committing to keep supply chains open and remove any existing trade restrictive measures on essential goods, especially medical supplies, in the face of the Covid-19 crisis.  Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker today welcomed ...
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    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Rent increase freeze and more protection for tenants
    Immediate freeze on rent increases Tenancies will not be terminated during the lock-down period, unless the parties agree, or in limited circumstances Tenants who had previously given notice can stay in their if they need to stay in the tenancy during the lock-down period Tenants will still be able to ...
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    1 week ago
  • Working together to protect businesses and workers
    As New Zealand unites to lock-down in the fight against COVID-19, the Finance Minister is urging all businesses and workers to stay connected over the next four weeks. “We understand the extreme pressure many businesses are under right now. I know most business owners think of their workers as family ...
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    1 week ago
  • State of National Emergency declared to fight COVID-19
    A State of National Emergency has been declared across the country as the Government pulls out all the stops to curtail the spread of COVID-19. “Today we put in place our country’s second ever State of National Emergency as we fight a global pandemic, save New Zealanders’ lives and prevent ...
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    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister’s statement on State of National Emergency and Epidemic Notice
    Mr Speaker I wish to make a Ministerial Statement under Standing Order 347 in relation to the recent declaration of a State of National Emergency. Having considered the advice of the Director Civil Defence Emergency Management, the Minister of Civil Defence declared a State of National Emergency for the whole of ...
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    1 week ago
  • Deadline for domestic travel extended
    People needing to travel on domestic flights, trains and Cook Strait ferries to get home before the country moves into level 4 lock-down tomorrow night will be able to continue using the passenger services until midnight on Friday, Transport Minister Phil Twyford said today. Domestic passenger services, particularly ferries, have ...
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    1 week ago
  • Mortgage holiday and business finance support schemes to cushion COVID impacts
    The Government, retail banks and the Reserve Bank are today announcing a major financial support package for home owners and businesses affected by the economic impacts of COVID-19. The package will include a six month principal and interest payment holiday for mortgage holders and SME customers whose incomes have been ...
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    1 week ago
  • Government working to keep air freight moving
    Minister of Transport Phil Twyford has today announced details of the Government’s support package to keep key air freight moving and ensure New Zealanders retain access to essential goods during the four-week level 4 lockdown. “The Government is working with airlines and air freight operators to ensure New Zealand’s key ...
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    1 week ago
  • New Zealand moves to COVID-19 Alert Level 3, then Level 4 in 48 hours
    New Zealand moved up to COVID-19 Alert Level 3 – Restrict New Zealand to move up to COVID-19 Alert Level 4 – Eliminate, in 48 hours Two-staged approach to give people and businesses time to prepare  Level 3, from tomorrow Non-essential businesses must close All events and gatherings must be ...
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    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister: COVID-19 Alert Level increased
    Good afternoon  The Cabinet met this morning to discuss our next actions in the fight against COVID-19.  Like the rest of the world, we are facing the potential for devastating impacts from this virus. But, through decisive action, and through working together, do we have a small window to get ...
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    1 week ago
  • Govt takes significant economic decisions as NZ readies for Alert Level 4 in COVID-19 fight
    The Government is announcing significant further support for the economy, workers and businesses as the country unites to prepare for Alert Level 4 in the fight against COVID-19. Cabinet today agreed to remove the cap on the Government’s wage subsidy scheme, which will inject a further $4 billion into the ...
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    1 week ago
  • Govt backs RBNZ move to support economy with lower interest rates
    The Government is backing the Reserve Bank’s latest action to support the economy by reducing longer-term interest rates, meaning lower costs for businesses and mortgage holders, and a lower currency to help our exporters. The Minister of Finance has signed a memorandum of understanding and a letter of indemnity with ...
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    1 week ago
  • Government statement on commercial cooperation during COVID-19
    The Government has asked the Commerce Commission to take account of the exceptional circumstances created by COVID-19 when monitoring business behaviour in coming weeks.   “The purpose of my request to the Commerce Commission is to make sure businesses can work together in ways that will allow them to provide ...
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    1 week ago
  • New Zealand temporarily closes diplomatic posts in Barbados and Myanmar due to COVID-19
    The New Zealand Government has temporarily closed its High Commission in Bridgetown, Barbados and its Embassy in Yangon, Myanmar due to the COVID-19 pandemic, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “Due to the increasing scarcity of air links in and out of Bridgetown and Yangon, and the pressure COVID-19 is placing ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Supporting Māori communities and businesses through
    Associate Health and Whānau Ora Minister Peeni Henare has today announced the Government’s plan to support Māori communities and businesses in the face of COVID-19. “Our Government’s $12.1 billion economic package will help many Māori whānau, workers and businesses, whether it’s through wage subsidies, income support and worker redeployment, or ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Guidelines for hospitality establishments released
    The Government and the hospitality industry have worked together to produce guidelines to assist with managing and reducing transmission of COVID-19, Health Minister David Clark announced today.  The guidelines developed between the Government, Hospitality New Zealand and SkyCity Entertainment Group, set out how the new restrictions on physical distancing and ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Nation steps up to COVID-19 Alert Level 2
    Four stage Alert System for COVID-19 announced New Zealand moved up to COVID-19 Alert Level 2 – Reduce Contact New Zealanders over 70 and those with certain medical conditions told to stay at home as much as they can to reduce risk of contact with the virus Workplaces to implement ...
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    2 weeks ago