It’s now or never – Te Ururoa

Written By: - Date published: 11:40 am, September 7th, 2010 - 33 comments
Categories: foreshore and seabed, maori party - Tags:

It’s a little disturbing to hear Te Ururoa Flavell saying that the Maori Party isn’t really satisfied with National’s new foreshore and seabed bill but will vote for it for now. He seems to think that there will be an opportunity to re-negotiate a new deal in the future. He’s dreaming.

Every party save ACT will vote for this law – Labour says its just their bill with slight alterations and different names, so they have no problems with it except that it’s a waste of Parliament’s time.

So, how, precisely, does the Maori Party imagine the issue will get back on the agenda? Both major parties have every incentive to consider the issue closed. With the Maori Party supporting the law, it will be seen as a full and final settlement.

Either you stand your ground for what you want now, Te Ururoa, or you accept what’s on the table now and let the issue go.

PS. You’ve got to love how National has renamed its foreshore and seabed bill the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Bill. They’re hoping the name change will mean the rednecks won’t know what’s going on. Well, I guess the same trick worked on the Maori Party.

PPS. What’s up with this Bill being tabled when both Maori Party co-leaders are out of the country? Doesn’t exactly suggest close coordination between Chris Finlayson, Gerry Brownlee, and the co-leaders.

33 comments on “It’s now or never – Te Ururoa”

  1. just saying 1

    Quote: “So, how, precisely, does the Maori Party imagine the issue will get back on the agenda?”

    In the medium term, as a condition of any future coalition deal I imagine. The matter may be “closed” but if the MP hold the balance of power I imagine some small concessions could be made.

    Maori have made amazing, if gradual, progress on their concerns over time. More than I’m sure most would have predicted. I believe they will continue to do so.

  2. Both major parties have every incentive to consider the issue closed.

    Indeed they do. But what matters is whether Maori consider the matter closed. And that will only happen when they see a fair deal. Until then, they’ll keep raising it, and National and Labour will be forced to keep confronting it, whether they want to or not.

    • Blighty 2.1

      how will the issue get any air time? Both major parties will just say ‘but you voted for this law, you can’t expect us to go through all that again for you now’.

      It only came up this term becaue the Nats used it to wedge the MP from Labour. The Nats will have no incentive to turn over their own law in the future and neither will Labour

      • Tigger 2.1.1

        How do MP voters feel about this? How many chances will they give this lot to achieve their goals before they start waking up and voting Green?

      • Idiot/Savant 2.1.2

        how will the issue get any air time? Both major parties will just say ‘but you voted for this law, you can’t expect us to go through all that again for you now’.

        With the Maori party expected to hold the balance of power in the long term and having a voter base insulated from everyone else’s, I think they can demand the major parties to “go through” whatever they want.

        As for “you voted for it”, there’s nothing wrong with taking what you can get and then asking for more. That’s how progress happens. The fact that people supported the half-way house of civil unions does not forbid them from supporting same-sex marriage when the day comes.

    • Lew 2.2

      What you say is strictly true, I/S, but by backing this they catastrophically weaken their bargaining position on this topic such that any future progress toward justice might need to be undertaken by an agency other than the Māori party. And we can be damned sure it won’t be the Nats or Labour.

      They weaken their brand and risk alienating their base, and (much more importantly) they cement the age-old notion that Māori are a laughing-stock — political amateurs able to be bought off with baubles and hatchets. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth, but that perception exists and needs to be put to bed once and for all. This isn’t the way to do so.

      L

      • Maynard J 2.2.1

        You say that they are not amateurs to be bought off with baubles and hatchets, but the very essence of this post is that’s what is happening, and you seemingly agree with that point.

        Of course, the Maori party are not Maori as a whole, but they’re the most visible politcal arm short of tama iti’s buttocks…

        • Lew 2.2.1.1

          The point is that this — and the initial post-settlement ‘sales’ of land, usually by people not legitimately empowered to sell it, who genuinely had no clue what they were in for — isn’t the whole story. In the rare cases where they’ve enjoyed something approaching parity in terms of negotiative power, Māori have historically done very well indeed. This is why the FSA repeal is such a crucial opportunity.

          L

      • Richard 2.2.2

        Sure, the individuals associated with the Maori Party might suffer some credibility problems with accepting this deal, but that has nothing to do with Maori in general.

        Think of this as like the history of the Irish Republican movement. Sure the British government offered various “full and final” settlements and deals on the subject of Irish self-determination. Some were accepted, and some weren’t. However, until the Irish got a deal that they liked the issue didn’t go away. It might die down for a few years (or a generation or so), but until the Irish got something just the issue wouldn’t go away.

        Same thing applies here. The government can crow all that they like that a particular solution is “full and final”; but until such time as the majority of Maori believe that justice has been done there will always be another negotiation. And even if the majority of Maori now believe that the settlement is “just”, that doesn’t mean that they (or their descendants) cannot have a re-think in later years.

        These negotiations are part of a much longer game than the current government is prepared to think about.

  3. toad 3

    Every party save ACT will vote for this law…

    I don’t think so, Eddie:

    Mrs Turei said she was very disappointed that the Maori Party would support this unfair law.

    “Repealing the Foreshore and Seabed Act 2004 was a founding principle of the Maori Party, and yet they have ended up supporting a bill which essentially repeats the same injustices.

    “I sympathise with the Maori Party who have found themselves backed into a corner on this issue, but their commitment should be to their people first and foremost and I am incredibly disappointed that they have chosen to support this bill.”

  4. Lanthanide 4

    “Labour says its just their bill with slight alterations and different names, so they have no problems with it except that it’s a waste of Parliament’s time”

    Actually they’re concerned that it appears to be exactly the same as their existing law, BUT that the Maori Party seem to somehow think it is different.

  5. Actually they’re concerned that it appears to be exactly the same as their existing law, BUT that the Maori Party seem to somehow think it is different.

    Tone and consent are everything. Despite the F&S Act being pretty much what we would have got if the government had sat down and negotiated, it was bad because those negotiations didn’t happen; it was imposed on Maori. The new bill is almost exactly the same (give or take a bit here and there), but it has been developed in consultation with Maori, after an inquiry condemned the original. Iwi seem happy with it, and the Maori Party think its largely OK. And that makes all the difference in the world.

    • Blighty 5.1

      The MP doesn’t think it’s OK, they just have to vote for it or admit they’ve been screwed over.

      Iwi were moving ahead with the old law anyway and are concerned about the deadlines this one introduces.

      “Tone and consent are everything. ” – in other words, style trumps substance.

      • Pascal's bookie 5.1.1

        “style trumps substance.”

        I think it’s more like ‘process is substantive’

    • Zaphod Beeblebrox 5.2

      So intent triumphs over content? Doesn’t that sound like an after the event rationalisation to you?

  6. The MP doesn’t think it’s OK, they just have to vote for it or admit they’ve been screwed over.

    And they’ll take whatever gains they can get, and come back for more later.

    “Tone and consent are everything. ” – in other words, style trumps substance.

    Laws are like sausages etc.

  7. toad 7

    It will be interesting to see whether Hone Harawira votes for it. I understand he is very unhappy with it.

  8. gobsmacked 8

    Election result:

    National plus ACT: 61

    Labour plus Greens: 57

    Maori Party: 5

    Hey presto! It’s back on the table.

    • Ron 8.1

      The problem there , Gob, is that Labour can’t make any promises about repealing the law in order to make a relationship with the MP.
      It seems to me that if the Left try to be principled about this, the shit hits the racist fan. If the Right pay lip service to the priniciples they’re statesmanlike and effective at working in parnership.

      The MP sold their souls over this issue – it’s the one issue they said was a line in the sand. It turns out power is more importanmt to them than principle. They’ll get away with it because the media won’t hound them about it. If they stand up and say – “we’re going with Labour bcause the Tories screwed us” it will become the same hot potatoe that led to the law in the fist place.

      I think taiana and pita will spin this to their voters as a small price to pay for the “advances ” they’ve made and they’ll survive. Pisses me off.

    • Blighty 8.2

      like Ron says.

      If either major party agreed to yet another revision of the F&S law, one which grants much stronger rights for iwi, they would be making themselves a one-term government.

      Labour would be inviting a racist backlash and National will simply never give the MP what it wants and won’t want to go through this issue twice in two terms for fear of stoking a new right party in the gap soon to be left by ACT.

      the MP can demand what it wants but it needs one of the majors to be willing to deal.

      • Lanthanide 8.2.1

        What if, instead of gob’s numbers, the MP had 10 seats? I think that might change things a little.

        • Bright Red 8.2.1.1

          what if they got 30?

          yeah, numbers give you power but while the MP is a minor party it can’t expect to get the F&S back on the agenda once it has voted for a settlement.

          • ron 8.2.1.1.1

            “…but while the MP is a minor party it can’t expect to get the F&S back on the agenda once it has voted for a settlement.”
            ….and who’s gonna vote for the pricks now? certainly not the liberal left who supported them last time. A Brown Tory party we don’t need.

            • Lew 8.2.1.1.1.1

              The ‘liberal left’, who are predominantly white middle-class educated folk, didn’t vote for them in either of the previous elections. They were elected by voters on the Māori roll who abandoned Labour because of the FSA.

              L

  9. ron 9

    well some of the liberal left voted for them – and won’t asgain I shouldn’t think. Yes we know that their voter base was driven bt anger over the FSA. My point is that in order to styick iot to labopur the MP leadership went with the Tories, supported an appalling right wing agenda and got nothing. So – will anybody vote for them again?

    • Lew 9.1

      Well, no. Very few of the ‘liberal left’ are on the Māori roll. Very few people outside the Māori roll voted for them (since doing so was a waste of a vote).

      The final question is a good one, though — yet to be seen. And the answer is, it depends whether the māori party’s much-vaunted consultation and community engagement systems, by which they keep in touch with their support base, are genuine and transparent, or whether they’re a sham. If they’re actually doing what the flaxroots — even grudgingly — want here (as the endorsement of the ILG indicates they are), then they should be fine. If they’re not, there should be hell to pay. At present there’s evidence both ways.

      L

  10. KJT 10

    All foreshore and seabed should be in public ownership. This could be done over time with compensation for anyone who can prove ownership rights in court. Some could be Grandfathered for the life of the current owner.
    More of a worry than customary ownership are the people who have fee simple title to foreshore and/or seabed such as port companies, who if Hide gets his way, will be sold ASAP.

    http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/08/19/clowns-to-the-left-of-me-racists-to-the-right%E2%80%A6/#comment-150091

  11. John Laurie 11

    All foreshore and seabed should be in public ownership. In the common sense meaning of the words there’s not a seabed or foreshore in the country where local hapus have maintained exclusive possession – how could there be when the whole country has believed for 100 years that beaches belonged to everyone. Who trusts our Courts to come to the right decision here, though? All New Zealanders includes an increasing proportion of Maori, who have benefited and continue to benefit from Crown-owned reserves as well as revenues going to the Crown. Foreshores were essential transport corridors when the Crown took them over. What each small local group lost in foreshores on their doorstep they gained in access to the rest of the country. The Labour Party should oppose this legislation. Labour used to believe in public ownership – what’s happened to them?

    • Lew 11.1

      Well, no. ‘Exclusive’ never meant nobody else got to use it — just meant nobody else had a claim to its possession. Customary usage by Māori historically included very broad and generous provisions for common usage, but that didn’t diminish possession.

      L

  12. John Laurie 12

    Broad and generous provisions for common usage by the next door hapu Lew? The one down the road? Half the time there was a state of war between them. Why was the Auckland isthmus and the whole North Shore deserted for nearly 20 years from 1821 to 1839? This is why the Government assumed ownership of the foreshores and seabeds – to provide access for everyone along these transport routes – part of the Pax Britannica. Wouldn’t New Zealand be another Papua New Guinea or Ethiopia today without its immigrant majority?

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    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago

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