Jackal: A conspiracy theory too far

Written By: - Date published: 8:15 am, September 17th, 2014 - 114 comments
Categories: election 2014, internet mana party, john key, national, same old national, Spying - Tags: , , , , ,

The Jackal-squareReposted from The Jackal

Just over a month ago, the Prime Minister of New Zealand claimed that an award-winning writer was nothing more than a “screaming left-wing conspiracy theorist” and in so doing hoped to dismiss all his exceptional work that documents the National parties repugnant and unconstitutional behaviour. The writer is of course Nicky Hager.

This seemed like a rather silly claim for John Key to make, especially once some verifying emails were released to corroborate the information contained within Hager’s exceptional and groundbreaking book, Dirty Politics. Unfortunately for the National party, John Key’s argument hasn’t progressed much since his initial reaction.

At the time, John Key also implied that the book was somehow linked to opposition parties and should therefore be dismissed out of hand. This was picked up by a number of his fans, such as Cameron Slater, who penned perhaps the best conspiracy theory so far in this election:

We can assume that Labour deliberately chose “Vote Positive” as their election slogan in full knowledge that Hager manufactured Dotcom fed book would confirm everything for them.

It doesn’t seem to matter to Slater that there’s a complete lack of any evidence linking Labour’s ‘Vote Positive’ campaign message with a book they likely had no idea was being written, or the fact that the author of that book has been very specific about the source not being Kim Dotcom. Cameron Slater, like so many other psychopaths before him, is simply judging other people by his and his affiliates very low standards.

Instead of basing his opinions on reality, the ever-deluded blogger runs with a conspiracy theory that should in the very least have him become an honorary member of the Conservative Party. You’ll recall that their leader, Colin Craig, has had a number of interesting conspiracy theories, including but not limited to there being no manned landing on the moon.

While the evidence clearly shows us there’s a vast right wing conspiracy to undermine our democracy, it was somewhat concerning to see John Key trying to dismiss the topic of the National party passing sensitive information on to their attack bloggers by claiming that opposition parties do the same thing.

As far as I’m aware, there isn’t an ounce of truth to such claims, which would put them firmly in the crazy conspiracy basket.

After all of that, it was hard to imagine the election getting any stranger. Then the Moment of Truth happened, which once again had the right wing going out of their minds attempting to clasp imaginary straws in the hope of formulating a coherent countermeasure.

John Key, in his utter contempt for journalism as a profession, claimed that a Pulitzer prize-winning US journalist had a vested interest in stealing the election off of National. He’s doing it for money, Key had accused, while Glenn Greenwald had already arranged for his speaking fee to be donated to charity.

‘Kim Dotcom’s bombshell failed to go off’ the mainstream media hollered, so nothing else revealed is true some of them claimed. ‘Let’s all just focus on Kim Dotcom getting angry about us not doing our jobs’ a number of National party lackeys reported, while not doing their jobs. ‘The Edward Snowdan segment was pre-recorded’ some right wing idiots claimed, which completely ignores the fact that he interacted with and talked directly to other participants at the live Auckland Town Hall event.

So desperate was the Prime Minister to find some wriggle-room, just hours before the Moment of Truth event took place, John Key threw a straw man diversion at the media in the form of some largely unrelated information. Clearly Key specifically declassified sensitive documents outlining the malware system CORETEX in the hope that the impending revelations about the Southern Cross Cable tap initiative called SPEARGUN would be sidetracked or not believed. But perhaps an even bigger PR disaster for the PM happened the next day, when he wouldn’t answer questions about the existence of another spying tool called XKEYSCORE. At the same time a former GCSB director, Sir Bruce Fergusson, seemed to confirm XKEYSCORE’s existence and use in New Zealand. Whoops!

However, the latest bad news for the National party, and their reaction to it, has had the right wing badly in need of a super-sized reality check…or perhaps some horse tranquilizers.

Yesterday, the NZ Herald reported:

National Party sued over Eminem copyright infringement

The National Party could be in legal trouble over its use of a song by US rap star Eminem despite its attempts to do everything by the book, a copyright lawyer says.

It was revealed today that Eminem intended to sue the party for allegedly breaching copyright by using his song Lose Yourself in its campaign advertisements.

The Detroit-based publishers of Eminem’s copyrights filed proceedings in the High Court at Wellington today.

Eight Mile Style, LLC and Martin Affiliated, LLC are seeking damages for copyright infringement against the New Zealand National Party.

It didn’t take long for the conspiracy theorists to start trying to link Eminem’s court action over the National parties copyright infringement of his song ‘Lose Yourself’ with opposition parties. They seem to be so desperate to dismiss any negative press that they’ll make totally unfounded and highly ludicrous claims without a shred of evidence to back them up.

Veritably foaming at the mouth, the National party, their propagandists and deluded supporters are looking decidedly stupid by promoting a bunch of conspiracy theories that are easily disproven. John Key’s only defence seems to be to throw unfounded claims at the media in the hope that the facts will be lost in the ensuing unbalanced spin-fest, which I might add is highly embarrassing for New Zealand.

In my opinion, such diversions and masquerades do not an election campaign make. I also wonder, that after Nicky Hager’s August 13 book release, has Nationals campaign ever really got back on track? Because by all appearances, John Key, like many of his parties policies, looks decidedly unhinged!

See also Chris Trotter’s “A working majority” with an analysis of  John Key’s strange ideas about how he can subvert the results of this election by getting the Governor General to force another election without first seeing if a working majority can be formed on the left.

114 comments on “Jackal: A conspiracy theory too far ”

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  1. Peter 1
    17 September 2014 at 8:32 am

    …… the truth of the matter is National will win the election because the vast majority want to believe Key’s imaginary conspiracy theories rather than think for themselves. Thinking for yourself requires far too much effort, and Key’s PR minders play this for all it is worth.

    • Kaplan 1.1
      17 September 2014 at 9:31 am

      They will most likely win, but they will either be a minority government or have a very low majority and they will not survive a vote of no confidence called when some of the inquiries that either have been, or are yet to be launched, are reported in.

    • Milad 1.2
      17 September 2014 at 10:16 am

      Yes agreed. It seems to me majority of don’t want to believe what Team John Key is doing. Although I think the next 3 years will be a very difficult period for National Party. That brand has been damaged forever in my opinion.

      • coolas 1.2.1
        17 September 2014 at 11:51 am

        Yep, National will undoubtably get the most seats, but forming a majority Govt will be difficult, if not impossible.

        ‘Dirty Tricks’ isn’t going away and there’s more Whaledump material to come on Key, Colliins, Tolley et all using Slater (and Farrar) to smear opponents. And Snowden/Greenwald are going to produce the material showing GCSB complicity in spying on trading partners, and mass surveillance.

        Whatever happens TeamKey is in for a very rough ride, and maybe it’s better National hobble together a Govt that will be disgraced and fall within 6 months, and then we go back to the polls with full knowledge of what a corrupt band of deceitful wreckers they really are.

  2. AsleepWhileWalking 2
    17 September 2014 at 8:33 am

    For some reason the link under the words [Over the weekend megalomaniacal John Key even said that he wants the governor general to] stage a coup to allow him to remain in power. shows on TS homepage but not in the post above.

    It’s important so please read what the PM has said (IMHO looks to be more of a conspiracy than anything else in this election so far…) http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2014/09/a-working-majority.html

    • weka 2.1
      17 September 2014 at 9:27 am

      I agree, Trotter’s theory (and I know others here have commented on it) needs looking at. I don’t know how possible what he says is, but in the past week I have been looking at the National govt desperation and wondering if they would try and steal the election. It would be entirely consistent with their past and current behaviour.

  3. scokpuppet 3
    17 September 2014 at 8:45 am

    Greenwald has not won a pulitzer …….just saying.

    ……edit ..hmmm I quite like the new handle.

  4. Roflcopter 4
    17 September 2014 at 8:49 am

    Except he isn’t a Pultizer prize winning journalist. Never has been.

    • weka 4.1
      17 September 2014 at 9:29 am

      Except he was one of the main journalists on a paper that shared the Pulitzer, and media convention is to refer to him as a Pulitzer prize winning journalist. Thanks rofl, because clarifying this is what it’s all about.

      • sockpuppet 4.2.1
        17 September 2014 at 9:41 am

        Point of order.

        The pulitzer prize for public service is awarded to the newspaper not to a journalist.

        • Hanswurst 4.2.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 10:09 am

          Yes, but being a far better pedant than you, I would ask who won it for them. Why, that would be the journalists who wrote the articles on account of which the prize was conferred. Those journalists would thus correctly be referred to as “Pullitzer Prize-winning journalists”. Now shush, the grown-ups are conversing.

        • dv 4.2.1.2
          17 September 2014 at 10:44 am

          HUH
          SO the building got the Pulitzer.
          Glad that is clarified.

        • left for dead 4.2.1.3
          17 September 2014 at 10:44 am

          Yes you are a sockpuppet,now do you mind sticking that thing over that,which you have your hand on.

        • Lanthanide 4.2.1.4
          17 September 2014 at 11:13 am

          sockpuppet, you might want to consider that this is a journalism prize.

          While we might moan about how useless journalists are when they cover topics such as science and politics, if there is one subject we should trust them to know what they’re talking about, it’s journalism.

          Therefore, if highly regarded journalists refer to GG as being a pulitzer prize winner, we should give them the benefit of the doubt that they know how their own industry works and we shouldn’t argue with them.

          • sockpuppet 4.2.1.4.1
            17 September 2014 at 11:24 am

            So we’ll be giving the benefit of the doubt to the PM and the spook master in relation to the GCSB then ?

            If you go to the Pulitzer website you’ll see they have no issues with giving awards to individual journalists……. Greenwald is not among those individual journalists. I do note that he has won a George Polk Award though.

            • weka 4.2.1.4.1.1
              17 September 2014 at 11:33 am

              That’s stupid. We should be able to trust the PM of course, but this particular one has been lying and lying and lying, and had been part of a smear team to lie covertly as well. That’s why he’s not to be trusted. It also looks like he is incompetent at the spy oversight part of his job.

            • adam 4.2.1.4.1.2
              17 September 2014 at 11:51 am

              Wow sock, you’re in full semantic righteous mood today. Many journalist get the title of pulitzer winner when the collaborate together on article, and pieces that are published. I know you hate KDC – you have your reasons – and frankly I don’t care. But, lets accept convention on this one ah, Mr Greenwald was part of a pulitzer prize winning team – hence he is a pulitzer prize winner. You just sound like a VRW nut job, with an axe to grind – and you think maybe people on this web site, are over that line of thought/behaviour?

              • weka …
                17 September 2014 at 11:55 am

                Yes he knows that, they’re being a trole.

                Shall we stop feeing it now?

                • emergency mike …
                  17 September 2014 at 2:50 pm

                  I’ve seen them all over teh interwebs in the last 24 hours with this exact same thread derail. What sad little useful idiots for Slater they are.

                  I don’t care if he won an all day pass for the Ashburton mini-golf park, if he produces evidence that Key is a liar then he’s alright by me.

                  And he has.

                  • weka …
                    17 September 2014 at 4:40 pm

                    Most of the time I like living in a parochial little backwater, but it’s times like this that I cringe. For god’s sake, arguing over the fucking semantics of how an award was given to an internationally recognised journalist while the biggest spy story our nation has ever seen unravels in front of us?

                    Sorry Glenn.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3
      17 September 2014 at 3:18 pm

      Technically the whining wingnuts are correct. It was Greenwald’s journalism that won the Pulitzer for The Guardian (he headed the reporting team that wrote the stories).

      He won the George Polk Journalism Award, described by PBS as “one of only a couple of journalism prizes that means anything”.

  5. Anne 5
    17 September 2014 at 9:18 am

    A statement has just been released from the Inspector General, Cheryl Gwynn where she says something to the effect:

    “It’s her role to check the GCSB for any unlawful surveillance, and thus far she has not identified any encryptions of NZ citizens.” She goes on to say: “she will not be holding any interviews until the inquiry is complete.”

    Now, I may not have the wording in correct order, but I’m sure the intent of the statement is as above. So, what the hell? What is she doing making a statement at this time?

    Was it a response to media demand?
    or:
    Was she coerced into making a statement effectively agreeing with John Key’s claim of no surveillance on NZers?

    My natural cynical instincts suggest to me it was likely to be the latter.

    • AndrewENZ 5.1
      17 September 2014 at 9:28 am

      Interceptions not encryptions.

      Why wouldn’t she be making a statement? It’s in the news and this is part of her job.

      • yeshe 5.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 9:35 am

        and I have a fine bridge to sell you andrew, with a view of where the cable enters at Takapuna — you’ll just love it.

      • Anne 5.1.2
        17 September 2014 at 9:39 am

        She’s only just started her inquiry Andrew.
        Bit soon to be making a statement don’t you think? Most luminaries undertaking inquiry work wait until they’ve finished the job.

        Thanks for the correction – encryption didn’t sound right. My hearing is not the best.

        • AndrewENZ 5.1.2.1
          17 September 2014 at 10:47 am

          This is not about an inquiry. It is her day job! She is supposed to know what is going on.

          • Anne 5.1.2.1.1
            17 September 2014 at 3:54 pm

            Her day job? Perhaps. But when did Inspector General’s start to comment on their day jobs just when the mood suited them? Never, as far as I can recall. They simply do not comment fullstop… unless releasing a full-scale inquiry finding where the public interest is of paramount importance.

        • weka 5.1.2.2
          17 September 2014 at 11:48 am

          Here’s the full press release, which helps clarify,

          The following is attributable to Cheryl Gwyn, Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security:

          “As part of my role as Inspector-General, I review whether the GCSB complies with the restrictions upon interception of New Zealanders’ communications and with the requirement to intercept communications only for authorised purposes. That review is ongoing.

          I am only able to comment on specific GCSB activities through my annual and inquiry reports. However, I can advise that I have not identified any indiscriminate interception of New Zealanders’ data in my work to date. I will continue to monitor these issues.”

          Ms Gwyn will not be conducting interviews on this issue.

          http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1409/S00378/igis-no-indiscriminate-interception-of-nzers-data-found.htm

      • weka 5.1.3
        17 September 2014 at 9:43 am

        She needs to publish a glossary if she is going to use spy technical terms in public. What does she mean by surveillance for instance.

    • Kaplan 5.2
      17 September 2014 at 9:34 am

      And no reference to the fact that the meta data is being stored in xkeyscore by a foreign agency, so technically ‘not by the GCSB’, just accessible to them…

    • Chooky 5.3
      17 September 2014 at 9:38 am

      +100… I agree Anne…looks like Cheryl Gwynn has been coerced…However other countries are not so sanguine about the threat to human rights by this surveillance:

      ‘Five Eyes’ surveillance pact should be published, Strasbourg court told
      Appeal lodged at European court of human rights for disclosure of intelligence sharing policies of UK and foreign agencies’

      “The secret “Five Eyes” treaty that authorises intelligence sharing between the UK, US, Australia, Canada and New Zealand should be published, according to an appeal lodged on Tuesday at the European court of human rights….

      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/09/five-eyes-surveillance-pact-appeal-disclosure-human-rights

    • Rick Bryant 5.4
      17 September 2014 at 11:34 am

      Me too. My first thought. Another apparatchik.

    • Treetop 5.5
      17 September 2014 at 1:20 pm

      I’d like to ask Gwyn what she asked Ede and what his answers were?

      What sort of information was passed to Key on Ede from NSA?

      Key could use NSA’s trolling to find out about anyone e.g. Collins, Slater, Hager and we wouldn’t know.

      Am I right in thinking that Key and Gwyn sign the warrant when they have perused the information?

  6. fambo 6
    17 September 2014 at 9:37 am

    Listening to John Key being interviewed on the day of “The Moment of Truth” his speech seemed to be quite slurred, like he was punch drunk.
    But like I was saying to someone on the bus yesterday, John Key is not an ordinary individual. He has an amazing capacity for bouncing back within hours from the biggest hits, and in some senses a brilliant mind. In some senses he is a remarkable individual. It seems his moral outlook has been his downfall, otherwise he could have been a brilliant New Zealand Prime Minister.

  7. SpaceMonkey 7
    17 September 2014 at 10:19 am

    John Key’s looking tired and worn out. My pick: even if National win the election this Saturday, all the allegations since Dirty Politics are going to dog Key for the rest of his tenure as PM. This time next year he will be in Hawaii having stepped down, much sooner if National lose.

  8. Sanctuary 8
    17 September 2014 at 10:47 am

    If Key tried to pull a swifty like Harper did in Canada he would face ’81 style riots.

    • ScottGN 8.1
      17 September 2014 at 11:07 am

      I assume you’re referring to the minority governments Harper operated between 2006 and 2011 (when he gained a majority). It’s not really a “pulling a swifty” since minority governments (both Liberal and Conservative) are a relatively common feature of Canada’s interpretation of the Westminster Parliamentary system. According to wikipedia there have been 11 minority govts at the federal level since Confederation.

  9. travellerev 9
    17 September 2014 at 10:54 am

    The Governor General trick worked in Canada just fine. So it’s been done before and remember we are not an independent Nation. We are subject to the queen of England and this is all about keeping this country lootable for her and her corporate stooges. John “I visited Balmoral” Key being a case in point

  10. Sanctuary 10
    17 September 2014 at 10:59 am

    “…The Governor General trick worked in Canada just fine….”

    I think we might surprise ourselves at would happen if it was tried here. You see, all bets would be off. An illegitimate government can be fought by patriots.

    • Lanthanide 10.1
      17 September 2014 at 11:20 am

      Yes. Canada has a bicameral parliament, and they also have state legislatures. The political structure of Canada is quite different to our simple unicameral parliament, and as such the outcome of such a move in NZ would be distinctly different.

    • ScottGN 10.2
      17 September 2014 at 11:28 am

      Prorogation by the GG (at Federal level) has also been a feature of the Canadian parliamentary system and is entrenched in the Constitution. To refer to the trusty Wkipedia again it’s original intention (presumably before the advent of airtravel) was as a method by which the government having concluded business in the House of Commons in Ottawa could release MPs early to return to their ridings in far-flung parts of what is a very large country. I agree that Harper’s use of it in 2008/09 was a pretty desperate effort to avoid controversy and a threatened vote of no confidence. That instance also put the then GG Michaelle Jean in a very difficult position.
      To be honest I reckon we have enough on our plate with this extraordinary election without dreaming up wild post-election constitutional crises as well.

    • yeshe 10.3
      17 September 2014 at 11:41 am

      yes sanctuary … small correction I would add — an illegitimate government WILL be fought by patriots.

      Key might not remember what he stood for in 1981 — I promise he sure as hell will remember and will never ever forget what he stood for in 2014 .

      • ScottGN 10.3.1
        17 September 2014 at 12:06 pm

        A minority government wouldn’t be illegitimate yeshe. As the guy on National Radio just pointed out, technically all of our MMP governments except the first have been minority governments. I reckon the only difference this time is that key is proposing to run his (potential) minority without signed agreements for C & S from all parties necessary for a majority. The last thing I want to do is defend him but I do think if his is the largest party in the House of Reps after the election and a majority (with his partners) is just out of reach he has the right under our system to ask the GG to summon the House so a Confidence Vote can be held. The GG doesn’t have to acquiece to his demands and could look to other parties to form a government (looking at you here Winston). If he does call the House the Opposition can always combine to vote the government down if they want and we’ll be back to another election.
        If there’s any reason to get upset about the whole notion of Key’s musings on this subject it’s that it seems he and Sir Jerry Mataparae have already had a wee chat about the possible outcomes and I think that the GG should stay out of it until the election has been held.

        • yeshe 10.3.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 12:57 pm

          Hi again scott — Is the point this ?

          If Key cannot form a majority coalition and decides to go alone to GG, is the GG bound, at least by our conventions, to invite the the majority opposition leader to form a majority coalition first, before returning to the House for a vote on Key’s minority?

          If GG does not allow this, it would be what I would then call an illegitimate government, not apppointed in terms of true MMP.

          I am watching Winston very closely on this. he knows how it works; the power to keep us stable after Saturday may well rest with him and his deep knowledge of the systems at play. Got no choice but to trust him, but day by day, I am more comfortable with it as this awful mess storms around us.

          Let’s see …. I appreciate your thoughts about it, as you know from the last few weeks. Three days to go …

          • ScottGN 10.3.1.1.1
            17 September 2014 at 1:54 pm

            Crikey – where’s Andrew Geddis when you need him…?

            The Confidence Vote is the test by which the GG determines which leader and parties have control of the parliament. I think that the leader of the parliamentary bloc with the most seats (as opposed to simply being the largest party) would probably get the right to test that vote first. If they win the vote then that’s all good, we have a government. If they fail the GG would then turn to the other parliamentary bloc and offer them the opportunity to test the confidence of the House. If they fail as well the GG would then call another election.

            • yeshe 10.3.1.1.1.1
              17 September 2014 at 5:10 pm

              @ScottGN …. over on Pundit now .. haven’t read it yet, but link at side of page .. can’t wait to see what he says ! find you later …

  11. Tracey 11
    17 September 2014 at 11:14 am

    steven joyce played guyon like a violin this morning.

    I can see why they use joyce. he turns the lies into plausibility and gets some ad hominem in to.

    I wish guyon in his interview with the IT guy had checked that snowden said facility not bases.

    at least tv3 played the actual clip…. facility not base

    • weka 11.1
      17 September 2014 at 11:35 am

      what’s the difference?

      • Tracey 11.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 12:34 pm

        if there is no difference I wonder why Snowden used the word facility and the media chose to attribute a base to him.

        Words matter and snowden did not say base. So the difference is snowden didnt say base.

        • weka 11.1.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 12:53 pm

          Or it could be cultural language use differences. Getting too minutiae for me I’m afraid.

          • Tracey 11.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2014 at 1:01 pm

            Do you think the US dont refer to army bases?

            Fair enough, i just expect that if people are going to report what someone said, they might report what they actually said.

            • weka 11.1.1.1.1.1
              17 September 2014 at 1:09 pm

              No, I think kiwis are more likely to use the word base than facility. Facility strikes me as being more American. I think we are in danger of getting distracted by such semantics when we probably would be better looking at the possibility of Key stealing the election (see Trotter).

              • ghostwhowalksnz …
                17 September 2014 at 2:34 pm

                facility is a sort of low level base. In terms of the NSA it could be the massive data storage centre in Utah desert which is ‘inside’ an army base ( Camp Williams).
                Other NSA facilities could be just a satellite dish.

                In NZ terms the NSA facilities would be located at the end of the SXCable, which is corner of Northcote RD and Akoranga Dr.
                There is a datacentre behind the liquor store, which is next to Southern Cross building for location acess. Bet there is a few locked rooms there.

                The northern location would be at the Warkworth satellite station.

                The trans tasman end of the SX cable comes ashore at Muriwai beach and continues to a end point near the RNZAF Whenuapai. I dont have its exact location

                These two points are the only way any outside communications come or go into this country.
                Simple really

              • Tracey …
                17 September 2014 at 2:58 pm

                The media mis reporting is in many ways the crux of this election campaign.

                Trotter spent a few years bagging the Left at every opportunity and a few days out he worries about Key stealing the election. Go Chris Go. And i mean, GO.

                • weka …
                  17 September 2014 at 4:43 pm

                  Trotter isn’t the only one to have brought the issue up. I’m not sure what to make of the deafening silence on ts. I guess I will find out what people think after Sat if Key actually tries this on.

                  • lprent …
                    17 September 2014 at 5:19 pm

                    That would be my guess. After all it is a hypothetical at present.

                    However if he did try that one then I suspect that National candidates would start requiring guards – from their supporters.

        • Anne 11.1.1.2
          17 September 2014 at 4:04 pm

          Tracey @ 11.1.1
          A base usually refers to a building or collection of buildings (large or small) which a group of people use to store equipment and undertake whatever activity they are involved in.

          A facility is usually a piece of equipment that could be housed anywhere which enables something else to happen… either at the place where the facility is situated or somewhere remote from it.

          Snowden was referring to a “facility” which I am sure was a reference to a piece of equipment.

          Key is referring to a complex of buildings and people – large or small. In short:
          He’s playing with words.

          edit: I see gwwnz has already answered in much more detail but will leave my comment here too.

          • karol 11.1.1.2.1
            17 September 2014 at 4:28 pm

            Snowden mentions the facilities at the beginning of his MoT appearance (1 hour 1min into the video). He says there are NSA facilities in NZ and “one of them” is in Auckland, and another one is in the north.

            So, it does sound like these are 2 NSA buildings, or part of a building.

      • Sans Cle 11.1.2
        17 September 2014 at 2:32 pm

        Base is something physical. Facility could be a person, faciliator, enabler.

    • ScottGN 11.2
      17 September 2014 at 11:40 am

      I think it would have nigh on impossible for anyone to have coped better with Joyce than Espiner did this morning Tracey. Joyce’s intention was clear from the get-go he was simply going to fill the entire interview with a continuous monologue that prevented any serious questioning. He does it all the time, you’ll recall the debate on The Nation recently. The problem there though was that in that instance he lost his cool and it turned into a bullying diatribe.

      • sable 11.2.1
        17 September 2014 at 12:12 pm

        The interviews I have seen from the MSM mostly fail to ask hard questions so its little wonder the whole thing becomes a farce.

      • Tracey 11.2.2
        17 September 2014 at 12:36 pm

        Hecame across as nailing everything he was asked. They know joyces MO, so why have him on to repeat the PMs mantras.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 11.2.3
        17 September 2014 at 2:28 pm

        Joyce: “It’s what it says on the tin.”

        Espiner “…and you can’t see what the ingredients are until someone spills the beans.”

        I enjoyed that bit.

        We know how Xkeyscore works – or at least what it does – from Greenwald et al’s Pulitzer prize winning journalism.

        We know devices are in place that enable it.

        We know that you have to have a warrant to use it, which means it’s in place and enabled.

        Key lied. He’s going to argue over semantics, and say that it isn’t “wholesale” when in fact that’s a very good analogy: a wholesale warehouse where all you need is the product code.

        Ah well, there goes the neighbourhood.

    • veutoviper 11.3
      17 September 2014 at 2:28 pm

      The constant references to Snowden saying ‘bases’ rather than ‘facilities’ has really annoyed me.

      I don’t have time to look up the dictionary meanings, but in my book/mind, I interpret ‘base’ as meaning a physical structure/building/place; whereas ‘facility’ can mean much more than this – such as phone banking facility. online banking facility, communications facility (eg phone, computer etc.) IMO Snowden was using ‘facility’ as meaning these types of things, not a physical place/building etc.

      (Note – I was educated in both NZ and the US, so my use of these words may be different to most NZers.)

      • karol 11.3.1
        17 September 2014 at 2:48 pm

        Online definitions of facility.

        Various definitions, including this US-specific one:

        MAINLY AMERICAN an area or building used for a particular purpose
        He works at the company’s manufacturing facility in Texas.

        This from an American English dictionary:

        an ability or skill at doing something:
        His facility for memorizing dates was astonishing.

        something such as a place, building, or equipment used for a particular purpose or activity:
        The new sports facility has a swimming pool.

        • veutoviper 11.3.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 3:01 pm

          Thanks for that link, Karol.

          My comment did not exclude the interpretation of ‘facility’ as being that of a building etc as per the one you quoted from the link. More that it can also mean other things such as tools, equipment etc such as this definitionn also from the link:

          ” 2 (countable] a special feature of a particular tool, system etc
          Do you have an overdraft facility at your bank?”

          The constant references by the media to ‘bases’ rather than ‘facilities’ as actually used by Snowden has come across as focusing only on a physical base etc.

          Must rush out again, damn.

  12. sable 12
    17 September 2014 at 12:08 pm

    Who knows whether people will choose to believe this man’s nonsense or not. Guess we have to wait until after Saturday.

  13. adam 13
    17 September 2014 at 12:08 pm

    But the assumption by Joyce is that working people are stupid – me thinks that is coming back to bite him on the bum. Puffed up self righteousness only holds for so long.

    • Tracey 13.1
      17 September 2014 at 12:38 pm

      Joyce uses an old closing submission to the jury trick…

      You preface how you want people to think by suggesting people who think otherwise are stupid. No one wants to be thought of as stupid… Or that people who agree withyou are intelligent…

      So he said ” i think peolle are intelligent enough to realise” john key is super and greenwald is a loser….

      • adam 13.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 12:45 pm

        Yes, but after some time, when that trick is used over and over it loses power. I get Joyce is a master at double speak – but – in a climate where he is being seen as the spokesperson for lies and liars, the shine comes off. I know he just want’s people not to vote – but from what I’m seeing the opposite is happening. The whole “don’t tell me what to do” part of our culture is slowly asserting itself.

        • Tracey 13.1.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 1:02 pm

          We will see soon enough.

          Companies spend billions on this kind of stuff, hot buttons, subliminal ads etc… Cos they work.

      • Treetop 13.1.2
        17 September 2014 at 12:55 pm

        The last freedom of self thought just may be, being endangered in NZ.

  14. Treetop 14
    17 September 2014 at 12:43 pm

    I heard this from Key just after 9am on Nine to Noon this morning.

    “We don’t control what other people get.” This was in relation to NSA.

    “GCSB need a warrant to get NSA information on New Zealanders.”

    Key being the minister in charge of the GCSB is in control of what the GCSB can get.

    I want to know what type of information gets passed on to the GCSB from the NSA when it comes to a citizen/resident of NZ.

    There is mass surveillance of NZers, if Key is not directly doing it, it is being done for him.

    For Key to somehow want to distance himself from mass surveillance on NZers is not being truthful.

    The GCSB legislation 13 months ago was designed to snoop into EVERY communication a NZ citizen or resident does.

    • Tracey 14.1
      17 September 2014 at 1:04 pm

      Heard that too. Its as close to saying

      NZers are being spied on by the NSA, not by me.

      Greenwald still says that is bollocks and it is happening with murual cooperation. More documents to come post election.

      • Treetop 14.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 1:37 pm

        “NZers are being spied on by the NSA, not by me.”

        Key does not want to take responsibility for duping the voters.

        I would like to thank Greenwald for coming out to NZ and trying to educate and inform the public on how espionage works. I hope Greewald sticks around until after the election.

  15. Richard Christie 15
    17 September 2014 at 12:52 pm

    where is Jason Ede?

    • Tracey 15.1
      17 September 2014 at 1:05 pm

      Has anyone asked the campaign manager, joyce, cos according to Key, Ede works for the NP… Or asked the NP president?

      • adam 15.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 1:12 pm

        That is a very good starting point whenever any journalist talks to Joyce there Tracey. I remember the journalist all over the labour party president back in corn gate and the like – but the interviews or questions of Peter Goodfellow have been few and actually I can’t think of one. Help me out someone.

    • brian 15.2
      17 September 2014 at 1:35 pm

      New Zealand’s own version of “Where’s Wally?”

  16. karol 16
    17 September 2014 at 1:20 pm

    NZ Herald reporting that Key says Snowden might be right about GCSB using x-keyscore to access NZ data, but……

  17. Ennui 17
    17 September 2014 at 1:46 pm

    I listened to people interviewed on the radio…they will still vote for Key. The common refraint about surveillance is “if you are not doing anything wrong it doesn’t matter”. The fools don’t stop to ask who defines wrong. Thus we accept creeping authoritarianism.

    • Newbie 17.1
      17 September 2014 at 3:51 pm

      So many people say that they having nothing to hide so don’t mind the surveillance or gathering of metadata. I am in the same boat and as far as I know have done nothing wrong. However that is a decision I have made for myself. What everyone seems to miss is that no-one has been asked. We have not been consulted as NZ public as to whether we wish to have our data collected. I no longer have any faith in this government (never had any in the first place) to keep New Zealand as a sovereign Nation and not the 52nd state of the US. Is this truly what we want? And as for the International joke that is on display as our NZ Prime Minister is a disgrace reminiscent of a school playground and not as a statesman that represents OUR country.

  18. Tom Gould 18
    17 September 2014 at 1:52 pm

    Obvious questions no chook will dare ask: when was the decision taken on CORETEX; who signed off SPEARGUN; and when; and how much did it cost; and when did it become operational? And perhaps, how long will an OIA request on these matters take?

  19. alwyn 19
    17 September 2014 at 1:57 pm

    I see that other people have been commenting on whether Greenwald won a Pulitzer Prize.
    I am curious about some of the comments in the original post.
    You have said
    ” an award-winning writer ” and “The writer is of course Nicky Hager”.
    Can anyone enlighten me on what these awards he is supposed to have won are?
    Mr Hager himself, at least on his website doesn’t seem to claim any.

    • emergency mike 19.1
      17 September 2014 at 3:02 pm

      Yes he does.

      “Exposing the Global Surveillance System
      Published: 1st February 1997
      This article publicised Nicky Hager’s book Secret Power and particularly its revelations about the Echelon surveillance system to an international audience. The article was picked by a European Parliament researcher and prompted a year-long European Parliament investigation into the Echelon system (2000-2001). It received a US journalism award.”

      • alwyn 19.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 6:00 pm

        It does say that. I had overlooked that sentence.
        I’ve googled Nicky Hager and award and I keep finding, over and over that “It won a US Journalism award”. Nobody seems to ever say what it is and I can’t find out. It is rather like Greenwald and the Pulitzer Prize, which was just repeated and repeated. At least there there was enough detail to check it, in the same way one could check that, despite all the repeats by journalists, David Cunliffe did not have an MBA from Harvard.
        Does anyone have any idea what the award was meant to be?

        • lprent 19.1.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 6:43 pm

          I presume you mean Secret Power?

          Try Project Censored 1998

          That took me about 2 minutes after googling ‘”Nicky Hager” award’ finding the book, Then putting the full book name in quotes and adding award. Then googling “Project Censored” after I found a reference.

          The reason why it was so “hard” is because the online world wasn’t set up to be so searchable back in 1998 and there are a relatively low number of references to such awards then. So they will be well down on any listing. I used to train MBA students in how to search systems like alta vista in 1998 so use different search techniques for lousier engines.

          It took me far longer to write this comment than it did to find that. You really just need to hone your search skills.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 19.2
      17 September 2014 at 3:04 pm

      Bzzt! Wrong, there’s a reference to an article entitled “exposing the global surveillance system” having won a journalism award, and there may be others for all I know.

    • Tracey 19.3
      17 September 2014 at 3:09 pm

      He claims a US journalism award on his website

      Exposing the Global Surveillance System
      Published: 1st February 1997

      This article publicised Nicky Hager’s book Secret Power and particularly its revelations about the Echelon surveillance system to an international audience. The article was picked by a European Parliament researcher and prompted a year-long European Parliament investigation into the Echelon system (2000-2001). It received a US journalism award

    • Tracey 19.4
      17 September 2014 at 3:12 pm

      I went to google and searched nicky hager and award… It took me to his echelon tagged page on his site. Simple really.

      Now back to the pm and his documents showing he canned spearhead in sept 2013, while stating two days ago he canned it in March 2013…

    • McFlock 19.5
      17 September 2014 at 3:14 pm

      nice try though

  20. Dont worry. Be happy 20
    17 September 2014 at 6:57 pm

    If this Government wants us to believe that they have never allowed mass surveillance of NZers can they please explain why they rammed through the TICs Act?

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