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Key can’t work with the Greens because…

Written By: - Date published: 4:37 pm, August 29th, 2014 - 85 comments
Categories: Environment, greens, john key, poverty - Tags: ,

mcquillan key greens

Those pesky Greens and their caring about the nation’s children!  If we could just fob them off with a few environmental bribes things would be fine, but tackling child poverty? Are you serious?  Why should I care about that?

Of course if you want to look at National’s environmental credentials, you only need see how many run-ins they’ve had with the independent watch dog, the Environmental Defence Society, versus their happiness with Labour’s environment policy.

I don’t think the Greens would be bought off by their maintaining DoC funding instead of gutting it, even if they ‘stuck to environment’…

Key’s painfully out of touch on this – the latest Roy Morgan rates Child Poverty / Inequality as the number one issue for this election.

So remember folks – if you care about our nation’s kids getting a fair go, don’t vote for Mr Key…

cpag march against poverty

85 comments on “Key can’t work with the Greens because…”

  1. disturbed 1

    EGALITARIANISM BACK AGAIN PLEASE UNDER A LABOUR/GREEN AND OTHER COALITION EH!!!!!!

    We never had crime poverty or hardship in the 1950s under Walter Nash so lets get real Keysters.

    • Rodel 1.1

      disturbed
      I heard a politician ( it could have been David Lange) say a few years ago say passionately, ‘ Its not envy. It’s not greed. It’s not jealousy. It’s good old fashioned Kiwi EGALITARIANISM!.”
      How good is that?

  2. Clemgeopin 2

    Labour : Policies to reduce poverty and child poverty.
    Greens: Policies to reduce poverty and child poverty.
    IMP : Policies to reduce poverty and child poverty.

    Just cannibalising each other’s party votes! Numbnuts!

    • McFlock 2.1

      a cafe that has three typs of salad on its lunch menu will probably attract more people than the cafe that only has a waldorf, day in day out.

      • Clemgeopin 2.1.1

        One of them has a few moong beans and many stolen vegetables and herbs from other hard working neighbour’s gardens. Easy pickings for parasitical opportunistic thieves.

        • McFlock 2.1.1.1

          “Thieves” can steal vegetables, but not policies.

          Hell, I’d prefer it if every party had policies to reduce poverty. No one party has copyright on basic humanity.

          Basically, your argument still seems to be that some former labour voters think that greens and mana will do a better job addressing poverty than Labour will. That’s not the other parties’ fault, that’s Labour needing to “grow better vegetables”.
          I reckon last night gave them a bit of fertilizer, though…

          • Clemgeopin 2.1.1.1.1

            Stop stealing and GROW YOUR OWN!

            • McFlock 2.1.1.1.1.1

              🙄

              labour doesn’t have a divine monopoly on helping the poor.

              It’s like mcdonalds is complaining because the local takeaways makes better burgers.

            • adam 2.1.1.1.1.2

              Rigid ideology there Clemgepin. Out of touch, egoist.

            • blue leopard 2.1.1.1.1.3

              Watchu talkn’ bout, there Clem?

              All things being equal I could have sworn Labour only started talking about ‘clean, green and smart’ policies for NZ a few decades after the Greens did.

              Am glad Labour have taken a leaf out of the Greens book, because it is a sensible approach, however I don’t think it would be fair to turn around and say that the Greens were stealing policies from Labour. 😯

        • phillip ure 2.1.1.2

          it’s called mmp..clem..

          ..it’s the left-bloc vote that counts..

          ..and if there is a consensus to fight poverty/fix inequality amongst all those parties on the left..

          ..wot’s not to luv..?

          ..yearn for the simple good ol’ days of f.p.p..do ya..?

    • crocodill 2.2

      Labour : Policies to reduce poverty and child poverty.
      Greens: Policies to reduce poverty and child poverty.
      IMP : Policies to reduce poverty and child poverty.
      National: Policies to increase poverty and child poverty.

      One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn’t belong… hmmm… OH now I get it, National voters just look for the exception to the rule and vote for that!

  3. fambo 3

    It’s nice to think that somehow despite everything that has been thrown at it over the past 35 years, the egalitarian heart of New Zealand may still be beating deep down.

    • kenny 3.1

      Well said Fambo. The sleeping giant has been roused. No matter what National try to do now, there is no turning back; the tide is turning and they can’t do a thing about it.

      WhaleOil and Kiwiblog can huff and puff all they want, but they are currently being held in a death-grip of public opinion from which they can’t break free.

  4. The RoyMorgan is here don’t rely on the second hand drivel from fairfax/NZ herald.

    http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/5754-new-zealand-most-important-issues-august-2014-201408290121

  5. Tracey 5

    I think he may live to regret relying on ” leaving nzers to decide” . I hope so cos he is missing the mark on alot.

  6. the voter 6

    The little fagot with the money and the spincrap well you poor bastards thats his own affair
    The little fagots got his own corporate empire
    Your money for nothing
    and his chits signed for free

    Weve got these rules about what you can have
    we are the rich that run your country
    We ‘re here for the international corporate community

    Nationals got your money while you live in poverty

    The ROCK STAR ECONOMY

  7. BM 7

    Greens need to get rid of the ocker and the gnome.

    Like I’ve written before if the greens stuck to environmental issues they’d achieve so much more.

    Should be irrelevant who hold power the greens should be able to work the current government of the day.

    • weka 7.1

      Funnily enough though, the GP making its social justices issues more visible has coincided with an increase in support. Fancy that.

      Of course the social justice issues have always been there, if you haven’t noticed you haven’t been paying attention. And of course back in the day when the environmental issues were more prominent, they got shit for being a single issue party.

      I’m curious about your comment though, as it suggests that you think environmental issues are important. What I don’t understand is why you fail to see that environmental protection is fundamentally impossible under neoliberalism, or even old school conservatism (although conservative values are important and have played a huge part in environmentalism in NZ).

      Technically the GP could work with anyone. But if they supported a National govt it would destroy them (membership would leave in droves). They’re simply not that daft.

      • BM 7.1.1

        The way I look at it politics it’s just like any other business sector.

        You have the big players National and Labour and then you have all the small players like the Greens, conservatives, winston first etc.
        Because NZ is such a small place having two major players pretty much takes the whole market share.
        Eg: Countdown vs New World,Pak n Save
        Warehouse vs Kmart

        Very hard if not impossible for a new player to enter the market and compete with the established competition head to head.
        Take for example trade me vs weedle, complete flop.

        The Greens need to go back to their roots and push the environmental polices first, that’s their strength and once they’ve been in involved in government for a while and people have got used to them and more open to their ideas then start pushing some of the other ideas.

        Trying to mix it with the big boys when you have no market share is a recipe for failure.
        That’s where I see the greens failing, they’re trying to run before they can walk.

        • weka 7.1.1.1

          Interesting theory (kind of) but as I already pointed out, they’ve become more popular as they’ve increased their reach across social policy, so you really are wrong in your advice. I do agree though that once they get in govt people will get more exposure to their ideas and get used to them, that they work and this will increase their support and they can start pushing other ideas.

          • BM 7.1.1.1.1

            Problem for the Greens is that they’re completely reliant on Labour, without Labour they’re never going to get a shot.

            Any business who’s future is tied to something completely out of it’s control is doomed to failure.

            • weka 7.1.1.1.1.1

              But the GP are more like an NGO than a business (in your analogy). Their whole kaupapa is based on cooperation, that’s why they work. If Labout and the GP were in a position of having to outcompete each other, they’d just lose votes to the non-vote. People want to see cooperation. This will be even more so as the old FPP generation passes on and is replaced by voters who grew up under MMP.

              There is nothing wrong with a L/GP coalition. It makes sense. What happens in the medium/long term I don’t know. Either the GP continue to cannabalise Labour’s vote, or Labour sort their shit out and grow stronger (more likely from middle and non-votes than getting GP ones back). I think the IMP will influence this too, whatever they morph into.

              In another 5 years the spectre of AGW and Peak Oil will be so in the face of the mainstream that it’s hard to understand from here how much politics will change. We could have a conservative, authoritarian backlash of course. Or centre could shif back to the left allowing the mainstream to get on board with facing the shit about to hit the fan (unfortunate imagery there sorry).

              • BM

                Only a fool thinks they can predict the future
                No one knows what the future holds.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  We don’t know everything, therefore we know nothing. Meanwhile, on Earth, planning works.

                  • weka

                    but, but, BM is saying that ideological speculating is the way to go, despite the evidence.

                    • adam

                      What Weka said – BM your a broken ideological record mate. 2014, it’s not the 80’s any more mate – we tried you ideology again, and it failed. What, we got to keep flogging a dead horse just to make you feel good in your ideological purity? Their are people and places which are that ideological pure BM – like North Korea and ISIS do we really want a New Zealand like that?

            • Clemgeopin 7.1.1.1.1.2

              Greens to Labour is like ACT is to National!

              Greens steal Labour’s social policies, steal Labour voters and THEN rely on the weakened Labour for power! Classic blood sucking parasites!

              ACT does the same thing to National in terms of hardcore economic policies though the impact of ACT on National is somewhat diminished these days.

              Labour does not NEED the Greens to tell them what environmental clean green policies are necessary,feasible and good for the country. The Labour party is not made up of a set of unintelligent, unpatriotic, irresponsible, uncaring, foolish, non far seeing, low IQ brainless, heartless members!

              • BM

                Exactly, all the green are doing is cannibalizing the left vote.

                The greens should be actively chasing the right vote and the easiest way of doing that is going into partnership with National.

                • Clemgeopin

                  Parasites find the easy hosts for sustenance!

                • weka

                  No, it’s not all they are doing. They’re also moving the political spectrum to the left. You really think that Labour would even be considering moving away from neoliberalism if the GP hadn’t picked up some of its votes?

                  The GP are also influencing the mainstream on both environmental and social policy. They’ve been very effective at this despite never having been in govt. This is why NACT hate them so much, because they know what will happen if the Greens get to be in govt.

                  And, the GP will be getting first time voters, every election since MMP (so they’re not even Labour voters unless you think that Labour has some god given right to left wing votes like Clem does).

                  You are still thinking in FPP terms. There is nothing wrong with having two large left wing parties sharing the platform. In GP world view terms, the more the merrier (ie increased representation).

                  And where the left will grow its overall vote is from the non-vote, and from shifting the centre left again and picking up swing and centre voters over time (that’s long term).

                  “The greens should be actively chasing the right vote and the easiest way of doing that is going into partnership with National.”

                  Why should they again? None of your theories have stacked up yet.

                  • BM

                    Lol, how many cabinet ministers have the Greens had, ZERO
                    For a party that’s been around 20 years, that’s pathetic.

                    • weka

                      And look at what they achieved anyway. Green politics has literally created a consciousness in the mainstream around environmental issues – think about awareness now compared to the 80s. Imagine what they will be able to do once in govt.

                      You’re old school mate, and your time is passing. We don’t get to survive on power alone, and I suspect you truly cannot see why there are other things more important than cabinet positions, because you think that power over is where all change happens. But you are wrong.

              • weka

                “Greens steal Labour’s social policies”

                How woud you know, you refuse to read GP policy.

                “Labour does not NEED the Greens to tell them what environmental clean green policies are necessary,feasible and good for the country. The Labour party is not made up of a set of unintelligent, unpatriotic, irresponsible, uncaring, foolish, non far seeing, low IQ brainless, heartless members!”

                No-one has said they are, esp not the Greens. Labour doesn’t need the GP to tell them what’s good for the environment, but the country does. If the GP didn’t exist we would be so far behind on environmental issues. It’s the GP that has pushed that agenda for decades. Labour is following.

              • mickysavage

                Have to disagree with you there Clem. The Greens are a professional party with some very talented and dedicated people within its ranks. And certainly in terms of left politics they are the conscience of the left in terms of environmental policy.

                The good thing about MMP is that it invites diversity and cooperation. On the right we have National hoovering up all other support in a classic takeover style. On the left there is more cooperation.

                It is far better for Labour and the Greens to coexist peacefully, agree on many areas and disagree in a civil manner in the areas that we do not agree on.

                • Clemgeopin

                  That may be so and you may be quite correct, but I do agree with my views which were stating a different obvious truth.

                  • Macro

                    ” but I do agree with my views.”

                    I should hope you do!

                    Many others don’t.

                    Your views regarding the Greens are way of the mark – you should get of your high horse and actually have a read of what Policies the Greens have proposed and have costed and have suggested how they might be implemented and the effects they will have. You might also consider that many of the most progressive Policy initiatives and changes that have occurred in the past decade (under both Labour and National) have been initiated by the Green Party. Despite the fact that they have never sat on the Treasury Benches. For instance, the most progressive social initiative in recent years has been the amendment to s59 of the Crimes Act which freed children from overt abuse by parents. You may or may not agree with that, but in years to come it will be compared to the outlawing of slavery.

                    • Clemgeopin

                      Then you promptly marginalised the author of that legislation, she saw the light and quit! Clean green cool bananas!

        • phillip ure 7.1.1.2

          bullshit..bm..

          ..you cannot have environmental ‘justice’ without social-justice…

        • Weepus beard 7.1.1.3

          The way I look at it politics it’s just like any other business sector.

          And there’s your problem, right there.

  8. outofbed 8

    I just wish the Greens would stop all that Environmental crap and just concentrate on social justice 🙂

  9. Autonomouse 9

    No doubt setting myself up for a torrid of abuse, but as an individual whom would be deemed to the “right” of the political spectrum when it comes to social and economic philosophies, I do wish I could have my cake and eat it to in regard to having the option to vote for a political party that would sincerely put the environment above all else. Surely an environmentally focused party would have greater success being in government as opposed to being deemed an outcast by successive governments from both left and right.

    An environmental warrior friend of mine (lives predominately off the grid and self sufficient) has become so disillusioned with the term “Green” due to it’s overwhelming political connotations that he’s changed his personal mantra from “Clean, Green and Honest” (that was actually written on the side of his hippy van!), to “Environment & Honesty above all else”.

    I personally love this beautiful country of ours and want to see the environment returned to its former glory, but jeez, the only political option available to us in support of the environment comes with a hell of a lot of extreme far left baggage that many (dare I say a majority) find rather off putting to say the least.

    In today’s MMP world which now see’s Blocks of parties working together, why not cut out the cannibalism and leave the hard left socialism to Mana, freeing up the Greens to focus on environmental issues which resonate with a broad spectrum of kiwis, the potential end result being more votes for both Mana and the Greens. Purely hypothetical I know, but isn’t that what politics is all about.

    • karol 9.1

      Mate, the Green Party always hard strong left wing policies and values…. since the pre Green Values days. So why should they give that up because some other left parties have arrived on the scene in recent times?

      Thing about MMP – if someone thinks there’s a niche for a party, go for it – a right wing or centrist environmental party, that is.

      Myself, I can’t see how it’s possible to be pro-care for the environment and not be left wing. Capitalism exploits and destroys the environment.

      • Autonomouse 9.1.1

        “Mate, the Green Party always hard strong left wing policies and values…. since the pre Green Values days. So why should they give that up because some other left parties have arrived on the scene in recent times?”, all hail to them for sticking to their guns, but they’ve been on either the back benches or opposition since their inception, so perhaps it’s time they took a step back and re-evaluated how they could best champion our environment.

        As to maximising pro-care & the environment with the right (or even the center left for that matter) ……….. the potential king maker surely has more power and ability to further their cause as opposed to sitting on the sideline year in year out watching everyone else play the game.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.1.1

          Um sure. How’s that level of calculated cynicism going to play out with Federated Farmers or Fish ‘n’ Game, say?

          The Right: incapable of playing the long game since forever.

        • Clemgeopin 9.1.1.2

          They have been in parliament for years with scores of their MPs enjoying the perks and baubles of parliament pay and stuff without any electorate or administrative responsibilities. How clean, green and oh, cool is that!

          And there is so much ‘fun’ in canibalising Labour vote as well as in scaring away new potential soft Nat supporters joining Labour, don’t you know! Believe me, that is what is happening in reality.

          Labour is getting a double whammy hit from the Greens on their left and the National on their right!

          It would be a miracle to be able to clobber up a viable strong left coalition government if Labour is not strong enough. Even if that can happen, the over-the-top demands, higher income taxes and carbon taxes etc may easily disillusion the voters within three years. That is what worries me. I would like at least a nine year left Labour led government to make long lasting great economic, social and environmental policies with care and caution, slowly and steadily. I worry about inexperienced cocky lapdogs trying to direct the big wise Labour labrador into different directions for all to fall into some deep political disillusioned ditch along the way and no one to care for the next few years!

          The fools were even keen to be Deputy Prime Ministers and Ministers of finance! Shows their naivety, cockiness and arrogance! Idiots!

    • weka 9.2

      “In today’s MMP world which now see’s Blocks of parties working together, why not cut out the cannibalism and leave the hard left socialism to Mana, freeing up the Greens to focus on environmental issues which resonate with a broad spectrum of kiwis, the potential end result being more votes for both Mana and the Greens. Purely hypothetical I know, but isn’t that what politics is all about.”

      Why do you think that the BlueGreens never came to anything?

      Like karol, I can’t see how true environmentalism can fit with the right. You can’t have environmental sustainability in an extractive, profit driven model, it just defies the laws of physics.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 9.3

      Can you cite an example of “extreme far left baggage” Autonomouse?

      If environmentalism has any validity that validity derives from science. We can measure water quality or ozone depletion or carbon dioxide levels. Physics, Chemistry, and so on and so forth.

      When The Lancet, or the Otago Medical School, however, discusses inequality in New Zealand in tandem with measured increases in infectious disease admissions, and further goes on to link that to poor housing, the reaction from the Right is denial and then out come the labels: extreme left, communist, watermelon, but a torrent of abuse is apparently beyond your sensitive nostrils, so I wonder, what are you good for?

      • Autonomouse 9.3.1

        With all due respect OAB, if you are even remotely in touch with the mentality of the many kiwis, then you will perhaps appreciate that there is (rightly or wrongly) the perception that a vote for the Green’s is as much a vote for a party with hard left social policies than it is for an environmental champion. By “hard left”, I mean in comparison to the traditional benchmark of the left being the Labour Party.

        Nothing sensitive about my nostrils, but there is a tendency of some contributors on this site to be a tad dismissive of those that portray a point of view that differs from their own. I commend Karol and Weka for their engagements and expressing their points of view in a constructive manner, 2 out of 3 aint bad.

        • weka 9.3.1.1

          I’d also like some examples. How about you name 3 GP social policies that sit on the hard right of traditional Labour.

          • Autonomouse 9.3.1.1.1

            Please note that in my comment I did not state that GP’s social policies sit on the hard left (you said “hard right’ I assume you mean hard left), I stated that there is a “perception (rightly or wrongly)”.

            You must appreciate and realise that there is a difference between the understanding of the those that immerse themselves in all things political (such as yourselves) as opposed to the average man/woman on the street whom has little interest in these things. If you asked the uninitiated as to their perceptions of the respective parties, how do you think those traditionally categorised as middle/right (or even middle/left for that matter) would perceive the Greens in regard to social policies? I believe it a reasonable assumption that many would deem them to be more “extreme” than Labour in regard to many of their social/economic policies.

            • weka 9.3.1.1.1.1

              ok, I’m not sure what your point is then. Obviously a large portion of the country believe that the GP policies aren’t best or they’d all be voting for them. You seem to be suggesting that the point of politics is to get the most votes and to pander to perception rather than build policy based on empiricism and values. This is probably why you don’t understand why the GP is a left wing party – they’re believe that the principles are at least as important as the power, and they know that their policies are based on provable facts.

              Besides, the long term plan is to shift the values in the country. That’s what they’ve been doing all this time. And they’re still on the ascendency.

              btw, they don’t talk about this much now, but in the past the GP wanted to step out of the traditional left/right spectrum. I have some sympathy for this view, and I can see the IP will probably pick this up again as it attracts people who consider themselves apolitical.

              Do you know why the BlueGreens failed?

              • Autonomouse

                Must confess to never having heard of the BlueGreens so googled it and it appears to just be an advisory group set up by National in 2012, so just the wolf in sheep’s clothing, or am I missing something?

                To clarify my original point, which has gotten a bit lost as we’ve been diverted by social/economic policies (which is apt given my earlier statement of perception of social/economic policies clouding the environmental clout!), I was merely stating that it’d be great to have a party that puts the environment first thus appealing to both sides of the political spectrum. The right is severely limited so far as voting options at present, so it’d be nice to have another option with broad appeal (aka not Act or the Conservatives), and the environment is close to many hearts.

                By the by, wouldn’t the Bundestag be an example of environmentalism working within the ethos of the right? I admit I know very little about them, but haven’t they been a political force within the heavily industrialised nation that is Germany for over 30 years now?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 9.3.1.2

          So, you can’t cite anything more substantial than tired right wing smears to bolster your narrative. With such feeble arguments, Lefties aren’t the only ones you’ll find dismissive.

          That’s why the Greens get my vote: when they get to the big table they don’t waste their wind on smear campaigns, and all you’ve got is Smeary John.

          PS: I have no use for your “respect”. It’s worthless.

          • Autonomouse 9.3.1.2.1

            Again, you’ve made a further statement with not much to work with so far as constructive engagement, I guess that’s the nature of blogs for which I am an obvious novice, I’m more used to engaging with people in the physical world where manners and courtesy are thankfully still prevalent. I wish you well for the upcoming election.

            • weka 9.3.1.2.1.1

              It’s one of the downsides of the standard. People who don’t like or don’t function well in an environment of conflict, rudeness and abuse tend to stay away which means that many voices don’t get heard. On the other hand, it does enable very robust debate that you don’t get many other places.

              If you want to stick around, you can choose to just ignore the people who are rude to you. That works fairly well in lowering the rudeness, but it does require a degree of discipline.

              Myself, I’ve been enjoying the new right wingers here today that have brought in a different perspective and style of commenting, it would be a shame to lose that.

              • karol

                Is it just my perception, or have the diversionary, distracting, astroturfing right wingers melted into the night since Dirty Politics was launched.

                I think one of the reasons for some leftwingers here getting abusive maybe because of the ongoing appearance of tr0lls, who don’t really debate, but aim to derail the discussion.

                Also, it becomes frustrating when right wingers come here, running the same lines over and over. Left wing commenters feel that we’ve pretty much discredited their lines of argument with logic and evidence many times. Yet some rightees just keep coming back and running the same lines. If they won’t take notice of reasoned argument, and keep sabotaging useful discussions, how are people supposed to respond to them?

                • Autonomouse

                  Hmm, I don’t wish to raise the ire of those within the Standard, but seeing as you asked how people are supposed to respond, my suggestion would be “thanks for visiting The Standard, we welcome constructive debate from all realms of the political spectrum, but the points you raise have been covered MANY times before, so feel free to search the site and come back to this post with your thoughts if you have a new/alternative perspective that would contribute to the robust debate that we encourage”.

                  The MSM have given blogs a fair bit of coverage as of late so there’ll no doubt be a few curious newbies having a look. It has been broadcast that The Standard is the voice of the Labour Party (I know that nothing could be further from the truth), but surely there’s no point in scolding the uninitiated as they could well be the swing voter the left needs.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    What? We have to be polite to people who lie about “extreme far left baggage” then refuse to engage with rebuttals? Perhaps you let people smear you in public and turn the other cheek, and I think a broken jaw is more appropriate.

                    Have a nice smeary day.

                    • Autonomouse

                      Morning OAB, obviously a good nights kip hasn’t diminished your fervour for confrontation. I believe if you were to take the time to read and digest the correspondence above, I did indeed clarify the “extreme far left baggage” comment in the context of a common perception of the middle/right (possibly even the middle left given Cunliff appeared to be quite clear that the GP wont be getting anywhere near the cookie jar in a Cunliff led govt), I even went so far to acknowledge that the validity of such a view is not necessarily correct.

                      Perhaps the use of the term “extreme” was a tad over the top, and it’s a pity you have chosen to fixate on that particular facet.

                      You’re free to engage with those posting as you see fit, but again, it you take the time to read the post that I was responding to, Karol stated “it becomes frustrating when right wingers come here, running the same lines over and over. Left wing commenters feel that we’ve pretty much discredited their lines of argument with logic and evidence many times. Yet some rightees just keep coming back and running the same lines. If they won’t take notice of reasoned argument, and keep sabotaging useful discussions, how are people supposed to respond to them? I responded to Karol’s constructive feedback and direct question in kind.

                      Your virtual world is an interesting one, no doubt having cracked the jaw of the underling before you, you picture yourself running your ringers through you thick, long, lush locks, wipe the blood splatter from your toned torso and cast your leg over your waiting thoroughbred to gallop back to your village for a communal feast with your warrior tribe. All power to you.

                • Once Was Tim

                  “Is it just my perception, or have the diversionary, distracting, astroturfing right wingers melted into the night since Dirty Politics was launched.”

                  +1 … very true – except for the occasional flutter after one or two have had morning prayers with Jamie Lee.
                  I’ve only seen Backbenches a couple of times (since it was commercialised, segmented and de-livened), but I suspect they’re not quite as active there as they once were either
                  Actually, now I think about it …. when I did attend way back just prior to TVNZ7’s demise, the various little RW cliques that were evident were really interesting..

              • mickysavage

                I have thought about this a bit lately. I think the tone has been set because of the numerous left wing/right wing troll debates and people here have expected debates to be bruising and personal. It is noticeable that more recently the original RWNJs do not appear so often. But the style of discourse remains.

                In an ideal world our discussions would be more temperate. But there is a strong imperative to allow people to say exactly what they think.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 9.3.1.2.1.2

              Yeah, run a bunch of smears and attack lines, refuse to provide any substantive framework, ignore requests for citations, then accuse others of rudeness and pretend they represent the management. That’s the way.

              “Not much to work with” – how about you provide the citations to support the lies you’re telling?

      • Clemgeopin 9.3.2

        When Labour is proposing a 36 c/$ tax for over $150,000, the extremist greens propose 40c/$ over $140,000! ….not for environmental clean green programmes, but for child poverty!….encroaching on Labour territory and inflicting a ‘feel good’ guilty conscience on every one! As if Labour doesn’t care about the less well off families and children in society! With ‘friends’ like this ……

        • Colonial Viper 9.3.2.1

          🙄

        • blue leopard 9.3.2.2

          @ Clemgeopin,

          Nope, it is good if the left wing parties and their supporters can accept differences and work together.

          You could actually view it in a different and more positive manner; the Greens, by raising that amount of tax (over Labour’s number), allow Labour to look ‘more moderate’.

          ‘Different strokes for different folks’ is necessary in order to represent the variety we have on the left.

          Being accepting of the differences amongst the left is also imperative, due to the variety that exists.

          • Clemgeopin 9.3.2.2.1

            “the Greens, by raising that amount of tax (over Labour’s number), allow Labour to look ‘more moderate’’

            But the harm in scaring potential centrist voters away from us and on to NZF or the Conservatives or the National does more harm than good for both Labour and the Greens as we NEED 50% voter support to even think of forming a government! Coalition compromises come later, but that can’t happen if we don’t get the 50% vote in the first place!

            Surely, I can express my honest very valid truthful views even if they are a little ‘uncomfortable’ for some callously climbing parasitical unthinking two bit Trojan tendrils?

            • McFlock 9.3.2.2.1.1

              Nobody’s saying you can’t express your opinion.
              Nobody’s even said your opinion makes them uncomfortable.

              I, for one, just think it’s illogical, simplistic, and quite frankly quite stupid. Labour’s already tried hunting the centrist vote. All that happened was some of us got a nine year breather before neolibs pressed back down on the accelerator for the car trip to hell.

            • blue leopard 9.3.2.2.1.2

              @ Clem,

              Hmm, possibly that might occur, but really the two rates are so blinking similar it is hard not to think that if someone is scared off by a smaller parties’ policy, that is not severely different to the larger party’s, then they are pretty flighty – to the point of being not very supportive of a left-wing slant at all.

              If you agree with centrist type policies and think Labour need to provide them, then you shouldn’t be too threatened by people voting for NZ First. Parties need to provide for a range of types of voters and then it is really left up to the numbers of people who vote, in order to make up the type of government that is wanted.

              If it is centrist that people want, then lots of people will vote for Lab &NZFirst

              (If it is centrist, unstable and corrupt – people will vote for Nats)

              It all depends how people vote as to the type of government we get.

              I don’t see the Greens as that extreme either, so think some centristy types will be attracted to their policies too.

              Don’t forget that those that tend not to vote are needed for the left to get in, as well as swingy centrist types, so there is a fine balance to achieve.

              You are obviously totally at liberty to express your opinion, yet you must accept that if people disagree, or think you are mistaken on some aspect, they are likely to jump in and attempt to suggest a different way of looking at things.

              I think the worst thing – the most off putting thing for any swingy types is any perception that the leftwing parties won’t work harmoniously together, not whether the top tax rate is 4cents more or less (!)

              Name-calling isn’t particularly helpful amongst friends

            • Colonial Viper 9.3.2.2.1.3

              Both Labour the Greens are suggesting a top income tax rate well under Australia’s. Get over it.

              • Clemgeopin

                Doesn’t bother me! Will it bother and scare some of the needed 50% of the voters is the moot point.

                • Colonial Viper

                  50% of voters make under $29K pa.

                  • Wayne

                    CV
                    Half of this group are on national super. It actually implies that couple on NS could have up to $58,000 but would be in your view poor. I imagine a lot of National voting NS couples will be in this category.

                    A fair chunk (20%) will be students. And another large group will be stay at home Mums. And most people on WINZ benefits will be in the category as well.

                    So it is a pretty poor way of implying that NZ is a poor and deeply divided country. In fact we sit pretty much in the middle of the OECD in terms of income spread.

                    • vto

                      That’s right Wayne, New Zealand is absolutely not poor…

                      Yet the dividing up of the nation’s wealth under current wealth distribution mechanisms leads to extremes of haves and have-nots.

                      It is these two things which your lot do not grasp, or intentionally turn a blind eye. It did not used to be like this.

                      Our country has more than enough wealth for every person to live a comfortable life – the current wealth distribution mechanisms are inequitable and need changing to more fairly spread the wealth.

        • adam 9.3.2.3

          Extremist, the Greens – are you seriously smoking crack or something Clem? Are you saying that with a straight face?

          Because buddy boy, the Greens are the moderates on the left.

          The hard left and the extremists like myself. Think that any income over a million dollars a year should be taxed at 99%. That tax evasion should mean hard labour, a year for every 100,000 dollars you rip off society – then forced to live on poverty wages for 5 years. With the inability to form trusts, own a car or any property as the final punishment. Yes, the effective removal of property rights.

          The reintroduction of commons. The removal of all inheritance. Desolation of all and any companies which have had any hint of corruption. The removal of the right to drive if you kill or seriously injure anyone whilst driving.

          Tax breaks for co-operative businesses. No flat taxes. Massive luxury taxes – the rich should pay for their shit and more for their shit than anyone else. Prohibitive Trade barriers, especially with economies larger than ours. Unions, which are able to bear arms. This would mean some of the shitty bosses out their may get a bit of utu. Chemical castration for rape – and retrospective investigations into rape going back 50 years.

          The demilitarisation of the police force. The removal of the police hierarchy and it’s replacement with people who have proven themselves to be honest and straight. The legalisation of all drugs. The shutting down of 90% of our prisons. A overhaul of the economic system – to bring back money as a means of exchange.

          Nationalisation of all and any land in foreign hands with the owners having lived off shore for more that 4 months. No more sales to anyone who does not live here permanently. Nationalisation of all infrastructural necessary business that have been sold off. And if the owner of any shears are overseas – then they get 1/2 a cent in the dollar return.

          Oh I could go on, but there are way more extremists views than the Greens. They are a soft, soft, left. You have been living in hard right land for so long you forgot what a extremist lefty looked like. Well, wake up son.

        • Murray Olsen 9.3.2.4

          I’d actually go to 49c over $150k, because that leaves 51% with the earner. Following NAct logic, keeping 51% means they still have control.

          Labour doesn’t care much at all about some of the less well off families and children in society. What have they promised to do to help beneficiaries apart from getting WINZ workers to smile? There is a heap of room to the left of them. I’m fairly sure that, if it weren’t for Mana and Greens, Labour would still be openly singing the praises of Roger Douglas.

          • disturbed 9.3.2.4.1

            100% +++++++++++ Murray.

            Someone talked about Blue green Gov’t working in Germany.

            In Germany they had several stormy elections in the past decade moving from hard right to centrist, and more recently now a multi party coalition of all spheres of the political divide, as left and right doesn’t fit well anymore.

            So this can be seen right now in N.Z. where the two major parties are giving away to a multi party parliamentary system of Government.

            National did this last time to cling to power, and Labour must warm to working with NZ First, Greens, at the least, and if needed any others that will fit with a centre left model or force us all to face another terrifying case of cut and chop of NZ economic base and social destruction.

            Blue green doesn’t work in Germany as my Son has been there for 9 yrs.’ and their employment quality is worse than here, he gets no paid rest breaks during his 10 hour days, and is forced to work extra hors when needed without notice, and wages are not increasing or very high either.

            He is a tradesman.

    • Clemgeopin 9.4

      +100

    • Bob 9.5

      +1 Completely agree

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    1 week ago
  • Using privacy law to prevent the death penalty
    In 2018, El Shafee Elsheikh and Alexanda Kotey - two British citizens who had purportedly been stripped of their citizenship by the British government - were captured while fighting for Isis in Syria. The British government then conspired to hand them over to the US, and agreed to provide evidence ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
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  • It’s Time For Disaster Socialism.
    Transformers: The disaster of the Great Depression was transformed into a new and fairer society by the democratic socialism of the First Labour Government. The disaster of the Covid-19 Pandemic offers a similar transformative possibility to the Labour-NZ First-Green Government. Seize the time, Jacinda! You will never have a better ...
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  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #12, 2020
    Tamper with The System? Well, we already are. But there's a difference between accidentally trickling sand into a precision gearbox versus formulating a plan to alter it on the fly with improvements in mind. One action is more or less innocently unscrupulous, the other amenable to earning an easy ...
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  • Avoidable hospitalisations: Helping our health system get through COVID-19
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  • Raise the Bar: 10 questions to ask your employer proposing redundancy
    Kia ora my name is Chloe Ann-King* and I am the founder of Raise the Bar, a campaign and non-profit that gives free legal aid, advocacy and tautoko to hospitality workers in Aotearoa. Right now all over our country hospo workers are being fired at will, having shifts cut or being ...
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  • An equitable way to support business
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
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  • Hard News: Together Alone
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  • Why timing is everything: ‘A time to refrain from embracing’ starts today
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  • Dealing with the Covid-19 Tsunami.
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  • What about renters?
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    1 week ago

  • Govt’s COVID plan, economic strength recognised
    The Government’s plan to cushion the blow of COVID-19 by supporting incomes, jobs and businesses, and position the economy to recover has been backed by another international report. International credit rating agency Moody’s today reaffirmed its highest Aaa credit rating on New Zealand, saying the economy is expected to remain ...
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    2 hours ago
  • Funding certainty for sports through COVID-19
    National sports organisations have been given certainty of funding to ensure they can remain viable through the COVID-19 pandemic, Sport and Recreation Minister Grant Robertson announced today. “The global spread of COVID-19 has had a significant impact on sport and recreation in New Zealand, including the cancellation or postponement of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    8 hours ago
  • Butchers now allowed to process pork
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • Essential workers leave scheme established
    Essential workers who take leave from work to comply with public health guidance are being supported with a leave scheme to ensure they will continue to receive income, say the Minister of Workplace Relations and Safety Iain Lees-Galloway and Minister for Social Development, Carmel Sepuloni. A number of essential businesses ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    22 hours ago
  • Govt WhatsApp helps share COVID-19 information
    A Government WhatsApp channel has been launched to help make information more easily accessible and shareable in the fight against COVID-19. Govt.NZ, which is free to use on any mobile device, will carry information and news for the public, businesses, healthcare providers, not for profits and local government. It can ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    22 hours ago
  • Managed departure plan for stranded foreign nationals enables safe, orderly exit
    The Government has announced a plan to enable the safe, orderly exit of tens of thousands of stranded foreign nationals from New Zealand during the current COVID-19 Alert Level 4 restrictions, Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters has said. “When we moved into lockdown a week ago, the ...
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    22 hours ago
  • Government delivers COVID-19 support to GPs and Pharmacies
    Health Minister Dr David Clark says the Government is delivering on its commitment to support general practice doctors and nurses, and pharmacies on the front-line of our fight against COVID-19. "For us to overcome COVID-19, we need community health services such as general practice and community pharmacy to step up ...
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  • Susan Thomas the new Chief High Court Judge
    Justice Susan Thomas has been appointed Chief High Court Judge, Attorney-General David Parker announced today.  She replaces Justice Geoffrey Venning who has resigned from the position.   David Parker paid tribute to Justice Venning, who he said had stewarded the High Court very capably over the last five years.   “On behalf ...
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  • Business Finance Guarantee – applications open
    Businesses can start applying to their banks for loans under the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme set up to support the New Zealand economy during the COVID-19 pandemic. “We’re moving quickly to protect New Zealand businesses, jobs and the economy during this unprecedented global economic shock,” Finance Minister Grant Robertson said. ...
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    2 days ago
  • Work starts on ways to fast-track consents to boost recovery from Covid-19 downturn
    Work is underway looking at measures to speed up consents for development and infrastructure projects during the recovery from COVID 19, to provide jobs and stimulate our economy.  Environment Minister David Parker said the COVID-19 pandemic is a serious global crisis that will have a wide ranging and lasting impact ...
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  • Advance payments to support contractors
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  • Government seeks infrastructure projects
    The Government has tasked a group of industry leaders to seek out infrastructure projects that are ready to start as soon as the construction industry returns to normal to reduce the economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, Economic Development Minister Phil Twyford and Infrastructure Minister Shane Jones say. The Infrastructure ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Health system scaled up to prepare for COVID-19
    Work to scale up the health system in preparation for COVID-19 was today outlined by Health Minister David Clark, as he reported back to the new Epidemic Response Committee. “We are well placed to contain the spread of COVID-19. We have taken early and decisive action at our borders, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Essential media COVID-19 guidelines refined
    The Government is refining its COVID-19 essential business guidance to include the distribution of news publications for communities which are hard to reach. The Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media, Kris Faafoi, said the move was in recognition of the importance for New Zealanders who might be harder to ...
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    3 days ago
  • Supermarkets able to open on Easter Sunday
    The Government is ensuring supermarkets can open on Easter Sunday so we can buy groceries, but stay closed on Good Friday allowing workers to take a break. This provides a balanced approach and ensures we avoid large queues that two days closure may cause. “Supermarkets will be able to open ...
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    3 days ago
  • New Zealand defence personnel conclude mission at Taji
    Following the successful conclusion of the Building Partner Capacity (BPC) mission at Taji, New Zealand defence personnel are returning to New Zealand from Iraq, in accordance with the Cabinet decision made in June 2019, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Ron Mark announced today. “New Zealand is very ...
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    3 days ago
  • State of National Emergency extended
    The State of National Emergency to help stop the spread of COVID-19 has been extended for a further seven days, Minister of Civil Defence Peeni Henare said. The initial declaration on March 25 lasted seven days and can be extended as many times as necessary. “Since we went into isolation ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Strong Govt books support ‘go hard, go early’ response
    New Zealand’s ability to go hard and go early in the fight against COVID-19 has been underpinned by strong Government finances and the growing economy heading into this global pandemic, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. The Treasury today released the Crown financial statements for the eight months to the end ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Christchurch Hospital Hagley ICU to open to support COVID-19 response
    Health Minister Dr David Clark says 36 new intensive care beds at Christchurch Hospital’s new Hagley building are being fast tracked so they are available for treatment of COVID-19 patients.   The Ministry of Health is working with contractor CPB and Canterbury DHB to enable access to the hospital’s ICU, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government supports Air NZ freight flights
    The Government has fast-tracked up to $1 million to help Air New Zealand move urgent freight to and from New Zealand, with the first flight to Shanghai leaving tonight, Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced today. Phil Twyford says it’s crucial that trade in vital goods such as medical supplies and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Tariff concessions on COVID-19 related products
    New Zealand will temporarily remove tariffs on all medical and hygiene imports needed for the COVID-19 response. Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker and Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Kris Faafoi said today that the New Zealand Customs Service will apply tariff concessions to all diagnostic reagents and testing ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Clarification of modification to wage subsidy scheme
    Minister of Finance Grant Robertson has clarified that the changes to the wage subsidy scheme announced yesterday mean that employers should be passing on the full subsidy to workers, except in the case where the person’s normal income is less than the level of the subsidy. “We still want employers ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Face masks flowing to DHBs
    Medical face masks from the national reserve supply are now being distributed to District Health Boards, while at the same time local production is being ramped up. Yesterday more than 640,000 masks were sent to DHBS – that is an immediate two week supply, with more to follow in coming ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • COVID-19: Further steps to protect New Zealanders’ jobs
    The Government has made modifications to the wage subsidy scheme to ensure people don’t lose their jobs during the national lockdown. These changes will soften the impact of COVID-19 on workers, families and businesses, and position them to exit the lockdown and look to recovery, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Tax relief for Mycoplasma Bovis farmers
    Farmers whose herds were culled in response to the outbreak of Mycoplasma bovis will be able to minimise the tax treatment of their income in some circumstances. Revenue Minister Stuart Nash says Cabinet has agreed to change the law. It means farmers may be eligible to spread their income over ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • $27 million for NGOs and community groups to continue providing essential services
    A $27 million dollar package, effective immediately, is being provided to social sector services and community groups to ensure they can continue to provide essential support to communities as we stay at home as a nation to stop the spread of COVID-19, Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni announced. “At ...
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    1 week ago
  • Statement on guilty plea of March 15 terrorist
    “The guilty plea today will provide some relief to the many people whose lives were shattered by what happened on March 15,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. “These guilty pleas and conviction bring accountability for what happened and also save the families who lost loved ones, those who were injured, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19 updates
    The Prime Minister is holding daily press conferences to update New Zealanders on the Government's response to COVID-19. Links to videos and transcripts of these updates below. These transcripts also include All of Government press conferences led by Director Ministry of Health's Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield. 25 March: Live update from the Prime ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Police numbers break through 10,000 mark
    Frontline Police numbers have broken through the 10,000 mark for the first time in history as officers step forward to keep the community safe during the COVID19 lockdown. “Two Police graduations in Auckland and Wellington in the past week have been conducted in unprecedented circumstances,” Police Minister Stuart Nash said. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Urgent tax measures for economic recovery
    Urgent legislation has been passed to support the package of economic and social measures needed to recover from the impact of the coronavirus outbreak. “The COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill will cushion New Zealanders from the worst economic impacts of the COVID-19 outbreak,” said Revenue Minister ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Further support for farmers and growers as drought persists
    From tomorrow, Government support for farmers and growers affected by drought will be expanded and extended across the country, with access to Rural Assistance Payments (RAPS) available throughout the North Island, parts of the South Island and the Chatham Islands, Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni announced. “These challenging conditions have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Temporary changes to Education Act
    Parliament has passed amendments to legislation that give the Secretary of Education stronger powers to act in the fight to limit the spread of COVID-19, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “They are part of a suite of changes passed under the COVID-19 Response (Urgent Management Measures) Legislation Bill,” Chris ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar join NZ and Singapore in committing to keeping supply a...
    Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar have joined forces with New Zealand and Singapore by committing to keep supply chains open and remove any existing trade restrictive measures on essential goods, especially medical supplies, in the face of the Covid-19 crisis.  Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker today welcomed ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Rent increase freeze and more protection for tenants
    Immediate freeze on rent increases Tenancies will not be terminated during the lock-down period, unless the parties agree, or in limited circumstances Tenants who had previously given notice can stay in their if they need to stay in the tenancy during the lock-down period Tenants will still be able to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Working together to protect businesses and workers
    As New Zealand unites to lock-down in the fight against COVID-19, the Finance Minister is urging all businesses and workers to stay connected over the next four weeks. “We understand the extreme pressure many businesses are under right now. I know most business owners think of their workers as family ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • State of National Emergency declared to fight COVID-19
    A State of National Emergency has been declared across the country as the Government pulls out all the stops to curtail the spread of COVID-19. “Today we put in place our country’s second ever State of National Emergency as we fight a global pandemic, save New Zealanders’ lives and prevent ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister’s statement on State of National Emergency and Epidemic Notice
    Mr Speaker I wish to make a Ministerial Statement under Standing Order 347 in relation to the recent declaration of a State of National Emergency. Having considered the advice of the Director Civil Defence Emergency Management, the Minister of Civil Defence declared a State of National Emergency for the whole of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Deadline for domestic travel extended
    People needing to travel on domestic flights, trains and Cook Strait ferries to get home before the country moves into level 4 lock-down tomorrow night will be able to continue using the passenger services until midnight on Friday, Transport Minister Phil Twyford said today. Domestic passenger services, particularly ferries, have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Mortgage holiday and business finance support schemes to cushion COVID impacts
    The Government, retail banks and the Reserve Bank are today announcing a major financial support package for home owners and businesses affected by the economic impacts of COVID-19. The package will include a six month principal and interest payment holiday for mortgage holders and SME customers whose incomes have been ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government working to keep air freight moving
    Minister of Transport Phil Twyford has today announced details of the Government’s support package to keep key air freight moving and ensure New Zealanders retain access to essential goods during the four-week level 4 lockdown. “The Government is working with airlines and air freight operators to ensure New Zealand’s key ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago