Khashoggi

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1. soddenleaf 1

   17 October 2018 at 1:32 pm

   how this matters to me. There is a civic order issue at the beginning, before the murder, before the rendition. That a official in SA decided opponents could not get married, so not have legitimate children, so we’re classed as untouchable. Every critic is going to worry now that they have no secure assistance when travelling abroad. Sure rendering by the US was shocking, but this is far worse, this is an attack on family, were no impunity, no restriction, was ever consider out of consideration. Fist they came for him to stop him marrying, then they came for his liberty, then for his life. Nobody should look at Saudi Arabia favorably, as they have crossed a new line.
   Of course. NK did start this shit, but even they had the forethought to keep it in a public airport.
2. joe90 2

   17 October 2018 at 1:34 pm

   Interesting thread on Khashoggi’s origins and connections.

   Okay, here's a THREAD, because people have been asking me for one, about Jamal Khashoggi's little-known Turkish ancestry, Arabized Turkish surnames, and the overlooked interconnectedness of the Ottoman world.— Eli Lee (@elilee_) October 12, 2018

   https://twitter.com/elilee_/status/1050740355145056257

   https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1050740355145056257.html
3. marty mars 3

   17 October 2018 at 1:36 pm

   Sorry that was me that stuffed up. I pulled my comment before realising someone had replyed. Sorry.
   • cleangreen 3.1

     18 October 2018 at 6:30 am

     100%
4. soddenleaf 4

   17 October 2018 at 1:53 pm

   how this matters to me. There is a civic order issue at the beginning, before the murder, before the rendition. That a official in SA decided opponents could not get married, so not have legitimate children, so are classed as untouchable. Every critic is going to worry now that they have no secure assistance when travelling abroad. Sure rendering by the US was shocking, but this is far worse, this is an attack on family, were no impunity, no restriction, was ever consider out of consideration. First they came for him to stop him marrying, then they came for his liberty, then for his life. Nobody should look at Saudi Arabia favorably, as they have crossed a new line.
   Of course. NK did start this shit, but even they had the forethought to keep it in a public airport.
   • Kevin 4.1

     18 October 2018 at 10:28 am

     Agreed soddenleaf.

     Not sure what the relevance is over his political leanings or his writings but using an embassy as a place to trap, murder and dismember someone who is a resident of another country is beyond the pale.

     Imagine if Assange was treated the same way in London.
     • joe90 4.1.1

       18 October 2018 at 10:34 am

       Well, the Ecuadorians are being rather beastly to Jules.

       https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/oct/16/ecuador-embassy-tells-assange-clean-bathroom-feed-the-cat-do-laundry
     • soddenleaf 4.1.2

       20 October 2018 at 11:29 am

       NK brother? of the great leader, Khashoggi close to royal family, perplexed Assauge not Ecuadorian…

       Does however raise the point. This was a very angry response, personal even, that Khashoggi familiarity with the royal family got him attention that caused his death, gif,n the reaction, clearly the Saudi royals concur with the murderers, since their concern is to obfuscate not assist in the discovery of a missing subject.
5. Dennis Frank 5

   17 October 2018 at 2:19 pm

   I only watched ten minutes or so, bailed out when they shifted into other topics. The crux of it is his theory that a century of collective leadership morphed into total control by the Crown Prince last year, and Kashoggi was using his independent media position in the USA to tread on the toes of this new ruler.

   “He was appointed Crown Prince in June 2017 following his father’s decision to remove Muhammad bin Nayef from all positions, making Mohammed bin Salman heir apparent to the throne.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_bin_Salman

   “Prince Mohammed’s ideology has been described as nationalist and populist, with a conservative attitude towards politics, and a liberal stance on economic and social issues. It has been heavily influenced by the views of Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed.”

   He controls their oil industry: “In April 2015, Prince Mohammed bin Salman was given control over Saudi Aramco by royal decree following his appointment as deputy crown prince. In 2018 he voiced his support for a Jewish homeland. Saudi Arabia does not recognize Israel. This is the first time that a senior Saudi royal has expressed such sentiments publicly.”

   Interesting that his father, current monarch of Saudi Arabia, allows him to express such a dissident view in public. One suspects he’s using his son as a trial balloon, to see how it flies in the winds of regime opinion, as a tentative precursor to a regional political realignment involving a more flexible foreign policy based on realpolitik rather than fundamentalism.
   • Bill 5.1

     17 October 2018 at 2:31 pm

     …and Kashoggi was using his independent media position in the USA to tread on the toes of this new ruler

     No. The point made is that he never did/said anything to upset the Crown Prince and even sought to be an advisor to him when his “sponsor” (one of the other princes) was “removed” from his position of influence.

     Maybe reading the article I linked to (Hell, it’s even headered ” Khashoggi Was No Critic of Saudi Regime“) would avoid drawing incorrect conclusions off the back of half watching an interview?

     Here’s the pertinent bit from the article.

     Khashoggi’s vision was an “Arab uprising” led by the Saudi regime. In his Arabic writings he backed MbS’s “reforms” and even his “war on corruption,” derided in the region and beyond. He thought that MbS’s arrests of the princes in the Ritz were legitimate (though he mildly criticized them in a Post column) even as his last sponsoring prince, Al-Walid bin Talal, was locked up in the luxury hotel. Khashoggi even wanted to be an advisor to MbS, who did not trust him and turned him down.
     • marty mars 5.1.1

       17 October 2018 at 3:21 pm

       How does, “The point made is that he never did/said anything to upset the Crown Prince”

       Fit with

       Asked whether Saudi Arabia could ever become democratic under bin Salman, popularly known in the West as MBS, Khashoggi said: “Not on his watch. I haven’t heard him make even the slightest inference that he would open the country for power-sharing, for democracy.”

       https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/khashoggi-saudi-arabia-democracy-mbs-watch-180323103543171.html

       For a thin skinned man that is devastating criticism especially if he wants to be a fake reformer.
       • Bill 5.1.1.1

         17 October 2018 at 3:30 pm

         Where’s the disapproval?

         Khashoggi was asked a question and answered it, but gave no indication that he disapproved of the Crown Princes approach (or non-approach) to democracy. And….well, given the man’s history, I can’t see where being a noble advocate for democracy would come into his thinking.
         • marty mars 5.1.1.1.1

           17 October 2018 at 3:36 pm

           You think the Prince wouldn’t be pissed off or ‘upset’ by that statement?
           • Bill 5.1.1.1.1.1

             17 October 2018 at 3:45 pm

             If the Crown Prince couldn’t give a crap about democracy, why would he be pissed off at someone like Khoshoggi merely stating that he had never heard him say anything about introducing democracy….in a weird and fucked up theocracy that jails and disappears women for having the audacity to demand the right to drive cars?
             • marty mars …

               17 October 2018 at 3:50 pm

               I think the Prince would be upset by what he said – enough to send the team over and chop him up alive? I’d say so. You don’t agree – why did they kill him then?

               Anyway the question about him never staying anything to upset the Prince is self evidently false.
               • Bill …

                 17 October 2018 at 4:25 pm

                 Self evidently wrong?

                 You threw up an example that needs injections of subjectivity and assertion before it even begins to approach evidence of some level of dissidence.

                 And if you listen to the interview that quote was lifted from, you’ll hear Khashoggi openly state that he himself is not calling for democracy , that he supports the Crown Prince, but that he believes the Crown Prince has ‘silenced’ people unnecessarily because they would also support him if they were allowed to talk.

                 You may or may not want to take into account that the princes Khashoggi aligned with, and that his livelihood and influence depended on, were among the silenced and disempowered.

                 And that is from a time when he’s already in exile and therefor much more able to speak freely.

                 The precise reason he was killed? Or whether he was meant to be killed? (And that’s assuming he has been.) I don’t know.

                 But nothing – in spite of the spin being put on it by mainstream western media, was visited on him for being some kind of righteous crusader seeking to bring any kind of western liberal democracy to the kingdom, or for seeking any grand expansion of freedoms, or for talking truth to power – none of that stuff.
                 • marty mars …

                   17 October 2018 at 4:43 pm

                   I believe the turkish authorities have the tapes of the killing. They’ll be along soon then you’ll be able to put your doubts to rest.

                   I put the quick example up I found simply because saying he never said or did anything to upset the Prince seemed bizarre- still does.
                   • Bill …

                     17 October 2018 at 5:01 pm

                     I say I’m making an assumption. That’s not the same as doubt marty.

                     But anyway. The other guy in the studio (a lovely expression of humanity btw) in the same interview, and responding to the same question-

                     Mehdi Hasan – On his watch, is SA ever going to become democratic?

                     Ali Shihabi – That is theoretic talk. It’s not going towards democracy. Saudi Arabia should go towards its better governance And the whole point about democracy [unclear] is it has not worked

                     And here’s a link to the interview.
                   • marty mars …

                     17 October 2018 at 5:28 pm

                     Thanks
                   • Ed …

                     17 October 2018 at 9:36 pm

                     Yes sounds absolutely gruesome.

                     ‘Horrendous details about #JamalKhashoggi’s death leaked by Turkish official:

                     •Took 7 minutes for him to die
                     •Consul was sent away immediately, no attempt to interrogate
                     •Jamal’s body was being cut up while he was still alive
                     •Given lethal injection ‘

                     Via
                     @MiddleEastEye

                     https://t.co/a6nVT4x52G?amp=1
6. Dennis Frank 6

   17 October 2018 at 3:12 pm

   Right, have now read the print version of the professor’s opinion. Doesn’t change my view of the motive for Kashoggi’s elimination. Seems to me the Crown Prince felt that Kashoggi was treading on his toes, regardless of the politics.

   Seems to me the Crown Prince was not deceived by Kashoggi carefully supporting his reforms. I suspect he knew K was effectively operating an independent Saudi foreign policy, in support of K’s pan-Arabic ideology. The House of Saud is tribal. Nothing to do with pan-Arabism whatsoever.

   The prof is right about the Ikwhan, as anyone who read Lacey’s The Kingdom & other histories of the regime will be aware. The founder rose to power via collaboration with them. The historic split between the regime & the fundamentalists is definitely the key feature in the political context.
   • Bill 6.1

     17 October 2018 at 3:39 pm

     Whatever and whatnot (who knows what goes on in another persons mind?) the basic fact is that Khoshoggi was not the crusading investigative journalist the liberal mainstream are touting him as.

     Taking a step back, I think we can safely say he was basically “a player”. And that he played a bad move (maybe more than one), and that contributed to him losing his life – a real life Game of Thrones on evil steroids with not single “good person” in sight.
     • Dennis Frank 6.1.1

       17 October 2018 at 3:48 pm

       Yes I agree. There’s something we don’t know about, probably something to do with how the CP views the irritation factor of islamic fundamentalism, and/or how Quatar is operating independently of the Saudis as a regional player – maybe K supported a stance of theirs in his writing or interviews. Even if he was being careful, could have been something inadvertent, just an implication that triggered the CP. Perception trumps reality, particularly when it comes to a ruler consolidating control!
7. McFlock 7

   17 October 2018 at 4:12 pm

   Even if it was the case that Nazi’s were bumping one another off (and I suspect that gives Kashoggi a disservice, even if he wasn’t the most progressive person on the planet), it’s interesting for its blatant nature and the use of a consulate and other state resources to do it.

   When I was a bouncer, people would steal alcohol and glassware. Fair enough, tried to catch them, but it happened. But the Saudis have acted like one prick who when I was holding the glassware that he also had in hand was saying “What glassware? I don’t have any glassware. You can’t do anything to me”. A thick layer of douche icing on top of a mildly distasteful but usually unavoidable cake. He got a surprise at the reaction, and I think the Saudis might, too. Nobody will go to jail, but nobody believes the prince’s “oh he let women drive, he can’t be that bad” cultivated image.
8. Gabby 8

   17 October 2018 at 4:47 pm

   Murder’s murder billy.
   • Bill 8.1

     17 October 2018 at 4:53 pm

     Aye Gabbelly. And right there in the post there is – Do the investigation and apply justice. That should happen regardless of how despicable or laudable the parties involved are.

     But it’s okay. You weren’t the first one to jump in with a comment before taking the time to read the post properly.
     • McFlock 8.1.1

       17 October 2018 at 5:07 pm

       It’s also why we should care.
       • Bill 8.1.1.1

         17 October 2018 at 6:02 pm

         Funny how, if my memory serves me right, it was okay to not care too much about a bus packed full of kids in a refugee convoy being targeted by a suicide bomber though, aye? Something about a lack of precious column inches, yes? Not news worthy enough or some such.

         But now we ought to unpack our empathy and sympathy for a guy who formerly went off to Afghanistan to kill people “because religious conviction”, who fully supported the war in Yemen, and who would still be supporting and enabling Saudi Arabia’s head honcho, as well as some of the world’s utter bastards if he was able.

         Bad bastards can knock themselves out knocking bad bastards off. And if society can bang up the ones who knocked themselves out knocking the others off, then that would be cool. Paint me inhumane, but I don’t give a crap for disgusting expressions of humanity who have, and who would, gleefully spread misery and carnage everywhere.
         • marty mars 8.1.1.1.1

           17 October 2018 at 7:06 pm

           You are a bit inhumane with that view. The big problem is ‘bad’ – it is subjective. Some think assad is bad, some think good, others neutral – when governments use terror tactics they should be condemned. When they use terror tactics against anyone they should be condemned. They use those tactics to commit extrajudicial murder and frighten people.
           • Bill 8.1.1.1.1.1

             17 October 2018 at 8:11 pm

             Why are you responding to me with an argument about governments and how governments should be condemned, when the criticism you have of me is my indifference to the fact of the death of an individual who I did not know, never met, who killed people as a member of the Mujahideen, who openly supported war on Yemen, who advocated for a despicable form of government and who promulgated malignant religious dogma?

             How many times will I have to repeat this, and will it ever get through?

             No matter how despicable Khashoggi was, who-ever killed him should be brought to justice, and Khashoggi’s personal traits should play no part in deciding the sentence to be imposed on who-ever killed him.
             • marty mars …

               17 October 2018 at 8:25 pm

               “Paint me inhumane, but I don’t give a crap for disgusting expressions of humanity…”

               Well I responded to that quote.

               You obviously don’t understand my critique because your opinion of what you thought it was was quite wrong. Anyway I’ll leave this post now cos you’re getting irritated imo and I can’t be bothered making any more effort with you. Thanks.
           • greywarshark 8.1.1.1.1.2

             18 October 2018 at 10:14 am

             Yeah subjective points of view. What seems so straightforward and thus drawing outright agreement, or condemnation, will also find detractors from both those viewpoints, and some will be able to explain clearly what their reason/s are.

             There can be no excuse, reason, for vicious torture. That harms not only the victim, but the souls of the perpetrators both close, and the distant power holders, and ultimately the culture of the human societal group is affected. If someone is deemed to be an enemy deserving punishment and death, then the interrogation should be short, and death quick. I have a book by Mariane Pearl* about her journalist husband Daniel who was beheaded. Like the guillotine, the sharp edge is quick, and in comparison, less vicious than the reported treatment of this journalist.

             (And even non-vicious torture becomes inexcusable in a short time – having lights on , having white noise, music, on 24 hours. Not enough water, no facilities for elimination, for cleanliness, for care of the body. That builds up to bad enough to drive people mad.)

             And for those whose reply is that people shouldn’t be ‘put to death’. I say that it has, does and will happen and how it is done should be thought about and have curbs and limits.

             *Mariane is the author of “A Mighty Heart: The Brave Life and Death of My Husband Daniel Pearl” (Scribner.) First published in the United States in 2003, Mariane’s memoir celebrating the values of humanism and dignity is a detailed account of the investigation led in Pakistan to rescue her husband Danny.
             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariane_Pearl
         • McFlock 8.1.1.1.2

           17 October 2018 at 9:17 pm

           He’s a disgusting expression of humanity, now?

           Maybe so. But we should still care.

           Reasons we should care about Kashoggi:
           1: he was a human being
           2: he was probably murdered (hence the past tense)
           3: he had people who loved him.

           Reasons we should care about a busload of kids:
           1: they were human beings
           2: they were murdered (hence the past tense)
           3: they had people who loved them.
           4: they were defenceless.
           5: they were children.

           Reasons the busload of children was “news worthy” and got some “column inches”:
           1: They were children, so good for ratings
           2: it was a little bit out of the ordinary

           Reasons the probably murder of Kashoggi was “news worthy” and got some “column inches”:
           1: The idea of being murdered while doing mundane tasks is good for ratings
           2: The use of a consulate is very out of the ordinary
           3: The image of his partner waiting for him outside while he is being murdered is also good for ratings
           4: the blatant flying in of a clean up crew is very out of the ordinary
           5: the lurid details of dismemberment are a dramatic and medieval contrast to the Saudis’ desire to seem modern and more progressive of late
           6: The turks seem pissed, so the gall of a US close ally doing that on Turkish soil will only add momentum to the Turkish pivot towards Russia and away from NATO. Geopolitically it is very interesting.

           So yeah, we should care more about the busload of kids, but Kashoggi’s (likely) murder is much more news worthy. Kids die quite a lot in war zones. Using a diplomatic residence in another country to murder your enemies, and creating some diplomatic waves while doing so… not so much.
           • Bill 8.1.1.1.2.1

             17 October 2018 at 10:19 pm

             The allegation (not groundless) was that those kids on the refugee convoy had been deliberately rounded up by the bombers accomplice by way of (was it crisps or lollies?) Can’t recall.

             Very different to some “normal” act of war – to deliberately target and kill 80(?) children, no?

             But the atrocity was committed by people our (ie – western) governments were funding and calling moderate.

             So, nothing to be gained politically for giving it oxygen.
             • McFlock …

               17 October 2018 at 10:36 pm

               No, not very different from what terrorists generally do. A scummier case than many, maybe, but a variation on the theme.
     • Gabby 8.1.2

       17 October 2018 at 6:46 pm

       By properly you mean with due regard for your cleverness? Who’s a clever little devils advocate, I thought.
   • D'Esterre 8.2

     18 October 2018 at 1:27 am

     Gabby: “Murder’s murder billy.”

     Assuming that anything at all’s happened; the Turkish account veers into white queen territory, in my view.

     However. On the basis that he really might be deceased, there’s this – Wahhabis killing each other is like your rubbish sprouting legs and walking to the bin: it is a bloody miracle and you must give thanks to God for it.
9. joe90 9

   17 October 2018 at 5:04 pm

   This was IS level vengeance.

   (disturbing content)

   The killing took seven minutes, the source said.

   As he started to dismember the body, Tubaigy put on earphones and listened to music. He advised other members of the squad to do the same.

   “When I do this job, I listen to music. You should do [that] too,” Tubaigy was recorded as saying, the source told MEE.

   https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-khashoggi-829291552
   • Bill 9.1

     17 October 2018 at 5:40 pm

     the Turkish source said

     screams were then heard by a witness downstairs, the source said

     They had come to kill him,” the source told MEE.

     The screaming stopped when Khashoggi […] was injected with an as yet unknown substance. Hmm. I guess “the source” (not mentioned for that wee snippet) heard them say something on the tape along the lines of “If you just roll up your sleeve….”?

     And alive on the table and blah, blah, blah said the source, the source said, the source told MEE, a Turkish source told, the Turkish source said….

     There is next to no news or information – just the journalistic equivalent of porn in the entire first half of that piece.

     The 3 min 7″ single version has been pre-released to a newspaper ahead of the full length 12″ version. And I’ll bet there’s some folks can’t wait to wrap their ears around it.
     • marty mars 9.1.1

       17 October 2018 at 5:46 pm

       Will you believe an audio of him screaming or do you not trust the source e.g. Turkish authorities?

       What proof would be enough for you considering the cleanup occurred 2 weeks ago?
       • Bill 9.1.1.1

         17 October 2018 at 6:08 pm

         I’m talking about the standard of the reporting marty that would have us bleat off down a particular path because “anonymous sources”. That, and if I want slasher horror, I’ll hire a film.

         To palm off that crap as journalism is diabolical.
10. adam 10

    17 October 2018 at 5:56 pm

    But, but, but he’s our nazi…

    For me it’s just another example of the failures of the state, and the failure of the dominant ideology to do nothing more than try desperately to cling onto its own madness – by making a hero out of a nazi.

    I’m surprised people are surprise by this – how many disappeared in Saudi Arabia last year? How many gay people had their heads chopped off? How many heads were chopped off in the long list of capital offences in this FUBAR theocratic state? Oh and by the way, you get that their rulers have a different ideology to justify their level of violence, murder and control.
    • Bill 10.1

      17 October 2018 at 6:20 pm

      “There is a state that beheads and even crucifies its citizens…”

      But it’s progressive. In December 2013, Saudi Arabia announced its intention to begin issuing tourist visas for the first time in its history

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHzar9QKT4k
11. weston 11

    17 October 2018 at 8:02 pm

    Usualiy bill when a person dies your headstone will record your full name seems that everyone has at least that right but you couldnt bring yourself to put Jamal in front of Khashoggi because based on the two interviews you link to you think hes a nazi ??and he fought alongside bin Laden ??oh and your fucked off with MSM attempting to manipulate us into caring that a JOUNALIST was trapped beaten tortured and finally DISMEMBERED by a hit squad of killers who almost certainly think they,ll get away with it .Who doesnt get fucked off by certain forms of the media and the games they play ??In this case if the spotlight of international attention is focused on the rotten and corrupt relationship between USA UK and Saudi i reckon bloody good job and maybe Jamal Khashoggi can rest in peace .
    • Bill 11.1

      17 October 2018 at 8:39 pm

      “you think hes a nazi ??”

      Where did I say that?

      What I wrote was – if it was the case that Nazi’s were bumping one another off, why would I be presumed to care? Or, if Nazi’s were bumping one another off, why would anyone try to manipulate me into caring?

      He wasn’t the heroic investigative journalist/ dissident that liberal outlets are touting him as. He did fight with the Mujahideen. And his religious ideas and political ideas were toxic.

      That aside. If focus and pressure is brought to bear on “the rotten and corrupt relationship between USA UK and Saudi”, then that would be fantastic in my book.

      But tell me, since you like others, seem to be investing in or focusing on the horror aspects of his death, did you have anything to say, or feel anything about the beheading of 12 year old Palestinian Abdullah Issa with a bread knife at the hands of Nour al-Din al-Zenki …a group that western governments were funding at the time because they were “moderate”? Or was that just quietly filed away in the “shit happens” folder? Did you ask any questions about the relationship between western governments and Al Zenka? Did you question why the photographer (Mahmoud Raslan) who was celebrating with the men about to do the beheading was in the employ of AP, or why he received an award and was feted for his “boy in ambulance” shot? Did you question why the BBC cropped photos from the back of the pick up truck so the child was out of picture while it ran headlines claiming the boy had been a fighter with al-Quds Brigade?

      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36843990
      https://21stcenturywire.com/2017/01/28/child-beheading-terrorist-supporter-wins-getty-and-sunday-times-defining-images-award-2016/
      http://imemc.org/article/syria-plo-statement-on-beheading-of-palestinian-boy-in-aleppo-video/

      Or do you, like others, prefer to only do outrage when it comes pre-wrapped and ready for easy consumption?
      • weston 11.1.1

        17 October 2018 at 9:52 pm

        Idont like arab headchoppers fullstop bill sure theres SO much shit to have to swallow i just dont see why you have to hate JK cause last time i looked he wasnt carrying a bloody great knife and i dont care who he served in the past seemed more relevant to care about who he is /was now and what he was likely to be doing in the future
        • Bill 11.1.1.1

          17 October 2018 at 10:02 pm

          I don’t “hate” him. He was despicable or whatever, and not the person media are making him out to be. I’m indifferent to his death. (Though not the stuff surrounding it)
12. D'Esterre 12

    17 October 2018 at 10:54 pm

    Bill: “He wasn’t the heroic investigative journalist/ dissident that liberal outlets are touting him as. He did fight with the Mujahideen. And his religious ideas and political ideas were toxic.”

    Indeed. From the beginning, I’ve been sceptical about this story; absent supporting evidence, I take all msm reportage from that part of the world with a grain of salt.

    It’s good to see that you’ve linked to Consortium; I’d read As`ad AbuKhalil’s post, and would’ve linked it if you hadn’t. I recommend the comment thread as well.

    My view now is that we don’t actually know what happened; we may never know. Though I don’t doubt that we’ll hear a narrative of some sort. Eventually.

    A side issue. In the course of the time during which this story has played, I’ve got increasingly irritated at western mispronunciation of Khashoggi’s name. Which caused me to recall Adnan Khashoggi: I guess one has to be old enough to remember a time when everyone knew who he was. I wondered: are they related?

    Heh! Just checked Wiki: Jamal is his nephew. As was Dodi Fayed. Don’t think I knew that at the time.
13. Adrian Thornton 13

    18 October 2018 at 8:55 am

    Hi Bill, I watched those interviews when they came out too, and while it is good to get some actual background and context around Jamal Khashoggi, I also believe that that information is only of secondary importance as far as this moment goes.

    This is the moment when the entire world is going to be forced to see (well by the looks of things “hear”) right out in the open a regime that we all support, actually dismember a human being while alive, apparently over seven minute of pure horror.
    I don’t know about you, but I am pretty sure the general public has never been forced to confront such a graphic horror show perpetrated by one of our allies in such plain sight, and then that same public, while still reeling from the visions of what has just been witnessed, are going to be told that we are still trading partners, ie supporters of those same monsters.

    As this moment and this irrefutable truth become fully embedded into the public consciousness, where does that leave us, the media…what narrative can MSM spin to over come the minds vision of a human being screaming while being dismembered alive while our leaders do nothing? I believe that this is the moment that many people will really come to understand that our system of free-market liberalism is a system with absolutely no moral compass whatsoever, maybe most people won’t quite understand it those terms, but they are being forced to put those two things together nonetheless.

    This could well be part of an historic moment, as more and more foundation bricks holding up the liberal ideology are pulled away at an ever quickening pace…who knows what the final act will be that will bring it all down?
    • Bill 13.1

      18 October 2018 at 11:47 am

      Going for a broad sweep of possibilities, either

      a) the Crown Prince had him “offed” in a brutal and fcked up way – miscalculated and his rule is going to come under pressure.

      b) Khashoggi is involved in some grand play whereby people aligned with other princes have flown in, flown out (with him) and laid an “impossible to deal with” story in their wake. Which also puts the Crown Prince under pressure.

      I don’t think it’s really important which one of those scenarios is more accurate, because the consequences are the same.

      So can we look forward to Saudi Arabia being returned to a state our glorious leaders would consider as being normal? And then what? We’re all to breathe a sigh of relief that Saudi Arabia is ‘fixed’?

      Our governments have helped lay down trails of utter misery through Indonesia, Chili, Iran, El Salvador…I’m not even going to try to run the list off. They’ve supported the Khmer Rouge, The Ibn Sauds, The Shah, Hussein, Netanyahu…provided training and arms and god knows what to all of them, and in full knowledge of what they were and what they were doing. And they’ve resisted calls to “do the right thing”. Every time.

      And to reiterate the point of my post. Media offering up a fiction of a person in order to get me ‘suitably outraged’ is vile. Them getting away with it (the peddling of a fiction) is bullshit.

      If the guy was killed, the guy was killed. That’s not good (someone was killed). But this “angel skewered on the racks of hell” because of one person, spin…well, it doesn’t suggest there’s much of an appetite for confronting the reality of Saudi Arabia.

      It suggests an intent to apply pressure (or join in the chorus) so that one prince gets swapped out for another; an appetite to get things back to the way they were.

      And if public outrage is riding on graphic written reports of a torture tape that’s all because of one person, then the outrage will dissipate when the Crown Prince (who was heavily touted in liberal media until recently) is swapped out.

      Shame politics isn’t just a case of crowdfunding for additional chapters 🙁
      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        18 October 2018 at 5:46 pm

        I haven’t seen or heard the video clip that has been released but am mightily confused reading Bill and others here.

        Is it the contention of commenters here that this man was not dismembered while still alive?

        Is it then that he suffered a terrible death at the hands of a group of brutes?

        Two questions. Can someone answer them succinctly please?

        And while we are on man’s inhumanity to others as a regular way of life and death, Chris Trotter has raised questions about our moral code, particularly in the Defence Forces, which another recent report says is rife with drug taking.
        https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2018/10/no-country-for-dishonourable-men_18.html
        • greywarshark 13.1.1.1

          18 October 2018 at 5:58 pm

          RNZ
          https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018667343/gruesome-details-emerge-on-jamal-khashoggi-s-death
14. joe90 14

    18 October 2018 at 1:51 pm

    Kashoggi’s final column.

    I was recently online looking at the 2018 “Freedom in the World” report published by Freedom House and came to a grave realization. There is only one country in the Arab world that has been classified as “free.” That nation is Tunisia. Jordan, Morocco and Kuwait come second, with a classification of “partly free.” The rest of the countries in the Arab world are classified as “not free.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/jamal-khashoggi-what-the-arab-world-needs-most-is-free-expression/2018/10/17/adfc8c44-d21d-11e8-8c22-fa2ef74bd6d6_story.html?utm_term=.ffccabac20f9

    (screen shots for those who’ve done their free views )

    1 & 2 /4

    https://screenshots.firefox.com/PCjKm0OMTkpY8ReH/www.washingtonpost.com

    https://screenshots.firefox.com/Lsag07AkSUb4Z699/www.washingtonpost.com
    • joe90 14.1

      18 October 2018 at 1:54 pm

      3&4/4

      https://screenshots.firefox.com/kr2IMjqYVy5qiKcn/www.washingtonpost.com

      https://screenshots.firefox.com/9fSEZyLvLiiivJ3F/www.washingtonpost.com
    • McFlock 14.2

      18 October 2018 at 5:48 pm

      not seeing anything despicable there, but content that might piss off an autocrat.
15. Richard 15

    19 October 2018 at 8:30 am

    A journalist gets disappeared and Bill doesn’t know where he stands on this. Yeah, tough one. Has RT not done an editorial yet?

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