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Leaders’ debate post

Written By: - Date published: 6:59 pm, September 30th, 2020 - 115 comments
Categories: election 2020, jacinda ardern, Judith Collins, uncategorized - Tags:

Post for discussion of the latest leaders’ debate scheduled for this evening.  Be kind to each other.

115 comments on “Leaders’ debate post ”

  1. mickysavage 1

    Miss Ardern … drink!

    • gsays 1.1

      Easy for you to say, I have just started a fairly high octane home brew cider..

    • roblogic 1.2

      if it's Hoegaarden Forbidden Fruit, yes please 😛

    • Adrian Thornton 1.3

      Did you like the part when Collins out lefted Arden on house prices?..seems that Arden would rather let the country burn than see houses become affordable for our children…not even to fucking own but now, but even to rent FFS!

      Also interesting to note that no media pick up on Collins support of Trumps Israeli "peace" policies …of course that is because she seems to be some sort of mad religious nutter who probably thinks it brings us closer to the rapture or something.

  2. Anker 3

    Jacinda sounding good when I tuned in. Glad they are being asked about covid.

    but just can’t watch it! Too excruciating

    • Andre 3.1

      Did Judthulhu pick up some debating technique tips from watching the US "debate"?

      • Cinny 3.1.1

        It's scarily similar…. including the static hair.

      • mary_a 3.1.2

        Funny you should say that Andre (3.1). I was thinking the same thing.

        Judith Collins did a great repeat Trump debate performance last night. Jacinda in the main demonstrated good manners and respect towards her opposition, by allowing Collins to say her piece.

  3. riffer 4

    Lucky I'm not drinking every time one of them says "Paddy".

  4. bwaghorn 5

    You forgot

    "They think tax is love"

  5. gsays 6

    Opening round of hypotheticals goes to PM, as the questions have already been dealt with in the real world.

    The contender in the blue corner looks rattled. Despite calling in Thunderbirds Border Protection Agency.

  6. francesca 7

    Did I just hear Collins saying Samoa closed its borders a month before NZ???

    Well talofa !

    In actual fact they closed a couple days after NZ

  7. PsyclingLeft.Always 8

    Jacinda gettin the Applause : )

  8. Fireblade 9

    I like Judith's red shirt. It's great to see her supporting our next Labour government.

  9. Dennis Frank 10

    Significant win for JC when the PM refused to say her govt would change the law if necessary to defeat businesses rorting taxpayers, after JC said she would do that as PM – those businesses who took the wage subsidy without needing it.

    Ardern seems defensive. She's trying to be authoritative, only partially succeeding. Collins is talking over her answers, Gower is allowing that to happen, Ardern's appeals for courtesy & equal time to reply are being ignored. Makes her ineffectual.

    • NZJester 10.1

      To be fair JC would not change the law to get the money back but retroactively make them rorting the current system by lying legal so they can keep the money.

      The current system is based on honesty that the information they supply is true and correct to get the money out as fast as possible without a long delay checking the info supplied is true. Just because a few business are lying to them and supplying false information to get a subsidy does not mean a law change needs to be made. They just need to be charged under current law if they have knowingly supplied false information to get the subsidy instead of asked nicely to pay it back.

  10. Brian Tregaskin 11

    Judith is an ABOSULTE train wreck tonight, history is the making, this snowflake will be exposed tonight.
    Go Jacinda!!!

  11. georgecom 12

    I would repeat a few lines every so often

    If the SFO was mentioned, suggest Judith knows more about them. Ask her how many final warnings Key had placed her on before she got demoted and investigated by the SFO.

    The economy, mention Goldsmiths 8 billion hole, double counting etc. Can Paul balance his cheque book?

    Nationals changed it's covid border policy 5 times this year, even more than the number of times it changed leaders

    subtly paint Collins as the temporary National leader until after the election. Ask Judith how many times she stood for leader before she got it. How many National MPs were consdiering bringing back Bridges when it was a choice of Collins and Gerry. How long it might be before Luxon becomes the next leader.

    A few jibes at Judith to get under her skin. She is clearly thin skinned about some of this stuff.

  12. gsays 13

    Feilding!

    We made the tele!

  13. Brian Tregaskin 14

    Go Feilding! –making history tonight

  14. Dennis Frank 15

    Still no moral leadership from the PM on justice for cannabis users. She wants voters to believe civil rights for oppressed minorities are irrelevant?? Or she believes that particular minority deserves to be oppressed and is happy that the others have been liberated? At least JC is blatantly closet fascist.

    • The Al1en 15.1

      I didn't see it like that, so dunno what debate you're watching

    • In Vino 15.2

      Yes, I also would prefer that she come out and say it. But given the surge of "No" vote propaganda lately, and the rise in the No vote in polls, I can understand her holding back her hand, given the foolishly conservative nature of so many voting Kiwis. Better to concentrate on winning the election, and there is nothing wrong with staying neutral on either of the referenda, which are conscience votes anyway, and should therefore remain private.

      Jacinda is doing the wise thing rather than what she would like to do, maybe..

    • mikesh 15.3

      Nobody should be obliged to say how they would vote, in an election, on any issue, not even on a cannabis referendum.

  15. PsyclingLeft.Always 16

    Jacinda can Te Reo…Judith…not so much

  16. Chris T 17

    The problem is have lately iso Ardern is so vague with detail when answering.

    Refuses to answer yes/no questions etc.

    But I guess it is just not wanting to rock the boat with the polls.

  17. Cinny 18

    Dr shane.. drink ! lololz

  18. aj 19

    Gower is bloody annoying, but in a different way from Campbell.

    Collins has just targeted the health system as being racist. . . .

    • Cinny 19.1

      Personally I think Paddy is doing a brilliant job in this role.

    • Chris T 19.2

      Thought Arderns answer was basically the same.

      • observer 19.2.1

        In fact they agreed on quite a lot, though that won't make the headlines (sugary drinks, period poverty and feminism, 4 year terms, even Te Reo).

        Collins criticising Big Pharma was my unexpected nodding moment.

        • mikesh 19.2.1.1

          I thought her criticism unwarranted. At some point you have to draw the line on how much the state should spend on a treatment, which may not even work.

          • greywarshark 19.2.1.1.1

            mikesh – Put in a nutshell. We expect a lot from government that many profess to despise. Having their cake and eating it too.

  19. Dennis Frank 20

    Ardern's delivery & presentation has been improving steadily. Collins has eased back on her dominance/ bullying tactic and sounded genuine in acknowledging how unconscious bias in decision-makers produces racism.

  20. Cinny 21

    "It's not age judith, it's ideology and yours is outdated."

    Clapping from the audience follows yes

  21. Dennis Frank 22

    Collins has persisted in doing a standing trainwreck impression on climate change and water policy. Clueless dork syndrome and nothing else to offer.

  22. RedBaronCV 23

    Are the debates being biased or preframed by the location and the audience. Looks like both are studios – no Marae background for instance -and I assume those studios are in central city locations with matching audiences. Would you get a different audience make up if say one was held in Manakau with the locals out in force?.

    • Cinny 23.1

      I'd say Level 2 Covid restrictions in Akld would have a fair bit to do with their choice of location and audience size.

  23. PsyclingLeft.Always 24

    crusher Collins? More like condescension Collins. Patronising as . Pretty weak

  24. Pat 25

    Have watched 30 mins of the second debate and the only thing I have taken from it is that both leaders consider that there are not enough votes to be determined by their presentations….will anyone bother with the third obligatory offering?

  25. gsays 26

    "What's your plan, Judith?"

    Line of the night for me.

    Followed by "Jeepers". And Gower's reaction.

  26. Dennis Frank 27

    The thing proceeded better the last couple of segments: bipartisan consensus got acknowledged on a bunch of topics. Overall, no king-hits. Collins scored the best laugh moment & probably won on points.

  27. In Vino 28

    For most dimwitted swing voters, too long and they will have switched to some dumb home decoration or cooking programme. For my money, Jacinda won narrowly, but this is of no significance.

  28. Patricia 2 29

    Another debate ; another host who thinks it is more about him. Paddy could at least let the person being asked a question answer it.

    Judith Wong Tung has found christianity but will wipe the gun laws. Happy to work with David Seymour who is a man of principle.

    More of Judith's linguistic skills on display ; plenty of "By the way" and "I'll tell you what".

    Paul Goldsmith only made one error.

    She admires Donald Trump's recent negotiating in the Middle East.

    The audience seemed to be applauding more of Ms Ardern's statements but the panel (Trish Sherson / Mihi Forbes / ?? Pagani) thought the winner of the debate was Judith Wong Tung.

  29. observer 30

    Debates aren't really about "knockouts, winning on points" etc. That's the TV show, but it isn't what endures.

    What matters is leaders being on the record, and then having to deal with that for a) the rest of the campaign and b) in government. An example would be Ardern putting abortion on the agenda in 2017. It happened because she committed to it on live TV.

    By that measure, Collins gave two huge hostages to fortune. First on guns (a real vote-loser). And worse, being a cheerleader for Donald Trump. Polls show a majority of National voters don't like Trump.

    She'll be asked plenty about both of those, tomorrow. Not what she wants the media coverage to be about.

    • Incognito 30.1

      Do ACT voters like guns and Trump?

      • observer 30.1.1

        You mean she was trying to win them back. Possibly, but a high price to pay.

        Swing voters would have said "yeah, she can do some good gags, but a PM? No."

        • Incognito 30.1.1.1

          I think Judith is fighting a rearguard battle more than a frontal attack for the centre or swing voters. I think she’s losing on both fronts.

      • woodart 30.1.2

        I would say act likes the money that follows guns(nra).

  30. RedBaronCV 31

    Was it Mihirangi that made the comments about the Kahui twins? Just watching Judith wallow in hyprocrisy. Nact removes the Bristol clauses but Judith wants to capitalise on the Kahui twins.

    Tovea I'm over but who are the other two on the panels?

    .

    • lprent 31.1

      Of course. It is one of the nutbar constituencies that Seymour has cobbled together (reminds me of the 2005? Peter Dunne strategy).

      The gun manufacturer and retailer lobby's sock puppet group leader is 3rd on the list as I remember it.

    • RedBaronCV 31.2

      Okay I've worked out who the panel is . Tilting too the right methinks?

  31. ScottGN 32

    Collins gave the game away with the stupid flag question at the end, “why doesn’t Miss Ardern take it to a referendum, it worked so well last time.” You mean after the election Judith when she’s still prime minister?

  32. observer 33

    History trivia question: is that the first time a PM has been addressed as "dear" in a debate?

    Collins seems to think this line of condescension works (see also: "poor wee thing", "Miss Ardern" etc). I'm sure it appeals to the echo chamber of blokes who dismiss "Cindy". But that's a small minority of voters.

    • Wensleydale 33.1

      I don't think Collins possesses the self-awareness required to realise when she's being an obvious ass. She seems to think her pathological smart-arsery is witty and clever, when it just makes her look petty and childish. Still… plays well with a certain demographic no doubt.

  33. PaddyOT 34

    The debates are just slick posturing and showmanship, a joke show insulting to NZers intelligence as it pretends to advance informed voting choices.

    What was new learnings tonight? Nothing.

    Except pre debate Tova pointed out Natz Nicola Willis sitting in the Undecided block of seats in the studio audience.

    Judith's still pushing her brand new 'I've found God' personna, that perverse revelation again tonight on tv3.
    " As a Christian, I do actually believe in miracles but that ain't going to be one of them."

    Judith with these and her comments on Hagar meeting the maker, was appealing to her righteous, voter base. There's that underlying seditious message similar to Trump's 'supremacist' hate tactics over time. " A vote to the other party is a threat to Christians ….. and so on."

    Crusher has memory loss of neo-lib impacts, she must be an Old Testament follower of brimstone breath and ripping out eyes
    retalliation techniques.

    Judith trying to portray her innocence in her dirty politics relationship to Slater, Trump claiming innocence of tax evasion today in debate, Judith's ridiculous truck driver cap in winter another similarity…

    I feel there is more debauched americanism as an influence in this NZ election.

    Today in the US debate Trump was challenged about his white supremacist supporters during his shouty time with Joe Biden.

    But when asked to denounce the far-right group "Proud Boys" by name, he said: "Stand back and stand by." That deflection tactic Judith uses.

    A Proud Boys member must declare that he is "a Western chauvinist who refuses to apologise for creating the modern world" and has to wear a MAGA hat

    https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-53018201

    In a Trump manner Collin's re-colours the history of colonialism and deflects from answering issues… my husband is Samoan…, ' ' ' Is there something wrong with me being white?’ Collins twisting out of race relations questions at that time.

    This year on The Hui, Collins said she'll "never apologise" for being who she is when questioned over her comments during a hearing of Parliament's Finance and Expenditure Committee.

    Judith reacted to questions by Waiariki MP Tamati Coffey about Treaty partnership and Government procurement.
    "Oh Jesus Christ, stupid questions," Collins said. Blasphemous Judith…

    The committee chair – Labour's Deborah Russell – called that "a 'white girl comment' – crikey".

    "Oh no," replied Collins. "It's actually someone who is utterly sick of being demonised for my ethnicity, thank you very much." That narcissistic turning of issues to be about herself.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/judith-collins-fires-back-at-critics-over-white-comments.html

    Collins over weeks is moving away from a centrist position, dumping 'greening' policies – ' money for private Rio Tinto but NEVER for fixing injustice at Ihumatao' . Seymour for deputy PM would be excellent she feels . Collin's has dumped the tyrant softening baby blue jacket for Thatcher threads . Overtalking brashly, taking dog- shots ,Trump like in debate. It's not coincidental this week's old Judith styling herself as proud of her neo-lib inequality legacy and a proud christian and white girl.

  34. mikesh 35

    Does anyone think it's fair to send someone to jail for three years, if he/she hasn't committed a crime, but simply for refusing to shop in a family member. It's not desirable that a guilty person should get off scot free, but it's not the end of the world.

    • Jennifer 35.1

      It was the end of the world for that small human being and many more. How long do you want to turn a blind eye to our disgusting baby murdering stastistics?

      • mikesh 35.1.1

        Who's turning a blind eye. I'm pretty sure the police do their best to find out who the guilty party is, and prosecute. If they draw a blank, that of course is tragic. But does it justify sending someone to jail if he/she refuses to shop in a family member. It certainly doesn't in other situations.

        Judith was simply pandering for votes by playing on people's emotions.

    • greywarshark 35.2

      Three years – millions in fraud doesn't get that does it? It's a gotta show these low-lives who's boss thing I think. Which they already know and resent like hell being hassled.

  35. adam 36

    Mihingarangi Forbes saying the debate was split and supporters will say their side won. Then the two muppets that followed her both said judith won. Tory hacks are so blatant these days.

    Is it just me, or is anyone else over the rabid anti-intellectualism from the post debate female commentators on TV1 and TV3?

    • tc 36.1

      Never listen to the paid shills personally, most pass themselves off as objective commentators, however they're all part of manufacturing consent and meme pushing. That's why they're there.

      People need to see it for what it is, 2 leaders of major parties wooing swinging voters.

      Jude's needs to prevent them leaking elsewhere on the right, Jacinda just keeps it steady knowing the polls and her opposite's polarising nature shattering that sides vote to ACT etc.

  36. observer 37

    Here's a clip from the leaders' debate, 1987:

    https://teara.govt.nz/en/video/35680/party-leaders-debate-1987

    Who "won the game" in 87? What did media talking heads reckon? Nobody cares today.

    As mentioned, it's not the delivery of the lines, it's the content of the lines. What was promised is what matters. It's been put on the agenda. In this case, electoral reform.

    Lange didn't follow up, but Bolger did. So 33 years later, we'll be voting in an MMP election.

    What will endure, after last night's debate? My pick: Ardern's commitment to declare a climate emergency. It seemed to be off the cuff, but it's there now, can't be unsaid. So maybe the Greens were the real winners last night.

    • Agreed Observer…..I'm assuming (can't be bothered to look it up) that Judith and friends and Winston and friends prevented the CC Emergency being declared in the vote in parliament. For this reason alone it will be good to see these dinosaurs leave the house after Jacinda and James form their coalition.

      The debate will have pushed young people's votes to the Greens on the cannabis issue because of Jacinda's refusal to say how she will vote and Judith's whipping of her entire caucus to vote No.

  37. RedLogix 38

    This is why Joe Rogan (love or hate him) has been so successful; the does the exact opposite of these debate formats.

    • Phil 38.1

      I'm sorry, but, what are you on about?

      I've never seen or heard anyone so blatantly and obviously make absolutely everything about him in the way Rogan consistently does. Which has been a consistent criticism of both debates thus far.

      • RedLogix 38.1.1

        Rogan is not an interviwer in the conventional media sense. He's having a conversation with his guest, a human interaction where both people get to build on each other's idea's and experiences. As a result you get these fascinating discussions that go on often up to 3hrs. And when they end people, far from being bored, still want more.

        So yes Rogan put's himself into it in a way that you don't see in the msm. And that's because he's not trying to do what they do, and he's hit on a formula that demonstrably works. Of course now he's become competition, the smear and hit jobs will ramp up.

        • Phil 38.1.1.1

          It's not a smear or hit job to point out that Rogan is apparently quite happy for his platform to be co-opted by genuinely vile human beings seeking signal boost their racism, misogyny, and/or qanon-adjacent conspiracy theories.

          Within the 'interview' sub-genre of podcasts he's often classified, the closest analogue to what Rogan does is Marc Maron. Maron is far more engaging as a host and demonstrates a level of research into why his guests are there than Rogan ever has.

          • RedLogix 38.1.1.1.1

            Rogan has had a very wide range of guests. There will always be someone to hate on.

    • Gabby 38.2

      Rogan always manages to be the bigger bore.

      • RedLogix 38.2.1

        Why am I not surprised your superior intellect would find the most popular podcaster of all time to be utterly beneath you.

        So many ordinary people who like him … distasteful eh?

  38. ianmac 39

    That Right to Silence thing? Which person would you prosecute? How would you know if they knew anything or nothing?

    Sounds good to prosecute people on behalf of those poor little kids, but how and who?

    • Jennifer 39.1

      Where there is a will, there is a way.

    • Lettuce 39.2

      Prosecuting Catholic bishops who knew about priests sexually abusing children and did nothing, or worse covered it up, would be a great start.

    • Chris 39.3

      Just prosecute anyone. Anyone will do. And if it sticks, job done. If it doesn't, at least we've had a go so still job done. Easy.

      But yes, how is the question. So if someone refuses to talk are they convicted of refusing to talk? Is the penalty the same as if they’re convicted of the crime like refusing a blood test when suspected of drink-driving?

      I don’t know how removing the right to silence in oveseas jurisdictions hasn’t worked, as Ardern said last night, but my guess is that you simply cannot properly enforce the crime of refusing to speak unless the penalty is the same as being convicted of the crime you’re being questioned about.

  39. JohnSelway 40

    I don't like her, I won't vote for her but I feel JC won this round. She's a battler alright.

    But no – still no National vote from me.

  40. rod 42

    Collins certainly won the smarmy, smugness, prize again, a real natural.

  41. Rupert Watson 43

    Much is being made of Judith's Trumpian tone. I wonder what Professor Flynn thinks. Wish I could remember more of his lecture on Hobbes. Leviathan anyone?

  42. Ad 44

    CNN noticed that we did a far better and more useful political debate while the USA was making a complete hash of theirs.

    "Hours after United States President Donald Trump and Democratic challenger Joe Biden tore strips off each other before a horrified global television audience, a very different exchange played out on the other side of the Pacific.

    Two women, a combined 50 years younger than the gray-haired men vying for the US presidency, were having a comparatively civil debate about the future leadership of New Zealand.

    In front of an audience far smaller than the millions that tuned in worldwide for the US debate Tuesday, New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and opposition leader Judith Collins clashed and argued, but also laughed and complimented each other.

    As Trump and Biden fought for air time, talking over the top of each other and the moderator, Ardern and Collins were reasonably polite. Even some of the questions from moderator Patrick Gower gave an impression of a kinder, gentler polity across the Pacific."

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/01/asia/new-zealand-ardern-trump-election-debate-intl-hnk/index.html

  43. lurgee 45

    I think we should be glad debates are pretty irrelevant in this race, as – with the best will possible – I'd score it 2-0 to Collins at this point. She's far better at it than Ardern, who often seems flustered, reactive and can't get her ideas out in a pithy soundbite. Also, she has to run on her government's record which – other than the whole Saving the Nation thing – is pretty ropey.

    Of course, being good at a debate is not really an essential skill for being PM. But I'm glad there is a 20% gap between the parties, not a 2% one.

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