Lost the Plot

92 comments on “Lost the Plot ”

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1. sabine 1

   8 September 2015 at 6:12 pm

   just what is it?

   why?
2. Thinking Right 2

   8 September 2015 at 6:13 pm

   A little unusual I guess however he does have a point that there appear to be a lot of healthy single males leading the charge into Europe – you have to wonder about the fate of their families left behind.

   I wondered where Winston was in relation to this. Usually on matters involving any form of migrants he is pretty quick to throw in his 5 cents worth.
   • marty mars 2.1

     8 September 2015 at 6:20 pm

     ” you have to wonder about the fate of their families left behind.”

     maybe they have been killed
   • Bill 2.2

     8 September 2015 at 6:22 pm

     Idiot. If they wanted to learn how to kill, they wouldn’t have left in the first place.
     • weka 2.2.1

       8 September 2015 at 6:55 pm

       there is a real problem here though, because if healthy men leave a war zone when they can, how are we going to have enough fodder for wars in subsequent generations if the men don’t man up and be manly now? Not the best role models.
       • Ad 2.2.1.1

         8 September 2015 at 8:04 pm

         Key has signaled that Immigration staff over to the camps to do proper profiling checks on all of them, male and female. Those files will need to be done thoroughly, or we are going to have 600 Ahmed Zaoui cases testing our legal system.

         Refugee Status Appeals Authority is in for a workout.
         • Bill 2.2.1.1.1

           8 September 2015 at 10:18 pm

           Why profile?

           Germany has just said (reported in The Guardian) it will take 500 000 people per year. Now. Out of that 500 000, a few may well be traumatised in such a way that they’ll do something really fucked up at some point in the future.

           But of 500 000 new borns, a fair few do something really fucked up in their life.

           My point is this. No person seeking refugee status is doing so in order to blow people up; not one. If *you* want to enter a country to blow people up, there are other, far quicker and easier ways to enter a country.

           Given that then, what the fuck would immigration be profiling for?
           • Tracey 2.2.1.1.1.1

             9 September 2015 at 8:21 am

             Won’t they be processing them once in Germany according to any of their immigration rules though? Won’t everyone? It’s not, to my knowledge, a moratorium on inter state immigration, people still have to qualify as refugees? Which in most countries, ours anyway, has an actual definition, and we rely heavily on UNHCR in this regard. Interpol is always a part of all immigration checks in NZ.
           • Mike the Savage One 2.2.1.1.1.2

             9 September 2015 at 9:34 pm

             In all honesty, I think what the German government said was, that they expected 800 thousand or more to arrive, and that they will be processed accordingly, to their law governing refugees. They have a policy to not send people back quickly, even if they may not be accepted as refugees, so most will be safe, but may not be able to stay there forever.

             http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/08/germany-500000-refugees-a-year-clashes-lesbos

             http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/sep/08/refugee-crisis-clashes-in-lesbos-live-updates

             See this for info:
             http://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/Topics/Migration-Integration/Asylum-Refugee-Protection/Asylum-Refugee-Protection_Germany/asylum-refugee-policy-germany_node.html

             Read this important comment:
             “If neither asylum nor refugee protection can be granted, the BAMF examines in the course of the asylum procedure whether there are grounds for a deportation ban.”

             See this from the Economist for data on acceptance rates:
             http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart
         • Mike the Savage One 2.2.1.1.2

           12 September 2015 at 6:44 pm

           Yes, you raise a very valid point. There has been much “emotion” and emotional outpouring, particularly once we got presented the shocking pictures of a dead, drowned toddler called Aylan Kurdi. After some time has come to pass, many tend to be a bit wiser about what may or may not have happened. Here we have plenty of “anecdotal” proof, which appears to be more than anecdotal though, that some refugees may not deserve to be given refugee status, no matter how much they plea in front of cameras:

           http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/11/us-europe-migrants-turkey-iraq-idUSKCN0RB2BE20150911

           I am disturbed by this, as it will not assist the honest refugees. But we have to accept, things are not always as they may appear.

           No wonder now, that the father of the dead child has chosen to go back to formerly ISIS occupied Kobane in Syria of all places, to spend his days by the graves of his kids and wife. Had he stayed in Europe or Turkey, he would likely be charged and put up before a court by now.
   • joe90 2.3

     8 September 2015 at 8:29 pm

     you have to wonder about the fate of their families left behind.

     Know their young menfolk are alive while doing what they gotta do to survive, I imagine.
   • Rodel 2.4

     8 September 2015 at 9:03 pm

     ‘Appears to be a lot of healthy single males leading the charge into Europe’ ……………. Is there evidence of this? I saw on Tv a few women and kids.
     • Bill 2.4.1

       8 September 2015 at 10:23 pm

       Well, if a family can only rummage enough money together in order that one of them can take the journey, then given how fcking dangerous and arduous it is, I’d say they’d put their money on one of the younger, fitter and male members of the family.

       If that person ‘makes it’, there’s a chance they can secure passage for other family members.

       Just a thought.
       • Tracey 2.4.1.1

         9 September 2015 at 8:26 am

         I am also guessing that in many cases the better educated and english speaking gender is most likely to be male, given cultural attitudes of some to education in the mIddle east? More likely to meet immigration requirements and land a job? Then look to the family?

         I note no one has succeeded in getting an interview out of the President of Syria? He’s very quiet these days?

         McCully might have frightened him enough last week with his strong message of confrontation?

         “Foreign Affairs Minister Murray McCully has told the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) its “credibility is at stake” if more isn’t done to end conflict in Syria.

         Speaking to the UNSC at the Middle East open debate in New York where New Zealand is currently president, McCully said the situation in Syria had “remained deadlocked for too long”.

         “The region cannot afford for the conflict to continue. Nor can the council – its credibility is at stake”.” http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/70502741/murray-mccully-tells-un-security-council-its-credibility-is-at-stake

         Sanctions? UN resolutions? Nah, a wet bus ticket is what will make the difference; up, steps up NZ.

         Speaking of credibility, NZ at the Pacific forum will be ramping up climate change stance to show its true leadership to help the weaker and most affected nations in our region, right?
   • Tracey 2.5

     9 September 2015 at 8:18 am

     Maybe all the healthy men in NZ who want our soldiers to fight for their beliefs in Iraq should go and fight for themselves?
3. John G 3

   8 September 2015 at 6:14 pm

   What if the reason they left Syria was because they didn’t want to get involved in killing people?
   I’m glad Winny said that, I was starting to think he wasn’t as bad as I thought.
   I’m comfortable I was right now.
4. marty mars 4

   8 September 2015 at 6:16 pm

   some commenters here have the same idea – shows an absolute unknowing of realities – can’t comprehend the attitude myself, it seems way way out there to me.
5. Roy 5

   8 September 2015 at 6:21 pm

   Utterly contemptible. Winston should go himself, at his own expense. In fact, I’d chip in.
   • Robert Atack 5.1

     8 September 2015 at 6:47 pm

     How about someone setting up a trust – ‘Send Winny to Syria’ via the banks, and if he doesn’t take up the offer the $ can go to some refugee charity ? … Compliments Winston Peters.
     • weka 5.1.1

       8 September 2015 at 7:03 pm

       Lol, very good Robert.
6. Anne 6

   8 September 2015 at 6:26 pm

   Stupid, stupid, stupid. Why are so many of them young, fit men? Because they are likely to be the ones with the best chance of making the hazardous journey in one piece just for starters. I have to conclude Peters is doing what Peters does best. Playing to the ignorant and the rednecks!

   Like you John G I was starting to think Winston wasn’t too bad…
   • Karen 6.1

     8 September 2015 at 7:06 pm

     I think it is a good reminder to those who think NZ First could be a coalition partner for Labour that Winston is an old fashioned Tory.
     • weka 6.1.1

       8 September 2015 at 7:10 pm

       which is a problem given how many lefties vote NZF.
     • Tracey 6.1.2

       9 September 2015 at 8:28 am

       the notion that the tories have the monopoly on bigots is silly. The left has its fair share of bigots and “red necks” and sexists.
       • save NZ 6.1.2.1

         9 September 2015 at 8:34 am

         +1 Tracy – their are loonies everywhere and in all political parties.
       • Karen 6.1.2.2

         9 September 2015 at 10:16 am

         Yep, but they don’t get to be the leader of the party.

         Peters has always modelled himself on Muldoon. Although Peters has considerably more charm Than Muldoon, behind that winning smile is a man willing to play to people’s prejudice and ignorance for political advantage.
         • Tracey 6.1.2.2.1

           9 September 2015 at 4:48 pm

           John Tamihere for example
           • Karen 6.1.2.2.1.1

             10 September 2015 at 10:01 am

             Tamihere is not, and never was, the leader of a political party.
         • save NZ 6.1.2.2.2

           11 September 2015 at 10:53 am

           Well John Key is the biggest loonie and a compulsive liar to boot. Look at what the Natz are doing to our country and economy and environment and a lot of it is permanent and not easily reversed!!

           Key is a Neoliberal Loonie.

           I think most of the politicians are willing to play to people’s prejudice and ignorance for political advantage. Singling one out does nothing.
   • McFlock 6.2

     8 September 2015 at 10:10 pm

     tl,dr: if single, young men really are disproportionately represented amongst refugees who make it to Europe, it’s probably because they can swim better than three year olds.

     I need a whiskey. Sigh.
7. Ant 7

   8 September 2015 at 6:45 pm

   Extraordinary idea. The one thing that would give the women, kids and the elderly a better chance of coping would be the moral and physical support of able bodied young men. I’m amazed at how the trauma, stress and physical hardship of being a refugee is routinely overlooked.
8. weka 8

   8 September 2015 at 7:01 pm

   This bit is interesting,

   “And if we’re going to do it, let’s bring the women and children and tell some of the men to go back and fight for their own country’s freedom, like we are.”

   (my emphasis).

   Does anyone know if Peters was ever in active service? I know he likes to swing punches, so I can see the macho aspect and its appeal, but that’s an odd thing to say. Maybe he means resisting immigration and asylum is a fight for one’s country’s freedom. Or bringing a wine box into parliament or whatever.
   • Pat 8.1

     8 September 2015 at 7:28 pm

     expect he is referring to the NZDF deployment training troops against ISIL….give a politician enough rope
     • weka 8.1.1

       8 September 2015 at 7:37 pm

       gods, that’s even worse. He’s comparing traumatised male war victims running for their lives with trained soldiers from a first world country being deployed far from home? The use of the word ‘we’ in that context is specious.
       • Tracey 8.1.1.1

         9 September 2015 at 8:29 am

         Yup. Next he will tell us “if i were younger I would be signing up to fight in Iraq myself”

         For the record, to my knowledge we have no troops fighting in Syria?
     • Bill 8.1.2

       8 September 2015 at 8:06 pm

       Remember how we were expected to support the Daesh when they were a part of the so-called Syrian Free Army fighting the Syrian state of Assad?
       • Pat 8.1.2.1

         8 September 2015 at 8:21 pm

         i dont but I do remember the PKK (YPG) were on the list of terrorist organisations, and may well still be
         • Bill 8.1.2.1.1

           8 September 2015 at 8:40 pm

           The people of Kobani defeated the Daesh and said at the time that the Daesh were getting support from Turkey. The US airforce provided some measure of air support for the Rojavans in the battle for Kobani, which is a canton within Rojava. Rojava is predominantly Kurdish, but politically separate from the nascent Kurdish state in Iraq.

           Anyway. Now the Turkish air-force has the green light from the west to bomb them.

           Go figure.

           And yes, the PKK is still considered to be a terrorist organisation by western governments. (Shouldn’t be imo)
           • Tracey 8.1.2.1.1.1

             9 September 2015 at 8:36 am

             as The Greens co-leader says, this is a very confusing time for some of our people/politicians

             ““The Countering Terrorist Fighters Legislation Bill, which was passed in this House yesterday after several minutes of careful consideration and thoughtful debate… is designed to stop New Zealanders from going to fight for the Islamic State, which is fighting the Iraqi government, which we support. And we will shortly be sending the military over to help Iraq fight the Islamic State, which definitely will not have any New Zealanders fighting with them because we said so – yesterday.

             “We also support Saudi Arabia, which also supports the Islamic State, which is fighting the government of Iraq, which we also support. The Middle East is a very supportive environment right now. Our military will feel well-supported when they get over there. I will tell this House whom we do not support, and that is President al-Assad in Syria. We do support some of the freedom fighters who are fighting against President al-Assad, who are primarily led by the Islamic State, but we do not support the Islamic State. We also do not support Iran, which also does not support the Islamic State, and which does support the government of Iraq, which we do support.”

             Which brings me to the excellent article in the Metro by Graham Adams titled:

             How bizarre: Is New Zealand becoming the Absurdistan of the South Pacific?

             well worth the read…
             http://www.metromag.co.nz/current-affairs/how-bizarre/
         • GregJ 8.1.2.1.2

           8 September 2015 at 8:50 pm

           Yes – the PKK aand its armed paramilitary wing the the Peoples Defence Forces – the HPG & the YJA-STAR (Women Units) are listed as terrorist organisations by the NZ Government.

           Turkey is of course using that as a reason to attack Kurdish Units in Northern Syria and Northern Iraq with air attacks – seemingly more strikes against them than Da’ish. I believe even the Syrian Kurdish Units of the Rojava (YPG/YPJ) have been targeted.

           Turkey’s role in the Syrian War and in the ongoing refugee crisis is pretty murky and obscure. It’s NATO & Western Allies are turning a blind eye to a lot of Turkey’s actions – particularly its treatment of Kurds both inside its own the country and inside Syria & Iraq.
           • GregJ 8.1.2.1.2.1

             8 September 2015 at 8:51 pm

             Ninja’d by Bill!
   • save NZ 8.2

     9 September 2015 at 8:39 am

     +1 – Winston has gone too far on this one. However in the interests of MSM bias was Winston even quoted correctly – remember the other day, Kelvin Davis was for Charter schools (apparently).

     Winston has the most chance of taking Nat votes off National in my mind so although I am not a NZ First voter I am a NZ First tactical supporter:)
9. RedLogix 9

   8 September 2015 at 7:21 pm

   http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/gallery/2015/sep/08/first-dog-on-refugees-let-them-all-come
   • marty mars 9.1

     8 September 2015 at 7:32 pm

     Ta – that 2nd one is very good
     • weka 9.1.1

       8 September 2015 at 7:42 pm

       speaking of cartoonists, a nice convergence of war machismo and flags,

       http://www.leunig.com.au/images/recent-cartoons/war-tweets-3.jpg
       • Tracey 9.1.1.1

         9 September 2015 at 8:47 am

         😉
10. tinfoilhat 10

    8 September 2015 at 7:47 pm

    Winston will be thinking that his position is probably good for a lift of a few percentage points in the polls.
    • The lost sheep 10.1

      8 September 2015 at 8:11 pm

      After the raging success of Chinagate, Labour will be rushing to copy this new Winston tactic?

      No no…just joking.
    • UniBoy_YoungVoter 10.2

      8 September 2015 at 11:13 pm

      Why and how so?

      Do yo think he is using the media to gain attention for himself?

      Do you really think it’s working for him?
11. Clemgeopin 11

    8 September 2015 at 9:36 pm

    I think Winston is actually making a poignant point about fighting the ISIS to protect their country, rather than leave it to the western young soldiers and other locals remaining there. But I agree, he made his point in a little clumsy way.

    Personally, I think the plan now should be to support and unify ALL the countries in the zone, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and all middle east countries to put their differences aside, cooperate and jointly fight and eliminate terrorists such as ISIS, Taliban and Al Qaeda….and for the western forces, including NZ, to withdraw from those regions as soon as possible and not be ‘directly’ involved. I don’t think any other way will work.

    A tall order, I know.
    • Clemgeopin 11.1

      8 September 2015 at 9:48 pm

      Also, all those countries should be persuaded to share the massive refugee burden.
    • les 11.2

      8 September 2015 at 10:08 pm

      ‘tall order’…understatement of the ..year!
    • weka 11.3

      8 September 2015 at 10:21 pm

      “I think Winston is actually making a poignant point about fighting the ISIS to protect their country, rather than leave it to the western young soldiers and other locals remaining there. But I agree, he made his point in a little clumsy way.”

      Clem, you seem to be equating trained soldiers with men running for their lives who aren’t soldiers. Are you suggesting that men should be soldiers because they are men?

      If someone doesn’t have the skill or training to be a soldier, and doesn’t want to be one, then you are asking them to be fodder in a war that has nothing to do with them other than an accident of geography. How can they fight the Daesh when they’re not soldiers?
      • Clemgeopin 11.3.1

        8 September 2015 at 10:33 pm

        No, I am not saying that.
        Obviously they should want to protect their country and people from the terrorists and if they are, then obviously they must be trained before they go back to do their bit….If they don’t want to, of course we can not force then to.

        These are extraordinary times needing extra ordinary solutions.
        • weka 11.3.1.1

          8 September 2015 at 10:42 pm

          So was Peters offering to pay for their training? Where? Sounded more to me that he thought they should man up and fight whether they were soldiers or not. And that he wasn’t talking about choice.
          • Clemgeopin 11.3.1.1.1

            8 September 2015 at 11:29 pm

            He expressed his view. Obviously it was a brief statement and I suppose he could not provide all the details you want in his sound bite. Now it is up to the journalists to do their job and ask him further questions.

            It is good to hear various points of views to broaden one’s thinking rather than everyone parroting each other’s views/sentiments.
            • Tracey 11.3.1.1.1.1

              9 September 2015 at 8:49 am

              I’d love to hear from the President of Syria. He’s been been very quiet for a very long time.
    • Bill 11.4

      8 September 2015 at 10:27 pm

      There are no ‘ western young soldiers’ on the ground in Syria. Funnily enough, western governments are having conniptions over the possibility that Russian troop deployment might soon be fighting the Daesh.

      Oh. And the likes of Australia is handing down 10 years in jail to any Australian who travels to the Rojava area to take up arms against the Daesh or help non-militarily within the cantons of Rojava. (Google Matthew Gardiner)

      edit: Should have said – ‘Officially’ there are no ‘western young soldiers’
      • Clemgeopin 11.4.1

        8 September 2015 at 10:39 pm

        That is because, the west is opposed to Assad and Iran, and is pro Saudi.

        Russians fighting there against US in reality will be a dangerous situation.

        Basically the whole thing is a western/US created mess.
        • McFlock 11.4.1.1

          8 September 2015 at 11:15 pm

          although Assad being propped up by the russians with arms sales probably didn’t help either.

          And the Turks playing sides against each other ain’t so hot.
          • Clemgeopin 11.4.1.1.1

            8 September 2015 at 11:32 pm

            Yes, a gigantic mess with the minute needle of the Armageddon clock possibly getting closer and closer…….

            The blood moon menace or the Ides of October hazards are near…..

            Prepare yourself. Sell your shares and shit……
            • McFlock 11.4.1.1.1.1

              9 September 2015 at 12:05 am

              no, a proxy war well away from the global powers.

              The South China Sea is much more dodgy, globally. Two superpowers looking at their sealanes.
        • Tracey 11.4.1.2

          9 September 2015 at 8:49 am

          isn’t Saudi Arabia kind of pro Isis?
          • McFlock 11.4.1.2.1

            9 September 2015 at 11:55 am

            let’s see, that would mean that the US is on the same side as Iran against ISIS and Saudi Arabia, but is on the side of Saudi Arabia against Iran and one of the factions in Yemen.

            Sounds about right. At the moment the Middle East reminds my of one of those snow globes that GW Bush shook up and it’s still settling.
            • Tracey 11.4.1.2.1.1

              9 September 2015 at 4:15 pm

              yup.
          • Phil 11.4.1.2.2

            10 September 2015 at 10:41 am

            isn’t Saudi Arabia kind of pro Isis?

            No, no they are not. If ISIS had its way, Saudi Monarchy would be wiped out for being capitalist running dogs, or secret supporters of Israel, or something even more daft.

            There’s speculation that Saudi Arabia is deliberately keeping oil supply up and prices low in an effort to dry up the funding ISIS gets from their oil wells.
            • Tracey 11.4.1.2.2.1

              10 September 2015 at 11:44 am

              James Shaw claims that Saudi Arabia is supporting ISIS.

              https://home.greens.org.nz/speeches/james-shaws-adjournment-speech-behalf-green-party
            • Tracey 11.4.1.2.2.2

              10 September 2015 at 12:04 pm

              http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html
12. adam 12

    8 September 2015 at 9:46 pm

    I suppose it was only a matter of time…

    I think Winny secretly wants to be a leader when our nation is at war.
    • UniBoy_YoungVoter 12.1

      8 September 2015 at 11:17 pm

      So why do you say that?

      I am interested in what you are exposed to?
13. North 13

    8 September 2015 at 10:08 pm

    Winston……WTF?……that’s jarring.
14. Smilin 14

    8 September 2015 at 11:28 pm

    MAYBE the suffering has led to the only intelligent move left – leave no one is going to save them or it would have been done by now
    Almost like smite me once smite me twice, you cant win this peace by living in destruction
    They are victims of every power
15. McFlock 15

    9 September 2015 at 12:11 am

    Anyone who thinks that refugees should be trained, armed and sent back to Syria to fight when they quite obviously want to be somewhere else altogether has obviously not heard about all the US-made guns, tanks and humvees ISIL/Daesh collected from the Iraqi army: near new condition, only dropped once.

    It’s a stupid idea on so many levels.
16. Mike the Savage One 16

    9 September 2015 at 12:37 am

    Well, having followed what is going on in Syria and Iraq for a few years now, I think that Winston may have taken a somewhat unusual stand, and a general one, but in my view, he has a valid point.

    It would be irresponsible to make refugee status a condition for males to take up arms and return to their homeland and fight, but it may make sense to support the buildup of a militia force, for those volunteering males from such places, who may then be willing to prepare to train and to go and fight.

    Those believing that there may be a solution achieved by sitting down and chatting over a cuppa tea with such ones like Islamic State fighters, and “negotiate” a peace deal, they are dreaming. And simply allowing Assad to continue slaughtering his own people, with even barrel bombs, that is equally insane.

    Sad thing is, we have a UN where the Security Council is dysfunctional, as Russia is actively supporting Assad and his army, same as Iran and Hezbollah, and on the other hand the US and some Gulf states support the odd Sunni fighting groups. And with that, with members of the Security Council being at loggerheads about Syria, there will be no end in sight of it all.

    If we had a UN and Security Council that would agree on such important matters, then it may pay to send a dedicated, pro democratic and Geneva Convention abiding fighting force in, for sure. As it is, it may still be necessary to support some armed group(s), as given the above, only a victory by one side will lead to a chance of a deal to come about, that may result in at least a cease fire.

    Or would those disagreeing volunteer to head to Syria and try negotiate with ISIS and also Assad?

    And just one more question, what is happening with that great agenda the NZ government had, to negotiate a peace deal between Palestinians and Israel, Mr McCully, have you any suggestions now? Perhaps try solve the Syria crisis first? Big words, no action, I reckon.
    • The Chairman 16.1

      9 September 2015 at 1:08 am

      Those more insightful disagree with your non negotiation stance.

      https://youtu.be/Bvh0W4GV9KQ
      • Mike the Savage One 16.1.1

        9 September 2015 at 9:18 pm

        Oh yeah, RT, of course, very “independent”, like CNN and maybe Fox News. But that aside, yes, the British have historic responsibilities for the disaster and what caused it, as a former colonial power, same as France and some other players.

        But going beyond the blame game, what we have is heavy intervention by Russia, where RT sits, to support the Assad regime:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia's_role_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War
        http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/assad-russia-signed-arms-deals-syria-conflict-150330125839558.html
        http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/09/07/428153/Russia-Syria-Zakharova-Lavrov-Daesh

        We have also the US, French and the British support some other groups that fight the Assad regime, we have Arab Gulf nations support various groups, in some ways you may blame them all for the refugee crisis, as they keep the fire going, the war that is.

        It is time to look further, and to look at possible solutions, not continue the blame game, so while NZ sits at the helm of the Security Council in the UN, what are McCully and his representative doing?

        NZ sits in a key position to move things, there you go, and while I dislike war and fighting, we need to be realistic, about what may be needed to get rid of the sectarian war in Syria and Iraq, both states that only still exist on maps that are outdated. I watched a discussion on AlJazeera last night, and they showed a map of how divided Syria is now, under control of various armed groups.

        Something needs to be done to either defeat all of them, by a determined stronger force, or to get the better ones around a table and force a deal, as they will not voluntarily sign anything, all still thinking they can win it all.

        Simply believing that doing nothing, and just accepting refugees will only assist Islamic State and other radicals, and solve nada.

        You may as well establish relations with ISIS if you suggest doing nothing. Let them become legitimate then, have their own state and rule as they please. Is that what you may be able to live with?
      • Mike the Savage One 16.1.2

        10 September 2015 at 12:43 am

        The same Annie seems to have a certain agenda:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swHBticroRo

        Same faces repeating themselves.
17. DH 17

    9 September 2015 at 8:00 am

    I have to wonder how people can so casually misinterpret simple words.

    to quote…

    “And if we’re going to do it, let’s bring the women and children and tell some of the men to go back and fight for their own country’s freedom, like we are.”

    Note the words ‘some of the men’. Everyone here went to school, we all know what “some” means. Why are people saying he wants to send back all of the men?
    • save NZ 17.1

      9 September 2015 at 8:44 am

      Thanks DH for clearing that up.

      Who is more dangerous National or NZ First?

      The left need to be tactical supporters of NZ First to get rid of National.

      Joining in to beat him up is not going to change the government next election.

      Tactics.
      • ZTesh 17.1.1

        9 September 2015 at 3:51 pm

        You seem to forget that Winston’s politics are more aligned to the conservative and right than they are to the left. As history shows us, he is just as likely to ally with National if they offer him a mere sniff of any power.
        • save NZ 17.1.1.1

          11 September 2015 at 10:48 am

          Even if the worst happens and NZ First aligns to National it is still better than 100% pure Natz in power as we have now. At least NZ First is not trying to sell off our country cheaply for example.

          I’m not sure NZ First can stand the Natz either so I’m not sure where they will go and it will be up to the left to try to broker a deal, but NZ First policy is more likely to take Nat votes than Labour in my opinion. The NZ First voters are the conservatives, farmers and right wingers who feel the government has gone too far but not quite ready to vote Labour. Everyone can fight over the oldies votes as they are anyones guess.

          It is probably not in NZ First interests to say they will go with Labour/Greens as this may scare off their potential voters but I do think Labour is too National Lite and that is scaring off their voter base. It is Labour that is the most schizophrenic and the Natz have gone too far now for most swing voters.
    • Tracey 17.2

      9 September 2015 at 8:51 am

      Thanks for the clarity. Now, to uncover who he meant by some.
    • McFlock 17.3

      9 September 2015 at 12:04 pm

      It’s not the “some” I have a problem with.
      It’s the “tell”, as in “direct”, “instruct”, or (dare I say it) “force”.

      If they submit to Winston “telling” them, how do you think they’ll react to ISIL shooting at them?

      Will they suddenly decide to hold their ground in the face of combat, when they changed their mind just because Winston told them to do something? Or will they forget their training, drop their equipment, and desert?

      Winston might as well just freight guns and ammunition direct to ISIL and cut out the middle man.
      • Tracey 17.3.1

        9 September 2015 at 4:25 pm

        A new kind of lottery

        Apply to come to NZ and some of you will get to live here and some of you will be chosen to be airdropped into syria with a NZ army gun to fight your cause. you don’t know which one you will get when you apply though… so, step right up
18. Mike the Savage One 18

    9 September 2015 at 10:04 pm

    New Zealand will be easy taking in future, as few will be prepared to fight for their country, I may conclude. That is the impression I get from reading some comments here. It does not surprise me, given the lack of initiative and action on many controversial topics over recent years. Let the “sleepy hobbits” go back to sleep, I suggest, sleep can do no harm. All is well in Aotearoa NZ.
19. Mike the Savage One 19

    9 September 2015 at 10:09 pm

    Comrade Trotter has thrown in his assessment and view of the situation, for those who may be interested:
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/09/09/making-a-desert-and-calling-it-peace-why-i-agree-with-winston-peters/

    “But not just the West. The Russian Federation and the Peoples Republic of China must also be part of the solution. A truly global force, assembled under the banner of the United Nations. Hundreds-of-thousands of soldiers: men and women of all colours and creeds, drawn from every continent, to cauterise the bleeding wound that is Syria. And in their wake the agents of international justice – for the sake of ruined Palmyra and its martyred guardian; for the sake of tiny, helpless, innocent Aylan.

    And in the vanguard of that mighty host, the young men of Syria: leading the attack; hewing down the flags of tyranny; setting their nation free.

    It’s all Winston Peters is trying to say: that Syria cannot be saved by emptying it of Syrians.”
20. WatchDog 20

    13 September 2015 at 1:48 pm

    “They might be terrorists”

    Yeah, and so could any Irish builder arriving to rebuild Christchurch.
21. Neville Longbottom 21

    13 September 2015 at 2:01 pm

    Winston Peters – risky call there mate! Does he know what reputation means?
    • watchdogguardian 21.1

      13 September 2015 at 3:06 pm

      lol
22. watchdogguardian 22

    13 September 2015 at 3:19 pm

    As I’ve explored this topic further, I’ve found that every day it gets worse, the conditions of people are getting worse and people are getting hurt.
    On the other hand, people like Winston peters, has put forth his idea of sending the men back to fight. He proposed to only keep women and children, not to mention the fact that New Zealand’s quota is a joke, compared to other countries intakes.
    America has proposed to take in 10,000 in the next year
    Germany 800,000
    “The proposed relocation scheme for 160,000 refugees from Greece, Italy and Hungary would go a long way to address the crisis,”
    Germany expects some 40,000 migrants to arrive this weekend.

    http://www.vox.com/2015/9/11/9309973/syrian-refugees-us

    However, New Zealand is also smaller in size and economic aspects, but I am confident we can do much more than 750 . We need to give shelter to people who are in immanent need, it is our duty as humans.
    But back to Winston’s comments , As Dr Zain Ali has mentioned , who is the head of Islamic Studies research Unit at the University of Auckland, that “NZ First leader was telling men to go back to a meat grinder”
    Despite the fact that New Zealand isn’t doing enough, you want to send men back to fight?
    “You are saying to them, ‘go and fight for your freedom’. But in Syria at the moment there are, according to the BBC, 1000 different rebel groups – which one do you want them to fight for?”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11509698

    There are so many misconceptions about the refugees. The article below should clear some people’s view.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/71983666/nevermind-the-comments-heres-the-syrians

    They might be terrorists.

    Yeah, and so could any Irish builder arriving to rebuild Christchurch.

    The Refugee Council can recall no cases where extremists entered New Zealand as part of the refugee programme. People involved in war crimes, terrorism or violations of international human rights law are excluded from refugee programmes. The security services carry out rigorous security screening. If you don’t believe me, ask Ahmed Zaoui.

    Chances are those running for their lives from Islamic State won’t be sympathetic to the militants’ creed.

    They’ll leap-frog Auckland families on state house waiting list

    Did you not hear the PM when he said most will be resettled in an existing Syrian community in WELLINGTON?

    Refugees are easier to place, because they don’t have existing ties or preferences.

    The Red Cross (which does the resettling) has been shifting refugees away from Auckland and Christchurch – to ease pressure on housing. Instead they are making a new life in places like Manawatu and Nelson.

    Also, Housing NZ doesn’t work that way. If a three-bedroom house becomes available it will go to a family rather than a single person or couple.

    These people are “country-shopping” and could have stopped in safer countries.

    Ever been in an refugee camp? Mostly they are cramped, with only basic amenities and no place to make a home. For those living outside of camps on the Syrian border, scratching out a living is a miserable, and often unsafe, existence.

    Refugees don’t plan – many don’t even pack. They take their chances with no idea where they will end up – perhaps Indonesia, Malaysia or Pakistan. Many wait years in camps there before resettlement.

    Only 26 countries take part in the UNHCR programme. These are the only places that guarantee refugees the same rights and protection as existing nationals.

    Muslim countries aren’t doing their bit.

    The borders of Syria’s neighbours are overwhelmed. Turkey is sheltering up to 2 million Syrians, spending $4bn. One in five people living in Lebanon is a refugee. Jordan is now home to well over 600,000 Syrians, and Egypt 1350,000. Infrastructure in these countries is creaking under the pressure.

    They are a drain on welfare/steal our jobs.

    Certainly, the unemployment rate among new arrivals is higher than average. This is because they are often deeply traumatised and need time to adjust or learn English. Their work experience and qualifications may not be recognised. Long term, experts recognise refugees – who are often entrepreneurial – are anxious to work and return to a normal life.

    Yes refugees compete for jobs – but economics 101 – they’ll spend money too.

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11510941
    • Xavier Hill 22.1

      13 September 2015 at 3:53 pm

      Media watch dog – A very long post but, worth the read

      uhh, yeah well I too agree New Zealand needs to do more. As you have talked about in your post , Germany and Sweden are two countries who are more than doing their bit. And The White House says President Barack Obama has told advisers he wants to let 10,000 Syrian refugees into the U.S. in the coming budget year.

      I read the link you have put in your post.
      Our quota has not grown since 1987, and we are ranked 90th in the world at hosting refugees. SHOCKING
      I haven’t live in New Zealand for long but I think too there are perceptions of these people.
      But my question is that what is going to happen next? when they arrive here , and can we expand the quota

      thanks
      Xavier

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1. In Our Back Yard – Manus Island and Nauru « The Standard: posted on 9 September 2015 at 12:06 pm

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