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Mana 2.0

Written By: - Date published: 12:41 pm, June 19th, 2016 - 255 comments
Categories: election 2017, hone harawira, mana, Maori seats, Politics, vote smart - Tags: , , ,

Hone Harawira has announced he is re-forming the Mana Movement and intends standing in the Te Tai Tokerau electorate at the next election. Harawira has also suggested that prominent pakeha mana leaders Sue Bradford and John Minto will have lower profiles this time around.

Harawira told Mihingarangi Forbes on TV3’s The Hui that he was re-forming the Mana Movement because Māori lacked a strong voice in Parliament. The man he has to beat in Te Tai Tokerau, Kelvin Davis, probably disagrees.

Mr Harawira first won Te Tai Tokerau as as a supporter of the National Government, then split from the Maori party to form the Mana party, winning the seat again in a by-election. Harawira’s decision to ally with Kim Dotcom’s Internet Party in 2014 was a disaster, with IP/Mana gaining just 1.5 percent of the party vote and losing Te Tai Tokerau to Labour’s Kelvin Davis.

Harawira says a partnership with Labour is unlikely, as he feels its leader, Andrew Little, has led the Labour party away from its working-class roots.

“He seems to be a nice enough guy, but he keeps bouncing around from trying to sound tough to trying to sound centrist, and I just think the leader of the Labour Party should have made up his mind by now. I think he sings from a different song sheet that boy, and it’s not exactly the song sheet that fits the Mana profile.”

So no chance of a Labour/Greens style arrangement then, which presumably means he won’t be winning Te Tai Tokerau back and Mana redux is probably dead in the water already.

Harawira is dismissive of the current maori MP’s:

“You’ve gotta have somebody in there who’s a fighter. Somebody who won’t be cowed by party politics or by Parliamentary politics, and is gong to stand up and say what needs to be said, whenever it needs to be said.

“Kelvin’s tried, I think Marama’s tried, but they keep getting squeezed back into that party box.”

There’s a couple of interesting points about Hone Harawira’s announcement. Firstly, it appears that he’s taken it upon himself to decide that the party needs re-tooling. That says a lot about the internal democracy of the party.

Secondly, demoting Bradford and Minto suggests that he wants to narrow the party’s focus. Again, it would be interesting to know if Harawira consulted with anyone about this. Did Minto and Bradford know they were being sidelined?

Frankly, I think Harawira would be better to take Bernie Sanders’ advice to his supporters and build a team to stand in local elections first. We have a round of council elections later this year and the Labour Party are going to be standing under their own banner in several towns and cities. Mana might want to test their support by doing the same.

Anyway, good on Hone for trying again. It’s just a shame that by distancing himself from Labour at a time when they are open to partnership approaches he has almost certainly doomed Mana 2.0 before it has even got started.


EDIT: Removed ‘Key’ from the third para. Harawira entered parliament in 2005 and at that election Don Brash led the National party. Thanks to the eagle eyed Lanthanide.



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255 comments on “Mana 2.0 ”

  1. Ad 1

    Why doesn’t he attach to the Greens? He’s a character worth having in Parliament, and just needs a little list updraft.

    Battling by himself won’t work.

  2. Lanthanide 2

    “Mr Harawira first won Te Tai Tokerau as as a supporter of the Key National Government”

    This wording gives a misleading impression.

    When he won the TTT, he wasn’t a support of the Key National Government. That only came after the election, and Hone showed that he actually did not himself support the Key government, by forming in the Mana party.

    • Good point. While I stand by essence of the sentence, it should read Brash, not Key.

      Hone first won TTT in 2005 and it’s been claimed, though not proven, that the MP wanted to back National at that time to form a Government. In 2008, the MP, including Harawira, did join the National Government. He may have changed his mind later, but he literally did support the Key Government.

      • Lanthanide 2.1.1

        Ahh, I was thinking Hone won TTT in 2008.

        In that case, I think what you’ve written is fine.

      • Olwyn 2.1.2

        OK, so it’s been claimed but not proven that in 2005 Hone wanted to back Brash – I assume these speculations would have revolved around the foreshore and seabed issue. At the moment, the imperative for the left is to change the government. If Hone is not a supporter the Key government, then Hone is not the enemy. And if he also wants to change the government, then to that extent at least he is a potential friend.

        • te reo putake

          For clarity, the claim was made by Gerry Brownlee and backed by Brash. However, it’s worth remembering that the Maori party MP’s welcomed Brash on to Ratana Pa during the post election coalition talks, so it was probably true that they were heading in that direction. In the end, Labour went with the Progressives (with support on C&S from NZF and UF) and it became a moot point.

          • Lanthanide

            Clearly the polling before the 2008 election would have had the MP talking amongst themselves about whether they would support a National government or not (and Helen had previously called them the “last cab off the rank”).

            Of course in 2008 they didn’t end up in the king-makers position, but by dealing with National they got their symbolic repeal of the Foreshore and Seabed act, and their baubles for Whanau Ora. Of course they would have been talking amongst themselves about those policies prior to the 2008 election.

            In that situation, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that Hone supported the Key government as he ran and won the TTT seat in 2008.

          • marty mars

            Brownlee and brash lol sure it wasnt slater and collins?

      • Marama Timihou 2.1.3

        i do not believe that Hone ever supported the National Government, he was a member of the Maori Party it was the Maori Party that he supported he was never comfortable with the Maori Party aligning with National

  3. Takere 3

    Sweet! Keep away from the Fat German or peeps like him and the goody goody white folks who jumped on your waka last time and sunk it. Do your own PR cause Liala f..k’d it up last time and helped scare away your core voters in the north …. do that and you should be ok. Take out the Maori Party brotha!

  4. save nz 4

    I think a deal should be considered between Labour and Mana. How about electorate vote Mana and party vote Labour?

    The main goal of the centre left opposition should be to forget the past and past disagreements and focus on a change of government from National and Act and the Maori Tories and hopefully get rid of United Future and the best way to get voters out there.

    Although scoffed at, the 1.5% party vote for InternetMana represents 35,000 party votes for them, more than the Maori party at 31,000, more than Act at 16,000, more than United Future at 5,000.

    The opposition need to count each vote.

    The message of non unity from the left, mean’t 1 million people did not vote last election.

    I am one of many voters who split my vote between electorate and party. If the left parties seem to be at war with each other, it is very discouraging as you vote because you do not know what will happen and it seems like personal disagreements are more important than policy and getting along for the sake of a better future. Disagreement costs the left votes and was the main message of National – they had nothing to offer apart from saying the left were a mess.

    Unfortunately that worked last election.

    • tangled_up 4.1

      Although scoffed at, the 1.5% party vote for InternetMana represents 35,000 party votes for them

      But how many votes will be lost from Labour making deals with Mana? I would think Labour have more to to lose than gain.

      • fisiani 4.1.1

        The 35,000 party votes were discarded and then redistributed. National therefore received 47% of those votes or approx 17,000. That was enough to ensure a National government. I’d personally love to see Mana 2 get 100,000 votes which would mean another 47,000 votes given to National. Every wasted party vote that Mana2 get also means that it it not used by another party of the Left.

    • Chooky 4.2

      +100 save nz…although if I were Mana I would not want to be joining with Labour….Mana is the real Left Labour Party and the real Maori Party…and Mana/Internet had a superb lineup of politician MP candidates

  5. Byd0nz 5

    Sorry Hone, a Marxist revolutionary call would be the go, smash this bullshit corporate crapitalism that only benefits the one percent and their underling traitors.

  6. Richardrawshark 6

    Maori lack quality electoral candidates AFAIAC and Hone the bigot is not worthy of representing them.

    Surely Maori can do better than Hone and Mana 2.0

    the left just lost 20 points no doubt, thanks Hone I thought this next election wouldn’t be full of nut jobs helping the right paint the left as weirdo’s.

    • Greg 6.1

      The left doesnt exist anymore, its been assimilated Borg like by the feminist collective, resistance is futile.

    • Jenny 6.2

      “Maori lack quality electoral candidates AFAIAC and Hone the bigot is not worthy of representing them.”

      Hone Harawira is a “bigot”, where is your proof of this?

      That Hone Harawira reached out to such Pakeha as John Minto, Sue Bradford, Laila Harre and Kim Dotcom would indicate that Hone Harawira is far from a bigot.

      The accusation made that Hone Harawira is a bigot or racist is a meme circulated by the extreme right.

      And who are you to say who is worthy, or not of representing Maori?

      Talk about patronising.

      • marty mars 6.2.1

        Nice comment Jenny

        Hone is a bigot is such a desperate lie of a line

      • Richardrawshark 6.2.2

        “Do you believe that white man’s bullshit, too, do you? White mother…..s have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries.”

        …not a bigot or racist, nope not Hone.

        • Jenny

          I presume Richard that because you haven’t provided the link that you have memorised this quote?

          Seems a lot of trouble to go to, and says more about you, than it does about Harawira.

          Or is it, that you haven’t provided the link so that you can avoid providing context?

          But apart from all that, and aside from hyperbole and the profanity, do you dispute it?

          Have you no idea of this country’s history?

          Are you in the John Key camp that claims New Zealand was settled peacefully?


          • Richardrawshark


            How about we put a bet on it, how about googling hone harawira racist and see what pops up like I did, grab a quote using cut and pasted it to my reply.

            “Hone Harawira is a racist, many Pakeha say after his outburst over questions about his Paris trip.

            In response to an email about it, he replied: “Do you believe that white man’s bullshit, too, do you? White mother…..s have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries”.. bla bla


            • BM

              Lots of lefty whites hate themselves because of who they are.

              They’re the by product of the evil colonialist oppressors so every thing Hone says isn’t racist and is in fact completely justifiable.

              You need to take this mindset into account if you want to be on team left.

              • Richardrawshark

                More worried about yours, BM, that sounds like the musings of a tripper.

                • BM

                  You obviously haven’t spent enough time around left wing people, Richard.

                  As a non left winger it’s something you really notice and it’s an attribute that sticks out like dog nuts.

                  • Richardrawshark

                    I’ve heard the term left, right winger bandied about haven’t got a clue what it means these days.

                    I think a real person has a mix of many parties policies they like.

                    you cannot label a type of voter. that’s just a way to degrade an opinion into a 2 horse race.

                    if you get what I mean. I struggle to understand myself at times.

              • Stuart Munro

                On the right however they love themselves – lying, tax-evading asset stealing, child molesting economic incompetents – and they don’t have a problem with any of it. The right are the factual basis for the evil colonial oppressors.

          • Richardrawshark

            Since I defended Fisi this morning and my un-eloquent comment yesterday, I have had a series of wild accusations about my political leanings, how I think, and then yours combining the whole tardy thing into a nice parcel of shit.


            • marty mars

              it wasn’t un-eloquent, it was fucked up, like your ‘you’d tap that’ comment the other day – you are showing your true colours and it ain’t pretty

          • marty mars

            I wouldn’t bother trying to convince rightwingers Jenny – The Mana Movement is like poison to them – they recoil like slugs to salt.

        • M. Gray

          But some of what Hone is saying is the truth Richard my father use to utter the same type of words back in the early 70s and our mother his wife is a Pakeha.
          These are often words people keep to themselves but sometimes people get so angry with the bad treatment they just explode like Hones does every now and then. I prefer a person that calls a spade a spade rather than the gutless ones that go on social media and run people down behind a key board.

          • Richardrawshark

            Oh too true M.Gray, heard it all my life, the point I always fail to show is perception, this is why Obama criticized Trump for the words he uses, As Obama said they are extremely careful about what they say for good reasons.

            I expect representatives to fight the cause but to rise above baseness and do it dignified. We are civilized beings, not lions fighting over a lioness.

            Hone showed a glimpse of his personal feelings and that shocked many people that one act may never be repaired and perhaps lost him any chance of being a more popular politician.

            His crassness caused me to disrespect his ability for self control, that is why I would never send my vote his way. I have never disliked his policies, I just dislike his credentials as a leader. Sorry.

        • trendy leftie

          ‘”Do you believe that white man’s bullshit, too, do you? White mother…..s have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries.”’

          I’d say he was just telling the truth.

      • Richardrawshark 6.2.3

        as for better candidates,

        There is plenty with a better manner than the angry Hone in my opinion and Jenny, patronising I am not.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Manners obviously mean more to you than representation. Do you believe Hone Harawira has a constituency?

          • Richardrawshark

            Manner and Manners are two completely different things OAB.

            Manner as in mannerism, the way one conducts oneself.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              Exactly. The way one conducts oneself can be a powerful tool of representation.

              • Richardrawshark

                definitely OAB.

                Hone has a constituency? not presently, unless by that you mean a voter base that supports his style and policies yes, that is not a constituency as far as I understand the meaning of the word.

                To me, he seems to say he is the man who represents Maori best and represents them with a passion, this seems excuses for his low brow behaviour, I think that in fact it is patronising to Maori, that, he in fact talks down and uses coarse rude and offensive language and this assists in the confirmation to some of the stereotyping of Maori.

                He could set high standards, an example, doing far more good than appealing to the lowest common denominator of voter intelligence.


                meh then I re-read, he still needs to relate all types of people, man politics is hard, you can’t please everyone that’s for sure.

                Think i’m saying, I feel for Maori, I didn’t think the Maori party have achieved much, Hone seems to have pissed off to many people now to make much inroads. Maori need a new voice I suppose i’m saying.

                • srylands

                  I have been reading your comments for several days. You are like a breath of fresh air at The Standard. Someone from the left who is articulate, and who makes sensible suggestions for how the left could actually connect with the people required to win an election.


                • You know nothing dick – you feel for Māori? big fucken deal – your comments show that you know fucken shitall – and now the right wing idiots are falling over themselves to give you a pat on the head – like likes like I spose.

                  there you go voice – getting what you wanted from this post now eh???

                  • Richardrawshark

                    Whatever Marty.., your obviously wound up and making me out to be something I am not in your head. Go see a Dr and get it sorted.

                    ranting like a weirdo and painting me as some villain. Sort it out.

        • Jenny

          “patronising I am not.”

          Now you are sounding like Yoda, the most patronising animatronic character ever created.


          • Richardrawshark

            LMAO, good ice breaker, cheers Jenny, can we be friends again? if your actually upset with me 🙂

            • Jenny

              Maybe, if you answer the question I asked you at

              Stripped of all the profanity and hyperbole, is Harawira wrong?

              Mana 2.0

              • Richardrawshark

                Wrong about? I need to know the proper question.?

                Are you in the John Key camp that claims New Zealand was settled peacefully?

                surely your not seriously thinking I think that? Seriously?

                John key talks shit, end of, I do not, repeat do not agree with anything he said. I’m not even reading it the headline says it all.

                But I also havn’t read what Hone thinks about it, it’s not been of interest to me as a topic of conversation so far, till now I suppose.

                History has taught me when I grew up there were several wars, The English signed a treaty unable to defeat maori in some area’s, they used maori against Maori, there was forced adoptions, I mean..John Key talks shit Jenny.

      • Chooky 6.2.4

        +100 Jenny

    • North 6.3

      Get a grip RRShark. You’re raving.

  7. weka 7

    Wow, that knife must have already been sharpened and ready, eh trp?

    Well done on creating a misleading and partisan post before the announcement even hit the ground, one that can only be designed to be divisive. Hard to see what the point is, given that Labour need as much help as they can get.

    • Meh. Hone made the announcement that he will not work with Labour, not the other way round. If you have a complaint, take it up with him. As I noted in the post, it’s a bit weird for Hone to write off a possible partnership when Labour are open to discussions about exactly that possibility. Not that I’m suggesting Labour would have done a deal in TTT, just that such arrangements are clearly on Labour’s agenda at the moment and it would have been in Mana’s interests to explore it further.

      • marty mars 7.1.1

        You dont understand Mana and all of your pronouncements on what’s good for mana are based actually on what you think is good for labour

        • Ad

          He needs to something pretty different from last time, because he sucked.

          • marty mars

            I agree that doing what happened last time wont work. Sadly all of the injustices and inequlity that drove the Mana Movement to coalesce originally have got worse – so the need for a voice in parliment is still needed.

            • Colonial Viper

              Everyone forgets that Hone got more votes in 2014 than in 2011. And that he lost his electorate by less than 800 votes.

              • weka

                Yep. The thing that I find really sad is that some centre lefties still don’t want better representation for NZ. And the irony is that now the GP look like they might finally get into government, those centre lefties are fogetting that this shit is exactly what was done to the GP all those years, one of the consquences of which was 3 terms of a pretty nasty RW govt.

                I just wish they would be more honest and say they don’t want NZ shifting left again. Problem there is that Mana’s policies are actually good and within the realm of what NZ could be doing.

          • save nz

            Actually Internet Mana doubled their party votes. Something they were saying clearly was successful to the public.

            It is clearly a bone of contention between the left about what would have happened if Labour had not gone so hard after Te Tai Tokerau.

            I think Labour need to stay focused on 67% Pakeha NZ as it’s main target.

            Maori have a lot of suitors. The Maori Party, Labour, Greens and Mana. Maori are 15% of the vote.

            I’m just trying to be practical here, because the best thing for Maori is a change of government and Labour need to concentrate on lost votes not fighting in a s*&h fight with a lot of other parties for a small percentage who have a huge choice of parties fighting for their vote and probably are less likely to vote!

            Even if Mana have rejected Labour’s advances, having so many pro Labour snide comments against Mana is obviously not going to mend those bridges.

            Do Labour and Mana want a change of government? If so, they need to communicate and have some sort of strategy – even if it to oNLY not bad mouth each other in public.

            Each left fight or bad mouthing, is giving votes to National or stopping people from thinking of voting for an alternative.

            • Ad

              By “sucked” I meant “got nothing, no seats in the House, lost”. I’m sure that’s clarified things.

              He doesn’t need weak defence from anyone and isn’t asking from any political social welfare like you propose.

              He need to do something different so he doesn’t suck.

              • “so he doesn’t suck”

                pretty subjective there ad and sure by the rules of getting into parliament it sure sucked not getting over the line.

                Luckily it is not actually a win/lose game – it is much more subtle than that even though the ‘winners’ would argue differently.

              • Hanswurst

                That’s a novel definition of the word “suck”. It’s nice to know that the Black Caps at the 2015 world cup and the All Blacks at the 1995 World Cup “sucked”, that the Labour election campaign in 1996 “sucked”, that Bernie Sanders’ campaign for the Democratic nomination so far has “sucked”. The list of suckers is endless.

        • Skinny

          He is dreaming if he thinks he beat Davis and he won’t get the required 5 % of the party vote.

          The the Maori Tory party are exactly that. They won’t deal with him. Give it up Hone a one trick pony isn’t going to cut it.

        • Nessalt

          Same high handed approach he took the Red/Green wedding. As long as it’s all good for labour and the smaller parties knuckle under, they are welcome to stand at the press conferences nodding their heads and smiling.

          it’s a common born to rule trait amongst die hard labour supporters since H1 left

      • weka 7.1.2

        It’s MMP trp. Which means that Mana could end up being helpful or even critical to the formation of a left wing government via C and S. Which you know full well.

        Or they might end up being useful for support on getting legislation passed.

        Harawira saying what you claim doesn’t mean that Mana aren’t part of the deal if they get in again. But I take it you are one of the centre lefties who would rather see Labour in opposition again than to have to work with Mana. That’s the only way I can take your comment and the post tbh. Yes, I did hear you saying it’s all HH’s fault, now where have I heard that kind of talk before? And how does it help exaclty other than to assert that you don’t want Mana to be part of the play. Too bad if you knock them out when they are needed.

        • te reo putake

          So write to Hone and tell him why he’s wrong to reject the possibility. And stop the strawman arguments. They’re boring.

          • weka

            In other words, you don’t understand my argument or are deliberately misinterpreting it and avoiding making an argument of your own (I suspect the latter).

            You can make all the assertions you like but until you make an actual argument they’re just dust in the wind.

            • te reo putake

              Your argument is false, given that Hone rejects doing a deal.

              • Hanswurst

                Given how little indication there is that he actually does reject doing a deal, where does that leave your argument?

                • weka

                  Trp doesn’t have one, which is the problem when one makes misleading arguments to begin with, there is nothing then to back them up.

              • weka

                I’ve already explained that trp. Are you really having that much trouble following my argument?

              • he hasn’t rejected anything – your sentence is false and misleading – wonder why…

        • swordfish


          From your previous comments above
          “Labour need as much help as they can get”
          ” … this shit is exactly what was done to the GP all those years, one of the consequences of which was 3 terms of a pretty nasty RW govt.”

          From your comment immediately above
          “It’s MMP trp. Which means that Mana could end up being helpful or even critical to the formation of a Left wing government …”
          ” … centre-lefties who would rather see Labour in opposition again than to have to work with Mana.”
          “Too bad if you knock them out when they are needed.”

          From your comments below
          ” … some would rather risk losing the election than work with natural allies.”
          “Let’s just hope that Labour don’t lose the election by that one seat.”

          As a bona fide Leftie (rather than Centre-Leftie), I’d suggest that Labour and the Greens are at far greater risk of losing the next Election if voters come to believe that any putative Labour-led Govt would be in any way reliant on Harawira and Mana to govern.

          Let’s be crystal clear here – both the Mana Party and the Internet Party were absolutely toxic to voters at the last Election. Even the faintest whiff among the New Zealand Electorate that Harawira might play a crucial role in allowing a Labour-led Govt to be formed will scare the bejesus out of a whole swathe of potential swing voters.

          Here are the 2014 New Zealand Election Study stats on voters’ views of the minor parties
          …………..Like….Neutral….Dislike….Strong Dislike (sub-set of Dislike)

          ……….. Strong Like vs Strong Dislike

          ……. Broad Like vs Broad Dislike

          Proportion of voters wanting Internet-Mana in government – 6%

          2011 NZES
          Proportion who say they would never vote Mana = 65%

          2014 NZES
          Proportion who say they would never vote Internet-Mana = 75%

          2014 NZES
          Leaders – Dislike …. Strongly Dislike (sub-set of Dislike)
          Harawira ….64% ………… 53%

          And all of that is quite apart from potential kingmaker Winston’s vehement (bottom line) antipathy to the prospect of any Govt that includes what he considers to be “Separatist” and “race-based” parties.

          Even us Lefties need to live in the real world. After 3 consecutive election defeats … wishful thinking needs to be given a good boot up the arse and unceremoniously chucked out the window.

          • weka

            Where are you getting those figures from swordfish? I’m looking and seeing something different,


            So Labour and the Greens carry on with their plan to lead the next govt. They campaign separately. The Greens don’t stand anyone in TTT just like last time.

            Harawira stands in TTT, says he’s not interested in being in coalition with Labour (which is pretty much how I read today and I think that’s healthy for Mana).

            What are you suggesting? That the left shun Mana? Serious question.

            • swordfish

              NZES respondents were asked to indicate how much they liked or disliked the various Parties on a scale of 0-10.

              0 = The most vehement Dislike
              5 = A purely Neutral attitude
              10 = A deep and abiding Love for the Party

              Broad Dislike = Respondents choosing 0-4
              For Mana, this = 64.4% (hence my 64%)
              For Internet, this = 75.3% (hence my 75%)

              I’ve interpreted Strong Dislike as all those choosing 0-2 (ie all Unfavourability other than the mild dislike indicated by those choosing 3 and 4)
              For Mana, this = 56.4% (hence my 56%)
              For Internet, this = 71.3% (hence my 71%)

              I’d classify 0-1 as Vehement Dislike and those choosing 2 as indicating Strong (neither vehement nor mild) Dislike.

              Or – to put it another way – I don’t think you could sustain the argument that Mana were toxic only to those who chose 0.

              • weka

                Ok, so ACT are on 53% of broadly dislike. Still not getting what your point is swordfish. Are you suggesting that the left marginalise Mana? Or what?

                • swordfish

                  I’d say Mana are already pretty marginalised.

                  I’m simply suggesting that a crucial section of voters will be scared away from Labour and the Greens if they believe a Labour-led Govt will in any way be reliant on Harawira and Mana in order to govern. I’m not going any further than that.

                  Just to clarify how toxic Mana and the Internet Party were to voters at the 2014 General Election (and that antipathy almost certainly went some way into ranks of Labour and Green voters) …

                  Minor PartyVisceral Dislike (0-1)Strong Dislike (0-2)

                  Minor Leader ……….. Visceral Dislike ….. Strong Dislike
                  Flavell (Maori)……………………….15%…………………….21%
                  Norman (Greens) ………………….18%…………………….26%
                  Peters (NZF)…………………………..18%…………………….27%
                  Turei (Greens)……………………….19%……………………..26%
                  Dunne (UF)…………………………….22%…………………….32%
                  Whyte (ACT)…………………………..25%…………………….32%
                  Craig (Cons)…………………………..30%……………………..38%
                  Harre (Internet)……………………..43%……………………..51%
                  Harawira (Mana)……………………45%………………………53%

                  Incidentally, when people were asked to place Mana and Internet on the Left-Right spectrum, large proportions (46% for Mana), (55% for Internet) were Unsure where they sat. So the toxicity appears to be more a consequence of voters’ profoundly negative feelings towards the Leadership / High Profile Figures (Harawira, Dotcom and Harre) rather than the idea of leftist ‘extremism” per se.

                  Personally, I’m a big fan of Harre’s and party-voted Alliance in both 99 and 02. But, like I say, after 3 consecutive election defeats, we need to cut the wishful thinking and get real.

                  (Note: On an entirely different matter, these figures also demonstrate what a load of baloney the Greens are Toxic meme perpetrated by Hooton and various other Usual suspects truly is)

                  • weka

                    “I’d say Mana are already pretty marginalised.”

                    I think you are avoiding my question 🙂

                    Do you think the toxicity works the other way? eg people not voting National because of Act or Conservatives?

                    • Lanthanide

                      It’s different, because National are on a solid 45%+, so any propping up by a minor party won’t make much difference to their policy agenda (and in the case of ACT, lets National do some of the things it wants to do any way, and blame any bad outcome on ACT).

                      People perceive that differently to Labour, who combined with the Greens still don’t make 45% themselves, so they see a minor party as potentially having more sway in such a government than they would see with National + others.

                      And, if National truly did have to rely on the Conservatives, then yes, I think they would lose some votes from that situation. Which is why they didn’t do any official deal with them in 2014 – they correctly calculated that the Conservatives getting 4%+ was a much better outcome for them than the Conservatives getting 5%+ or an electoral seat would be.

                    • swordfish

                      Yeah, it’s a good point, weka. I partially accepted that argument in a comment I made on The Standard a few months ago … here … http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13042016/#comment-1159796


                      (1) See Lanth – National far more dominant than Labour within any future coalition Govt and so contrasting voter perceptions of minor party influence on a Labour-led compared to Nat-led Govt.

                      (2) A large minority strongly dislike ACT and the Cons. And, although I don’t have the breakdowns, I think it’d be reasonable to assume that the overwhelming majority of them are Opposition supporters. So, National can live with a whole lot of current Labour, Green and NZF voters being antagonistic. The brutal truth is: they still constitute a minority. And National’s shown that it’s adept at cultivating just the barest majority needed to maintain power.

                      By contrast, an absolute majority of voters strongly dislike Mana – 56% (0-2 score) / 61% (0-3 score) – with an overwhelming majority (71%-74%) holding profoundly negative views of an Internet Party that quite possibly continues to taint Harawira, Minto and Mana by association.

                      Labour and the Greens need a portion of those Mana-haters to win power. Simple as that.

                    • weka

                      ok but it’s an assumption that because people actively dislike Mana/Harawira that would automatically translate into them not voting Labour right? We don’t actually know how many would or wouldn’t? I know people who were appalled by KDC last time but there is no way they would vote on the right.

            • Hanswurst

              Pretty much. Labour should not actively accommodate Harawira, much less endorse him. They should simply ignore him and give Davis a decent list standing. If Harawira doesn’t get over the line, they haven’t lost anything; if he does, and even brings one or two more in with him, those are votes in the house that potentially make it harder for the media and the parliamentary Right to spin left-leaning legislation as contentious.

          • Richardrawshark

            Thanks, well said. SF

          • leftie

            +1 Swordfish

          • weka

            “And all of that is quite apart from potential kingmaker Winston’s vehement (bottom line) antipathy to the prospect of any Govt that includes what he considers to be “Separatist” and “race-based” parties.”

            Ae, and we remember what Peters has said about the Greens. The only reason he won’t go hard out against them now is because the balance of power has shifted. Which means we’re in danger of endorsing bullying.

          • marty mars

            I personally like that the centre left, centre right, middle, gnatlabourswingers, key lovers can’t stand Hone or Mana – I LOVE IT!!! While those crews keep shuffling the bullshit from one side of the paddock to the other the Mana Movement gets out there and does the work. ‘But we need to be in parliament to get anything done’ – yeah nah look at what your parliament has done to date – how many homeless? How much injustice? How many disadvantaged? How much inequality? THAT is the legacy of the system geared up for the system. That is the glory of the parliament and it’s political system and I name it MUD.

            • Richardrawshark

              I can’t stand Key and national, Thought Mana and IP wrecked , sabotaged and created a joke out of last election. I don’t like Hone, and he’s left, and so am I. Get over it, stop stereotyping Marty it’s wrong.

      • Hanswurst 7.1.3

        Even ignoring the question of whether electoral success is the be-all and end-all for a movement like Harawira seems to be interested in, I think this is completely wrong. I don’t think that either Mana or Labour would benefit from endorsing each other, however weakly. Looking at things from a truly pragmatic point of view ,rather than the sort of pretend dispassionate rationalism you espouse while actually advocating supporting a centrist Labour at all costs, it would be best for Labour to promote Davis in the caucus soon, then give him a high list-ranking at the next election without further comment, while ensuring that he keeps a relatively low public profile (or having him stand as list-only or elsewhere); Labour and Mana could then campaign without endorsing each other, but equally without getting in each others’ way. That would maximise support for both parties while ensuring that any tainting by association is minimal in either direction.

        • weka

          Yep. Best case scenarion L/G govt with Mana on 2 seats outside of govt but giving C and S and the Mp too either inside or outside of government. I know it’s been a long time, but really do we lack any imagination now of how things might be?

          Of course some would rather risk losing the election than work with natural allies. The GP know this from bitter experience, so good to see Labour have moved on and learned how to work together. Let’s hope the next step doesn’t take as long, the cost to NZ would be massively high.

      • Hanswurst 7.1.4

        Hone made the announcement that he will not work with Labour […].

        The article you linked to doesn’t actually sustain your categorical reading of it. The word used is “unlikely”, and it isn’t attributed to him, just reported in an attempt to summarise his views. Do you have a source for Harawira announcing that he will not work with Labour, or is one reporter’s summation of some quotes critical of Labour’s leader and current direction all you are going on?

        ETA: Another report makes your characterisation look even less likely to be accurate, from stuff:

        Who will Mana work with? Maori Party, Greens, possibly Labour, possibly NZ First. Definitely not National, United Future or ACT.

        • weka

          Nice one. There is also a range of ways for parties to work together. I seriously doubt that Mana wouldn’t support a left wing govt on C and S unless that govt were doing something seriously objectionable (been known to happen).

        • leftie

          Your link says Hone “wasn’t so keen on teaming up with Labour leader Andrew Little.”

          I’m a bit surprised he had a dig at Dotcom as well, after he said he would be happy to team up with him again. But it’s obvious he is now trying to distance himself from that association.

          • weka

            what do you think teaming up means in that context?

            • leftie

              Thought is was self explanatory Weka.

              • weka

                Not by the look of some of the comments. Lost track of this thread, but he hasn’t ruled out confidence and supply, right?

                • leftie

                  Don’t know Weka, he hasn’t ruled it in either.

                  • weka

                    But it’s likely that were Labour not doing anything completely munted re Māori that Mana would support a left wing govt. Or can you think of a reason why the wouldn’t? That’s very different than wanting to be in coalition with them. I don’t know why we are so bad at being able to discuss MMP. It’s the same with the GP who use the term ‘work with’ quite specifically (and differently from Mana), but people still insist on interpreting it in ways that the GP clearly don’t mean.

          • Hanswurst

            Your link says Hone “wasn’t so keen on teaming up with Labour leader Andrew Little.”

            So not “ruling out” working with Labour, then. Glad you understood.

            • leftie

              It’s ambiguous. It didn’t say that Hone would work with Labour though.
              Andrew little is Labour’s leader, can’t see how you think Hone can work with Labour and exclude Andrew Little.

              • Hanswurst

                It’s not ambiguous at all. Every quoted statement of Harawira’s is adequately clear. It’s just that none of them allows any conclusion as to whether or nit he might come to some understanding with Labour. Seeing as it is chiefly TRP making categorical statements about that uncertainty, and seeing as those categorical statements are essential to his arguments, the inescapable conclusion is that TRP’s argument is very poorly supported. At best, they are wishful thinking, at worst, spin.

                • leftie

                  Well, that’s just your opinion, but by your own roundabout admission in your first paragraph, it is indeed ambiguous.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 7.2

      Well said Weka.

      Subtle as a brick.

  8. Greg 8

    Bradford and Minto on board will be like having concrete boots.
    Just go independent.

  9. Classic, you trp discussing the Mana Movement is like cv talking about Labour. Watch and see what happens is my advice.

    • weka 9.1

      Pretty much. Disappointing to see such a post go up before the announcement is barely out. Almost like trp wanted to control how the conversation went. At least CV had the good grace to not rain on the GP/L announcement in such a way.

      • Christ on a bike! This is a political website, weka. It was a bit of political news, so I wrote about it. You could have too, but you didn’t. Lazy.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Defensive. Passive aggressive. Sad. All these things can be said of CV*. I certainly don’t want to be involved in a moderation incident.

          *conditions apply.

        • weka

          Still can’t mount an argument trp, and still misinterpreting my comments, which are highly political. And now resorting to ad homs, really?

          Just to restate in case it wasn’t clear, your post appears to me to be far more than announcement. It’s deliberately using the announcement to get the book in quick (your antipathy towards Mana is well known, so it’s not a surprise). You can of course do this, no-one is going to stop you. I can also make my own points in response, which I have done.

          • marty mars

            Fair points I think there weka.

            It is very important to set the framing correctly – for instance this line,

            “Mr Harawira first won Te Tai Tokerau as as a supporter of the National Government”

            Why put that line in? It’s true says someone forgetting all of the other truths that came after, including the attacks almost constantly on the gnats and key – but that isn’t the framing.

            Some labour supporters expect any other party to come cap in hand, head bowed, stepping quietly under the wide umbrella of benevolent labour – they will be SO grateful that the blessings of labour are now bestowed because they came toward labour in the correct posture, mood and servitude – NOW they can be of service to the left, nah to labour.

            Mana are NEVER going to do that and notwithstanding the right wings memes HAVE never done it – some labour supporters cannot get their head around that.

            • weka

              The irony of that is that trp is claiming that were Mana to come cap in hand they’d be welcomed. I just don’t see any evidence of that.

              And agreed that they shouldn’t. Keeping their distance from Labour seems healthy to me, although I wish HH has better PR skills.

              • Strawman. I never said that. However, ruling Labour out, as Hone seems to have done, ends any debate.

                • weka

                  Clear implication that Labour are open to working with Mana,

                  It’s just a shame that by distancing himself from Labour at a time when they are open to partnership approaches he has almost certainly doomed Mana 2.0 before it has even got started.

                  Or maybe you didn’t mean to include Mana in that.

                  I don’t see HH ruling out C and S. Which is my whole point. As you well know and keep ignoring. In fact we don’t know what HH meant, and Hanswurst has provided some other context elsewhere in the thread. It’s you, trp, that is running the line that Mana will never work with Labour in any way at all.

                • weka

                  And seeing as how you are logged in, can you please let my comments out of moderation?

                • leftie

                  Well yeah, shooting himself in the foot before he is even out of the starting gate, seems self defeating.

                • RedLogix

                  I’d imagine Hone’s done a simple pragmatic calculation; that he’s unlikely to swing much of the traditional Maori Labour vote, so he has to make his pitch elsewhere.

                  And looking like he’s going to be a Labour lapdog from the outset would not be smart.

                  • Yep wise words red

                    the fact that some cannot get their heads around – the middle swinger parties are NOT where the constituents for Mana are and never have been. It is absolutely dumb arse politics to not see the advantage for the LEFT in this.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      There is nothing for the Left in having Hone and Laila in Parliament


                      That’s certainly how some from bigger parties were strutting that story

                  • Correct. There’s a bit of positioning going on from Hone. And why not? If he can’t differentiate himself from the rest of the left, he has no hope. Equally, if he can’t work with them, he has no hope.

                    • weka

                      What evidence is there that he can’t work with them?

                    • Hone saying he’s not keen. It’s linked to in the post.

                    • weka

                      Actually it’s linked in one of Hanswurst’s comments not in the post. But that’s right, he’s not keen, and the reference is specifically to not being keen to team up with Little. Nothing about “can’t work with” Labour eg on C and S.

                    • Hanswurst

                      @TRP: firstly, saying that you are not keen on working with someone is not strong evidence that you can’t work with them. Secondly, he hasn’t even said that. What he said is that he anticipates the policy direction (or lack thereof) of Labour. His reasons for that could range from appealing to a separate constituency from traditional Labour voters, to avoiding being seen as the smallest of Labour’s guaranteed lapdogs. Your interpretation goes well beyond simply analysing what he said.

              • leftie

                Hone shooting himself in the foot seems very unhealthy to me. HH needing better PR skills is an understatement.

  10. Nick 10

    I thought this was politics. They say one thing and do another

  11. Karen 11

    I have a lot of time for Hone Harawira (and his wife Hilda) and I wish him luck. I always thought joining up with Kim Dotcom and the Internet Party was a huge mistake and if that hadn’t happened Hone would have retained TTT.

    Kelvin Davis will certainly be high on the party list next time so won’t have to win the seat , so maybe some of those who changed their vote from Hone to Kelvin in 2014 because they didn’t like Kim Dotcom will return to Hone in 2017 knowing that both Hone and Kelvin would get into parliament.

    • Jenny 11.1

      “Kelvin Davis will certainly be high on the party list next time so won’t have to win the seat…”

      At last some sense.
      Would Kelvin Davis agree to go on the list, especially if he is given a high ranking, knowing that Harawira could bring in one extra MP with, which might be the difference between a Labour led coalition or a National led coalition.

      Quite likely number 2 on the Mana list will be Annette Sykes. Who all commentators seem to agree would be boon to the Left in Parliament.

      • Karen 11.1.1

        Jenny – I assume you mean would Kelvin just go list only.

        I doubt it and nor should he. Hone needs to win the seat by getting the support of the people of his electorate

        • Jenny

          Jenny – I assume you mean would Kelvin just go list only.

          Either or, wouldn’t bother me.

          What are you suggesting?

          That Kelvin not put up much of a campaign?

          In my opinion a vicious sectarian contest between the two would not serve their constituents, many of whom share familial ties to both, and would be happier to see them working together.

          I find it strange that on other threads discussing the recently signed MoU between the Green Party and the Labour Party, possible electoral accommodation and vote splitting was openly talked about.

          Why can not this sort of proposed cooperation be extended to the Maori electorates?

          Especially when all the votes that go to Harawira and his Mana Party will only be counted if he regains TTT, and these extra votes could make the difference over which party gains the treasury benches.

          I also have seen some conjecture that the recent rise in the polls of the Labour and Green Parties has been due to the warmer relations between the two being greeted favourably by the voters.

          How more marked would this effect be in Te Tai Tokerau?

          Or indeed, even further afield.

        • weka

          “I doubt it and nor should he. Hone needs to win the seat by getting the support of the people of his electorate”

          I understand that’s how Labour usually sees it. But it’s a FPP hangover. Let’s just hope that Labour don’t lose the election by that one seat.

          • Karen

            I disagree Weka. Hone has won that seat twice before without help from another party and could do again. If he can’t without other candidates standing aside then there will be questions raised about his claims to represent Māori – this is, after all a Māori seat.

            Labour, like the Greens, stand in candidates in electorates they cannot win in order to get party votes. I know many on TS think Green Party candidates should stand aside in some electorates to allow Labour candidates to win – I am not one of them. The only time I would advocate that is during by-elections when party votes don’t come into it.

            In 2017 if voters want both Hone and Kelvin to get into parliament then they vote for Hone as candidate and party vote Labour.

            • weka

              Except for those that choose Davis as their electorate choice because they value that over national politics.

              I understand the argument just made but it still doesn’t address my point, that the left could lose the election by that one seat. Some think the principle is worth that. I don’t.

              • Karen

                I don’t think you do understand my argument Weka. Every party wants as many party votes as they can get, and if there is no candidate standing in an electorate they will miss out on party votes. You need a candidate to promote your party in the electorate. Those party votes could also contribute to that one seat.

                You also have ignored the fact that this is a Māori electorate and Hone is suggesting he would do a better job for Māori than the current Māori MPs. If a majority of Māori in his electorate agree then they will vote for him as they have in the past. I have been told by Māori friends in Northland that the involvement of Kim Dotcom was a major reason for Hone not retaining his seat at the last election, so he has a good chance I believe.

                • weka

                  re your first paragraph, I agree and have been making that same argument in defence of the Greens for a long time. But it still doesn’t address my point. In the case of Labour, any drop in party vote by having Davis high on the list and campaigning lightly in TTT is not going to be as bad as the left block having one less party in parliament. Note that the Greens didn’t stand anyone in TTT last election.

                  I agree re Māori voting for their electorate choice, and have no problem with the idea that KDC put people off. I didn’t ignore this, it was inherent in my last comment. But the point still stands, it’s a real risk for Labour if it comes down to that one seat and giving National another term. You get the maths involved right? Labour won’t get another MP from having Davis as MP for TTT. I haven’t looked at the numbers re party vote, but will do so when I get the chance.

                  I understand the principles at stake, I’m arguing the pragmatics.

    • Stephen Doyle 11.2

      Now that I agree with.
      If a deal can be struck that Mana support the LP, then putting Kelvin high enough on the list to guarantee a seat, and letting Hone win TTT, a win for progressives all round.

  12. Jenny 12

    In an all out contest between Davis and Harawira what would be their points of difference?

    Last time there were lots of attacks on around the Mana/Dotcom link up.

    With that out of the way. What are the issues that divide them?

  13. Alan 13

    Hone and Winston propping up Labour and the Greens – yea that is going to work

    • Jenny 13.1

      It might work in the North.

      Harawira, Davis, and Peters all agree on one thing. That the North has been neglected and not properly served by Wellington. Time for them to put their collective foot down to reverse this neglect?

      • Alan 13.1.1

        Hone and Winston are polar opposites and despise each others politics, NZF + Labour + Greens is difficult enough, adding Hone to the equation makes it very difficult.

        • marty mars

          I think you’d be surprised by the truth there Alan – they actually are more alike than unalike imo

        • Jenny

          Sez you.

          Peters and Harawira both agree on the unique threat that climate change poses to Northland.

          Grim climate-change outlook


          “Rather than panic about what is in this report, we should use the science we have and set about looking for sound solutions,” Northland MP Winston Peters said.

          “For those who want to deny climate change, well, the effects are already there now.”

          The only outlier is Kelvin Davis, who is beholden the Labour Party’s line on climate change, which is much the same as National’s.

  14. mauī 14

    So no chance of a Labour/Greens style arrangement then, which presumably means he won’t be winning Te Tai Tokerau back and Mana redux is probably dead in the water already.

    Can you explain the rationale behind TTT being unwinnable for Mana? Harawira beat Davis by 1,100 votes in 2011, Davis beat Harawira by 700 votes in 2014. What makes you say it can’t flip around again and Harawira makes it in for 2017?

    • I’d say Hone has his work cut out for him. He won the seat as part of the maori party and had their organisation, and popular support behind him. Then he won it in a by-election under the mana banner. Then lost it, despite having Dotcom’s millions behind him.

      Having to win it back against a popular and effective local MP is a big ask. I don’t see that he has the kind of organisation behind him now to make it work, nor has he got the kind of issues that might galvanise the electorate. Or to put the latter in another way, the issues that are important in the electorate can probably be better addressed by Kelvin Davis as part of the Labour/Greens government.

      It’s just going to be really tough for him to get cut through.

    • Colonial Viper 14.2

      Labour Loyalists believe parties like MANA are nothing more than upstart pretenders. The fact that having Hone and Laila in Parliament would have made Labour look pretty right wing in comparison wouldn’t have helped either.

      • mauī 14.2.1

        Hone and Laila in Parliament would be a dream come true, hopefully soon.

      • gsays 14.2.2

        Huh, it might bring out the ‘Bennett’ in them!

      • leftie 14.2.3

        You are the only person I have ever heard say that about Mana Colonial Viper. I don’t think that’s the case at all, and I don’t think you can tar all Labour supporters with that brush.

      • Chooky 14.2.4

        +100 CV…Mana is the real traditional Left Labour Party…I would love to see Hone Harawira , Annette Sykes and Laila Harre in Parliament…also John Minto

  15. Peter Swift 15

    Labour and the Greens need to come out early doors and say they won’t ever deal and work with mana,. There is nothing in a union with them except lost votes and voter disdain.
    To the vast majority of NZ, for whatever reasons, Hone is toxic. Having him in the political mix is an oxygen sucking recurring nightmare for parties wanting to engage the left of centre middle ground. He’s so unlike able in NZ, even his own constituency rejected him last election night, leaving him to boo hoo on the tele.

    If the left are serious about winning in 2017 then we have to act on this asap.

    • gsays 15.1

      Hi peter, I have trouble reconciling ‘us on the left’ and excluding harawira.

      Perhaps ‘us in the centre’ is more accurate.

      • Peter Swift 15.1.1

        Judging by some of the comments in this topic, I’m not surprised.

        Us left of centre and not the sub 1% loony left is more specific.

        • Hanswurst

          Hone is toxic. Having him in the political mix is an oxygen sucking recurring nightmare for parties wanting to engage the left of centre middle ground.

          Sounding a more than a bit loony yourself, tbh.

          • Peter Swift

            Don’t trust my word for it, just look at the mana poll numbers.
            Says it all much clearer than you could ever try to spin otherwise, -1%er.

            • Hanswurst

              Mana alone polled over 1% at the previous election. Considering the number of Labour and Green posters on here who profess a degree of sympathy with Mana, it looks as though your weak little “1%” rantings are just loony drivel.

              • Peter Swift

                Cool story, bro, but despite your wishful thinking, mana are politically nothing, unless they are media mentioned in the same breath as Labour, in which case, because of Hone’s unpopularity, they become a toxic millstone necklace.
                At present they poll nothing. They aren’t even the biggest maori party.

                Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the message, but it’s written in the numbers.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Your fear is showing mate. If MANA truly are nothing, why are you wasting so much breath on them?

                  • Peter Swift

                    I’m saying labour and the greens need to back away from this mana shite or again be tarnished when it all hits the media fan.

                    Your projection though is as obvious as it is juvenile. Long con, you’re all ill thought out. Patience 😉
                    What you’re frightened of is another question I don’t even care about yet.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      It’s irrelevant what the Greens and Labour do. Mana need to get its strategy and its funding together.

                      As for fear – you are the one who is very clearly afraid of MANA good man, and I am asking you why.

                    • sure peter you aren’t scared lol – the greens and labour are on a different journey to Mana so your toxic this and tarnish that is all wasted – oh dear what a pity you were on such a roll

                    • Peter Swift

                      So if it’s irrelevant what labour and the greens do, or even a different journey as romantically put by the dreamer element, you’ll both see no issue with the major left parties coming out and saying to the public ‘no effing way will we let these flakes near our government’.
                      That’d be a win win for all concerned then.

                      And using language like fear and scared is a bit silly. It’s just misdirection and poor attempts at framing what is out of your control.
                      Clearly there’s a real, genuine, measurable effect on voters when mana are mentioned.
                      If you don’t see how voter toxic they are or are willing to admit what the rest of the country already knows, are you sure politics is the game for you? lol

                    • Colonial Viper

                      oh look here is Peter Swift arguing that MANA is politically irrelevant, somehow writing even more comments about MANA.

                    • I think your views are quaint peter I really effing do LOL

                      and I don’t think you understand the concept of framing //sadface

                      and this is commenting on politics which is not the same as politics – surely you understand THAT concept //smileyface

                    • Peter Swift

                      One can’t see. One won’t see.
                      What a pair of political visionaries you both are.

                      You each earn a belly laugh, but oddly enough, for differing reasons lol

                • Hanswurst

                  Curious, when my numbers have better foundations than yours, being anchored in a poll of the entire actively voting population. Which part of my thinking was actually “wishful”?

                  • Peter Swift

                    The wishful thinking is you imagining mana are anything more than a very minuscule 1% political party.
                    Because they are held in such high disregard and rejected by 99% of voters, half of them left wingers, I’m confident if you post past recent opinion polls we can see the lay of the land in the current numbers.

                    Like I wrote, they don’t even out poll the complicit maori party.
                    Some hope = No hope.

                    • Hanswurst

                      1. As I have repeated, and as you have not refuted, they polled above 1% at the most recent election.

                      2. Their getting into parliament is not dependent on their polling above 1%, another fact which had been referenced repeatedly, and which you have not refuted.

                      3. Nor is it contingent on any public association with Labour.

                      4. Labour’s best course of action in public would be to ignore Mana entirely, despite all of your squawking about “shite”, “fans” and toxicity.

    • weka 15.2

      “He’s so unlike able in NZ, even his own constituency rejected him last election night,”

      That’s not really true though is it. He lost his seat by only 700 ish votes, and most people attribute that to KDC being invovled. In the previous election he won by 1100 votes. Hardly a man hated by his electorate.

      As for the rest of NZ, why are disenfranchised Māori not allowed a voice in parliament? This is what MMP was designed for, to increase representation.

      btw, Labour and the Greens will be campaigning separately. No reason why Mana can’t too. Nor why a L/G govt can’t have C and S support from a range of parties after the election.

      • Peter Swift 15.2.1

        You’re being disingenuous by using ‘hated by his electorate’. I never said that at all, I wrote “rejected”. Shame on you for that deliberate mislead/lie. Is this the way you go about things? That doesn’t fill me with confidence re your integrity.

        As for why ‘disenfranchised Māori not allowed a voice in parliament’, again, poor form by you in trying to misdirect the debate. Another reason to doubt your credibility here. Of course, if they have the numbers then they are allowed to be represented, that’s democracy, but then the debate has been should labour and the greens assist and endorse mana to achieve this goal.
        My argument, backed by the figures above page, given mana and Hone’s toxic nature to voters says no, no and no.

        Mana should be removed from the political equation now, save the left suffer the consequences by association that will surely follow. Live and learn and all that.

        • weka

          Wanting to remove a party from being able to represent its people, looks like hate to me. You used the term ‘unlikeable’ which is just a sly way of saying you don’t like him. Maybe not hate, but other things about your comment suggest it’s closer to strong dislike.

          The argument isn’t whether Labour and the Greens should assist and endorse Mana, it’s about whether they or others on the left will actively work against them. Big difference, I’m surprise you misssed that seeing as how integrity in political debate is so important to you.

          • Peter Swift

            Nope, you said hatred and I didn’t. No excuse for continuing your underhand debating tactics in a follow up. An apology would have sufficed. So still shame on you.

            If you wish to frame the argument as should labour and greens work against mana, then despite you trying to engender a win out nothing with the dreary argument reverse, yes, they should actively campaign to minimise the damage mana will do to the left attempt to win the election.

            Distancing themselves right now will put it front and centre of voters minds and negate the media attacks that will follow and the predicted government attacks.
            I hope the labour leadership are strong on this one.

            • Hanswurst

              Distancing themselves right now will put it front and centre of voters minds and negate the media attacks that will follow and the predicted government attacks.

              No, if they even mention the Mana movement of their own accord, they will associate themselves with it. Labour’s being seen to be associated with the Mana movement in an election campaign is politically risky. Mana MPs in parliament, on the other hand, would damage National’s prospects and shore up Labour’s position in the next parliament, since they would increase the share of seats on the Left.

              • Peter Swift

                Mana aren’t getting mps. lol

                Putting space between the electable left and extremist fringes can only increase the possibility of winning an election.
                Feel free to argue contrary, but you’ll be wasting your time.

                • Hanswurst

                  Actually, what I have been arguing is that Labour’s taking a torch to Mana would not put space between them in the public eye. What it would do is make it easy for the media and the parliamentary Right to sell a narrative of the Left being made up of natural allies who can do nothing but fight amongst themselves. Your emotions are not allowing you to look at this rationally.

                • Chris

                  Labour adopting a centrist position rooted in neo-liberalism doesn’t make Mana an extremist fringe-dwelling cot-case of a party even if the media like to portray it as that. Mana’s policies are almost indistinguishable from what Labour used to stand for before they lost their way.

    • leftie 15.3

      What a load of rubbish Peter Swift.

      • Peter Swift 15.3.1

        I trust the insight and impartiality of this contributor’s opinion more than I do yours.

        Mana 2.0

        “As a bona fide Leftie (rather than Centre-Leftie), I’d suggest that Labour and the Greens are at far greater risk of losing the next Election if voters come to believe that any putative Labour-led Govt would be in any way reliant on Harawira and Mana to govern.

        Let’s be crystal clear here – both the Mana Party and the Internet Party were absolutely toxic to voters at the last Election. Even the faintest whiff among the New Zealand Electorate that Harawira might play a crucial role in allowing a Labour-led Govt to be formed will scare the bejesus out of a whole swathe of potential swing voters.”

        • leftie

          It was your over the top emotive personal abuse that is a load of rubbish Peter Swift. Hone himself is not toxic and unlikable, it was the political teaming up with Dotcom at the last election that was.

          • Peter Swift

            Don’t be offended, but I’ve already established your opinion, bereft of factuality, is of little value to me.
            Just as it has been established the toxicity of mana and it’s leader to NZ voters. Even the vast majority on the left don’t want him.
            It’s something you’ll just have to accept or wilfully ignore.

            • Colonial Viper

              Just as it has been established the toxicity of mana and it’s leader to NZ voters.

              That’s a stupid comment mate. Hone needs a bit of funding and some decent political strategy. Mana should be a 5% party, easily.

              • Peter Swift

                Besides the fact mana and Hone are clearly toxic to NZ voters and are -1% party, do show otherwise, if you have links and the numbers, given how close they’ve got to 5% in the past, with the funding they had last time out, what’s so stupid about the comment?.

                They are what they are, a one person party of personality cult, shunned by 99% of voters including the vast majority of left wingers.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Besides the fact mana and Hone are clearly toxic to NZ voters

                  Is there something wrong with your brain that you need to repeat stupid, irrelevant comments?

                  You keep claiming that MANA is a big fat zero on the radar…yet here you are making dozens of comments on MANA.

                  As I said, all Harawira needs to do is get some decent strategy and some decent money together, and MANA will be back on its feet in in no time.

                  One of the things he needs to do is to put a mile of distance between himself and the Greens and with Labour. New policies, new strategies and new priorities.

                • North

                  Who the fuck are you anyway Peter Swift ? Never seen you around……the mention of Hone has you all fucked up seemingly. What’s going on ? You know nothing…….except maybe as a member of that racist bloc that feels wickedly threatened by a straight talker like Hone. Or some jealous Tory voting Maori kupapa thinks he’s aristocracy. Fuck off !

                  • Peter Swift

                    Looks like pointless abuse to me, but if that’s all you got, that’s all you’ve got. No worries.

                    I can sense the pulsating forehead veins. Enjoy the aneurysm. lol

                    • North

                      Ha ha ha. You don’t answer, sophist.

                    • Peter Swift

                      I’m happy enough telling it like it is in the real world. If you can only bust angry hard man extremist blood vessels, so be it.

                      Enjoy the ride or die frying. Up to you.

                    • leftie

                      Just like your abuse, your comments are pointless Peter Swift.

                  • Chooky

                    +100 North…calling Harawira “toxic” and so unpopular he was run out of Auckland was something the right wing nacts and their scabby bought racist journalists did last Election …it amounted to racism against Maori and bullying imo

                    showed where jonkey nact really is….shit scared of Hone Harawira, Mana and the REAL Left…(not their ape pseudo ‘Left’ poodles)

                    • North

                      Yeah……and frankly I still haven’t got over the foulness of Kelvin Davis when he decided it was cool to bad mouth Hone in the nastiest honky way…….to achieve one Maori MP in The North (him – oh what victory for Maori) and defeat the prospect of two Maori MPs in The North.

                    • yep North – something not quite right there…

                    • Richardrawshark

                      Left eh? So you guys who bandy on about being left, your fkn Boi’s

                      You wouldn’t know left if it bashed you over with a big stick.

                      I’m Albanian, I know left, it’s called communism, and when 20 of your family got taken outside and shot in the head for owning a farm, you kind of get what left is, Under Enver Hoxha we know left we lived under the poster child for the left, we were the example of what left should be.

                      People who praise left make me so angry, as angry as I get about the far right, same thing different extreme.

                      The left here is centre, at best.

                      If any of you at all glorify the left, I have a video here of what happens under the left, produced by an Albanian TV documentary about what happened to all the engineers and educated people of Albania about how my Family was decimated and many others when the communists took over.

                      How I have an uncle with no eyes, how 3 others were, sentenced to long imprisonments under communist conditions, how they were forbid to receive any help from ANYONE, If you have the guts to see the truth.

                      So when you glorify scum who have no real idea of what left is, your degrade yourselves and look thick and gullible as fucvk

            • leftie

              Your valueless opinions are bereft of factuality Peter Swift, you are still talking a load of rubbish. You don’t have a clue.

            • reason

              No other politician that I am aware of has faced the sustained smearing, biased reporting and general character assassination that our racist media has run against Hone for decades ……………

              A prime example would be when Nelson Mandela died ….. Our media pushed the ( national ) lines that Hone was a bludger who did not deserve to go to South Africa …

              Yet Hone was invited to the private family service by the Mandela family ….

              Key meanwhile selected grubby old pro tour nats to accompany him to the large stadium sized official event ……….. which degenerated into a surreal circus summed up beautifully by the fraudulent guy hired to do the official sign language. …..

              The Nationals ‘Dirty Politics’ operation hated Hone even more than they hate health professionals threatening booze company s profits ….

              Simon Lusk boasts about buying votes in Hones electorate when Labour seemed to collaborate with the Nats in a combined effort against him.

              That boast is contained in this strange and warped story http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/201779410/dirty-politics-players-back-in-the-frame

              Check out the photo of Lusk ‘hunting’ a deer in a paddock ….. he looks very bromosexual in a soft city boy way while demonstrating with his queer little setup that he shoots like cameron slater boxes… no skill and lacks the basics .

              ‘Hunting’ Deer in paddocks is also bullshit and makes me think their little trips to “the bush” are an excuse for broken-back bonding ……….. I suspect They really are rat-fuckers and it’s their little inside joke ……… “paddock hunting ratty ?’ …..” Love to go bang bang ratty :0″

              Hone is a real man who believes in things like feeding hungry children at schools and not having the poor live in grinding poverty.

              I’ll take his side any day …. and point out its the greedy horrible people presently in charge who are fucking our country and who actively fight against fairness in society….

              Hone may be anti-drugs ……. but he would never stoop so low or be so evil as to create a bogus ‘contamination’ crisis to evict poor people onto the street …

              I could go on but will just finish by saying mike sabin, john key & judith collins … what do those three have in common?.

              • leftie

                No reason to believe the words of a extremist right wing black ops nut job that is not credible. His job involved smear campaigns against Labour. He was doing the job John key paid him to do. Amazing after everything we have learnt about dirty politics, people are still being sucked in.

  16. gsays 16

    Best news in ages.

    Now if only the other parties can share their toys an play nicely, we may be able to wrestle control of the sandpit back off the bullies.

    A good challenge for those who have stated they want to change the govt.

    • leftie 16.1

      Depends if Hone wants to play though, doesn’t it?

      • gsays 16.1.1

        Well as has been suggested by some above, an understanding where labour campaign for the party vote and hone/mana go for the candidate vote(can’t think of the correct term).

        Win win. TTT gets 2 MPs and the left gets another voice in Parliament .

        There is a difference between working with labour and accepting an accommodation.

        • Colonial Viper

          You gotta be kidding. Labour crushed Harawira deliberately, and will be seeking to ensure that Mana never get off the ground again. Having Hone and Laila, both true Lefties, in Parliament simply makes Labour look as centrist and compromising as they actually are.

          • gsays

            How will they look with sue Bradford &

          • North

            What you say is absolutely true CV. I remember it so well. How they rejoiced when The North ended up with one Maori MP rather than the two The North might have had. How gloatingly proud they were of their self inflicted failure. They won. Pyrrhically. Choice. One instead of two. Oh well. At least they kept it ‘pure’ ???

            Hone’s got balls. For the downtrodden and the ‘underclass’……..as fashioned by the ‘pure’. Davis doesn’t. Relatively speaking.

            • marty mars

              yep labour, gnats NZF all sat around giving each other the odd tug of congratulations – horrible sight really showing the true nature of nz politics – we won’t forget.

              • Chris

                And it probably cost them the election. Labour and Mana could’ve cooperated in Waiariki which could’ve ousted the Maori party completely taking support from Key; and in Te Tai Tokerau to give Hone the seat plus at least one more. It was in fact that close.

            • leftie

              Hone shouldn’t have teamed up with Dotcom. That’s what cost him his seat, and he knows it. I have no doubt he would have retained his seat if he had of stood independently. Ask yourself why Sue Bradford quit the Mana party back in 2014?

              • Hanswurst

                Yup. I could hardly believe my eyes when I read that Man’s had teamed up with Dotcom. Ah well, Harawira is one of countless politicians whose judgment I would hesitate to trust, but also one of the few politicians whose genuineness in policy I would trust without hesitation.

          • Chooky

            +100 CV and North…on the button yet again…the Labour Party blew Hone and Mana out of the water last Election…he would be crazy to seek an alliance with them at this stage

            Mana is the true working class Party of New Zealand…and the true Left Labour Party

            • leftie

              Hone and Mana blew themselves out of the water last Election by teaming up with Dotcom. It wouldnt have made a difference what Labour or Winston Peter’s said.

          • leftie

            Rubbish Colonial Viper, Hone did it to himself. He shouldn’t have teamed up with Dotcom.

            • Stuart Munro

              Don’t agree – Dotcom was a strategic move, knobbled by dirty MSM actions just like Cunliffe. Nothing objectionable about him except that he challenged the disgusting tyrant Key. He was right to do so.

              • leftie

                Sure he was right to do so, sure the National party msm are dirty bastards, but the fact remains, that Dotcom was, and still is, politically toxic, no opposition party could support Mana with Dotcom being part of it, and people need to realize that Maori are a lot more conservative than they realize, Hone lost credibility in their eyes when he teamed up with Dotcom.

        • leftie

          What is the difference with working with Labour and accepting an accommodation gsays? Don’t both parties have to work together for that?

  17. Nelson Muntz 17

    Hone and Kimmie up a tree …

    Oh wait. That was the last election.

  18. b waghorn 18

    So hes ditched every one on his side and labours not good enough !
    I see a some wasted vote at the next election as the only outcome.

    • weka 18.1

      I know that’s how trp is presenting it, but it’s more likely that they’re to want to get themselves established as a party again before they start forming those relationships. And it’s MMP, which many seem to be forgetting, so Mana can sit outside of government and offer support on C and S, or on specific legislation. Which is not a bad strategy for a very small party trying to come back.

      HH’s manner comes across as insulting to the other Māori MPs, which strikes me as more of a problem than saying he’s not into Little.

  19. I met Hone Harawira kanohi ki te kanohi and liked him very much. He was warm, genuine and quite different from his then-co Maori Party associates. I rate him highly.

    • North 19.1

      I endorse your comments RG. Based on many meetings. Going right back Hone has always had balls for principle. No ? Remember Patu. Hone’s fallen on the right side of history. Undeniable.

      • Das 19.1.1

        Hone pointing out the difficult, challenging issues that afflict the poor and disengaged might turn out to create a bit of Sanders effect and progressive profile for himself that some Labour stalwarts would prefer to do without and not deal with.

  20. Incognito 20

    I was quite impressed with the open letter from Hone Harawira to John Key in the wake of Nelson Mandela’s death: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11174681

    Hone Harawira recently lost another one of his living role models: Muhammad Ali.

    Such experiences shape any man and through his loss he’ll grow and become wise.

    Toxic or not, right now I’d view Hone Harawira as one of the ‘good guys’.

  21. Tiger Mountain 21

    a rather opportunist article to put it mildly, given “someone” in the NZ Labour Party ordered significant resources be put into the West Auckland end of Te Tai Tokerau in 2014, resources a number of other LECs did not get according to my sources, to try and keep Internet Mana out of parliament

    Hone did well considering all the distractions, and his car crash, Mana candidates actually saw precious little of the KDC cash, but I do not want to make excuses, anyone who saw a IMP roadshow would likely have grasped the potential, but they bungled the execution–FJK!!

    Hone does not need to make a comeback fer crissakes, he has been around politically for 40 years, but the issues Mana raised have just got worse–housing, poverty, etc. so their politics are needed, too many here are hung up on the bourgeois parliament as being the summation of all politics

    there are various ways that Hone and or Mana could be back in parliament in 2017 so it is understandable a Labour Party stalwart has knifed Hone within hours, an unholy unity of Nats, ACT, Winston, Hairdo, Labour, Greens and Conservatives had to call in all favours last time to keep Hone and Laila out

    • marty mars 21.1

      yep TM you are onto it – this Mana 2.0 is such a load of shit designed for not good purposes – Mana has never gone away, Hone has never gone away. Luckily Mana Movement supporters don’t care about the barbs and arrows from labour/gnats/NZF/and the rest – we all just get on with the job!!!

  22. Rae 22

    If there is a place in parliament for ACT (although the party seems to have strayed from its original libertarian views into way more conservative territory) then there is a place for Hone Harawira. I found him to be eloquent and pretty genuine when he was in parliament, no matter whether I did or didn’t agree with him 100% of the time, he was their with belief, and isn’t that what matters.

  23. Xanthe 23

    It is my belief that Lab/Grn lost the election in 2014 simply because they put seeing off InternetMana at a higher priority than winning the election. Had they worked with InternetMana they would be in government now !

    • Tiger Mountain 23.1

      yes, on a numbers basis there would likely have been two Internet Mana MPs at least and David Cunliffe as PM

      • Chooky 23.1.1

        +100…the Left coalition opposition did not co-operate …instead they competed as if it was a ‘first past the post’ election and let in jonkey nact again!

        Labour by standing Kelvin Davis in TTT was particularly inept and reprehensible

        Lusk dirty tricks did not help either


        …”Simon Lusk also claimed on Story he had been instrumental in unseating Mana Party co-leader Hone Harawira in the last election. Unnamed “businessmen” had paid thousands for that, he said. And in conversation with his co-host last Monday, Duncan Garner said money had been paid to get Maori electors to vote in Te Tai Tokerau.

        Was political operative Simon Lusk really paying people on behalf of clients to influence an election? Disappointingly, no more was said about this claim.The following day, Duncan Garner posted a statement from Simon Lusk on the websites of TV3’s Story and Radio Live. In it, Simon Lusk said:

        Iwi now have extensive databases of members who they can easily mobilise. Assembling a team of 50 or 100 iwi members to get out the vote is straightforward, legal and effective if it is possible to raise some koha.
        He added that “if you’re not paying for votes or offering anything in exchange for a vote, or treating,” it is not against the law. But that statement didn’t answer key questions: How much was paid? By whom? And for what purpose?…”

        (those who blame Dotcom are falsely trying to mislead and pointing at a scapegoat, trying to distract from the real truth of the dirty politics and racism involved in getting of Harawira and Mana/Internet)

        • marty mars

          Colluded is my call

          • Tiger Moutain

            there did appear to be a united response “all hands to the pump” from the PM, ACT, Winston, ex Lab MP Dover Samuels, Conservatives, Hairdo, Māori Party, on down to the Greens (officially anyway re Greens) to scare the horses about Internet Mana

            now that does not excuse IMP for their various blunders like inexplicably changing their plain jane billboards to overly smartarse ones or putting too many resources into the roadshows in unwinable places, but really it was stacks on the mill when the media blitz is figured in

            I know from insiders that some Auckland Labour LECs barely had a box of pens or adequate staff let alone the resources Kelvin got particularly in West Auckland, in some ways it does no good to re raise all this, but it may be necessary to clear the decks to move forward, be good to see Lusk outed too

            Mana does not have to play nice with Labour just yet, but a MoU with the Māori Party would be a good start to Mana’s 2017 campaign, and Hone has been seeking that type of rapprochement for a long time

            • marty mars

              Yep I’m happy to let it go, what’s done is done. I’d also like to see the MP and Mana form an agreement. Be good for all concerned.

            • leftie

              Why is it so hard for people to believe that Maori didn’t like Hone teaming up with Dotcom? It wouldn’t have made a difference what anyone said. Hone lost all credibility when he showed he needed a white man to win, that’s what I was told, and worse still, that white man happened to be a rich immigrant that the National government was persecuting and at war with.

              • I have NEVER heard the need a white man to win line – where did you hear it?

              • Bill

                For what it’s worth leftie, my reservations about Mana revolved around the fact they’d teamed up with the old authoritarians of the left – Socialist Aotearoa or whatever the rag tag remnants of various Trot, Stalinist and whatever orgs were calling themselves.

                When Mana dropped them in favour of the Internet Party it, to my mind, was a hugely progressive move.

                And I really do wish that people would remember that all major outlets were hell-bent on demonising Dotcom and that (for example) when the likes of Andrew Little says he heard nothing but negative comments on the doorsteps, that much of that would have been due to an unchallenged narrative that had been running for weeks on end.

                To my mind, in the interests of killing bigotry dead and showing it was bigger than the damned circus of parliament , Labour should, minimally, have been front footing condemnation of all that shite instead of allowing it to shape their options.

                • leftie

                  How? when Labour was being crucified by the media as well.

                • Xanthe

                  Agree. Labour/grn followed the national and media agenda and never got ahead of the curve. Since they were getting hung out to dry either way they needed to front foot an ethical stance and distance themselves from the attack frenzy

              • Karen

                Several Māori I know in the TTT electorate expressed disappointment in Hone for signing up with Kim Dotcom because Kim was an extremely rich person who had not shown any signs of sharing the values of Mana and they felt that Hone had sold out. I never heard anyone say it was because he was white, but I am Pākehā so maybe that’s why they didn’t say it to me!

                I believe that if Hone had not signed up with Kim Dotcom he would have kept that seat in 2014, and Mana may also have had enough votes to get Annette into parliament. Hone thought the money would help them get more than 2 seats but he didn’t realise the extent to which Dotcom wanted to be involved in the campaign.

                IMO Labour and the Green would also have received a greater share of the vote, as the dislike of Kim Dotcom was widespread (as Swordfish has shown). The Nats exploited this to maximum effect.

        • leftie

          Chooky. No reason to believe the words of a extremist right wing black ops nut job that is not credible. His job involved smear campaigns against Labour. He was doing the job John key paid him to do. Amazing after everything we have learnt about dirty politics, people are still being sucked in.

  24. Xanthe 24

    There is a large constituency that dont vote, iM had the potential to bring in some part of this non vote.
    Seeing National, Labour, Hairdo, Green, n Media all cooperating in ramming the message that their vote would be wasted (again!) was just about the most counterproductive thing they could have done . Not just for LabGrn but for the country and democracy itself.
    Fortunately both Mana and IP are still with us and presumably wiser (well hopefully because they made plenty of borkups without any help from anyone as well) 2017 is going to be interestimg!

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