Mana Party and Maori Party to commence discussions

48 comments on “Mana Party and Maori Party to commence discussions ”

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1. just saying 1

   25 October 2013 at 6:27 pm

   Is this evidence of a further crack in the Maori Party National Party relationship?

   Seriously Mickey, that’s the most interesting aspect of this for you?
   • weka 1.1

     25 October 2013 at 6:33 pm

     Why not js?

     For me it’s neck and neck with how Mana and the MP would work together, that should be interesting. Beyond that, Maori politics generally aren’t well understood outside of Maoridom… I will watch with interest.
   • mickysavage 1.2

     25 October 2013 at 6:44 pm

     JS

     The one think I can say with certainty is that this is bad news for National.

     To be frank I am not so sure that it is good news for Labour.

     It decreases Labour’s chances of winning more Maori Electorates, doesn’t hurt the party vote prospects but at the same time decreases the chances that MP of whatever sort will support National next time.

     It could be a strategic move by the two parties to preserve their influence with the prospect of a Labour Green government looking more likely.

     But I can’t see a major downside for Labour and plenty for National.
     • Te Reo Putake 1.2.1

       25 October 2013 at 7:02 pm

       Indeed, MS. It’s bad news for the Nats because the best they can reasonably hope from a Mana/MP alliance is that they might not vote against the right (ie abstain from voting confidence and supply for either bloc). That could leave both sides forced to look at forming a minority Government and building majorities issue by issue.

       However, whenever I’ve done the electorate calculator in recent months, the MP have been irrelevant, even when I’ve assumed they’d still have 3 seats. The one caveat to that is the slim possibility that we have two kingmakers post election; NZF and M/MP. But that would require Lab/Greens to be a few points worse than the current polling suggests they’ll achieve.
2. ghostwhowalksnz 2

   25 October 2013 at 6:41 pm

   So the terminally ill patient has accepted a visit by a priest ?
3. Vagabundo 3

   25 October 2013 at 6:44 pm

   Isn’t the coalition deal with the government Pita Sharples’ thing and a result of Tariana Turia’s resentment towards Labour more than anything else?
   • Tat Loo 3.1

     25 October 2013 at 6:54 pm

     That and the influence of the highly moneyed ‘Brown Table’.
4. bad12 4

   25 October 2013 at 7:10 pm

   i actually pick the original offer from the Mana Party to the Maori Party to be the offer of an electoral life-line and Naida’s neutral reply to be a polite ‘no thanks’ from the Captain about to go down on the Maori Party electoral waka in November 2014,

   Maori as a whole would have far better representation from a united Mana-Maori Party as i believe that within such unity there would be a very good chance of such a unified Maori political face not only retaining the current 4 seats held by both parties but a good chance that a Mana-Maori combined political machine would go close to challenging Labour in at least the Ikaroa-Rawhiti electorate,

   i view the current stand-off as a pity not only for Maori but in a general sense for the numbers in the Parliament who would represent the Maori left,(by far the largest demographic of Maori voters),and also add greatly to the life-span of future Governments of the left,

   Should the larger parties of the left be assured of at least support on ‘confidence and supply’ from those parties who do hold Maori electoral seats there is strategic value in especially the Labour Party actively supporting smaller left wing Maori parties in holding these electoral seats while campaigning solidly for the Party Vote within such electorates,

   Should a block of leftist Maori holding 5 of the Maori seats in the Parliament become established while a savvy demographic of Maori voters are encouraged by ALL parties involved to strategically split their votes giving their electorate vote to Mana and their party Vote to Labour, in a wider electoral sense of Labour being in the high 30’s in terms of Party Votes this will in essence continually give the ‘left’ 5 extra seats in the Parliament,

   Obviously many who operate in the political world recognize such a situation would not only benefit Maori but benefit the wider society by producing more stable longer living leftist Governments but much of politcs still seems to be viewed through the lens of FPP politics with the attempt to transfer FPP politics directly onto the new reality of MMP,

   In the not to distant future, i would at least hope, MMP politics will develop and evolve within New Zealand where a major Party like Labour moves it’s thinking into what i would term total MMP mode…
   • Tat Loo 4.1

     25 October 2013 at 7:32 pm

     Not sure how the MP are going to expunge their semi- Tory bent, however. And why should many of their original supporters go back to them.
     • ak 4.1.1

       25 October 2013 at 8:03 pm

       Because they were promised the earth, did their best, and saved us all from the terrors of ACT.

       And because if even Labour has at last learned forgiveness and how to avoid induced infighting, why not every oppressed people?

       It’s in the air, Tat, breathe deep and live. Kotahitanga. Dare to dream, for those to follow.
     • bad12 4.1.2

       25 October 2013 at 8:11 pm

       i think Tat Loo, that had the Maori Party taken up the offer of Mana to present a united Mana-Maori Party to the electorate the voters would fully understand the message,

       As things now stand i cannot see the Maori Party being represented in the next Parliament at all, with perhaps a stroke of luck giving them 1 seat only,

       A united Mana-Maori Party i believe would have at least 3 seats in the next Parliament and a 50/50 chance of securing another 3 of the Maori electorate seats,

       Under MMP i fail to see the importance Labour places upon securing these electoral seats as i see when viewing MMP politics far more value in Labour supporting any left leaning Maori party to take those electorate seats while that Maori Party having gained Labour support with the electorate seat gives Labour full and open support to gain the maximum Party Vote from within the Maori electorates,

       In effect, MMP has the facility to empower the left with a two for one vote in all those Maori electorates which as yet has not been fully realized? or exploited by the parties of the left…
       • ak 4.1.2.1

         25 October 2013 at 8:37 pm

         Well said bad, very good. The war has been won in the bedroom, high time for Labour to take that seminal lesson outside and follow fast. Orewa 1/Brash 04 was a dead-cat bounce: and Slippery’s felicitous need for ACT insurance has ensured it will never raise its filthy fangs again.

         Gate-crash that hui Dave. It’s Labour’s weekend, make it a decade – or century.
       • Tat Loo 4.1.2.2

         26 October 2013 at 7:42 am

         If I read your comment correctly, bad12, you are saying that letting Mana/Mp win those Maori seats would gift the Left additional votes in Parliament that it would otherwise not have, which I think is accurate.

         However, the internal politics in Labour will make it extremely difficult for such a move to be contemplated. One major question would be: why should Labour step aside to make way for Maori Party candidates, when the Maori Party has been backing a Tory Government against their own people for two terms.
         • poem 4.1.2.2.1

           26 October 2013 at 2:04 pm

           Totally agree with that Tat Loo and like Bad12 as it stands right now, I cannot see the Maori Party being returned to parliament at the next election. And the general feeling I get from reading commentary from other sites, I would not be the only one to say, that the Maori Party are finished.
       • Ad 4.1.2.3

         26 October 2013 at 8:16 am

         Not sure I see it same. Discussion will come down to kupapa vs Kingite.

         My result bet: Maori Party 1, Mana 1, Labour coalition avoids them both.
     • Tiger Mountain 4.1.3

       26 October 2013 at 2:07 pm

       Not sure a about semi–Tory bent Tat, I would say turbo boost Tory bent with cloaking device turned on. Mana needs the remaining Māori Party voters not the leadership let alone the Members of Parliament, so it will be interesting to see what Hone has.
   • RedBaronCV 4.2

     25 October 2013 at 8:26 pm

     Since the next election is going to be won or lost by Maori TV and on the Maraes of the country this has to be positive for the left. I always find it somewhat entertaining that when people go on about MMP being too complex thay completely overlook the fact that one of the more skilled groups at exploiting it vote in the Maori seats, ostensibly a lower socio-economic group. Creating an overhang here would benefit the left.

     Anyway I can see this being productive. For all that it may not have had great outcomes, I don’t see excessive criticism being directed at the Maori Party (Pita and Turiana) for having a go at being inside the tent not shut out even if the outcomes were rubbish. Likewise Mana stands to gain, as there are a lot who aren’t too keen on the Harawira’s and would see wider maoridom as exerting some influnce over him.

     Also, Mana has a vested interest and probably some ability to get the vote out in the Maori seats and the numbers are there.
5. vto 5

   25 October 2013 at 8:09 pm

   Will they advocate to govern over others?
   • weka 5.1

     25 October 2013 at 8:14 pm

     I’d encourage you to say what you really mean vto, so we don’t have another of those round and round conversations.
     • vto 5.1.1

       25 October 2013 at 8:28 pm

       I try to keep sentences short and simple so they can be understood. Like the one above.
       • bad12 5.1.1.1

         25 October 2013 at 8:30 pm

         i’m with Weka on this one, care to educate us???
       • weka 5.1.1.2

         25 October 2013 at 9:13 pm

         “Will they advocate to govern over others?”

         “I try to keep sentences short and simple so they can be understood. Like the one above.”

         Well you’ve failed in this instance vto. Who are ‘they’? Who are ‘others’? What is being governed? Who is doing the governing? Why? What is the context? etc.
6. BM 6

   25 October 2013 at 8:28 pm

   National to get an out right majority in 2014.
   You heard it here first.
   • bad12 6.1

     25 October 2013 at 8:32 pm

     Been drinking again BM, BM to snuff it in five years with alcohol inflicted liver damage,

     You heard it here first…
   • QoT 6.2

     25 October 2013 at 9:34 pm

     First? Did you miss the traditional media trotting out that line every time a poll’s been published with National in the high 40s over the past five years?
   • jaymam 6.3

     26 October 2013 at 1:57 pm

     iPredict says not:
     There will be a Labour Prime Minister after the 2014 General Election: 53.0%
     There will be a National Prime Minister after the 2014 General Election: 47.3%
   • poem 6.4

     26 October 2013 at 2:47 pm

     Like most nats you’ve been living on planet key way too long BM , and like the national party you support, you are way out of touch with reality.
     • Rhinocrates 6.4.1

       27 October 2013 at 2:28 pm

       No toilets there, remember, so they’re full of shit.
7. red blooded 7

   25 October 2013 at 8:58 pm

   There’s certainly a role for M/MP in a left leaning government, just as there is for a strong Green voice. Each prioritises an element of a Left set of concerns and policies. Instead of having (semi) anonymous factions and in-fighting within one Left(ish) party, the MMP environment allows people to set up a government with a balance of voices and viewpoints out in the open.

   As for your cryptic comment, vto, why the hell shouldn’t a group of Māori “advocate to rule over others”? Do you have a problem with people of Irish, Scottish, German, Polish…or any other descent forming part of our democratically elected government?
8. Adele 8

   25 October 2013 at 9:24 pm

   Kiaora

   I personally think that the Māori vote will swing back to Labour David Cunliffe has, I believe, an astute understanding of Māori aspirations under the Treaty and has a real sense of what ‘partnership’ means in this context.

   Too many are disillusioned with the Maori Party and too few are prepared to be led by Hone. Also, Mana is not necessarily perceived as being a party for Māori aspirations – its a broad whare.
9. marty mars 9

   25 October 2013 at 9:26 pm

   If they can reconcile then it will be a good day. The differences are big but the ties that bind are woven strongly so imo it could be done. The Mana policy platform would be the blueprint I would hope, but a bit more than hope really.

   We are heading to a very significant election – labour-greens working well, strong Cunliffe, Mana and MP working – and that’s just now! – imagine in a few months time of continued pressure on key and the gnats.
   • Adele 9.1

     26 October 2013 at 10:31 am

     Tēnā koe, e Marty

     Both Te Pāti Māori and Mana are issues based narratives. Should you find yourself in the inenviable position of being poor, unemployed and Māori – a likely Labour Government can fix at least two of those things. Te Pāti Māori and Mana cannot fix any one of those things.

     It’s not that Māori is broke. Far from it.

     While Te Pāti Māori and Mana coalesce around ridding the Māori world of significant social issues; these issues do not define the many peoples that comprise Te Ao Māori. We were Māori before we were disproportionately represented in all negative indicators bar anorexia nervosa.

     The Māori worldview has been prescribed a very narrow view of itself politically, economically and socially, and should Māori fall outside of these tightly held perspectives than they are obviously part of the brown elite, too white to be brown, or simply fucked up.

     A party that seeks to represent the Māori voice should stop with the deficit thinking and victim mentality. Many of our people act like conquered human beings because the rhetoric overwhelmingly says that “you are.”

     Nah, it’s a head fuck.
     • marty mars 9.1.1

       26 October 2013 at 11:56 am

       Tēnā koe Adele

       I’m not sure about the labour party fixing those things – I tend to see them as quite similar to the gnats although under cunliffe there does appear to be some red occuring and I’m happy about that.

       You are quite correct that even today there is often presented and assessed some mythological stereotype of what and who Māori are – not based on reality and not based on how Māori see themselves imo. Just another splinter of colonisation that is difficult to get at, let alone pull out. For me Mana are representing a part of society and that part is the most downtrodden, the most maligned and the most discarded and there are a disproportionate number of Māori in that group. I really see Mana providing a collaborative approach within the organisation and externally to the electorate – but the policies and approach of Mana are in opposition to the dominant mentality of this society and are therefore minimised and ridiculed – but it is always this way and it doesn’t really matter because the die is set and the society we have created is on its last legs – peak oil and climate change are very unforgiving change agents and they are here.

       In the world we are moving into any way of creating and strengthening communities is our best defense and protection and I think Mana are positively contributing to that not just because of who they are and what they believe but also in reinforcing increased self esteem in others, by speaking for those who need it the most.

       Yes and fuck being conquered – we’ll let them keep thinking that if it helps them sleep well at night 🙂
10. peterlepaysan 10

    25 October 2013 at 11:43 pm

    The Mana Party policy on GST could be problematic.
11. millsy 11

    26 October 2013 at 12:46 am

    Mana doesnt look like it is going to go anywhere. Doesnt help that Minto and Bradford are in there, while Hone is having trouble deciding whether he wants to be a Maori leader who is (supposedley) left wing or a left wing leader who happens to be Maori (he is better off being the former than the latter).

    The Maori Party signed up to an arrangement with a government that has screwed over their own people (especially those on low incomes), but I guess as long as tribal elites are being rewarded it is OK.

    Supporting policies to kick long term state house tenants out of their homes (yes, they should be regarded as homes, we need more housing security, not less), and onto the street, or into the world of hidden homelessness, a large amount of whom are Maori is the latest in a long litany of crapping on their people, starting with supporting the reduction of ACC entitlements, especially retricting hearing aids to 6% hearing loss, depriving Maori of support.

    And their support for charter schools and education privatisation. Disgusting. The MP would have been better off pushing measures to get more Maori into teaching, encourage Maori principals, and iwi involvement in school boards.
12. tc 12

    26 October 2013 at 7:33 am

    Talk is cheap, if I were mana I’d be treating it like viewing an auction collection.

    See what you want and go for it but the property it came from is condemed so leave it well alone.
13. BLiP 13

    26 October 2013 at 9:09 am

    Is this evidence of a further crack in the Maori Party National Party relationship?

    Nah. Its an attempt by the maori Party to stifle valid criticism of it by Mana.
14. Sable 14

    26 October 2013 at 11:11 am

    This bunch of sell out clowns go where the gravy train takes them. National as nothing to worry about as long as the free cash and other perks paid for by hard working New Zealander’s are available to these parasites…
15. Adele 15

    26 October 2013 at 11:53 am

    Kiaora Sable,

    This bunch of sell out clowns go where the gravy train takes them. National as nothing to worry about as long as the free cash and other perks paid for by hard working New Zealander’s are available to these parasites…

    I totally concur – capitalists are simply parasites in a suit.
    • Sable 15.1

      27 October 2013 at 8:56 am

      Not all parasites wear suits as this crew have demonstrated more than once.
      • Adele 15.1.1

        27 October 2013 at 9:07 am

        Kiaora, Sable

        What crew?
16. Tanz 16

    26 October 2013 at 7:46 pm

    Fran O’Sullivan is backing the new Conservative party to get in they do seem to be on a roll.
    Good news!
    • bad12 16.1

      27 October 2013 at 9:30 am

      On a toilet roll you mean, laughable news, with the National Party vote in such a fragile state any % of the Party Vote that the Conservatives can pick up is coming straight from National…
    • Tat Loo (CV) 16.2

      27 October 2013 at 10:00 am

      NZ needs a new Christian Conservative political party. Good luck to Colin Craig and John Key in their efforts to pull one off.
    • millsy 16.3

      28 October 2013 at 9:16 pm

      So Tanz,

      when do you reckon they will chop evolution from the school curriculum and ban sex. Of course banning people from having sex would mean the creation of a beauracacy to police it, going through the nations bedrooms to check wedding rings and marriage certificates. And then there is the Homosexual Law Reform (Repeal) Bill, that Colin Craig has ready to go, that will set up a final solution for homosexual. At least building the gas chambers for all those fags will create work for people.
17. Craig 17

    27 October 2013 at 11:45 am

    Now that’s an interesting question. Imagine this…Te Ureroa Flavell has won Wairaki, and Colin Craig has won the Hypothetical New North Shore Electorate, but stoved in National’s social liberal voter share by doing so. Accordingly, the NatCons need him as a coalition partner. The problem is, the Conservatives have a raving right Treaty policy and so…
18. Hari 18

    30 October 2013 at 12:08 pm

    Take heed of what Annette is saying.
19. TeKupu 19

    30 October 2013 at 4:25 pm

    Labs offer up Epsom to Winston! Let their Lab supporters see the value in that strategic move. Even on the worst day in hell will Epsom want to be run by the Christian right!

    Mana – Hone has always offered to bring the parties together. He can now honour that offer.

    MP – have always rejected, until this tepid response, the offer to join with Mana.

    Mana can hold talks so it can finally realise that the Maori Party is not capable of defining what constituents ‘working’ together on a case by case situation. Just look at their abysmal record to date with the Nats. Enough evidence for you? Mana walks away.

    MP – hold ONE seat with Flavell.

    Mana – hold ONE seat with Harawira.

    Labs – take the rest. OR Hone talks to Labs and gets them to do the Epsom scenario and delivers up at least ONE of their current seats to Mana. Food for thought.

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