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Meta Ardern

Written By: - Date published: 9:26 am, June 6th, 2025 - 54 comments
Categories: jacinda ardern - Tags: ,

Jacinda Ardern talked to The Rest Is Politics a few days ago about her book A Different Kind of Power, why she left politics, what New Zealand is (good and bad), and her Prime Ministership.

This is just over an hour of essential viewing, with the advantage of seeing Ardern through the outside eyes of a couple of Brit fanboys who are experienced political commentators. But it’s also through Ardern’s own presence and engagement. Her emotional, social and intellectual intelligence shines.

It’s fantastic to see Ardern happy and well. We get this in depth look at what a truly incredible person she is, and are reminded: we were so lucky. It’s perhaps easier to see more fully in hindsight. It’s not that she’s perfect, nor that she didn’t make mistakes, it’s that we’ve heard and talked plenty about that. This is about what’s good and what works and why. It’s not fluff, Stewart and Campbell ask serious questions. But this is where we get to have hope and delight in it.

The interview lays bare that Ardern is just really good at what she does and that what she does is what is needed at this point in history. This is beyond having been the PM of New Zealand, it’s something else entirely. I could easily have watched another hour. Enjoy.

Also available on the major podcast platforms, but it’s worth watching the video to see the interactions and responses of all three.

54 comments on “Meta Ardern ”

  1. Bruce 1
    6 June 2025 at 12:39 pm

    I agree was great interview, I only hope Labour watch it a few times and learn. I heard much of the recent Green policy in her words.

    Reply
  2. Reality 2
    6 June 2025 at 12:56 pm

    It was great to see and hear her in her interviews. Someone with heart and soul. What a comparison with the current PM who has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

    Reply
  3. Kay 3
    6 June 2025 at 2:12 pm

    I'm somewhat torn. I've seen a few interviews she's done as part of her book promotion, and her ability to empathise was always obvious right from the start. Jacinda proved to be a top-notch politician when it came to dealing with national crises, and any stripe of government that did it's job of first and foremost protecting it's citizens (covid) gets my credit, but not necessarily my vote.

    We'll never know if, these crisies didn't happen during her tenure, how/if this empathy would've manifested, and would she really have a different way of governing, or just more of the same? In between crisies, it was pretty obvious that Labour was all noise and little action, and had no desire to change things any faster than a glacial pace.

    From first-hand experience, the Labour government had the opportunity, and ability, to prevent unnecessary serious harm to a group of citizens, and they chose not to. Interactions and OIAs at that time showed the extent of their not giving a damn. Children were also being harmed, and the caring, empathetic Jacinda didn't want a bar of it. As PM, the buck stopped with her, not her completely incompetent Health Minister.

    Whenever I've seen her post-PM, I will always be extremely glad we had her as PM during a global pandemic. But it's cancelled out by everything else.

    Reply
    • weka 3.1
      6 June 2025 at 4:58 pm

      From first-hand experience, the Labour government had the opportunity, and ability, to prevent unnecessary serious harm to a group of citizens, and they chose not to. Interactions and OIAs at that time showed the extent of their not giving a damn. Children were also being harmed, and the caring, empathetic Jacinda didn't want a bar of it. As PM, the buck stopped with her, not her completely incompetent Health Minister.

      What's that in reference to?

      Reply
  4. Phillip ure 4
    6 June 2025 at 3:20 pm

    I was a jacinda fanboy back when she arrived..

    She was like a breath of fresh air ..

    ..promising to fix the issues that concerned me the most .

    ..institutionalised poverty… homelessness..and the climate grab-bag…

    I am no longer a jacinda fanboy…

    ..to my mind…on those issues that concern me..

    ..she talked the talk…and stumbled on the walk…

    ..and I see that as labours problem going forward…

    ..their having over promised..and under delivered…

    ..and I fear that hipkins is just promising even more incrementalism…

    ..that fear only underlined by his reaction to the eminently sensible green party budget as (from memory) as too much too fast..

    The thought of Ms Ardern having another go at the job doesn't alarm me…and she is still young..

    One would just hope she has learnt from the past ..

    ..and would embrace over-delivery as her new mantra…

    Reply
    • Bearded Git 4.1
      6 June 2025 at 3:53 pm

      Phillip-the COC have themselves spectacularly over-promised and under-delivered. Look at hospitals and roads for instance. Saying you are going to do something is not delivery.

      Labour was building a creditably high number of state houses in its last few years in power. The COC has stopped this dead, in the same way that John Key almost stopped state house builds in order to finance tax cuts.

      People forget that Light Rail in Auckland was vetoed by Peters.

      It was a constant refrain from the Right that Labour failed to deliver but this was never really the case. Twyford's dumb target (soon dropped) that KiwiBuild would build 100,000 affordable homes in 10 years has a lot to answer for.

      Surprised to see you buying into the Right's meme relating to Labour's so-called under-delivery.

      Reply
      • Phillip ure 4.1.1
        6 June 2025 at 4:57 pm

        @ bg .

        Don't really think I am buying into a right meme with my under delivery assessment..

        I was bitching about this from soon after Ardern came to power…

        ..and are you claiming…that with a stonking majority..she delivered..?

        Reply
    • gsays 4.2
      6 June 2025 at 4:46 pm

      I'm with you Phil.

      Not implementing the recommendations of WEAG was particularly disappointing. The veto of a Capital Gains Tax then any meaningful tax reform was a head scratcher, especially with Parkers work on tax occurring. Let's not talk about the comms around 3 Waters.

      As for buying into some "Right meme"… These were criticisms during their reign and before this fustercluck of a government.

      I was really enthusiastic in the early days, a dictum not to comment on National's gruesome woes meant the spotlight stayed where it needed to be and it raised the level of discourse in politics. That was a breath of fresh air.

      Reply
      • weka 4.2.1
        6 June 2025 at 4:57 pm

        I think you're missing the point. There's obviously plenty to criticise about the Ardern government's two terms. The left is very good at the negative. In this interview, she's demonstrating something we need. As I said in the post, it's not that she hasn't made mistakes, but there is this whole other thing that she did that is beyond the disappointments of the Labour government.

        Reply
        • gsays 4.2.1.1
          6 June 2025 at 5:00 pm

          Hey, fair enough.

          I haven't watched the clip yet, after those 1 pm briefings, I hit peak Ardern real quick.

          Reply
          • weka 4.2.1.1.1
            6 June 2025 at 6:29 pm

            I didn't watch a lot of those. Other than one of the US university speeches she made recently, I haven't watched her at all since she left. There was something quite remarkable on display.

            There's another conversation here as well, which is what we expect of our leaders and what is possible. In the interview she talks about pragmatism a number of times. The main questions I have been left with are why does Labour not raise the benefits of people with disabilities who can't work? And what happened to the Tax Working Group mahi? Obviously Peters/NZF were a brake in the first term, but the second term is still a puzzle that isn't explained by the idea that they were gutless or committed centrists.

            Reply
            • Anne 4.2.1.1.1.1
              7 June 2025 at 10:38 am

              I suspect the coffers were largely bare after 2 years of a global pandemic and the necessity to keep the general economy ticking over. Add to that, the toll from the associated pressure and stress must have been enormous. I don't think most people realise what a massive load they carried during the Covid years in particular.

              The beneficiary was the current government who inherited a better economy than most governments achieved after Covid, and what did they do? Squandered it on tax cuts for the rich. That was a thank-you card to the rich for all the dosh which enabled them to effectively gerrymander the campaign to their advantage.

              My guess is, if the voters had returned the Labour led government that money would have been spent on raising benefits significantly across the board and they would have introduced a fairer tax system which they didn't dare campaign on… because of the successful campaign by the right to demonise the proposal.

              Reply
              • Macro …
                7 June 2025 at 10:57 am

                yes

                Totally Anne. It never ceases to amaze me just how ungrateful so many of this country are. The saying "voters get the government they deserve" is just so fundamentally true.

                Reply
                • Anne …
                  7 June 2025 at 11:18 am

                  It certainly is a lack of gratitude by many, but others are genuinely fooled by the right rhetoric which comes at them from every quarter. I have family members who fall into the latter category. They are intelligent but politically illiterate [don't know it of course] and they are still at the stage where they listen to the likes of ZB radio to get their political fix. I went through that stage about 50 years ago!

                  Reply
              • weka …
                7 June 2025 at 11:16 am

                hard agree about the stress, it's something we don't talk about. Not only of managing the pandemic, but also whoever in government was getting covid and having to deal with that personally.

                Not so sure about the empty coffers thing. We know there was a large transfer of wealth to large companies during the pandemic. And wouldn't the TWG recommendations have increased revenue? Plus Ardern ruled out a CGT.

                Labour did raise benefits in that time in several ways eg the winter energy payment. However I think it's ideological to an extent. At the start of the pandemic when the government paid workers who were losing wages, beneficiaries got zilch going into lockdown when everyone with cash was buying masks and supplies. That's ideology.

                I specifically mentioned disabled beneficiaries who can't work. One can make a pragmatic centre left argument for keeping the dole low: savings for the state, incentive for people to get work.

                I don't agree and think a UBI with welfare bolted on and removal of sanctions would in the long run cost the state less and would lift people out over poverty so they can focus on work. But the pragmatic argument makes some kind of sense.

                But the pragmatic argument doesn't work with non-working disabled people. I've never seen a credible argument for why Labour holds this position of enforced poverty for this cohort.

                Reply
                • Anne …
                  7 June 2025 at 11:27 am

                  Your knowledge of this subject is vastly superior to mine, so am happy to accept your arguments. I am a macro person, as in looking at big pictures, but not too hot on the micro.

                  Reply
            • Andrew 4.2.1.1.1.2
              8 June 2025 at 7:12 pm

              My understanding is that Cullens advice to her on Tax Working Group was that a CGT would be the kiss of death for the Party

              Reply
              • weka …
                8 June 2025 at 9:20 pm

                As in lose the next election? Or destroy the party?

                Reply
              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                8 June 2025 at 9:34 pm

                The Tax Working Group unanimously agreed “that there should be an extension of the taxation of capital gains from residential rental investment properties“, and eight members supported “the introduction of a broad[er] approach to the taxation of captial gains.”

                Final conclusions
                The taxation of capital gains
                8. All the members of the Group agree that there should be an extension of the taxation of capital gains from residential rental investment properties. Eight members of the Group support the introduction of a broad approach to the taxation of capital gains. This would involve a realisation-based tax that is applied to capital gains on a broad range of assets, at full rates, with no allowance for inflation.

                Hon Michael Cullen, KNZM
                Chair, Tax Working Group
                February 2019

                Tax Working Group members:
                Marjan van den Belt
                Professor Craig Elliffe
                Joanne Hodge
                Kirk Hope
                Nick Malarao
                Geof Nightingale
                Robin Oliver, MNZM
                Hinerangi Raumati, MNZM
                Michelle Redington
                Bill Rosenberg

                https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2019-03/twg-final-report-voli-feb19-v1.pdf

                Reply
                • Andrew …
                  10 June 2025 at 6:37 pm

                  Recommendations and pragmatic advice on the impact of following through on them in a broader context, can be two different things

                  Reply
                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    10 June 2025 at 7:16 pm

                    They can be different things – anything's possible, sans evidence smiley

                    Sir Michael Cullen: ‘Vested interests‘ sank Capital Gains Tax idea [22 April 2019]
                    As I [Cullen] warned on many occasions, it was always going to be hard to get Peters and his colleagues over the line on a CGT. In any case, New Zealand First’s current polling levels scarcely suggest it has political capital to burn.

                    It seems likely that the option of a CGT limited to rental property (as suggested by the minority on the Tax Working Group) was the position Labour was moving to before the final decision by New Zealand First was delivered.

                    In that regard I find myself strangely indebted to Peters as I would have found it difficult to welcome such a narrowly based CGT.

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/sir-michael-cullen-vested-interests-sank-capital-gains-tax-idea/KALFGZWZRFQWE3CYO3IIWJSDAI/

                    Reply
                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    11 June 2025 at 12:53 pm

                    Do you have an opinion on why CGT wasnt progressed once NZ First were out of the picture?

                    No, sorry. I doubt Cullen advised Ardern "that a CGT would be the kiss of death for the Party" – maybe others believed it and acted accordingly?

                    Reply
        • Andrew 4.2.1.2
          10 June 2025 at 6:54 pm

          Agree, the interview was quite a contrast to the RNZ one with Jessie Mulligan. There is a temptation in Aotearoa to over-simplify and blame. It wasnt until I read Langes biography that I realised how much the PM role is just 'the messenger'

          Reply
      • Bearded Git 4.2.2
        7 June 2025 at 4:40 am

        Yeah gsays but look at the long long list of things that the COC repealed or massively changed when they got elected and tell me Labour didn't deliver despite having to deal with Covid, massive cyclone costs, White Island, the mosque attack.

        Examples would be:

        -the 10 year Bright Line Test (which effectively was a partial CGT)

        -high levels of quality state housing being built

        -Three Waters,

        -the Spatial Planning Act

        -The Natural Built Act

        -Lake Onslow scheme

        (the above four were massive reforms/schemes that were always going to need time to fully implement-the COC is also struggling with them or has knee-jerk repealed them)

        -the clean car discount

        -Fair Pay agreements

        -Half price public transport for under 25's

        -a higher Minimum Wage

        -strong anti smoking laws

        -lower speed limits on dangerous roads

        -the Maori Health Authority

        -pay equity for women settlements

        -repeal of 90 day trial

        -regular and widespread tests for bowel cancer

        -taxpayer funding of cultural reports giving Maori a better chance of justice

        -reduced prison population with a focus on rehabilitation

        -dedicated funding for EV charger roll-out

        -stronger firearm legislation

        -central govt involvement in Lets Get Wellington Moving

        ……….and so on and on.

        Reply
        • gsays 4.2.2.1
          7 June 2025 at 7:48 am

          Digital Services Bill can go on yr list.

          I'll add Marsden Point slipping into obsolescence minutes under their watch.

          We can go backwards and forwards.

          An sporting analogy that occurs to me is a comparison with the 2007 World Cup All Blacks that were bundled out in the quarter finals.

          Like the unprecedented MMP majority government, there was such high hopes and what comes with it is bitter disappointment.

          Reply
          • Bearded Git 4.2.2.1.1
            7 June 2025 at 10:41 am

            Love the metaphor.

            I just think the Jacinda haters (from both Left and Right) are plain wrong.

            Luxon, The Herald and Newstalk ZB repeating something endlessly does not make it true.

            Reply
    • Darien Fenton 4.3
      7 June 2025 at 4:14 pm

      This from the man who said I needed a makeover.

      Reply
  5. Res Publica 5
    6 June 2025 at 4:02 pm

    I feel Jacinda Ardern will eventually be remembered as one of our better Prime Ministers. And as a leader of rare moral clarity in an increasingly cynical world.

    She’ll remain a useful comparator to many of her less competent or principled contemporaries.

    But the 5th Labour Government leaves behind a complicated legacy. On one hand, it showed remarkable emotional intelligence and decisiveness in leading the country through the trauma of the Christchurch terror attacks and the chaos of COVID-19. Few could have done that better.

    On the other, it failed to seize the historic opportunity presented by the 2020 landslide. That was a moment ripe for structural reform: on housing, inequality, climate. And the government simply didn’t deliver.

    The electorate gave Labour the keys to do more than just manage; it asked for change.

    Part of that missed opportunity, I suspect, lies with Ardern herself.

    As sincere and compassionate as she undoubtedly is, I get the sense she’s not, by nature, a bold reformer. She emerged from a Labour Party that had grown increasingly cautious, one that took the wrong lessons from clinging to power in 2005. And then spent nearly a decade in opposition adrift, unsure whether to reclaim its social democratic roots or settle as a gentler version of National.

    We also need to acknowledge that Ardern led under extraordinary and often hostile conditions. The level of abuse she endured, much of it viciously personal, misogynistic, and conspiratorial was unlike anything seen before in New Zealand politics.

    That environment must have taken an enormous toll and likely contributed to her eventual decision to step down. It’s hard to govern boldly when you’re constantly under siege.

    In the round, while we should mourn and reflect on Labour’s failure of courage between 2020 and 2023, we should also take pride and strength from the fact that it happened at all. That New Zealanders were willing to vote for a vision of compassion, competence, and collective wellbeing, even if it wasn’t fully realised, is itself a sign of democratic health.

    It shows there is an appetite for bold, humane leadership. The task now is to make sure the next time that opportunity arises, it’s met with not just good intentions, but real follow-through.

    Reply
    • weka 5.1
      6 June 2025 at 5:00 pm

      out of curiosity, did you watch the interview. We all know what was wrong with that Labour government, I was pointing to something else.

      Reply
    • Ad 5.2
      6 June 2025 at 5:05 pm

      OMG she delivered so little except stasis.

      I wish people wouldn't moan about gender in New Zealand parliamentary politics. We're one of the cleanest, least-partisan, least corrupt, least violent places to do politics in the world. Ardern's rise had been cushioned within Labour and was promoted way too fast with no executive record on her at all, and it showed.

      What you mourn is what she lacked. Ardern had one of the safest coalitions in her first term, and the most ginormous majorities in her second term, from which she could have delivered anything she wanted.

      The policy platforms she could have gone for she backed out of.

      The policies of any note that she went for mostly failed.

      And the second career is honestly vainglorious preaching about her own virtue.

      Give me a break.

      Reply
    • Obtrectator 5.3
      6 June 2025 at 5:45 pm

      But the 5th Labour Government leaves behind a complicated legacy.

      I've largely given up on delivering pedantic gotchas, but wasn't Jacinda's the 6th Labour government?

      Reply
    • bwaghorn 5.4
      7 June 2025 at 8:51 am

      She was failed by minister s that where either dreamers or woefully inadequate, that said it take a slightly bumbling but improving the country labour party to a bunch of corrupt cronies enriching a few while flushing this country down the shitter any day.

      Reply
  6. Psycho Milt 6
    6 June 2025 at 9:03 pm

    Thanks for this, I'd never have looked at a Campbell/Stewart video without that recommendation. It is good to see her so relaxed and happy, she deserves it. Over and over again, years after she quit politics, I see on X "Trending in New Zealand: Ardern," and it's never a good idea to click the link.

    Reply
  7. Darien Fenton 7
    7 June 2025 at 4:04 pm

    I havent read the book, but seen the excerpts. We can all revisit history, but for me, Jacinda is the real deal. She didn't expect to become an MP, nor PM, nor demand it. I completely understand her views on imposter syndrome having felt like that most of my life, as many women do, but then we push ourselves and sometimes regret it and wish we had chosen an easier path. She was also a friend and for me, what was precious was her time as the union liaison under Helen Clark's govt and how when she left she went to the US and volunteered in a soup kitchen and connected with low paid women through the SEIU. When she became an MP, we went through a turbulent period with other colleagues in opposition. I am so glad she now feels free to open up.

    Reply
    • weka 7.1
      7 June 2025 at 5:22 pm

      she looks liberated.

      Reply
      • weka 7.1.1
        7 June 2025 at 5:23 pm

        In the Colbert interview she side steps his question about what she misses about being PM. It's such a full on job anyway, but the things she dealt with, crises and the abuse as well as giving birth and raising a young child. It's sad for NZ that she left the job but utterly understandable.

        Reply
  8. Phillip ure 8
    9 June 2025 at 10:57 am

    I will not be reading the book…and tried watching the Colbert…and lasted about a minute..

    There are too many unanswered questions to just passively accept this spin on it ..

    And I was wondering if those who have read/watched could let us know if she answered one of the big ones ..

    Namely:..why did she choke..and walk away from her responsibilities/promises…?

    ..and leaving all the work done to date.. to be bonfired by hipkins..?

    I am sure I am not the only one who would really like to hear the answer to that question..in her own words..

    All that we have had to date is other people's reckons..

    We need/deserve more ..

    Reply

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