Military coup underway in Turkey: Erdo-gone?

Written By: - Date published: 9:31 am, July 16th, 2016 - 135 comments
Categories: colonialism, Europe, Globalisation, im/migration, International, iraq, Syria - Tags:

UPDATE 2

It seems clear now that the attempted military coup has failed in under 12 hours. Over a thousand military personnel are under arrest. The death toll from the incident stands at just under 100. Dozens of senior military officers have been relieved of their positions.

It is clear that the coup was poorly planned and poorly executed, and the coup plotters are now facing grim days as Erdogan leads a purge and tightens his grip over every aspect of Turkish life.

 

UPDATE

It appears that the coup plotters have made a critical error in not shutting down access to the internet. Tens of thousands of Turkish citizens have heeded calls by Erdogan and others to turn out on the streets and confront the military forces. BBC is reporting that the state broadcaster is back on air after Erdogan supporters swamped the building.

As it stands, momentum is now against the coup plotters. They will not be facing a happy ending at this rate.

(Fact: Turkey has the largest military out of all European NATO countries, i.e. even compared to the UK, Germany and France).

The moment an explosion hits the Turkish Parliamentary buildings:

Early reports in via RT and Zero Hedge

Tanks, military personnel and fighter jets have been deployed around Ankara – all without Turkish Government permission.

It is quite possible that secular elements of the Turkish Armed Forces are no longer confident in the Erdogan’s government pro-Islamist handling of the Syrian/Iraqi/Kurdish/Russian confrontation which has deeply hurt both the Turkish economy and Turkish security over the last 2-3 years.

From RT:

Part of the military is attempting a coup in Turkey, the country’s Prime Minister Binali Yıldırım said, following reports of military jets and helicopters flying low over Ankara and Istanbul.

“Some people took illegal action outside of the chain of command,” Yildirim told news network NTV. “The government elected by the people remains in charge. This government will only go when the people say so,” he added.

According to the PM, Turkish security forces were doing what needs to be done to resolve the situation.

The Turkish Military say they have now got control of the country (via Zero Hedge):

The State broadcaster TRT, occupied by military officers, announces that military has taken over the authority all across Turkey. The military just declared martial law.

  • TURKEY’S GOVT LOST ITS LEGITIMACY AND HAS BEEN OVERTHROWN: TRT

  • MARTIAL LAW DECLARED ACROSS TURKEY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE: TRT

  • TURKEY’S STATE-RUN TRT TV READS OUT STATEMENT FROM ARMY GROUP

  • ERDOGAN ON HIS WAY TO ATATURK AIRPORT: ANADOLU

 

More updates as they become available.

Update: The BBC is reporting that thousands of citizens have taken to the streets and are confronting the army coup plotters. The main TV station appears to have been liberated from the military and there are reports that the police have arrested some of the military. President Erdogan is trying to re-enter the country (he was on holiday) and he has spoken to the nation via social media.

 

Live Updates:

The Guardian

BBC

CNN

 

 

 

135 comments on “Military coup underway in Turkey: Erdo-gone?”

  1. mauī 1

    President Erdogan is reported being loved by half the population and hated by the other half… sounds familiar lol.

  2. It does seem to be a reaction to Erdogan’s bending of the rules. Turkey is a secular state, but his party has tried to Islamify the country and at the same time destroy religious and political opposition.

    Erdogan’s government has regularly censored the internet and attacked freedom of the press. Ironic that the coup leaders have done the same.

    According to the BBC, the head of the military is under house arrest, the two major bridges are blocked off, the State broadcaster has been forced to read propaganda, and the main airport has been surrounded.

  3. Ad 3

    Pretty hard to have much sympathy for Erdogan as a domestic leader. He attacks the press including the big bust-up of the leading newspaper last month, loathes gays, rampant suppression of all religions except Islam, won’t solve the PKK search for autonomy, and pretty crap at managing the economy.

    A sad irony that he now wants The People to rise up and defend him.

    But here’s where my sympathy gets balanced.

    Turkey has had a massive impact from the Syrian war.
    It is dealing with millions of refugees and defeated rebels.
    It is under military threat from its Syrian and Iraqi borders.
    None of its neighbors provide much economic support as they are basket-cases.

    Democracy in Turkey has been a fragile thing for multiple decades.

    I don’t support Erdogan, but I support a military takeover of a three-times elected government even less.

    • Colonial Viper 3.1

      The reason that Turkey has suffered a massive negative impact from the Syrian War is that Turkey has been logistically and financially facilitating the Syrian War.

      It has supported to the hilt Islamist rebels – including ISIS and al Nusra – that Ankara had hoped would be the stone that would kill two birds: the Kurdish “problem” on it’s Syrian border, and Bashar al-Assad. Turkey has permitted its border to be completely porous to Islamist fighters, munitions, oil and money.

  4. It appears to be the Gulen movement, an Islamic cult, that has launched the coup.

    • Bill 4.1

      A presidential source says it’s the Gulen movement. According to CNN, so does Erdogan.

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara?page=with:block-57895aace4b033b610b6e3fa#block-57895aace4b033b610b6e3fa

      The Gulen movement and Erdogan worked hand in hand as recently as 2012.

      https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2012/jan/09/press-freedom-turkey

      And the Gulen movement does seem to be deeply woven into the fabric of Turkish scoiety.

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/09/turkish-police-fethullah-gulen-network

      • dukeofurl 4.1.1

        Doesnt really seem to be cult in western terms seems to be a descendant of the Ataturk style modernisations

        The movement has been characterized as a “moderate blend of Islam.”
        Gülen and the Gülen movement are technology-friendly, work within current market and commerce structures, and are savvy users of modern communications public relations.
        Within Turkey the Gülen movement keeps its distance from established Islamic political parties.
        Usually referred to as Hizmet (“the Service”) by its followers and as Cemaat (“the Community/Assembly”) by the broader public in Turkey-Wiki

        • Bill 4.1.1.1

          Their website. (It’s in English)

          http://www.gulenmovement.us/

          From the scraps of info and on first impressions, I’d pick them as a far better option to Erdogan’s dictatorship, but hey…

          • te reo putake 4.1.1.1.1

            Not if they are intend changing the constitution from secular to religious. Eerdogan isn’t a dictator, btw. He’s elected.

            • Bill 4.1.1.1.1.1

              He was elected off the back of an election whose legitimacy was deeply contested. From memory he shut down all news outlets that were critical of him and his party. And no doubt there was other stuff…can’t say I’ve followed Turkey’s domestic politics very closely.

              On the broader claim that a dictator can’t be elected….Hitler?

              • Hitler was indeed elected. But he installed himself as Fuhrer shortly after. Erdogan, for all his many faults, has operated inside the constitution.

                • Bill

                  From the BBC – not known for being a critic of “Official Friends”

                  Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s AK Party enjoys a fierce and loyal support among Turkey’s conservative, Muslim base, while outside the country outrage grows over his silencing of critics, often by force.

                  Turkish journalists have been investigated and put on trial, foreign journalists have been harassed and deported. Last month, police raided Turkey’s biggest newspaper, Zaman. Its staff emerged bloodied and cowed.

                  Zaman’s last independent edition said Turkey’s press had seen one of its “darkest days”. Its first edition under state control carried unabashedly pro-government articles.

                  And Mr Erdogan’s authoritarian approach is not confined to Turkey’s borders. His bodyguards harassed reporters in the US, and a German satirist is under investigation in his home country for offending the Turkish president on TV.

                  It goes on to catalogue more abuses.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      You do not recognise the actions of a dictator held in place by violence?

                    • Bill

                      Wow. None of that matters trp? It’s (according to your contention) all “within the constitution” and so fine?

                      There comes a point where cleaving to a conservative establishment line becomes really fucking unsavoury – like when abuses get excused or waved aside on the grounds that they’re (allegedly) entirely constitutional.

                    • And you apparently think governments you don’t like should be overthrown by military coups. Scratch a libertarian and see the fascist beneath.

                    • Bill

                      Oh dear, confronted with the threat of intelligent debate and a need to think critically, you trp, yet again dive for the cover of ad homs and utterly insubstantial allegations.

                      Well done.

                    • Jackboot Billy gets upset because he accidentally exposed his ugly side. Sad, really.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      🙄

                    • A couple of comments from this thread were (hopefully unintentionally) deleted.

                      Peter Swift:
                      Date published: 4:22 pm, July 16th, 2016

                      “gets upset because he accidentally exposed his ugly side” Not for the first or the last time one suspects. “Jackboot Billy” lol

                      Te Reo Putake
                      2016/07/16 at 4:52 pm

                      I think there’s a corollary with the coup plotters.

                      If its the cult that was identified earlier behind the coup attempt, then, on the surface, they appear to be religious moderates. However, one of the the first things they intended to do was suspend the secular constitution and replace it with one of their own.

                      The mask quickly slipped.

                    • Bill

                      No trp.

                      But when you (presumably) cut and pasted the content of the comment that I’d moved to open mike (that’s now sitting in trash), the idiot response from Peter Swift disappeared because it was nested under the comment of yours that had been moved.

                      In other words, Peter Swift’s comment was on ‘open mike’ , not here – as you well know.

                      It disappeared because that’s what happens when you take it upon yourself to play the silly bugger with comments that have, for good reason, been moderated and shifted.

                      This from you was also apparently (search functions are kind of nice) posted to Open Mike and not here….I think there’s a corollary with the coup plotters. If its the cult that was identified earlier behind the coup attempt, then, on the surface, they appear to be religious moderates. However, one of the the first things they intended to do was suspend the …

                    • Peter Swift

                      You got mad, Billy, and you reacted typically.
                      TRP, in my opinion, is quite correct on this.

                      And jackboot Billy is funny as lol
                      I got a mental picture now that will never fade. Damage done.

                      [Jack Boot Bill would actually scan better. Y’know “tak – tak – tak”…three, one syllable words having a more, how to say, sharp aural impact reminiscent of authoritarianism or fascism than the one, one, two pattern used by trp. Anyway, that aside, you’re telling lies about an author. And for being stupid enough to jump with evident enthusiasm into some rickety night cart trp is hauling because you though it was some kind of a bandwagon worth jumping aboard, – you pick yourself up a six week ban.] – Bill

          • te reo putake 4.1.1.1.2

            Not if they are intend changing the constitution from secular to religious. Erdogan isn’t a dictator, btw. He’s elected.

            • Ad 4.1.1.1.2.1

              Erdogan has been repeatedly elected to Prime Minister and then to President by pretty good majorities since 2003.

              Prior to that he was elected multiple times to be Mayor of Istanbul.

              • Bill

                What?

                The June 2015 elections resulted in a hung parliament. and a second election, where a campaign marked by intimidation and violence set against a backdrop of growing state oppression, resulted in an increase in the vote for the AKP… that’s hardly indicative of the sanguine “people came, people voted” image your comment suggests.

                • Ad

                  His party has 315 seats out of 550 seats in the current parliament.

                  My bet is, once he’s shot the rebelling General and a few of his cohorts for treason, he will simply invite a new coalition partner.

                  And we will be back to parliamentary rule. As Turkey should be.

                  I am guessing though that you have some alternative in mind.
                  But then, so does the traitorous General and his troops.

                  • Bill

                    You’re guessing wrong. I have no “alternative” in mind. I just want to understand shit so that my opinions are better informed.

                    Erdogan gives not one whit for accountable parliamentary governance. He would willingly use it to establish unaccountable Presidential power. That much I understand.

                    As for those seeking to execute the military coup, I have no real idea who they are or, were they to succeed, if things would improve for people in Turkey or what changes (positive and negative) would take place with regards Syria, Kurds etc.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1.3

            I wouldn’t. I can’t see a scenario where Ergodan (foul as he is) is worse than a civil war. Enough Turks apparently agree.

            Having said that, Ergodan’s misrule surely makes these kinds of responses more likely, if not inevitable.

    • esoteric pineapples 4.2

      This is an interesting comment on the situation from the Kurdish Female Fighters YPJ Facebook page. They would know a thing or two about what is going on.

      “Would like to let everyone know.

      There’s nothing clear in the situation about weather it’s coup or not.

      This can be one of the old style, typical Ottoman’s game to oppress minorities or it can be an internal power sharing conflict between Pro Erdogan’s regime (president of Turkey) and Turkish cleric, Fetullah Gülen or Kemalists, (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk) who’s known as Ataturk by Turks.

      On 5 July a Turkish military chopper that had military commanders and their families inside, mysteriously crushed and 7 Turkish military personals, including their family members killed in this chopper crush, but Turkish media didn’t cover this so much. This seems to be an internal power sharing conflict between, current Turkish regime, Turkish cleric, Fetullah Gülen and Kemalists. These three names have both military and police personal loyalists, but in general, police personals are with the Turkish Erdogan’s regime and military is mixed. Military can have Kemalists majority.

      There’s not much difference between Erdogan and Gülen, the Turkish cleric. Erdogan used to be the student of Gülen and they were working together against Kurdish people until 6-7 years ago. But then everything changed after these two internally fought each other over the power sharing and Erdogan imprisoned all Gülen’s loyalists within Turkish military, police and other Turkish official institutions. Erdogan betrayed his teacher and purged military, police and law enforcement from his teacher’s, Gülen’s loyalists.

      All of these mentioned names are against Kurdish people. The situation for Kurdish people in northern part of Kurdistan (southeastern Turkey) won’t be any better if not worse. “

  5. mauī 5

    Some civilians are being shot on streets of Instanbul according to CNN. Shit

  6. dukeofurl 6

    is it a ‘colonels coup’ or from the top brass forming a junta?

  7. mauī 7

    It looks a very dangerous situation, with Erdogan able to make a broadcast through that facetime app thingy calling his supporters onto the streets. Now the military who are blocking bridges etc are surrounded by hundreds or thousands of angry civilians. Not good.

  8. Poission 8

    “There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.”

    Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

  9. joe90 9

    It's almost 2 a.m. and mosques across Istanbul are relentlessly calling people to the streets to resist and protest the military coup.— Ceylan Yeginsu (@CeylanWrites) July 15, 2016

    https://twitter.com/hashtag/TurkishCoup?src=hash

  10. One Two 10

    The ‘next distraction’ arrived more quickly than I had anticipated

    The fake weapons and ID card of Nice, is yesterdays news

    • Infused 10.1

      You just have no clue what’s going on in the world.

      • One Two 10.1.1

        Ignoring that there were fake weapons and a passport (I mean ID) the script followed is the same used [name the event], and as I predicted yesterday, the next distraction arrived on cue. Sooner than I expected being the only delta

        As you have no clue who I am, your comment is that of an imbicile, which reading your archives is about the level you operate at around here

  11. Bill 11

    Very informative piece by Daryl McCann writing for the ABC. I’ve cut and pasted some of the more salient points, but the entire piece and the links it provides are well worth taking the time to read and explore if you’ve an interest in forming a reasonable picture of what sits behind on-going unrest in Turkey.

    These days (March 2016) president Erdoğan increasingly behaves like a cross between Macbeth and King Lear, jailing hundreds of cartoonists, journalist and even children for “insulting” him on the one hand, and laying waste to large swathes of Turkey’s south-east on the other.

    …even the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), oppose Erdoğan’s quest to make himself the “elected dictator” of Turkey and create a constitution more to his liking.

    Erdoğan initiated a sectarian war during the second half of 2015 to secure a majority of seats for the AKP at the November 1, 2015 re-election.

    Erdoğan ought to stop burning down the house in order to get his hands on the title of the deed.

    • Ad 11.1

      I have little sympathy for Erdogan given his rule, as I noted above in 3.

      But I find it hard to agree with the author of your link that Erdogan’s brutal style of rule is the necessary cause of the terrorist attacks in Turkey in March. It would certainly be very neat.

      There are alternative causes of instability to consider.

      Perhaps the harshest and longest war the modern world has seen has thrown some pretty nasty people over its Syrian border. Would seem highly likely in fact.

      A certain degree of sustained security in governmental rule could arguably be warranted with Turkey beset by chaos on every border around it. Kurdistan region. Iraq. Armenia. Greece. Syria. Russia breathing down. Saudi Arabia not lifting a finger to help, again.

      Would be pretty hard not to choose sides in that war, and be seen not to choose sides. And yet Turkey has been pretty important in brokering the truces and occasional bits of peace that have broken out. They were going to be on one wrong side or other; either the Assad/Iran/Russia side, or the Saudi/ISIS/US whatever side.

      Turkey has done pretty well without EU support to sustain millions of refugees it now contains. But they put a fair old pressure on its society.

      Turkey’s economy has not been doing well since 2008, despite being touted nearly a decade ago as a rising BRIC. That’s not entirely in Erdogan’s control. Although a lot more of it could be.

      Not to speak too loud about it, but the history of coups in 1960, 1971, and 1980 have been dampened for a while. Erdogan’s style of rule has something to do with that.

      So while it’s convenient right now to make Erdogan the symbol for everything wrong in the society (and I ain’t defending his style of rule as noted in 3), and hence attribute to him some inevitable cause of a coup attempt, I think there’s a bit more going on.

      • Colonial Viper 11.1.1

        Why are you totally ignoring Turkey’s active support of anti-Assad and anti-Kurdish Islamist fighters, including allowing ISIS military units to use Turkey as a logistics, medical and financial base?

  12. Infused 12

    From all accounts it looks good he’s gone.

    • Ad 12.1

      Well fuck.

      Events are in the saddle, and we ride.

    • Ad 12.2

      Nope, looks like the worst is over.

      If so, first time a major Turkish coup has been defeated in decades.

      His purge will be massive.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 12.2.1

        …and is exactly the sort of witless stupidity that makes coup attempts more likely. Ergodan is a disease.

  13. Sanctuary 13

    Well, if the coup has failed then that is the end of Turkey’s brave experiment to be both a muslim country and a modern secular state. Turkey will now slide into religious radicalism, corruption, and totalitarianism. The Russians will be breaking out the champagne at the return of the sick man of Europe, and the Greeks just got a whole lot more important to NATO. Kemal Ataturk will be weaping in his grave. If you haven’t visited Gallipoli yet, do it soon because Turkey is about to become an unsafe place to be a westerner.

    • Ad 13.1

      Far too early for such sweeping judgements.

      Erdogan’s background is not radically Islamic.
      The failure of the coup is good news for democracy as a principle, and a massive win for the people who took to the streets in support. But also a real wakeup for all nearby countries.

      Erdogan will use this as partially legitimate rationale for purging all sorts. Regrettably that will also include the media, the PKK, and general dissent. He will make the military cower to him. Which is not all bad, particularly given this is the first big coup to be stopped dead in its tracks in decades.

      • Psycho Milt 13.1.1

        Erdogan’s background is not radically Islamic.

        So? Any kind of “Islamic” is toxic to secularism, the rule of law and human rights in Turkey, as witnessed by the guy’s entire time as president. The failure of the coup isn’t any kind of news for democracy, as democracy in Turkey is on the way out whoever wins this. The demise is a bit more obvious if the military win, but that’s about it.

        • Ad 13.1.1.1

          Shock news: secular governments are not the only effective governments.

          Bring the smelling salts.

          • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1.1

            That’s right, there was effective government in medieval times too. But not democratic ones.

            • Ad 13.1.1.1.1.1

              Plenty of religiously-inclined governments are also democratically elected. Completely secular ones are the exception globally.
              Happy to grant also that there can be too much religion in government.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                too much

                That would be “some”. Yes, I’m aware that several NZ public institutions genuflect to the sky-fairies, and that strangling the last priest will be a slow and painful process. After all, the oldest books in the world point out how religion is all you have left when you’ve given up ethics and morality.

                Good things take time.

                • Ad

                  I’m sorry for your anti-religious bias. It doesn’t become you.

                  Helpfully, the secular minority in this world is rapidly declining.

                  Those who understand the religious impulse understand the post-western world that is well on its way.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Triumphant words indeed. Proud even. My anti religious bias (or any other part of my state of mind) isn’t yours to be sorry for, although I note the insult.

                    Careful, your values are showing.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    And the trend is accelerating.

                    • Ad

                      I’ll probably have to slide from Ad to Adbusters here.

                      For whatever reason, since 9/11 we have seen more and more of the old western presumptions that secularism, and the post-WW2 institutions that built on them (UN, IMF, World Bank, EU etc), corroding and breaking down. And, agreed, that trend is accelerating.

                      It is very easy to see huge rises in less-or-more radical versions of Islam as a repudiation of western values.
                      Repudiation of godless western capitalism.
                      Godless western sexuality.
                      Godless western materialism.
                      Godless western families.
                      Godless western individualism.
                      The new believers get to have a life sufficiently disciplined that it can be sustained despite the total saturation of such biases throughout the MSM and other media against religion in any form.

                      And they get to presume that their values are more powerful than capitalism, communism, state control, intelligence gathering.
                      And they are winning.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I forgot who said it: the most common way people give up their power is by believing that they have none.

                      Therefore the corollary is: the most common way people regain their power is by believing (having faith) that it is theirs.

          • Psycho Milt 13.1.1.1.2

            Sure (after all, “effective” also encompasses “effective at suppressing all opposition”). Secular governments are however the only ones in which the rule of law and civil rights have a shit’s show.

            • Ad 13.1.1.1.2.1

              Go right ahead and prove that.

              You should be able to show that all secular democracies always have superior rule of law and civil rights to non-secular democracies, precisely because they are secular.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                “Should” according to what? The Book of Empty Rhetoric?

                • Ad

                  According to PsychoMilt’s claim.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Correction: according to your (deliberate? Probably) misrepresentation. Why are you bearing false witness?

                    • Ad

                      “Secular governments are however the only ones in which the rule of law and civil rights have a shit show.”

                      Go right ahead.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Yes, I know what his claim is and I saw how you attempted to establish false premises for testing it. Try again.

                    • Ad

                      “Secular governments are however the only ones in which the rule of law and civil rights have a shit show.”

                      Go right ahead.
                      Defend that stated proposition from PsychoMilt.
                      You sound keen to.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Now you’ve moved from putting words in his mouth to putting words in mine, As I said: false witness. Toodles.

                    • Ad

                      Neither you nor PsychoMilt were able to defend the claim within the quote.

                      Back to the domestic league for you.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Your glorious victory over your strawman says nothing about PM’s claim. When you attack it, I’m sure someone will brush you off with ease. Again.

              • You should be able to show that all secular democracies always have superior rule of law and civil rights to non-secular democracies, precisely because they are secular.

                “All” secular democracies? I made no claim that secularism necessarily entails democracy, the rule of law and civil rights – only that Islamist governments are incapable of them. (“Islamist” in place of “non-secular” here because there’s currently only one religion that’s also a political ideology).

                Can you name even one Islamist government for which democracy, the rule of law and civil rights bear comparison with the world’s secular governments?

                • Ad

                  I missed you making it particular to Islam.

                  “Secular governments are however the only ones in which the rule of law and civil rights have a shit show.”

                  It’s up to you to prove your claim.

                  • In Vino

                    Perhaps it is an idealistic, utopian claim, in that it has not happened yet. I could also point out that I have never seen a religious regime achieve anything like the ideal. Galileo comes to mind, and I have little confidence in any government that is not secular. Religion is fine for individuals, but is poison for state government. Unless you want dogma, indoctrination, etc.
                    Mind you, capitalism gives us roughly that anyway. The marketers become the priests.

                    • Ad

                      So your point is what?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And how does that compare with what we are slaving under right now i.e. where the financiers, bankers and economists have been elevated to our Faux High Priests?

                    • In Vino

                      Ad seemed to miss the point, so thanks CV. Just hoping this post comes in at the right place.

                  • Well, OK, non-secular in general then – Modi’s pushing it pretty close in India, after all.

                    My claim is based on three things:

                    By definition, a non-secular state doesn’t have freedom of religion. One religion is advanced over other religions that citizens might follow, so civil rights are in the bin.

                    Second, a non-secular state necessarily involves enshrining at least some of the prescriptions and proscriptions of a religion in legislation (if it doesn’t, it might as well be a secular state). If rules are arbitrarily enshrined in law based on magic woo rather than will of the people, rule of law by definition can’t exist. And if religious rules are imposed on citizens who aren’t adherents of the religion, civil rights are again removed.

                    Third, a non-secular state usually involves the elevation of religious authorities to positions of political power, without due process. That’s both democracy and rule of law in the bin.

                    If there’s a way to create a non-secular state that doesn’t involve the above, nobody’s come up with it yet. Certainly Erdogan has no intention of being the first.

                    • Ad

                      I’ve run out of comment tabs now.

                      Try this as a post, stabilize your definitions, and let’s get to it.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      The legitimacy of a theocracy is likely to hang on its popular support.

                      “If rules are arbitrarily enshrined in law based on magic woo rather than will of the people, rule of law by definition can’t exist.”

                      If the religion is practically ubiquitous the ‘magic woo’ based law will reflect a popular or authentic conception of justice.

                      You have perhaps a romantic view of the integrity of legislatures – ours pass laws with great frequency that do not and could not attract a popular mandate. The Kantian process of common law gets little more than a disrespectful nod nowadays.

                      The problem with theocracies, aside from the corruption and character faults which plague all governments, is when pretending to religious virtue becomes a ground of competition within the state hierarchy. When that happens people are promoted on zealotry and are likely to impose more stringent impositions upon people than is compatible with the culture. Arguably some variations of political correctness can become a similar area of competition.

            • Stuart Munro 13.1.1.1.2.2

              Not all theocracies have been terribly oppressive – Tibetan rule was relatively benign by all accounts. Religion is largely what people make of it – and the same criticism can be made of democracy.

              • Ad

                And one could argue that the worst and most murderously geonocidal states we’ve ever seen were the most rigorously secular. USSR. China. Cambodia. Germany.

                • In Vino

                  Hitler’s regime was cuddled up to Catholicism. He was not an atheist. “Gott mit uns.” Take Germany out of that group please, and stop projecting your wishful thinking. None of those regimes you quote have done worse than religious ones – only equally badly.
                  But cheer up – I am sure that somebody somewhere will do even worse.

                  • Ad

                    Take Germany out if you like.
                    You can argue the point later with Bonhoeffer.

                    I’m not the one blaming religion for bad government.

                    • In Vino

                      Nor was Bonhoeffer an atheist. Hard to argue against him. I do not remember him accusing the Nazi regime of pushing atheism: just cruel immorality. Or amorality.

                      It would be nice to know who we should blame for bad government. I fear it is us.

              • Colonial Viper

                Iranian theocracy is scientifically advanced, intellectually liberal and civically modern. Compared to Saudi Arabia, anyway.

                • Stuart Munro

                  In some countries, like Algeria, where the population is overwhelmingly Muslim, a state that does not reflect that would be almost improper. The early European democracies were emphatically Christian but still made social progress. It is fair to press theocracies for tolerance however.

                  Saudi is complicated – at once liberal and tolerant and viciously conservative. The northern coastal area is relatively westernised. The royal family do not lead the faith however, so theocracy is not quite the term. I think psychologically one might describe Saudi a bit like a Mongol horde – consisting of highly mobile tribal groups with rather idiosyncratic cultures all under the ruling family.

                  We hear nothing good about Wahabism in the west, but Wahabi himself seems to have been a bit Rousseau like with respect to ruler’s duties to their people – so the Saudi state is generous to its citizens and in terms of distributive justice an example of a better managed oil state than Venezuela for example.

                  Have to be a bit careful in stating “Saudi did X”, when it may be “conservative minorities in Saudi did X”. America would not like to be broad-brushed as Westboro Baptist or the Waco cult.

                  • In some countries, like Algeria, where the population is overwhelmingly Muslim, a state that does not reflect that would be almost improper.

                    Why do you think the population is overwhelmingly Muslim in such countries? Hint: look up “apostasy in Islam.”

                    • Stuart Munro

                      The electoral results for FIS, the government of which Ahmed Zaoui was a part, were very strong, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_legislative_election,_1991 You’ll notice that the balloting system meant FLN as the lesser third party would have secured no further seats. I don’t see any legitimacy in such an action from a government retaining less than 5% of seats.

                      Terrorism in Algeria was particularly fraught – the government forces were as implicated in atrocities as the rebels, they had a reputation for torturing or disappearing people who reported terrorist activity. A friend of my friend returned home once to find pieces of his wife and children hanging from wires in the trees.

                      Yes, I’m aware of the apostasy issue with Islam – it is the kind of issue that makes the separation of church and state desirable. But I’m inclined to think that if one is serious about democracy then the views of very substantial majorities must be respected. FIS certainly commanded a very substantial majority – and by voter choice, not by the draconian enforcement of apostasy laws.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Tibetan rule was relatively benign by all accounts.

                Are you sure about that?

                • Well, “relatively” is of course a relative term. Benign in comparison to other theocracies, maybe?

                  • Stuart Munro

                    You may be setting the bar a little high – democracies and monarchies are not without problems. But not all theocracies are Aztec empires or Borgia Catholicism – asserting that they are manifestly wrong may be a step too far.

      • Sanctuary 13.1.2

        In the case of Turkey, it is most definitely NOT good news for democracy as a principle. Do you know anything about Turkish history? Basically, Ataturk created the modern Turkish state as a modern, secular institution out of the ruins of the corrupt and medieval Ottoman empire. Ataturk then made the army the guardian of that secular state.

        Erdogan is mobilising rural conservative Islam against the secular urban classes. That would be fine, if he was committed to democracy, the rule of law and freedom of speech but he isn’t. He is an incipient (probably full blown now) dictator who passes laws to stop people making fun of him.

        Assuming Errdogan has defeated the coup, he will move to become a full blown dictator. And the usual cycle of corruption, mob rule, economic collapse and the use of xenophobia as an excuse for the regimes failings will now take place. And we will see the flight of the skilled secular middle class who will easily fit into western societies.

        The Russians will be absolutely delighted. We are witnessing the collapse back into Ottoman orientalism of one of the southern bulwarks against Russian expansion. I hope Roger Fenton is dusting out his photography wagon, because history is about to repeat.

        The Greeks will be most pleased. They’ve just become too important to fail on NATOs southern flank. If I were them, I’d be going back to the Troika saying they just got dealt a stronger hand.

        Everyone else will feel sad. Turkey is a beautiful place and full of wonderful people, but only dark times beckon.

        • Ad 13.1.2.1

          Comparing Erdogan to Ataturk doesn’t serve any purpose.
          Ataturk had to clean up after the spectacular defeat and collapse of the entire Ottoman empire. It’s an entirely different state now, and different context.

          I have no need to defend Erdogan. He is indeed a thug. But defeating a coup as big as that needs extremely decisive government at all levels.

          What we have narrowly missed today however is an expansion of chaos in the Islamic-governed world from Pakistan to Nigeria. A small blessing.

          • Colonial Viper 13.1.2.1.1

            Again, you completely ignore Erdogan’s role in feeding Islamic extremism in Iraq and Syria, as well as shooting down a Russian jet in an attempt to involve NATO into a conflict against Russia. Chaos is Erdogan’s middle name.

            • Ad 13.1.2.1.1.1

              Erdogan could have supported the local Damascus florist and been shown to support extremists.

              You probably have more detail than I on who are the Syrian good extremists to support, and who the bad extremists to support. From where it looks to me, supporting any faction in Syria is supporting an extremist. The CIA couldn’t find eight actual individuals to call moderate, and support them. I’m sure you can generate some greater moral certainty for me on who should be supporting whom there.

              • Colonial Viper

                The answer is pretty simple and pretty cheap, you conditionally support the legitimate Syrian government of al-Assad until all the Islamist groups (or alphabet soup of terrorists as Moscow calls them) have given up arms, then you transition him out of power via democratic elections and set him and his family up in a $10M condo in Switzerland.

                • …the legitimate Syrian government of al-Assad…

                  Comedy gold.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    There is none other, despite the regime changing dreams of the western empire of chaos.

                    Who would love to see the black ISIS flag raised over Damascus and al-Assad rectally reemed by a knife, like Gaddafi was, in their previous project Libya.

                • Ad

                  I knew it would be simple.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    It’s the plan that Russia has been trying to advance for over a year now.

                    Focus on getting rid of ISIS and the rest of the Islamists first, then move Assad on, maintaining a democratic secular government throughout.

                    The main problem here is that Turkey, the US and Saudi Arabia quite like their Fundamental Islamist proxies in Syria.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1.2.2

          Your dire predictions have the ring of truth to them, and yet I cannot help but wonder whether the people who faced down tanks today are simply going to go along with it.

          I suppose they might all be Ergodan’s centre-right thugs…

          Es funktioniert auf die gleiche Art und Weise in jedem Land, but those good Germans didn’t have Facebook..

          • b waghorn 13.1.2.2.1

            “I suppose they might all be Ergodan’s centre-right thugs…”
            They might also know that stability under a thug is preferred to chaos in a vacumm like their neighbours.

  14. Tory 14

    This has Ergodans fingerprints all over it, no parliamentary majority so why not set up a coup followed by a state of emergency/enhanced parliamentary powers followed by a purge of the military. Turkey is heading back to the stone age and no doubt increased military strikes against the Kurds.

    • In Vino 14.1

      Such cynicism – yet I fear that you may be right. No pun intended.

    • Graeme 14.2

      Yeah, it’s a very un-Turkish coup, generally the Turkish military are very good at planing and executing them. The place has a history of running off the rails when operating as a democracy and getting put back on the track by the military. It’s brutal, but effective.

      I spent the evening reading up on the history of them, there’s been 4 since 1960. In the wikipedia article on the last one in 1997 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Turkish_military_memorandum there’s this quote, which I thought summed up the role the military plays in Turkish society well,

      “Çevik Bir, one of the generals who planned the process, said “In Turkey we have a marriage of Islam and democracy. (…) The child of this marriage is secularism. Now this child gets sick from time to time. The Turkish Armed Forces is the doctor which saves the child. Depending on how sick the kid is, we administer the necessary medicine to make sure the child recuperates”.[14]”

      If this is a put up job by Ergodan, expect the real thing very shortly

    • RedLogix 14.3

      @ Tory

      I’ve held back from saying anything about these events. Nothing passes any kind of sniff test.

    • Paul 14.4

      From the Guardian

      ‘Elaborating on the idea that Erdoğan may have staged the coup attempt, Aslandogan said Friday’s events did not match the pattern of previous coups.

      “The coup appears to be poorly planned,” he said, “very poorly executed and everything seems to be playing into Erdoğan’s hands. There are many big question marks of how [this attempted coup] was executed.”’

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/16/fethullah-gulen-turkey-coup-erdogan

      • Colonial Viper 14.4.1

        Military units saying they were ordered out of base on impromptu exercises ordered by superiors…then suddenly finding themselves part of a coup.

  15. One Two 15

    No chance the coup fails if it were ligitimate

    Mark Thatcher must have been involved

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      A very strange and inept coup. Internet and media kept broadcasting. Top 100 Erdogan officials – including Erdogan himself – still at large instead of held incommunicado in secret location.

      And now the counter-coup is in full force with thousands of judges, prosecutors, other govt officials purged out of the system, to be replaced by Erdogan Islamists.

      BTW Erdogan must already had all these purge name lists pre-drawn up before the coup. No way you investigate who was involved in the coup and identify 3000 or 4000 conspirators names over night.

  16. Chooky 16

    ‘Astonishing NATO nations did not come to aid of Erdogan govt’

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/351644-nato-nations-aid-erdogan/

    …”It’s interesting that the Prime Minister so quickly blamed the Gulen movement. Now, who is this movement? The cleric lives in the US. Well, that is the movement that reportedly funds the Hillary Clinton campaign. Certainly there will be people in Ankara not wishing for a Clinton presidency anytime soon given that so many supporters right now are being arrested. There are ties here that show how complex the events of the past 12 hours are….

    ‘Turkey coup attempt: Erdoğan demands US arrest exiled cleric Gülen amid crackdown on army – as it happened’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara

    (Recently Turkey had been trying to resume friendly relations with Russia

    ‘Putin Ends Russian Tourism Ban to Turkey After Erdogan Talks’

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-29/putin-lifts-ban-on-russian-tourism-to-turkey-after-erdogan-talks

    ‘Erdoğan has apologised for downing of Russian jet, Kremlin says’

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/27/kremlin-says-erdogan-apologises-russian-jet-turkish

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/28/erdogan-russia-turkey-foreign-policy )

    • One Anonymous Bloke 16.1

      “Astonishing” to anyone who believes what they read on rt, perhaps.

      On Earth, neither Ergodan – nor anyone else in the Turkish government asked for any such aid, which would be a prerequisite for deploying it.

      I wonder who profits from such feeble understanding of international law.

      • Colonial Viper 16.1.1

        On Earth, neither Ergodan – nor anyone else in the Turkish government asked for any such aid, which would be a prerequisite for deploying it.

        How did you get access to Turkish diplomatic communiques?

        Or do you mean that the Turkish govt didn’t use CNN to ask for NATO assistance so clearly they didn’t?

        • Paul 16.1.1.1

          Still don’t understand why a coup leader wouldn’t wait till 4 a.m. to start their move. More chance of surprise, surely?

          • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.1.1

            It was a very unusually disorganised coup. With no apparent coup leader appearing on TV and no apparent explanation to the public why they should support it. It appears to have involved less than half of military personnel.

            It totally failed to apprehend and isolate (and execute?) Erdogan and his 100 top lieutenants.

            And not turning off the internet and social media? Come on guys, this is not the 1980s any more.

            Everyone who launches a coup knows that if it fails, you will be up against a stone block wall, guaranteed.

            So it is very surprising that it was such a half arsed effort, and essentially over within a few hours.

            Even more surprising is Erdogan pointing the fingers at the USA. Which makes you wonder if the neocons, or the CIA, or some other faction of the US system, played a role somewhere.

            • Bastables 16.1.1.1.1.1

              The “unusually disorganised” canard for explaining a failure after the fact does not square with the accounts of witness to the attempted coup.

              https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/18/military-coup-was-well-planned-and-very-nearly-succeeded-say-turkish-officials

              “But as Turkey picks up the pieces after the failed coup, new details are emerging of how it unfolded, and just how close the military intervention came to succeeding. Many observers have labelled the attempt amateurish, but accounts by officials contradict this characterisation, describing it as well organised and very nearly successful.”

              “President Erdoğan himself was at the resort of Marmaris, but had left the residence where he was staying some 20 minutes before coup plotters attacked it. Around 25 soldiers in helicopters descended on a hotel there on ropes, shooting, in an apparent attempt to seize him just after Erdoğan had left, broadcaster CNN Turk said.”

              and bits were they were successful:
              “The top counter-terrorism official responsible for Turkey’s campaign against Islamic State did go to a “meeting” at the presidential palace in Ankara. He was later found with his hands tied behind his back, shot in the neck, according to a senior official.”

              • Colonial Viper

                What would “eye witness accounts” know about how well put together the coup was?

                The coup plotters:

                1) Were unable to lock down the capital under martial law.
                2) Allowed major broadcasters to keep broadcasting for at least an hour even after the coup was launched.
                3) Allowed the internet and social media to keep operating throughout the night.
                4) Did not isolate (or have on board) Erdogan’s centres of power including his cabinet, his police headquarters, his intelligence service head quarters.
                5) Had no one to front the coup to communicate with the public.
                6) Failed to shoot down Erdogan’s plane which was in the air for much of the night and even had its civilian location transponder on.
                7) Was only able to mobilise only a tiny fraction of Turkey’s several hundred thousand strong army.

                How do your eyewitness accounts match to these facts?

                • Bastables

                  There are several successful coups which did not “lock down” the capital, Suharto’s attempt in Jakarta merely relied on having sized the centre monuments with Kostrad and Kopassus units and taking over a single radio station. The ARVN coup of 1963 seems to have similarities to the recent Turkish one in that conspirators held “security” meetings briefings where loyalist officers were taken into custody under false pretenses. If as in the case of the recent Turkish coup officers/ministers did not turn up to the meetings loyalist forces would not have been paralysed by lack of leadership. The guardian story quite clearly shows how things shifted in Turkey as loyalist members of the government/police/army failed to be arrested/assassinated unlike the ARVN 1963 coup.

                  The ARVN coup of 1963 much like Suharto’s “counter” coup relied on early successes with various factions and individuals falling inline, the former in a drawn out process of labeling persons communist and purging them.

                  Failing to shoot down Erdogan’s plane or eliminating him earlier in the hotel helo raid indicate issues poor execution and/or lack of luck as opposed to “highly disorganised”. Failure is not the same as “highly disorganised”.

                  The ARVN rebel pre-taped coup declaration radio message did not begin till 1630hr, 6+hrs from it’s recording. Suharto did not declare his “counter” coup till 2100hr on his day. Both relied on sizing just the national radio stations and both only made their public declarations after they were certain of their success.

                  The Internet (including social media) is a new ingredient, and may have been the thing that really turned the tide, including a hilarious medieval throw back call to prayers from Mosques as a result. I don’t see how anyone can shut these things down never mind by small sections of coup plotters operating in secrecy until a decisive day? Cut all power? Explode a nuclear weapon to emp every piece of electronic equipment including your own? Have sections or detachments tasked with destroy/incapacitate every transmitter in the AO? Have a entire regimental sized signals unit tasked with jamming every frequency and no one noticing you vetting every single cross attachment to your oversized Electronic warfare regiment with it’s equipment and power needs, while hoping loyalist units do not jump onto your own clear frequencies and then jam your units while trying to transmit themselves?

                  Read the guardian story, and remember to keep in mind that the chaos of a army in action even in a coup does not denote “unusually disorganized” especially when it fails in it’s objectives, as any reading of successful coups tend to highlight mistakes and missed chances even on the “winning” side.

                  Most coups do not mobilize more than a tiny fraction of their larger militaries . . . as they tend to be factional in nature and rely on secrecy of a coterie to avoid exposure.

                  Your facts are not historically rooted, nor seems to draw on any experience of Military conduct/capabilities or even reading the guardian story.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 16.1.1.2

          As you rightly point out, rt must have access to Turkish diplomatic communiques

          🙄

  17. Bastables 17

    It might be a good idea to include actual Turkish media reports such as http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/anatomy-of-a-failed-coup-attempt.aspx?PageID=238&NID=101705&NewsCatID=409

  18. Paul 18

    Why start a coup at 9.30 p.m on a Friday night?

  19. XU100 BIST NATIONAL 100 78664 -4161.71 -5.13 -3.27 Jul/18
    Meanwhile back at the Turkish stock exchange as at 12:56 pm Monday. down 5.13? with a yearly average down of 3.27? what ever all that means?

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    For the past week, Extinction Rebellion has been peacefully protesting in London to demand action on climate change. The British government's response? Ban their protests:Police have banned Extinction Rebellion protests from continuing anywhere in London, as they moved in almost without warning to clear protesters who remained at the movement’s ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Collins crushes climate
    An essay by Judith Collins MP reported on Carbon News yesterday seems to show an alarming shift in attitude within the National Party. Collins argues against the Zero Carbon Bill, the Paris Agreement, and downplays the magnitude of climate impacts. The Paris Agreement was adopted in December 2015 and ratified ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    6 days ago
  • More disappointment
    When they were running for election, Labour promised to overhaul the Employment Relations Act and introduce fair pay agreements to set basic pay and conditions on an industry level, preventing bad employers from undercutting good ones. They followed this up by establishing a working group, which reported back in January ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • What do these mother-child studies really say about fluoridation?
    A list of indicators of bad science – many of these are found in articles promoted by anti-fluoride activists. Anti-fluoride activists have been pouring money into a scaremongering campaign warning pregnant women not to drink fluoridated water. They claim fluoride will lower the IQ of their future child. Fluoride ...
    7 days ago
  • Losing Labour’s Mills-Tone.
    Nothing Left To Say: Labour's pollster, Stephen Mills, remains swaddled-up in the comforting myths of the 1980s. As if the experience of Roger Douglas’s genuinely radical post-Muldoon policy agenda was literally a once-in-a-lifetime thing – as much as the party could possibly absorb for at least the next 50 years.MEMO ...
    7 days ago
  • Speaker: Disability and the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse
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    7 days ago
  • Spain is not a democracy
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • UK Conservatives hate democracy
    With an unfair voting system, uneven electorates and an un-elected upper house, the UK's "democracy" is barely worthy of the name. But now the government wants to make it worse:The government has been accused of suppressing voters’ rights with the potential disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of people after plans ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • What is wrong with our building industry?
    Back in the 90's and early 2000's, the building industry was building leaky homes which should never have been granted consent. Now it turns out they've been building dodgy office blocks as well:New imaging technology has revealed hundreds of major buildings nationwide have defective or missing concrete or reinforcing steel. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Local bodies
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • A future of government
      How could government evolve over the next decades? Reports of democracy’s imminent demise are greatly exaggerated.  However, satisfaction with political systems in many countries is low, so there is much to do for governments of all political stripes to improve relevance and trust. Digital technologies are seen as one ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Catalonia, interrupted
    Two years have now gone by since the Friday afternoon when my university-student son and I headed out of our Barcelona flat to a nearby primary school, designated as a polling station for the vote that was to be held the following Sunday: the referendum on Catalonia’s independence from Spain ...
    1 week ago
  • Sage Decisions Unwisely Over-Ruled.
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    1 week ago
  • Government may ban voting in effort to get more people to do it
    More than double the number of people who will vote in this year’s local body elections have tried marijuana or urinated somewhere they shouldn’t have. As local elections look set for the lowest turnout in decades, with many regions falling well short of 40%, the Government is exploring a number ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Woman: Deleted.
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The Hollowest of Men Ride Again… SURPRISE!
    Musings continue apace about “the experienced businessman!” soon to be taking up a National Party MP position. Or to be more accurate, being parachuted into a seat to shut down their former MP Jamie-Lee Ross, who despite his own shortcomings shed at least some more light on the inner workings ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    1 week ago
  • Barbaric
    The Ugandan government wants to murder gay people:Uganda has announced plans to impose the death penalty on homosexuals. The bill, colloquially known as “Kill the Gays” in Uganda, was nullified five years ago on a technicality, but the government said on Thursday it plans to resurrect it within weeks. The ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Is this study legit? 5 questions to ask when reading news stories of medical research
    Hassan Vally, La Trobe University Who doesn’t want to know if drinking that second or third cup of coffee a day will improve your memory, or if sleeping too much increases your risk of a heart attack? We’re invested in staying healthy and many of us are interested in reading ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • Fighting Monsters.
    Freedom Of Speech? The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Nazi Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. According to the logic of the ...
    2 weeks ago
  • The next wave of kaupapa Māori politics: its constitutional, it must be.
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    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    2 weeks ago
  • Night lights of NZ from orbit
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    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    2 weeks ago
  • Reporters deliver uplifting news to fleeing Japanese residents: they won’t miss any rugby
    New Zealand’s media is doing its part in Japan, reassuring those in the path of the storm that they won’t miss any rugby while away from their flooded homes. New Zealand sports reporters stationed in Japan for the Rugby World Cup have had the rare and heartwarming opportunity to inform ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Government in contentious discussions about whether to put surplus on red or black
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones is the only Cabinet member in favour of putting it all on green. As Finance Minister Grant Robertson finds himself with an enormous $7.5 billion surplus, the Government has begun intense, at times contentious conversations about whether to put the money on red or black at ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Jordanian teachers’ successful strike has lessons for here
    by Susanne Kemp At the start of September close to 100,000 school teachers went on strike in Jordan.  They demanded a 50% pay rise.  A pay rise actually agreed to by the regime back in 2014. In early October, however, in the face of government repression and threats, the teachers’ ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Why some people still think climate change isn’t real
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz Why do people still think climate change isn’t real? David ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • The SIS unlawfully spied on Nicky Hager
    Back in 2011, journalist Nicky Hager published Other People's Wars, an expose on NZDF's activities over the previous decade of the "war on terror". NZDF didn't like this, and especially didn't like the fact that it was base don leaks from their own. So, they had the SIS investigate him ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • October 2019 – Newsletter
    https://mailchi.mp/7d9133add053/closing-the-gap-october-2019-newsletter ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • And they wonder why we think they’re environmental vandals…
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: Paying the price in California
    Last year, California burned. This year, to stop it happening again (or rather, to stop themselves from being found liable if it happens again), Pacific Gas and Electric is cutting power to half the state for a week:Schools are closed. Traffic lights down. Tunnels dark. Businesses unopened. Hospitals running on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Let’s Hear It For Up-Close-And-Personal, Hard-Copy Democracy!
    The Best Way: Missing from the on-line voting debate is any reference to the voting system that produces turn-out figures ranging from 77 to 93 percent of registered voters. The voting system used to collect and count the votes cast in our parliamentary elections. The system that involves citizens making ...
    2 weeks ago
  • 10/10: World Day Against the Death Penalty
    Today, October 10, is the world day against the death penalty. Out of 195 UN member states, 84 still permit capital punishment. Today is the day we work to change that. This year's theme is children. Having a parent sentenced to death or executed causes long-term trauma and stigmatization which ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Talking Freer Lives: a Marxist gender-critical perspective from Australia
    Among the great new bunch of political friends we have been making recently is the excellent Australian-based Marxist gender-critical site, Freer Lives.  So we asked the comrade who set up that blog to write something for Redline on the blog, himself, his analysis of the rise of gender politics and ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Government spin accepted by union leadership
    by Don Franks  The Auckland City Mission is struggling with a 40 percent increase in demand for food parcels this year. A total of 23,020 were needed by June. Last month Missioner Chris Farrelly told the Herald the “cupboards are bare” and without an emergency food drive, he can’t see ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Forbidden Thoughts
    by The Council of Disobedient Women   Massey Wellington Student Association had a sit-in today. Imagine a sit-in. On a campus. Against a women’s rights meeting. Did the ’60s really happen or did we fucking dream it? They gathered in the student square, an echo chamber. Sitting on soft pillows ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Much love to my loyal Ukrainian readership
    For some reasons, my post about the mystery message from inside the Downing Street bunker seemed to catch people's attention.  Quite a lot of hits from NZ (unsurprisingly) and the USA (a bit more puzzlingly, but hi there, USAians!!) and 76 views from the Ukraine.I've celebrated my Ukrainian readers in ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Another day of bonkers GNUmours (again, sorry)
    First, almost a score of Labour MPs seem to have sent a letter to the EU basically begging them to accept a deal - any deal - just so Britain can get the Heck on with Brexiting instead of being trapped in limbo:
    To avoid no deal, deliver on the ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour vs working class immigrants – again!
    by Phil Duncan In 2016 the National-led government suspended the Parent Visa Category, through which migrants were able to bring their parents into New Zealand.  Since then over 5,700 people have been in immigration limbo, stuck on the visa wait list. Labour is now bringing back the scheme.  Well, sort ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Speak Up for Women press statement: on Massey University and Feminism 2020
    The following was released yesterday (Tues, October 8) by the women’s liberation organisation Speak Up for Women. On 23 September Speak Up For Women announced that we would be holding an event at the Massey University Theaterette in Wellington. The event is called Feminism 2020. The intention of the event ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Farmers support dirty rivers
    The government is currently consulting on plans to improve freshwater quality. So naturally, farmers oppose it:South Taranaki farmers are preparing to fight proposed national freshwater changes that some fear will bankrupt them. The Government's proposed National Environment Standard on Freshwater Management, released in September, rated the Waingongoro River as one ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • No-one cares about local government
    Yesterday was the last day for (reliably) posting your vote away in local body elections. Turnouts are mostly much lower than the equivalent time last year (Palmerston North is down 2.3%), and so naturally people are pushing their online-voting snake oil again. Because the online census worked so well, lets ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

  • Pacific Peoples Minister to attend Our Ocean Conference in Norway
    Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio, heads to Oslo today to represent New Zealand at the sixth Our Ocean Conference, which is being hosted by the Norwegian Government from the 23-24 October. “The Our Ocean Conference mobilises real action on issues like marine plastic pollution and the impacts of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • Government announces 27 percent increase in Trades Academy places
    Two secondary-school initiatives are being expanded as part of the Government’s plan to see more young New Zealanders take up a trade to help close the skills gap.   This includes the largest single increase in Trades Academy places in recent years. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Education Minister Chris ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Methane reducing cattle feed one step closer
    The Government today announced its support for a project that could substantially reduce agricultural greenhouse gas emissions from cattle. The announcement was made as part of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s and Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor’s visit to Nelson’s Cawthron Aquaculture Park. The Cawthron Institute will receive $100,000 from the Government’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Bill to refresh superannuation system passes first reading
    Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni has welcomed the first reading of the New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension Legislation Amendment Bill. “Every New Zealander has a stake in New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension,” says Carmel Sepuloni. “They are our most common form of social assistance – nearly 800,000 New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government announces next steps in fight against measles
    Babies in Auckland aged six months and over can receive a free vaccination and children will all have access to vaccines, Associate Minister of Health Julie Anne Genter announced today at Papatoetoe High School.   The move comes as part of Government efforts to step up the fight against measles. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Pacific Futures: Connections, Identity...
    ***Check against delivery*** Good morning. It is a pleasure to be here, and to have the honour of opening this important conference on behalf of the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. Let us take the opportunity to acknowledge all the people who have helped make today possible, including our special ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Police trial new response to high risk events
    Police Minister Stuart Nash says the safety of frontline officers and members of the public will be the focus of a new trial of specialist Police response teams in three of our largest urban centres. Police have this morning released details of an initiative to be trialled in Counties Manukau, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
    The Minister of Fisheries is calling for entries for a new public award to celebrate innovation in our seafood sector. “I have established the Seafood Sustainability Awards to recognise and celebrate those throughout industry, tangata whenua and communities who demonstrate outstanding dedication and innovation towards the sustainability of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • More progress for women and we can do more
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter welcomes leaders in the private sector taking action on closing their gender pay gaps to ensure a fairer workplace for all New Zealanders. Ms Genter today launched a new report, Addressing the gender pay gap and driving women’s representation in senior leadership, from the Champions for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
    Government Ministers today welcomed the release of a marine environment report highlighting the four key issues affecting our oceans, estuaries and coastlines.  The release underlines the importance of government proposals to combat climate pollution, ensure clean freshwater, protect biodiversity, make land use more sustainable, and reduce waste and plastic.    Environment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
    The Government has approved funding for a new acute mental health facility for Waikato which will provide better care and support to people with mental health and addiction issues. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Dr David Clark announced the $100 million project to replace the aging Henry Rongomau ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
    The Government is making progress on its goal to integrate te reo Māori into education by 2025, with over 500 teachers and support staff already graduating from Te Ahu o te Reo Māori,  Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Kelvin Davis made the announcement at an awards ceremony in Waikanae today, for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
    Statistics Minister James Shaw has welcomed the first release of 2018 Census data. The first release of data today, 23 September, includes key data on population, regional growth, the number of homes and the size of different ethnic groups in New Zealand. Data from the 2018 Census will support the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
    Minister for Statistics James Shaw today announced a public consultation on a proposed algorithm charter for government agencies. The charter has been developed by the Government Chief Data Steward in response to growing calls for more transparency in government use of data. Computer algorithms – procedures or formulas for solving ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, Climate Change Minister James Shaw and visiting Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte co-hosted a business roundtable in Auckland this morning focused on working together to address climate change.  “The Netherlands is an important partner for New Zealand. We share a strong agricultural history. Sustainable agribusiness and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
    The Government is taking action to build an inclusive economy where more of us receive our fair share at work and businesses can compete on great products and services, not undercutting wages and conditions, Immigration and Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. Two consultations launched today seek feedback ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
    The future for New Zealand’s threatened indigenous freshwater fish looks brighter with the passing of the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Bill in Parliament today said Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “Until now, our freshwater fish legislation has been 20 years out of date. We have lacked effective tools to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
    At 1.30pm tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of Kiwis will join about 65 million people around the globe in ShakeOut, the world’s biggest earthquake drill. The annual drill is to remind people of the right action to take during an earthquake which is to Drop, Cover, Hold, and to practise their ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
    Kiwis are benefiting from higher wage growth and low inflation under the Coalition Government. Stats NZ data out today shows the rise in the cost of living remains low, as annual Consumers Price Index (CPI) inflation fell to 1.5% in September from 1.7% in June. “The low inflation comes as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
    New Zealand’s economic strength and resilience has been recognised in a major update on the state of the global economy. The IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook released overnight shows a reduced global growth forecast over the next two years as issues like the US-China trade war and Brexit take hold. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
    Justice Minister Andrew Little has today introduced a new Bill to prevent terrorism and support the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill gives the New Zealand Police the ability to apply to the High Court to impose control orders on New Zealanders who ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
    A Bill that proposes targeted changes to simplify the processes for Māori land owners when engaging with the Māori Land Court has had its First Reading today. “The approach taken by the Government is to ensure that the protection of Māori land remains a priority as we seek to improve ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
    Let me first thank all the new unionists and members in the room. There is nothing more important to improving people’s working lives than people making the decision to care, to get on board and help, to take up the reins and get involved. Congratulations to you. You bring the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
    Minister of Defence Ron Mark has signed a certificate exempting the activity of engine testing at Whenuapai Airbase from the Resource Management Act 1991. The Act gives the Minister of Defence the power to exempt activities for the purposes of national security.  The certificate will mean the recent Environment Court ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson has announced New Zealand will join the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action while attending APEC meetings in Chile. The objective of the 39 member Coalition is to share information and promote action to tackle climate change. It was formed in April this year, in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Lyttelton Parking
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Hagley Oval
    Hon Minister Poto Williams Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration   MEDIA STATEMENT       Tuesday 15 October 2019 Feedback sought – Hagley Oval The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Poto Williams, is seeking feedback on a proposal about Hagley Oval. The proposal was developed by Regenerate Christchurch ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • CTU speech – DPM
    Ladies and gentlemen, NZCTU President Richard Wagstaff, members of respective unions – thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This might be preaching to the choir, but the importance of trade unions in New Zealand’s historical arch is difficult to understate. And it is my belief that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
    "Let’s start by acknowledging that it has been a huge year. " Police Association Annual Conference James Cook Grand Chancellor Hotel Wellington Nau mai, haere mai. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, ka nui te mihi, ki a koutou katoa. President of the Police Association, Chris Cahill; Members of the Association and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark have announced the New Zealand Government’s decision to again deploy a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea. New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • New Zealand deeply concerned at developments in north-east Syria
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand continues to have serious concerns for peace and stability in north-east Syria. “Recent reports that hundreds of ISIS-affiliated families have fled from a camp are deeply concerning from a humanitarian and security perspective”, Mr Peters says. “While we acknowledge Turkey’s domestic security ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Government on high alert for stink bugs
    Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor is warning travelling Kiwis to be vigilant as the high-season for the crop-eating brown marmorated stink bug (BMSB) is under way. “We’re on high alert to stop BMSB arriving in NZ. The high season runs until April 30 and we’ve strengthened our measures to stop stink ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Better protections for students in halls of residence
    The Government is moving swiftly to change the law to improve the welfare and pastoral care of students living in university halls of residence and other tertiary hostels. Cabinet has agreed to several changes, including creating a new mandatory Code of Practice that sets out the duty of pastoral care ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New trapping guide for community and expert trappers alike
    The Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage has launched a new comprehensive trapping guide for community trappers to help them protect our native birds, plants and other wildlife, at Zealandia in Wellington today. ‘A practical guide to trapping’, has been developed by the Department of Conservation (DOC), and was launched during ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Widening Access to Contraceptives Welcomed
    Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter welcomes PHARMAC’s move to improve access to long-acting reversible contraception (LARCs). PHARMAC has today announced it will fund the full cost of Mirena and Jaydess for anyone seeking long term contraception, lifting previous restrictions on access to Mirena. “I welcome women having greater choices ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Major upgrade for Taranaki Base Hospital
    The Government has approved the next stage of a major redevelopment of Taranaki Base Hospital, which will deliver new and improved facilities for patients. Health Minister Dr David Clark has announced details of a $300 million dollar project to build a new East Wing at the New Plymouth hospital. It ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Extra support for rural families
    Extra funding will allow Rural Support Trusts to help farming families, says Minister for Rural Communities and Agriculture Damien O’Connor. “I know that rural families are worried about some of the challenges facing them, including the ongoing uncertainty created by the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak. “Those concerns sit alongside ongoing worries ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Howard Leaque Beekeeper programme graduation
    Thank you for the opportunity to be here to present certificates to the 16 graduates who have completed a beekeeping course delivered by the Howard League.  Let us start by acknowledging Auckland Prison’s Deputy Prison Director Tom Sherlock, and Acting Assistant Regional Commissioner of Corrections Northern Region Scott Walker - ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Finance Minister to attend APEC meetings
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson leaves this weekend to attend the APEC Finance Ministers meeting in Santiago, Chile. Discussions between APEC Finance Ministers at the meeting will include the effects of the current global economic uncertainty, risks for APEC economies and sustainable development of the region. While at APEC Grant Robertson ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Pacific languages are a source of strength, they ground us and build confidence
    The Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says for Pacific people, language can be a source of strength. It can help ground us and give us confidence. When we speak them, our languages provide us with an immediate and intimate access to our identity and our story - and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago