“Moment of Truth” – a key claim

Written By: - Date published: 7:14 am, September 15th, 2014 - 152 comments
Categories: accountability, defence, election 2014, john key, Spying - Tags: , , , , ,

Tonight Kim Dotcom and Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Glenn Greenwald will reveal (among other things) the details of the Snowden leak documents relating to NZ’s involvement in electronic spying. The advance claim is that there has been large scale surveillance of Kiwis. Key denies it, and has staked his resignation on it. He claims that plans were made, but never implemented. That was the state of play yesterday morning.

In this context, this piece by Steve Braunias late yesterday is absolutely fascinating. Please go and read the whole thing. Here’s a couple of brief extracts:

They did a lot more than just look at it. This was much more than a mere proposal or a mere idea. It was something that was adopted and embraced at the highest levels of the New Zealand government, and affirmatively implemented.

No, because – I mean – even if they radically changed their minds and undid everything they did, that will never change the fact they implemented a programme of mass surveillance at exactly the same time they were publicly denying it.

It’s certainly possible that at the last minute the Prime Minister or somebody else said, ‘You know what, we’ve changed our minds, let’s undo all of the steps we’ve taken to implement these systems.’ But there’s certainly nothing in the NSA archives to suggest that anything like that ever happened.

If, at the very last minute, they changed their minds suddenly, and undid everything they did, and took out the equipment that enables access to the south seas cables that New Zealanders use to communicate with the world, then I suppose one could describe that statement as highly misleading but not actually a lie.

That’s a key claim. If the “Moment of Truth” reveal proves that equipment was installed on undersea cables then surveillance plans went well beyond a “business case”, and in to the realm of implementation.

Update: 7:20am. Greenwald is on Morning Report discussing this claim – “Phase 1”. Prior to that Key’s interview was extraordinary. Questioned on the public’s rights to know, he framed everything and justified his decision to release classified documents as a matter of protecting his personal reputation. It was just as the interview concluded – might get a transcript up later on, or someone could in comments. Ahh – RNZ has a piece up.

152 comments on ““Moment of Truth” – a key claim ”

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  1. Lanthanide 1
    15 September 2014 at 7:22 am

    Glen Greenwald on radio right now, saying the plan was implemented – phase one went live, which accessed the undersea cables. They were waiting until the GCSB law was passed before phase two went live, which was the harvesting of meta data.

    He also says they have evidence that meta data has been harvested on a mass scale and handed to the NSA.

    So looks like we just have to see how Key will twist and spin this one.

    • Rich 1.1
      15 September 2014 at 7:41 am

      And the fact that they’re worried about NZ proves that this is not about what happened 13 years ago, in fact the only connection to that event now are the draconian laws that followed. It’s about tyranny.

    • Tracey 1.2
      15 September 2014 at 7:50 am

      That Key felt the need to begin twisting and spinning from Saturday and is going to declassify secret and security classified documents to “clear his name” suggests. or ought to suggest, to many that this man cannot be head of the SIS and GCSB because he doesn’t understand their role. It is not a department of dirty secrets for use by the CEO to stop anyone challenging his job and getting tot he Board to get him dismissed…

      He claims to have delegated inconvenient stuff, like an OIA request that could only be positively acted upon if a classified document was de-classified but now he claims to have full knowledge of the non mass surveillance of kiwis which he denied.

      Of interest, to me anyway, was a poll of people’s views of whether the Dirty Politics revelations had changed who they would vote for. About 14% said it had. That is a very high number, imo, in the face of the kind of obfuscation, misleading, spinning and lying being done by those who want the PM to remain in power.

      • cogito 1.2.1
        15 September 2014 at 11:24 am

        Key will dance on a pinhead. He has no honour, no integrity, no respect for the truth and no respect for NZers.

        The scenario seems to be that Key will wave around a document that will supposedly show that he put a halt to all the stuff that was being done under his own watch, and that this will clear him. It won’t, but there will be plenty of kiwi sheeple who will lap it up.

    • infused 1.3
      15 September 2014 at 8:53 am

      Look forward to some evidence.

      • wtl 1.3.1
        15 September 2014 at 9:40 am

        So do I. And I hope you and other people on Key’s side of the political spectrum take a serious look at the evidence, rather than just dismissing it out of hand (like Gosman is doing below).

      • Naki man 1.3.2
        15 September 2014 at 5:45 pm

        Don’t hold your breath

    • seeker 1.4
      15 September 2014 at 10:36 am

      “So looks like we just have to see how Key will twist and spin this one.” Maybe like this…..

      PM John Key grilled on Fletcher’s GCSB appointment
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics-videos/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503464&gal_cid=1503464&gallery_id=131968

      Key says Rennie put forward Fletcher’s name @ 40 secs but changes his story @1.46 in, and Very Unusually was actually queried on it by a journalist @ 1.55 and repeats truth or lie @2.05mins. Only video I’ve seen and still able to access that shows him lying.

      • Tracey 1.4.1
        15 September 2014 at 10:42 am

        and the investigation subsequently showed Key asked Rennie if he (Rennie) wanted Key to contact Fletcher…

        people say they want evidence but when they have it they justify it away so they can hold onto their belief

        • seeker 1.4.1.1
          15 September 2014 at 11:08 am

          Exactly Tracey .That is why I keep posting this to try and dispel false beliefs, but I am usually too late in the day as I have to borrow a computer. Today, of all days I have one early enough for my comment to be up all day and have max. exposure.
          Will post on Open mike too.

          • Tracey 1.4.1.1.1
            15 September 2014 at 11:16 am

            Good on ya Seeker. It makes a nonsense of the wailing for “proof”.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 1.4.1.1.1.1
              15 September 2014 at 2:49 pm

              Same happened with the story about ‘David Beckham thick as batshit’ , when Key spoke to a group of Dunedin schoolkids.

              Key later denied saying it.
              “Under questioning about the comment from Winston Peters in Parliament today, Key warned the NZ First leader he was making an assumption he shouldn’t make.
              “Categorically I did not say that,” he said.
              http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7918471/Key-denies-bats-t-Beckham-call

              Doesnt matter whether is a throwaway line or a major event. He will blatantly lie if it comes back to bite him.

  2. Gosman 2
    15 September 2014 at 7:32 am

    It is clear this is no smoking gun so in terms of political significance is unlikely to make much difference.

    • Tracey 2.1
      15 September 2014 at 7:38 am

      Just another day and another lie from the Prime Minister, nothing wrong headed about that aye Gosman…

      Oh that’s right,. Key denies it. It must be ok then.

      That it takes leaked documents from the USA to shine some light on key’s “mis-speaking” ought to be of concern to many intending to give him their vote to take them in the direction they believe he has promised them. But not for you, our self proclaimed champion of correcting wrong headed thinking everywhere.

      Mirror mirror on the wall Gosman is the biggest fool of all…

      • Gosman 2.1.1
        15 September 2014 at 7:43 am

        People who are likely to be swayed by such things already have been bombarded with similar allegations. This new one is unlikely to make much difference in that regard. You are either indifferent to them or you think Key is a lying b@stard that deserves to be strung up. Nothing has shifted in that equation.

        • Tracey 2.1.1.1
          15 September 2014 at 8:00 am

          You may wish that were true but changing a belief is a sliding scale, some take less to move from a belief than others.

          That you constantly choose to focus on an unsubstantiated view that people don’t care, or it doesnt matter cos A, B, or C doesnt make it factual.

          If you are using polls as your guide as to who has or hasn’t given a shit, then 14% saying they have changed their vote because of this is of some import.

          I don’t usually engage with you because of your pseudo socratic style. I say pseudo because I don’t want to insult Socrates. You ask everyone to substantiate their claims even when clearly opinion but post your stuff without any such substantiation.

          You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but cos you wrote it doesn’t make your opinion any more a fact than mine or anyone else’s.

          How about applying your intellectual drive to undo wrong heading thinking to our PM’s utterings over the last years, since, say, 2007…

          That is, IF you care about wrong headed thinking or that is just a phrase to cvoer “Gosman thinks/believes the following and any one who disagrees is therefore wrong headed int heir thinking.|

          FOG thinking

          • Gosman 2.1.1.1.1
            15 September 2014 at 9:13 am

            The difference between myself expressing an opinion and others who do so that I ask for evidence is that I try and moderate my views by prefacing them with ‘I believe’ or that something is ‘Probably’ correct. In other words it is not stated as a fact but I am willing to argue the point. This is as opposed to people making bold statements of fact such as this must have occurred or taking an opinion as if it was a commonly known and as such beyond questioning.

            • Tracey 2.1.1.1.1.1
              15 September 2014 at 9:21 am

              yes, you are the only reasoned person here Gosman, always posting facts unless you are stating you believe…

              Like here

              “People who are likely to be swayed by such things already have been bombarded with similar allegations”…

              oops, nope no “I believe” or “probably”, so that was you asserting a fact without substantiation…

              or maybe you probably meant this

              “It is clear this is no smoking gun so in terms of political significance is unlikely to make much difference.”

              Nope, no “I believe” or “probably” and no evidential foundation…. either

              That’s just in this thread

              FOG!

              PS Have you been purged from keepingstock Gosman?

              • Gosman …
                15 September 2014 at 12:12 pm

                You disagree that voters have not already had similar type allegations about John Key bandied about already do you?

                Mike Williams and Matthew Hooton on Radio NZ National would tend to disagree with you on that.

    • Psycho Milt 2.2
      15 September 2014 at 7:39 am

      Key has already provided at least one smoking gun, as pointed out by Danyl:

      “When the GCSB put their case for mass-surveillance to Cabinet and Cabinet authorised them to go ahead, they were authorising the GCSB to break the law because at that time spying on New Zealanders without a warrant was illegal.”

      I expect by this time tomorrow Key will be quibbling about definitions of “mass surveillance” and whether it includes gathering of metadata.

      • Gosman 2.2.1
        15 September 2014 at 7:48 am

        That is hardly a smoking gun. Given this is a matter of interpretation over what the GCSB was planning on doing it leaves plenty of room for debate from both sides. That is not a gotcha moment no matter how you would like it to be. A gotcha moment would have been a piece of communication from an intelligence agency describing briefing the PM on the Kim Dotcom raid weeks before it happened. That would have been very difficult to counter and thus was what people were expecting out of this.

        • politikiwi 2.2.1.1
          15 September 2014 at 8:01 am

          The GCSB mass surveillance issue is only one part of what will be discussed tonight, remember.

          Perhaps Key et al are focusing on that angle because it’s the most defensible of the lot?

          • Gosman 2.2.1.1.1
            15 September 2014 at 8:08 am

            Quite possibly correct however the way this is being approached by the Kim Dotcom camp suggests that there won’t be anything more substantive than this.

            • politikiwi 2.2.1.1.1.1
              15 September 2014 at 12:34 pm

              If the documents show that:
              — Cabinet was presented with a proposal for mass-harvesting of NZ metadata by the GCSB
              — Cabinet approved the proposal
              — Work began to implement the necessary infrastructure (for what would have been illegal at the time)
              — The GCSB law change in 2013 was written specifically so they could “flick the switch” on the metadata monitoring
              …then that’s damning, regardless of whether the programme actually got implemented to the final phase.

              The fact Cabinet would approve these measures, and that FJK did not come clean about them either at the time the proposal was tabled in Cabinet or the time the GCSB law debate was had, says it all: If it doesn’t prove Key outright lied, then he will at least be guilty of being economical with the truth and of hiding the intention to enable mass surveillance on New Zealanders.

              Nothing to fear nothing to hide, so why hide it? Good question.

        • Tracey 2.2.1.2
          15 September 2014 at 8:02 am

          Oh I feel confidant that had such a document been presented you would be here telliing us all why it wasn’t a smoking gun. I base that on observing your past behaviour as a guide to your future performance.

          • Gosman 2.2.1.2.1
            15 September 2014 at 8:20 am

            You are quite wrong. I have criticised decisions made by John Key and National on numerous occasions and are no fan of the GCSB bill as I see little point in it.

            • Tracey 2.2.1.2.1.1
              15 September 2014 at 8:40 am

              Well, until such a document were revealed we will never actually know which of us were right or wrong on that

        • Psycho Milt 2.2.1.3
          15 September 2014 at 8:47 am

          That is not a gotcha moment no matter how you would like it to be.

          “Gotcha” moments are bullshit. They’re stuff like “Cunliffe forgot signing this form letter 11 years ago!” They may excite 3News reporters but they should be in the so-the-fuck-what category for everyone else. This is about whether or not there’s evidence of illegal activity by the government and an attempt to conceal it, which would be a hell of a lot more than a “gotcha” moment.

          As to how debatable it’s going to be: if Greenwald’s come over here because he has documentation that the government contemplated mass surveillance, he needn’t have bothered. But if he has documentation that the government accepted a business case for mass surveillance and later changed its mind, that’s illegal activity and a cover-up. And if he has documentation actually carried out mass surveillance before the GCSB bill was passed, Key needs to be getting his collar felt by uniformed police officers.

        • Lanthanide 2.2.1.4
          15 September 2014 at 9:13 am

          “That would have been very difficult to counter and thus was what people were expecting out of this.”

          Kim Dotcom is speaking last at the presentation, where he will present his “very simple and clear evidence” that Key knew of him before the raid. So just hold on a little bit longer.

        • Tom Jackson 2.2.1.5
          15 September 2014 at 11:05 am

          Actually, no.

          They tapped the undersea cables, and Snowden himself dealt with metadata about NZ citizens collected from the GCSB.

          Even if you don’t believe Snowden, you would have to believe that Key would agree to the tapping of the cable without agreeing to the collection of NZers metadata. That’s just not credible at all, particularly since it would involve Key saying “no” to the US and wasting American time and money on the tap just because he got cold feet.

          Are you fucking telling me that Obama would still be playing golf with Key if he had done that? Excuse me while I ride my unicorn to the great chocolate waterfall.

          Lay off the pipe.

      • hoom 2.2.2
        15 September 2014 at 11:25 am

        I expect by this time tomorrow Key will be quibbling about definitions of “mass surveillance” and whether it includes gathering of metadata.

        Oh that mass surveillance, nah its just another Left wing beatup conspiracy theory smear campaign.
        Look at the end of the day that mass surveillance is done by the SIS not GCSB so there is nothing to worry about.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.3
      15 September 2014 at 8:40 am

      Evidence will be presented that the NSA has already been collecting metadata from NZ, Gosman.

      Whether it’s a smoking gun or not, the answer at this point will depend upon tribal loyalty. That said, Key’s public statements change daily. Greenwald’s do not, and rust never sleeps.

      The best thing National can do is spend some time in opposition to reflect on their use of “new media” and their attitudes around the personal freedoms of speech and assembly.

    • wtl 2.4
      15 September 2014 at 9:48 am

      That’s pretty much a straw man argument. Why does the revelation from Greenwald have to be a “smoking gun” to be taken seriously?

      Consider, for example, that the police are still capable of solving murders even when they don’t (literally or figuratively) find a smoking gun. In many cases, the incremental accumulation of evidence in support of an theory is as good as (if not better) than finding a single piece of evidence that acts as a “smoking gun”.

  3. Tigger 3
    15 September 2014 at 7:43 am

    ‘But Labour did it too!’

    Which puppet will get to deliver this distraction?

    Farrar I guess given recent history.

  4. Craig Glen Eden 4
    15 September 2014 at 7:43 am

    How is it on planet Key Gosman white is the new black from the sounds of things. Have you bumped into Jason Eade, say hi to him for all of us aye we miss him so much. Many of us in New Zuuland would love for him to talk with us.

    Jason Eade the invisible man we all see right through.

    • vto 4.1
      15 September 2014 at 7:56 am

      yes it was telling that gosman disappeared for so long when “dirty politics” came out

      • RedBaronCV 4.1.1
        15 September 2014 at 8:01 am

        Yep and the other RW trolls. Must have had to set up a new base campp. Guess they’ve now been let off shredding duties?

      • Tracey 4.1.2
        15 September 2014 at 8:02 am

        was he banned though?

      • Gosman 4.1.3
        15 September 2014 at 8:31 am

        I think you will find I had stopped making comments before the Dirty Politics story broke. Some of us do have other priorities than commentating on blogs.

        • framu 4.1.3.1
          15 September 2014 at 9:02 am

          funny that all of you had other priorities all at the same time

          its also funny your doing OT on this thread

          • Gosman 4.1.3.1.1
            15 September 2014 at 12:15 pm

            You will have to speak to those others as i have no idea why they weren’t posting. As stated I stopped posting here before the book came out due to other commitments.

        • Tom Jackson 4.1.3.2
          15 September 2014 at 9:12 am

          World of Warcraft isn’t a priority.

        • Tracey 4.1.3.3
          15 September 2014 at 11:00 am

          Not quite right Gosman

          You posted quite a lot before the book launch on 11, 12 and 13 August 2014 and after, at least until 15 August 2014. THEN you seem to have gone on holiday/took a break until 27 August 2014 … and again until <b. 5 September 2014 ….

          Nothing wrong with that of course, just it’s not accurate to say you “stopped making comments before the Dirty Politics story broke…” is it?

          Gosman: Comment:But the door was open…
          Date published: 11:29 am, August 15th, 2014

          Slater admitted he did it. There was no dilemma over who provided him the data. He did it himself.

          Gosman: Comment:But the door was open…
          Date published: 11:27 am, August 15th, 2014

          Why didn’t Labour sue Cameron Slater or at least report him to the Police if what he had done was illegal? He was quite open about being able to access their website. There was none of this anonymous hackers nonsense that Hager uses as a defence.

          Gosman: Comment:But the door was open…
          Date published: 11:24 am, August 15th, 2014

          If it was as cut and dried legally as you make out how come Labour never took Cameron Slater to court over the subject? He bragged about accessing the site quite openly at the time

          Gosman: Comment:But the door was open…
          Date published: 10:35 am, August 15th, 2014

          Using the example of Facebook might help explain the difference. If I post some pictures on my Facebook page that I was only meaning for certain of my close friends but I fail to set my privacy settings correctly so everybody can see them then when …

          Gosman: Comment:But the door was open…
          Date published: 9:49 am, August 15th, 2014

          There is one other difference. I believe Cameron Slater admitted he went in to the Labour Party website and then blogged about how it was unsecured. The information Hager based his book on was hacked and not just accessed randomly.

          Gosman: Comment:Hager’s “Dirty Politics”
          Date published: 6:46 pm, August 13th, 2014

          Yes if there is hard evidence SIS information was passed on then he should resign. Is there this hard evidence?

          tricledrown: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 3:52 pm, August 13th, 2014

          Gosman is associated to whyte collar criminals he is the missing link of intellectual pygmies!

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 2:59 pm, August 13th, 2014

          People who have links to gangs.

          Molly: Comment:Open mike 13/08/2014
          Date published: 2:25 pm, August 13th, 2014

          … a bow Felix, for providing Gosman with a better turn of…

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 13/08/2014
          Date published: 12:42 pm, August 13th, 2014

          Except anti-Jewish views are based more on race. I have no problem with secular Arabs or even religious ones who accept their faith should not interfere with the wider public sphere. I do have an issue with the mainstream view of Islam where upon there is…

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 13/08/2014
          Date published: 12:20 pm, August 13th, 2014

          Umm,,, you do realise you can dislike Islam and not be a neo-fascist don’t you? You can also link to an article that may be hosted by someone with neo-fascist views but that does not make the article neo-fascist and nor by extension does that make you one…

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 11:43 am, August 13th, 2014

          Not changing the subject at all. If tricledrown wishes to post something on Open Mike I will support my position that Ireland and a number of Eastern European nations got through the downturn after the GFC by following a austerity line much better than …

          felix: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 11:27 am, August 13th, 2014

          Classic Gosman: ‘I’m quite willing to defend my position, let’s change the subject immediately.’

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 11:18 am, August 13th, 2014

          Just to refresh your memory on the topic here is your coment equating futures with CDO’s http://thestandard.org.nz/nrt-32000-out-of-work-under-national/#comment-861761

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 11:01 am, August 13th, 2014

          Yes. I am quite willing to defend my position on those issue. I’m curious though about your comments where you equate Futures with a CDO. Would you classify that as a lie considering it is wrong?

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 10:25 am, August 13th, 2014

          Link to media report please. Governments do not usually engage in the detail of how statistics are collected however if you have evidence of this present it.

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 10:22 am, August 13th, 2014

          Such as?

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 10:21 am, August 13th, 2014

          Eh???

          Gosman: Comment:Naming the game
          Date published: 9:17 am, August 13th, 2014

          How will you determine in an objective manner whether or not bias exists?

          weka: Comment:Naming the game
          Date published: 7:57 pm, August 12th, 2014

          What number is that Gosman?

          Gosman: Comment:Naming the game
          Date published: 7:37 pm, August 12th, 2014

          Does that mean you support vandalism of election billboard s?

          Gosman: Comment:Naming the game
          Date published: 7:36 pm, August 12th, 2014

          Considering a number of people here have basically stated people who have been caught doing so are legends it is a bit rich to try and claim that it is just politics as usual. I have never seen that sort of attitude before.

          Tracey: Comment:Hager, fear & the surveillance state
          Date published: 6:02 pm, August 12th, 2014

          gosman likes facts, so thanks for obliging. Key is worried about hagers book. On prime news he called hager an extreme left wing conspiracy. Soper, unusually for him, then pointed out hager also upset clark over corngate.

          poor kiwi senior.: Comment:Open mike 12/08/2014
          Date published: 5:29 pm, August 12th, 2014

          To Gosman, Puckish rougue Fiscani. You are …

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 5:28 pm, August 12th, 2014

          Yes I am aware of the one off case. However that is not what trickledown has claimed is happening.

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 5:26 pm, August 12th, 2014

          The problem for many of you lefties is you are so intellectually arrogant that you can’t grasp than any position which is at odds with your world view can be arrived at by the same level of analysis that you go through to come to yours. There is a lack of…

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 5:21 pm, August 12th, 2014

          Ahhh…. no. If you have a progressive tax system unless you change the bands occassionally due to wage increases more people end up paying higher rates of tax even though they may have only moved in to the higher tax bracket as a result of cost of living…

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 5:18 pm, August 12th, 2014

          Any evidence that Cops are fudging crime statistics in a massive way under National party guidance?

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 5:17 pm, August 12th, 2014

          You have evidence that membership of gangs have increased over the past 6 years do you?

          Gosman: Comment:Typical misrepresentation from Farrar
          Date published: 5:15 pm, August 12th, 2014

          Again the double standards in the comment is fascinating.”

          ALOT mor eon August 12 2014 then

          ” Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 2:08 pm, August 11th, 2014

          No, I am not calling the judge a liar. Now where is your evidence I have lied?

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 2:07 pm, August 11th, 2014

          Again what lie have I supposedly told and what evidence do you have to support your view that it is a lie?

          Gosman: Comment:Labour – “Ready to Win”
          Date published: 2:05 pm, August 11th, 2014

          The actual hole would have been bigger if the policies put in place by Labour were not altered in anyway. That is not to suggest Labour wouldn’t have made changes however they seemed very reluctant to reduce any spending over this period.

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 1:45 pm, August 11th, 2014

          Except there was evidence that was accepted by the court that Banks did know about the donation and had asked for it to be split. That is why he was convicted. There isn’t any evidence that I am aware that I have knowingly stated something that is not …

          tricledrown: Comment:Labour – “Ready to Win”
          Date published: 1:29 pm, August 11th, 2014

          what Bullshit again Gosman so the $ 2.5 billion …

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 1:19 pm, August 11th, 2014

          Ummmm…no. You have obviously not read the poster you linked to. It would be a logical fallacy if I argued that someone should disprove that the Chinese state only allows land to be leased and not sold outright as I had made the claim. However all I have…

          Gosman: Comment:Labour – “Ready to Win”
          Date published: 1:07 pm, August 11th, 2014

          I find it hilarious you think National forced Labour into doing anything let alone Tax cuts (which I presume you eroneously called increases). Regardless the biggest impact on the fiscal deteriation was likely the 7 Billion worth of additional spending …

          tricledrown: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 1:02 pm, August 11th, 2014

          Gosman The banks have paid it … a year just in interest Gosman we are paying it back…

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 12:53 pm, August 11th, 2014

          None that own the land outright that I am aware. I believe they lease it. It is the lease and associated buildings on the land that is worth billions. I’m still waiting for you to show where I have lied. Even if I am wrong on this subject (which I don’t …

          Gosman: Comment:Jamie Whyte officially loses it
          Date published: 12:38 pm, August 11th, 2014

          I never stated they did.

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 12:21 pm, August 11th, 2014

          Who will sell land to anyone who can pay a bribe? Also I’m pretty sure you don’t understand what a lie actually is. As stated please provide me evidence where I have lied.

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 12:20 pm, August 11th, 2014

          If you think the current government is as oppressive as the Chinese government I think your perception is seriously warped.

          Tiger Mountain: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 12:05 pm, August 11th, 2014

          Gosman or other RWNJ annoying you? …

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 11:48 am, August 11th, 2014

          I’m not sure why you seek to defend Sutch. The evidence seems to point towards the logical conclusion he was an active spy for the Soviet Union.

          Gosman: Comment:Labour – “Ready to Win”
          Date published: 11:42 am, August 11th, 2014

          The debt accumulated since 2008 was largely predicted by the Treasury in the 2008 PREFU and was as a result of the fiscal situation left by the last Labour led government.

          Gosman: Comment:Jamie Whyte officially loses it
          Date published: 11:37 am, August 11th, 2014

          Please advise where I have lied here.

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 10:42 am, August 11th, 2014

          As I stated it is irrelevant if Sutch believed what he was doing was not harming NZ’s interest. He was working as an operative for a foreign country and seemingly passed on information to them. As such he was a spy and traitor by extension.

          Gosman: Comment:Jamie Whyte officially loses it
          Date published: 10:11 am, August 11th, 2014

          What I find funny here is that not so long ago many on the left were complaining loudly about the unsuitability of Devoy to be Race relations commissioner.

          Gosman: Comment:How Labour and the Greens win it from here
          Date published: 10:09 am, August 11th, 2014

          I don’t think they are aiming to get the votes of people like you.

          RedLogix: Comment:Open mike 10/08/2014
          Date published: 9:54 am, August 11th, 2014

          … book. No tinfoil hats needed Gosman.

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 9:52 am, August 11th, 2014

          Why would I read a fiction novel by Graham Greene to understand why Sutch was not the person mentioned as being a spy in KGB archive material?

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 9:33 am, August 11th, 2014

          The security of the Chinese people that the government constantly suppresses.

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 9:23 am, August 11th, 2014

          Why wouldn’t he be the person mentioned?

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 9:21 am, August 11th, 2014

          So he was a spy/traitor as well as a supporter of a muderous regime if he is the person mentioned in the KGB archive material.

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 9:18 am, August 11th, 2014

          You don’t know what I believe in. I certainly have never expressed a preference for trickledown economics (whatever that might be). However back to Dr Sutch being a spy. Why do you not think he was a spy? He fits the description given by the KGB for a spy…

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 10/08/2014
          Date published: 9:12 am, August 11th, 2014

          Do you wear a tinfoil hat as well?

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 9:07 am, August 11th, 2014

          Except the bailout of the banks was paid bacvk by the banks with interest.

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 9:05 am, August 11th, 2014

          Chinese land is not kept for Chinese. It is merely not able to be sold to anyone Chinese or otherwise.

          Gosman: Comment:Open mike 11/08/2014
          Date published: 9:03 am, August 11th, 2014

          The question was whether he was a spy for the Soviets. It is not if th information he may have passed on was damaging to NZ’s interest.”

          • dv 4.1.3.3.1
            15 September 2014 at 11:30 am

            Tracey that is really mean of you.

            • Tracey 4.1.3.3.1.1
              15 September 2014 at 11:33 am

              😉

              I know how much he pretends to want evidence.

              • Mary Anne …
                15 September 2014 at 12:19 pm

                Good work.

              • Gosman …
                15 September 2014 at 12:26 pm

                Fair enough it looks like I was incorrect. As far as I was concerned I had basically stopped posting here and anywhere else for a number of weeks due to being engaged in the election but it seems I did make a few comments. It looks like I did not shy away from commenting on the allegations though and in fact agreed John Key should resign if it was shown he had used SIS data inappropriatly.

                • McFlock …
                  15 September 2014 at 12:51 pm

                  It looks like I did not shy away from commenting on the allegations though and in fact agreed John Key should resign if it was shown he had used SIS data inappropriatly.

                  not quite
                  You agreed with mickeysavage that key should resign if there was “hard evidence” (lol there’s your dodge) that the Prime Minister’s office “was using SIS information for political advantage by leaking to Slater. ”

                  Although even key thinks his office is himself except those times when he is his office.

                  • Gosman …
                    15 September 2014 at 1:12 pm

                    Pretty much what i stated.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 September 2014 at 1:18 pm

                      but not quite. We have to be precise, because sometimes when key says that he was told he means that only his office was told and he knew nothing, and sometimes when he says his office was told it means he knew about it.

                    • Tracey …
                      15 September 2014 at 1:21 pm

                      ” due to being engaged in the election”

                      Colour me surprised and then your involvement in the election stopped, and started again and has stopped now?

                      I wonder why you would be so sure you had stopped posting when you were very proliferate (I didn’t paste all of the comments you made). What a curious thing

                      FOG

                    • Tracey …
                      15 September 2014 at 1:22 pm

                      McFlock

                      and sometimes a discussion with key is actually talking to someone in his office…

                      and is key’s Clinton moment really boiling down to

                      “It depends on what you mean by “me”?”

                    • Tracey …
                      15 September 2014 at 1:25 pm

                      actually what you stated was you stopped posting before the DP discussions, and you hadn’t. Or have you moved on to comment about a different time you misstated?

                    • McFlock …
                      15 September 2014 at 1:34 pm

                      I’m just really worried about tories in general – it’s like there’s a brain bug attacking them. Key forgets things all the time, brownlee was getting figures wrong re: transport, and now gossy needs reminding about what he said and when.

                      If this condition has hit the wider population, it might explain their polling…

                    • Tracey …
                      15 September 2014 at 1:36 pm

                      chuckle McFlock

                      It’s a worry to have to rely on such a forgetful lot to be the foundation of our future.

                    • Gosman …
                      15 September 2014 at 4:45 pm

                      A little bit of a reality check here please. My mistaking when I stopped posting here is hardly indicative of anything beyond my poor memory around the subject not indicative of some vast right wing conspiracy to spread disinformation. It isn’t even a very interesting aside as it makes no difference to why I wasn’t commenting which basically came down to work and the election. As for why I am commenting more that is because work has eased off a tad.

                    • Tracey …
                      15 September 2014 at 4:56 pm

                      If you had just posted, “I was wrong” when I showed you were, well, wrong, the rest of the posts probably wouldn’t happen but you just couldn’t bring yourself to say a simple

                      “I was wrong”.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 September 2014 at 4:57 pm

                      I suppose it’s a sort of Turding Test scenario, as we will never really know the truth, but it might be plausible that the comments of an unregenerate paid liar are indistinguishable from those of an idiot who has early-onset senility so bad that he needs to be consistently reminded by others about what he posted and when.

                • Tracey …
                  15 September 2014 at 1:24 pm

                  It doesn’t |look like” you were incorrect it proves you were wrong, maybe even suggests you lied… but jaybe you are just really busy like a Prime Minister and can’t remember the mundane things like whether you told Rennie to hire Fletcher or he told you, or whether you did stop mass surveillance or just stopped it a little bit, or whether you owned tranz rail shares when speaking about it in parliament in or not.

                  Probably cos you are SO important you couldn’t remember something you seemed so sure of only this morning.

  5. dv 5
    15 September 2014 at 7:52 am

    More like a slow poisoning.

  6. Chooky 6
    15 September 2014 at 7:52 am

    This is a good clear summary of pertinent questions that need to be answered.

    (Of particular interest, given Slater’s connections with Israel is this question number 9:-which raises serious questions about New Zealand’s sovereignty and democracy…. Is it being usurped?

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/sep/11/nsa-israel-intelligence-memorandum-understanding-document

    “Is raw data on New Zealanders collected by the GCSB or the NSA and shared with Israeli Intelligence Services?

    Is Israel effectively part of Six Eyes? When did the NZ Parliament agree to share raw data on its citizens with Mossad?….)

    ‘Which of John Key’s many statements on the GCSB will Glenn Greenwald challenge and refute?’

    By Denis Tegg / September 15, 2014 /

    “We already have Glenn Greenwald’s assertion on The Nation that John Key has misled New Zealanders as to whether the GCSB has engaged in mass surveillance of Kiwis. But Key has made many other statements about the GCSB’s powers and activities. So which of these other public statements made by Key will Glenn Greenwald challenge and refute ?….

    – See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/09/15/guest-blog-denis-tegg-which-of-john-keys-many-statements-on-the-gcsb-will-glenn-greenwald-challenge-and-refute/#sthash.pgRm6CDk.dpuf

    • ghostwhowalksnz 6.1
      15 September 2014 at 3:06 pm

      Mossad would do its own intell.

      In NZ they would be very interested in Palestinians living here who have relatives back home. They use personal details to find targets in the occupied territories for gathering humint on day to day activities.

      Thats why Israel has an embassy here, as a base for their spying. AS the Christchurch earthquake showed they have operatives coming and going as tourists as well. Gathering passports of overseas visitors to NZ, making covert surveillance of Palestinian activities here

  7. vto 7
    15 September 2014 at 8:00 am

    ha ha, Key has already been sprung like the naughty evil schoolboy…

    “I didn’t take the biscuits”

    …”but we have photos of you taking the biscuits”…

    “well, we planned to take the biscuits and had some practice takes, but in the end we decided not to take the biscuits”

    … I mean really, who is he trying to kid? Key has been sprung like the shittiest used-car dealer lying through his teeth.

    Key confirms his place in NZ’s history as the country’s biggest liar.

  8. karol 8
    15 September 2014 at 8:16 am

    So, today (“tomorrow”/Monday) Wikileaks is releasing documents showing use of weaponised malware.

    Is this related to Assange’s appearance on the Moment of Truth?

    ANNOUNCE: Tomorrow (Monday) WikiLeaks releases SpyFiles4, including weaponized malware. See Spyfiles 1-3: https://search.wikileaks.org/search?q=spyfiles …

    NB let’s see if this posts: been locked out of logging into TS for half an hour. Forgot I recently changed my password. Only tried to use the old one once this morning.

  9. hoom 9
    15 September 2014 at 8:30 am

    On Planet Key its ok to release classified material to protect your own reputation rather than the Nation or Allies reputations & security interests for whose protection the material was originally classified…

    • Tracey 9.1
      15 September 2014 at 8:55 am

      BUT not tot he 88 people who were wrongly spied upon. They have no right to know that they were. Funny that.

  10. Local Kiwi 10
    15 September 2014 at 8:59 am

    God – Goose stepman is freaking out eh?

    Never heard that android repeat after repeat after repeat, “no smoking gun, no smoking gun, no smoking gun hey iPrent kill it with silly repetition remarks please..

    It must be a GCSB malfunction in it’s CPU Logic!

  11. Ted Blaikie 11
    15 September 2014 at 9:17 am

    Didn’t I read somewhere that John Key gave an assurance that, not only was there no mass surveillance in N Z, but there never had beenany. Hopefully someone has the link to the source. It looks like this assurance could turn out to be Key’s downfall.

  12. karol 12
    15 September 2014 at 9:57 am

    So, tonight’s moment of truth will not just be about the material Snowden took from the 5 Eyes network, but Snowden’s own statements about his experiences working with GCSB/NZ info:

    In documents to be published later today, Mr Snowden had written about how “he worked with and personally witnessed from the GCSB” which contributed to Five Eyes surveillance, he said.

    “The documents themselves describe this programme and describe the progress being made, but the testimony of Edward Snowden first hand, about the material and the data he worked with, the amount of it that came from the GCSB, is extremely clear,” Greenwald said.

  13. Tracey 13
    15 September 2014 at 9:58 am

    11 October 2012

    “Labour claims it has sources inside the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) spy agency who are adamant Mr Key gave an address to staff in which he spoke of Dotcom.

    If it’s true, then the timing is highly significant – contradicting Mr Key’s previous statements, and Labour says there may even be an audio-visual recording of the address.

    The GCSB is based at an office in Wellington, and it’s there that a GCSB spy told Mr Key on February 29 this year of the agency’s involvement in the Dotcom investigation. Mr Key claimed he only first heard of their involvement on September 17.

    “I have no recollection of [being told in February], now it doesn’t ring a bell with me, but if he says he did I’ve got no reason to doubt him,” Mr Key said.

    Now Labour says GCSB sources have approached them, saying on the same day in February Mr Key also addressed staff and allegedly made a short ‘quip’ about Dotcom and the investigation carried out by the GCSB and police….

    Mr Shearer says the fact the Prime Minister never knows anything is the reason an independent inquiry must go ahead.”

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/secret-gcsb-recording-catches-key-out–labour-2012101118#ixzz3DKVne500

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/secret-gcsb-recording-catches-key-out–labour-2012101118#ixzz3DKVZbzES
    “

  14. emergency mike 14
    15 September 2014 at 10:08 am

    John Key has said that Dotcom has a big butt. And that his speakers are “three little butts”.

    I shit you not.

    • Chooky 14.1
      15 September 2014 at 10:29 am

      lol…at least Dotcom has a big brain to match…the BIG BRAIN is very sexy in a man

      ….as for John Key’s butt?!…it doesnt bare thinking about!….(but David Cunliffe looks better in Speedos)

      …it is what is what comes out of it Key’s mouth and head that is of concern …not his butt or Dotcom’s butt, or anyone else’s butt…this is but a butt diversion by the slippery one

    • karol 14.2
      15 September 2014 at 10:33 am

      How anyone thinks this nasty little man, with his cheap schoolyard rhetoric, is a nice, smiley, trustworthy guy, worthy of holding the office of PM, is beyond me.

  15. Tracey 15
    15 September 2014 at 10:18 am

    “”Being able to inform the citizenry in anticipation of an election, a really important election, I think is one of my duties as a journalist, and so I tried really hard to make sure the reporting was done prior to the election rather than after the election, when I think a lot of New Zealanders would have said, ‘we wish you had told us this before we voted rather than after’.”

    Dotcom had simply offered him an opportunity to do so in a local setting at a “major event”, he said.

    He had been working on the New Zealand files for “many months”, before the invite from Dotcom, he said.

    His $25,000 appearance fee would be donated to a charity yet to be chosen.”

    Hang your head in shame NZ Fourth Estate

    • karol 15.1
      15 September 2014 at 10:23 am

      Hang your head in shame NZ Fourth Estate infotainment, corporate controlled mainstream media

      FIFY.

      Any fourth estate in NZ is on the margins of the media, and not within the dominant voices in the MSM – but mostly totally outside the NZ MSM.

    • JanMeyer 15.2
      15 September 2014 at 10:36 am

      “Dotcom had simply offered him an opportunity to do so in a local setting at a “major event”, he said.”

      Not good enough. With all his undoubted investigative journalism skills you’d think he would have done some basic research on Dotcom before agreeing to be part of KDC’s circus act. If he had given a lecture sponsored by a leading media organisation or a University (per Paul Buchanan on Nat Radio this morning), or just published his article and supporting evidence from his home in Brazil, the whole exercise would carry far more weight. He is on the back foot before he has started.

      • Tracey 15.2.1
        15 September 2014 at 10:47 am

        Has it occurred to you that NO media organisation or university would host him? I mean we have TV3, APN and Fairfax all cowering under Slater’s bullying (even though they supposedly won the right to publish).

        He wants to make sure what he has to say is actually heard so he teamed up with someone with a huge megaphone. What an evil bastard!

        • JanMeyer 15.2.1.1
          15 September 2014 at 10:56 am

          Understand that Tracey but Dotcom?? You must see how that taints him and his message. There were other ways of communicating this that didn’t have to involve Dotcom, who the vast majority of New Zealanders regard as toxic. I don’t deny Greenwald’s credentials and right to shed light on this but I do think it shows very poor judgement aligning himself with Dotcom.

          • karol 15.2.1.1.1
            15 September 2014 at 11:03 am

            It is what it is. I’d have preferred Greenwald was distanced from Dotcom – ditto Harre, Mana, etc.

            But Greenwald’s credentials and reports have their own internationally-supported credibility. And, even some of NZ MSM journalists are treating it as such.

            Possibly it’s also about how hackers support each other – and Dotcom started out as one.

          • Tracey 15.2.1.1.2
            15 September 2014 at 11:19 am

            I personally think the use of Assange is the biggest mistake of Dotcom but then I remember that he is not trying to become a majority party in NZ so doesnt need to bring everyone along with him.

            The other possibility is that Greenwald did do his background research on DotCom and dosn’t find him as tainted as National have painted him?

          • Hanswurst 15.2.1.1.3
            15 September 2014 at 11:26 am

            Dotcom?? You must see how that taints him and his message.

            What nonsense. Greenwald either constructs a good argument from evidence or he doesn’t. Dotcom doesn’t taint that. Of course, Key can use any means he wants to try to taint it… means like Whaleoil, Kiwiblog, NZHerald. Don’t you see how Key is tainted by the company he accepts?

          • Tautoko Viper 15.2.1.1.4
            15 September 2014 at 12:54 pm

            On what information and supplied to you by whom have you and most of the people in NZ based their opinions of Dotcom?

            I could ask the same question about David Cunliffe as well. The MSM have done a great hatchet job on David.

      • northshoreguynz 15.2.2
        15 September 2014 at 1:04 pm

        Maybe he did as you suggest, and found, quelle horreur, that KDC might be right!!

  16. Dont worry. Be happy 16
    15 September 2014 at 10:35 am

    Favourite mad thing John Key has said recently…Greenwald “is trying to politicise the election”

    If only it could be all about selfies with you Prime Minister, is that right?

  17. Rich 17
    15 September 2014 at 10:43 am

    The ODT has a line in a story about the moment of truth this morning that there is an audio recording of Key talking to Warner Bros about Dotcom.

    • Tracey 17.1
      15 September 2014 at 10:49 am

      can you post a link. I read their story, are there two?

      • Rich 17.1.1
        15 September 2014 at 11:01 am

        It’s in the hard copy version of the paper, not sure about online.

        I’ll get a copy at lunchtime and add some more detail. It might not be that story exactly, not sure.

        • Tracey 17.1.1.1
          15 September 2014 at 11:21 am

          Thanks Rich, I wondered if it was hardcopy not online. It sparked my interest because back in 2012 there was the story from labour that someone was at a GCSB meeting at which Key made a quip about DotCom…

          It is also fascinating that Key remembers saying “is he Korean” but he can barely remember what he said last week.

      • Lanthanide 17.1.2
        15 September 2014 at 11:34 am

        http://www.odt.co.nz/news/election-2014/315942/moment-truth-will-need-be-compelling

        Dr Edwards said the ”main rumour” was that Mr Dotcom would reveal a recording of Mr Key talking to Warner Brothers executives, and their request for Mr Dotcom to be granted residency so he could be arrested for copyright infringement.

        The recording also reportedly involves talk of subsidies and law changes to make The Hobbit films in New Zealand.

        ”That’s what I’ve heard but I’ve got absolutely no idea if it’s true or not. It’s certainly a plausible rumour.”

        • Tracey 17.1.2.1
          15 September 2014 at 11:43 am

          Ah… Mr Hooton or similar at work creating a rumour so when that is not covered people feel let down?

          • Lanthanide 17.1.2.1.1
            15 September 2014 at 11:47 am

            Well I hope this is the evidence, because it really would be incontrovertible. Lucky Key has such hopeless diction he’ll stand out like a sore thumb and won’t be able to claim it was someone else.

    • karol 17.2
      15 September 2014 at 2:39 pm

      It’s an email.

      Purported email is the evidence Kim Dotcom plans to reveal tonight

      – Said to be written by Warner Bros CEO at time of Hobbit negotiations

      – PM allegedly in on plan to have Dotcom extradited to US

      – Key and Warner Bros yet to respond to claims
      […]
      The claimed email reads: “We had a really good meeting with the Prime Minister. He’s a fan and we’re getting what we came for. Your groundwork in New Zealand is paying off. I see strong support for our anti-piracy effort.

      “John Key told me in private that they are granting Dotcom residency despite pushback from officials about his criminal past. His AG will do everything in his power to assist us with our case. VIP treatment and then a one-way ticket to Virginia.

      “This is a game changer. The DOJ is against the Hong Kong option. No confidence in the Chinese. Great job.”

      • Lanthanide 17.2.1
        15 September 2014 at 2:45 pm

        That’s a pity, there’s going to be all the usual accusations of forgery etc.

        • wtl 17.2.1.1
          15 September 2014 at 2:59 pm

          Key himself won’t be in any position to say that the email is a forgery, only the (purported) email sender and recipient are able to do so. My guess is, being in the US they will be advised by their lawyers to say “No comment”, rather than claim it’s a forgery.

  18. Iron Sky 18
    15 September 2014 at 11:00 am

    Did you know there is a ship the patrols the internet cable.
    Apparently its a “nice” little number in terms of a contract.

    So
    1. Who is the company, were they involved in helping with the probes attachments
    2. Is the probe still there
    3. If so is it still active (i.e. circumventing NZ law and being picked up by others then feed back to us/how could you possible know…. I thought stolen was stolen)
    4. What defines mass surveillance, when does a pebble become a rock? (i.e. its ok to spy on say 2000 or so government workers MBIE, NZDF, MPI etc etc and therefore effectively your not doing mass surveillance?)
    5. Once you’ve been “Marked”, how long can they continue with the surveillance?
    6. If there is release of documents by JK there will also be a whole series of meta data with it and actual communications (also CCTV, swipe cards ……..)
    7. Set up and independent body to analyze SIS & GCSB computers, data etc….. no trade secrets need to shown, only themes…..

    • hoom 18.1
      15 September 2014 at 11:14 am

      There is no need for a ship to latch stuff to the Southern Cross cable when all access points (except Fiji) are on 5 Eyes territory.
      http://www.southerncrosscables.com/home/network

      They most likely just have black boxes at the access points, presence mandated by the local Govt.

      • Paul Campbell 18.1.1
        15 September 2014 at 12:01 pm

        Yes most of our US bound packets come ashore in Hawaii …. by some strange coincidence that was where Snowden worked before he went AWOL …. you can see why he might be personally involved with NZ data

        • hoom 18.1.1.1
          15 September 2014 at 1:50 pm

          Most go straight through to LA or San Jose. (doesn’t preclude packets being yoinked at Hawaii though I guess)

          Hawaii is for branching to across to Japan/rest of asia & a lot (most/all?) of NZ ISPs are either too cheap to do that so traffic goes to LA/San Jose & then back across to Japan or get to asia via Aus & cable north from there.

      • Iron Sky 18.1.2
        15 September 2014 at 5:29 pm

        Hoom, you said:

        “There is no need for a ship to latch stuff to the Southern Cross cable when all access points (except Fiji) are on 5 Eyes territory”

        Well, that showed up my stupid ass comment of

        1. Who is the company, were they involved in helping with the probes attachments.

        However, if they are collecting data on us from all telecos in NZ and then sending it wholesale to the US, how is that done secretly.

        Someone must be able to audit this. Data in, data out.

        The stupid thing about all this, is that if you are an on to it terrorist, you would use the medium to your advantage.

        Or are they getting scared of ‘normal’ people?

  19. cogito 19
    15 September 2014 at 11:43 am

    How long before Key tries to defend himself by quoting Nixon:

    “April 6, 1977: Nixon: ‘If the President Does It, That Means It’s Not Illegal’. ”

    ….because that’s pretty much all that Key has got left.

  20. Treetop 20
    15 September 2014 at 12:18 pm

    My take on this is:

    Did the NSA do the spying as stage 1 was implemented?

    Did the GCSB think the new legislation allowed them to collect wholesale data?

    Recall the stuff up by the SIS and the GCSB over a resident being spied on.

    I bet that those employed at the GCSB and the SIS are working overtime – 18 hour days.

    17.1.2 was discussed by Anne and I in mid July. Will track it down if the main reveal is what 17.1.2 transpires.

  21. aerobubble 21
    15 September 2014 at 12:19 pm

    Nation states defend their sovereign territory from attack from within and without. This requires that they have the means of reasonably effecting such defenses.
    Threats to the state include private cabals.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal
    All groups in order to maintain themselves require the interchange of gifts, in order to show identity, status, and provide reward to each other.
    Our very own cult of neo-liberals is one such group, who maintain and communicate openly with their annoying recital of false myths. Their gift, like the Christian who will give the gift of ‘God loves you’ – ever lasting life in heaven, the neo-liberal gives the gift of ‘lower taxes’ – the gift of wealth, both require a sufficient delusion about the nature of reality, and faithfulness, to avoid questioning the Truth as they know it.

    Nation states view being over run by such bigots, since they undermine the military readiness, the economic viability, and the social integration per-requisite and axiomatic to the defense of the state, as an attack. And react proportionate to the threat.

    Our current debate over surveillance is the necessary reaction by secret services to such a threat, the atheistic religion, having taken over and started to undermine the ability of democracy to function. Fear within the media and from opposition to the present government that they will attract the attention of Slater and his ilk. Now I not arguing that dirty isn’t a necessary feature of democracy, it is, even foundational. Nor am I arguing that private cabals cant exist and openly abuse the civil population without attracting the ire of state secret services. States aren’t concerned about that, states however do get concerned when the general population is primed against them, are frustrated in their ability to hold the present government to account, where dissenting voices are pushed underground, self-censorship beds in, and growing resentment rises. This makes it hard for the state to find, analysis and infiltrate threats, and eve turns the general population into another threat.

    Ubiquitous state surveillance is thus a threat to the nation state, and its no wonder they have allowed Snowden to escape with state secrets, because the threat to the state is so great from the chilling effect that all our relationships can be pulled up at a moments notice and the ‘slaterer’ is called in to rifle into personal lives to find the knock out king punch. Both to economic actors as well as democratic actors. i.e. Collins and Hannover linkages.

    You see Slater, the ill informed, is a threat to all who hold the rule of law above all. His alliance with the PM office, and his close relationship with media, is a threat to the ability of the state to defend itself.

    A warrant should be necessary to collect meta data and discover relationships, and the fishing expedition that Key says he only looked into beginning, should never be possible. The very fact that Key even did suggests he is unsuitable to be PM, if he cannot even understand the basics of the job, and proves he is a member of the neo-liberal undermining of our nation state.

  22. North 22
    15 September 2014 at 12:42 pm

    Never seen Key so rattled. As evidenced by the gauche reference on NewstalkZB this morning to the size of KDC’s butt (delivered not with malice but tellingly), and on the same day, “loser” Greenwald (obviously with some malice and very very tellingly).

    Things are really serious then.

    • Rich 22.1
      15 September 2014 at 2:12 pm

      Yes and he’s guessing what might be in store tonight as well. It sounds like he might have been ‘Collins’d’ (ie had his moorings loosened).

  23. North 23
    15 September 2014 at 12:51 pm

    Come to think of it Key is behaving towards Greenwald in the same vein as Collins behaved towards the Canadian judge Justice Binnie who did the Bain report.

  24. Tracey 24
    15 September 2014 at 1:30 pm

    Access to a cable or no access to a cable? Access to a cable or no planned access to a cable?

    “At the time, a spokeswoman for the Prime Minister told the Herald that questions about the SSO visit appeared to be about “a cable access programme”.

    “We can categorically state that there is no such programme operating in New Zealand, and any claims that there is are utterly wrong.”

    In relation to plans for access of cables, she said “we are not and we have no intention of introducing one”.

    The conflicting claims are in direct conflict — a specific point in an argument over mass surveillance. Key has said he canned a plan for mass surveillance in March 2013 because it was too intrusive.”

    Fisher reporting in Herald online
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11324936

    he provides a timeline

    “Timeline

    2011: Cyber attacks on New Zealand.

    Early 2012: GCSB starts looking at a mass protection solution.

    April 2012: Cabinet approves GCSB working towards a business case.

    September 2012: Illegal spying on Kim Dotcom admitted.

    October 2012: Then-Cabinet secretary Rebecca Kitteridge reviews GCSB.

    February 2013: NSA engineer specialising in cable tapping comes to NZ.

    March 2013: GCSB draft review tells Key bureau’s practices don’t fit with the law. Key puts GCSB “mass protection” plan on hold.

    April 2013: GCSB review made public raising concerns about illegal spying on Kiwis.

    May 2013: Two new spy laws are introduced. Key says it stops mass surveillance, opponents say it allows it.

    June 2013: Edward Snowden begins to divulge NSA documents, which include the GCSB cable-tapping plan.

    August 2013: After months of public meetings and concerns over mass surveillance, the new laws pass.”

  25. alwyn 25
    15 September 2014 at 2:10 pm

    I am curious why this blog, and a few others from the left so frequently make the claim that
    “Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Glenn Greenwald” etc.
    Why do you claim he won a Pulitzer Prize? The nearest I can find is that he used to write for The Guardian newspaper that shared a Pulitzer with the Washington Post for stories about Snowden’s leaks.
    That is the closest thing I have seen and there was no mention of Greenwald in the award that I could see.
    It is a little bit like Al Gore claiming that he won the Nobel Peace prize, which of course he didn’t. In that vein of course I suppose I could claim that I won a Nobel Peace Prize as I was part of Amnesty International when “we” won the prize in 1977.
    Is it just to make him a somewhat more reputable figure than he really is?

    • dv 25.1
      15 September 2014 at 2:15 pm

      Who wrote the stories Alwyn?

    • Te Reo Putake 25.2
      15 September 2014 at 2:21 pm

      The term is used because he’s, er, a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. His work on the Snowden stuff, which was jointly published by the Grauniad and the Post, won the accolade this year.

      If you’re going to try to smear the ‘left’ for using the term accurately, best you check the Herald don’t do the same. Oh, look … they do!

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11324113

    • karol 25.3
      15 September 2014 at 2:21 pm

      Greenwald and several other journalists won the prize for their work on the NSA stories.

      On Monday, Greenwald and other journalists at The Guardian and The Washington Post were awarded the Pulitzer for their reporting on the National Security Agency. The big question as the awards approached was whether the Pulitzer Prize committee would recognize their work, and they did just that.

      On Sunday’s “Reliable Sources,” Greenwald told Stelter that he was having lunch with his phone on the table when the announcement came, and described his reaction.

      “I think there was an expectation that the committee had to recognize the reporting in one way or another, and the question was going to be how,” said Greenwald. “To learn that it was the public service award and that it was given to The Guardian and to The Washington Post for the work that we had done was really gratifying, because I think that is what the ideal was that we always tried to fulfill, which was doing the reporting in the public service.”

      • alwyn 25.3.1
        15 September 2014 at 2:39 pm

        That is the old story of jumping in first and claiming all the credit. A very, very common failing, particularly among politicians. This story depends mostly on Greenwald’s own claims to prominence.
        This story might say that “Greenwald and other journalists etc” but the people who award the Pulitzer didn’t.
        http://www.pulitzer.org/citation/2014-Public-Service
        I suppose it is like politicians claiming that they wrote a policy in an election manifesto and then can’t remember what is in it.
        At least David Shearer doesn’t behave like this. Otherwise he could claim that he got a Nobel Peace Prize also because he worked for the part of the United Nations involved with refugees. An unusual politician is Shearer. One of the few I admire.

        • Te Reo Putake 25.3.1.1
          15 September 2014 at 2:51 pm

          Stop dribbling, Alwyn. He won a Pulitzer. If you google his name and pulitzer you’ll find a grand total of one person who thinks he didn’t win it. And that’s some sad sack in NZ called alwyn.

          “I am curious why this blog, and a few others from the left …”

          That was your original feeble smear. As I pointed out, even the Herald acknowledges he won. As does well known lefty blogger WhaleOil. You’re harpooned by your own pomposity, Alwyn. Best you scuttle off and try and find something more substantial to whinge about.

          • Hayden 25.3.1.1.1
            15 September 2014 at 2:53 pm

            Actually, that argument’s been advanced at least once in the Stuff comments today – it must be on someone’s list of talking points.

        • Hayden 25.3.1.2
          15 September 2014 at 2:52 pm

          Gee, the Guardian themselves seem to think he made a reasonable contribution:

          At the Guardian, the NSA reporting was led by Glenn Greenwald, Ewen MacAskill and film-maker Laura Poitras, and at the Washington Post by Barton Gellman, who also co-operated with Poitras.

          Source:
          http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/apr/14/guardian-washington-post-pulitzer-nsa-revelations

          And from your link:

          Awarded to The Guardian US for its revelation of widespread secret surveillance by the National Security Agency, helping through aggressive reporting to spark a debate about the relationship between the government and the public over issues of security and privacy.

          All emphases mine.

        • Tracey 25.3.1.3
          15 September 2014 at 2:54 pm

          You are splitting hairs a wee bit (even though I get your point) but a newspaper is inanimate it cannot do the work for which an award was given, if you get my drift.

          Logically those who did the work that the paper got awarded for, are entitled to connect themselves with the award? Aren’t they?

          http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/apr/14/guardian-washington-post-pulitzer-nsa-revelations

          • alwyn 25.3.1.3.1
            15 September 2014 at 3:31 pm

            Gee. That justification means I am entitled to claim the credit for the Amnesty Nobel Peace Prize.
            Amnesty International is inanimate? tick
            I did a (minute) part of the work? tick.
            I don’t really have the gall though.

            • dv 25.3.1.3.1.1
              15 September 2014 at 3:34 pm

              AGAIN

              AND a 3 min search on the guardian site found a lot of articles under Greenwald byline re the NSA etc.

              Go and have a look Alwyn.

            • Tracey 25.3.1.3.1.2
              15 September 2014 at 3:44 pm

              BS and you know it.

              The Guardian name him as a contributor in the article they write about the award.

    • Tracey 25.4
      15 September 2014 at 2:50 pm

      Andrea Vance calls him that, but I assume you consider she is one of the few others from the left?

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10500291/Spy-scandal-what-we-know-and-what-we-don-t

      herald Journalists Trevitt, Fisher, Michael Botur, Derek Cheng, Isaac davison,

      to name but a few

      • alwyn 25.4.1
        15 September 2014 at 3:38 pm

        Do you really regard Herald journalists as reliable, and infallible?
        Lots of journalists used to credit David Cunliffe with having an MBA degree from Harvard. I remember pointing this out to Chris Trotter when he did so.
        Wasn’t true though. It was just that journalists are as lazy as the rest of us and don’t bother to check things.

        • Tracey 25.4.1.1
          15 September 2014 at 3:43 pm

          No I don’t but many on the Right do. Just telling you where, amongst other places I had read it.

  26. Tracey 26
    15 September 2014 at 2:56 pm

    The email from DotCom to prove Key knew who he was

    “The claimed email reads: “We had a really good meeting with the Prime Minister. He’s a fan and we’re getting what we came for. Your groundwork in New Zealand is paying off. I see strong support for our anti-piracy effort.

    “John Key told me in private that they are granting Dotcom residency despite pushback from officials about his criminal past. His AG will do everything in his power to assist us with our case. VIP treatment and then a one-way ticket to Virginia.

    “This is a game changer. The DOJ is against the Hong Kong option. No confidence in the Chinese. Great job.”

    ___

    ___

    The recipient of the alleged email was said to be the MPAA’s Asia-Pacific president Michael Ellis, who has previously figured in the conspiracy Dotcom has claimed led to him being entrapped in New Zealand.

    The email largely backs up the theory Dotcom has pushed for almost three years after being arrested in 2012 on behalf of the FBI on charges of criminal copyright violation.

    Dotcom had claimed earlier this year that Tsujihara had him followed in Hong Kong.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11324988

    So I guess, if true, key has to say that the CEO of Warner bros meant the PM’s office, not the PM and it is probably some unnamed person in the PM’s office pretending to do stuff on Key’s behalf…

    I note the forgery meme has quickly been planted.

  27. Sable 27
    15 September 2014 at 6:43 pm

    A pro US crawler of the lowest order…

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