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More with less – or else (UK style)

Written By: - Date published: 3:00 pm, July 6th, 2011 - 59 comments
Categories: economy, Economy - Tags:

A conservative council in the UK sacked it’s entire workforce and offered them their jobs again the next day if they accepted a 5.4% pay cut.

This is direct fallout from the Global Financial Crisis of course – that monumental greed-made disaster caused by bankers and financial institutions and the bail out of which costs a figure so high incredibly high that my mind cannot grasp it but I know is the equivalent of $2000 for every person on the planet.

I’m just saying because the 6500 people in Shropshire who are being treated in this morally repugnant and likely illegal manner are the ones paying for the bail out as if they caused it.

And they didn’t.

59 comments on “More with less – or else (UK style) ”

  1. RobM 1

    Yes disgraceful and reminiscent of our defence force’s “You are now a civvy” shenanigans.
    Sideshow Parker will be inspired.

    (You doubled the http on the link so in my browser it fails to open)

  2. Rusty Shackleford 2

    “…that monumental greed-made disaster caused by bankers and financial institutions”, aided and abetted by our democratically elected govts. It’s funny how statists always seem to be blind to that particular piece of the puzzle.

    • The Voice of Reason 2.1

      You really are dull, Rusty and not just in the wits.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      Correct, they believed the banksters about the the effect no regulation would have on the economy. You “libertarians” tend to forget that bit.

    • Colonial Viper 2.3

      It’s funny how statists always seem to be blind to that particular piece of the puzzle.

      You wouldn’t know a real statist if you were put into solitary confinement with one.

    • KJT 2.4

      What democratic Governments?

      Do you mean the revolving dictatorships we are graciously allowed to re-arrange a bit every three years.

  3. Colonial Viper 3

    FIGHT BACK FIGHT HARD

    Don’t they know, a lot can go wrong in a town when council work isn’t done properly.

    :mrgreen:

    • Luxated 3.1

      I hope this backfires and no one accepts the offer. It would be interesting to see just how long they can find ‘productivity improvements’ when they’re 6500 people short.

      • Rusty Shackleford 3.1.1

        Private businesses would fill the gap. If there is a buck to be made, the problem usually gets solved.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1

          If there is a buck to be made, the problem usually gets solved.

          Wrong.

          • Rusty Shackleford 3.1.1.1.1

            Nah! Not even!

            What is the point of your existence. I don’t think I have ever heard you back up a premise. Whether it was right or wrong. Even if it your premise was wrong, but you backed it up with something approaching logic, at least you could get a gold star for effort.

            Let me pre-empt your response. “I know you are but what am I?”

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1.1

              ? Problems frequently make more money by not being solved. Or at the very least, not being solved quickly and efficiently.

              Your average graduate lawyer knows this. I thought it was obvious that no one wants to do themselves out of a job so did not explain, my bad.

            • KJT 3.1.1.1.1.2

              Who are you. You come here with the same old RWNJ crap that has been thoroughly debunked and proved wrong many times in history. Not to mention your own strange alternative view of history. Another paid astro-turfer. Perhaps!

              Or have you dropped in from another universe where unregulated capitalism and unfettered greed results in no poverty and prosperity for all.

              [lprent: Nope he isn’t a astroturfer. Some kind of libertarian, but he fulfills the sites minimal requirements of being human of being opinionated, capable of argument, pretty thick skinned, and responsive to stimulia from other commentators. ]

            • Ianupnorth 3.1.1.1.1.3

              Rusty, you clearly do not have a clue! When the Teesside Regional Council was dissolved about 12 years ago (under the encouragement of the Tories who wanted to get rid of all the Labour mega councils) the following happened.
              Firstly instead of have one office, one CEO, one manager for each service, etc (e.g. about 100 senior staff), they then needs three of each; and because each of the roles was a new role, and as each new district (Stockton, Middlesbrough and Hartlepool) all wanted the best employees the salaries were MORE than the roles that were dissolved -so more than three times the salary bill, but still the same rates revenue.
              So to get over this they decided they would tender out the services; so some of the managers decided to set up businesses for each of these; they were contracted out, and guess what, they paid MORE then the council had provided these – and of course the quality was not as good.
              The public complained, but their rates went up; but that was all good, because the tories thought the people would blame the councillors – they didn’t, and the Tories were kicked into touch.
               
              Private is NEVER cheaper.

              • Rusty Shackleford

                Yup, central planning sucks. I’ve been saying that all along.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  So, an example of going from a single successful, cost effective council to the private free-market that shows that costs go up now becomes, in Rusty’s delusional world, an example that showing that “central planning sucks”.

                  Yeah, this one’s not connected to reality at all.

        • rosy 3.1.1.2

          If there is a buck to be made, the problem usually gets solved.

          And therein lies the problem. For many societal needs, and for development to occur there is not a buck to be made, at least not in the short-term of investor interest in a project.

          • Rusty Shackleford 3.1.1.2.1

            Taking cash from one group and giving it to another doesn’t make society as a whole better off.

            Usually, problems that persist are the result of previous policy, or of ill defined property rights. People don’t live in poverty by choice. Someone is usually imposing it on them.

            • rosy 3.1.1.2.1.1

              It certainly does – at least if that cash is used to provide services that the market cannot/will not. And look at who is not paying a fair living wage if you want to find the source of poverty. There are hundreds of years of data in socialist and capitalist societies to trawl through if you’re really interested in the real world of the poor and disenfranchised, but you’re not really, you’d rather go on about a selfish, brutal ideology that supports the survival of the richest at the expense of the majority.

              • Rusty Shackleford

                Can you give an example of some goods and services the market refuses to provide?

                Shrieking about poor people is well and good. It may seem funny to you, but I’m not actually in favor of poverty. Business owners don’t pay low wages because they are meanies they pay what will give themselves a return. If they don’t they go out of business and then nobody has a job.

                We do, in fact, live in a societal/economic model that favors a few at the expense of the majority. It’s called corporatism. Large businesses wrangle the massive power we have invested in the govt for their own ends at the expense of small businesses and free citizens. Read a few pages of Rothbard or Mises and you will see this theme come up time and again.

                • KJT

                  I agree about corporatism, but that is the natural consequence of unregulated market capitalism.

                  The cheats prosper.

                • rosy

                  For goodness sake Rusty go and read a bit of history and geography not ideology and you might just find out for yourself.

                  Or assuming you’re an white male maybe check up on land clearances and the like that may suggest why your forefathers thought it was a good idea to start afresh here and plan not to implement the same sort of society here (even though they failed in that regard).

            • The Voice of Reason 3.1.1.2.1.2

              “Taking cash from one group and giving it to another doesn’t make society as a whole better off.”
               
              Yes, it does. If the sum taken is from a wealthy minority, then it makes the poorer majority better off. Society, as a whole, is better off.

              That’s the reverse of the current arrangement, by the way.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.3

          The problem that you’re over looking is that there usually isn’t a lot of money to be made from government services. As the services are usually necessary we tax people and ensure that it’s done anyway.

    • Vicky32 3.2

      Don’t they know, a lot can go wrong in a town when council work isn’t done properly.

      True! 🙂

      • Colonial Viper 3.2.1

        It’d be a shame if water and power were accidentally turned off to random households in certain well to do neighbourhoods. Damn ‘administrative errors’!

  4. The Voice of Reason 4

    Jaysus, you really are out of your depth. I take you don’t realise just how far away the rest of the universe is? We have the ability to use energy from the sun and the resources of planet earth and, er, that’s it.

    • Rusty Shackleford 4.1

      We take plenty of stuff for granted today that would have seemed indistinguishable from magic 100 years ago.

      • The Voice of Reason 4.1.1

        Rusty, if we ever get a resource from outside our planetary system, it won’t be magic, it’ll be the end of everything Einstein has taught us. We are simply too far away.
         
        What’s your personal policy on education? Should it be user pays? If so, you owe me and everyone else here a fucken fortune.

        • lprent 4.1.1.1

          Not really too far away. Just we have far too little energy to move even small amounts of mass very far or fast enough. We sure as hell cannot play with the required energy level in our biosphere. No unless we wanted to find out what heat pollution really looks like.

          The required energy levels would cause me to get worried about the back effects in local space as well. It would be simpler to just make ourselves live longer and embark on slow one way journeys.

          But this all seems quite off topic.

        • Rusty Shackleford 4.1.1.2

          It’s impossible to predict technology in the future. The is a buck to be made from creating more resources. Someone will come up with a way.

          Ideologically? Yes, user pays for education. As I’ve said, we enjoy plenty of other goods that didn’t exist 50 years ago for peanuts (all free market-ish). Why are we spending so much cash on education.

          Pragmatically? Get govt out of the education business. We can still fund education out of the public purse, just let people who know what they are doing sort out the actual producing education part. Considering the fact I wouldn’t leave govt bureaucrats in charge of producing my underpants, I don’t know why people are so gung-ho about letting them do important stuff like educating kids.

          I don’t see how I owe you any cash. Were my parents supposed to home school me? How could they if they were working for the govt January to mid May to pay taxes? (fyi, accusing someone of being a hypocrite doesn’t actually make that person wrong.)
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

          • The Voice of Reason 4.1.1.2.1

            Nah, you don’t owe me any cash; I couldn’t take it in good conscience, because you haven’t learned a thing.

          • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.2.2

            The is a buck to be made from creating more resources.

            This doesn’t work. Unless you are God or similar.

            How could they if they were working for the govt January to mid May to pay taxes?

            And mid May to end Jul to pay for your shitty little nappies and other sundries. What was the ROI on that I wonder?

          • lprent 4.1.1.2.3

            Nope. It is impossible to predict future technology accurately.

            However technology is dependent on basic science, and that allows you to predict limits to technology based on known science. At present we are in one of those slow periods in science where new fields are not opening despite the enormous resources being put into it. We have been stuck in it for most of the last century. We are getting steady refinements of what is already known. Historicaly such periods have lasted centuries or thousands of years.

            You can be an optimist, and I am. But don’t think that wishing something is true is the same as it actually being true.

            • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.2.3.1

              Human civilisation has about 25 years (being generous) to make a breakthrough or three; it will become too costly and energy intensive to do so after that point.

  5. Rusty, Troll of the week – best ignored.

    • Rusty Shackleford 5.1

      Uh oh, someone with an opposing view. Quick! Shut down the debate!

      • The Voice of Reason 5.1.1

        Come see the violence inherent in the statist!

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2

        That’s just it Rusty – you don’t have an opposing view but a delusional one.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.3

        Uh oh, someone with an opposing view. Quick! Shut down the debate!

        View cannot be opposing if it is based on a fictional, counterfactual parallel universe.

        Damn DTB, slid in ahead of me 🙂

  6. The best thing Rusty has said all week

    Laws/Justice- Going to agree on this. My ideas here aren’t fully formed.

    Not the whole sentence, just the last six words! Mate, you have not got a clue; you spout ideology around a capitalist doctrine, but have no concept of what the world would actually be like if people had not actually created mechanisms to promote systems of government (big and small), laws, safety nets, health protections, labour laws, etc.
     
    Many people have influenced this; maybe you should gen up on the likes of Robert Owen (http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-owen.htm) he was a capitalist, but also conducted a great social experiment which proved the value of investing people. Sadly the doctrine of ‘look after number one’ only serves to destruct society and create a culture of greed, resentment and anger.

  7. Ten Miles Over 7

    The decision to sack everyone after failing to gain concessions from unions reminds me of game theory.

    Given the choice of all workers keeping their jobs with reduced remuneration, or some workers losing their jobs while the rest maintain their levels of remuneration, what choice would you make?
    What if you were guaranteed that you wouldn’t be one of those to lose their job? Would that influence your decision (i.e. would you act for the greater good or would you act in your own self-interest)?

    Of course the sacking of everyone was probably not an anticipated move, otherwise the decisions might have been different.

    • Colonial Viper 7.1

      A high level of worker solidarity and a high willingness to take disruptive action are also factors to be taken into account in any game theory simulation 🙂

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