- Date published:
9:30 pm, October 10th, 2011 - 102 comments
Categories: debt / deficit, john key - Tags: double downgrade, lies, Tranz Rail eyes
John Key’s economic credibility was shattered by the double downgrade. Now, his personal credibility has been lost after he claimed that Standard & Poor’s said a Labour government would lead to another downgrade. S&P could not have been more blunt: “At no stage have we said that a rating downgrade was more likely if there were a change of Government”.
Desperately backtracking, Key is now saying that it wasn’t his own claim, it was given to him by some anonymous ‘source’ in an email he’s suddenly come up with – he didn’t present it when he made the claim in the House.
Key won’t name the person who sent he claims sent him this fallacious ’email’. In fact, despite S&P’s statement, he seems to be standing by the accusation. The ’email’ is probably just made up; we have no reason to believe it is genuine.
It’s clear to anyone watching the video of his press conference that Key is lying like a snake. It’s those ‘Tranzrail eyes’ again. As Audrey Young says: “He gets that Tranzrail look in his eyes and you just know he is hiding something. ”
Whether there really was an email or not, Key tried to fool Parliament and you and me, his employers, into think that Standard & Poor’s had unequivocally stated that a Labour government would make a downgrade more likely. That wasn’t the case and, whether he really was relying on an email from some anonymous source or not, Key shouldn’t have tried to trick us into thinking it was.
In related news, the first government debt auction since the double downgrade happened last week. It saw the interest rate the government pays rise 0.12%. Doesn’t sound like much? Well, interest rates for government debt had been falling for the past 3 months, so the turnaround is significant – the counter-factual where no double downgrade occurred probably would have seen further rate falls. And this is just the first week’s results.
Remember, Treasury has $60 billion of bonds on issue. It will have to borrow another $10 billion or so plus reissue $8 billion in the coming year. Even at only 0.12% extra interest, just those new and reissued bonds will cost $22 million a year.
Thanks, Mr Muddle. Would you mind paying us that $22m on your way out? At least it would be some sign that you’re finally accepting responsibility for the damage you’ve wrought.
Update. Just watching the Youtube that I’ve embedded above where Key reads out the email at the press conference.
Sounds like it’s a real email but Key still misled everyone by claiming that S&P had said something they did not say based on an anonymous email, which made a claim that he did not attempt to confirm with S&P before repeating the claim as fact as if S&P had said it in Parliament.
Man, Key gets hammered by the journos afterwards. He gets a whine in his voice as he tries to defend himself.
Interestingly, the email also says that S&P warned that a downgrade would lead to higher interest rates for all New Zealanders. Seems Key was lying about there being no interest rate hikes too.
Key’s now stuck in the position where he is defending this anonymous email (and his credibility) against the flat out denials from S&P. Just the kind of fight we want the PM to be having during an international financial crisis when the government is borrowing $300m a week.
There’s one thing that all media sharks love when they have had enough of being poodles. Blood in the water.
In related news, the first government debt auction since the double downgrade happened last week. It saw the interest rate the government pays rise 0.12%. Doesn’t sound like much? Well, interest rates for government debt had been falling for the past 3 months, so the turnaround is significant…
Not really. Rates had been at near-record lows, and still are near there. Any bump would push them up. Remember, that’s partly why the Govt increased its borrowing recently to take advantage of the record low rates (which in turn pushed up the likelihood of a rates increase).
Here is some rather more rational commentary from Radio NZ:
The 2023 bond (longest term, so likely most stable) was launched at the start of June. Except for two weeks in June, the yeild had fallen for every week for four months. It was down 0.8%.
Now, suddenly, it’s up 0.12%. Right after the double downgrade. Coincidence?
Forget looking at bond yields and yield curves. Waste of time. They are all being intentionally and artificially suppressed at the moment via massive printing of the USD (and Euro, and Yen, and…).
What you need to examine are our CDS spreads
Um QSF how do you feel about Key telling fibs, and rather big ones?
It’s a simple case of he said, (s)he said. Just like Phil Goff vs director of the SIS.
As long as no-one is besmirching the reputation of the other (which I think Phil actually did by insisting that he wants a support person to accompany him to any SIS briefing), honourable (ahem) gentlemen (ahem) can disagree and I won’t pretend to know who is right or wrong.
what a load of specious rubbish queeny!! come on lad!! you can do better….that’s a good brain you have there….. stop wasting your time with this self deluding fantasy you seem stuck in…. it’s not too late to wake up to reality……… really…..
how do we get that TV3 clip onto Youtube where we can more easily distribute it?
S&P quoted on TV3: “At no stage have we said that a rating downgrade was more likely if there were a change of govt.”
Key said they said: “if there was a change of Government, that downgrade would be much more likely”.
And now an email suddenly appears from a secret squirel who can’t be named, and all Key can say is “I wasn’t at the meeting.”
Is S&P lying to cover it’s own ass about meddling in NZ politics? Did the squirel mess up big time by ‘interpreting’ the meeting wrong? Is Key just passing the buck onto some email squirel that doesn’t exist?
Man this smells bad. Remember GW Bush’s classic “I’m not a fact checker”?
“Remember GW Bush’s classic “I’m not a fact checker”?”
GW Bush and his official spokesmen’s assertions.
Yeah nah, I don’t remember that one either. Wha happen?
Turns out after searching that it’s a quote commonly and wrongly attributed to Bush himself. It was reported in The Washington Post in late 2002 that a ‘senior Bush administration official’ said “The president of the United States is not a fact-checker,” responding to the fact that Bush had not seen the “footnote” in the National Intelligence Estimate about Iraqi WMD which the State Department voiced its doubts about the claim that Saddam sought uranium in Niger.
I did you wrong Mr Bush, I apologise.
interest.co.nz has put their press conference video on Youtube. Red Alert has a copy here. The Youtube link is here.
Did you catch the Freudian slip at the beginning of the video?
Pathetic how the RWNJ’s have been almost completely silent on a couple of the major news stories recently. They are failing to spin with only 44 days until the election.
Yes that slip tells the real story.
“They are failing to spin with only 44 days until the election.”
Maybe they’ve done so much spinning for the last few years that they’re all dizzy?
“Whether there really was an email or not, Key tried to fool Parliament and you and me, his employers, into think that Standard & Poor’s had unequivocally stated that a Labour government would make a downgrade more likely.”
What was he trying to say, anyway? That if Labour were currently in government, eg had won the 2008 election with Helen, that the downgrades we just had would have come sooner? That’s doubtful, due to the tax cuts being a large reason for the downgrade.
Is he saying that if Labour were to win the next election, that we will have another downgrade then? Seems unlikely, since we’re on Stable outlook.
Is he saying that if we didn’t have the downgrade now, and then Labour won the upcoming election, we would then definitely have the downgrade? If so, that would only be because of National’s poor management in the last 3 years, similar to how Obama has been dumped on by Bush.
And that Lanth, is it in a nutshell. Well put.
Speaking after the double downgrade, Key said that s&p said, before the downgrade, that labour winning the election would increase the chance of a downgrade, presumably because of the incoming government’s policies.
But seeing as we got that downgrade without Labour being in power, his argument that it would have been more likely under Labour (P>1?, I didn’t think that was possible) seems kind of stupid, even if it wasn’t a lie.
Yes I noted his problems with either numeracy or his position in spacetime the other day: http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-05102011/#comment-381360
He should be happy to be branded a liar over this, ‘cos if he’s not a liar he’s a frickin cabbage.
Perhaps he’s lying cabbage.
A fricken lying cabbage? After the knife slitting gesture in Parliament last week I get the impression he is losing it.
He looks like he’s losing it, in that clip.
So, that increases the chances of Labour winning, yay. Ahhh, hang on a minute, then they will inherit an unprecedented once in 100 year depression and if AFKTT is correct the beginning of the reversal of the industrial revolution. I wouldn’t envy them.
If it wasn’t for the stupidity of the asset sales, I’d be hoping for National to have to weather the coming storm! So from there we could truly hold the narrative to move forward into a new Politics, of the 99%.
Labour is up to it. The rate things are going, by 2014 AFKTT will have his own TV show.
They would have to really step up and prove themselves to abandon all this Cold War thinking that pollutes every aspect of our political and economic thinking, and move FORWARD to a politics of the 99%.
I’m still not convinced they’ve lost faith in neo-liberalism! At least none of them have told me they have yet, surely now would be a good time!
Not from what I’ve seen. They’re still hanging on to infinite growth and the meme that use of resources doesn’t matter.
This SOB is grasping at straws – nice to see this vulpine on the run.
Shit wish I’d been in that McDonald’s because I would have asked him to supersize me a nice leftist government.
How anyone can go ga-ga over this amorphous mass is beyond me.
Interviewer : So John you promised NZ a brighter future . In the last campaign which hasnt happened and now you promised a second brighter future.
John :No actually I didnt know promise a brighter future the whole brighter future thing just appeared on the bill board beside my picture. Im not sure how that happened someone els was responsible for that.
Interviewer: What about about closing the wage gap with Australia that wage gap its getting bigger.
John: yeah well its aspirational actually I just forgot to say it want happen under National yeah argh any other questions.
Interview: Actually John you have made dozens of these broken promises does that not concern you.
John; Nope Nope couldnt care a monkeys actually Yeah well its Labour’s fault actually everything everything is Labour’s fault.
Bang on Westie Craig.
This business shows that Key does not have a mind of his own. People out there email him with one liners, that he doesn’t question or fact-check, and then spouts it out in Parliament.
This is why he was hunted by the National Party. They wanted someone to be the acceptable face of National. Someone who would be fed the lines to say and would say them.
Maintaining a false Identity takes energy and as time goes by you will eventually fuck up and people will see who you really are. Key fucked up and the edifice crumbled.
Well done Patrick Gower – that was must-watch (and played over again), primetime, gold-standard TV.
‘Maintaining a false Identity takes energy and as time goes by you will eventually fuck up and people will see who you really are. Key fucked up and the edifice crumbled.’
Well said, William. He started out with a load of bluster and then gradually went through the Porky Pig stage of tripping over his words ending with a barely audible whimper. His old friend, the smart-arse one-liner led to his downfall.
Wow. Either a liar or an idiot and we don’t (technically) know which. Wonder if he might be both?
“I don’t reveal my sources”
FFS – it’s not the Pentagon Papers. It’s a flippant line by a public official that turned out to be a lie. I’m wondering if its OIA-able from the PM’s office (not that they’d release it, even if it was)?
I wonder who the phantom emailer is.
Have Bill & Mary Smith been in touch again?
Does Johnny have other imaginary friends?
Maybe it was from Moonbeam. Meow.
A document was referred to in the House. Can it be subject to an OIA?
which document CV?
i do not recall any relevant references made to documentation during his comments, especially any concerning the anonymous email, which is why i asked the question below about the stating of sources and the qualification required for the tabling of information.
Key looks out of his depth and begins using the defence mechanisms of an adolscent boy caught out by the Principal and then trying to shift the blame onto an unnamed “all the others”. Which is, as all teachers know, the defence favoured by a liar.
Yep, that’s what got me while watching the video. The whole thing seemed to be set up so that Jonkey could blame someone else. An unnamed someone else that he won’t have to produce.
“It’s not my fault.”
“So whose fault is it?”
Damn that’s genius! School children would not get away with that.
I notice there’s an unusual absence of RWNJs keeping us weirdos who think John Key is a liar in check on this thread. Aw we miss you guys come back! Where is King Kong to put us in our place with a crushing critique when you need him?
Even my staunch Tory brother has reluctantly conceded
that we’re seeing John Key’s new low –
from blame that party,
to blame that natural event,
to blame that person,
to blame the unnamed source.
At this rate, the PM is starting to run out of things and people to blame.
The alignment of the planets will be next.
Sometime in 2012 isn’t it???
God that’s an awful performance.
Even if the email is real (which seems unlikely) he’s totally caught out by his words in the house.
No-one would ever in a million years interpret his words to mean what he claims they mean and every journo in the room knows it. They’re face to face with a fraud, a charlatan, a seen-through snake-oil salesman and his phoney-baloney pitch isn’t fooling any of them anymore.
He doesn’t even offer a defence – there isn’t really one available to him. All he can do is keep saying “I don’t know, I wasn’t there, I can’t say”.
But you did say, John, that’s the lie. And every squirming denial is just digging a deeper hole.
Keep digging, I say. Dig yourself the fuck back to Hawaii and never darken our door again.
Its on days like this Key wonders why he does this piss-ant job in a piss-ant country when he could be enjoying his multi-millions in Hawaii with big important people.
Hes putting up with it until he has implimented changes that will secure the skyrocketing wealth for his 1%ers and he has his hands on the silverware that are state owned assets I reckon Viper.
Or as the way things are going he’ll lose the election and fuck off back to Hawaii. Labour win and Key puts on an awful american accent, and blames the whole world for the crushing of his great economic plan for the future. The one where he sells everything of value to his mates, on the understanding that his ‘blind’ trusts are also cut in for a lump of the cake.
Pure speculation here but, when Key is reading the email does anyone else get a nauseous feeling like you’re listening to something written in a hurry by a National PR monkey, or by Key himself? Love the 10 second smirk from 0:28 when it’s about how awesome National is. Anyone else feel nauseous at that point?
Yeah I did, but I have had a lot of coffee tonight. 😀
The line “your unwavering commitment to getting New Zealand’s balance sheet sorted for the long term” smells quite similar to bullshit, doesn’t it?
It’s the phrasing Key and English use all the time but virtually no-one else in NZ believes it, especially not economists.
“The line “your unwavering commitment to getting New Zealand’s balance sheet sorted for the long term” smells quite similar to bullshit, doesn’t it?”
Ah yes that’s the one. Thank you felix well spotted.
The line “your unwavering commitment to getting New Zealand’s balance sheet sorted for the long term” smells quite similar to bullshit, doesn’t it?
– Sure does –
I imagine that puking on Shonky shoes is not a good thing in a news conference.
Why didn’t he get the information confirmed from a 3rd party, why didn’t the MSM ask that question.
Too true. Also, what’s with this “I don’t reveal my sources” lark? He’s not an informant, a reporter or some such, he is the prime minister. Sure, he’s technically within his rights to withhold that information if he chooses, but it behoves someone in his position to be straight up with the public on what informs their conclusions, especially since he has already put his “source” on the spot by grandstanding with their information in the first place.
Has anyone ever accused Helen Clark or Phil Goff of lying? How does the Honourable Mr. Key get away with it?
It’s a bit rich. The Standard calling for truth, I mean.
Your leader is lying to the country. Watch the TV3 video. Guess you are OK with that.
No one can call for truth while wearing a partisan hat.
I imagine that in his previous life as currency trader, Key could lie through his teeth and his punishment would be a million dollar bonus. In the world of politics, it’s a little different. Give the guy a break, he’s still learning the job.
Oh, the irony of Key having to defend his credibility while standing in front of an Aussie flag – the result of this ace financial gambler having continuously needled Gillard, and so bullishly bet on a losing team.
That is something a few politicians have done – I wouldn’t read too much into it.
Ross, Key was a bit embarrassingly and unacceptably over the top in his constant sledging of Gillard about national rugby teams.
So now all we need is the AB’s to come up short against the Aussies and the League team to forget how to play. And then Gillard can have fun at his expense, and Key’s populatity goes down the crapper.
let’s refresh our memory of what the Prime Minister actually said in the House, from Hansard:
“But I will say this: when Standard and Poor’s was giving a meeting in New Zealand about a month ago, what it did say was that there was about a 30 percent chance that we would be downgraded. That is what happens when one is on a negative outlook. It did go on to say, though, that if there was a change of Government, that downgrade would be much more likely.”
If there was an email, the PM would have stated he was referencing it. He did not
If there was any possibility of the statement being true, he would have confirmed with S&P. He did not.
if he was making it up as he went along . . . well we have the transcript don’t we!
Important to note Hansard says ‘it did go on to say ‘
in the House the PM actually said ‘ they did go on to say’
who knows what he will have said by the time Hansard is hard bound on this issue
Thankfully, we have the video evidence as well as the Hansard (which the MPs are allowed to alter).
I need a clip of the TV3 edit on Youtube, don’t know how, somebody here must have the technical skills!
sorry it took longer than expected, got interrupted, here you go
a small detour ,
If Members of the House cannot table information from a major news network how can the PM make statements based on a private anonymous email? In the House a Member can refer openly to personal experience but i thought the physical source of second or third party information had to be declared, even if the actual author of said information can be supressed.
“Hon John Boscawen: I seek leave to table a statement from the Prime Minister on 19 September—
Mr SPEAKER: Is this a press statement, or a statement published by the press?
Hon John Boscawen: It is a statement from Mr Key, as quoted on the 3 News website.
Mr SPEAKER: On what site?
Hon John Boscawen: On the 3 News website.
Mr SPEAKER: We do not table statements off websites of the media.”
I would genuinely like to know why a major news network is not a credible source of information yet a secret squirrel email can be quoted freely and without any reference to its existence.
freedom Really good point.
Can someone please direct me to some video footage of John Key (that mendacious wretch) telling the truth? Is there any?
The whole story stinks to high heaven even without S&P’s denial. If S&P were genuinely interfering in domestic politics, would they downgrade us now? Or would they have done so during the nine years of Michael Cullen as Finance Minister? If they were really interfering we’d have to say “National just got shafted”.
The crass stupidity of the throat slitting gesture, the even more monumental stupidity of seeking to justify it with a lame excuse rather than apologising (and resigning – for a more contemptible display you cannot imagine – a cut-throat gesture during an attempted suicide!). This latest miserable lie to the House and the stupid dog ate my homework excuses for that.
Mr. Smile-and-Wave has been replaced with an electorally toxic bumbling fucktard. Yay for NZ, go the All Blacks!
in this video he is not telling the truth but at least he is being honest about who he is
Stuff have hastily buried this story. why?
Can’t go round showing how venal our PM really is. That would be too much like real journalism.
And yet, he is going to trounce Goff and Labour in the next election.
Only in your dreams and our nightmares.
Brett Dale, does your ” yet” relate to Keys’ dishonesty or just his general incompetence?
The former is in a hurry tripping up the latter.
Btw, for clarification, the former is not Brett and the latter is not Key.
Yet National keep going up in the polls.
Kiwis are blind to the smiling JK face, dumbed down or just caught up with the celebrity status?
Bill English is at least more honest!!!
‘Mr Muddle gets a credibility downgrade’
I am a bit confused here. Can some please explain how someone with zero credibility can have his credibility downgraded?
From the beginning Key has been a con artist. For a while, like many con artists, he was able to get away with it. But now the shit is hitting the fan ‘big time’ his utter emptiness is in full view, The emperor has no clothes. Never did. It’s just that people imagined he did.
This is a worldwide phenomenon, of course. Ordinary people are being screwed everywhere by bastards like Key. And now they are starting to revolt. The Occupy Wall Street movement is just the start..
This from the Independent UK today:
‘Youth unemployment: The angry millions.’
‘Ahhh, hang on a minute, then they will inherit an unprecedented once in 100 year depression and if AFKTT is correct the beginning of the reversal of the industrial revolution. I wouldn’t envy them.
Labour is up to it. The rate things are going, by 2014 AFKTT will have his own TV show.’
I did a couple of TV interviews 4 years ago. The local station got closed down shortly afterwards. Too much truth?
By the way, it’s not ‘an unprecedented once in 100 year depression’ we are facing: it is the end of a system that has been operating for 400 years. That may be one reason why so few people ‘get it’. Collpase of long-standing arrangements is just as incomprehensible to them as the fall of the Roman Empire was to the Romans.
The big difference is, this collapse will be very much faster than the fall of the Roman Empire.
It will be interesting to see whether we still have television in 2014. NZ is better placed than many nations to maintain an electricity supply.
A little long, but well worth reading ‘Emotional Morons’
Not so hilarious for the people of the district, who lost the only sane alternative to the largely dysfuntional crud churned out by mainstream media based in Orcland.
Do you think the people in “Orcland” were in on it?
It’s being framed, by those who are prepared to admit it in economic terms, as a once in 100year depression.
But to your point about NZ maintaining electricity supply, that I guess will be helped if Labour retains our assets, but I still wouldn’t envy them politically to take over just as the shit really hits the fan….
Really it would be nice if we could turf them all out
Whether or not we keep the power assets at this juncture is not actually as important as it might seem since renationalising them would be a quick process.
Yep, once even the politicians and economists realise that money is nothing it’s just a law change.
I think so and computers/internet for all in 2030+ as well. After that it may get a little tricky – especially if we haven’t killed capitalism completely.
The issue is the maintenance of both local and international internet infrastructure post-peak. NZ will be OK on the electricity front, thank goodness.
Best case scenario for notebook life these days is sub 8 years, and for desktops, its sub 12 years. Power supplies, hard disks, motherboards etc all fail and getting replacements/repairs done in an environment of post-peak declining industrial complexity will be tough.
Many of those systems (and subsystems) are not designed to be repairable anyways, just throw-away, with the assumption you can get new imported or off the shelf at will. We’re going to end up regretting that.
I’m of the opinion that we can make all of that here in NZ as well as doing better on the recycling front – once we put our minds to it and stop paying the rich for being rich and thus opening our economy (the real one of resources) up.
true enough cv but that just means that key and his ilk get to do the deals and make it going both ways.
If Prime Minister John Key ‘deliberately attempt(ed) to mislead the House or a
committee (by way of statement, evidence, or petition) – then that is allegedly ‘contempt of the House’.
(However – only an MP can make a complaint to the Speaker over alleged ‘contempt of the House’).
Check it out for yourself – Parliamentary ‘Standing Orders’ 2008:
” 401 Examples of contempts
Without limiting the generality of Standing Order 400, the House
may treat as a contempt any of the following:
(b) deliberately attempting to mislead the House or a
committee (by way of statement, evidence, or petition):”
I’ve just checked with Parliamentary staff – Parliament is not ‘dissolved’ until 20 October 2011, and ‘government’ continues until the election……
So – a complaint for ‘contempt of the House’ could still be laid with the Speaker – if Prime Minister John Key ‘deliberately attempt(ed) to mislead the House or a committee (by way of statement, evidence, or petition).
Independent Public Watchdog
Candidate for Epsom
Campaigning against ‘white collar’ CRIME, CORPORATE WELFARE’,
CORRUPTION – and its root cause – PRIVATISATION.
It (Standard and Poors) did go on to say, though, if there was a change of Government, that downgrade would be much more likely – John Key
“At no stage have we said that a rating downgrade was more likely if there were a change of Government”. – Standard and Poors
JOHN KEY YOU FUCKING LYING SCUMBAG !!!
Those who think NZ will be able to maintain a fully functioning grid far into the future need to think seriously about the blackouts that have ocurred in Auckland. (The last time there was a prolonged cut oil was cheap enough to burn in diesel generators while ‘solutions’ were implemented using oil-dependent machinery.)
Cables break when trees fall on them; transformers fail when they overheat or when corrosion eats away some vital component; bearings of turbines and cooling systems wear out, lightning strikes …… there is an almost endless list of things that can go wrong which are currently fixed fairly soon after failure by teams of blokes arriving in tricks with all the gear they need. Thirty years ago NZ was awash with stuff and people who knew how to make stuff: now most of the stuff we need is brought in via ‘just in time’ (or more likely a week after we needed it) delivery. And most of the people who could make stuff and repair stuff have retired or have died. (All that before we factor in increasing climate instability and ever more ferocious weather conditions.)
Do you really think ‘the kids’ who have been misled into doing courses in tourism, hotel management, cooking, media studies, cultural sensitivity etc. will find their studies of any use to society or to themselves a decade from now?
Which brings us full circle, since Shonkey will undoubtedly continue to lie to everyone who will listen about the future of tourism.
“Those who think NZ will be able to maintain a fully functioning grid far into the future…”
Nope, but I do think that they can retrain to more practical trades and that we have enough knowledge and basic skill that we will be able to maintain and develop industrial processes that will meet our needs. The climate is a problem but I think being in the subtropics in the middle of an ocean will help us there as well.
“…and then he gets to sit in, talking to his kitten”
I was reading the comments on a newspaper article about JKs latest round of bullshit and someone asked why the PMs approval ratings were so high when so many people seem against him.
What is the deal with the polls? Do they even ask anyone? Because as far as I can tell most of what I hear, not just on the net but when talking to people IRL no one will admit to liking him (barring occasional RW comments which are usually well outnumbered)
It’s an amazing piece of footage. It shows Key in the very uncomfortable position of having to explain himself – and you can tell that he’s covering up a lie. He’s lied and has been caught out; his facial expression, tone of speech, and body language gives him away.
I think that the Left have discovered a new meme for John Key: liar.