Mt Roskill by election – cooperating parties cooperate shock!

Written By: - Date published: 7:02 am, August 31st, 2016 - 96 comments
Categories: by-election, greens, labour - Tags: ,

If Phil Goff wins the Auckland mayoralty there will be a by-election in Mt Roskill. Building on their MOU, Labour and the Greens may cooperate:

Labour, Greens eye by-election deal

A deal is likely to be on the cards in Mt Roskill between the Labour Party and the Green Party if a by-election takes place later this year.

A deal in Mt Roskill could mean the Green Party would not stand a candidate in the seat, instead urging its supporters to back Labour. Green Party co-Leader Metiria Turei says she’s open to the idea. “The point of the MOU we have with Labour is to form the space to have these kinds of conversations about the best electoral success for both Labour and the Greens,” she says. …

Read on for a good, neutral account. Unlike this opinion piece from the same outlet:

Labour hypocrisy over Mount Roskill ‘dirty deal’

The candidate who will benefit from the Labour-Green deal in Mount Roskill has hypocrite written all over him.

Michael Wood supposedly hates dirty electorate deals. In fact these very words came from his mouth just two years ago. …

And so on. To be fair, maybe Wood deserves a bit of gentle flack, he does seem to have had plenty of fun with “dirty deals” rhetoric himself.

But here’s some differences between the hypothetical Mt Roskill and the Nat dirty deals. (1) Labour and The Greens have a formal MOU, it is public and well known that they are working and will work together. (2) The Greens couldn’t win Mt Roskill, so it makes sense for them to step aside to give Labour a better shot. (3) Both of those factors are unlike the Nats “dirty deals” where they gift electorates that they could win to puppet parties in order to artificially increase right-wing MP numbers and public funding.

Expect to see plenty more “dirty deals” rants as Labour and the Greens work together next year. Fertile ground for a good frothy rant if you’re that way inclined, but the more accurate headlines would be that cooperating parties cooperate. Shocker!

96 comments on “Mt Roskill by election – cooperating parties cooperate shock! ”

  1. Puckish Rogue 1

    You keep telling yourself that 🙂

    • Bunji 1.1

      Electorate seats are FPP, not MMP, so it makes sense that those from a similar perspective unite to give the most likely winner the best chance – and the Greens aren’t going to win Mt Roskill. It’s why we had a 2 party system when we had FPP.

      Epsom was/is quite different – it’s trying to manipulate the outcome of parliament as a whole under MMP, using the 1-seat rule to get others into parliament and distort the House as a whole. Get rid of that rule, and you lose the ‘dirty deal’ tag. Amusing thing being that Act failed to get anyone extra in the last 2 elections, so National just lost themselves a seat. (edit: that being the other thing – National would win if they wanted to, even with Nat/Act vote splitting)

      It’s why there’s never been the same venom about Ohariu – it was only ever going to bring Peter Dunne in, so while we may joke about him being a poodle, it was more National not wanting to vote-split and have Labour come through in an FPP contest. Them’s FPP rules.

      (Answer is of course to lose the 1-seat rule and lower the threshold to ~2.5% in my opinion)

      • Lanthanide 1.1.1

        Statistically, each rotten borough is worth 0.5 seats in the house to the party doing the deal.

        So on average, National get a +1 seat voting advantage over what they otherwise would have, by gifting Epsom and Ohariu to other minor parties.

        Rob Salmond has the workings behind this finding: http://polity.co.nz/content/even-non-coattail-electorate-deals-can-create-unfair-advantage

      • Psycho Milt 1.1.2

        Amusing thing being that Act failed to get anyone extra in the last 2 elections, so National just lost themselves a seat.

        They actually gained one. Sure they lost an electorate seat, but the number of MPs they get is determined by their share of the party vote, not how many electorates they win, so they didn’t end up with one fewer MP. And the one they gained is the ACT MP for Epsom. This is effectively a National seat as the party holding it is entirely dependent on National for its Parliamentary presence, but the seat doesn’t count as a National one for party vote share purposes, so it’s an extra.

        • Lanthanide 1.1.2.1

          Yip, see the link above that explains the maths behind this.

          Basically National still get to keep their number of list seats, and the extra electorate seat bumps out the last-place-getting list seat. There’s approximately a 50-50 chance that the last-place-getting list seat would have been a Labour/left-seat, in which case the right come out ahead by preventing the left from getting a seat. If it was a National/right-seat, then its a straight substitution for the right and they gain no advantage.

          So, on average, each rotten borough = 0.5 seat gain for the party making the deal.

      • mosa 1.1.3

        When we voted too retain MMP it was with the proviso that changes promised to make the system fairer would be enacted , it was a major reason why the public voted too retain it , that and they saw through the reason the referendum was held in the first place.
        John Keys attempt too try and get a more FPP system in place by promoting the least proportional supplementary choice in the referendum was an attempt too return too the days of two party rule.
        Judith Collins as Justice minister responsible for enacting the changes to MMP ignored the vote and refused to make the changes we had voted for.
        A complete charade and a waste of tax payers money as they were never going to abide by the vote for making MMP fairer, but its a National government after all and they dont do fair.

  2. Keith 2

    Ohariu Belmont MP Peter Dunne is owned by the National Party as is Epsom definitely a National seat, everyone knows it as does Seymour.

    But the dirty deal here gives NZ an overtly right wing schizophrenic Nat alter ego that is enourmously useful for them, one that also allows blame to be apportioned to ACT if opinion goes against a policy they don’t have the balls to front. And ACT only exists again because National says it can. Marvellous democracy in action and not a hint of rorting the system.

    Seymour also knows he would be toast if he ever voted against National when it counted, of course that is when there isn’t one of their contrived differences of opinion where he can agree to disagree, but being a pseudo Nat MP, that’s fine with him I’m sure. Just means remembering his lines at crucial times. Fools me everytime….not!

  3. srylands 3

    Really? Firstly there are no ‘right wing’ MPs in the New Zealand parliament.

    On the main issue… The deal is depriving Green Party supporters from the ability to vote for a green candidate. You are assuming that these voters are happy to vote for a Labour candidate instead.

    You can rationslise all you want. But anyone reading this will just laugh out loud at you..

    There is nothing wrong with this deal. It is just politics. But saying it is different is just plain silly. Still I had a little laugh to start the day.

    • Puckish Rogue 3.1

      Basically if its National doing a deal its “dirty” and an affront to democracy but its “co-operating” when Labour/Greens do it

      Hope that helps 🙂

      • Leftie 3.1.1

        No, Puckish Rogue that doesn’t help because it is wrong.
        The difference is that Labour and Greens have a formal MoU that is public knowledge, unlike National that do it’s deals in underhanded, (often secretive), ways.

        • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1.1

          Labour did it first remember 🙂

          • McFlock 3.1.1.1.1

            bullshit.

            • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1.1.1.1

              How else could the Greens win Coromandel if not without the urging of Helen Clark for Labour voters to vote Green, it worked then and National just took that lesson on board and continued on with it

              • McFlock

                Ah, but you said “Labour did it first”.
                Tell that to Mark Thomas in 1996.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Well played, I had forgotten about that. So Labour learned from National and continued it on, all good.

                  • McFlock

                    With the exception that the Labour candidate in Coromandel wasn’t going to win in that safe nat seat anyway, whereas national nobble their candidates to stop them winning, so the allied party gets shored up by an electorate MP.

        • Mike Bond 3.1.1.2

          So it was not public knowledge that National had done a deal the previous elections? How come we all knew about the deal? You are just being a typical left hypocrite. It is politics and call it dirty if you want it goes both ways!

          • Chris 3.1.1.2.1

            Leftie’s not a left hypocrite, he’s a shill for the Labour Party. There’s a big difference. That said, shills for the Labour Party are almost always hypocrites of the highest order, as you’ve correctly observed. They’re also the most dangerous predator threatening the effectiveness of democratic politics in New Zealand today.

    • Lanthanide 3.2

      The deal is depriving Green Party supporters from the ability to vote for a green candidate. You are assuming that these voters are happy to vote for a Labour candidate instead.

      If such voters don’t like the MOU that the Green party and Labour party have come up with, then they are free to vote for some other party, or not vote at all.

      The Greens are not saying “You have to vote for Labour”. They are saying “You should vote for Labour”.

      You can rationslise all you want. But anyone reading this will just laugh out loud at you..

      Or rather, people will laugh out loud at you.

      There is nothing wrong with this deal. It is just politics. But saying it is different is just plain silly. Still I had a little laugh to start the day.

      It is different in degree, if not different in kind. If you want to focus on the “kind” and ignore the “degree”, then sure, go ahead.

      • Hanswurst 3.2.1

        It is different in kind. National are foregoing seats they would win in order to augment their presence in the house by means of sock-puppets. The Greens would be attempting to increase (or maintain) the Left presence by reducing the split in the voting for it.

    • Gabby 3.3

      If Seymore Cock is to the right of Ponyboy’s Greasers, then he’s the right wing, innit?

  4. Colonial Viper 4

    Talking about an agreement is promising, now let’s see if that talking about an agreement leads to an actual agreement.

  5. weizguy 5

    The fundamental difference relates to the gaming of the FPP element of MMP. The effect of the Epsom deal is to distort the shape of parliament. The Mount Roskill “deal” doesn’t do that – it recognises that support for the left is split between multiple parties and that standing two left candidates is counter-productive.

    We need better journalists.

    • AB 5.1

      Quite – Epsom is a ploy that effectively distorts the proportionality of parliament. The L-G MOU does not do that – there is a fundamental qualitative difference.

  6. mikesh 6

    The Green Party has always claimed to be interested only in the “party vote”. There ain’t no party vote in a bye-election.

    • Indeed. The only point of Green electorate candidates has been to be present at candidate debates and explain why people should give their party vote to the Greens. Some people give their electorate votes anyway, but it’s not clear how many of those are actually Green or Bust, and how many would consider voting for a Labour candidate under the right circumstances.

      While there isn’t a party vote in a by-election, there is of course a media platform. So the Greens are giving up something if they decide not to stand a candidate, so there does need to be some give and take from Labour in order for such a deal to make sense. But in principle I think it’s reasonable for the Greens to stand aside given they really don’t care about electorate seats.

  7. mikesh 7

    The Green Party has always claimed only to be interested in the “party vote”. There ain’t no party vote in a bye-election.

  8. Mr Righty 8

    Classic White Knight syndrome from the leftards as they scramble to convince each other that their own dirty deal is really just a grubby shade of Gray.
    At least National stood a candidate in the electorates. Nice comment about the journalists because let’s face it, the whole world is out to get you,….yawn.

    [Let this through, but Mr Righty, in future, avoid insults like ‘leftard’. It makes you look like a particularly dull witted troll. TRP]

    • Johan 8.1

      Mr Righty: What a pathetic meaningless little rant, your username explains it all. It is about time that the parties of the left, learned how to play “hard-ball” politics. The fact that we live in an MMP type of political environment, gives the astute certain advantages.
      If you want to use words like “grubby” and “dirty” you need to look at Shonkey’s legacy, a destructive force in a country which use to have opportunities for all its citizens.

      • keith ross 8.1.1

        when Nats do it they raid a news office using the might of the police if someone possibly heard about their agreement ,let alone published it as the Greens and Labour have. Clearly the greens think that this will help to further empower their party having this agreement with Labour ,so the imaginary green voter should be glad that their party is doing all it can to advance.

    • Lanthanide 8.2

      At least National stood a candidate in the electorates.

      So what you’re saying is that National were under-handed and saying one thing while doing another.

      In contrast, Labour and the Greens are up-front and clear about what they’re doing, and why they’re doing it.

      • Add to that that what the Greens are considering doing here doesn’t actually get any extra seats for either party in a general election, all it does is change the makeup of the Labour caucus to include extra electorate MPs if they win, and direct any supporters of their coalition to the Labour candidate in a unity vote.

        Wheras what National does with ACT and UF is designed to net them an extra seat for their coalition, even though neither party has any significant party vote to speak of.

        It’s different in the same way that it would be different for either party to support a New Zealand First candidate back before they routinely polled above 5%- because nobody’s trying to make overhang seats, they’re just talking about whether it makes sense for a candidate that can’t win an electorate to withdraw so as not to split the electorate vote.

    • At least National stood a candidate in the electorates.

      They stood a candidate and then tipped voters the wink to vote for a different party’s candidate. This is admirable how, exactly?

  9. Rodel 9

    To Labour and the Greens. Welcome to the 21sr century..sigh..

  10. Infused 10

    Defend your flour man.

    • Muttonbird 10.1

      The flour man is Goldsmith, not Wood.

    • Lanthanide 10.2

      If National and ACT had made the same deal that Labour and the Greens have, and not stood Goldstein in Epsom, then Michael wouldn’t have had to bring the bag of flour as a stand in.

      Labour and the Greens are very transparent and up-front about exactly what they are doing, to the point that they are not standing a candidate in the electorate, so no-one can mistake their intentions.

      National and ACT did not do that, they played a dirty game, they tried to have their cake and eat it.

      • Nessalt 10.2.1

        So as long as you have a manifesto and an agreeement it makes these kinds of deals for power legitimate.

        Yet the left openly need and desire winston peters to gain power, whose party NZ first will commit to no such outstanding act of openness, and that’s quite all right too as the left can then gain power with help from the extreme party that is NZ first.

        So a grubby deal is ok if the other parties have a nice, clean and open deal. gotcha

        If people only critically analyse what you want to be critically analysed then it’s not really critical analysis is it? it’s neither.

        • Lanthanide 10.2.1.1

          Sorry, I have no idea what you’re trying to say. I’ve read your comment 5 times and it doesn’t make sense.

          • Nessalt 10.2.1.1.1

            On one hand you have an apparently clean deal, yet on the other you need to make back room concessions and deals to achieve power, with NZ first. one good deed doesn’t cancel the a comparable bad one

            • Lanthanide 10.2.1.1.1.1

              But everyone will have to make “back room deals” with NZFirst.

              Since everyone’s on a level playing field when dealing with NZFirst, it doesn’t really have any bearing on anything.

              Labour don’t have to make a deal with the Greens, but they are choosing to, and doing it in a very public and transparent way.

              National didn’t have to make a deal with ACT, but they chose to, and did it in a public and grubby way.

              • Nessalt

                Nationals deal with act wasn’t that grubby though was it? it was no worse than labour colluding with KDC to unseat the national party.

                • Barfly

                  When you speak do you hear an echo?

                • Lanthanide

                  “Nationals deal with act wasn’t that grubby though was it?”

                  On the cup of tea that they explicitly invited the media to come and record, but then claimed was private, Key and Banks talked about how Don Brash was a funny fellow, and how all of Winston Peter’s supporters were dying so they didn’t have to worry about them, and how nasty Labour are.

                  They deliberately made their own candidate lose – who would otherwise have won – purely so they could gain a seat advantage in the house.

                  They pretended like they weren’t making a deal, while also tacitly saying that they were.

                  So yes, grubby.

                  “it was no worse than labour colluding with KDC to unseat the national party.”
                  Except that they didn’t. If you can find any public statement from Labour saying they supported or approved of Kim Dotcom, Laila Harre, Hone or Internet-Mana, then produce it. Otherwise you’re just making shit up. Again.

                • Except Labour openly tried to win Te Tai Tokerau, much to the frustration of people who supported the Mana Party being in parliament, so they kinda did the opposite of that.

                  Labour has been pretty firm since going into opposition that they don’t support campaigning for overhang seats. Hell, they’ve even gone further than I would have gone and taken a stance against the MMP lifeboat provision where an electorate candidate can get a sub-5% party vote party into parliament.

                  Also, when Labour and the Greens make an electoral deal, they make the text of it public, they tell voters clearly what they’re going to do, and leave it to the voters to make a decision on whether they agree it’s clean or not. National tries to wink and nudge its way through the process and spin it to the public so they will buy it. Can you see the distinction there? That’s what we think is what makes National’s deals grubby, not that they’re deals between political parties, because there’s nothing inherently wrong with parties doing deals between themselves, if they’re clear to voters what they’re doing, and if their membership has a say in whether the deal goes ahead.

  11. Enough is Enough 11

    r0b – a more credible response would have been an acknowledgment that National and Act were strategically clever in Epsom, and now it is time to follow that winning strategy.

    It was never dirty. They were open about what they were doing. They weren’t having the cup of tea to discuss the weather. They were there to inform National supporters that it was fine to vote for Banks.

    What is the difference between an MOU and a handshake deal in front of the cameras. They are either both dirty, or both election winning co-operation between teams on the same side. To say they are different is taking partisan blindness to a whole new level.

    For the record I am deeply opposed to the Green Party not putting up candidates in electorates. I gave up my Labour Party membership because they turned their backs on workers in the 80s. They have only half come back to where they were prior to 1984. The Green party is a true left wing party. We need that party to the lead the next government and to do so we need as much exposure in every single electorate.

    Just remember National still ran a candidate in Epsom.

    • It was indeed “strategically clever” of National to keep ACT alive by gifting it a seat, because there was no way ACT was going to get into Parliament otherwise, and by keeping it alive National gets a sock puppet that not only provides it with an additional seat that doesn’t get included in its party vote share, but also provides plausible deniability when introducing right-wing policies like charter schools (“We had to! Our sock puppet had such skilled negotiators!”).

      None of the above “strategic cleverness” applies to the Labour/Green approach to this by-election, which is good because, in the NACT case, the “strategic cleverness” is entirely compatible with “ethical standards that would shame a weasel.”

    • Lanthanide 11.2

      It was never dirty. They were open about what they were doing. They weren’t having the cup of tea to discuss the weather. They were there to inform National supporters that it was fine to vote for Banks.

      Then they shouldn’t have stood Goldsmith in Epsom.

      They did, ergo they were saying one thing, and doing another, and that is not being “open”.

      Just remember National still ran a candidate in Epsom.

      Yes, and that is why this is different than what National did.

      So, you’ve acknowledged that it is different, and are still trying to pretend like it’s no different. Double-think much?

      • Phil 11.2.1

        Then they shouldn’t have stood Goldsmith in Epsom.

        You know people in Epsom get a party vote too, right?
        Goldsmith was completely up front during the election campaign: I want your party vote, do what you want with your electorate vote.

        Up and down the country, in marginal seats, the Greens were giving the same message to left wing voters during the campaign: we want your party vote, do what you want with your electorate vote.

        Additionally, in 1999, the Greens and Labour did a deal in the Coromandel, to guarantee the Greens would make it into parliament. The Greens got over 5% in the end, but it was touch and go for most of the campaign and without the deal in the Coromandel it’s questionable they would have made the threshold.

        • Lanthanide 11.2.1.1

          Goldsmith was completely up front during the election campaign: I want your party vote, do what you want with your electorate vote.

          So up-front, that he was seen taking down Vote For Goldsmith election hoardings, and refused to turn up to candidate debates because he didn’t want to give the impression that he was an acceptable candidate to vote for.

          If you can find evidence of Green candidates refusing to turn up to debates, and taking down hoardings to vote for them, then you might have an accurate analogy.

          I’ve heard about the 1999 Coromandel ‘deal’ but have never seen any concrete proof about what happened then and there.

          Similarly people bring up Jim Anderton in Wigram, but as I’ve lived almost my entire life in the Wigram electorate, and my parents always voted left, I can tell you there was no explicit or implicit public ‘deal’ between Labour and Jim Anderton in Wigram.

          • Puckish Rogue 11.2.1.1.1

            Theres this:

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=16899

            Labour leader Helen Clark used the poll on the eve of the Green Party’s election campaign launch to signal to local Labour supporters to give their constituency vote to the Greens’ Jeanette Fitzsimons.

            In the process she ankle-tapped the Labour candidate, Margaret Hawkeswood. It is hoped that Jeanette Fitzsimons will win the seat and deliver Labour an insurance policy against having to rely on New Zealand First to govern.

            Cruel? Yes. But on the latest polls Labour can no longer be confident of forming a two-party coalition with the Alliance.

            • Lanthanide 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Seems like something happened, but there’s no actual quote of what Clark said, or indeed any detail on how she “signalled” anyone to do anything.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Margaret Hawkeswood is taking Helen Clark’s “statement of the obvious” with some difficulty, even though it has been drummed into her by the party hierarchy that tactical voting will come into play. She got just 12 per cent of the vote in 1996, when she stood for a third time in Coromandel.

                “I have deep feelings about honesty and integrity and I’ve made a commitment to my supporters to be out there.

                “But if it becomes a cliff-hanger, to get rid of National they will vote accordingly.”

                You’d have to admit the circumstantial evidence is looking pretty strong at the moment

                • Lanthanide

                  Yes, and that’s what I said. Try reading carefully next time:

                  Seems like something happened, but there’s no actual quote of what Clark said

                  I’m not denying something happened.

                  I actually meant to say “unfortunately” in that comment, but it seems I didn’t type it.

                  It’s unfortunate the detail of what happened wasn’t captured.

          • te reo putake 11.2.1.1.2

            A quirky boundary change put me inside the Coromandel electorate in 99, Lanthanide. My recollection was that there was no formal announcement, nor any direct encouragement from Labour to vote for Jeanette. However, tactical voting was widely discussed in the local paper and in the national media. There can’t have been many left voters in Coromandel who didn’t understand the maths of the matter.

            I wasn’t involved in the local LEC, but I bet there weren’t many candidate hoardings put up. Party Vote Labour only, I suspect.

            • McFlock 11.2.1.1.2.1

              I still think that the main difference, even if Clark winked slyly as opposed to openly stating the obvious, is that National would walk over Epsom and probably Ohariu if they genuinely tried to win the seat. But they choose to sacrifice one seat in the hope of getting a couple of coat-tail MPs.

              Coromandel seems to be pretty safely blue.

      • Enough is Enough 11.2.2

        How can you honestly say they weren’t open. Blind Freddy could see what they were doing and telling their supporters to do.

        It was different in application, but no different in its intention.

        In order to get into government they told their supporters to vote for a potential coalition partner. That sentence will be true for all parties come 2017.

        • Lanthanide 11.2.2.1

          How can you honestly say they weren’t open. Blind Freddy could see what they were doing and telling their supporters to do.

          Neither John Key, Goldsmith, or anyone else involved in the National campaign told voters in Epsom to vote for Banks.

          Contrast to this by-election, where the Greens are telling people to vote for Woods.

          One is open and transparent, the other is not.

          How can you honestly not see a difference?

          In order to get into government they told their supporters to vote for a potential coalition partner.

          They told their supporters to vote for a potential coalition partner *instead* of voting for themselves, in a seat that they would otherwise easily win.

          Compare that to The Conservatives, where they refused to do any deals, and repeatedly said that if people wanted a National-led government they should vote for National, and not the Conservatives.

          That sentence will be true for all parties come 2017.

          No, it won’t. Do you think ACT is going to say vote for National, not us? Do you think Mana is going to say vote for Labour, not us? Do you think Peter Dunne is going to say vote for National, not me?

          It is quite likely that Labour and the Greens may say those statements, in certain circumstances, about each other. I expect that if they do so when talking about electorates, they won’t stand candidates in those electorates. It remains to be seen exactly what they’ll do in the election, as it is a different game than a by-election as others have noted.

          If they say “vote for X candidate” while standing their own, then I will be quite happy to brand them as being as bad as National-ACT, although the circumstances may still be different; eg National would easily win Epsom if they wanted, but they choose to throw it instead. Whereas any agreements between Labour and Greens are more likely to be “if both of us stand, we’ll both loose, but if one of us stands, we might win”.

          • Enough is Enough 11.2.2.1.1

            Winning is everything in politics.

            You can rub yourself raw being pompous about what is “dirty” and what is not.

            Consider this, Epsom voters had a choice whether to follow the direction of National and ACT. They could have refused to play the game but they were still given a choice.

            If you pull a candidate there is no choice for the voter.

            Neither strategy is dirty. Its a means to an end. Winning is everything.

            • Lanthanide 11.2.2.1.1.1

              Winning is everything in politics.

              You can rub yourself raw being pompous about what is “dirty” and what is not.

              So for you, the end justifies the means. Got it.

              If you pull a candidate there is no choice for the voter.

              They can choose to vote for any candidate, or no candidate if they don’t think any of the candidates available best represent their interests. The Greens are not saying “you must vote for Labour under pain of death”.

              • Enough is Enough

                Greens are not saying “you must vote for Labour under pain of death”. And neither was National – In fact they left their candidate in there just to prove the point.

                They simply indicated to their supporters that if they wanted a hard right evil government it might be preferable to give the ACT candidate a tick. But if you don’t want to that’s fine, our guy is still standing.

                National could have taken the choice away by leaving Goldsmith out al together.

                Of course the End justifies the means. Especially when there is nothing at all wrong with the means.

                Its lovely being all righteous in opposition. I would prefer we had a Green lead government, so whatever legal means it takes to get their. I’m in

      • Scott 11.2.3

        I think National were right (strategically) to run a candidate in Epsom and quite a good one at that with a high list place. They were essentially saying that even if you vote as we want you to, you’ll still have this man here (Goldsmith) looking after you, but get ACT in as well. Like a proxy electorate MP in addition to the actual one (not sure which one is the proxy).

        Having said that, the Greens should not stand a candidate in Mt Roskill. Labour and the Greens (particularly Labour) are not flush with money so it would be a complete waste. On top of that, the Greens have a minority vote there anyway – its voters never contemplate actually having a Green electorate MP (unless they are stoned at the time) so don’t need placation. Finally, I suspect some Green voters are easily confused, best not make it hard for them.

        • Lanthanide 11.2.3.1

          They were essentially saying that even if you vote as we want you to, you’ll still have this man here (Goldsmith) looking after you.

          Except Goldsmith never turned up to any debates, and was photographed taking his own electoral hoardings down.

          So actually, it’s almost like he didn’t stand as a candidate at all.

          National wanted to have a bob each way – they wanted to pretend they were running a candidate in the electorate, who did his absolute best to sabotage his own vote, while ensuring that their sock puppet would win the electorate with the hopes of bringing in Don Brash on his coattails.

          National would not have been dirty if they had simply been straight up with the public and said they would not run a candidate in Epsom, and told everyone to vote for ACT instead. But they didn’t do that.

        • …most voters are easily confused Scott, it’s not just Green voters, and it’s usually because they don’t care so much about the outcome that they become confused.

          I think also you’re underestimating that there are a significant part of the Green Party support base that would never vote for a Labour candidate, and regard it as being morally equivalent to voting for National. Some of the Green electorate vote absolutely will convert to no-votes if they don’t stand a candidate, but some will decide to switch over, because although they might prefer to vote for a Green, they may also be willing to vote against a Nat. Those are valid decisions for voters to make, and ultimately all the Greens would be doing by withdrawing their candidate is to send a signal that it’s OK as far as the Party as a whole is concerned to unify the electorate vote under Labour.

  12. swordfish 12

    It’ll certainly help.

    While it’s true that most Greens (64%) were already strategically casting their Candidate-Vote for Goff in 2014 (with not much more than a quarter going for their own Green candidate, Barry Coates) … the dynamics are, of course, entirely different in a By-Election.

    The 2 votes in a General Election, allow Green supporters the luxury of casting their all-important Party-Vote for their primary allegiance, the Green Party, and then being free to use their Candidate-Vote strategically. (which in 2014 boosted Goff’s majority by an extra 2100 votes).

    In a (one-vote) By-Election, it’s likely that a reasonable proportion of that 64% (2014 Goff-voting Greens) would want to vote for the Green candidate if there was one (given that they can’t, in effect, have their cake and eat it – as they can at a GE). So, not standing a Green candidate would certainly be a help for Wood.

    But also crucial: the current inclinations of the 3,500 Nats who Candidate-Voted Goff in 2014 (representing almost a quarter of all National Party-Voters).

    Were they simply voting for Goff himself – as a long-standing, high-profile local MP and former Major Party Leader ? (hence, inclined to swing to the Nat candidate now) Or were they former Labour Party-Voters who had swung to National (2005-2008) but still felt the need to cast one of their votes (albeit the less important one) for their old Party ? (which seemed to be the case in the surprising Christchurch East By-Election result, where Labour’s Poto Williams did rather better than the 2011 Party-Vote would have predicted).

    And how many have had a genuine change of heart and swung back to Labour since the last Election ?

    Of Goff’s 18,637 Candidate-Vote:

    11,186 came from Labour Party-Voters

    3463 from National Party-Voters

    2114 from Green Party-Voters

    964 from NZF Party-Voters

    291 from Cons Party-Voters

    619 from Other Party-Voters

    Goff had an 8091 majority.

    >
    >

    Of National’s Parmar’s 10,546 Candidate-Vote

    9544 came from National Party-Voters

    326 from Cons Party-Voters

    256 from ACT Party-Voters

    420 from Other Party-Voters

    >
    >

    If all 3463 of the 2014 National-Goff split-voters (Party / Candidate) voted for the Nat Candidate at the (almost inevitable) up-coming By-Election (assuming everyone else voted as in 2014 – which, of course, won’t happen given the different dynamics, changing allegiances, slightly different constituency profile and so on – but bear with me), then:

    Lab 15,174

    Nat 14,009

    So, Green and Nat voters are pretty crucial here (taking into account lower By-Election turnout as well).

    >
    >
    >

    2014 Mt Roskill Party Vote

    ACT New Zealand … 610 … 2%

    Conservative ……… 1240 … 4%

    Green ………………… 3279 …. 10%

    Internet MANA ……. 304 ….. 1%

    Labour ……………… 12086 … 36%

    Māori …………………. 132 …… 0%

    National ……………. 14275 … 42%

    NZF ……………………. 1805 …… 5%

    United Future ……….. 69 ……. 0%

    >
    >
    >

    2014 Mt Roskill Candidate Vote

    BINDRA … NZF …………. 717 …….. 2%

    COATES .. Green ……….1682 …… 5%

    DAVIE ,…… Con ……….. 1094 ……. 3%

    GOFF ….. Labour …….. 18637 … 57%

    MINTO ….MANA ………. 300 ……..1%

    PARMAR . National … 10546 …. 32%

    >

    GOFF … – Labour majority …. 8091

  13. Michael 13

    Labour could always gift the seat to the Greens by not standing a candidate in the by-election after Goff vacates it. Or does the MOU only work when the Greens have to abandon the contest?

    • Muttonbird 13.1

      You need to get an MOU with your brain before it abandons you.

    • McFlock 13.2

      The nats and labour are fairly close party-vote-wise, while the greens are a distant third and close to NZ1.

      A percentage of the Green voters might tip the Labour candidate vote over the top of the nat, if the Labour candidate vote dips with the departure of Goff. But the percentage of Labour voters in Mt Roskill doing that with a Green candidate would have to be much larger to help the Green candidate beat the nat.

      Basically, if it’s a close contest of 14,000 votes each for the nat and the lab, then a third of Green voters switching might be a handy 800 votes. 14800 votes to lab, lab gets in. 1/3 of lab voters go green, that’s only say 5,000 lab + 2500 grn to the green candidate, the nat gets in.

      Those are for illustrative purposes only, I think most labour folk would go green and vice versa, but basically if you start looking at it based on vote numbers vs proportions, it’s sensible to assist the candidate with the greater support.

    • The Greens don’t want electorates at the moment and regard them as a distraction from the Party Vote. (that may have to change at some point, as the Greens already own Wellington Central, and when other electorates start putting them in first place in the party vote, it may start making sense in terms of winning the party vote to also attempt to win the electorate vote)

      So it wouldn’t really do anything positive for the relationship for Labour to be like “here, have this seat.” The Greens would potentally even be a little annoyed because now they have to spend precious money and effort on an electorate race that’s not winning them Party Votes in the next election.

      Also, the crossover voters from Labour willing to vote for a Green candidate probably wouldn’t be enough to be competitive with National, wheras the Green crossover voters could help Labour win.

  14. Grantoc 14

    Seems to me that your splitting hairs Anthony – a deal is a deal regardless of where you sit in the political spectrum The Nats and Act had a deal with regards to Epsom. Labour and the Greens are cooking up a deal with regards to Mt Roskil. Both are concerned with maximising a political outcome that benefits the dominant partner – National in Epsom and Labour in Mt Roskil.

    Both, if you like, are ‘dirty deals’. Its dancing on the head of a pin to say one is ‘dirty’ because its National and Act but the other is not because its Labour and the Greens, and they’re somehow purer.

    Wood’s problem is that he was so vociferous in opposing National and Acts deal in Epsom that he looks like a hypocrite should he participate in a similar kind of deal making in Mt Roskil. Some would say that he is a hypocrite.

    Perhaps its ok in Mt Roskill because its Labour and the Greens? But actually if its ok for one side of he political spectrum its ok for the other.

    • Lanthanide 14.1

      Both, if you like, are ‘dirty deals’. Its dancing on the head of a pin to say one is ‘dirty’ because its National and Act but the other is not because its Labour and the Greens, and they’re somehow purer.

      No, it’s not dirty because its National and Act. It’s dirty for many other reasons that have already been outlined by myself and others in these comments.

      NO ONE is saying BECAUSE IT IS NATIONAL AND ACT, IT IS DIRTY.

      No one. Seriously. 0 people.

      Learn to read.

      • Enough is Enough 14.1.1

        Lanth – Neither are dirty deals.

        They are both using the electoral rules to their advantage to get a desired result.

        • It depends on what you think an election system is for.

          Is it to determine a winner? Or is it to represent a country fairly?

          If it’s the former, you’re right, anything goes. But I’d contend it’s the latter, and therefore any deal that doesn’t serve that goal is a bad deal, regardless of how clean it is, because it is essentially aiming to cheat people out of the (supposedly) equal potency of their votes.

          • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1.1

            Why doesn’t the Left take such a strong principled stance on shit people actually care about instead of using weird interpretations of electoral rules that no one cares about?

            • Enough is Enough 14.1.1.1.1.1

              Comment of the day. Thanks CV

              • Colonial Viper

                Indeed. It pisses me off that the Status Quo Neoliberal Left are so predictable.

                They’ll make a big fucking deal about shit that matters to not even one in twenty people. But on really big important stuff which impacts the whole nation, they just arse around equivocally with a bet each way and occasional vague promises to do some watered down sorta good sounding but really who knows what.

            • Matthew Whitehead 14.1.1.1.1.2

              Oh, I agree with you that there are more important issues to be principled about. I just expect our representatives to be able to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, and thus make time for things that aren’t completely mission-critical.

          • Enough is Enough 14.1.1.1.2

            How have people been cheated in either arrangement? Every voter knows what they are voting for.

            Except maybe Green voters who won’t get to vote for a candidate that represent their values?

            • Matthew Whitehead 14.1.1.1.2.1

              Green Voters, if they join the Party, can actually vote to determine the list order themselves, so the List absolutely reflects the values of the Green Party’s membership, which is really the best you can do in terms of representing your voters. (As Green voters don’t need to live in a particular place to choose who represents them, unlike people who feel represented by their electorate candidates)

              The people who are cheated, FYI, is everyone who Party Voted for any Party that isn’t UF or ACT in general. UF and ACT get seats they haven’t earned in Parliament at the expense of parties with real, national-level support because of electorate votes and deliberate non-campaigning by National. If we ditched electorates entirely and gave a seat to every party that earned at least 0.83% of the vote, (ie. that won a List seat outright) here is what Parliament should have looked like this term:

              (Counterfactual party list system)
              National: 57
              Labour: 30
              Green: 13
              New Zealand First: 11
              Conservative: 5
              Māori Party: 2
              Internet-Mana: 2

              (Actual)
              National: 60
              Labour: 32
              Green: 14
              New Zealand First: 11
              Māori Party: 2
              ACT: 1
              UF: 1

              Note that National would still have the numbers to govern, but they would need to either rely wholly on the Conservative Party, or flex between engaging NZ1st, the Greens, or the independent Maori MPs and Laila Harre for support. (which to be honest is actually a worse situation as far as I’m personally concerned, but was the right thing for the country IMO. People deserve to see how bad the Conservatives are given so many people are voting for them, just like we deserve to get NZ1st in the numbers we are) Basically, the losers are voters for the Conservatives and Internet-Mana, who between them deserved 7 MPs, the majority of which went to the three largest parties instead.

              If you want to see how the split works out if we leave out IM and the Conservatives, it is:
              National: 61
              Labour: 32
              Greens: 14
              New Zealand First: 11
              Māori Party: 2

              So while National gets stronger numbers with how they did things, they would actually have been able to govern alone if they hadn’t thrown seats at UF and ACT, so even if for some odd reason you believe in our high-threshold system, we still deserved a notably different parliament from what we got.

    • A deal is a deal only when all deals are fundamentially the same.

      But we’ve had several variety of political deals in New Zealand.

      We’ve had the “arrangements” between National and its satellite parties, UF and ACT, where National softballed its electorate campaign in safe seats to let the minor party win. (National can easily win Epsom or Ohariu if it wants to)
      We’ve had the Internet-Mana bloc formation, trying for a lifeboat seat to bring along a joint list, which Labour blocked by winning the electorate vote.
      We had discussions of a deal between the Conservatives and National that never eventuated. (Probably because National didn’t entertain them)
      We’ve had the formation of the Alliance, a meta-party formed out of a bloc of several Left and radical movements in order to contend for the Party vote.
      We may yet have a deal between the Mana and Maori parties to stand aside for each other in certain Maori electorates.

      Voters have judged some of these deals positively, (such as the formation of the Alliance until its eventual implosion) and some negatively. (such as the Internet-Mana bloc/merger) Arguably the only two sets of deals that are similar in this list are United Future and ACT’s current deals with the Nats, and the potential Mana/Maori strategic agreement with the potential for the MOU between the Greens and Labour to include standing aside in key electorates.

      Nobody here is saying that the Mana and Maori parties are doing a dirty deal, you’ll note, so I have to conclude you’re just not a fan of small yet significant distinctions.

      I would class a deal as clean if it’s done visibly to the public and they are given the opportunity to judge the deal as part of the election, even if it aims to do things I think are fundamentally wrong. (like exploit electorate overhang seats) I would more quickly class a deal done entirely behind closed doors as dirty if it involves those things I find fundamentally wrong, sure, hence my opposition to ACT and UF being gifted seats by their benevolent overlords.

      • Mr Righty 14.2.1

        So the voters in Epsom were blind sided by National and didn’t know what they were voting for? Dream on as clearly a National lead government was what they voted for. Problem with the left is it never got to grips with MMP, 2 votes and voters like me split the vote to get the government we want. Best you saddle up your horse of self righteousness and mosey back to the wilderness, along with Little and company.

        • Wendy W 14.2.1.1

          if you like corruption then just carry on voting for them. I stopped.

        • I didn’t say voters were blindsided. I said National tried to spin what they were doing and didn’t communicate openly about the nature of their deal. Epsom voters knew who they were getting in David Seymour, but National didn’t withdraw their own candidate when they were obviously endorsing Seymour, and they did not say to voters that they wanted them to use their electorate vote to gain National’s coalition an extra half seat in Parliament beyond what the Party Vote entitled them to.

          I support voters getting the candidates and parties they want. What I don’t support is people playing games with electorates to create overhang seats, if parties want into parliament they should be campaigning for the Party Vote as well, and anyone that can’t get 1% (well, .83%, but good luck polling around that number accurately) shouldn’t be getting an electorate gifted to them by anyone.

          FYI, if you followed discussions here, you would know I’m a Green (and thus quite familiar with MMP electorate votes, and actually somewhat of an expert on how electoral systems function) and have some pretty negative opinions of Little. 😉

          My “horse of self-righteousness” is just my opinion that the point of having a vote is to represent the populace, so electoral systems should function in a way that does that- without artificial impediments like overhang seats or high Party Vote thresholds. I also in the past have supported NZ First, a party I personally despise, having a right to be in Parliament with 4.5% of the vote, and that the Conservatives should have been in Parliament with their 2-3% results, and I think anyone informed knows they’re nuttier than a group of squirrels. It’s about having a fair and consistent electoral system that isn’t subject to much gaming from political parties, but unfortunately MMP is highly vulnerable to strategic voting.

  15. Sabine 15

    Ahhh
    the opposition parties working together
    its a beauty
    innit?

  16. Wendy W 16

    IT IS FAR WORSE – !!!!
    So to counter this, the new dirty deal is that we have a brand new first New Zealand truly RACIST party, set up by the people we gave a home, trusting they would assimilate into our society.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/nzs-first-political-party-dedicated-to-immigrants-2016082919

    If there is a by-election then a party who takes votes from Labour will cause them to lose the seat.
    I wonder if this is a deliberate endorsement by another political party????? If so, it really is dirty and the first time we have had our democracy overturned by the immigrants we let in.

    WHY can the indians and chinese not stand in their own right for the existing parties and WIN ON MERIT????? Just like democracy says we should.

    Next we will have a JEWISH party….and why dont we have a Presbyterian party too? and a White Early Settler descendent party??.

    This is not our New Zealand I was brought up in. God help us. (or buddah or allah or whoever it is now)

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    Hi,Paying Webworm members such as yourself keep this thing running, so as 2023 draws to close, I wanted to do two things to say a giant, loud “THANKS”. Firstly — I’m giving away 10 Mister Organ blu-rays in New Zealand, and another 10 in America. More details down below.Secondly — ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    4 days ago
  • The Prime Minister's Dream.
    Yesterday saw the State Opening of Parliament, the Speech from the Throne, and then Prime Minister Christopher Luxon’s dream for Aotearoa in his first address. But first the pomp and ceremony, the arrival of the Governor General.Dame Cindy Kiro arrived on the forecourt outside of parliament to a Māori welcome. ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • National’s new MP; the proud part-Maori boy raised in a state house
    Probably not since 1975 have we seen a government take office up against such a wall of protest and complaint. That was highlighted yesterday, the day that the new Parliament was sworn in, with news that King Tuheitia has called a national hui for late January to develop a ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    4 days ago
  • Climate Adam: Battlefield Earth – How War Fuels Climate Catastrophe
    This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). War, conflict and climate change are tearing apart lives across the world. But these aren't separate harms - they're intricately connected. ...
    5 days ago
  • They do not speak for us, and they do not speak for the future
    These dire woeful and intolerant people have been so determinedly going about their small and petulant business, it’s hard to keep up. At the end of the new government’s first woeful week, Audrey Young took the time to count off its various acts of denigration of Te Ao Māori:Review the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • Another attack on te reo
    The new white supremacist government made attacking te reo a key part of its platform, promising to rename government agencies and force them to "communicate primarily in English" (which they already do). But today they've gone further, by trying to cut the pay of public servants who speak te reo: ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • For the record, the Beehive buzz can now be regarded as “official”
    Buzz from the Beehive The biggest buzz we bring you from the Beehive today is that the government’s official website is up and going after being out of action for more than a week. The latest press statement came  from  Education Minister  Eric Stanford, who seized on the 2022 PISA ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: Failed again
    There was another ETS auction this morning. and like all the other ones this year, it failed to clear - meaning that 23 million tons of carbon (15 million ordinary units plus 8 million in the cost containment reserve) went up in smoke. Or rather, they didn't. Being unsold at ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell On The Government’s Assault On Maori
    This isn’t news, but the National-led coalition is mounting a sustained assault on Treaty rights and obligations. Even so, Christopher Luxon has described yesterday’s nationwide protests by Maori as “pretty unfair.” Poor thing. In the NZ Herald, Audrey Young has compiled a useful list of the many, many ways that ...
    5 days ago
  • Rising costs hit farmers hard, but  there’s more  positive news  for  them this  week 
    New Zealand’s dairy industry, the mainstay of the country’s export trade, has  been under  pressure  from rising  costs. Down on the  farm, this  has  been  hitting  hard. But there  was more positive news this week,  first   from the latest Fonterra GDT auction where  prices  rose,  and  then from  a  report ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    5 days ago
  • ROB MacCULLOCH:  Newshub and NZ Herald report misleading garbage about ACT’s van Veldon not follo...
    Rob MacCulloch writes –  In their rush to discredit the new government (which our MainStream Media regard as illegitimate and having no right to enact the democratic will of voters) the NZ Herald and Newshub are arguing ACT’s Deputy Leader Brooke van Veldon is not following Treasury advice ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Top 10 for Wednesday, December 6
    Even many young people who smoke support smokefree policies, fitting in with previous research showing the large majority of people who smoke regret starting and most want to quit. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere on the morning of Wednesday, December ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Eleven years of work.
    Well it didn’t take six months, but the leaks have begun. Yes the good ship Coalition has inadvertently released a confidential cabinet paper into the public domain, discussing their axing of Fair Pay Agreements (FPAs).Oops.Just when you were admiring how smoothly things were going for the new government, they’ve had ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • Why we're missing out on sharply lower inflation
    A wave of new and higher fees, rates and charges will ripple out over the economy in the next 18 months as mayors, councillors, heads of department and price-setters for utilities such as gas, electricity, water and parking ramp up charges. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Just when most ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • How Did We Get Here?
    Hi,Kiwis — keep the evening of December 22nd free. I have a meetup planned, and will send out an invite over the next day or so. This sounds sort of crazy to write, but today will be Tony Stamp’s final Totally Normal column of 2023. Somehow we’ve made it to ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    5 days ago
  • At a glance – Has the greenhouse effect been falsified?
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    6 days ago
  • New Zealaders  have  high expectations of  new  government:  now let’s see if it can deliver?
    The electorate has high expectations of the  new  government.  The question is: can  it  deliver?    Some  might  say  the  signs are not  promising. Protestors   are  already marching in the streets. The  new  Prime Minister has had  little experience of managing  very diverse politicians  in coalition. The economy he  ...
    Point of OrderBy tutere44
    6 days ago
  • You won't believe some of the numbers you have to pull when you're a Finance Minister
    Nicola of Marsden:Yo, normies! We will fix your cost of living worries by giving you a tax cut of 150 dollars. 150! Cash money! Vote National.Various people who can read and count:Actually that's 150 over a fortnight. Not a week, which is how you usually express these things.And actually, it looks ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    6 days ago
  • Pushback
    When this government came to power, it did so on an explicitly white supremacist platform. Undermining the Waitangi Tribunal, removing Māori representation in local government, over-riding the courts which had tried to make their foreshore and seabed legislation work, eradicating te reo from public life, and ultimately trying to repudiate ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Defence ministerial meeting meant Collins missed the Maori Party’s mischief-making capers in Parli...
    Buzz from the Beehive Maybe this is not the best time for our Minister of Defence to have gone overseas. Not when the Maori Party is inviting (or should that be inciting?) its followers to join a revolution in a post which promoted its protest plans with a picture of ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • Threats of war have been followed by an invitation to join the revolution – now let’s see how th...
     A Maori Party post on Instagram invited party followers to ….  Tangata Whenua, Tangata Tiriti, Join the REVOLUTION! & make a stand!  Nationwide Action Day, All details in tiles swipe to see locations.  • This is our 1st hit out and tomorrow Tuesday the 5th is the opening ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • Top 10 for Tuesday, December 4
    The RBNZ governor is citing high net migration and profit-led inflation as factors in the bank’s hawkish stance. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere on the morning of Tuesday, December 5, including:Reserve Bank Governor Adrian Orr says high net migration and ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Nicola Willis' 'show me the money' moment
    Willis has accused labour of “economic vandalism’, while Robertson described her comments as a “desperate diversion from somebody who can't make their tax package add up”. There will now be an intense focus on December 20 to see whether her hyperbole is backed up by true surprises. Photo montage: Lynn ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • CRL costs money but also provides huge benefits
    The City Rail Link has been in the headlines a bit recently so I thought I’d look at some of them. First up, yesterday the NZ Herald ran this piece about the ongoing costs of the CRL. Auckland ratepayers will be saddled with an estimated bill of $220 million each ...
    6 days ago
  • And I don't want the world to see us.
    Is this the most shambolic government in the history of New Zealand? Given that parliament hasn’t even opened they’ve managed quite a list of achievements to date.The Smokefree debacle trading lives for tax cuts, the Trumpian claims of bribery in the Media, an International award for indifference, and today the ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago
  • Cooking the books
    Finance Minister Nicola Willis late yesterday stopped only slightly short of accusing her predecessor Grant Robertson of cooking the books. She complained that the Half Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU), due to be made public on December 20, would show “fiscal cliffs” that would amount to “billions of ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    6 days ago
  • Most people don’t realize how much progress we’ve made on climate change
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections The year was 2015. ‘Uptown Funk’ with Bruno Mars was at the top of the music charts. Jurassic World was the most popular new movie in theaters. And decades of futility in international climate negotiations was about to come to an end in ...
    7 days ago
  • Of Parliamentary Oaths and Clive Boonham
    As a heads-up, I am not one of those people who stay awake at night thinking about weird Culture War nonsense. At least so far as the current Maori/Constitutional arrangements go. In fact, I actually consider it the least important issue facing the day to day lives of New ...
    7 days ago
  • Bearing True Allegiance?
    Strong Words: “We do not consent, we do not surrender, we do not cede, we do not submit; we, the indigenous, are rising. We do not buy into the colonial fictions this House is built upon. Te Pāti Māori pledges allegiance to our mokopuna, our whenua, and Te Tiriti o ...
    7 days ago
  • You cannot be serious
    Some days it feels like the only thing to say is: Seriously? No, really. Seriously?OneSomeone has used their health department access to share data about vaccinations and patients, and inform the world that New Zealanders have been dying in their hundreds of thousands from the evil vaccine. This of course is pure ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 days ago
  • A promise kept: govt pulls the plug on Lake Onslow scheme – but this saving of $16bn is denounced...
    Buzz from the Beehive After $21.8 million was spent on investigations, the plug has been pulled on the Lake Onslow pumped-hydro electricity scheme, The scheme –  that technically could have solved New Zealand’s looming energy shortage, according to its champions – was a key part of the defeated Labour government’s ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    7 days ago
  • CHRIS TROTTER: The Maori Party and Oath of Allegiance
    If those elected to the Māori Seats refuse to take them, then what possible reason could the country have for retaining them?   Chris Trotter writes – Christmas is fast approaching, which, as it does every year, means gearing up for an abstruse general knowledge question. “Who was ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 week ago
  • BRIAN EASTON:  Forward to 2017
    The coalition party agreements are mainly about returning to 2017 when National lost power. They show commonalities but also some serious divergencies. Brian Easton writes The two coalition agreements – one National and ACT, the other National and New Zealand First – are more than policy documents. ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Fossils
    When the new government promised to allow new offshore oil and gas exploration, they were warned that there would be international criticism and reputational damage. Naturally, they arrogantly denied any possibility that that would happen. And then they finally turned up at COP, to criticism from Palau, and a "fossil ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • GEOFFREY MILLER:  NZ’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and Ukraine
    Geoffrey Miller writes – New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    1 week ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the government’s smokefree laws debacle
    The most charitable explanation for National’s behaviour over the smokefree legislation is that they have dutifully fulfilled the wishes of the Big Tobacco lobby and then cast around – incompetently, as it turns out – for excuses that might sell this health policy U-turn to the public. The less charitable ...
    1 week ago
  • Top 10 links at 10 am for Monday, December 4
    As Deb Te Kawa writes in an op-ed, the new Government seems to have immediately bought itself fights with just about everyone. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s my pick of the top 10 news and analysis links elsewhere as of 10 am on Monday December 4, including:Palau’s President ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • Be Honest.
    Let’s begin today by thinking about job interviews.During my career in Software Development I must have interviewed hundreds of people, hired at least a hundred, but few stick in the memory.I remember one guy who was so laid back he was practically horizontal, leaning back in his chair until his ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: New Zealand’s foreign policy resets on AUKUS, Gaza and Ukraine
    New Zealand’s international relations are under new management. And Winston Peters, the new foreign minister, is already setting a change agenda. As expected, this includes a more pro-US positioning when it comes to the Pacific – where Peters will be picking up where he left off. Peters sought to align ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    1 week ago
  • Auckland rail tunnel the world’s most expensive
    Auckland’s city rail link is the most expensive rail project in the world per km, and the CRL boss has described the cost of infrastructure construction in Aotearoa as a crisis. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The 3.5 km City Rail Link (CRL) tunnel under Auckland’s CBD has cost ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    1 week ago
  • First big test coming
    The first big test of the new Government’s approach to Treaty matters is likely to be seen in the return of the Resource Management Act. RMA Minister Chris Bishop has confirmed that he intends to introduce legislation to repeal Labour’s recently passed Natural and Built Environments Act and its ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    1 week ago

  • COP28 National Statement for New Zealand
    Tēnā koutou katoa Mr President, Excellencies, Delegates. An island nation at the bottom of the Pacific, New Zealand is unique.          Our geography, our mountains, lakes, winds and rainfall helps set us up for the future, allowing for nearly 90 per cent of our electricity to come from renewable sources. I’m ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Ministers visit Hawke’s Bay to grasp recovery needs
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon joined Cyclone Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell and Transport and Local Government Minister Simeon Brown, to meet leaders of cyclone and flood-affected regions in the Hawke’s Bay. The visit reinforced the coalition Government’s commitment to support the region and better understand its ongoing requirements, Mr Mitchell says.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand condemns malicious cyber activity
    New Zealand has joined the UK and other partners in condemning malicious cyber activity conducted by the Russian Government, Minister Responsible for the Government Communications Security Bureau Judith Collins says. The statement follows the UK’s attribution today of malicious cyber activity impacting its domestic democratic institutions and processes, as well ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Disestablishment of Te Pūkenga begins
    The Government has begun the process of disestablishing Te Pūkenga as part of its 100-day plan, Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills Penny Simmonds says.  “I have started putting that plan into action and have met with the chair and chief Executive of Te Pūkenga to advise them of my ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Climate Change Minister to attend COP28 in Dubai
    Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will be leaving for Dubai today to attend COP28, the 28th annual UN climate summit, this week. Simon Watts says he will push for accelerated action towards the goals of the Paris Agreement, deliver New Zealand’s national statement and connect with partner countries, private sector leaders ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand to host 2024 Pacific defence meeting
    Defence Minister Judith Collins yesterday announced New Zealand will host next year’s South Pacific Defence Ministers’ Meeting (SPDMM). “Having just returned from this year’s meeting in Nouméa, I witnessed first-hand the value of meeting with my Pacific counterparts to discuss regional security and defence matters. I welcome the opportunity to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Study shows need to remove distractions in class
    The Government is committed to lifting school achievement in the basics and that starts with removing distractions so young people can focus on their learning, Education Minister Erica Stanford says.   The 2022 PISA results released this week found that Kiwi kids ranked 5th in the world for being distracted ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister sets expectations of Commissioner
    Today I met with Police Commissioner Andrew Coster to set out my expectations, which he has agreed to, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. Under section 16(1) of the Policing Act 2008, the Minister can expect the Police Commissioner to deliver on the Government’s direction and priorities, as now outlined in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New Zealand needs a strong and stable ETS
    New Zealand needs a strong and stable Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) that is well placed for the future, after emission units failed to sell for the fourth and final auction of the year, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says.  At today’s auction, 15 million New Zealand units (NZUs) – each ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • PISA results show urgent need to teach the basics
    With 2022 PISA results showing a decline in achievement, Education Minister Erica Stanford is confident that the Coalition Government’s 100-day plan for education will improve outcomes for Kiwi kids.  The 2022 PISA results show a significant decline in the performance of 15-year-old students in maths compared to 2018 and confirms ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Collins leaves for Pacific defence meeting
    Defence Minister Judith Collins today departed for New Caledonia to attend the 8th annual South Pacific Defence Ministers’ meeting (SPDMM). “This meeting is an excellent opportunity to meet face-to-face with my Pacific counterparts to discuss regional security matters and to demonstrate our ongoing commitment to the Pacific,” Judith Collins says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Working for Families gets cost of living boost
    Putting more money in the pockets of hard-working families is a priority of this Coalition Government, starting with an increase to Working for Families, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says. “We are starting our 100-day plan with a laser focus on bringing down the cost of living, because that is what ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Post-Cabinet press conference
    Most weeks, following Cabinet, the Prime Minister holds a press conference for members of the Parliamentary Press Gallery. This page contains the transcripts from those press conferences, which are supplied by Hansard to the Office of the Prime Minister. It is important to note that the transcripts have not been edited ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Lake Onslow pumped hydro scheme scrapped
    The Government has axed the $16 billion Lake Onslow pumped hydro scheme championed by the previous government, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says. “This hugely wasteful project was pouring money down the drain at a time when we need to be reining in spending and focussing on rebuilding the economy and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • NZ welcomes further pause in fighting in Gaza
    New Zealand welcomes the further one-day extension of the pause in fighting, which will allow the delivery of more urgently-needed humanitarian aid into Gaza and the release of more hostages, Foreign Minister Winston Peters said. “The human cost of the conflict is horrific, and New Zealand wants to see the violence ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Condolences on passing of Henry Kissinger
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters today expressed on behalf of the New Zealand Government his condolences to the family of former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, who has passed away at the age of 100 at his home in Connecticut. “While opinions on his legacy are varied, Secretary Kissinger was ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Backing our kids to learn the basics
    Every child deserves a world-leading education, and the Coalition Government is making that a priority as part of its 100-day plan. Education Minister Erica Stanford says that will start with banning cellphone use at school and ensuring all primary students spend one hour on reading, writing, and maths each day. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • US Business Summit Speech – Regional stability through trade
    I would like to begin by echoing the Prime Minister’s thanks to the organisers of this Summit, Fran O’Sullivan and the Auckland Business Chamber.  I want to also acknowledge the many leading exporters, sector representatives, diplomats, and other leaders we have joining us in the room. In particular, I would like ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Keynote Address to the United States Business Summit, Auckland
    Good morning. Thank you, Rosemary, for your warm introduction, and to Fran and Simon for this opportunity to make some brief comments about New Zealand’s relationship with the United States.  This is also a chance to acknowledge my colleague, Minister for Trade Todd McClay, Ambassador Tom Udall, Secretary of Foreign ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • India New Zealand Business Council Speech, India as a Strategic Priority
    Good morning, tēnā koutou and namaskar. Many thanks, Michael, for your warm welcome. I would like to acknowledge the work of the India New Zealand Business Council in facilitating today’s event and for the Council’s broader work in supporting a coordinated approach for lifting New Zealand-India relations. I want to also ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Coalition Government unveils 100-day plan
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has laid out the Coalition Government’s plan for its first 100 days from today. “The last few years have been incredibly tough for so many New Zealanders. People have put their trust in National, ACT and NZ First to steer them towards a better, more prosperous ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • New Zealand welcomes European Parliament vote on the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement
    A significant milestone in ratifying the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement (FTA) was reached last night, with 524 of the 705 member European Parliament voting in favour to approve the agreement. “I’m delighted to hear of the successful vote to approve the NZ-EU FTA in the European Parliament overnight. This is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago

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