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National badly wants Kiwibuild to crash

Written By: - Date published: 8:34 am, October 30th, 2018 - 339 comments
Categories: class war, Economy, housing, infrastructure, Judith Collins, labour, national, phil twyford, Politics, same old national - Tags:

I can understand National’s desire to divert attention away from other events.

From the sounds of it at least three National MPs have major issues to sort through. Labour is doing the right thing by letting them do it all by themselves.

So what does National do?

It attacks Labour’s response to the housing crisis. And hope the mud sticks.

National’s initial strategy was to say why was it taking so long? Why hadn’t Labour built 10,000 or 10% of the total build in the first year?

Of course this comment completely ignores the reality of building homes. It takes years to just get subdivisions through, let alone resource consent for the build and the actual construction.

But this reality is for losers.  National and its supporters are incredulous that Jacinda Ardern and the Labour team have not built lots and lots of houses already.

They do not appear to understand the forces at play that helped cause the problem and which arebeing addressed.  Like rampant immigration that has slowed down.  For a while it did make all of us Auckland house owners feel like we were rich but it was causing huge damage.  For instance rampant homelessness.  And talented 11 year olds having their futures blighted because they and their families were sleeping in the family car.  And remember when Te Puea Marae gave this family somewhere to live and Paula Bennett’s office then replied by smearing the Marae’s chief?

And not to mention teachers moving elsewhere because they could not afford to buy in Auckland.

Labour has been keen to celebrate the early successes of its policies as it has turned the problem around.  So it held an event on the weekend to celebrate some more Kiwibuild houses coming onto the market.

To break with tradition there was not a team of Labour ministers helping to move the furniture into the property.  The symbolism of the first Labour cabinet doing this lasted for decades and set them apart from the tories whose purpose was to clear the house out, not get it ready for ordinary families.

And times are different.  There has been some angst and a whole lot of social media doxing because one of the lucky people is a doctor.  A just qualified doctor with no doubt a huge student loan but nevertheless she is a professional.

And the doxing has come from those who should know better and who don’t understand social memes.

These comments completely miss the point.  Auckland’s real estate market is that stuffed that newly qualified doctors, and teachers and police officers, not to mention factory workers and cleaners, cannot afford to buy new homes.  If the Government has corrected the market so that at least young doctors can afford to buy new houses then things are on the improve.

And shame on National.  To create the crisis and then complain that Labour is not fixing it up quickly enough involves so many levels of boneheaded stupidity.

If you want to see the effects of National’s policies on the housing market at least in Auckland this graph sets it out clearly.

Kiwibuild is not the only policy to address the housing crisis.  There is the supported living apartment announcement, 1,500 additional places for homeless this winter, tenancy law reform, resourcing infrastructure needed for growth, and 6,400 new public housing places by 2022.  And removing the need for Housing Corp to pay the Government a dividend has freed up much needed resources.  To name a few.

It took years to get us into this mess and it will take years to get us out of it.  For National to complain that the Government is not doing enough quickly enough or criticising the Government because one policy does not specifically address all issues is crazy.

Besides the best solution to all of these problems is to build houses, lots and lots of houses.  And this is what Labour intends to do.

339 comments on “National badly wants Kiwibuild to crash ”

  1. tc 1

    Geez Mickey it’s national ! The party with world class hypocrisy and zero concern for the non 1%ers.

    Now imagine a public broadcaster trotting along to Jude with a few pointed questions about their state housing flog off etc. They mouth off because the msm never holds them to account.

    • Gosman 1.1

      As opposed to Labour which seems to be interested in ensuring upper middle income young NZers get access to cheaper houses in the heart of Auckland.

      • Dukeofurl 1.1.1

        Upper middle income ???

        Making rubbish up.
        ” the first group of buyers in the KiwiBuild homes in Papakura were a student, a warehouse worker, a concrete worker, nurses, a student and a stay-at-home mum – people who’d previously been locked out of the housing market.

        • Gosman

          A Stay at home mum somehow can afford a 650,000 dollar house. Yeah right.

          • Chris

            We know nothing about the circumstances of any of the people that qualified for Kiwibuild. Twyford’s answer on RNZ this morning was that the people who qualified had partners with income. I think that answer was possibly given a bit too hastily. A stay at home mum with a cash asset can still receive the DPB. The income from that cash asset still affects entitlement to the main benefit, but the asset itself doesn’t. The asset might’ve come from an inheritance, for example. The cash asset might’ve prevented payment of an accommodation supplement or other add-ons, but an asset doesn’t affect the main benefit. But then that asset might’ve provided the necessary deposit on the Kiwibuild house which brings mortgage repayments low enough to be serviced by weekly benefit payments. This is just an example. It’s very easy to attack the individual, but without more detail the truth gets buried. Especially when you’re dealing with Collins’ mindlessness.

          • Kahu

            She can if she got a chunk of change in a divorce lol

        • Gosman

          Tell you what. You find out about this stay at home mum. I suspect that her partner is probably earning north of 100K

        • Gosman

          Also a student??? Care to explain how a student affords a 650,000 dollar house? I suspect that one involves Mummy and Daddy. In which case you are not only providing upper middle class welfare you are essentially locking in inequality.

      • Gabby 1.1.2

        That’ll free up another house down the line won’t it gozzer.

      • Craig H 1.1.3

        They sound like absolute bastards – I’m sure the voters will punish them accordingly.

      • peterlepaysan 1.1.4

        Where is your evidence, citations, documentations to back up your post?

        You are a disgusting idiot. Like your political idols.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.1.5

        National created and ignored the housing crisis in NZ, and denied and did nothing about people living in cars, hovels or nothing. This despicable and disgraceful behaviour by National was grossly negligent and irresponsible.

        National and their apologists on this page – should all be hanging their heads in quiet SHAME.

    • Zack Brando 1.2

      Well, Labour seem to think “middle New Zealanders” are earning around $180,000 per year .. I’d consider that not just out-of-touch but GROSSLY out-of-touch!

      Yes, middle New Zealanders are all doctors and marketing executives LMFAO~!! That thinking is on par with National’s old line, “There is no housing crisis” – which many of their followers still chant.

      I guess I’m just out-of-touch and need to get into the real world where people actually earn at least $80,000+ each per year. It’s very eye-opening to realize that at least half of Kiwi workers earn over $80,000.

      • Dukeofurl 1.2.1

        Auckland average household incomes are well over $100k. nation wide its $107K ( 2017)

    • cathy 1.3

      of course they are trying desperately to divert attention from their own meltdown.

      and oravida collins is claiming she’s not a bully, yeah right.

  2. Gareth 2

    Seems like a harmful digital communication to me. Doxing should be jumped on with both boots.

  3. Chris T 3

    If people think giving a subsidised 4 bedroom house to a “house lottery” winning couple with no kids, with a soon to be 200 plus thousand dollar income is going to do anything to help your mass average kiwi to get into the housing market, they are delusional.

    • Cinny 3.1

      One example, of one couple…….for all you know Chris, the rest of the kiwibuild home owners are average kiwi’s.

      People judge so very fast, best someone interviews the rest of the kiwibuild home owners and do a bloody survey to put your mind at ease.

      Maybe you could do the survey yourself Chris, make a day of it, here’s a clipboard.

    • Dukeofurl 3.2

      They arent subsidised houses. The $650k and under is what brand new homes are going for in that area

      Who are you going to believe , Trademe or your lying eyes

      • Gosman 3.2.1

        If that is correct then the Government has not made a blind bit of difference to housing affordability as a result of their Kiwibuild policy.

      • Enough is Enough 3.2.2

        If the price is not being subsidized – why are they wasting so much time on it?

        These resources should be diverted to a mass state home build.

        • mickysavage

          It is a mass private home build. Economies of scale are bringing the price down. And a house is a house.

          • Dukeofurl

            The market had a distain for houses at the lower end.

            While the numbers wanting to buy at the bottom end were competing with investors- result prices were pushed up and out of first home buyers reach

            Thats now changed with balloting and no investors allowed – until the numbers of homes available comes back into balance.

            • Dukeofurl

              Availability at the lower end , in the competition with investors, is what matters.

              Affordability is improved just by having many more new houses at that price point, and importantly qualify for 10% deposit.

              Surely you would know G , that economics will say the bigger supply will hold or lower prices.

          • Gosman

            How many MORE houses are being built as a result of Kiwibuild that were not already planned to be built?

            • patricia bremner

              No one can prove a negative GOS, that’s why you ask.

            • mickysavage


              • Gosman

                No, that is the total number of houses INCLUDED in Kiwibuild. That isn’t the total number of ADDITIONAL houses built as a RESULT of Kiwibuild. There is a subtle but distinct difference.

            • Dukeofurl

              if the houses were going to be built ( for these particular houses) then why would the builder/developer sell to the Government at a lower price than he could make under his own steam and with high priced commission sales staff.

              • Gosman

                Because the Government is able to provide a degree of security around the selling of said properties that the developer would not have otherwise. Not a huge difference but possibly enough to help out. Hence it has an impact just a small one.

                • Dukeofurl

                  So you know admit without the government, the builder wouldnt have gone ahead.

                  The people buying arent so interested in your point scoring and quibbles

                  • Gosman

                    Maybe, maybe not. We don’t know because there hasn’t been any real analysis on this. What is clear is that the difference is not great and that it isn’t addressing the real problem which is a shortage of suitable land to build suitable houses on.

                    • Dukeofurl

                      You seem absolutely sure they would have been built.

                      Just the same way you are absolutely sure concrete workers and warehouse workers are upper middle income ?

                      The ‘big idea’ is for 100,000 homes. Maybe we could look back at the last 5 years at numbers new houses sold in the KB house price range and look at the numbers 5 years hence ( or even 2 -3 yrs)

                    • Gosman

                      Don’t forget the Student and the stay at home mum Duke. Isn’t it amazing that people earning zero income can afford 650,000 dollar houses now. Labour is truly amazing /sarc

            • Duncan

              You’re deluded Gosman if you think the answer to the housing crisis is just building more and more houses. What is the point if kiwis cannot afford them.
              The point of kiwibuild is to build house that are in the bottom quartile of prices and so make more of them affordable to more kiwis.
              Ignoring this is disingenuous at best. I doubt if the wealthy are going to suffer because they cannot find anyone to build their 2 million dollar mansion.

          • patricia bremner

            Micky readers should go to Housing New Zealand/news. State houses and supported living updates given monthly.

    • No you are that one. It is what it is. The gnats pushed everything down and let the problem fester and turn rancid. The gnats did that and LIED that there was no problem. Gnat = scum. And because the problem affects so many the solution will be wide too. It is basic stuff yet gnat lovers can’t even get their tiny heads around it – thus showing again why that rabble of losers should never get power again.

      • Chris T 3.3.1

        I never said that National weren’t to blame for the situation we are currently in.

        I said the way kiwibuild has been designed it won’t solve anything.

        It is developer subsidising, gifting instant massive profit return to the high middle to upper income.

        Wouldn’t surprise me if this particular couple went straight to the bank first thing next year when he graduates and buys another house borrowing on the real value of this house, and rents this one out.

        God knows they can afford to.

        • marty mars

          Your inability to iunderstand the magnitude of the problem is similar to your gnat mates inability to see the magnitude of the problem. It would be quaint if it wasnt so dangerous and so out of touch with the average kiwi’s dilemma with housing.

          • Chris T

            Believe me, I understand the size of the problem.

            It is half the reason I am saying this current kiwibuild in it’s present form isn’t going to solve it.

            • marty mars

              So you don’t think it’s even PART of the solution? All or nothing eh which is why you and your gnat mates did NOTHING but pretend there was no problem. Now you bleat on that it’s not enough. What a joke.

              • Dukeofurl

                Chris T knows nothing about housing…. but he sure knows about complaining when a magic wand isnt working

            • bwaghorn

              So under your logic .
              If something isn’t going to 100% solve a problem then don’t do it or anything at all. ??

        • Dukeofurl

          I just showed the price range isnt subsidised. Houses of similar size and construction are the same all over Auckland. What makes the price difference is the price of land.
          Its Takaanini/Papakura so the land is cheaper than a lot of other places.

          As for the nonsense for another house ‘next year’- where do they get the deposit for that?

          Banks arent fools in getting new home buyers highly geared on multiple properties.
          Every fact you are claiming is false

          • Chris T

            Your links are both auctions, so the price is a stab in the dark

            And they are both 2 bedroom, not 4

            • Dukeofurl

              Well they are cheaper than the 4 brm kiwibuild one.
              Plus thats the ‘advertised price’ actual selling price could be lower than $560K range asked for.
              Maybe its another $100k for 4 bedroms I dont know.

              But your claim of subsidized doesnt have a single link to show thats true. And you have the nerve to say otherwise.

              • Ankerrawshark

                KiwiBuild is aimed to allow first home buyers into the market..their rates of home ownership have fallen significantly as greed and an unregulated housing market has pushed prices up. First home buyers have been competing with investors, with investors most often winning. Imho this is despicable. KiwiBuild means first home buyers don’t have to complete with the greedy amongst us and from this point of view it is a great scheme. I am pleased a dr was one of the first to win a ballot (pleased nurses, concrete workers too). Don’t believe people would buy a KiwiBuild if they could genuinely afford something else, because most of us stretch ourselves when buying our first or second home. Ffs the dr will have a huge student debt, plus if can’t buy a home in Auckland will nove to regions or worse still overseas. It is a great scheme.

        • Cinny

          ‘god knows they can afford it’

          yeah ok then judith…

          nek minute she’s pregnant, they are down to one income…..

          • OnceWasTim

            Exactery. So that $200k income that the gNat apologists cite is swallowed up with things like $250 per week day care, paying off student loans, medical care (since our healthcare system is now so run down), and an extra mouth to feed.
            Let alone escalating costs of running a beat up old Mazda (because of an equally run down public transit system) and all the rest of it.
            I’m the first to agree that the efforts of this coalition are not enough – given that we all know the gNatz created a crisis. I notice it every time I cross the Desert Road and go through Waiouru whereby a military village popped up on a hillside in double quick time – something I thought could be replicated in order to house the homeless temporarily (a Crisis you say? call in the military if that’s what it takes and give the buggers something to do as well as providing valuable training).
            But FFS!. Hark at the gNatz crying crocodile tears. Another 3 years had they remained in power and we’d definitely be rivaling the 3rd World.

            • Gosman

              Perhaps the people who need the cheaper houses are the people WITH the kids and extra expenses rather than the ones without.

              • OnceWasTim

                then I take it back – we have already reached 3rd world status.
                And what’s worse is that wannabe toffs such as yourself think it OK to breed (albeit under sophisticated family planning conditions), yet don’t see the less well off to have similar rights.
                Apparently only the well-off should be allowed to breed.
                For me @ Goz – you’ve truly exposed yourself and it ain’t pretty. I’m in awe! You’re the naturally selected

                • Gosman

                  I’ve not mentioned anything about whether someone should have children or not. I don’t kniw why you think I have.

        • Adrian Thornton

          @Chris T, +1, you are exactly right, these people are absolutely delusional if they actually believe that this will solve anything for low wage earners and the working poor….of course it does a great job of saving the children of the rich and middle class from living a life of renting.

          It is just artificially propping up a obscene cancer that exists at the very heart of our country, otherwise known as the housing market.

        • patricia bremner

          They have to agree to live in it for 3 years.
          They can’t rent or sell it.

          • Kahu

            Three years means nothing in grand scheme. House prices will continue to rise. They can sell it on in three years and take a $100 grand windfall at least and trade up.

    • jcuknz 3.4

      Probably with the likely interest rises coming you need to have two professional incomes to pay the mortgage.

    • mickysavage 3.5

      Let me rephrase this for you Chris T.

      If people thinking that building lots and lots of houses will not help solve the housing crisis they are delusional.

      • Gosman 3.5.1

        It will only solve the housing issue IF the houses are additional to what would have been built before. The question that you are not answering is whether Kiwibuild is increases the amount of houses above what would have occurred without Kiwibuild being there. I suspect not at this stage.

        • mickysavage

          Have a look at the graph above. This shows the problem was getting worse and worse. The steps are addressing the shortfall. It will not disappear overnight but Labour does not claim to have magical powers.

          • Gosman

            What steps? There is no evidence yet that Kiwibuild is increasing supply of housing above what would have happened anyway. The real issue is land availability and I am yet to see any real movement on that front. Perhaps there is but Labour is not publicising this information.

            • mickysavage

              It is early days. You are part of the “why hasn’t Labour completely solved the problem yet” brigade.

              • Gosman

                No, I’m part of the “Labour’s policy will likely make not much difference to housing affordability because it isn’t tackling the root of the problem” brigade.

                • adam

                  Yeah but we tried you approach Gossy for 11 years, and it failed.

                  So I’m looking at every word you utter on this issue as a ideological hack struggling to face reality.

                  • Gosman

                    What one change to the RMA was made in the past 11 years that made building houses easier?

                • mickysavage

                  Check out the graph and look at 2008. Notice that demand and supply were the same?

                  Then ask me about which Government will be able to deal with this problem.

                  • Gosman

                    Your graph is cheery picking data. just a couple of years prior to this Supply exceeded demand.

            • Ankerrawshark

              KiwiBuild is aimed to allow first home buyers into the market..their rates of home ownership have fallen significantly as greed and an unregulated housing market has pushed prices up. First home buyers have been competing with investors, with investors most often winning. Imho this is despicable. KiwiBuild means first home buyers don’t have to complete with the greedy amongst us and from this point of view it is a great scheme. I am pleased a dr was one of the first to win a ballot (pleased nurses, concrete workers too). Don’t believe people would buy a KiwiBuild if they could genuinely afford something else, because most of us stretch ourselves when buying our first or second home. Ffs the dr will have a huge student debt, plus if can’t buy a home in Auckland will nove to regions or worse still overseas. It is a great scheme.

              • Gosman

                But is unlikely to reduce the cost of housing (rental as well as freehold) for the vast majority of NZers anytime soon (if at all).

                • Ankerrawshark

                  Maybe gasman. How about we give the coalition 9 years and see what outcomes there are? National had their turn, seemed to do nothing and it got worse. I rather let someone else have a chance to fix it

      • Chris T 3.5.2

        You are missing a few words

        “more” and “that weren’t already being built”

  4. Cinny 4

    Dirty ole judith and her social media issues.

    Now she is stalking kiwibuild home buyers facebook pages, and in her quest for blood, misreads their posts and then publicly embarrasses them.

    Shame on you judith collins, a bitter bullying old lady is what you are.

    And the silence from the media is deafening……..must be hard to hold ones head up when there is no spine attached.

    • OnceWasTim 4.1

      She’d be better off spending her time taking fashion tips from Paula – given her ambition to re-image and lead. She could do it right up until she shoves the knife in.
      Plastic collagen and chlorine bleach seems to be so in vogue these days darling.
      Less of the Boag and more of the Bennett @Jude, even if your pearls are genuine. You might get there eventually Darl

  5. BM 5

    KIwiBuy is a joke.

    You can’t build lots and lots of extra houses unless you can find lots and lots of extra housing construction workers and lots and lots of extra land.

    At the moment you’re just propping up property developers and if anything making the situation worse.

    How can there be any decent correction in property prices if you guys are going to be buying up all the unsold developments or buying up new developments?

    A cynical person may think Kiwi buy is more about keeping the property market bubble inflated then trying to solve housing affordability.

    • mickysavage 5.1

      I take it you are not aware of the work that Auckland Council and the Government have been putting into land supply.

      • Gosman 5.1.1

        I’d be interested in knowing about that. Why isn’t the government trumpeting that instead of these joke Kiwibuild houses going to upper middle income young people.

        • mickysavage

          They are young people and there are a variety of them from different backgrounds. One of them is a Doctor. You should not use that one person to make a conclusion about all of them.

          • Gosman

            Find another of the beneficiaries of Kiwibuild that doesn’t fit the upper middle class tag then. At the moment National has been very successful at framing the debate. If you want to counter that then do so with facts not opinions.

            • mickysavage

              National successful at framing the debate?

              Every time I say those feckers created the problem I hear lots of cheering in the background.

              It will take a lot more than a bit of mud throwing for people to forget that National caused this mess.

              • gsays

                “Every time I say those feckers created the problem I hear lots of cheering in the background.

                It will take a lot more than a bit of mud throwing for people to forget that National caused this mess”

                With that in mind, what is the short phrase that we can come up with to shut the Tories up, a la Key’s ‘show me the money’.

                ‘relax Wreck it Ralph, the adults are cleaning up your mess’.

                Any other suggestions, standarditzas?

                • Stuart Munro

                  This song’s for Nick Smith, who fraudulently drew a ministerial salary for nearly a decade while NZers were being forced to live in cars.

              • Gosman

                The RMA created this problem. National is guilty of not reforming the RMA to allow a lot more houses to be built. But so is Labour.

                • mickysavage

                  National created the problem. Look at the graph above.

                  • Gosman

                    NZ had housing affordability issues in the early 2000’s under Labour. The issue is there is not enough land being made available to build houses fast enough to meet the demand (coupled with high building and compliance costs). National failed to tackle this issue it is true but the solution offered by Labour isn’t going to resolve it either.

                  • Enough is Enough

                    I get that you are tribal and see everything as red v blue, but It is a bit of a stretch to blame one government for the current housing crisis.

                    There has been no serious government housing plan for decades. There was no planning for future substantial population growth under either of the Bolger or Clark governments.

                    Then when that growth did come in the past 10 years the Key government of the day ignored the issue.

                    I am yet to be convinced that there is one house being built and labelled as Kiwibuild, that would not have been built anyway. The construction industry has been at full capacity for years now. Simply buying properties from private developers (who were building these hosues already), and selling them to private individuals does not fix the housing crisis.

                    • gsays

                      There has been a failure of leadership for a long time in many aspects of residential building.
                      The RMA is a small part of it.

                      The neo liberal approach hasn’t helped either.
                      E.g.having apprentices as contractors rather than as employees because….
                      Also the hands off approach to the industry post Chch earthquake, an excellent opportunity to kick start apprenticeships as opposed to awarding contracts to one company and getting migrants in as a temporary work force.

                    • Ed1

                      There was planning for government housing during the Clark years, but you are right that they did not anticipate the changes to government rules that allowed much higher immigration during the Key governments. That immigration was a small number of very wealthy people that bought significant land, industry and houses, and a larger number of people that needed housing but had few assets – such as the student schemes that promised citizenship through a course and guaranteed slave labour job – all resulting in a sharp increase in housing demand – with the response from National being to sell off a lot of state houses, demand money from Housing Corporation, and create special housing areas that ended up increasing the cost of housing . . . .
                      So just how many would have been built had National been returned to government? On their record, that would be none – only months before the election they were still saying there was no crisis. National deliberately made the issue worse – they did not ignore it, the crisis was their deliberate design!
                      And no, the private developers were making more money waiting – they were not building anywhere near the level needed, or anywhere near the number now under way.

          • Enough is Enough

            Its a PR cock up then using them to promote this

      • WeTheBleeple 5.1.2

        I take it these ‘people’ aren’t aware of much more than festering rage, mainstream murkia ( for new talking points), and their bank balances.

        The important stuff.

    • Pat 5.2

      lol…quite easily as the banks continue to reduce their lending

    • Dukeofurl 5.3

      Its more efficient use of the present building companies labour doing it the kiwibuild way.
      Rather than having houses all at different stages and different locations on the go at the same time.
      They have a guaranteed buyer in Kiwibuild who will take , say all 20 houses at one site at the same time.
      Theres no gaps in the work- the bane of the builders life- as they wait for this or that to be done.
      Time saved per build could be up to 3 -4 weeks per house , which would bring it back to what it was before the boom.
      At that time ( 2011) I know of builders who were doing houses at the smaller/cheaper end at 9-12 weeks per build. The sub contractors/suppliers all knew exactly which half of the day they would be required a few weeks out and could plan for that ( and they were doing groups of 4-6 builds on same site)

  6. joe90 6

    National, the party of stalkers.

  7. Judith filth collins showing the true face of the gnats. Pity you have learned nothing over the last few weeks collins. Luckily you’ll NEVER get the reins of power and you’ll end up laughed at even more, as a failure and a person with no scruples or moral fibre.

  8. Adrian Thornton 8

    Labour has shown that it is no visionary party, but only a sad liberal party that’s main purpose it seems, is to defend the ‘deserved’ position of the middle classes at any cost.

    This is all centrist politics has ever offered…ultimately more of the same, with just a little incentive that maybe you too can become one of the favored and protected middle class.

    JA and Tyword even refer to housing as a ‘market’ and buying your first home as getting on ‘the property ladder’ so you know that just by using this type of phrasing, that they have no intention of doing anything that would in anyway inhibit our obscene national obsession with flicking our own homes for profit.

    But then the economic ideology of Labour is free market liberalism so why would they see any problem with commodifying the homes we live in? their sick ideology would commodify the steam off your shit if it could, so no surprises there really.

    Too bad NZ Labour aren’t actually a left wing party at all.. which leaves all low wage earners, the working poor and the disenfranchised pretty well on their own, with only the occasional crumb from NZ Labour, but only if it dosn’t get in the way of defending the rightful position of the favored middle classes….sort of like trickle down economics.

    Turn Labour Left!

    • Pat 8.1

      “Too bad NZ Labour aren’t actually a left wing party at all.. which leaves all low wage earners, the working poor and the disenfranchised pretty well on their own, with only the occasional crumb from NZ Labour, but only if it dosn’t get in the way of defending the rightful position of the favored middle classes….sort of like trickle down economics.”

      I largely agree but in Labours case I suspect it is a position largely driven by fear and ignorance unlike with National where the same path is pursued out of greed and self interest….sadly the end result is little altered.

      • Gosman 8.1.1

        Even at the height of the State Housing build by the first Labour government NZ’s housing supply was overwhelmingly provided by the private sector.

        I would love it if a Left wing party (even Labour) started advocating for nationalising the housing market. It would destroy the left in NZ as a serious political force for a number of generations.

        • Adrian Thornton

          @Gosman, The Labour government provided state homes to working class families who could not afford to buy their first home, not a disenfranchised middle class, who can’t afford a home because of a unaddressed broken economic ideology.

        • Professor Longhair

          A damned fool wrote….

          I would love it if a Left wing party (even Labour) started advocating for nationalising the housing market. It would destroy the left in NZ as a serious political force for a number of generations.

          Massive state housing investment worked just fine in Singapore, Germany, the United Kingdom—and in New Zealand from 1935 to the 1970s.

          This “Gosman” tick does not have the slightest understanding of that on which he opines.

          • Gosman

            Even at the height of the State building houses in NZ it was only a small fraction of the total overally market. NZ housing supply has ALWAYS been provided mainly by the private sector.

            • adam

              I’m really tired of your ‘bugger the poor’ rhetoric to justify you ideological failings Gossy.

              • Gosman

                Where have I stated anything like “Bugger the poor” on this thread? In fact I have stated that if Labour really wanted to help people on lower incomes it should change the focus of Kiwibuild away from three bedroom 650,000 dollar homes and focus on smaller houses or apartments.

        • Kahu

          Don’t need to nationalise the housing market. More effective to abolish freehold land title and make all land leasehold. Would reduce property prices and funnel more income to Gov from land rent for the lease. Property rights would still exist but only bound to house/building.

      • Adrian Thornton 8.1.2

        “sadly the end result is little altered.” exactly my point, low wage earners, the working poor are left in pretty much the exact same position as if National were still the government, no wonder there is such little interest in politics amongst the poor…no one represents their interests…no one.

    • mickysavage 8.2

      There are no plans for the mass nationalisation of the housing market.

      • Adrian Thornton 8.2.1

        @mickysavage, I didn’t call for the nationalization of the housing market ( although I would be open to the idea). Labour (or any sitting NZ government for that matter), have plenty of tools to stomp down hard on the out of control housing ‘market’ if they so wished..but as I said earlier, why would they? ..they have proved to be a staunch promoters and defenders of the liberal free market ideology…like the CPTPP.

        Turn labour Left!

        • Gosman

          What tools does the government have to stomp down hard on the out of control housing market?

          • In Vino

            Nationalizing the banks of course. Despite all your silly blaming the RMA, it is actually the blind greed of profiteering private banks that has created our problem. Along with the blind greed of property-owners. (And I say that as a mortgage-free house-owner.)
            I am tired of your silly yapping, Gosman.

  9. Ad 9

    +100 Mickey good post

  10. Tiger Mountain 10

    Micky’s post is correct, and the govt needs to advertise what it is doing, and take people with them, go on the front foot, not just keep reacting to the daily provocations of Nashnull…

  11. Gosman 11

    Kiwibuild IS upper middle class welfare. If that is who you wish to help Just be honest about it. If you want to assist lower income people get on the property ladder then attempt another type of strategy. Perhaps set up a rent to buy scheme for social houses based on income.

    • Ad 11.1

      The middle class have got welfare for quite some time and it’s a very good thing too.

      This is just another version of it.

      Ardern sure didn’t deny it to camera when the first house was opened. She just emphasized that there were more policies than Kiwibuild.

    • Dukeofurl 11.2

      It was a ballot.

      A new home isnt , sadly, for low income families any more- Whos fault is that.

      But you have to start some where and building new homes for rent and for home owners is how its done.

      Without labours interventions, those on low incomes under national had NO HOMES at all.

      • Gosman 11.2.1

        They still haven’t. Name me one low income earner that can afford a 550 K house let alone a 650 K one?

        • te reo putake

          Jeez, Gossie, do try and keep up. As has been patiently explained for over a year now, these are not intended for low income families. The sad fact is that low income families can’t afford to pay the mortgages on new houses.

          What will happen though is that people moving from rental accommodation into their first Kiwibuild house open up the rental market for others. Again, not the total solution, but part of the solution. Labour are also putting money into Housing Corp’s rental stock; again not the total solution, but part of the solution.

          I’ve got 7 new neighbours thanks to the latter initiative. That’s two beneficiary families in brand new housing for the first time in their lives. They love it and they won’t forget which party gave them the break.

          • Gosman

            This is ONLY true if there are more houses being built than the demand for them increases. The graph at the top of the page suggests this is not the case. All Kiwibuild is doing is allowing upper middle income earners to purchase new houses at a value that is cheaper than it might be if it was purely provided by the private sector. The area of the market where lower income people are struggling will still be overcrowded and highly priced. In fact it might be more sensible for Labour to provide more lower cost housing at the bottom of the market to ease the pressure there rather then in the middle.

            • Dukeofurl

              You have ‘guessed’ at the income of one couple – who are very young- while whats the income status of the other 17?

              bet you dont know what the average income of a family in Auckland is

              Its well over $100K . That doesnt make them ‘upper middle income ‘ at all.

              It makes them AVERAGE

              From Stats NZ
              average annual household income (from all regular sources) …., to reach $100,103 for the year ended June 2017

              • Gosman

                Yeah, if you think an income of 100,000 is average and 650,000 for a house is a “starter home” good luck to you.

                • Dukeofurl

                  Twyford has described the others owners

                  “Also in the first group of buyers in the KiwiBuild homes in Papakura were a student, a warehouse worker, a concrete worker, nurses, a student and a stay-at-home mum – people who’d previously been locked out of the housing market.

                  Upper middle class ? Gosman mirrors his own existence again

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Gosman, you appear to be a paid Troll spending the entire day defending other Trolls.

                  Quite the champion of the people aren’t you.

                  Are there other issues we can help you with?

                  • In Vino

                    Please, don’t ask! He and his mates love punctilious nit-picking that suits their purpose…

          • patricia bremner

            So true. These are homes. not bloody bargaining chips. You are desperate GOS Your arguments lack substance.

          • Tiger Mountain

            yes, Labour’s is an incremental varied approach which which will take time, but will gradually ease the housing crisis by dealing with all sides of the problem from poverty, low wages, exploitative rents, overheated house prices, off shore buyer distortion, empty house syndrome, state house sell offs etc.

            I would like to see rent control, long term tenancies and immediate capital gains taxes, but I guess the govt feels neo rentiers that contributed to the housing crisis by leveraging extra properties should be let down gently where possible, rather than having their, albeit grasping, lifestyles wrecked causing more social carnage

            Labour is taking a measured approach, but if they get a second term they will really need to raise the miserly fiscal cap, and go for broke with a massive public house and apartment build, involving all the associated training and resources until housing again becomes accomodation and a family resource rather than a ’nice little earn’

  12. Antoine 12

    To be honest it looks like middle class capture to me

    (Snap – I crossed with Gosman above)


    • Ad 12.1

      They do other policies as well.

      Relax and watch what good government finally feels like after 9 years of National shit.

      • Dukeofurl 12.1.1

        Ah yes …magic wandism .

        And too think in 2008 when national took over the biggest policy issues with the previous labour government were ‘ the types of light bulbs allowed’ and the ‘nanny state’
        Cry me a river

      • Antoine 12.1.2

        > Relax and watch what good government finally feels like after 9 years of National shit.

        Oh how I would love to, but it’s hard to relax after stuff like the free tertiary fees bribe or killing the petrochemical industry


        • Ad

          Make sure you go through the entire set of coalition promises they made to us and delivered inside 1 year. Compare to the previous government. Go ahead and list the Nats achievements beside that.

          I enjoy almost $0 public subsidy and know that it’s going to be good for the country.

          If you’re anxious now, its going to be a very very long 9 years for you.

          • Antoine

            > If you’re anxious now, its going to be a very very long 9 years for you.



            • In Vino

              “Killing” the petrochemical industry, Antoine? Not guilty of some ‘harmless exaggeration’ there, are we? Last I heard the industry was still alive, but had been given notice that it would have to curtail activities in the future.
              Please try not to be silly.

  13. jcuknz 13

    Why should the low incomed folk subsidize the middle class in getting their own house?.
    Better the ‘middle class’ and above should look after the ‘low income’ by providing state house acomodation, with permanent rights to live in it, if they in turn respect the property and look after it.
    This is a basic principle to me and having built two houses myself I know the housing crisis cannot be corrected overnight, it takes time, not helped by restrictions imposed on developers such as the RMA and do-goodie folk thinking up desirable rules instead of permitting basic housing being provided … which can be improved as finance permits.
    When you have nothing and living in a car or in my case my employer’s business even a converted stable was very welcome with outside loo and just cold water and power. True I was single in those days but marriage wasn’t thought of until I could house my wife reasonably well. [ a converted bus with just power ]

    • Ad 13.1

      You might want to check the $$ per person that get transferred to the poor from everyone. There’s a graph in Cullen’s draft tax report that shows it.

      Envy politics gets you nowhere.

    • the other pat 13.2

      ” Better the ‘middle class’ and above should look after the ‘low income’ by providing state house acommodation, with permanent rights to live in it”…..nah its a hand up not a hand out….everyone will plead poverty and get a permanent free house going by that

  14. Rosemary McDonald 14

    Mickysavage. I was wondering when you’d be commenting on this issue.

    I guess all the opprobrium being leveled at ‘ bitter bullying old lady ‘ Collins will be leveled at myself for my comments on the weekend regarding this event.

    Open Mike 27/10/2018

    ““Is anyone else thinking this will bite them in the arse….?”

    I thought earlier that their arses would have been well and truly bitten by the mere fact that Our Shiny New Leader very clumsily referenced Savage helping the first State House tenants move in in 1937….their rent being one third of the household’s income. https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/we-call-it-home/first-state-house

    As if we wouldn’t go lookitup! Fast forward to the 60th birthday of that very first state house and the…

    “…the Nysse family, John and Winnie and their three children. The family told the New Zealand Herald that they were finding it difficult to make ends meet under the regime of market rents introduced in 1991. The family’s sole source of income was John’s pension, which brought in $292 per week. After paying a rental of $215, the family was left with just $77 to live on. Whereas the McGregor family had handed over about a third of their income to live in 12 Fife Lane, the Nysse family paid nearly three-quarters of theirs.”

    I digress. And am wrongly conflating as I am wont to do.

    As if the struggles in 1997 of the Nysee family under the ‘regime of market rents…’ can in anyway be connected to the absolute flucking irony of a current Labour Prime Minister exploiting the birth of state housing in New Zealand at an event assuring their backers of the continuation of government obeisance to the gods of the Market.


    Thought we were looking at some kind of radical turn- the- clock- back- to -kinder times type crap.”

    Yes, well, I was pissed off and bitterly disappointed.

    Even more so now that my initial instinctive distaste at this government masking their Market worship with references to housing struggling hard working families in 1937 has gained some validity.

    FFS…stop linking Kiwibuild with Savage’s State Housing..it’s simply wrong.

    Love and kisses,

    ‘Bitter Bullying Old Lady’

    • Dukeofurl 14.1

      What nonsense you talk,- again- Rosemary.

      The world has moved on since 1937. Home ownership for families is encouraged by government.

      Put your 21st century glasses on. It may salve your soul to pine for the good old days but for younger people its doesnt exist. Full stop.

      • Rosemary McDonald 14.1.1

        Dukeofurl…what personal abuse you hurl from behind your silly pseudonym!

        Fearless defender of the Administration that you are! Tell me, do you get paid per hour or per ad hominem?

      • adam 14.1.2

        I see your still in the gutter dukeofurl right down there with Gossy.

        • Dukeofurl

          I said she ‘talks’ nonsense – referring to her arguments. Thats why I said talks.

          Why are you even jumping in when you lack comprehension skills.
          Mansplaining were you ?

          Rosemary is quite capable of speaking up …

          • adam

            You jumped in to attack me on a few times, so quite frankly – harden up.

            As for mansplaining, I just offered an opinion on your crappy behaviour. I didn’t do anything for Rosemary – That said I see you doing a McFlock, and just making stuff up to have somthing to knock down.

            So when it comes to comprehension, I think you got problems buddy.

            • McFlock

              If people have difficulty understanding you, maybe you should try to explain your position more clearly.

              • adam

                As always, you just making stuff up.

                • McFlock

                  You accused dukeofurl of having comprehension problems.
                  This means that D has difficulty understanding you, no?

                  If someone has difficulty understanding you, maybe you could use smaller words in order to help that person understand you. You can also look over the comment you made that was misunderstood, and see if there were any steps in the progression of your thoughts that might have lacked some detail. You can also provide examples of what you might mean.

                  And finally, there’s always the option of asking whether key points, or the general comment, have been understod to the satisfaction of your reader.

                  Have I adequately explained my comment and it’s connection to your claim that dukeofurl has comprehension problems?

        • In Vino

          Adam, for heaven’s sake. If dukeofurl has a still, why would it be in a gutter somewhere? Get literate and write “you’re” when you should. What you write will look less damned silly.

    • patricia bremner 14.2

      Are you voting for Judith next time Rosemary?

      • Rosemary McDonald 14.2.1

        Gee, thanks patricia bremner.

        That you equate me having a problem with Ardern referencing Savage, State Housing and 1937 at an event celebrating assisting people to get on the first rung of the property ladder with me somehow being a National Party supporter and/or a Judith fan says more about yourself than it does about me.

        I have deliberately avoided the issues Collins is highlighting.

        • patricia bremner

          I responded previously and said Ardern was careless in those comments. Did you miss that? It was a joke Rosemary… I know you are no fan of Judith.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            “It was a joke Rosemary…”

            …and as I am sure I’ve admitted before, that event on the weekend and the appallingly clumsy attempt to put kiwibuild and 1937 State Housing into the same narrative scares me just about shitless.

            Even a political numpty such as myself can figure out that the Coalition squeaked narrowly into existence solely because the Parties all correctly detected a very real desire for change…so based on election campaigning and manifestos we voted accordingly.

            Now, if not only does the COL fail to ease the struggles of those most vulnerable but appears to be facilitating advancement for those who are already advantaged AND celebrating this by calling up the ghost of Savage, then numpties like myself are going to be less inclined to vote for them again.

            And some might just say that if there is no way out of this neoliberal market-driven mire then we may as well vote for those who do that shit better.

            • Ankerrawshark

              KiwiBuild is aimed to allow first home buyers into the market..their rates of home ownership have fallen significantly as greed and an unregulated housing market has pushed prices up. First home buyers have been competing with investors, with investors most often winning. Imho this is despicable. KiwiBuild means first home buyers don’t have to complete with the greedy amongst us and from this point of view it is a great scheme. I am pleased a dr was one of the first to win a ballot (pleased nurses, concrete workers too). Don’t believe people would buy a KiwiBuild if they could genuinely afford something else, because most of us stretch ourselves when buying our first or second home. Ffs the dr will have a huge student debt, plus if can’t buy a home in Auckland will nove to regions or worse still overseas.

    • Bill 14.3

      Thank-you “Bitter Bullying Old Lady” 🙂

      Your comments (as well as those of a few obvious others) are pretty damned reflective of the general mood I come across in my daily interactions with people, ie ordinary and (relatively speaking) poorer people -not those wannabe or arrived at 4WD, getting by, fly buys and down payment buyers and purchasers, who wring their hands on a fair few internet forums preaching on the supposed pragmatism of “jam tomorrow”.

      People are pissed. off..

      How that plays out in a country where political choices have been narrowed to the point of being, for many, more or less a Hobson’s choice, is anyone’s guess.

      • marty mars 14.3.1

        Sounds like you hate it here.

        • Ankerrawshark

          KiwiBuild is aimed to allow first home buyers into the market..their rates of home ownership have fallen significantly as greed and an unregulated housing market has pushed prices up. First home buyers have been competing with investors, with investors most often winning. Imho this is despicable. KiwiBuild means first home buyers don’t have to complete with the greedy amongst us and from this point of view it is a great scheme. I am pleased a dr was one of the first to win a ballot (pleased nurses, concrete workers too). Don’t believe people would buy a KiwiBuild if they could genuinely afford something else, because most of us stretch ourselves when buying our first or second home. Ffs the dr will have a huge student debt, plus if can’t buy a home in Auckland will nove to regions or worse still overseas. It is a great scheme.

        • Ankerrawshark

          hey everyone can we quit the personal abuse. I would appreciate it if we could. By all means attack the argument, but not the person

        • In Vino

          That is cheap, Marty. Many of us born here are damned pissed off about exactly Bill’s point. And we don’t hate it here – we want it better here.

      • Rosemary McDonald 14.3.2

        “How that plays out in a country where political choices have been narrowed to the point of being, for many, more or less a Hobson’s choice, is anyone’s guess.”

        🙂 lolz etc etc

        Bring back the McGillicuddy Serious Party I say!!!



        And we can all have a good giggle as the ship goes down.

      • Ad 14.3.3

        Bill tautoko to that.

        NZ is rated 33 out of 38 by UNICEF for inequality in the classroom.

        Report out today.

    • the other pat 14.4

      FFS…stop linking Kiwibuild with Savage’s State Housing..it’s simply wrong……agreed and some real valid points Rosemary.

  15. Siobhan 15

    Seems to me Ardern and Labour have brought some of this ‘misunderstanding’ about Kiwibuild onto themselves.

    Why the continued references to the State Housing of Savage’s Labour?

    Jacinda’s joke about ‘not carrying in the kitchen table’ for starters.
    The first tenant of a State house, one he eventually was able to buy, was a tram driver. From what I can see a couple on one income.
    I look forward to seeing the first Auckland bus driver move into a Kiwibuild.
    Though I gather, again from Jacinda, that these houses are for people who “deserve access to the housing market

    I assume that bus drivers fall into the category of folk who are, presumably, now considered undeserving. As is anyone looking for a ‘home’, rather than a leg up the wealth ladder and the chance to start making money from the housing market.

    And while I hear this talk about Kiwibuild being just one ‘tool’ ( a favorite expression of John Key I seem to recall) we all know..its the HOUSING MARKET that has nurtured our economic and social problems…so why FFS are we encouraging it? Kiwibuild is nothing more than a prop up of the market, and in the end it won’t be enough. Its like the ‘Accommodation Allowance’, its an open cheque book for investors at the taxpayers expense.

    Some kindly soul on the radio this morning sympathised with the plight of poor teachers and nurses, wondering how they could even afford the deposit on a Kiwibuild on their pitiful wages. I agree. But my question would be, ‘How many people moving into a Kiwibuild have parents who are lifetime renters’, which relates to “how many recent tertiary qualified young folk have parents who are life time renters?”. Each and every year it would be a smaller and smaller percentage.

    Inequality is growing, social mobility is decreasing.

    And Labour policies are doing NOTHING to reverse the trend.

    “David McGregor was a tram driver for the Wellington City Council. For his efforts he received a wage of £4 7s 9d per week. Out of this total he paid the state £1 10s 3d in rent, just over a third of his pay. In the early 1950s the National government introduced measures enabling state tenants to purchase their home. The McGregors took up the offer and bought, later declaring it to be ‘our little bit of New Zealand’.


    • Adrian Thornton 15.1


    • Dukeofurl 15.2

      They go hand in hand.
      Kiwibuild and new state rentals

      Over a period of 10-15 years, 2700 worn-out state houses will be replaced by 10,000 new homes. This will comprise approximately 3000 new state houses, 3500 new KiwiBuild and affordable homes, and 3500 market homes-says Twyford


      Your magic wand wont build a thing

      • Siobhan 15.2.1

        They are building houses. We need to build houses. I get that. I never proposed the use of a magic wand.

        Though it is interesting that you think a ‘magic wand’ would be required to get a bus driver into his own affordable home. It further reinforces how stuffed up the ‘market’ mentality is.

        2700 state house being replaced with 3000 State Houses…is going to do diddly for the homeless and the massive, massive, numbers under housing stress.

        6500 houses is not going to do anything for housing affordability.

        The market is being propped up, that is all.

        • Bill

          Was reflecting the other day on how some cities in other countries have obvious squatter settlements (ie, Mumbai in India, or Jakarta, and wherever in South and Latin America as well as across Africa. Calais in France. Tent cities in some US states…)


          I got to thinking that NZ has its own slums for the discounted and forgotten, but that they are dispersed and effectively hidden from polite view by dint of being made up of a family here and a family there and another some way away – all in garages and cars and people movers, or otherwise crammed behind facades of normality on housing estates and developments that the more “well to do” would never have cause to venture into.

          Different geography. Same shit. And the same political indifference.

          Can you imagine the ridicule that would be heaped on any Indian PM, or party in that country that said it was going to lift slum dwellers out of the slums by building houses for first time buyers?

    • the other pat 15.3

      yup amen to that

  16. Tuppence Shrewsbury 16

    The classic set up post to be able to blame the opposition when the public turn off kiwi build.

    There was a post like this before the election that cunliffe was almost in

    • In Vino 16.1

      Oh, come on TS. You must well remember as I do how your precious National Party kept persistently denying that there was any problem at all.
      Until an election loomed… How convenient.. the problem was suddenly recognised. Utterly laughable, Tuppence.

      • patricia bremner 16.1.1

        Because you don’t rate a policy does not make it bad.
        The Government governs for all, yes, JLR Collins and the trolls and posters on here. etal.
        Helping working people into a home they can afford frees up a rental.
        The services they offer helps build communities.
        The poor disenfranchised and disabled also deserve help. Many things are under way, but are yet to be enacted.

        Impatience like greed is a human failing. When our PM said “Doing things properly does mean being careful. Get it wrong and many may be hurt.”
        Now, our list of most important things may vary from another person’s. So we would order needs differently.

        But the greatest problem is trust. We have lost faith that our Leaders care, that their intentions are good and in line with our own beliefs, and this colours our discourse. This is based on real and painful experience.

        Think back just eighteen months. We were desperate. Trying to rally each other, and shocked at the vitriol aimed at beneficiaries and Meteria.
        The Greens had gone out on a limb and had to overcome their critics.

        Labour was genuinely crafting a new togetherness which the Public wasn’t buying. Then they all gambled on a new Leader. A young woman. Hope blossomed as they united behind her.
        New Zealand First walked a line between the conservatives and the hope for change. Few could see him going with “the girl”, until she said “Tell Winston make mine a single malt”. It showed wit and an ability to connect.

        The pundits almost all said it looked like 3 more years of the same.
        Horror/Glee depending on your own beliefs, but Winston chose change.
        Our relief was palpable.

        This year, I believe is the end of the honey moon, we now await the fruits of the marriage.

        It is now 12 months since this Coalition Government was installed. How far we have come is amazing, but the need is so great it swamping the faith of the supporters. IMO.

        • patricia bremner

          Sorry, final sentence… Rome was not built in a day, and 9 years + of damage will take longer than 12 months to repair.

  17. jcuknz 17

    All this talk of home ownership is misplaced … what is needed is accommodation.
    For most of the low income folk in society house ownership is completely out of their reach and is a middle class and above concept. But security of tenure for those renting needs to be improved at least to European standards from what I have gathered.
    For those who object to paying big rentals the question is how to get into their own house.
    My solution was to build myself but you need a better than basic income for that and if the govt provided housing at a low rental it helps those with the will to improve their situation … Many will prefer to go to the pub but that is freedom of choice.
    My work took me to numerous state house areas and I guess I was envious of all the cars parked on the grass outside many of them back then … cars were scarce in the fifties 🙂
    So while I think the current govt is on the wrong track the previous one was way worse.

    Accommodation not Home Ownership should be the target when there are limited resources.

    • Dukeofurl 17.1

      Look at the calendar . Its 2018 not 1950s . Urban sprawl means cars are virtually an essential.

    • mac1 17.2

      Back in the Fifties state houses were not targeted at low income households. They were higher than that. My uncle raised his four children in a state house working as a lab technician. State houses were also occupied by state servants on the salary of the time. Middle class?

      There needs to be a very clear outlining of the government’s purpose.

      Does affordable housing sit alongside, or replace State Housing?

      Is the intention to build a 100,000 houses so that all will be housed, some in owned properties, some in state housing, some in cheaper but affordable and decent rentals, some in rest homes and retirement villages and in concept accommodation such as Abbeyfield?

      If so, where does what the government has done so far sit in this scheme?

      Given that there is a time required to pick up speed because of the need to find serviced land, train more builders, planning and so on, what does the government envisage happening in the next three, five, ten years?

      This topic might make a good post?

      • patricia bremner 17.2.1

        I say again Housing New Zealand has good information on what is happening and what is planned.

  18. Scooter 18

    How embarrassing for Judith that she took that quote literally and thinks that there are 204 countries in the world. The dp attack on the young couple aside, It’s concerning that an MP can’t discern between fact and fiction online. She needs some digital literacy education to improve her comprehension. She also needs to stop retweeting hateful online trolls.

  19. jcuknz 19

    I was still a child when McGregor got his house but his money went much further in those days and my wife reminds me at times of her Mother who fed a family of six/seven on not much more than a dollar a week [ 10/-]. No Tv, No phone, no mobile, little advertising of wasteful foods, no Maccas/KFC. But a small council house garden brimming with vegetables to feed the family.
    Really people do not know how lucky or unfortunate they are today.
    My Son travels from the States to Guatemala to work helping locals and as he wrote recently “students [ in the US ] have more that whole families down there”
    And during his training in SC he and his flatmate lived on a bag of rice for a week or two until more funds turned up so he too knows poverty.
    So no wonder they want to get to the States … he also suggest the solution is to improve the lot of people where they are to reduce the desire to move … but that is another subject.

    edit And Duke that is one of the unfortunate things we have to live with these days with public transport having to pay its way instead of servicing the people …. BTIAS 🙂

  20. AB 20

    It’s true that National are behaving like arsonists jeering the fire-fighters for not putting the blaze out in the right way. So yeah – pretty disgusting.

    All the same, Labour should have known that it’s very hard to build affordable homes in the middle (or the tail-end) of a bubble. If you leave the fundamental drivers of the bubble in place, you leverage is limited and all you can really do is make home ownership a tad easier for the middle class. This is a start, but not sufficient on its own.

    Understandably, they have been much too scared to try deflating the bubble first – because it’s politically extremely dangerous. Probably they’re hoping that their initiatives such as Kiwibuild will cause a slow, controlled deflation.

    But they’ve been too afraid to consider:
    – making ownership of rental properties deeply financially unattractive
    – cutting immigration seriously
    – increasing top marginal rates of taxation so there is less money sloshing round at the top end seeking investments with quick, easy returns
    – substantially increasing minimum wages
    – further constraining bank lending on house mortgages
    – attacking building suppliers monopolies / cartels
    Because any one of these would cause screaming from the rooftops by the rich/powerful.

    • Ad 20.1

      – Talk or listen on the media to landlords. The government’s existing moves are already making it unattractive to stay in there as a business.

      – This will only get worse as Cullen’s tax proposals land in February-March next year. Then you will see the real media show about landlords or anyone owning more than one house.

      – Far more effectively than cutting immigration is the banning of foreign ownership of new houses. With carveouts for Australia and Singapore, that’s government policy.

      – Marginal tax rates are on the agenda as you will have seen from Cullen’s interim tax report.

      – Worth waiting for the review of the Reserve Bank to be implemented on the requirement to constrain banks one way or the other.

      – The only landlords that will stay after this government has finished with them next year are those with awesome gearing, great yield, balls of steel, and will more likely be an NGO or a listed company.

      • Antoine 20.1.1

        > The only landlords that will stay after this government has finished with them next year are those with awesome gearing, great yield, balls of steel, and will more likely be an NGO or a listed company.

        Time will tell


  21. Observer Tokoroa 21

    The Trolls are naked

    They are so upset today. They are blubbing away like children. Tantrums.

    Why ? Because people are being allowed to buy houses !

    The trolls have been annoyed for a wholw year because some workers are getting paid a little extra money, while dear Billy Sadist English and the Trolls spent nine years paying them pittance.

    These trolls Hate witha viciousness – that some people are being paid for work they do.

    And so we end up up with Chris T, Gosman, James, Farmers Inc, Jude Troll Snake Collins spitting through her sadistic nostrils at Labour.

    Labour are rebuilding New Zealand. While Judith Collins is apparently obeying the weird policies of the Communist Party Leaders of China. It seems to me, If you are committed to China – you love the powerful China Communist Party and its influence here.

    That’s how the National Party wants it I guess. She is no Leader of New Zealand. Never has been. Never could be.

    • Gosman 21.1

      Ummm… most workers don’t get paid by the Government so what Bill English decided to do had little effect.

      • Ad 21.1.1

        The government is about 30% of our economy. Same under the last one. Bill English and Key altered large parts of industrial sectors and of our economy.

        • Gosman

          No they didn’t. They altered very little of the NZ economy. That is the biggest gripe people on the right have about the Key/English Government.

          • patricia bremner

            Key changed laws to promote low pay and contracting. English promoted low wages. FECK OFF G.

            • Gosman

              What laws were altered to promote low pay? The laws around contracting were barely touched.

              • patricia bremner

                Youth rates. Zero hour contracts. Don’t lie!!

                • Gosman

                  Zero hour contracts existed PRIOR to National coming in to power in 2008 and National in fact outlawed them in 2016.

                  Youth rates haven’t been abolished under Labour so there doesn’t seem to be a massive issue with them. It is also not directly related to contracting so I haven’t lied about them at all.

                  Again, what were the law changes to contracting that were made under National?

          • Ad

            I’ll list the secrtors for you.
            – Dairy
            – Irrigation
            – Construction
            – Infrastructure
            – Real estate
            – Rental housing
            – Public services including health and education
            – Forestry

            Most of it was negative, but it sure was industry-altering.;

            • Gosman

              How did any of those industries change substantially under National?

              • Stuart Munro

                Massive influxes of third nations workers to depress wages and conditions.

                • Gosman

                  Do you have example of wages in NZ in those sectors falling?

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Oddly, I’ve had better things to do than track them.

                    But the symptomology is consistent: foreigners recruited en bloc, often without written pay agreements. Kiwi flight as local workers struggle to make ends meet on shit wages within our economy. Bullshit claims about the kiwi work ethic, usually rebutted overseas where they are obliged to go, our own economy having been hollowed out.

                    And later, tales of largescale systematic immigration rorts, qualification falsification, and exploitation of migrant labour.

                    Even a year later, with some effort having gone in to containing National’s clusterfuck, it is still out of control:


              • Ad

                – Dairy. Massive and barely regulated expansion that is also failing.

                – Irrigation. Massive expansion with direct taxpayer subsidies.

                – Construction. State, local and insurance-fed boom.

                – Infrastructure. City and motorway boom with direct state funding and policy.

                – Real Estate. Population-and-unregulated-foreign-capital boom with tax subsidy for investors.

                – Rental housing. Massive shift to private sector by the state with resulting collapse of the poor into greater poverty that they will never get out of – through direct state policy

                – Public services. Run in to the ground by the state.

                – Forestry. Fucked by government carbon credit policy changes.

                Seriously don’t be so fucking lazy next time.

            • WeTheBleeple

              Don’t forget what they did to post-graduate studies – no student allowance. A design where being poor in university is much harder, in the form of financial stress and being forced to work while competing with others who had flats and vehicles brought for them, paid lunch every day…

              If I didn’t have a garden I doubt I’d have made it through.

              Fuck National, the real wreckers and haters.

  22. bwaghorn 22

    Anyone to fucking stupid to see that every time someone moves into a kiwibuild house it will free up a rental (occasionally it will be someone leaving mums bn b but not often) should just shut up and fuc k off.
    Build enough of them and it will also stabilise house prices and free up doer uppers onto the market at reasonable prices .

  23. Alan 23

    any genuine left wing fan should be revolted by this blatant upper middle class welfare handout – if National had done this there would be absolute outrage being expressed on this site.
    Labour – friend of the upper middle class, not friend of those on struggle street, who would have thought.

    • patricia bremner 23.1

      Read Housing New Zealand. 24th october news. State housing in the regions. etc. Get informed.

      • Alan 23.1.1

        put it all into state housing, not this bs middle class welfare

        • patricia bremner

          We need services in centres, so we need homes for electricians teachers firemen doctors… ok?? Homes they can afford to buy.

          Meantime the Govt is providing stopgap housing, state housing, Purchasing land for housing developments,examining beginning shared equity schemes (owning the land and leasing the property through a license to occupy?) Kiwibuild.
          All this in year one, and you are disappointed Jeez… get real.

          • BM

            These people are well catered for already.

            If I wanted a new home I’d go see someone like G J Gardeners, I wouldn’t fuck around with this Kiwi buy lottery bull shit.

            • patricia bremner

              OK, good luck with that.

              • BM

                No difference to me getting GJ’s to build me a house than Kiwibuy getting GJ’s to build them a house and then selling it to me.

                Why would I bother going through Kiwi Buy?

                • Because Kiwibuild does not need to make a profit. 4 bed home Papakura $800 000 Kiwi build $649 000 I’d go into the ballot.

                  • BM

                    GJ’s isn’t building the house for free.

                    Think you’re getting confused with property developers and building companies.

                    You raise the finance and go to GJ’s who will build one of their houses for you at an agreed price.

                    There wouldn’t be a lot of difference between the Kiwi buy price and your price.

                    Materials and subbies still cost the same.

                  • Gosman

                    Yes they do make a profit.

  24. David Mac 24

    People with a house deposit have options. The situation we are fast approaching will have little bearing on those with $50,000 in their back pocket.

    Those having their thumb-screws tightened can’t put their hands on $500. Property Managers country-wide have shrinking portfolios. The majority of rentals are owned by Mums and Dads and the Government’s renovations to the Tenancy Act is prompting them to hammer For Sale signs in their front lawns. Whether the motivation is real or perceived doesn’t matter, the end result is the same. They’re fearful of things like being unable to evict problematic tenants, litters of puppies moving in, ruthless fine-happy regulators.

    For years Far North rentals advertised on Trademe hovered between 90 and 100 properties. Today there are 32. Kerikeri has 13 of them, Pahia/Opua 7. The largest town in the Far North: Kaitaia has 1 available.

    Unemployed? Children? Dog? Disabled? Anything but a perfect credit history and glowing references, Forget it.

    Below is a list of the Far North locations, observe how many have zero rentals available.

    All suburbs
    Ahipara (2)
    Awanui (0)
    Broadwood (0)
    Cable Bay (1)
    Cape Reinga (0)
    Cavalli Islands (0)
    Coopers Beach (0)
    Diggers Valley (0)
    Fairburn (0)
    Haruru (1)
    Henderson Bay (0)
    Herekino (0)
    Hihi (0)
    Hokianga (0)
    Hokianga Harbour (0)
    Horeke (0)
    Houhora (0)
    Kaeo (0)
    Kaikohe (2)
    Kaimaumau (0)
    Kaingaroa (0)
    Kaitaia (1)
    Karetu (0)
    Karikari Peninsula (0)
    Kawakawa (3)
    Kerikeri (13)
    Kohukohu (0)
    Koutu (0)
    Lake Ohia (0)
    Mangamuka (0)
    Mangatoetoe (0)
    Mangonui (0)
    Maromaku (0)
    Mitimiti (0)
    Moerewa (0)
    Motutangi (0)
    Ngataki (0)
    Ohaeawai (0)
    Okaihau (0)
    Omanaia (0)
    Omapere (0)
    Opononi (0)
    Opua (2)
    Paihia (5)
    Pakaraka (0)
    Pamapuria (0)
    Panguru (0)
    Paranui (0)
    Peria (0)
    Pukenui (0)
    Pukepoto (0)
    Rangiahua (0)
    Rangiputa (0)
    Rawene (1)
    Russell (1)
    Taheke (0)
    Taipa (0)
    Takahue (0)
    Taupo Bay (0)
    Tauranga Bay (0)
    Tokerau Beach (0)
    Totara North (0)
    Towai (0)
    Victoria Valley (0)
    Waiharara (0)
    Waima (0)
    Waimamaku (0)
    Waimate North (0)
    Waipapa (0)
    Waipapakauri (0)
    Whangape Harbour (0)
    Whangaroa (0)
    Whatuwhiwhi (0)
    Whirinaki (0)

    Kiwibuild, fantastic. Houses to buy are not the train smash we are steaming towards.

    • patricia bremner 24.1

      So, what do you suggest should be done? When we were following work in 1965 rentals were gold as well. Teachers were poorly paid.. often had a second job, the poor struggled, it wasn’t until the government introduced ‘woman alone with children’ benefit that improved. This govt is trying.

      • David Mac 24.1.1

        Paths to ownership for the many that are resigned to never owning a home.

        Ownership instills pride, not just in the property, but community, family, neighbours and country.

        The sums we are currently paying moteliers for a family’s accommodation would service 2 mortgages.

        • David Mac

          “This govt is trying”

          Between good intentions and a job well done – The Abyss.

        • patricia bremner

          Yes, but we also need to do it carefully so builders don’t over reach go bust and ruin lives. Some homeless are pleased to have a clean dry motel as an immediate step to getting other issues sorted, and it will take time to sort out.

          With a Coalition, it all has to be agreed.
          At least they are thinking of ways to help, not fighting among themselves, or singling out individuals to shame them in public as Bennett and Collins are doing.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            “…or singling out individuals to shame them in public as Bennett and Collins are doing.”

            The couple being singled out by Collins were initially singled out by the Coalition to be poster children for Kiwibuild.

            Now, ask yourself…should the Coalition not have anticipated that National would go full feral and try to cause ‘Kiwibuild to crash’?

            And perhaps chosen their frontspeople more wisely?

            And not tried to pass the Kiwibuild launch off as some modern day version of Savage’s 1937 State House celebration?

            As I said the other day…clumsy.

            A more cynical person might perceive this as political sabotage….along the lines of who was advising the Greens when Metiria came out?

            • patricia bremner

              You could be right Rosemary.. another meme…”Kiwi build is a flop”
              Yes Ardern was clumbsy there. Should have used that for the first state house in Whanganui since 1990? perhaps . Cheers.

            • Sanctuary

              For someone who is prone to doing personal attacks dressed up as an identity politics flounce the minute she doesn’t like being criticised it a bit rich to find you airily dismissing Judith Collins appalling piece of bullying.

          • David Mac

            Yeah Pat, I think it starts with igniting the fires of Hope. This also wins elections.

            At the moment I’m guessing it would be about a third of us that are of the opinion “I’ll never be able to own a home”. It’s a soul and motivation crushing outlook.

            The 1 rental currently available in Kaitaia has move in costs of $2853. If lucky enough to be selected (highly unlikely) WINZ would extend that sum to a family so they can move in.

            I think that near $3000 should be spent on a buyer’s legal costs. Auckland rent levels are fast approaching mortgage payments in the regions. Great way for a Government to stimulate growth in the regions. eg: Move Auckland’s port to Whangarei and assist families into their own homes in outlying Whangarei regions. Houses are cheap 20 mins out of Whangarei. Home ownership for the Team Leaders of Shane’s tree planting scheme etc.

            • the other pat

              Houses are cheap 20 mins out of Whangarei…..true but i wonder how the price of gas will even that out…it going to keep going up and up

      • Gosman 24.1.2

        “This govt is trying.”

        Yes, yes it is very trying…

    • Rosemary McDonald 24.2

      David Mac…about two years ago, while parked up in one of those small places on your list in our wee Bus (enjoying one of the FNDC’s freedom camping areas) I got talking to an over -65 pakeha couple currently renting a small bach down the road. They’d sold up in [insert town other than Auckland and the like] to retire in the Far North and were renting while looking for a house to buy. Disaster had struck when a heart attack and subsequent major surgery had stymied their plans….and extra expenses associated with a serious health condition had depleted their already barely-enough deposit money.

      Cashed up Aucklanders have ensured that the ‘market’ is thriving in the FFN, and the bach…(seriously, a bach) was now on the market and they had to move.

      “Did we know of any places to rent in the Kaitaia area?” A struggle then…and even more so with the avo industry demanding warm bodies for the intensive orchard- establishment work.

      Carts going before horses….

      • David Mac 24.2.1

        Hi Rosemary, yes I hear a few similar stories although in the majority of cases freehold home owning Aucklanders have moved up to lead the life of O’Reilly in the fabulous Far North.

        I didn’t really understand your story. An over 65 year old couple with barely a deposit…aren’t they going to struggle to get a mortgage anywhere? Huge medical hurdles play havoc in the lives of us all.

        There are some interesting creative lifestyles up here. eg: Strong holiday demand in the Far North is a brief affair, Xmas to the third weekend in January. I know of a number of situations whereby home owners visit relatives, tour in an RV or camp up the road at Matai bay for 4 weeks. 20 Airbnb nights @ $300 per night = $6000. Covers rates, insurances etc. Those big bills that can cruel an otherwise lifestyle rich time on a pension.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          Sorry…confusing. They were looking for a rental, desperately.

          “Strong holiday demand in the Far North is a brief affair, Xmas to the third weekend in January.” The very reason you won’t see us in our Bus up North during this period. 😉 😉

          • David Mac

            Ahhh I see.

            A creative way to secure a keenly priced rental on the beach up here that I’ve seen work several times is to approach private Airbnb etc advertisers and offer to vacate over the peak and major public holidays.

            Easy if you have an RV or a tribe of grandkids down country to visit.

  25. BM 25

    The number one issue in NZ is the cost of renting.

    The only ones that can solve that are the government and the way they do that is by building/buying rentals.

    You target areas with very high rental demands and start building or buying there, once a place becomes owned by the government rent it out at half the cost of what the current market rate is.

    Most rent is government subsidized through the accommodation supplement, so there will be little change in costs.

    It will soon become obvious to people who own rentals that they can’t compete and will sell up, the rental comes onto the market and if either brought by the government and added to it’s rapidly growing housing stock or purchased by first home buyers probably at significantly less than the current market rate.

    Within a very short period of time, you’ll see rent down to realistic levels which will make a huge difference to many peoples quality of life.

    If the government wants to help people into their first homes run a rent to buy scheme and give people the opportunity to buy their government rental.

    Why the government wants to continue with the joke that is Kiwi buy is beyond me, what a waste of money and opportunity.

    • David Mac 25.1

      Yep, the money that is currently an accommodation supplement could be a mortgage payment. Stretch it over a few generations and watch family take care of the elderly, they stand to inherit a nearly paid for house.

    • Gosman 25.2

      There is an obvious problem with that approach. If you are renting out property at less than the Market price you are going to have a huge amount of demand for those properties. This means you need to have a process in place to identify who will be lucky enough to get said property. The State does this currently via HCNZ but it is incredibly bureaucratic. This is only for the neediest section of society. Expanding it to be more widespread will be a nightmare.

      • BM 25.2.1

        There is an obvious problem with that approach. If you are renting out property at less than the Market price you are going to have a huge amount of demand for those properties

        Why do you think there’s such a waiting list for HNZ houses?

        Just run it along the same lines as how HNZ currently works, people with the highest demand get the first go.

        Won’t take long before you hit a point where private landlords will have to drop their prices if they ever want tenants.

        That helps everyone.

        • Gosman

          Your solution only works if there ISN’T a supply issue. There is. There is not enough rentals to meet demand. Unless you solve THAT problem (which again has to do with not enough houses being built) then you will get more and more people trying to get cheaper than market rate rentals from a government agency and the problem won’t go away.

          • David Mac

            Yes, this is why Kiwibuild is good. The mass building of houses that most us could never afford. It doesn’t matter where the steam escapes as long as it does.

            • Gosman

              Again, there is little evidence Kiwibuild is increasing the amount of houses that would have been built anyway. Certainly it isn’t increasing the amount of new builds by anywhere near the 10,000 plus per year that was suggested.

              • David Mac

                They’re focused on building houses Gos. They’re pushing harder than the Nats did. I think it would be unrealistic to expect much more at this stage.

                You’d like to see a scoreboard. Where the Nats would be vs Where the Coalition are. Yeah, it would be a useful tool, but I fear you’d use it with a bias that would render your opinion useless.

                If the Nats were ahead you would be pitching “See, I told you, as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike.”

                If the Coalition were ahead you would be pitching “What a damned fiasco our mental health services are.”

                • Gosman

                  I doubt the Nats would be ahead as their policies were as ineffectual as Labour’s are likely to be.

                  Btw there is no indication that Labour are BUILDING any houses. They are BUYING houses.

    • Draco T Bastard 25.3

      The number one issue in NZ is the cost of renting.

      Nope. In that case the rentiers are the problem.

      Of course, rentier capitalism is the default position of all capitalism.

      Most rent is government subsidized through the accommodation supplement, so there will be little change in costs.

      And thus we should, if we followed the RWNJs neo-liberalist answer, stop the subsidy and make owning a rental property less lucrative.

      This will, of course, reduce the number of rentals and have the RWNJs which will then have them saying that the subsidy obviously needs to be increased.

      The only answer, and it was the one that the Labour Party introduced back in the 1930s, is massive amounts of state housing with life time leases. Essentially, a government guarantee to the people that they will always have a place to live. Don’t even need to charge rent for them.

      Housing needs to be a right.

  26. Adrian 26

    It is easy to confuse idiots.
    The first Savage house went to a tram driver who was a RENTER, the first Kiwibuild has gone has gone to buyers, I’ll bet plenty of the new state houses are going to bus driving RENTERS.
    Idiots are confusing two completely different things.

    • Gosman 26.1

      Would you agree then that Kiwibuild is designed to support upper middle income people?

      • David Mac 26.1.1

        I think it will ease pressure across the board. Medicine for our sore throat, I’m worried we might also have a broken arm.

        I’m worried it’s going to get very tough for the many that struggle to send their kids to a school camp. People for whom the thought of a $50,000 deposit = The impossible dream.

        The current rental climate = Someone who defaulted on a Vodafone plan years ago, even if they have since paid the sum due, will struggle to have their tenancy application accepted. There will be 20 applicants with immaculate credit histories. Singles or couples that have no kids, don’t smoke, solid work histories, no pets etc.

        I think we’re headed towards a tail so big and muscular the dog will have no choice but be wagged.

      • Dukeofurl 26.1.2

        not upper middle income:

        “Also in the first group of buyers in the KiwiBuild homes in Papakura were a student, a warehouse worker, a concrete worker, nurses, a student and a stay-at-home mum -”

        Youll have to go back and retract all your claims now, based on your sample of 1

        • Gosman

          Care to explain how a student and a Stay at home mum can afford a house over 500 K?

          • Cinny

            They probably saved hard for a deposit.

            Or are stay at home mums and students not allowed to attempt to buy a home?

            Would you like their social media accounts so you can question them gosman?


            • Gosman

              LOL!!!! Yeah saved so hard they could either pay for the entire house in cash or somehow convince the bank they could service a debt of hundreds of thousands of dollars despite having NO INCOME.

            • Gosman

              No bank would lend money to someone who was a full time student or a stay at home mum. These people would need a substantial income to afford a 650 K house on their own.

              • Cinny

                Where does it say that they are not working or earning an income gossy?

                It doesn’t. Yet you’ve already created a little story in your head, that because one identifies as a student or stay at home mum, then surely they can’t be working as well.

                And why on earth should they have to explain themselves to you gossy?

                I’m sure the powers that be were satisfied with their situation otherwise they would not have qualified.

                Far out……are the nat trolls after the stay at home mum and the student now? They’ve already trolled the young couple via judith so nastily that they have quit social media, on to the next victims….

                Bullying culture, suicide stats in NZ and we wonder why. FFS

                • Gosman

                  Care to explain what a stay at home mum means if not earning little to no income? Can you point to any student that earns enough to service hundreds of thousands of mortgage debt?

                  • Cinny

                    I was a stay at home mum when my girls were little, running a company from home which employed a number of people. And would identify as a stay at home mum, before identifying as a company or business owner. Priorities, feels more important being a mum than running a company.

                    I knew a student who worked part-time as a prostitute, her earnings paid for her tuition, enabled her to save up a deposit and service a mortgage, and it was all legal.

                  • the other pat

                    she could be working online AT HOME making 200 bux an hour….how about that??….a student may be a more mature person going back to study part time with years of saving up their sleeve doing the same thing…..too much of a stretch for your brain??…..

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    What a ninny you are. I had students I tutored who worked for big bucks in biotech while doing advanced degrees. Some were private security guards, some were strippers.

                    I was on much less than them, teaching.

                    Yesterday I was reading of a lime juicer student with four different jobs.

                    We all identified as students – because we were. We were also hard working.

                    Do you expect everyone to be fucking useless like your mates?

                    • Gosman

                      I love some of these explanations.

                      The Stay at home mum is actually a company executive working from home raking in 200 bucks an hour.

                      The Student is a biotech post-graduate who moonlights in 4 separate jobs including stripping and a prostitute.


                  • Cinny

                    Yes gossy it is possible, is that too hard to comprehend?

                    • Gosman

                      Anything is possible. We might all be part of some giant computer simulation and Kiwibuild is just a sub-routine to provide hours of enjoyment for whoever is monitoring it.

                    • Cinny

                      Welcome to the matrix.

              • David Mac

                The people I know with limited incomes that have bought homes did so via an inheritance.

            • Siobhan

              Or are stay at home mums and students not allowed to attempt to buy a home?…

              It would seem not. Unless they are receiving some very large source of income from something other than being a mother or student.

              A stay at home mom or a student are not independently ‘middle class’ and therefore not ‘deserving’ of entering the ‘housing market’ according to our version of a Labour government.

              Nor, for that matter, would they ever get on a State House waiting list anytime soon.

              They are destined to wait for the ‘trickle down’ of housing availability that Kiwibuild will apparently deliver.

    • Rosemary McDonald 26.2

      “It is easy to confuse idiots.
      The first Savage house went to a tram driver who was a RENTER, the first Kiwibuild has gone has gone to buyers, I’ll bet plenty of the new state houses are going to bus driving RENTERS.
      Idiots are confusing two completely different things.”

      Sorry, Adrian…who is it confusing kiwibuild buyers with Savage’s renters?

    • Siobhan 26.3

      It is easy to confuse idiots.
      As I said…
      The first state house went to a renter, who was later able to buy the house.

      If you’d ever tried to get on a State House waiting list you’d realise that being a bus driver would probably mean you would be directed to the open rental market. You would need a bunch of sick children , an incapacitated wife and a wooden leg for them to even consider putting you on the list.

  27. Observer Tokoroa 27

    Hi Paricia Bremner.

    As I mentioned above, the Trolls are writhing with pain. They realise that their efforts to create Slavery and Scummery for the vast majority of New Zealanders has been ripped to bits now that the corrupt national leaders have fallen and defaulted.

    New Zealanders will continue to demand ownership of their own quality houses; will continue to demand high standard Rentals; will continue to demand living wages and Law abiding parliamentarians.

    They will demand Fairness from the Foreign Banks; they will not accept endless wealthy immigrants sponsored by corrupt nations. They will expect respect from every Corporation. All Foreigners no matter what their Business, or their adult age, will pay levies to maintain the standards of New Zealand.

    The Corrupt practices of toadying self Narcissistic Nationals will be a thing of the past. God Defend New Zealand – For National knows only how to destroy. This we know.

    • patricia bremner 27.1

      1000% +

    • David Mac 27.2

      Regardless of who they vote for, the vast majority of Kiwis want to see their fellow Kiwis lead satisfying and purposeful lives.

      The 1% only get 1% of the vote.

  28. newsense 28

    Mr Twyford on the radio- you don’t need to mention JC however bizarrely she behaves, in my reckons.

    A lot more people are listening on the radio than watching Facebook.

  29. Pete 29

    If the Government did absolutely nothing to do with housing there’d be a bitchathon.

    If the Government built 120,000 State Houses there’d be a bitchathon.

    Some people are getting into houses through Kiwibuild and there’s a bitchathon.

    • Gosman 29.1

      Yeah wealthy people are getting in to houses via Kiwibuild.

      • Draco T Bastard 29.1.1

        A young, just graduated doctor, who’s probably several hundred thousand dollars in debt thanks to the neol-liberalism of the RWNJs has a place to live so that we can get medical treatment.

        Yeah, I’m not going to complain about it.

        • Gosman

          Yeah there is a lot of poverty amongst medical graduates. Good to see the government tackling this major social problem /sarc.

        • indiana

          I don’t think these young people had any debt issues….they happily flaunted how well traveled they are…

  30. Cinny 30

    A couple have given up social media due to being bullied by a nat mp and her followers.

    Do you condone such behaviour from an MP gossy?

  31. McFlock 31

    If Labour meets it’s KB target, the nats will say it’s not quick enough, because the nats need it to fail. 100,000 new homes will help address the housing market failure, and the Nat govt failure.

    If Labour fix the housing problem, odds are they’ll get four terms.

    • Gosman 31.1

      Kiwibuild is not about correcting market failure. All the government is doing is supporting the market by buying new builds and then flicking them on at cost. The market is still functioning exactly as you would expect it to and this won’t likely make a huge difference to the number of houses being added to the housing stock.

      • McFlock 31.1.1

        Well, I’ll take the chances of that huge difference actually happening, plus the much better odds of lowering the consumer cost of housing by eliminating the ticket-clipping from one layer of the building process.

        As a single part of of an integrated housing plan, it’ll do its part.

        Though I am enjoying your tacit admission that the nats let the housing crisis get so bad that only rich people can afford a home, even with one layer of profit-stripping removed from the equation.

        • Gosman

          You are not eliminating ANY ticket clipping here. In fact the government has added a layer of ticket clipping. They have just resolved not to make any money while clipping the ticket.

          • McFlock

            lol because GJ just spontaneously build homes?

            • Gosman

              Sometimes they take a risk that they will be able to sell houses after they build a bunch of them but generally they will attempt to sell off plan before they start building. All the Government is doing is buying all the off plan work they can get their hands on then flicking it on as soon as they have identified someone to take the houses off their hands once the house has been completed. There is no removal of ticket clipping. The State has replaced the House purchasers at the high risk end of the process which makes it more attractive for the developer to build but how much more attractive is unclear. Given the market conditions and the fact it is land supply not concerns about demand that are restricting how fast building can take place this would mean these efforts will have little impact overall.

        • Herodotus

          The industry is currently experiencing 5%+ wage growth, for green fields the increase in diesel will start to flow thru ( rough estimate 1litre of diesel to move 1m3 of earth)
          We had in October 17 3+ bedroom dwelling to be $600k then 6 months later the ceiling was increased to $650k,.
          “Auckland experienced the biggest cost inflation last year, at 8 percent, which is forecast to slow to 6 percent this year”
          So for a $650k kiwiwbuild, land $300k there will be an increase in the Kiwibuild of $20k who will pick that cost up ?
          And the rate of increase is not matched by uplift in income, so gradually those at the bottom end of the targeted market for Kiwibuild will be squeezed out.
          And McF your expected lowing of costs is under stress with at the same time that construction companies are signalling that margins are low and tender bids have to increase.
          Twyford at least is trying I will give him that, and even if he achieves a little it is more than what went before him.
          We cannot go on with 50-80K net immigration and expect the housing problem to go away, it will only deteriorate

          • SPC

            Sure, tightening immigration to both reduce housing demand and also increase incomes is essential.

            It should tighten a little more each year. There is room for that, given so many are not skilled workers and immigration scams are involved. We should be increasing capabilty in Immigration to get on top of that.

          • McFlock

            I wonder how the new prefab framing factory that’s part of the regional development plan will affect construction overheads?

            Gotta love an integrated plan.

      • Pete 31.1.2

        What would you do? Going along with that, what would you do to make a huge difference to the housing stock.

        The market is the market and surelyanything, anything at all that is done in housing will affect it.

  32. Lettuce 32

    Is that the same Judith that went on a taxpayer-funded junket to China and then skipped all the government work to promote her husband’s private business?

    Why yes, I believe it is.

    • Gosman 32.1

      Is this the same Judith who was subject to an inquiry on her actions and was cleared of any wrong doing.

      Why yes, I believe it is.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 32.1.1

        Crusher ‘I can do no wrong‘ Collins? Oh the humility – mind that pipe.

        On the other hand, she holds the National record for crossing bridges.

      • Lettuce 32.1.2

        Oh, you mean that inquiry with the extremely narrow terms of reference set up by her own party leader who was desperate to avoid any political fallout?

        Let’s not place too much stock in that, shall we?

  33. Cynical Jester 33

    It should be for people who earn under 70 k a year not under 120 k a year as a single and 180 as a couple. What classist garbage. It goes to show that labour well and truly doesn’t give a damn about the working class and is only interested in the middle to upper middle.

    Most of of Labour’s caucus came from wealth or have been wealthy for so long they don’t understand know what it’s like to struggle. It’s time for labour to be called the liberal party because labour implies that it represents the working class. This govts actions prove otherwise.

    Savage and Kirk would detest a policy that helps the upper middle classes buy homes while the working class starve and the poor freeze to death on our streets

    I couldn’t believe this was ever a flagship policy. Shows that little was never pm material and that labour wasted 9 years in opposition twiddling their thumbs.

    The only thing going for labour is Jacinda and Nationals war , if national sorts itself out and Jacinda loses popularity and boy will she by this time next year when people realize nothing’s gotten better, this govt is gone burger and it will be because of the Chardony socialists on here praising neoliberal policies like kiwi build.

    I’m absolutely disgusted in Labour.

    Where’s the free dental! Where’s the help for the working class to get an asset. It’s like Labour’s hoping by building torys houses they’ll vote labour 😅

    • SPC 33.1

      It’s not possible to help those on low incomes into home ownership with property values at this level. So

      1. get more affordable homes built and prevent property from rising any further in value
      2. improve incomes

      But thanks for exposing the talking points on social media that those taking foreign donor money want disseminated.

  34. SPC 34

    As someone who supported the idea of a house building programme – where the government builds them and flicks on the houses to buyers (in Labour’s first term in opposition 2008-2011).

    Then, it was a way of intervening in the market in a cost effective way (we had budget problems back then) after the finance companies went bankrupt and banks were cautious about lending to private developers after the GFC. Those in the building sector had noted the low level of consents and were saying there would be a crisis – and so when the National government allowed the high levels of immigration there was going to be a huge spike in values because of the lack of supply. Thus unaffordability.

    Of course nothing was done and by the time Labour adopted the idea for the 2014 election the housing supply and demand problem had (predictably) worsened.

    For beginners (like Judith Collins)

    1. It’s about more houses being built
    2. It’s about more affordable homes being built (private developers will still cater to those who want to leave high valued inner city suburbs to move into a large newly built home elsewhere).

    And its about people who can pay off the mortgage with their own money buying the homes, so the scheme rolls over – is self-financing.

    I get it that National is upset that people they regard as bribeable with tax cuts are being helped by Kiwibuild (and thus their concern over free tertiary education as well) – as such universality makes Labour’s appeal mainstream.

    BUT there was little choice in that with unaffordability reaching such epic proportions those on low incomes just cannot afford the mortgages (especially with a risk of an interest rate rise).

    That might change later if house prices stablise for a few years (or even fall back 10%) and incomes improve (MW increases and relativity, and slowing immigration leading to real gains across the labour market). Then the terms for Kiwibuild homes could tighten up.

  35. OnceWasTim 35

    Jesus H Christ. I never realised just how much Lisa Owen was up her own arse.
    Checkpoint: We wanted to talk to Mr Twyford “but he didn’t want to talk to us”

    I’m no defender of Mr Phil, but FFS!.

    I just turned over from Parliament TV where he was present and had been for quite some time, I’d heard him earlier on Morning Report. Then of course there were the necessities of bodily functions, travel, actually doing some useful work in between.

    So what Lisa Owen actually meant was “he didn’t want to talk to me at my beck and call and according to MY agenda”.
    Dress it up in any pin stripe you like Lisa, but at least be a little reasonable

    • Gosman 35.1

      John Campbell used to do exactly the same thing. Of course he was a lefty so that make it okay /sarc.

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