National's Policy Machine is a thing to behold

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1. Reality 1

   16 May 2023 at 9:03 am

   The PM's moments of speechlessness on hearing about the certificate said it all! It's not often he is without an immediate response. As he said it would be like the old bank statements going out. And then Nicola Willis thinks it could be done with AI. Nutty.
2. Peter 2

   16 May 2023 at 9:16 am

   The real NatFans will be invigorated by the stroke of Luxon/Willis genius and off on some ‘holding the bastards accountable’ euphoria fix.

   Meanwhile we can be certain of the message for consumers: “No brain cells were used in the production of this policy.”
   • Tricledrown 2.1

     16 May 2023 at 9:20 am

     Inspired by Don Brash they can line up at the post office every morning.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.1

       16 May 2023 at 9:32 am

       Yes, I can remember that asinine ass and his comment. Nact…(driven by act) would see us right….there

       https://etc.bdir.in/quotes/view/MTA3MDQ2Mg==
3. PsyclingLeft.Always 3

   16 May 2023 at 9:19 am

   Tax cuts for the wealthy and a tax increase for the poor

   National : its a given.

   But this on the Standard saying NZ needs more …multimillionaires?!

   15 May 2023 at 10:22 am …..3.1

   And after all the exposing of how…little tax the rich pay. The "Trickle down" lie revisited…

   https://natlib.govt.nz/records/37118919
   • arkie 3.1

     16 May 2023 at 9:25 am

     An expression of faith in Economism:

     …the misleading application of basic lessons from Economics 101 to real-world problems, creating the illusion of consensus and reducing a complex topic to a simple, open-and-shut case.

     https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/economism-and-the-minimum-wage/513155/
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1.1

       16 May 2023 at 9:42 am

       Aye for sure. And re multi millionaires. I have worked for some ..millionaires. Everything they spent on..was scrutinised/micromanaged to a ridiculous … even be laughable, if it wasnt the poor worker/tradie/shop being fucked over A tighter bunch of tightwads would be hard to imagine…

       The "trickle down" BS. I ..and many others, know it to be so true.
       • Patricia Bremner 3.1.1.1

         16 May 2023 at 12:06 pm

         Micro managing must be part of being wealthy!!

         We have relatives like that.

         Questioning every expense is normal, and expecting discounts, freebies or add -ons as part of any exchange, regular.

         Refunds are demanded for trivial reasons.

         It is incessant "are we getting the most for that dollar"

         Generosity is kept for their own, and seen as profligate in others.

         This is part of “tax” is my money, not the Government “funding a functioning society”
         • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1.1.1.1

           17 May 2023 at 9:13 am

           Firstly, Good Morn Patricia. : ). Seems to have been…a while. Hope you are well and allgood ? You are def "on the money" there. FYI certainly understand people on "Struggle Street" who HAVE to watch every cent… (sadly been there : (

           But as you vouch….these wealthy…(and as I say, millionaire) types…are never going to "trickle down" much of anything…

           And, unsurprisingly, nearly always Nact types.

           They have the policies that best support them and their ilk…

           IMO much better that all can..

           "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

           NZ could be..that Paradise….ON Earth : )
           • Patricia Bremner 3.1.1.1.1.1

             17 May 2023 at 10:56 am

             We are good thank you donating our little fortnightly amount to try to counter the "big boys end of town" (a bit sexist as there are now a few "Big Girls" as well. )

             I hope that all who are able, are supporting Labour's 2 for 1 fund raiser Hayden Munroe is running for us as donations will be matched $ for $. (Trying to counter Nats' 5 mill.)

             Yes, we are fortunate to be in this part of the world. The stresses we are having following the pandemic/storms fall out are at least recognised by this Govt.

             The events which have been beyond their control have been extraordinary, and we are all tired. However as James said, we still need to demand better for those who are falling through the cracks.

             Things are tight for business. We went to one to buy a bed which will help us get in and out, (raise the foot or head) for our real old age .

             The lady serving us said we had "made her day" as things have really slowed here, and added both her children had been made redundant in Australia so she felt pleased to have a job.

             We told her Grant is having an operation tomorrow on the Gold Coast, and the bed was meant to be our trip!! We found the airport horrible last year, and "carbon" guilt set in. We video call often, so feel instantly updated connected as past generations never could for so little cost.

             Thanks for reaching out PLA All the best.
4. Tiger Mountain 4

   16 May 2023 at 9:36 am

   For the sake of all that is good in Aotearoa NZ, and what could be better…please, please, Natzos retain the services of Baldrick Mark Luxon as your leader into the 2023 General Election!
5. tsmithfield 5

   16 May 2023 at 10:07 am

   I don't think anyone said anything about mailing information out. That is soo last century.

   But, I don't have any problem with people knowing how their taxes are being spent. I would be surprised if anyone here does either.

   I think one of the reasons why people get pissed off about the amount of taxes they pay is because it seems almost the same as giving money to an alcoholic. Most people likely would not mind paying taxes if they thought the money was being well spent.

   Case in point, look at how much money has been wasted on investigating and progress costs in the various programs and projects the government has scrapped recently. And, some of those ideas were highly dubious in the first place. For instance, the TVNZ/RNZ merger.
   • Bearded Git 5.1

     16 May 2023 at 11:18 am

     Good to see you doubling down on this idiotic policy tsmith. It will never be heard of again.
   • SPC 5.2

     16 May 2023 at 11:32 am

     Case in point, look at how much money has been wasted on investigating and progress costs in the various programs and projects the government has scrapped recently. And, some of those ideas were highly dubious in the first place. For instance, the TVNZ/RNZ merger.

     You are aware that National wants Treasury to do this with all government programmes each and every year.

     Has this policy been costed?
     • dv 5.2.1

       16 May 2023 at 11:58 am

       COSTED .

       Yes but That would cost too much!!!
   • bwaghorn 5.3

     16 May 2023 at 12:36 pm

     Tax surly goes into a pool so any government spending is likely to have a %of your tax in it, I'm quit sure luxoffs recipt will tell me exactly where my tax went.

     Fuckers are loons
     • Nic the NZer 5.3.1

       16 May 2023 at 12:58 pm

       There is no pool of cash sitting around inside the IRD, or the RBNZ. Its mostly electronic and the RBNZ has the authority to put what ever numbers are needed into the government account (or the commercial banks accounts) to clear payments.
   • Craig H 5.4

     16 May 2023 at 2:31 pm

     Would you rather government agencies stopped doing business cases and other investigative work?
   • Mike B 5.5

     17 May 2023 at 2:44 pm

     The Labour supporters are very quick to bring up the potential costs of a supposed statement that will spell out what the government has spent tax dollars on. But they do not want to hear about the billions wasted by the current government. Just this week, thousands of certificates have been printed and posted out to all those involved with COVID work! How much did that cost?

     [please supply some details about the certificates so we know what you are talking about – weka]
     • weka 5.5.1

       17 May 2023 at 7:11 pm

       mod note.
6. Ngungukai 6

   16 May 2023 at 10:16 am

   Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, tax …,,, ????
7. AB 7

   16 May 2023 at 10:23 am

   You are right to note that the information provided to taxpayers under this NACT policy is trivial, uninformative or meaningless at the individual level, and relatively easily obtained elsewhere. But that's not the point of the policy – it's a cultural stake in the ground.

   The intention is to change the notion of taxation that people have in their heads. To move it away from a generalised sense that society has to function and I'm obliged to contribute my share because I can earn what I do only because a functional society exists in the first place. They want to shift the thinking towards an individuated, transactional mindset of "what am I getting for my money that you forcibly take from me?" It's the crudest repeat of 1980's and 1990's – a doubling-down on the most regressive ideology of that period , which is all the really lies behind Luxon's fake bonhomie and corporate blather.
   • tsmithfield 7.1

     16 May 2023 at 10:36 am

     They want to shift the thinking towards an individuated, transactional mindset of "what am I getting for my money that you forcibly take from me?

     I don't think that is the right way of looking at it. My way of looking at tax is that it should be spent in the best way to benefit society as a whole. And, hopefully gain economies of scale by being able to bulk purchase for the whole country (e.g. as in Pharmac).

     But, when money is tipped down the toilet continually on ideas that were bad in the first place, and then get abandoned anyway after huge amounts were spent on them, it is not surprising that people get resentful about how their tax money is spent.
     • arkie 7.1.1

       16 May 2023 at 10:48 am

       It's not 'tax payers money' if it is owed as tax:

       Richard Murphy, one of the founders of the UK’s Tax Justice Network and author of The Joy of Tax, explains that “taxpayers’ money” is the money left in our pockets after we have paid taxes that are legally due. Money payable through taxes is the government’s property.

       This is quite easy to prove — try not paying your income tax and see if the courts will enforce government property rights in that money.

       …

       If the government is the legal owner of its funds, then, does it hold tax revenue in trust for taxpayers? Not at all. Subject to the rule of law, governments can do what they choose with their money.

       https://theconversation.com/government-funds-are-not-taxpayer-money-media-and-politicians-should-stop-confusing-the-two-153195
       • Liberty Belle 7.1.1.1

         16 May 2023 at 1:52 pm

         Tax is money taken lawfully from those who have earned it, that is tax payers. The government becomes the legal owner of those monies, by their ability to legislate for taxes. But who is the government? In a democracy they are the representatives of the people. The government may be legally able to spend the money on what they want, but they are at least ethically/morally bound to exercise prudence and careful judgement. Successive governments have failed in various ways to achieve that.
         • arkie 7.1.1.1.1

           16 May 2023 at 1:55 pm

           our actionable right as electors is to vote a wasteful government out of office. The electorate as a whole, rather than an ideological interest group, determines the size of government we should have.

           Unlike trust beneficiaries, we do not have an equitable interest in the government’s money. If it were otherwise, groups of taxpayers might have some claim on the government to spend or not spend its money in particular ways. (my bold)

           https://theconversation.com/government-funds-are-not-taxpayer-money-media-and-politicians-should-stop-confusing-the-two-153195
           • Liberty Belle 7.1.1.1.1.1

             16 May 2023 at 4:31 pm

             "Unlike trust beneficiaries, we do not have an equitable interest in the government’s money. "

             In strict legal terms, no. In ethical terms, absolutely we do. Taxpayers fund the government, and as such any responsible government has the obligation to spend our money wisely.
             • arkie …

               16 May 2023 at 6:06 pm

               And within the institution of representative democracy, electors (read: us taxpayers) are obligated to vote out governments we deem irresponsible. Receiving a 'receipt' each year gives the false impression that we have any control over the individual line items of government spending. We don't, it's a daft and likely expensive gimmick designed to hamper progressive government.
               • Liberty Belle …

                 16 May 2023 at 7:47 pm

                 "Receiving a 'receipt' each year gives the false impression that we have any control over the individual line items of government spending. "

                 No, it gives information about how our money is being spent. No more, no less.
                 • arkie …

                   16 May 2023 at 8:11 pm

                   All of which is already available.

                   And, once again, it's not 'our' money.
                   • Liberty Belle …

                     16 May 2023 at 9:00 pm

                     So you're opposed to transparency? And yes, it is our money.
                   • lprent []

                     16 May 2023 at 9:15 pm

                     So you’re opposed to transparency?

                     All that they have to do is to put it up on the net. That is transparent. And guess what, it is already up on the net.

                     Can’t see any point in wasting money and resources in sending it out by snail-mail or any other personalised process – a process that is essentially obsolete.

                     This appears to be a policy made by a technical illiterate. Sounds like Chris Luxon or Chris Bishop.

                     And yes, it is our money.

                     So you approve of a wasting money and not just using the technically cheap solution? Perhaps you should explain why you’re wanting to grab cash and burn it for no purpose (apart from a stupid electioneering slogan).
                   • Incognito []

                     16 May 2023 at 9:34 pm

                     None is so blind as those who don’t want to see. I trust that you won’t be following Budget-2023 at all in the media because this would be the only way you can maintain your absurd partisan stance.

                     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/489949/national-s-christopher-luxon-unveils-trio-of-fiscal-transparency-policies
                 • Liberty Belle …

                   17 May 2023 at 9:16 am

                   "All that they have to do is to put it up on the net. That is transparent. And guess what, it is already up on the net."

                   No. Transparency is not just about access, it is about ease to access.
         • Incognito 7.1.1.1.2

           16 May 2023 at 9:24 pm

           The government may be legally able to spend the money on what they want

           Yes, in North Korea. However, in NZ the government is subject to public accountability and oversight – if the media do their job properly – and subject to legal and statutory limitations of which the former can only be changed through new legislation that requires a (winning) vote in Parliament.

           but they are at least ethically/morally bound to exercise prudence and careful judgement.

           Different governments may have different ethical or moral standards, or may face different political or economic pressures that influence their spending decisions, as we have seen in the government responses to the Covid-19 pandemic and natural disasters, for example. In any case, prudence and careful judgement are subjective and relative terms, i.e., who decides and on whose terms?

           Successive governments have failed in various ways to achieve that.

           Again, this is subjective and a matter of opinion and perspective that cannot be objectively verified or falsified. Different governments may have different priorities or goals in spending the tax money, with different outcomes or impacts. You and I may agree or disagree with these decisions or outcomes, but this does not necessarily mean that they are failures or successes, as you incorrectly assert.

           The only thing on which I agree with you is not matter of opinion but simply a fact, which is that the government is the legal owner of tax monies collected through its ability to legislate for taxes. Do you suggest we change this?

           And no, it is not ‘our money’, as you have already stated, correctly, that the government becomes the owner of those monies.
           • Liberty Belle 7.1.1.1.2.1

             17 May 2023 at 9:26 am

             "And no, it is not ‘our money’, as you have already stated, correctly, that the government becomes the owner of those monies."

             As I have said, that is the legal position. The moral position is that they have a duty of care to taxpayers, from whom the money is ultimately taken.

             "Again, this is subjective and a matter of opinion and perspective that cannot be objectively verified or falsified. "

             To some degree, although this government has provided many examples that don't pass any reaonsable test.

             $220k on a movie about a Green party MP.

             A 46% increase in comms bureaucrats (Government blames COVID-19 for 46 percent increase in communications staff | Newshub).

             $600k for empty buildings in Auckland (Government pays up to $600k for prime Auckland office space to lie empty | Stuff.co.nz).

             $330k to open a motorway (Billion-dollar Transmission Gully opening ceremony cost $337,000 | Stuff.co.nz)

             $24m on KO office space (Revealed: Kāinga Ora spent over $24m of taxpayer money in four years on its own office renovations | Newshub).

             There's a long list of poor spending decisions.
             • Christopher Randal …

               17 May 2023 at 10:27 am

               You seem to like equating morals with Government. There is no such correlation because when in power politicians care nothing for their fellow man.

               I would love to be able to say "here is my tax – use it to spend on MY healthcare"
               • Liberty Belle …

                 17 May 2023 at 11:15 am

                 Fair comment. But the poor character of politicians doesn't, in and of itself, remove the moral obligation to be responsible and prudent.
           • Liberty Belle 7.1.1.1.2.2

             17 May 2023 at 9:36 am

             "You and I may agree or disagree with these decisions or outcomes, but this does not necessarily mean that they are failures or successes, as you incorrectly assert."

             There are some that are objective failures.

             "Auditor-General John Ryan today published a letter to Inland Revenue Commissioner Peter Mersi voicing concerns the sloppy rollout of the payment did not exhibit good stewardship of public money."

             Jacinda Ardern fronts post-Cabinet press conference after Auditor-General criticises cost-of-living rollout – NZ Herald
       • Shanreagh 7.1.1.2

         16 May 2023 at 9:51 pm

         Yes you are correct Arkie and this is never more stark when we see the shenanigans that some firms get up with PAYE.

         They should be collecting the tax on behalf of the Government, it does not belong at that stage to the person who has earned it as they have 'agreed' to pay the tax they owe on a time payment system (Pay As You Earn), instead of at year's end. It does not belong to the firm either. The firms have collected the money on behalf to hold until the correct time to pass it on to IRD.

         Once the funds are in the coffers of the Govt then the punter can look via elections etc, budgets etc to see which party makes use or will make use and how they make use of the funds collected from taxation and other sources. We long ago (King John & the Robber Barons) handed over our (if we were a baron) ability to do things that govts now do such as tax or levy, raise armies, imprison someone etc.

         Individuals don't have a ring fenced amount that they can track.
     • Stuart Munro 7.1.2

       16 May 2023 at 12:14 pm

       Tax isn't the biggest thing that is being wasted here. The National Party are a waste of time and space in Parliament – and the stunts they pull to enrich their cronies are very expensive, though often they destroyed capital value, as was the case of Solid Energy, or human potential as was the case of everything they ever did to education or the civil service.

       If we're going to start accounting for costs, I've a few markers to call in from the Gnats – and entirely too many from the post-Douglas Labour Party – shameful creatures that they are.
     • bwaghorn 7.1.3

       16 May 2023 at 12:41 pm

       If you want it spent in the best possible way, you .use be distraught that we're paying luxon to come up with nothing useful as leader of the opposition
       • Ngungukai 7.1.3.1

         16 May 2023 at 4:53 pm

         When are National going to retease some actual policies ?
         • Incognito 7.1.3.1.1

           16 May 2023 at 5:03 pm

           On Friday the 13th, i.e. Black Friday, at 5 pm, National will dump a shitload of bullet points. In October.
         • Corey 7.1.3.1.2

           16 May 2023 at 8:06 pm

           When are Labour going to announce any policies?

           2020 was virtually bereft of any policies from the major parties and 2023 is looking to be even worse.

           The country is falling apart and our political leaders are telling us "don't worry we got this , we'll let you know later ”

           Releasing policy manifestos two weeks out from the election is disgraceful in the era of early voting, we must know what your policies are before the first vote is cast.
           • logie97 7.1.3.1.2.1

             17 May 2023 at 10:10 am

             Your comments would be worth reading if you stopped the hyperbole.

             The country is not falling apart. That line has been trotted out since nations existed. In New Zealand we get it chanted every three years leading up to and then from immediately after each election by opposition parties of all hues.

             The general thread of government policy might not suit your persuasion, but year on year, where is the evidence that the New Zealand economy is crashing compared with the previous year/government/decade/century.
           • Anne 7.1.3.1.2.2

             17 May 2023 at 10:33 am

             When are Labour going to announce any policies?

             One more sleep to go.
   • Mac1 7.2

     16 May 2023 at 10:47 am

     AB, very well put and so true.

     I’m obliged to contribute my share because I can earn what I do only because a functional society exists in the first place.”
   • Incognito 7.3

     16 May 2023 at 11:37 am

     100%!

     It is intrinsically divisive in trying to move away from a collective mindset to a self-serving ‘what’s-in-it-for-me’ individualistic attitude.

     ACT will love it!
   • Liberty Belle 7.4

     16 May 2023 at 1:42 pm

     "To move it away from a generalised sense that society has to function and I'm obliged to contribute my share because I can earn what I do only because a functional society exists in the first place."

     The problem is not funding a functional society. The problem is this government have taken wasting money to a whole new level.

     "They want to shift the thinking towards an individuated, transactional mindset of "what am I getting for my money that you forcibly take from me?""

     Or perhaps it's facilitating a much-needed conversation about what governments spend our money on, and how that provides benefits to society as a whole, as opposed to consultants in beaurecrats.
     • Stuart Munro 7.4.1

       16 May 2023 at 6:16 pm

       I like the idea of beaurecrats – an aesthetic or romantic touch to humanize the legions of whey-faced assassins of joy could only be an improvement.
       • Liberty Belle 7.4.1.1

         16 May 2023 at 7:52 pm

         Bureaucrats cost money. If they are providing essential services, they are useful.

         But then there's the 46% increase on comms staff (Government blames COVID-19 for 46 percent increase in communications staff | Newshub), the $24m spent on renovating KO offices (Revealed: Kāinga Ora spent over $24m of taxpayer money in four years on its own office renovations | Newshub) the spending of $1m on houses ready to be demolised (Government spends nearly $1m renovating homes that could soon be demolished – NZ Herald), the extravagant opening of Transmission Gully (Billion-dollar Transmission Gully opening ceremony cost $337,000 | Stuff.co.nz)…the list of waste is long.
         • Stuart Munro 7.4.1.1.1

           16 May 2023 at 8:18 pm

           Yeah – it has a lot to do with fending off a corrupt Murdoch-style media that gives constant life-support to unattractive offerings like Key and Luxon. You know, the kind of asinine aggression that pushed out the best PM in my lifetime with threats of violence because the Gnats could not imagine any even remotely plausible policy arguments.

           National of course employed no such spin merchants – Jason Ede and the Oily Orca's Orifice must've been spontaneously generated by a benignant providence to keep that corrupt hoser in power.
           • Liberty Belle 7.4.1.1.1.1

             16 May 2023 at 9:06 pm

             Seriously, if you think Jacinda was the best PM in your lifetime, and if you think she was pushed out by anything other than her own failure, then I have an old car to sell you.

             "it has a lot to do with fending off a corrupt Murdoch-style media that gives constant life-support to unattractive offerings like Key and Luxon."

             This is a claim the left constantly makes, but it doesn;t stand any scrutiny, as this study shows. MediaBias: Home
             • Stuart Munro …

               16 May 2023 at 9:33 pm

               Well you're obviously wildly credulous as well as misinformed – I've seen Chinese infomercials with better graphics, and with no examinable data, your aptly named 'mediabias' is slightly less credible than you.

               Here is a longform explanation of some of the innumerable failings of your authority of choice. Enjoy.
               • Liberty Belle …

                 17 May 2023 at 9:19 am

                 Nah. Mark just doesn't like being confronted with the outcome.

                 But if you don't like that one, here's another. Worlds of Journalism Study 2.0. Journalists in Aotearoa/ New Zealand. (farmersweekly.co.nz)
                 • Stuart Munro …

                   17 May 2023 at 4:47 pm

                   We know you only care about the outcome – that's why you built a fake tool. You worked back from your desired reports and built a system to report that.

                   It's essentially the same rort as iPredict – another RW folly to create the illusion that your barking inanity has an ever so tenuous link to objective reality.

                   It doesn't.
                   • LibertyBelle …

                     17 May 2023 at 7:42 pm

                     I didn’t build any tool, or any system. I’ve given 2 studies that both show left wing media bias in NZ. It really shouldn’t be a surprise.
                 • Stuart Munro …

                   17 May 2023 at 9:19 pm

                   It's not a surprise – you're a raging far-right buffoon with no respect for the truth whatsoever.

                   An AI sort is not a study.

                   No parameters given – no veracity to be expected – garbage in, garbage out. And the list of results make it abundantly clear that its parameters are nonsense.

                   The Harold a leftwing rag? Not in your craziest cryptofascist fantasies.
                   • Liberty Belle …

                     17 May 2023 at 10:14 pm

                     Here's how the first study was prepared. MediaBias: How it Works. Read it, you might learn something.

                     The second study, which you've avoided addressing, "is a collaboration of academics from more than 120 countries." Worlds of Journalism Study 2.0. Journalists in Aotearoa/ New Zealand. (farmersweekly.co.nz)

                     You're in complete denial if you think NZ media is not slanted left.
                 • Stuart Munro …

                   18 May 2023 at 5:27 am

                   You're in complete denial if you think NZ media is not slanted left.

                   Your sanity seems to be as fragile as your integrity on this issue.

                   But of course you don't understand the concept of bias, so of course you are unable to find plausible support for your whack-jobbery. NZ media may indeed, for the moment, be making more positive mentions of the Left than of the Right. That however does not constitute bias. For it to be bias, any positive mentions would need to be disproportionate, unbalanced, or untrue. As you struggle with the simple difference between truth and fiction (and indeed reality), this is probably not obvious to you.

                   We are not having a debate here – you have asserted a fatuous lie, and you would need considerably more than a marginal study or an outright AI fiction to make good upon your assertions.
                   • Liberty Belle …

                     18 May 2023 at 10:10 am

                     I have asserted with evidence. Suck it up.
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   18 May 2023 at 6:41 am

                   RIP centrism: Why Stuff is gradually moving left while the Herald inches right [19 November 2021]
                   What also happens the world over is that publishers are rewarded for dividing and provoking audiences. It’s that dynamic that is now beginning in earnest in NZ media.

                   Is The Media Biased? [10 October 2022]
                   As our economy becomes increasingly digital, and media industries become increasingly desperate for funds, Dr. Plaut questions whether the real media bias is moving toward “holding attention… giving people whatever will keep them online?

                   “That worries me as much as anything else.”

                   Mediawatch: Turning off the news? [9 April 2023]
                   “We noticed that there's 14,500 journalists in Finland – and about 2500 here. It does actually speak to what you can offer people. I think in New Zealand we're rushing the news. I'm not blaming journalists for that, because that same stuff has to be covered with fewer resources, but you're inevitably going to get thinner coverage,” Dr Treadwell said.

                   The WoJ Study 2.0 preliminary results reported in "Table 8: NZ journalists' political views" ['Table' 8 is actually a bar graph], show that of the 359 journalists who responded (to the ~1200 invitations sent), one journalist self-identified as "Right", two as "Hard right", and one as "Extreme right" – perhaps Counterspin Media founder, director and programme host Kelvyn Alp?

                   As the bar chart below shows, there are very few strongly right-wing journalists, but a substantial number of moderately or strongly left-wingers.

                   The corresponding left-wing numbers are ~78 "Left", ~52 "Hard left", and ~20 "Extreme left" journalists. Amazingly, there was no mention of these 'political views' results in the WoJ 'Highlights' section on page 2.

                   What a tribute to the professionalism (or laziness) of these abundant journalists with left-wing views (out-numbering the four right-wing journalists about 38-to-one) that media coverage of NZ politics in toto doesn't have an obvious bias.

                   While still committed to the traditional non-biased neutral observer role, journalists now feel their most important role is no longer letting people express their views, but educating the public.

                   One question – did the journalists in the Table 8 "00" category prefer not to answer? Can't wait for the final results for all countries in 2024.
                   • Liberty Belle …

                     18 May 2023 at 10:26 am

                     "that media coverage of NZ politics in toto doesn't have an obvious bias."

                     Well that's all about perception. And we'll see that in different and subjective ways.
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   18 May 2023 at 4:02 pm

                   Well that's all about perception. And we'll see that in different and subjective ways.

                   Perception is individual, and reality avoidance is real.

                   http://encyclopedia.uia.org/en/problem/avoidance-reality

                   "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality." – Ayn Rand

                   How might Rand have responded to the reality of global warming?

                   https://www.quora.com/What-would-Ayn-Rands-solution-for-climate-change-be

                   https://viewpointvancouver.ca/2014/06/09/quote-making-ayn-rand-furious/
                   • Liberty Belle …

                     18 May 2023 at 5:31 pm

                     I'll take the independent research over subjective reckons. With media bias and climate science.
       • Shanreagh 7.4.1.2

         16 May 2023 at 10:14 pm

         They would also be highly thought of as well as aesthetically pleasing or handsome. Perhaps also with a connection to a Southerner who led the attack on Fort Sumpter, thus starting the American Civil War, or is all this a bit cryptic SM?
         • Stuart Munro 7.4.1.2.1

           17 May 2023 at 5:43 am

           Or indeed to the defender of Fort Zinderneuf 😀 .
     • Shanreagh 7.4.2

       16 May 2023 at 10:06 pm

       Or perhaps it's facilitating a much-needed conversation about what governments spend our money on, and how that provides benefits to society as a whole, as opposed to consultants in beaurecrats.

       Indeed. But to have a conversation what is the benefit of having it when people don't understand that the Govt is not spending their money. The Govt is spending its money.

       And also when one of the results is as Incognito says

       move (s) away from a collective mindset to a self-serving ‘what’s-in-it-for-me’ individualistic attitude.

       And from Arkie

       And within the institution of representative democracy, electors (read: us taxpayers) are obligated to vote out governments we deem irresponsible.

       Aside from educating ourselves about what the Govts policies are and how much they are costing, our greatest efforts as voters is to look at records of spending, look at proposed policies, systems of financial management and then VOTE.

       The truism is that elections are not so much a vote for a party as against a party and that is Arkie's voting out of a government in action.
       • Liberty Belle 7.4.2.1

         17 May 2023 at 9:31 am

         "But to have a conversation what is the benefit of having it when people don't understand that the Govt is not spending their money. The Govt is spending its money."

         This is a philisophical divide. Any money the government derives is legally theirs by virtue of them deriving it by act of law. But that doesn't make it 'their' money. Morally that money belongs to taxpayers to be used by the government of their choice in a way that benefits NZ society. When a government wastes that money on a succession of failed policy intiatives, they breach that moral obligation.
         • Descendant Of Smith 7.4.2.1.1

           17 May 2023 at 11:17 am

           What a load of horseshit.

           Morally the money belongs to the government because that is the system we collectively choose to live under – not some wild west company town nor some non-government Randian nightmare.

           We live in a democracy where we elect people to represent us and to make decisions on our behalf and if we don't like the decisions they make we vote them out.

           At the same time it isn't unfettered decision making there are plenty of rules and restrictions e.g. budget cycles, publishing accounts, etc.

           Commonsense as well as research will also tell you that not everything tried will work – the classic example being bootcamps. The stupidest example I can think of was the flag referendum.

           It is interesting that you talk about failure as an indicator because three of the biggest policy failures by successive governments are:

           1. Selling income earning assets so that the states income is far more dependent on tax payers than revenue producing consumables such as electricity which us as consumers still pay for but revenues go to the well off instead of the state – even to the extent of us paying through our power bills for shareholders to get more in dividends than is paid in profits.
           2. increasing GDP through mass immigration without increasing the volumes of state housing to match resulting in a housing crisis
           3. Not putting sufficient aside for the well known and forecast future expense of NZ superannuation for the baby boomer population and increasing the age knowing full well that many Maori and pacific island and blue collar workers will not live long enough to get it.
           • LibertyBelle 7.4.2.1.1.1

             17 May 2023 at 7:47 pm

             “Morally the money belongs to the government because that is the system we collectively choose to live under “

             Says who? Governments only derive tax income through their ability to legislate, which is only theirs because we allow it.
8. Thinker 8

   16 May 2023 at 11:08 am

   Assuming this gets National elected and the policy implemented, it will make a great taxpayer-funded electioneering pamphlet, come 2026…

   IMHO, if the present government had implemented it, Luxon would be all over it, citing a waste of government spending in a recession and financial crisis, when what's printed and mailed out could easily be posted on a Beehive website page.
9. SPC 9

   16 May 2023 at 11:28 am

   How about National Party do a Scandinavia and let people see how much others earn and how much tax they pay?

   And how much assets they own (including shares in trusts) and thus their wealth as well.
10. tsmithfield 10

    16 May 2023 at 12:15 pm

    Back to the wasted spending theme I started earlier, another issue is the wasted spending that occurs due to changes of government. For instance, if National gets elected this time around, they are likely going to scrap some of the stuff that Labour has invested taxpayer funds into. And the same again in three years time if Labour gets back in.

    And, I don't what to do about that issue other than changing the way we elect governments entirely.

    So, taking everything together, I don't think tax payers actually get very good value for the taxes they pay. Either because governments spend huge amounts on projects and programs with dubious value, or that get discontinued after having vast amounts spent on them, or get canned by incoming governments.

    I think taking everything together, the churn would be enourmous.

    So, I think that the analogy of tax being akin to giving money to an alcholic is actually not that far from the truth.

    The question is, what can be done to improve the value for taxpayers as a whole.
    • tc 10.1

      16 May 2023 at 1:34 pm

      Good point as this lack of a bi-partisan approach burns money as nact go if labour then bad so it must be reversed.

      This ideological approach sees us with poor infrastructure, leaky buildings, flogged assets etc to name just a few of the outcomes.
      • tsmithfield 10.1.1

        16 May 2023 at 1:51 pm

        And I am not blaming Labour. I think it happens which ever government is in power.

        I have a suggestion to solve it below. Though, I doubt much will come of it.
    • Incognito 10.2

      16 May 2023 at 1:39 pm

      The question is, what can be done to improve the value for taxpayers as a whole.

      Ultimately, and arguably, lowering the 5% electoral threshold. Not doing so is wasting time & money, as you allege.
    • Drowsy M. Kram 10.3

      16 May 2023 at 3:17 pm

      So, I think that the analogy of tax being akin to giving money to an alcholic is actually not that far from the truth.

      Can't trust 'em with 'our' money, eh? Talk about 'giving' money to an alcoholic!

      Bank profits 'costing New Zealanders $2000 a year each' [3 March 2023]
      Other things that should be investigated are bank lobbying power, and the move straight from Parliament to banks some ministers have made, including Sir John Key (to ANZ) and Simon Power (to Westpac).

      NZ govts (some more than others) continue to 'treat' major trauma by applying band-aids at the bottom of cliffs, and the devil take the hindmost. Taxation is a public good; for example when it's used to fund services dealing with alcohol-related harm.

      Cost of alcohol to society
      In 2020, alcohol contributed $1.193 billion of government revenue in the form of excise tax.
      In contrast, alcohol misuse is estimated to cost New Zealand society $7.85 billion each year. This includes costs resulting from lost productivity, unemployment, as well as justice, health, ACC, welfare costs, etc. Costs of alcohol harm exceed that of other drug harm.

      In a random coincidence, the 2020 difference ($6.66 billion) between the cost of alcohol misuse, and alcohol excise tax, is similar to 2022 bank profits ($7.2 billion).

      It seems impossibly difficult to implement many of the recomendations of expert reports on reducing alcohol-related harm in Aotearoa NZ. Why might that be?

      Evidence-based alcohol policies: Building a fairer and healthier future for Aotearoa New Zealand [November 2020; PDF]
      We recognise the endless possibilities for our county with less alcohol harm. Everything we care about will start to improve – better mental wellbeing, reduced suicide, safer roads and communities, less family harm, improved child wellbeing and better physical health (e.g. fewer injuries and cancers.)
      …
      The evidence-base is extensive, strong and consistent. In the past decade, recommendations for stronger legislative action have been repeatedly made – by the Law Commission, Ministerial Forum on Alcohol Advertising and Sponsorship and the Mental Health and Addiction Inquiry Panel.

      Btw, of the seven happiest countries (all OECD members) in 2021, six had higher Tax-to-GDP ratios than Aotearoa NZ (ranked 9th for happiness) – go figure.

      Tax compliance, public spending and happiness in Europe
      [16 December 2021]
      The design of policies aimed at improving individual, corporate and the well-being of nations needs them to incorporate elements of tax compliance as an objective that has economic and social implications. Individuals and corporates contribute to a fairer and more equitable society through compliance with tax obligations.
11. Phillip ure 11

    16 May 2023 at 12:27 pm

    Receipts:..what a wheeze..!

    There is a pattern with our current crop of right-wing leaders..

    The male leader issues a major brain-fart…and their female deputy comes out to try and clean up the ensuing/inevitable mess..

    Both luxon and brown have that as their modus-operandi..

    (And will luxon wear those coronation-trou again…?…please say it is so..!)
    • Tiger Mountain 11.1

      16 May 2023 at 1:34 pm

      Low rider baggies, keep the fashion crimes coming Natzos…
12. Hunter Thompson II 12

    16 May 2023 at 1:04 pm

    Too right about the wasteful spending issue.

    National really has taken a wrong turn here, 'cos on Thursday a man called Robertson who does Finance Minister impressions will reveal all on proposed government revenues and outlays.
13. Adrian 13

    16 May 2023 at 1:37 pm

    Just read Gordon Campbell on Luxon On Receipt Of the Century and a very good read it is, and its on this page. It occurred to me that if every one gets a tally of everything thats been spent on them then that information is inevitably available to everyone else. How long is it going to take before those with a nefarious mind set start leaking that info, how long before those with ongoing health and mental issues get their expenses available for all to see and at what cost to their health?

    Labour have to go after these brainless dickheads hard, highlighting the Stasi-like approach that the Nats are embarking on. Labour needs a mongrel arsehole to lead the attack from the trenches. Pass my name on anyone who knows it, I'd loved to get right up the bastards.
14. Tiger Mountain 14

    16 May 2023 at 1:39 pm

    The report we should see: the penetration of private capital into the NZ state in all respects…and the profits extracted from infrastructure that working class people literally built or paid for.
    –power generation & supply
    –education
    –forestry
    –agriculture & horticulture
    –rail and shipping
    –health care
    –road construction & maintenance
    –public service
    –tele communications & post
    • Ad 14.1

      16 May 2023 at 4:51 pm

      +100 Tiger
15. tsmithfield 15

    16 May 2023 at 2:01 pm

    Here is my suggestion for eliminating the churn associated with poor spending, and waste that occurs due to policies being canned after changes of government etc:

    1. Abandon the adverserial party system.

    2. Go to voting for roles instead of parties. Similar to what happens in council elections now.

    3. Set minimum standards to qualify for roles. So, for instance, someone wanting to be minister of finance would have to have a background in public finance at a high level.

    4. The person voted to each role gets to appoint their own team to administer the role. This would minimise the number of roles that need to be voted for.

    Ideally we would end up with a system that has say 10 roles that are voted for. A key advantage is that there would be a lot of ability and experience in the government in relevant areas. And there would likely be a lot less chopping and changing.
    • Adrian 15.1

      16 May 2023 at 5:07 pm

      That would eliminate just about every past National Finance Minister at a stroke even the small town accountants who couldn't count the change in their pockets.
      • tsmithfield 15.1.1

        16 May 2023 at 10:37 pm

        And the current finance minister as well I think…
16. alwyn 16

    16 May 2023 at 2:27 pm

    I started reading this post with its argument that getting all this information by an individual taxpayer was very easy to do. It was suggested that anyone could do it and that it was therefore a total waste of time and money for it to be bundled up and passed to the taxpayer by the Government.

    Then I took a short break to go and collect that ancient old snail-mail that people here are telling me is obsolete. What did I find? Surprise, surprise. A letter, in an envelope, from Chippie. He wanted to tell me how kind he, and his party, were by increasing my superannuation payment. He didn't tell me it was because his Government had lost control of their budget and of the inflation rate which is now worse than it has been for about 35 years. It was because he loved me (and incidentally he wants my vote).

    Wow. What a surprise. It was as if this was something new that I hadn't realised was happening. I suppose it has been sent to every person in the country who is getting National Super. That is about 850,000 people. The envelope was marked as being post paid. At $1.70 for the standard postage that is about $1,500,000 for posting it out. We won't look at what it cost to print and mail. It is already far to much to tolerate.

    Well, if ever there was something I knew about it was this. I have already been told about it by the Department. I have had that information repeated in a mailout by my local MP, who happens to be the Minister of Finance. Now I get the PM repeating the message.

    What a total waste of taxpayer's money And it is taxpayer's money. It may be Labour Party election advertising in fact but they aren't paying for it. The taxpayer is. The HoR crest on the envelope is the give-away.

    Well frankly I would rather get the National Party proposed information. That is something that would require some effort for me to obtain and I doubt if they are going to send out three letters repeating the stuff.

    Why aren't you complaining about Chippies' extravagance?
    • lprent 16.1

      16 May 2023 at 4:08 pm

      I got that same one from Chippie. I'm coming up for superannuation in a little over a year. So it is directly kind of pointless for me at present and is likely to remain so for some time (I have no interest in stopping work).

      However, like many of my age, it is of interest to me because my aged father is not working and does receive those benefits. I pay taxes to make sure that he and those like him can live a reasonable life without fear of freezing or starving. Same for the various nieces, nephews, and the generations after them now starting get skilled. Just as my grandparents and parents did.

      More to the point we get exactly the same kind of guff from National's MPs funded through the same sources. Just with less accuracy and of less interest. Why do I care if they feel hard done by. Now we have National wanting to do more of it.

      For that matter I’d expect to see National wasting their cash stockpile pushing junk usually false ‘facts’ and outright lies throughout the campaign period.

      Act and their dickhead offshoots like ‘Taxpayers Union’ already are. I had fun responding to one the other day pointing out that the taxpayers union wouldn’t recognise an log-term efficiency if it was right in front of them. There certainly is no recognition of downstream costs in anything that they have advocated in the past 5 years. “Short-term and stupid” has to be their motto…

      Why aren't you complaining about their extravagance?
      • alwyn 16.1.1

        16 May 2023 at 6:14 pm

        "I’d expect to see National wasting their cash stockpile".

        If a party wants to spend their own money on this sort of thing I haven't the slightest objection.

        It is when they use taxpayer's money to run stuff that is purely election campaigning that I object. In this case it cannot, I think, be presented as something people need to be told about again. Anyone who is entitled to it was told about it by the department, in distinctly less political terms.

        And I do object to any party running stuff like this using taxpayer's money. I don't, on the other hand, worry about them promoting that an electorate MP has an office where you can get help or is holding and open forum where people can ask questions. That is a reasonable use of taxpayers money. This isn't.
17. roy cartland 17

    16 May 2023 at 4:35 pm

    I think that what the NP understands is that within the constant barrage of (dis/mis)information, there will be a sizeable chunk who just want to be told what they want to hear. We have discussed the poor (and lack of positive) messaging and comms from the GOV on this site several times: around their covid strategies, around their achievements and progress.

    The NP aren't completely stupid – they're betting on the 'fed up and time for a change' faction, and I think there are scarily plenty of those. I'm one, in a few respects.

    All power to the good writers on this site and others who can provide the counter to the negativity, and remind us how far we've come, you are more valuable now than ever.
18. Weasel 18

    17 May 2023 at 11:36 am

    I could have been blown over by Wellington's non-existent wind of yesterday when I heard National Party leader Chris Luxon saying after the Loafers Lodge Hostel fire tragedy that he's all in favour of regulation.
    Interviewed on RNZ's Morning Report he said: "I'm all for strengthening regulations. If we need to strengthen regulations we'd definitely do that…. I make no apology for strengthening regulations if it saves lives – that's a bigger priority than anything else." This is from the man who rails against "Wellington" as the creator of regulations. This is from the party that conducted a deregulation conflagration that culminated in the Pike River tragedy that killed 29 men. If, fate forbid, Luxon becomes prime minister in October, it will do well to remember his words and hold him to account as National inevitably attempts to dismantle rules and regulations put in place to save lives.
    • roy cartland 18.1

      17 May 2023 at 4:24 pm

      As much as I don't trust or even believe the guy, I agree with him. I reckon it's a good thing that the NATs are saying this. Using the R-word must have hurt a lot, for some of them in that party.
19. Mike B 19

    17 May 2023 at 3:23 pm

    Funny how you clowns won't allow the truth posted here. Show some balls and let the truth be posted. You know like all the wasted spending by this government etc. But I know you do not have the balls to allow this so enjoy your selected posts. As long as you have a warm and fuzzy feeling, all is well.

    [funny how some clowns change their username or email address when commenting, get caught in the spam filter because the system thinks they’re a new commenter, and then blames TS mods for not publishing their comments because of politics, when all that has is happened is the comment has to be released manually. – weka]
    • weka 19.1

      17 May 2023 at 7:12 pm

      mod note.
    • Mike the Lefty 19.2

      17 May 2023 at 8:20 pm

      What wasteful spending is that Mike B?

      Really, I would like to know.
    • tsmithfield 19.3

      18 May 2023 at 9:35 am

      As a right winger who posts here fairly regularly, I think you need to up the quality of your posts a lot.

      If you want wasted government spending highlighted, then you need to do it. Provide evidence to back up the claim. Then be prepared to enter into reasoned discussion about it.

      While I often disagree with others here for obvious reasons, I find people are generally fair and polite if you post in the same way.
20. Mike the Lefty 20

    17 May 2023 at 8:13 pm

    With National it will be more like misinformation,.

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