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Ok, I’m pissed off with the Labour caucus again. Time to switch

Written By: - Date published: 10:44 am, August 1st, 2017 - 129 comments
Categories: Andrew Little, greens, labour, nz first, political alternatives, politicans, Politics - Tags:

I think that Andrew Little standing down was a mistake. I can’t think of anyone in the Labour caucus capable of doing anything much between now and the election. That is either a panic reaction or part of a caucus whisper campaign. Labour should have just stayed the course and worked harder to get rid of National out of government.

To say that I’m pissed off about whatever happened and deeply suspicious about the action of the caucus, would be an understatement. The vote in 2013 by the whole of the Labour party as a group to install Andrew Little was quite clear. He wasn’t exactly my choice of a best candidate, but he was the best candidate to cut across the whole party and their supporters. Especially bearing in mind the damage that the faction fighting inside the caucus had done since Helen Clark stood down after the 2008 election.

I neither have time or the inclination to dig around to see the machinations that caused this to happen in the 3 month window when caucus alone can elect the leader of the parliamentary party. But I am deeply suspicious about the timing and abrupt nature that it isn’t a coincidental move. It looks to me like a deliberate roll via whisper campaign and a general lack of support in a caucus. I’ve had rumors of a move by the conservatives and ambitious in the caucus to do this for a while.

So I’m going to party vote Green again. At least their party structure works all the way through to their parliamentary wing. It doesn’t seem to have the kind of self-interested political stupidity that is so evident in the Labour caucus. At present they look like they could form the basis of a more rational government.

I’ll revisit Labour again when the leadership is put up for members and affiliates after the election. But for now the Greens offer a viable alternative on the centre-left.

For the more conservative among the readers, NZ First has quite a lot of left leaning economic policy past their social conservatism.

While there are some smaller parties around, none of them look like they’d hit the 5% threshold or gain a seat even with the foolishness this morning.

However I would urge people to just vote to get National out of government. Their economic and social management over the last 9 years has been appallingly short-term. It is storing problems for the future for our countries kids and grandkids. Time to get rid of them.

129 comments on “Ok, I’m pissed off with the Labour caucus again. Time to switch ”

  1. r0b 1

    I’m going to respectfully disagree.

    Andrew Little, good man, many thanks to him.

    But whatever Labour was doing wasn’t working, and Little doomed himself when he speculated about resigning. The media’s just going to tear you apart after that.

    Jacinda is a genuinely new generation, and a chance of a way forward, all the best to her.

    • lprent 1.2

      Whatever. The Labour caucus in my view has just been tearing itself apart for the last 9 years. I’d give examples, but we have been watching this for quite some time.

      In my view it shows no signs of improving and has steadily been going from good to worse. The party leadership did a pretty good effort to try to resolve that problem point when they put in the new rules about leadership and tried to improve the processes to involve members.

      I’d been getting pretty hopeful over the last couple of years that caucus had gotten to the point of a new level of maturity and stopped acting like idiotic adolescents. But the timing of this and general process of this resignation makes me think that it simply went underground waiting for an opportunity to leverage the 3 month window before the election.

      I have no particular interest in continuing to helping a system that has clearly failed to produce any cohesive results and can do something so outright politically stupid.

      • garibaldi 1.2.1

        Mallard and co. need to be purged once and for all.

        • exkiwiforces

          Purged you are being to soft on him, he should be used as a duck decoy next duck hunting season. As for the rest of them stip them of their membership and face the music from the grass root members.

      • Anne 1.2.2

        I’m with lprent on this one. We’ve both been around the Labour Party a long time and observed the machinations inside the Labour hierachy, and their parliamentary equivalents, from the inside looking out, and from the outside looking in. We’ve got form when it comes to understanding the nature of their respective ‘modus operandi’ and its not always a pretty sight. I could go on to detail what I mean but frankly can’t be bothered.

        I, too, was hopeful that the elevation of Little would put an end to the factionalism and he certainly has held them in check. However, its now starting to look like the leading parliamentary lights have taken advantage of the current situation and (I suspect) exacted their revenge on the membership and affiliated unions for daring to go against their wishes in the leadership election 2 years ago. Unfortunately, the weaker members of caucus appear to have not stood up to them and have been rolled into line.

        The truth will emerge one day.

        • RedLogix

          The idealist in me hoped for better too, but sadly I have to acknowledge that both of you have far more intimate experience with Labour than I ever will.

          This is not a pretty picture you’re painting. Is Jacinda intended to be nothing more than a nice, middle class veneer over a conservative agenda, or will she and Kelvin (who should not be underestimated either) be able to ‘go left’ and make a charge for a respectable election result?

          I suspect we will find out within a matter of weeks.

          • Anne

            Is Jacinda intended to be nothing more than a nice, middle class veneer over a conservative agenda, or will she and Kelvin (who should not be underestimated either) be able to ‘go left’ and make a charge for a respectable election result?

            I don’t class Jacinda as a conservative and Kelvin Davis has always impressed me as a good, honest, hard-working MP who is totally committed to raising standards for the poorest in society especially in the North. Both are highly intelligent. I have absolutely nothing against either of them. I just hate the way its happened, and I don’t trust the possible underlying motivations by a few of their colleagues.

            We will find out soon enough if they are going to be allowed to be their own bosses.

          • lprent

            It isn’t much different in the National caucus (think of Shipley rolling Bolger, Brash rolling English, Key rolling Brash).

            The problem is the bubble seems to make the MPs think that politics belongs to them and it becomes less about what is being attempted to achieve and more about personal interests dressed up as policy differences. Problem is that rolling leaders for no real reason apart from polls seldom works. But they keep doing it anyway. There really is only one good time to roll leaders and that is immediately after a failed election. You also in these social media days need a pretty transparent process that draws in their party – otherwise the discontent about process will reverberate for a long time afterwards (ie Goff (to a lesser extent), Shearer and English).

        • Philj

          A New Reality TV Show. ” Survivor – NZ LABOUR PARTY ” You cannot make this stuff up. Entertainment Gold. If Trump can do it, so can Jacinta. What will happen? Tune in next week!

      • Tracey 1.2.3

        National have cornered the white male steady as she goes look. Little, rightly or wrongly was too much samey samey looking and soubding as the Nats, no matter where his head and heart are.

        He was the right person to try to wedge away those Nats who move between Nat and Labour but he failed.

        It is now timd to try and engage the disinterested non voters. Therein ies the differentiation whhich makes Labour look less Nat lite.

      • Labour_Voter 1.2.4

        Thanks for an excellent post. I am also very disappointed.

      • Redbaiter 1.2.5

        Agree with Lprent and well said.

        Andrew Little is a good man and could have done a lot better with complete support.

        He was continually white anted, and although this is not the whole part of the low polling, it is IMHO the bulk of it.

      • exkiwiforces 1.2.6

        Fully agree with your comments and those self serving ice cream lickers deserve what they get at destroying the Labour Party. It’s bye bye

      • D'Esterre 1.2.7

        lprent: ” the timing of this and general process of this resignation makes me think that it simply went underground waiting for an opportunity to leverage the 3 month window before the election. ”

        It certainly looks like that. I’m very angry at Little’s ouster and I’m done with Labour.

        It infuriates me that I made a donation to the party the day before Little was forced out. Now Andrew Kirton is claiming a flood of extra donations over the last couple of days as an indication of public support for the change of leadership. It bloody is not, in my case at any rate! If I could get that money back, I would.

        Last night, I got the begging e-mail from Jacinda Ardern. Would I be getting my cheque-book (to coin a phrase) out? somebody asked me. Not. A. Chance.

        “I have no particular interest in continuing to helping a system that has clearly failed to produce any cohesive results and can do something so outright politically stupid.”

        Me either.

    • No she will be sacrificed into the fire because of the weakness of trying human sacrifice because the rain hasn’t come.

      • weka 1.3.1

        interesting metaphor. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the violence of mainstream politics. I looked at a video of Little the other day, he looked worn out, and it reminded me of how Cunliffe looked brutalised by the time of the election. This is macho politics at its worst, and its past time we found other ways of organising. I see direct connections between this violence and the societal violence against the poor as well as the beating that NZ is taking as a society. I could go on with the comparisons, colonisation, rape culture, suicide rates etc. I also see it within the left. Ugly as. Not that that is all we are, but maybe we need to look that monster in the face.

        • marty mars

          Yes it is brutal. The greens appear to have claimed a different angle to that.

          I agree about the violence – I think industrialised meat production and eating adds to that but perhaps a discussion for another time ☺

          • weka

            😆 yes (I already agree about the industrialised meat bit).

            I’d like to write something about the way that the Greens go about it all, haven’t got my thoughts straight yet though.

    • weka 1.4

      “But whatever Labour was doing wasn’t working, and Little doomed himself when he speculated about resigning. The media’s just going to tear you apart after that.”

      That doesn’t preclude there being machinations to roll Little. Perhaps that Labour is still capable of that is a sign of what is really wrong here and why Labour aren’t doing well. Looks to me like it’s still the age old split in the party.

      I like Ardern, but I haven’t seen her a ready to be leader yet, certainly not in the brutality of an election campaign. I hope she can up her game. Maybe the MSM will cut her some slack.

      • rhinocrates 1.4.1

        Off the top of my head, remembering John Campbell on RNZ yesterday, some voters were asked about Labour and their reasons for scepticism and their responses included irrelevance to workers, a talent puddle (rather than a talent pool) – and infighting.

        • weka

          I always want to know who those people will actually vote for though.

          Yes in fighting, who wants that shit going on while trying to govern.

          • garibaldi

            weka you say maybe the media will give her some slack. I say “Like hell they will”.

            • weka

              Sanctuary made a comment elsewhere about how she’s part of the class that most of the MSM belong to, and that will make a difference. I agree. I’m not suggesting they will give her a free run, but just that the dynamics have changed. She just shut down Corin Dann in the press conference, and even dealt with Paddy Gower easily. But early days.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Patrick Gower is the wrong tool for that job. The phrase “no longer useful” springs to mind.

          • rhinocrates


            I think Labour – as the Dems in the US found – need to stop thinking, ‘Well who would they vote for but us?’

            • weka

              Apparently NZF, but it still doesn’t make that much sense to me for the lefties.

    • But whatever Labour was doing wasn’t working…

      Labour was, and is, continuing to be right-wing.

    • Louis 1.6

      key speculated about resigning, how come he got away with it?

    • savenz 1.7

      @Rob, Yep, 50% winners in latest poll, beating National 47%. Little had a strategy and that was collaboration of Labour/Greens/NZ First to get the centre left block through to beat National.

      Now many Labour voters will turn to Greens, answer a lot. Greens and NZ First don’t get along as well, so push NZ First to National.

      Labour with Andrew Little was the glue keeping both parties together to beat National.

      It was working. Now wheels have rolled off. Jacinda is not strategic selfless Little. She’s better than Bill English as PM, but Little was the glue and the strategist. Make no mistake about it.

    • Tracey 1.8

      Agree 100%

  2. esoteric pineapples 2

    While humans can wait another three years for a change of government, there are some species in New Zealand that simply won’t survive another term of National.

  3. John61 3

    Definitely going with the Greens now!

  4. Michael 4

    I’m more likely to vote Labour than I was – not because of Little but because I think it’s necessary to save it from utter destruction. What really matters, though, is evidence that Labour’s caucus has empathy and solidarity with ordinary New Zealanders – the Precariat, in other words. Labour urgently needs to rebuild those links in time for the 2020 election but it needs a political base within Parliament to do that. So that’s why I think a Party Vote to Labour might not be completely wasted. But I’ll watch events closely between now and 23 September and, if Labour can’t or won’t change its perspective, I’ll vote Greens.

  5. weka 5

    Pretty much this. Plus Nash speaking against the Greens yesterday is a bad sign.

    • Gabby 5.1

      It would reassure some folk who might avoid voting Labour for fear of getting Green policies. Some folk don’t realise the Greens are unlikely to get their policies implemented wholesale

      • weka 5.1.1

        “Some folk don’t realise the Greens are unlikely to get their policies implemented wholesale”

        I doubt that is true. More likely is that some people just don’t want the Greens in govt at all. Nash can talk up his Waitakere Man thing without dissing the Greens. But he looks like he doesn’t actually want to be in govt with them. If Labour reneg on the MoU, the left will go hard after Labour and I doubt it will be pretty. We’ve been through this already and we know what happens (e.g. 2014 defeat). That is why Labour changed and engaged with the Greens directly as partners.

    • Nash is a bad sign.

      • weka 5.2.1

        Ardern put him in his place in the press conference.

        • Draco T Bastard

          And she’s probably going to have to keep doing it. He’s the type of person who will keep doing the wrong thing until he’s removed from the party. Then he’ll keep doing but it won’t matter any more.

          • Enough is Enough


            Ardern should make it very clear that his opinions are his own and they do not represent the views or policies of the Labour Party.

            He can then sulk in the corner or fuck off.

  6. GRUNTIE 6

    The vote in 2013 was not “very clear” – Andrew won by about 1 or 2 % over Grant

    • lprent 6.1

      I was referring to the process (binary competition is a pretty stupid way of looking at anything). I don’t expect anything in politics to go to a obvious coronation process. If there wasn’t disagreement about objectives and means, then why bother going through the process.

      All the politicians, membership, and affiliates got involved in the process. I thought that the positions people took made it clear what was being voted for and on. But I’d also thought that the people who didn’t make the cut were also willing to accept the result and just get on with the work required.

      However I strongly suspect that some were just biding their time for this narrow window of opportunity offered in the rules as a time to exert leverage. Since I am unlikely to find out until it passes into history, I’m personally just going to act as if this was the case.

      I find that making clear these kinds of presumptions about how things look helps the cause of transparency and provides little room of ambiguity for crawlers to scuttle under.

  7. I’ll revisit Labour again when the leadership is put up for members and affiliates after the election.

    Don’t bother. To me it looks like this is the final bell for Labour.

    Their economic and social management over the last 9 years has been appallingly short-term. It is storing problems for the future for our countries kids and grandkids.

    It’s their modus operandi – steal what they can now and don’t give a shit about the future or anybody else.

  8. Don't worry. Be happy 8

    “Self interested political stupidity” sums it up perfectly thank you LPrent. Could add in cynical, underhanded, yellow bellied, creeps, hypocrites and useful idiots but why gild the lily? So “The future is Green….or not at all.”

  9. tc 9

    Ffs however if ardern sharpens up the dull rhetoric and we see the govt get attacked on their obvious vulnerabilities it could be enough.

    Little never gave people an impression of a passionate advocate who will return nz to socialist values.

    Thats what the undecided need to see or theyll remain that way and not vote.

  10. Ad 10

    If i actually changed my vote, after the leadership change today I’m more inclined towards New Zealand First.

    I prefer their policies against foreign land ownership.

    A vote for New Zealand First ensures that my vote has the highest chance of affecting the outcome of the government.

    • r0b 10.1

      A vote for New Zealand First ensures that my vote has the highest chance of affecting the outcome of the government.

      The tiny problem is that you don’t know which way…

      • lprent 10.1.1

        Yeah. That is the problem with supporting NZ First. There is always that probability that they will prop up this defunct short-term thinking National government.

        It is the primary reason that I can’t think about supporting them.

      • Ad 10.1.2

        On polling day I’m not going to stay home and polish my purity ring forever.

        It has been most likely for several months now that it will be a National-NZFirst government, and the leadership change in Labour confirms that very clearly.

        So a vote for New Zealand First is the only vote that will alter the government, even though that will most highly likely be a National-led government.

        • RedLogix

          This can play out many ways:

          1. Jacinda pulls off a miracle and Labour start polling over 30% again. That would be very cool.

          2. Or it turns out her promotion was all about rescuing the old guard neo-lib agenda within the PLP and Labour continues to bleed.

          3. In which case a lot of votes will move to the Greens. Great in principle but it won’t get the left into govt.

          4. Some like yours Ad will move to NZ1. I can accept this … their economic agenda is compatible, but honestly I struggle with their reactionary social dimension.

          5. And a few will move over to TOP who are rapidly carving out a space as an anti-NZ1 Party. Socially very compatible with the left, but express their economic agenda in terms the left isn’t naturally comfortable with. Being fresh and non-tribal, TOP will also pull votes from National and NZ1. Given they’re already at 2% suddenly 5% doesn’t look so far away as it did yesterday.

          Interesting times. No wonder we get so many RW trolls over here … it’s boring on the right these days. 🙂

          • BM

            You guys certainly put on a good show. 😀

          • greywarshark

            This thoughtful opinion piece from Stephanie Rodgers on Radionz.

            The prevailing myth of Labour Party strategy since Helen Clark has been that we (for I can’t deny I am, indeed, a Labour Party Insider) must “look like a party ready to govern”. And this has translated to buying into the proper, grown-up, governmental ways of doing things – promising endless reviews or well-costed schemes.

            It doesn’t inspire people. It doesn’t feel like a real alternative. The proof of the pudding is in the polls.
            It did not start with Andrew Little and the problem is not confined to Andrew Little.

            I helped get him elected, and the leader I campaigned hard for was the man who said injustice stuck in his craw and he was not willing to stand by while the powerful oppressed the weak. We saw a glimpse of that man today as he announced his resignation. I think if we’d seen more of that man over the past two years, we wouldn’t be here now.

            It would be unparliamentary of me to mention Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn here, so I shall not, Mr Speaker. Instead look to the Greens as a counter example.

    • A vote for New Zealand First ensures that my vote has the highest chance of affecting the outcome of the government.

      You’d like that effect to be a more racist and socially-conservative version of the current government? Because those are the only things NZ First’s going to bring to National’s table.

      • Ad 10.2.1

        I think they are good people with a pretty economically left disposition.

        • garibaldi

          Ad I think PM is right on this one. Remember NZF is Winston’s and Winston is a conservative, a Muldoon through and through.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Your reckons? Is that the best you can do?

    • exkiwiforces 10.3

      I’m voting NZF, yes I know Winnie might to a deal with the devil (National) so I’ve just got suck it up and hope for the best.

  11. Brendan 11

    Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand is the only progressive party in Parliament that is worth supporting at the moment. Labour is full or Tory-lites. Just like British Labour in the pre-Corbyn era, and the Democratic Party in the US. People on the left want an actual left-wing party, and I’m not talking old-school Marxism, just a healthy dose of social democracy—more so then we are currently getting.

  12. Sanctuary 12

    My realisation the Ardern would be a better leader was when I was working at a large corporate a few months back. Ardern was invited to speak to a well paid, well healed and aspirational workforce on women and leadership. She packed the place out and was treated as a bit of a star. I realised then that she had a ‘cut through’ with the middle and power holding class that Little simple doesn’t have. She moves amongst them with ease, and she will appeal to the chattering media class whose incessant attacks need to be deflected immediately.

    Sometimes panic is the appropriate response to a set of inputs. At the moment, Labour needs to stop catastrophic bleeding. The Greens and NZ First are chomping down on them from either end and trend is little short of disasterous. The party is broke, out of ideas and now finally out of time. Choice is a luxury Labour no longer has. Getting Jacinda into the job now may be an expedient, but expedient is justified if the crisis is acute enough. There is no point in selecting or staying with a leader for a long term plan if the party might not have a future.

    • weka 12.1

      I also suspect that the MSM will cut Ardern some slack.

      • Tracey 12.1.1

        Did you notice in Littles PC Soper dominated and he and other men talked over women? Not in Adern’s. She called people by name, told them whose question she would take. He will now be gunning for her or drooling like an infatuated school boy

        • weka

          didn’t see Little’s PC, but I can imagine. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Smart woman who is also attractive, she’s had lots of practice at this stuff.

  13. Dorothy Bulling 13

    What we need is a modern version of Michael Joseph Savage, along with people like Girvan McMillan, Arnold Nordmeyer, Peter Fraser and those good people who set up the original welfare system to push out the greedy capiltalists. Funny that the news media have played a major hand in the last 20 years, rallying people against the right, but not realising that those few rich owners of our main stream media don’t care one jot for the employees. All they care about is more profit, and they are and always have been afraid of left wing politics, in case they are forced to pay higher wages.

  14. RedLogix 14

    Chris Trotter has arrived in the same place as well:

    Meanwhile, Labour’s increasingly disillusioned progressive supporters will listen to their party’s deafening silence on the heart-and-soul issues paraded front-and-centre by Metiria and the Greens – and draw the inescapable conclusion. That to keep faith with the legacy of Mickey Savage, Norman Kirk – and Rod Donald – there is only one way to cast their Party Vote.

    For the Greens.


    Contradictory creature that I am, I still cannot but wish Jacinda Adern the best. She may yet surprise us all.

    • weka 14.1

      The Greens still need a competent and viable Labour to be in govt. If this is just about the polling then I reckon Ardern might pull it off. If it’s about the backstabbing shit in Labour then I’m less hopeful, because the things Little has been struggling with are still there and still need a team to deal with.

      Next up is whether Labour can step up on the things that matter.

    • lprent 14.2

      I still cannot but wish Jacinda Adern the best. She may yet surprise us all.

      As do I. She happens to be my local MP so I will be voting for her. However I can’t cast a party vote for Labour as I view it as just supporting a parliamentary caucus structure that simply isn’t effective.

  15. Cinny 15

    Jeepers creepers, will be interesting to see how this plays out. Personally am rather gutted, it’s almost like media has pushed this by going on and on about poll results rather than policy.

    All the best to Jacinda and Kelvin, you are both politicians that I’ve admired for some time.

    Jacinda gives the best hugs, she’s a very sincere hard working, intelligent capable woman. Am yet to meet Kelvin, but I definitely rate him.

    Andrew, you are all shades of awesome, I truly admire you, your integrity is exceptional.

  16. SP 16

    As an early 30s long time National voter I’m stoked with this change. My vote will be going to Labour for the first time in a long time.

    I just haven’t been able to relate to any of the previous Labour leaders; they always seem grumpy/uptight and never highlight any positives (but perhaps this is because they have been in opposition).

    National have done bugger all for a while, but they’ve still been the best of a bad bunch. I think they may pay this time for their lack of action on housing/immigration/poverty. I’m hoping that Labour, NZ First & Greens can strike up a good balance, but Jacinda will need to stand up to Winston.

    I think Jacinda will go really well. Good on Labour! Looking forward to voting Labour this time round (and will make for great family debates around the dinner table for the next few months….I’ll be the odd one out).

    • Louis 16.1

      That’s not surprising since Jacinda has always been a firm favourite of the right wing that has often been her greatest cheer leaders. IMO that doesn’t inspire much confidence I’m afraid.

  17. That’s it, we’re fucked. How could anyone go out and ask voters to put such stupid, panic-driven incompetents in charge of the country?

    The only silver lining to this cloud is that the Labour caucus has revealed before the election what a terrible idea it would be to make them the government. Thanks for the three more years of National, fuckwits.

    • weka 17.1

      If this election was mainly about Labour I’d agree. Fortunately it’s not.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 17.1.1


      • Psycho Milt 17.1.2

        Labour is (or was, at least) more than half of the progressive vote. Canvassers and candidates for the Green Party now have to go out there and sell voters on helping the Greens form a governing partnership with a bunch of panicking, desperate, back-stabbing losers. If you’re seeing a potential Labour/Green government arising from that, I applaud your optimism but not your realism.

        • weka

          I was with you until I watch Ardern’s first press conference. We’ll see if she can sustain this, but that was a fucking good start.

          • Psycho Milt

            She did a great job of putting a brave face on the fact that she’s just taken leadership of a political team so desperate and incompetent that it would ditch its leader 2 months out from an election. I was impressed, but I also felt sorry for her.

    • billmurray 17.2


    • greg 17.3

      i see your point 9 years of fukwit rule and we have highest level suicide homelessness fuk Mexico is way down the list and that fukwit key and bill the plank the most boring man in existence have blown up a property to disenfranchise a generation so no iam not willing wait another 3 years these fukwits have and must go
      by vote or force either way they must get the boot .

  18. The plan seems obvious . Yes , Little was good in uniting the various factions in Labour. But it was a flawed situation from the start.

    Just think back to the sabotage when Trevor Mallard did the same in announcing ” I’d like to bring the moas back , just a small one, small enough that I can pat ”

    An obvious statement used in a derogatory term to Cunliffes attempts at implementing more social democracy in the traditional sense. And if anyone thinks the ABC’s had changed their tunes or suddenly became all conciliatory , they would be naive.

    You can almost bet it was someone in that ilk that leaked the UMR polls to the media, and the fact that it was so close to the election adds even more to their trademark mode of operating. They did it to Cunliffe DURING the election campaign.

    They cannot be trusted. And Labour needs to purge them.

    And that’s not that extraordinary. It happened before under Muldoon with Derek Quigley. Different circumstance , but things have gotten that bad with Labour that these neo liberals and their treachery must go.

    It will not be until that happens that there will be genuine unity.

    I will still vote Labour , but I am also very aware there are a few personnel changes needed to truly bring it back to its former glory.

    • If you don’t like Labour that much then why are you still voting for them?

      • WILD KATIPO 18.1.1

        Well , I saw Cunliffe then Little. I liked the both of them. Also , the way I see it , we still need Labour to form a base. If we don’t have that , we don’t get the Greens. Even with disappointed people who switch to the Greens.

        Also , I like Greens for the welfare policy’s, but I like Labour’s stance on raising the minimum wage – and potentially implementing the Living Wage. Its all got to start somewhere. And seeing as Labour seems to have dipped somewhat,… I guess strategically it would be best to place my vote Labours way. They both hit the issues that are important albeit in varying scope , and will work well together.

        I’m wary of the neo liberals in Labour , but believe with the Greens – and even NZ First , – some of that will have the edges knocked off. I’m not trying to be a purist here but a generalist. And my first concern is getting rid of National.

        As for NZ First , Peters , Davis and Jackson are mates. There’s another reason I believe it will be a Labour led govt with Greens / NZ First. Especially in light of Peters criticism of English regarding the Barclay scandal and the amount of texts English sent. Hardly going to endear them to each other in a coalition.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Also , the way I see it , we still need Labour to form a base.

          We actually don’t. In fact, IMO, the way things stand keeping Labour as ‘the base’ will prevent the necessary changes that we need.

          but I like Labour’s stance on raising the minimum wage – and potentially implementing the Living Wage.

          Greens Industrial Relations Policy

          The minimum wage should be increased to 66% of the average wage.

          Which is a fair approximation of the present Living Wage. Might be slightly higher even.

          I’m wary of the neo liberals in Labour , but believe with the Greens – and even NZ First , – some of that will have the edges knocked off.

          Some of the edges will be knocked off that way but I think it would be better to have the Greens as the major party of the Left.

  19. billmurray 19

    agree except I will wait and see what happens.
    Feel like I’ve been given a black eye.
    Vodka soothes.

  20. Sabine 20

    voting green.
    you don’t change the leader two month out of an election, fuck it. this is just a load of bullshit.
    seriously, does labour even have enough money to print new billboards?

    fuck it.

    i am one of those that live in a somewhat warm house, have enough food and i can afford a doctor if i need one.
    I pity the ones that are already out on the hard track of life cause it will get even shittier for them.

    fuck it.
    seriously fuck it.

  21. Craig H 21

    I’ve been involved in other organisations such as unions and sports clubs, and sometimes there’s an orderly transition between leaders with someone being groomed for the role, and sometimes leaders stand down at short notice for various reasons and the transition is much more abrupt. I personally don’t think Little was stabbed in the back, so much as realised how position was untenable, and he walked.

  22. Reality 22

    I feel very sorry for Andrew Little. What an honourable, unselfish man who gave his all. And he had integrity. I liked him because he stayed true to himself and did not try to be a show pony. Unfortunately in these times that is what shallow media outlets want to see (remember Key’s clownish antics the media fawned over).

    Andrew had good policies but the MSM pretty well ignored them. It was attack, attack, attack. While Bill English had the kid glove treatment. Bill English has no charisma but where is the criticism for his stodgy persona.

    I think Kelvin Davis will deal with the Gowers and Hoskings etc very firmly. Good. Andrew Little was sometimes perhaps too polite with them. And Jacinda will be Jacinda.

    Thank you Andrew.

    • Louis 22.1

      That’s a nice post Reality

    • Violet 22.2

      With you there. But take the media out of mix. Labour can’t control them. Only themselves. They should have supported Little right to the very end. Helped him deal with the media. This was the last straw and I hope they implode – along with my donation. I kept supporting them to get rid of the National government. Now I don’t want Labour anywhere near government.

  23. Adrian 23

    There’s some worried pissed off Green voters on here today because they can see 3-5 % going back where it came from.
    Ardern owned that press conference like no other politican has for almost ten years.
    National 40% Labour 32+, no MP, Dunne out, game on.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 23.1

      Not worried at all, if Labour can get its act together after nine long years.

    • weka 23.2

      “There’s some worried pissed off Green voters on here today because they can see 3-5 % going back where it came from.”

      Like OAB I’m not worried, because the Greens need a strong Labour in order to change the govt. Of course I will still be encouraging people to vote Green because that’s how we get a truly progressive change of govt. Agreed about Ardern owning that conference and game on.

    • There’s some worried pissed off Green voters on here today because they can see 3-5 % going back where it came from.

      Actually, that’s one thing I don’t see. The Greens have policies that people want whereas labour simply don’t.

      Changing leaders hasn’t changed that.

  24. Louis 24

    Yesterday I wondered why during a 1news interview with Bill English they were simultaneously showing Labour defaced hoardings with Andrew Little crossed out and a heart on Jacinda https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/watch-its-very-tight-bill-english-remains-coy-election-hopes-despite-labours-shocking-poll-result

  25. McFlock 25

    I think Labour ahould have stuck with little – maybe given him a few days off and then hit the ground running. But what’s done is done.

    Either way, I’d like to see a line drawn under this. My suspicion is that the resignation means Labour will be lucky to get 20%, so the leadership is a bit of a poisoned chalice. But new leadership and beefed up enthusiasm could equally get them back up to 30% territory – stranger things have happened.

    At least with two hits in quick succession, the leadership change has been quick. And Ardern has good track record on child poverty, so that might bode well.

  26. savenz 26

    The main casualty is for the entire left, that the MSM can focus on Labour leadership issues up until election, because overtime they mention Bill, National’s polls plummet.

    Keeping Bill and National policy out of air time is the gift that may give National a 4th term to destroy the country and environment and sell us off cheap.

    Also they will start picking off other rivals, hard to unstick Metiria now, but they will be after Winny in between daily articles about Labour and their leadership woes.

    Greens will get more votes after taking over some Labour voters, but they will not be effective unless they form a centre left coalition.

    If NZ First goes with National it’s the gift that keeps giving as the NZ First voter will punish them next election.

    It’s not just a clusterfuck for Labour, it’s a clusterfuck for NZ First and Greens.

  27. UncookedSelachimorpha 27

    My guess (which is not worth much) is that the net result of this Labour change will be:

    – Reduction in total “left”-block vote, unfortunately, as people abandon Labour.

    – Largest party vote Green in history of MMP, but derived from ex-Labour supporters moving over

  28. adam 28

    This is a coup d’etat, pure and simple.

    An authoritarian one at that.

    So much for democracy for the members of the labour party. This is quite an awful affair. But good news for us who have been saying all along labour is a liberal party representing the interests of the liberal class, by using the words of the suffering and pain to trick people.

    Trick me once, shame on me. Trick me twice, shame on you. Keep on trying to trick us – well for that we have the labour party.

    • Carolyn_nth 28.1

      Now we know where the leaks of the internal Labour Party polls were coming from!

      I’d go with manufactured, cynical coup, too.

      Somehow Little was not being given the PR advice to get much media coverage lately.

    • srylands 28.2

      You got it the wrong way round. The saying is ‘Trick me once, shame on you; trick me twice, shame on me’

  29. outofbed 29

    Kelvin Davis WTF, the guy that took a seat away from the left last time around
    What are these guys on.
    Three elections!! FFS . Have they learnt nothing?
    Everybody just vote Green and get rid of these useless self entitled fools.

  30. MoreHelenThanRuth 30

    This is going to back fire. There are a couple of well-known skeletons lurking. This is political cunning at its most filthy; literally three heads are going to role now instead of just one. Cui bono…?

  31. greywarshark 31

    The traffic count must have been high today lprent. The site seems really robust.

  32. peterlepaysan 32

    The LEC’s that keep returning those arrogant egotistical self serving LP caucus members
    need to ask themselves some serious questions. If all the electorate party support staff withdrew their services that could focus minds wonderfully.

    Loyalty to the party is not necessarily the same as as loyalty to the member.
    In fact they can be in direct conflict.

    The LP caucus is as disgusting as the NP caucus.

    They both treat the electorate with contempt.

    • exkiwiforces 32.1

      You probably need to add the regional and the party hq staff as well as various factions that the self serving ice cream lickers have. I think a massive purge has to be done and get the party back to its true beliefs, be values base and understand what it objectives are if it wants a future. For some of the factions might have to take hit for the team as some these self serving ice cream lickers have got ther via the quota system and factional blocks. You don’t see a NZ sporting teams having to base it’s selection on quota and factional blocks, they get the best to win at any cost and the same should for Labour.

      • greywarshark 32.1.1

        Golly exkiwiforces
        In politics the goal isn’t clearly focussed. In war and sport, you go for something that is presented as straightforward and may be just a single task.

        If trying to get back to ‘true beliefs’ the heat can rise with over-indulgence in naming and shaming then you end up in bloodbaths or witch burning (that was to purge them so they could get into heaven – gave them a short burst of hell instead of the prophesied eternal damnation or something.)

        Let’s just aim for a workable system where people stick to the reasonable goals, commit themselves to giving the people the results they want, and with their help and advice and working groups perhaps, and we will be closer to Gods Own again.

        • exkiwiforces

          Sorry for being quite blunt, but that’s me I called a spade a spade and a bloody shovel a shovel.

          Some of these self serving ice cream lickers are forgetting the real reason why they were elected to the beehive in the first place. The primary objective of the opposition is to make the government of the day accountable for their actions and their secondary objective is to provide good sound policy to counter whatever crap policy the other side comes up with, while at same time planning to win the election around good sound policy, everyone work together as strong team = strong senior leadership group = strong a Party fit for government.

          This bunch of self serving ice cream lickers are putting them first instead of wants good for the Country and the Party. Like the last two elections Labour had it in the bag with Goff and the other bloke (sorry can’t remember the bloke’s name). We lost the last election by these self serving ice cream lickers who put themselves first instead of what’s for the Country and the Party.
          The self serving ice cream lickers need to realize opinion polls are like assholes everyone got one.

          If the Labour keeps infighting weather its the various factions/ branches etc over XYZ then Mrs & Mr Joe Bloggs aren’t going to vote Labour because Labour have forgetting its primary and secondary objectives. The self serving ice cream lickers and their various factions/ branches need to realize they are problem not Mrs & Mr Joe Bloggs because they think Mrs & Mr Joe Bloggs are stupid for not voting for them. When the self serving ice cream lickers and their various factions/ branches understand that they will be the next government, but their self interest will get the better of them until someone has the balls/ fanny to stand up to them and kick them were it hurts.

          Your last two points quite valid as well. We could go either for my kinetic approach or yours a non kinetic approach, but something needs to be done before its to late.

          • greywarshark

            Yes exkiwiforces
            I guess you have served in some capacity – have forgotten if you have specified. But you may be feeling that you can’t see what you have been fighting for in our society. This is the feeling that I get when I think of my dead father buried in France with the rest of his crew. What was he expecting, what did he think he was fighting for?

            He would have wanted more, he said so in the few letters that are all I have of him along with some photos, his medals and buttons. I owe it to him to get off my butt and do more, so am thinking and acting for community based stuff and to get pollies who aren’t like strutting peacocks with their high-pitched screams.

            • exkiwiforces

              Yes, I’ve done my bit mainly in Peacekeeping in warlike conditions (which I always wanted to do, but its ****ed me up) and a wee bit in the Middle East in warlike and non warlike conditions.

              Both sides of the family tree are Trade unionist, Methodist lay preachers, Convicts (dad’s side), Red coats (both sides)/ Military (going back to days of Longbow) either enlisted or officers and some been have Head of Departments (HOD) of their technical field, SME owners usual under a co-op, been MP’s or have stood for public office, farmers, coal miners/ coal mine owners a co-op model which was very successful and we could still mining coal if had it our way (but’s another story), bushies, railway workers and technical trades, Most have played sport to almost to the highest level, we are Communists, Socialist’s, support the Labour movement in ways than one, had a share in the old Argus newspaper and probably the old Standard as well, and last of all we sing the Internationale was a right of passage.

              As my late grandmother said “We must work for a common goal for the good of the country and we must stand united against those that do evil towards the working class and we don’t then we become slaves in our country”

              PS, We even help burn down the White House in the war of 1812.

              • greywarshark

                A great background exkiwiforces. Makes you proud to come from such an upstanding family.

                Your grandmother’s thought reminds me of Margaret Thorn and her husband. Great NZ activists who came from Britain. Ever read about her? Admirable like your family.

                She wrote with two others: Stick Out, Keep Left (Auckland [N.Z.], Auckland University Press ; Bridget Williams Books, 1997).
                Thorn, Margaret, Elsie Locke, and Jacqueline Matthews.

                Margaret and politics for women.

                Actually somewhere along the line perhaps people with wonderful histories like this might like to put it into words to register the great efforts made. But just watch out for interest from the GCSB. Elsie Locke who was a co-author with Margaret in their political story, had them sticking over her and her family like burrs on sheep.

                • exkiwiforces

                  Yeah its bloody great Family History and we slowly uncovering more especially since we have made contact with our Canadian cousins (my mums side) and there it get real interesting there..

                  On the second to last visit or it may have been the third to last visit, I ask some questions in regards to Angus McLagan and the Locke Family? The reply form my late grandmother was a foul mouth tirade and this is a person who would never speak ill of anyone apart from these two. God only know what hear bothers Bill and Len would’ve said?

                  My late great grandfather was the No2 in the local Communist party and No1 in the local UMW. My great grandfather was very astute and knew a thing about coalmining in more ways than most people at the time as he learnt a lot from his late father in-law in Canada http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/sherman_frank_henry_13E.html and in the valleys of southern Wales.

                  What happen was my great grandfather believe is improve safety standards, bring new ways of bring out the coal which would increase the productivity and lead to better wages for the workers etc. As he was slowly makings gains in the Blackball mine for the local workers while acting behalf of the Buller miners with the help of Harry Holland MP in mine workers compo case (which he won) and far reaching affects there after. I have funny feeling his win enable a number of workers acts to passed in law by the first Labour government.

                  The more militant miners were undermining the gains in which great grandfather won at Blackball while he was up in Westport fighting the 3 or 4 compo cases, he believed in slowly- slowly catch the monkey not the crash and bash of the hardliners. Concerns were start to mount about the undermining of the hardliners as he knew from correspondence from Canada and the UK that economic outlook was bad and heading our way soon. At his last (not sure) UMW meeting things came to a head the miners were on strike and wanted to bring in a rationing scheme, which he knew from Canada which cause more problems than what its worth and the end the hardliners got way, so he put in his resignation from the UMW in full as he had by now a gutful. Being a the astute man he was and though the correspondence from the family overseas Co-op mining seem the way to go for workers freedom etc. So he started planning to work at leasing a part of the mine with the idea to buy it out at which he did for a bargain before the up turn in the coal price. Not soon after resigning from UMW, McLagan’s adultly came to surface involving the local young female secretary from the Communist Party. The then NZ Communist Party Constitution at the time was a very puritan and one of those rules was never to commit adultly etc. My great grandparents at the meeting and stood up to denounce McLagan saying he should be booted out of the party because of his adultly, then the rumours started to fly around that this was a power grab etc by the Balderstones as the Co-Op they were about to start (Blackball Creek Coal Company (BCCC), also known as Balderstone & Party) was going to be employed by people loyal to the Balderstones. As a result of the rumors things got very nasty as the McLagan loyalists along with the Locke’s with 3/4 quarters of the town against the Balderstone family and co, but got a lot of support from other miners in the area especially the Dobson Miners as my greatfather along with other members of the family were the lead responders in the recuse (1923?) mine explosion and the then Labour Party. He was able to sue the Communist Party for libel which he won, which I think put the Communists on back foot from there onwards, but damage had been done on a personal level and even now those with surname Balderstone on the coast are still called scabs because of the bullshit that was spread around by the Locke and co.

                  When Harry Holland passed away, my great grandfather was offer Harry’s seat, but turned if down for a number of reasons.
                  The Coal mine becomes one the most successful mines in NZ for the way it was run, safety wise, a lower cost of ton of coal it achieve, bringing new technology which leaded to more safety improvements, a even lower cost per ton of coal, and 50/50 split in profits as 50% went into the mine and other 50% split even within the work force. During the War the mine was working between a 4 to 5 (8 to 12hrs) times a week one shift depending the coal quota for that week and if the workers did in 4 day or 3 day shift they got payed the as if it was a 5 day shift. Just about everyone from the senior leadership group of the Labour Party since 1920/1930’s visited the family and it came to stop when Helen Clarke lost the 2008 election. But the real cherry on the top for me was wining the court case for miners compo up in the Buller, with no Law degree, only armed with the then mines act. My lasting memory was when I on the coast at the Greymouth RSA for a few drinks was when a old timer ask who was I? I’m in Greymouth for my grandmothers 80th, he ask me her name was Rosa Beaurepire, nee Balderstone and the old man smile with a tear in his eye and said your great grandfather was the greatest trade unionist/ coal miner/ coal mine owner this country has ever had and if wasn’t the those McLagan and his travellers (Lockes) the real story will never be told. I was pissed as newt at closing time with all the old stories and had to give directions to Naghare.

                  Sorry for the long post and I have cut a few things out or else it would been a War and Peace Epic.

                  A couple of books to read:

                  The Noble Cause “The Story of The United Mine Workers of America in Western Canada by the UMWA District 18.

                  Coal Flat by Noel Pearson, this is based on the Balderstone Family and they looked after him when his Homosexuality become known and if for my great grandparents I think his teaching would’ve end a lot sooner as they manage to get a transfer for him to Auckland before the lynch mob got to him.

                  As for the Spooks such as GCSB and ASIO etc. For those who have serve in the Forces we have never had a problem with our Security Clearance’s even those who were HOD’s or even on the F-16 projects (the 1st and the 2nd one), Rigel, Kahu and other big RNZAF projects etc.

  33. greg 33

    after that press conference Jacinda is one smooth operator
    bill the plank is in trouble

  34. Philj 34

    I’m voting for Dirty Politics.So are you. Where is the Trump vote going?

    • Sable 34.1

      Trump was a vote against the establishment. Ironic I know but then look at what the Dems stood for (in my opinion rampant neo liberalism) and its not hard to see why. I suspect the disillusioned on the left and right will move to NZ First or maybe just stay home.

  35. Sable 35

    Sensible argument. I have had doubts about Labour for a lot longer myself but for much the same reasons. That said I’m disappointed by the Greens lack of direction of late so I’m moving on to NZ First. I do not think the left such as it is can win this election and NZ First has been very good at mitigating the worst of Nationals policies when given a chance. In particular the TPPA which they are strongly and rightly opposed to.

  36. Mickomarvel 36

    Yet, the party has received a huge burst of both financial and volunteer support. Sorry, purists, but he wasn’t electable and she very well may be. She’s made an impressive start.
    AL is a decent man and can be a valued member of the team, but the first duty of a leader is to provide the inspiration that wins elections.
    What the left needs right now is to concentrate on defeating the nats. Hissy fits and infighting will detract from this effort and simply lead to another 3 years of misrule.

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