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Open mike 01/03/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:05 am, March 1st, 2014 - 204 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

204 comments on “Open mike 01/03/2014 ”

  1. Aww 1

    Just when I’d lost all faith in the HRRT they surprise me with a good call:


    Well done! And let’s hope creeps like Aaron Montgomery learn that sexual harrassment of workers in any setting will not be tollerated in NZ.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.1

      That scum also needs to be banned from being a manager ever again because we can pretty much guarantee that he will abuse others under him.

    • bad12 1.2

      Do you tho see anything amiss in this story, down the bottom of the page is ”the business is now under new ownership”,

      i doubt this worker as the story says will anytime soon ”get” the 25 grand the tribunal ordered the ”former” owner to pay,

      This is what is wrong with Tribunal Law right across the board, the woman involved having been awarded the damages will now be left to Her own devices to chase the ”former owner” for these monies,

      The business, you bet it was controlled by a LTD company will have changed hands ”on paper”, but, who really knows or believes that it actually has,

      The ”former owner” if pressed by the plaintiff through legal action She will have to instigate will just as likely declare Himself impoverished and therefor bankrupt, having if what i allude to occurs already arranged his financial situation to reflect this,

      The Court if given ”proof” of such a dire financial situation then have no option but to order the $25,000 be paid to the plaintiff at as little as 10 dollars a week,

      This is how small business operators have been treating the Employment Relations Authority orders for compensation for their victims and i would be willing to bet the one discussed here will be treated no differently…

      • Aww 1.2.1

        Sadly I know this ^^to be true, however the ruling is far better than what the HRRT came up with when a gay minister was discriminated against – basically they said that was ok because it was a church which implies freedom of religion trumps human rights law (what if this were a torture case and not discrimination?).

        I’m also aware of a sexual abuse case involving a psychologist where the victim bravely took the case to the HRRT herself after finding she was no eligible for legal aid. The HRRT basically overturned the finding of the Health and Disabilities Commissioner which found the psychologist was guilty of breaching the code by exploiting a patient sexually.

        Consequently I the HRRT is very suspect to my mind. I hope she is resourceful enough to get a court order of his bank account.

      • Aww 1.2.2

        Sadly I know this ^^to be true, however the ruling is far better than what the HRRT came up with when a gay minister was discriminated against – basically they said that was ok because it was a church which implies freedom of religion trumps human rights law (what if this were a torture case and not discrimination?).

        I’m also aware of a sexual abuse case involving a psychologist where the victim bravely took the case to the HRRT herself after finding she was no eligible for legal aid. The HRRT basically overturned the finding of the Health and Disabilities Commissioner which found the psychologist was guilty of breaching the code by exploiting a patient sexually.

        Consequently I the HRRT is very suspect to my mind. I hope she is resourceful enough to get a court order of his bank account.

  2. fascinating how our (clearly leftwing-biased) corporate/access-media are all clustered around..

    ..blowing on that little spark/ember that is act…

    ..trying to bring it back to life..

    ..(..’plucky wee party..!’..they all sobbed in unison..)

    phillip ure..

    • act wants life-sentences for third-strike burglars..


      ..’conservation is best left to private-owners..’

      …colin craig ‘is a decent chap’..who he would be happy to coalition with..

      ..and wants to roll back the/any restrictions on tobacco..

      ..and he confirmed that what he believed..would not necessarily indicate how he would vote..when push came to shove..(!)

      ..what a totally unimpressive person..

      ..that new act-leader is..

      …phillip ure..

      • Paul 2.1.1

        The Herald online’s top story is all about ACT’s crime policy.
        The Herald it’s crime on its front page a lot.
        The owners of the Herald want the ACT party to thrive.
        Biased corrupt media.

      • cricklewood 2.1.2

        Thats bullshit Phill, it 3 years no parole for the third offence… I dont agree with it but you could at least be truthful…

        • phillip ure

          i was reporting on the nation interview..

          ..where he was asked that question..

          ..watch the replay 2morrow..or online after that..

          ..the man is a fucken buffoon..

          ..he almost makes chem-trails-col look good…

          ..and channeling rodney hyde/lock -em-up garrett….?

          ..that’s all he’s got..?

          ..and an actite/randite are you..?

          ..(you do know that ayn rand..despite calling people who take welfare..leeches’..who should get nothing..took welfare herself for decades..under/using her husbands’ name..did you know that..?..about yr heroine..?..)

          ..and careful..!

          ..zoos like to hunt down and capture endangered/rare-species..

          ..like you..

          ..(keep out of the bush..eh..?..stay safe in epsom cafes..!..)

          ..you/act are totally on the wrong side of history..

          ..enjoy yr ride..eh..?..

          ..act campaign-poster:

          ..brown burglar in balaclava..?..shaven haired whyte as masked-avenger..?

          ..you are all clowns..

          ..you may as well go full-cartoon..

          ..phillip ure..

          • bad12

            On the Pump again i see Phillip…

          • cricklewood

            Wtf? As noted im not in agreement with the policy. At all. I’d just prefer you didn’t bullshit. You’re sounding like the ying to Srylands Yang tonight…

  3. bad12 3

    Slippery the Prime Minister’s National Government intends to play fast and loose with the Parliament by first declaring that the Labour Party supported Private Members Bill from Labour’s Sue Maroney to extend paid parental leave is again on the agenda to have the Finance Ministers right of veto stamp it out even tho it is likely to pass into law supported by a majority of the House,

    This veto as yet has never been used to ‘kill’ a whole piece of Legislation, having though been used numerous times in the past to veto ‘parts’ of different pieces of Legislation,

    With National planning on raising the number of weeks of Paid Parental Leave in its next Budget the veto is obviously not being used as it should for reasons of financial imperative, it is simply politics which prompts National to use underhand tactics to scuttle the payment of 24 weeks of paid parental leave and i will assume here that English in using the veto of the Minister of Finance here will use the occassion to trumpet National’s grand fiscal management of the Governments accounts,

    Labour i believe need Rain bigtime on Bills little parade, steal the political limelight from National with 2 simple moves, the first???,steal a Winston Peters idea and while English trumpets to the House the vetoing of the Paid Parental Leave Bill have all the Labour members hold up a sign, ala Winston’s NO sign used by Him repeatedly to negate National’s attacks on Him prior to the 2008 election,

    Not simply a NO though, while English extols His management of the economy as he vetoes this legislation Labour MP’s need each be armed with a sign which simply states Government Gross Debt=82 Billion Dollars,

    Guess what is going to fill the news reports the next day, English’s face or a pic of the Labour Benches all showing signs proclaiming National’s 80+ billion dollars of debt,

    The second point at which Labour can rip the political initiative from Nationals grasp on this issue is at the point of English having actually announced to the House the veto, all the Labour MP’s should simply walk out of the debating chamber…

    • karol 3.1

      Excellent idea. The government know the PPL Bill is quite popular, hence their need to do a Bill of their own if they plan to veto Moroney’s Bill – all political maneuvering.

    • greywarbler 3.2

      Lefties could start a Pussy Riot type group (wouldn’t have to be all women) and they would draw attention to issues they felt strongly about. Have some bare flesh showing, round the chest area – applies to men and women.. The news couldn’t afford to ignore them, it’s the sort of thing the media make their main interest.

      Something has to be done that entertains and informs, facts and responsibility and vision for a better future can’t resonate with so many people who have got the pigsty dug up to their satisfaction and are getting on with a nice wallow. Now they want something to heehaw and oink at.

    • kenny 3.3


  4. jepenseque 4

    Labour protesting debt would be interesting given they have resisted most spending reductions and have proposed many expensive proposals of their own. The growth in debt has been a neccesary evil of surviving the gfc. Cullen did well to get it to where it was however. By the way business confidence is at a 20 year high so things are looking up 🙂 have a good Saturday all. Cheers

    • bad12 4.1

      The only people that truly believe that things are ”looking up” are ‘wing-nuts’ obviously having become positionally static while ”looking up” their own rectal cavities,

      The Rock Bottom economy: 82 Billion+ of Gross Government Debt, Government Deficit of 1.79 Billion dollars for this year, –minus $300 million+ dollars of tax collected from Business again this year as the gutting of employment from the IRD has left the payment of business taxation up to the ”personal responsibility” of the businesses concerned…

      • Herodotus 4.1.1

        The economy is far more than the performance of the govt in isolation.
        Having an economy that has survived based on cows, building leaky homes and immigration is not one that has a healthily long term future. Especially as dairy within nz will have some challenges when new overseas production from South America and the likes comes on line.
        And with much debate now being centred on our duopoly of supermarkets ( trade ables and importing low inflation )we are starting to see that low inflation has some long term adverse consequences.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.2

      Actually, things are looking like they’re about to collapse house of cards like.

      We’ve been following business confidence for the last thirty years and all we’ve got is more poverty for the many and a few people getting immeasurably richer.

      • Zorr 4.2.1

        “Business confidence” necessitates measuring the opinions of the richest of us on how they are feeling about whether or not they’re going to get any richer…

        Yeah, this is a useful fucking measure…

        • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

          +1 Zorr

        • Draco T Bastard


          The purpose and direction of our economy has been determined by the richest 1%. No wonder it doesn’t work for the rest of us.

  5. bad12 5

    Things you might want to think about while attending to your personal ‘throne’ on this fine Saturday morning,

    Thomas Crapper is said to have invented the modern flush toilet, Thomas a plumber by profession held at least six patents for various designs of the flushing bog,

    In a ‘your never to old to learn moment’ this stunning piece of revelation shows us where the phrase ”taking a crap” came from, good old Thomas having lent His surname to the English language along with His inventiveness to providing a novel means of us all being able to disregard the destination of our bodily wastes with a simple ‘flush’,

    Even ‘taking a crap’ tho isn’t without its controversies, and, there is a body of opinion out there that disputes Crapper’s claims of invention,

    i tho, am having none of that,’taking a Smith or Jones’ in the morning just doesn’t resonate in my mind enough to have Crapper ‘flushed’ from His throne,

    Anyone accusing me of being ‘full of s–t’ over this sensitive issue is obviously wrong, i have been this morning and definitely flushed…

    • I read the other day that 3 poo’s a day is healthy – seems bit high to me. We’ve got 2 composting toilets so no flushing – I wonder if they can be called ‘crappers’.

      • greywarbler 5.1.1

        marty mars
        Does someone over your way make composting toilets. Or did you build them from book instructions. Do you have to have them on a slope for easy access to the airless chamber for emptying? A bit about your experience with them would be good if you have the time. Just a bit, but we should be thinking about these. We are going to be short of water in future I’m sure.
        Or floods will wash sewer pipes away, and we will be too poor to keep renewing. And these I understand are better than septic tanks environmentally.

        • marty mars

          There are lots of different ones in the bay. We inherited the one we have. It is very basic with a transfer system that means emptying the bucket into the larger bin quite often, it’s better if the chamber is bigger and below the ‘entry’ point. We use sawdust. Leave it for a year. Add it to a compost area for another then good to go – although I don’t use it around food crops – but that’s just me 🙂 I hope someone who knows about the subject hops in and adds their expertise.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Leave it for a year. Add it to a compost area for another then good to go – although I don’t use it around food crops – but that’s just me

            I don’t know specifically but I suspect after that long as compost it would be safe for use on food crops. Ring up a university and ask them.

            • weka

              Or read Joe Jenkins’ work. He pioneered bucket systems, and has done alot of research on pathogens and what is needed to make toilet compost safe (you want time AND heat in the composts, and his system is designed for that). Some people use on food crops, others just on shrubs and trees, mostly this seems to be about design and confidence.


              There is also a free copy of older editions of Jenkins’ ‘Humanure Handbook’ online.

              As well as Joe Jenkins, try the group that set up after the Chch quakes. http://www.composttoilets.co.nz/index.php/about-us/

              The great thing about these and the Jenkins’ systems is that most people can set them up without much expense.

              Puting human faeces in potable water and then pumping into the environment is kind of weird when you think about it.

          • freedom


            These are ‘living what you teach’ workshops and you will not walk away empty headed 🙂

            I mention it because there are two working composting toilets on the property and
            you can learn about them hands on so to speak.

      • bad12 5.1.2

        Considering the many uses of our human waste discharges you would have to conclude that how we remove them from our personal lives is indeed a ‘waste’,

        Urea of course has been for years a source of fertilizer for land based industry and like it’s name suggest Urine is full of the stuff,

        The uses of what Crapper allows us to flush away as a more solid waste are many and varied, you have to wonder just how much electricity could be generated from the total of the solid wastes excreted by the population of the larger cities we mostly inhabit,

        In some places in this country there was a time, between the simple long drops, and, the installation of the flush toilet where towns had Horse and Cart collections for at least solid waste excrement,

        Nowday’s we simply flush and forget, perhaps it’s time for the invention of a smart toilet where solid waste is collected in a detachable cassette able to be put out just as we do our other recyclables for collection,

        Surely the mass of such waste turned into a salable end use product would make such a collection a cost effective means of waste disposal with the perhaps of some major savings in water usage in the process…

        • marty mars

          Could be a good job for ex-politicians.

        • joe90

          From the ‘we don’t know how lucky we are’ folder….


          • bad12

            joe90, indeed!!! a long read but equally as fascinating as Draco’s comment below, in our little burst of potty talk today we certainly have some esteemed company as the story outlines…

        • Draco T Bastard

          The sewage system in Auckland turns the matter into bricks which are then put into an old quarry on an island in the Manukau Harbour. These bricks could easily and safely be used for fertiliser.

          • bad12

            Lolz Draco, Fascinating, gives new meaning to that old saying ‘shitting bricks’…

        • cricklewood

          You previously been able to buy processed product as compost for next to nothing. There were a few scares around hep and there can be a fair amount of rubbish in it whuch has been macerated into small enough pieces to get through incidentally you tend to get inundated with tomato seedlings as the human body and the process at the sewage works doesn’t destroy them and they concentrate in the solids…

          • greywarbler

            Mmmm tomato – the love apple. Pumpkins grow well in home compost as I can testify.

    • Visubversaviper 5.2

      Sir John Harington actually invented the first one. Only two were made and it was an ecological disaster, flushed straight to the street.
      The Romans had flushing toilets 2000 years previously, the waste water from the public baths served public loos which also had hand washing facilities. This was all lost in the Christianist excesses of the Dark Ages and only re-discoverred in the mid 19th Centuary when the Victorians decided that cleanliness was next to godliness.

      • bad12 5.2.1

        ”Snapping a crooked nugget” into the mouth of your Sir John Harrington might have some of us willing to consider opting for the Harrington version of events,

        It appears that we can detect some class distinctions even in how the various names of our instruments of ablution have been applied to the English language,

        Thomas Crapper,a humble plumber, gave us ‘the crapper’ and ‘taking a crap’ while it is easy to connect Sir John with ‘taking a trip to the John’ also a well used English phrase…

    • kenny 5.3


      • bad12 5.3.1

        Some i can be assured will accuse me of talking a lot of ‘it’ this morning…

    • Zorr 5.4


      So yeah, stupid stuff like this it’s best to check… because often if it’s too stupid to be true, then it’s most likely to be the case…


      One of the best things I have seen on toilets….

      • bad12 5.4.1

        Lolz, for every ‘fact’ there appears to be another set that provide debate, poor old Sir John doesn’t even rate a mention while Thomas Crapper, inventor or fraud aside, certainly gets a mention from the Brits in Joe90’s comment of 1.37pm above via the link provided…

        • greywarbler

          From wikipedia –
          Around this time, [1591] Harington also devised Britain’s first flushing toilet – called the Ajax (i.e. a “jakes”; jakes being an old slang word for toilet) – It was installed at his manor in Kelston….
          Sir John Harington (also spelled Harrington) (4 August 1561 – 20 November 1612), of Kelston, was a courtier, author and master of art,…

          The forerunner to the modern flush toilet had a flush valve to let water out of the tank, and a wash-down design to empty the bowl.[4]

          Thomas Crapper was born in 1837. He came from a working family which was poor. When 11 he is said to have walked from his home in Yorkshire to London seeking work. (A starting age at that time could be between 7-8 years old.) The Chartists were protesting at the time, working class people who held a monster demonstration in an area where bullet proof shutters went up on the windows, and lines of police were overwhelmed by the throng. (Deja vu all over again!)
          He started his own business in 1861 which was a boom year as London had just got its first two main sewers, later to extend to a network of 83 miles. Crapper’s main triumph was devising a way of ensuring that water was not left flushing 24 hours and wasting the precious water supply.

          The really great man of British sewers for better hygiene planning was –
          Sir Joseph William Bazalgette, CB (28 March 1819 – 15 March 1891) was a 19th-century English civil engineer.
          As chief engineer of London’s Metropolitan Board of Works his major achievement was the creation (in response to the “Great Stink” of 1858) of a sewer network for central London which was instrumental in relieving the city from cholera epidemics, while beginning the cleansing of the River Thames.

          And that’s all I have to say about loos at the moment. I found the book on Crapper and bought it, learned about the design of what I take for granted. Then I saw something on tv about Bazalgette’s great work which was beset by criticism and doubt, enough to make him lose his hair.

          • bad12

            i have taken an immediate and pathological dislike of Bazalgette, what a stupid name to have associated with a toilet, can you imagine telling everyone your taking five to let rip a Baza,

            S’pose the Aussies could get quite used to it tho, just going to drop a Baza Maaaatee would be the call,

            Much prefer Crapper and Sir John, its much easier to coin a narrative round those two even if i do play a little fast and loose with the facts,

            i s’pose Bazalgette being the designer of the mains sewers is somewhat redeemed tho as we could include Him in, ”i’m off to the John to send a Crap down the Baza”…

            • greywarbler

              It seems to me that Bazalgette adds a touch of je ne sais pas ce que. In your coarse Australian idiom it seems that you are referring to Bazza of Barry Humphries fame. However I would think that you might be too young to have read these scurrilous tales of technicolour yawns and other decadent piffle.

              I thought you would have mentioned khazi. This should not be overlooked in this scholarly dissertation on long-drops.

              The urban dictionary makes a light-hearted? jest –
              A toilet (usage chiefly British)
              Richard sat on the khazi and launched a mersey trout
              by Jules the King January 09, 2004

              the free dictionary says –
              khazi (ˈkɑːzɪ)
              n 1. a lavatory; toilet
              [C19: from casa, case a brothel, from Italian casa a house; modern spelling probably influenced by khaki]

              and wikipedia gives too much information:

  6. Saarbo 6

    TV3’s The Nation left the “al” off the end of it. The panel is Pagani, Ralston and Jordan Williams…3 right Wingers. Cunliffe on now.

    • Saarbo 6.1

      Cunliffe on fire on The Nation…outstanding.

      Paddy’s taking a beating….Cunliffe getting a bit of Utu.

      • Hami Shearlie 6.1.1

        I enjoyed it immensely too Saarbo – loved the boyish grin and twinkle in David’s eye as he knew he had Gower just where he wanted him this time! David sure looks young and fresh beside tired old dead-eyed John too!! The David and Matt Combo is very promising indeed!!

        • Jim Nald

          Lovely head full of hair 🙂

          Even more lovely to hear David speaking! Yes, David, speak to those of us who are listening, to those of us who want to listen!!

          • Jim Nald

            btw, farking great to see and hear DC enjoying the interview !

            • Ergo Robertina

              He was enjoying himself, and I think that is a key point. Often it seems it is the National and Green MPs who look like they actually enjoy what they do, whereas Labour MPs look strained/irritated/conflicted/bored.

    • greywarbler 6.2

      Saarbo How did Cunliffe sound and look?

      • Saarbo 6.2.1


        DC just answered the questions honestly and looked very comfortable batting against paddy. definitely has the better of Gower.

        I think it plays again tomorrow at 10am.

        An interesting piece from Farrar suggesting that DC needs to sell his BCG business credentials more (he didn’t say it like that but that was the gist of it), I actually agree with Farrar on this one. Cunliffe has enormous strengths in the business area, far better than John Key’s money trading experience…its a huge opportunity for labour I think.

        • Ant

          I don’t know how convincing playing up business credentials is in the larger scheme of things. Tories always play up that they are willing to be convinced by ‘business minded Labour’, but it’s disingenuous, they still vote blue every single time.

        • karol

          Gower was a pain in the butt. Just awful to watch. how ever did he get to be a TV journalist? He does the whole horse race, personality politics angle and doesn’t focus on the important things. Definitely an infotainment journalist with a big ego.

          Cunliffe kept him in check and managed to get in some lines about the main values of his Labour Party, in spite of Gower. And, yes, he was looking alive, energetic, smiling and relaxed.

          • karol

            And what a hatchet job from Gower on 3 News tonight – cutting out all Cunliffe’s comments about being for the less well off and not pulling the ladder up after him. And focusing on Cunliffe being rich….. totally skewed.

            Except, the techies ran the wrong clip to start with, somewhat weakening the impact of Gower’s hatchetness.

            • mickysavage

              Yep …

              I thought Gower was owned on the interview.

              • karol

                And that maybe is partly why Gower then did a nasty skewed hatchet job on Cunliffe later on 3 News.

                • mickysavage

                  Yep. If there was a youtube access to the videos then we could construct a good blogpost analysis of what happened. But with the corporates they control the release of the video so the ability of analysing and commenting on the video is more difficult.

                  • Bill

                    Killing the attack line and showing Cunliffe to possess humility isn’t such a hatchet job, is it?

                    • karol

                      Cunliffe’s main point in many parts of the interview was about Labour supporting people on low incomes, and the way Key disparaged the Salvation Army report. Gower made it all about Cunliffe’s money & the allegation that Cunliffe was trying to hide that fact from the public – calling it hypocrisy to attack Key for being rich. All totally skewed to make Cunliffe look bad. Like Gower forced the back down out of Cunliffe, rather than Cunliffe saying it was a bad move.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So why is Gower still given access to the Labour Leader.

                    • Ergo Robertina

                      Bill – agreed, it was not a hatchet job and was actually a relatively good informative interview. Combative in a fun sort of way. A friend who is not particularly a Cunliffe fan commented that he seemed warm and likeable on the Paul Henry show the other night. And the attack lines are repetitive and easy enough to counter. At least Paddy’s not going after a real weak spot, the super age rise, but actually allowing Labour to present it as responsible fiscal management.

                    • felix

                      “So why is Gower still given access to the Labour Leader.”

                      Tat’s what I want to know too CV.

              • Ant

                Totally owned, but Gower never lets reality get in the way of the story he wants to tell when he can edit edit edit!

        • greywarbler

          Thanks Saarbo. I haven’t got tv at present – have to get round to getting digitalised. I guess I have felt like I was being tested for prostrate for so long by the tv execs and advertising junkies I have lost keenness.

          So good to hear the positive reports, twinkle in the eye stuff is what we want and putting down those NACT running dogs. Plus a change down to the serious and if Cunliffe has got cred then – if you’ve got it, flaunt it.

    • Paul 6.3

      Fair and balanced. NZ’s corporate news.
      Full of people prepared to sell their country to the highest bidder.
      Ralston what a disgrace

    • (i’ve done a review of ‘the nation’..)

      review:..the nation:..the far-right come out to play..


      …then the rightwing-panel..

      ..p.r.-trout ralston..labour rightwinger pagani..and the far-right jordan williams..

      ..and..funny story..!

      ..they were all so in agreement with each other..

      ..they had difficulty mustering up any debate/discussion between themselves..

      ..they were all so busy trying to out-nod-in-agreement each other..

      ..and then just when you thought yr rightwing palate was well sated..

      ..over-fed even..

      ..they rolled out the rightwing black-propagandist..farrar..(!)



      phillip ure..

    • kenny 6.5

      This is how it’s going to be until the election. Starve the left of a platform whilst pushing the right-wing agenda at every opportunity. Tell lies, distract and refuse to engage.

      • Blue 6.5.1

        I’m sure TVNZ will give the left perspective for you. You might even be able hold a few meetings there.:)

    • Naki Man 6.6

      Pagani is a Labour supporter

      • felix 6.6.1

        She’s a right-winger trying to drag the Labour party even further to the right than they already are.

        Although to be fair, she doesn’t know she’s a right-winger. A more charitable reading would be that she’s an idiot who wants the party to pander to the whims of other idiots.

        • phillip ure

          if you watch the replay..you will see pagani unable to suppress her grin of delight at the idea of the greens being shut-out of govt..and peters taking their place..

          ..her mask well and truly slipped..

          ..pagani is a rightwing trout..in labour-drag..

          ..and i suspect her hatred of the greens stems from her alliance days..

          ..many alliance people blamed the greens pulling out..

          ..for the demise of the alliance..

          ..i would like to see her asked about that..

          ..that the craven corporate/access-media use/see her as a voice of labour..

          ..just confirms what a total sell-out of labour values..she is..

          ..phillip ure..

      • Paul 6.6.2

        Tony Blair was a Labour leader of the UK
        Roger Douglas was a NZ Labour minister

        All had drunk the neoliberal snake oil.
        And Pagani has too , hence the corporate media’s desire to have her as Labour’s voice.
        Pagani has more in common with John Key than working people of NZ.
        She does not represent their views.

      • David H 6.6.3

        Horseshit. All Pagani supports is Pagani

  7. big bruv 7

    Has McCarten paid his taxes yet?

    • Paul 7.1

      And so the puerile comments start for the day…..
      Soon your playmate sryland will be here to join you in the sandpit.

    • Skinny 7.2

      Has Rio Tinto paid the taxpayer back after Key-National unmistakenly gave them corporate charity.

    • mickysavage 7.3

      Hey big bruv have you paid your debts yet?

      • felix 7.3.1

        Good question. $100, wasn’t it?

        • mickysavage

          Yep payable to a charity of BLiP’s choice. Funny he should lecture McCarten on a debt he does not owe when Bruv does not pay a debt that he does owe.

          • big bruv

            Goodness me Micky. It seems I have hit a nerve. So, given that you are so close to Cunliffe can you tell me if McCarten has paid his taxes yet or is he still hiding behind his “illness”?

            • felix

              That’s a profoundly offensive insinuation you’re making with that punctuation on the last word, pity you’re too gutless to come out and say what you really mean. (Coward).

              btw all the tax questions were addressed the other day: on this site, in the sewer, and in the msm. That makes the rest of your question profoundly dishonest on top of the cowardice. (Liar).

              And on top of all that, you still haven’t paid your debt (welcher) while telling lies about the debts of others (hypocrite).

              What a guy.

            • Murray Olsen

              “Illness” Hmmm. I feel sorry for anyone who has to deal with you in real life, not because of what you’d say to them, but because of the cowardly attacks you’d make behind their backs.

        • greywarbler

          Can people discipline themselves and adopt DNFTT? The threads get filled up with crap, finding anything to read that is worthwhile is like trying to see through a Beijing pea souper.
          Try sending them to coventry – it worked for the brothers in Britain.

          • mickysavage

            You are right but it is hard to ignore chronic hypocrisy.

            • Paul

              Ok will stick to sending them to Coventry.
              Will type dnftt to anyone who does reply.
              Like others I find all the comments fill thread with white noise

            • RedBaronCV

              Any chance of getting their comment coloured red, or white so that we can avoid or not see it at all unless we make the effort

            • greywarbler

              Avoid the t.ol.s like the chronic plague. Just think about catching those horrible boils if you reply .
              From wikipedia (this will turn you off.)
              What was it like for a victim of the plague? … stool, and blood puddling under his skin, resulting in black boils and spots all over his body. … And he would die barely a week after he first contracted the disease. … Victims of Septicemic Plague died the most swiftly, often before any notable symptoms had a chance to develop.

              Actually there was a remembrance doco on Radionz recently on the 1918 NZ flu epidemic. People walking in the street collapsed and died, it came in two waves, the first was bad enough and people were unprepared for it to strike again and more seriously that time. I think 8000 people died in NZ in two or three months. 800 in the Wellington area. And they did not put them in mass graves. Brave dedicated religious ministers tried to give each a little service. A sad last blow at the end of the fighting of WW1.

          • big bruv

            People not paying their tax is “crap”?

            How hypocritical of the left. Had this been a right winger you lot would be all over it. Yet for some reason it is perfectly acceptable for a left wing low life to avoid paying his taxes.

            • Zorr

              How come has big bruv not yet been banned again for constantly pushing tired RWNJ meme-age? Or is it okay as long as it’s kept in Open Mike?

              Just bringing it up because getting tired of having to scroll through his bullshit and despite a DNFTT approach being a good idea, he never actually brings anything to the conversation. At least BM tries and has his own voice in these threads and despite disagreeing with him, I can at least appreciate the differing view.

              • felix

                I’m surprised he hasn’t been banned for potentially exposing The Standard to a defamation case.

                • Zorr

                  “The Standard” isn’t liable for anything that big bruv says because despite providing a forum for him to espouse his crap. If it was to ever make it to a court, it would need to be proven that the providing of a forum for debate (and then not banning someone from it) equates to endorsing such defamatory viewpoints.

                  I don’t think that there has been a case yet that has managed such a thing.

                  • felix

                    What does endorsing have to do with publishing?

                    • Zorr

                      Because providing a forum for discussion is not the same as publishing

                      Publication suggests that one has editorial control over the opinions expressed within – on an open forum, that can’t be reasonably assumed

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Endorsing has nothing to do with publishing.

                      This is Big Bruv’s honestly held opinion. Yes, it’s true, Big Bruv can’t even read the tea-leaves when Hooton has to withdraw and apologise. He really is a fuckwit of Capill or Garrett proportions.

          • Rosie

            Good call Warbly – I was enjoying reading through OM today, including the potty stuff. I did know about Thomas Crapper and know folks with composting loo’s but there were other items that were an education……………..

            And then those jerks came along and ruined the flow……….However, I think bruv needed to be called out on his appalling and callous reference to Matt McCarten’s cancer, which he was very lucky to survive. You have to be a lowly sort, in the territory of Slater even, to raise a person’s misfortune in the way he did.

            • greywarbler

              You have to toughen up. People like Big Bruv don’t have finer feelings that you can argue for. It’s deliberate provocation to derail comment away from the informative and thoughtful to those which are out of place in the discourse. It’s like those guys sledging on the sports field and making remarks about race, personal life, anything that will put the others of their game.

              All that happens when we protest and rail against puerile and callous comments is the other thinking ‘Ha ha gotcha’.

              • Rosie

                I think your perception of them is spot on, the sledging example summarises them perfectly. For those reason’s, it’s my preference to go down the DNFTT track, as I suggested a few days ago, but it’s up to others what they want to do and in this instance it was good BB was called out.

                (I’ve gotta tell ya though Warbly, you would be surprised at how tough I am IRL…..You might be surprised at what I am capable of!)

                • greywarbler

                  Ok Rosie. I won’t underestimate you. And I’ll try not to be wimpish either. As the year goes on the shocks could result in death from a thousand cuts if one didn’t watch out.

                  I’ve come across precepts of a Chinese general who is well thought of and sounds wise. For instance

                  Sun Tzu was not a belligerent war-monger. He enjoins states to be very circumspect in starting wars. He says:
                  l Anger may in time change to gladness; vexation may be succeeded by contentment. But a kingdom that has once been destroyed can never come again into being; nor can the dead ever be brought back to life.


    • Daveosaurus 7.4

      Has the National Party paid its outstanding GST bill yet?

    • fender 7.5

      What are you doing here “big bruv” ?

      Shouldn’t you be swimming in dribble with Prebble, Whyte, Douglas et al…

      They’re having their important meeting today, and it’s ok to take your “little sis” along too..

      • big bruv 7.5.1

        Would it also be ok for me to [deleted]

        [OK big bruv we put up with you because you are such a hypocrite. You lost a bet fair and square and welched on it. Which makes your current attacks pitiful. But you should understand that treating you like a moron does not allow you to defame others – MS]

  8. Some issues i really can’t get my head around. 1080 is one of them. I want to protect the birds. I understand the economic and coverage arguments. I know those mammals devastate if left for their big year. I can follow the scientific and environmental positions. Yet the thought of dropping this poison across the land is so uncomfortable that i can’t settle it. And when I read of the production and background and i consider my own holistic, Papatūānuku, connected philosophy it becomes even more difficult. Any ideas?

    DoC intends to drop some 650 tonnes of bait containing 975kg of 1080 on 500,000ha of native forest, most of it in the South Island. The targeted areas cover some of the country’s most dramatic settings – and where high-value, backcountry freshwater fishing spots can be found.

    The poison project, which DoC has branded the “Battle for our Birds”, has largely been applauded, despite the controversial history of 1080.

    Federated Farmers and Forest and Bird, two groups which often find themselves on opposite sides of environmental fences, have joined forces in shared initiative backing use of the poison, which has been subject to dozens of scientific studies.


    The article is a very good read.

    • Bill 8.1

      I’d guess an alternative would be to let all the various eco-systems develop to their new state of equilibrium. It troubles me that, having interfered with the natural balance of things through the thoughtless introduction of various species, we now see fit to maintain that imbalance through the favouring of some species over others. There’s an ideal of what NZ flora and fauna ‘ought’ to be…but we screwed that up via our various meddlings. There is also a reality of what it would all be if left to itself. Right now we are stuck betwixt and between and will never be able to recreate the ideal that we trashed.

      Maybe we should just let it all go, acknowledge our idiocy and be more humble stewards of what, over time, will eventuate.

      • weka 8.1.1

        “Maybe we should just let it all go, acknowledge our idiocy and be more humble stewards of what, over time, will eventuate.”

        Only if we agree that letting multiple native species go extinct is ok and acknowledge the impact on the ecosystems of that.

        Native ecosystems still exist within NZ, despite what humans have done. Why would we want to let those be further damaged? There are more options than some ‘ideal’ vs let it all go to hell.

        Plus, humans are part of the food chain. We could just accept our role and find best practice ways of doing that.

        • Bill

          So, continue with 1080 drops ‘for ever’? Okay. I just don’t think that’s sustainable over 500 or 1000 years or whatever. Meaning that, bar some left field event, the ‘holding pattern’ that we try to preserve will collapse. Pessimistic, I know. But if the pessimism is also realistic, then we might as well let the rebalancing commence. It’s not that I’m exactly enthralled by the idea btw, just…well, we can’t ‘keep the plates spinning’ forever (does anyone think we can?) – meaning that the end result we are trying to avoid will eventuate at some point anyway.

          • weka

            What makes you think that 1080 is the only option?

            • Bill

              And the other existing options are…? Like I said “bar some left field event”…and that, obviously, includes the possibility of any as yet unknown, ‘not thought of’ or untested control/eradication options.

          • McFlock

            Maybe not “forever” – just until a more effective method of control / eradication comes along

    • cricklewood 8.2

      Its an extremely vexed issue, oft forgotten is that possums in particular structurally change the forest canopy preventing this is vital. Generally they ‘prune’ the more palatable species and the less palatable types move into the space… unfortunately possums gun for the same as our nectar feeders. Once they are gone from the forest there is no putting them back it is amazing visiting regular 1080 treated blocks the forest canopy can be quite different and the understory is amazing.
      Necessary evil I feel until the boffins come up with something better I couldn’t bare to give up and settle for whats left… very little kowhai, rata, tawa even humble mahoe…

      • Alistair 8.2.1

        well if you dont want 1080 poison drops then you will have to settle for pine plantations and macrocarpas and willows. Bye bye rimu pohutakawa rata puriri and other trees that are our unique prehistoric remnants of the earliest forests here, and the birdlife that depends on them. We have a duty to protect them from the pests that are destroying them.

        If you want to retain our native flora and fauna then 1080 is the only way to kill the huge numbers of possums that are destroying it, no other method can keep up. The poison drops dont kill off the possums they only slow their population growth to where other inefficient trapping methods can have some additioal influence.

        I tramp in forests a lot and I have seen the difference in the same forest pre and post 1080 drops. Before, there is no intermediate growth and bush is easy to bush bash through. Only few years after a 1080 drop the seedlings have grown way past ankle height and forest becomes much more dense and harder to get through. Seedlings have to grow up to become trees. And the trees have to keep growing grow to support native birds.

        So no poison drops mean ‘yay no poison’, but then stop calling yourselves ‘kiwis’ because that bird wont exist, like the dodo. Call yourselves ‘magpies’ instead because thats the birds that will remain. Some things shouldnt be wasted in philosophical discussion, some things like survival. Survival of nzs unique flora and fauna.

        Our descendants wont thank us for leaving them a pine tree covered possum infested land when they see images of the forest and birdlife once here and they discover that we destroyed their heritage because we did fuck all to sustain its preservation and crapped on about trout eating poisoned mice.

    • weka 8.3

      I feel similarly marty. I’ve spent a lot of time in the bush and seen the huge difference that 1080 makes. And I also know that increasing use, and over long periods of time does not fit with good relationship with the land. I think we have other options we don’t use (creating fur and meat industry and trapping/shooting), but why would we bother when we can use something as easy as 1080? This is about values as much as anything. NZers like to have nature that looks right.

      • Bill 8.3.1

        I once heard someone suggest that a bounty be placed on possum. The suggestion was that $x get set aside and that once a year or whatever, the money set aside gets divvied up between those who had trapped or killed the possums for that year in some proportional way. The idea was that over time, the ‘price’ for a possum pelt or whatever would rise due to decreasing numbers and it would become a more attractive financial option to hunt possum.

        Couple of problems. The fur industry (internationally) is dead. Possum meat simply will not usurp the position of cow, sheep etc for both financial as well as cultural reasons. And as sure as eggs is eggs people will set up secretive caged possum sites to cash in on any rising bounty. Oh yeah…and a lot of the land where possums thrive is basically inaccessible….so traps and shooting isn’t really an option.

        Was quite a nice idea though. Or so I reckoned.

        • weka

          We don’t need to sell fur internationally. There isn’t really any anti-fur movement in NZ. I do think possum hunting could be made more humane, which would reduce the animal rights arguments.

          Possum meat would be for either pets, or gourmet restaurants.

          It’s very hard to farm possum in situations that would allow harvesting of fur or pelts. You might be right about a bounty system (eg where the tails only were needed for payment), but the way around that is the bounty is paid to people that make multiple use of the dead animal.

          You don’t have to eradicate possums, you just need to control the numbers to lower levels. Do that on the accessible land and this will reduce the load on the adjoining areas. I’ve not seen an analysis of how much land is inaccessible, but most places I can think of that are considered inaccessible, humans actually go. I think if they were paid or incentivised well, we would find many young climbers and outdoor adventure freaks willing to look after trap lines in hard to get to places, esp where the conservation values are high. Lots of people already doing shit in those places value conservation (and many people already do trap line maintenance in the bush as volunteers).

          If you look at stoat control programmes, which are designed to reduce the population enough to allow bird species to reproduce above population stability rate, the trap and poison lines are in some cases only checked once a month. The real issue isn’t accessiblity, it’s cost and where we place our values. We could improve trapping/shooting technology quite a bit too.

          Other options are to create predator-free zones using fencing. I think we will see this happening on larger scales in the next decade for conservation purposes, but I don’t see why we couldn’t do this for wider reasons eg farming. Consider places like the Otago Peninusla where you could put a predator fence across the narrowest point (don’t know if the Peninsula is TB-free, probably is, so possum control might not be a big issue there, but rabbits are. And there are significant places that could be reforested). Stewart Island could also be made predator free (theoretically, if the human political issues were solved).

          As is always the case, we need multiple strategies designed for specific areas. The reason DOC are so enamoured by 1080 is that its cheap relative to them paying people to go and leg trap possums and knock them on the head and to roll that out blanket fashion across the country. Likewise, regional councils now are using 1080 for rabbit control.

          There is a huge amount of waste in the possum control system. For instance fur possumers are leaving carcasses in the bush. I think some TB control crews leave the whole body behind. If we approached this from a multi-use perspective (fur, meat, conservation, TB control etc), then it’s easier to see how the finances could work. I have heard of criticisms of the idea that 1080 is actually cheaper, but have’t seen the figures myself.

          So really, it’s not about TINA, it’s about values and how we want to manage our resources.

          • weka

            btw, we used to have a possum pelt industry in NZ that paid decent enough for some possumers to make a very good living. I don’t know what happened to that. Would be interested in learning the history (at a guess I would say it was the mid/late 80s that that changed).

            • Murray Olsen

              I knew guys making a reasonable living from possums in the early 80s. One or two of them stopped because they got a bit worried about the dope plantations they stumbled across, and what the growers might do to defend them. My fading memory suggests people got out of it around the time of the first ACT government, but this may not be reliable, given my tendency to blame Douglas and Prebble for most things.

              • weka

                I was tempted to blame the first ACT govt too. I suspect there was a subsidy on the industry at that time that got removed.

  9. “..6 Ways To Get High Without Actually Smoking

    “..When it comes to recreational marijuana –

    forget the joint!

    People in Colorado—both Coloradoans and tourists —

    are enjoying cannabis in all kinds of new ways.

    “Most people don’t want to smoke” says Troy Dayton – CEO of The ArcView Group – a private marijuana investment and market research firm based in Colorado.

    “I think that the future is not going to be smoking of cannabis.

    It’s going to be all the other things.

    So there’s a huge huge boom in alternative forms of ingestion.”

    Alternative forms include every kind of edible imaginable (candies – cookies – butters – cooking oils)-

    vaporizer pens – concentrates – tinctures – and rubs…”


    (ed:..’i’ll have ‘a rub’..to go..thanks’..)


    phillip ure..

  10. greywarbler 10

    In case this notice was missed from the Hype post, I put it again. Allan English is an Australian entrepreneur who has looked at what he is going to do now that he has a good income from his business and has thought that philanthropy in assisting others to start small businesses is the way to go. He should be checked out, he might have a viable idea.

    Info on him and his trust


    He has free meetings in Rotorua and Wellington.
    Also hosting events for new philanthropists in Hamilton, Tauranga and Christchurch.
    To register for an event or to request more information, please contact Yvonne: yvonne@philanthropy.org.nz.

    There will also be events for business donors in Auckland.
    Auckland: ‘Building Great Partnerships’, 9am to 4pm, Tuesday March 4th, Telecom Conference Centre, Telecom Place, Auckland. A full day event with a variety of speakers. PNZ members: $100.00, Non-members: $250.00

    Rotorua: ‘From Success to Significance’, 10.30am to 12.30pm, Wednesday March 5th, Rm 1, Civic Centre Building, 1061 Haupapa St, Rotorua. No entry fee.

    Wellington: Meeting of the Wellington Funders’ Network, 9.30am to 11.30am, Thursday March 6th, Willis Tower, Telecom Central, 42 – 52 Willis St, Wellington. No entry fee.

    Radionz Audio from Thursday 27 February 2014
    From Success to Significance ( 20′ 36″ )
    19:12 The importance of supporting social entrepreneurs with Australian businessman now philanthropist Allan English.

  11. greywarbler 11

    Peter Jackson fans with attitude will be interested in this extremely sad little vid on the demise of the VFX (visual effects) Rhythm and Hues. These talented committed people turning out high quality art, creating magic images, have been killed off by the mercenary film industry and its chaotic, unplanned and constantly changing quixotic behaviour. They have treated their brilliant golden egg goose like they treat their casual cleaners. (And that is inhuman treatment, this is beyond belief.)

    About business and getting jobs.
    This about the wonderful developers behind the Life of Pi Rhythm and Hues. All about chasing the job from country to country as the film coys game the countries for the most tax breaks etc.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.1

      I posted an article covering this yesterday. It seems that the VFX workers in the US have a way to hit the major film studios with massive tariffs due to all the subsidies that governments, such as ours, have been throwing at the film industry. They’re hoping that it will bring work back to the VFX studios in the US. Of course, if it works it does mean that the VFX guys in Wellington are fucked.

      • greywarbler 11.1.1

        Thanks DTB. I didn’t catch up with yours. Someone told me about it and I was so shocked. And sad. I wanted to make sure it was seen so good that you drew attention. How would us signing up to TPPA work here. Would that mean it would further weaken the US workers or hit us in the mouth?

      • karol 11.1.2

        Thanks Draco.

        Interesting. The guy behind the latest move, in the article you cited yesterday, for US VFX workers is named as being the VFX Soldier blogger, Daniel Lay.

        I linked to that blog a while back in a post on the issue, and VFX Soldier made a comment under it.

  12. RedBaronCV 12

    Watched the ACT guy on the Nation. Inconsistent isn’t he. The government will collect tax money for education and hand it out to whoever wants to run a school. Why isn’t he true to his principles and not collect any tax money for education and let the parents pay directly to the schools of their choice. Ditto health money. Doesn’t he realise that our community already collects money and hands it out to the school of choice for the parents – the local state run non profit school.

    • Paul 12.1

      ACT 0 % of the vote. 20% of the media’s attention.
      The owners of our media like Julia Reinhart want to revive ACT

  13. captain hook 13

    I see Jamie Whyte getting a few column inches on page two of the Dompost this morning. The upshot is he is a nitwit. e.g. he says he believes in John Stuart Mills dictum that governments should stay out of business. That wasn’t alright in industrial revolution England when children were forced to work in satanic mills and climb chimneys and it is not right now when industrial pollution thereatens humanities v ery existence. Logic does not make truth and sayings dont make reality. Man must make his own bed out of the material at hand and not rely on some long dead philosopher to guide him. Especially nitwits who have no real experience of the world but yet want to foist their ivory tower ideas on the rest of us.

    • yes..this interview on the nation..has confirmed whyte as an auto-eroticist of the first order..

      ..(following in that long act tradition..who can forget what’s his name..?..and that other fella..?..)

      ..the great whyte-hope for act..he ain’t..

      ..poor john key..eh..?

      ..idiots to the right of him..

      ..idiots to the far-right of him..

      phillip ure..

    • greywarbler 13.2

      James James Morrison Morrison Weatherby George Dupree
      last seen wandering vaguely:
      quite of [his] own accord,
      He tried to get down
      to the end of the town –
      Forty Shillings Reward!
      (Apologies to AA Milne)

      James Dupree-White wants three strikes and you’re out extended to burglary. Fits in with ACTs concern about Property First (that would be a good name for them and make Winston’s look really meaningful).

      I guess he would like to send all those who steal a chicken or a silk handkerchief to somewhere far away so they spend Six months in a leaky boat and then get eaten by sharks or worked to death on some plantation. Back to the Future!

  14. Penny Bright 14


    Letter from NZ Solicitor-General refusing to grant leave for the private prosecution by Graham McCready of Auckland Mayor Len Brown, for alleged bribery and corruption:



    Please note that the NZ Serious Fraud Office did NOT deal with the complaint made by myself and Lisa Prager against Auckland Mayor Len Brown as a ‘bribery and corruption’ complaint, but as a ‘serious and complex fraud’ complaint, although they purport to be the lead agency to whom bribery and corruption complaints should be made:


    “In making a decision to commence a Part 1 or Part 2 investigation the Director of the SFO is obliged to be satisfied of the statutory preconditions for the exercise of those powers set out in the Serious Fraud Office Act. ”

    As you are no doubt aware, as General Counsel, the underpinning Serious Fraud Act 1990, makes no mention whatsoever of the words ‘bribery or corruption’, it only covers ‘serious or complex fraud’:


    Part 1
    Detection of serious or complex fraud

    4 Exercise of powers under this Part

    5 Power to require production of documents

    6 Power to obtain search warrant

    Part 2
    Investigation of suspected offences involving serious or complex fraud

    7 Exercise of powers under this Part

    8 Factors to which Director may have regard

    9 Power to require attendance before Director, production of documents, etc

    10 Power to obtain search warrant

    11 Power to assume from Police the responsibility for investigating certain cases of fraud

    It is the ’Memorandum of Understanding’ between the Police and SFO (which is not based in statute), signed by the former Director of the SFO, Adam Feeley and Police Commissioner Peter Marshall on 29 September 2011, (pd 19) ‘Schedule 6 – Bribery and Corruption’, which sets out how bribery and corruption offences should be handled:


    ” Schedule 6 – Bribery and Corruption

    This Schedule outlines the processes for reporting and enforcing corruption and bribery offences. These processes are to be adopted by the SFO and the Police to ensure there is a consistent approach to corruption reporting, investigation and enforcement in New Zealand.
    This Schedule has been developed to assist New Zealand’s compliance with the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Officials in International Business Transactions, and to support ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption.

    Referral process

    All bribery and corruption offences are to be referred to the SFO, who will act as a ‘single window’ for bribery and corruption reports.


    Corruption allegations are to be thoroughly investigated by the appropriate law enforcement agency in line with that agency’s policies and procedures. Where the report involves or originates from another government agency, that agency should be represented as much as appropriate.
    Specific corruption offences are found in the Crimes Act 1961 and the Secret Commissions Act 1910.


    The SFO’s point of contact for referrals of bribery and corruption cases is the SFO Liaison Officer. The SFO’s point of contact in regards to the joint assessment of reports is the General Manager Fraud Detection and Intelligence.
    Police’s point of contact for bribery and corruption cases is the Assistant Commissioner Investigations and International or his nominee.

    Lisa Prager and myself consider that the NZ Serious Fraud Office has not dealt with our ‘bribery and corruption’ complaint ( your reference: C 3592 ) against Auckland Mayor Len Brown and Sky City in the proper way, as outlined in the above-mentioned ‘Memorandum of Understanding between the Police and SFO’.

    Our original complaint (dated 22 November 2013), was dealt with as a ‘serious and complex fraud’ complaint – when it was clearly a ‘bribery and corruption’ complaint.

    It is our considered opinion, that New Zealand urgently needs a genuinely ‘Independent Commission Against Corruption’, tasked with preventing corruption; carrying out anti-corruption educational activity, and detecting and investigating corruption cases.

    In the meantime, it appears that the NZ Serious Fraud Act 1990, needs urgent updating to incorporate the responsibilities for reporting, investigating and enforcing bribery and corruption offences, as outlined in the above-mentioned ‘Memorandum of Understanding between the Police and SFO, Schedule 6 – Bribery and Corruption’.

    Please be advised that we are considering taking our bribery and corruption complaint against Auckland Mayor Len Brown to Auckland Central Police, given the failure of the NZ Serious Fraud Office to treat it as such, and for the NZ Solicitor-General to subsequently rely on this decision, which we believe is fundamentally flawed.

    We expect justice to be done and be seen to be done, and the ‘rule of law’ to prevail.

    Penny Bright


    Lisa Prager

    • bad12 14.1

      ANY evidence what-so-ever of Browns so called corruption Penny???, other than the ”we think it therefor it is” which seemed to be the sum total of the Graham Mac allegations against Brown in His failed prosecution???,

      You know Penny, like independent witnesses who had ‘paid’ Brown who were willing to enter the dock of the Court and state that Brown received payment for X favor and everyone concerned knew that the payment was for X favor…

    • Ron 14.2

      Anyone else getting tired of Bright’s continual harassing of the Mayor of Auckland solely it would appear because she could not defeat him at the ballot box.
      I would suggest that she just waits 2 more years and stands for mayoralty and see how much the people of Auckland are in the slightest bit interesed in her polices

      • Anne 14.2.1

        Anyone else getting tired of Bright’s continual harassing of the Mayor of Auckland… ?


    • MrSmith 14.3

      Look Penny the Jaffa’s are quiet happy with there Mayor it seems and I think he’s a perfect representation of the average Jaffa don’t you, two timing, big mouthed and trust! trust one about as far as you can throw one.

  15. tricledrown 15

    Gina Reinhart.
    Daughter of lang Hancock who owned blue sky mining the the blue asbestos mine in the Wittenoom (Aboriginal name meaning valley of death) the hancock family flogged the mine off to Hardi’s neither took responsibility for all the cases of emphcema the workers and families contracted while working and living in the township of whitnoom working in the mine on the rail to pt samson WA.
    She has a family history of riding roughshot over workers rights.
    She lived in the township of wittenoom while growing up.
    The town and surrounding area has been closed off because of blue asbestos being blown around the area is at unsafe levels let’s hope she has ingested Enough of it to put an early end to her life like her families company did to thousands of blue asbestos workers.

    • RedBaronCV 15.1

      FWIW I thought the blue asbestos mine in Wittenoom became a CSR mine. I do remember Hancock back when proposing that the australian govt/taxpayer build a railroad across the top end of Australia so he could ship his Pilbarra iron ore out of Queensland and hired a Qantas jet for a joy ride to show were. Clearly not expecting to pay from Pilbarra proceeds, talk about proposed taxpayer subsides – that was the big one.

    • Murray Olsen 15.2

      Lovely family, the Hancocks. It’s scary that Australian politicians love them so much. Old Lang was a real gem and had obviously thought long and hard about the social problems arising when you kick people off their land and dig it up.


  16. If you need a good read – JMG has been running a series of posts on the big f-ism and many intertwined topics.

    One of these latter deserves a good deal more attention than I’ve given it so far: whether the Long Descent of industrial society will be troubled by a revival of fascism.


    • RedLogix 16.1

      Yes I linked to those myself a few days ago and I thoroughly second marty’s recommendation. I always catch up on JMG as often as I can, and these last three essays are especially worth the time to read them.

      Frankly I’ve no idea how he manages to post such quality material on a weekly basis as he does.

  17. Pete 17

    So it turns out the US, UK and Russia issued Ukraine a security guarantee in 1994. Confused reports are coming in that Russia has invaded the Crimea. I’m getting a very Belgium 1914 feeling about this.

    • Bill 17.1

      I’m getting a very Belgium 1914 feeling about this

      Nah. There’s a lot of hyping and bullshit reporting going on. Can I suggest you click through the first link I put on the ‘Power and Voices’ post and, further, explore the links that come from that piece?

      There is no desire for a split, in spite of what the msm keeps reporting.
      There is also absolutely no way Russia will invade.
      There is also no great desire among Ukrainians for an EU/IMF inspired round of servitude and austerity.

      If the EU, US and Russia would just keep their fucking noses out of it and leave the people to decide their own future…okay, not going to happen. What then, if we, through popular news sources, were given access to the voices and thoughts of ordinary people, instead of this ‘big boy’ talk that utterly excludes the wishes, desires and aspirations of citizens, or at best offers simplistic caricatures of their supposed intentions by squeezing them into the ‘big boy’ framework? Could that see the emergence of a little thing called international solidarity or internationalism? May do. Which is why I was suggesting that the genuflective reporting of self labelled liberal commentators is contrary to our interests and that they are basically our enemy.

      • bad12 17.1.1

        IF, the Ukraine descends into what could become a state of civil war, the west of the country has already had one ethnic group declare itself an independent state, and the South with a hefty population of Russians, 40–60%, might yet do the same then it is more than even odds that Russia will send in a lot of heavy armor to protect its citizens and its Black Sea fleet,

        There was no sloth evident in the neighboring state of Georgia in 2008 when the breakaway province of Ossetia was threatened by the Georgian President, Russia simply sent their massed tank brigades across the border sending everyone running with tails tucked including the Georgian President,

        What would probably stop an immediate escalation should those same Russian tanks be sent into the Ukraine is the relative political stability and economic prosperity of Germany…

        • Bill

          Are you referring to the West Ukrainian People’s Republic that existed from 1918-1919?

          On the Russian speaking population, there is a big difference between speaking a particular language and having an antagonistic or separatist national identity…many countries are bi/multi -lingual/cultural. Belgium is a reasonable example of that.

          There are also massive differences with regards the respective situation as it was in Georgia and the current one in Ukraine.

          And I’m a bit lost on the reference to Germany.

          Besides, I can’t see the Ukraine descending into a state of civil war unless it is armed proxies of various external actors battling it out, which isn’t civil war – it’s something else, like as in Syria.

          I’m just going to say this again – I’m fucked off that even our supposed liberal channels for communication are mouth pieces, bound and tied to established authority, that only ever report the world as seen through the lens of established authority.

          Proper reporting might see the US, Russia, the EU and whoever else being given a resounding ‘Fuck off!’ from even their own citizenry. Now, that would be kinda positive, no? Better than being reduced to buying into this side or that side of a world view that essentially discounts us by treating us as nothing more than a conglomeration of insignificances to be convinced of the supposed righteousness of someone elses ‘greater’ game plan.

          • Draco T Bastard

            The Crisis In Ukraine

            As Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland made clear in her speech last December and in the leaked recording of her telephone conversation with the US ambassador in Kiev, Washington spent $5 billion of US taxpayer dollars engineering a coup in Ukraine that overthrew the elected democratic government.

            The question at the moment is whether Washington miscalculated and lost control of the coup to the neo-nazi elements who seem to have taken control from the Washington-paid moderates in Kiev, or whether the Washington neocons have been working with the neo-nazis for years. Max Blumenthal says the latter: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37752.htm

            It seems that Washington may have miscalculated and really has started another war. Either that or they were looking for another one.

            • Bill

              Nah, seriously! Look, there is no doubt that fuckers acting for the US, Russian and EU establishments have tried and are probably still trying to game all this to their advantage. But it was and is all about the Ukrainian people. And we should be positioning them front and centre stage….seeking to understand them and offer them whatever solidarity we can. Fuck all this shit about it all being the result of machinations by this or that power bloc. The citizens got fucked off. The citizens then told the president to fuck off. And hopefully the citizens will, like in Argentina a few years back, tell any interim government to fuck off too.

              • Zorr

                That’s missing the point that was originally raised though Bill. That if there is a security agreement in place and Ukraine falls in to a state of civil conflict, there may be a danger that if any one power makes a move to either help stabilize/take advantage of the situation, then it may lead to a similar situation as in 1914.

                This would indeed be… regrettable.

                And it has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening to Ukraine internally but external forces seeing opportunity in crisis.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Nah, seriously! Look, there is no doubt that fuckers acting for the US, Russian and EU establishments have tried and are probably still trying to game all this to their advantage.

                Of course they are.

                But it was and is all about the Ukrainian people.

                The global elite don’t give two hoots about the Ukrainian people or, in fact any people other than themselves.

                Fuck all this shit about it all being the result of machinations by this or that power bloc.

                But that’s exactly what it is and denying that won’t help the situation.

                The citizens got fucked off. The citizens then told the president to fuck off.

                But was that of their own initiative or because of outside manipulation?

                • Bill

                  But was that of their own initiative or because of outside manipulation?

                  This sound familiar?

                  …once in power Yanukovich introduced anti-worker austerity and neo-liberal reforms, privatizing everything in sight, often (like the Presidential Palace) to his family’s enormous profit, which explains why he was universally hated. As Vlatislav testifies: “The natural gas tariffs were growing; the government launched medical reform which will eventually lead to closure of many medical institutions and to introducing the universal medical insurance instead of the unconditional coverage; they pushed through extremely unpopular pension reform (raising pension age for women) against the will of more than 90% of population; there was an attempt at passing the new Labor Code which would seriously affect workers’ rights; the railway is being corporatized; finally, they passed a new Tax Code which hit small business

                  From “Ukraine, Revolution or Coup” by Richard Greeman, linked on the ‘Vooices and Power’ post I put up yesterday.

                  edit – which would suggest it’s a reaction to external bullshit. Anyway, as I’ve said elsewhere, we can accept this reduction of ourselves to mere spectators or begin to explore ways to reassert internationalism.

          • bad12

            Bill, if you are lost for understanding the reference i make to Germany and it’s present apparent political stability and economic good fortune for a war of any substance to occur in Europe i would suggest one element is present, a Russia prepared to ‘protect’ its ‘interests’ in the Ukraine just as it did in Georgia in 2008,

            The other element a belligerent Germany tho, which has been the precursor to many of the European conflicts through the ages, i would suggest is not, does that clarify the former comment i make re: Germany,

            Your reference to the West Ukraine Peoples Republic 1918–1919, No i am referring to the here and now, but, your reference just points out that the ethnic differences are a deep vein in the Ukrainian psyche going back many years probably far further than the early 1900’s,

            Civil wars are not necessarily waged with the use of tanks and ships and planes as the Rwandian machete wielders will tell you, and, as the recent political revolution in the Ukraine highlighted, once the divisions in a society begin to be settled by violent means ‘settling the score’ can easily be accomplished with the normal tools of modern living,

            i see what your saying about the media but i would suggest it will have little sway upon the outcome of what next occurs in the Ukraine which like Georgia befor it might in part become a harline pro-western nation with any number of breakaway provinces choosing to opt for the Russian influence…

            • bad12

              PS, Bill, please explain these massive differences between what occurred in Georgia 2008 and the current situation in the Ukraine,

              If anything the Russians have more to protect in their ‘interests’ in the Ukraine than they did in Georgia…

              • Bill

                Well, for start, Georgia was looking to militarily annex South Ossetia. The situation in the Ukraine is completely different in that regard.

                Also, logistically and politically, a Russian military incursion into the Ukraine would be a completely different kettle of fish to its incursion into Georgia with, obviously, different consequences and reactions.

                Also – maybe look to the example of Chechnya and then contemplate the likelihood of any Russian occupation of the Ukraine – a far larger territory.

                On the other hand, if Russia felt compelled to protect its naval base at Sevastopol, well…

                Meanwhile, there is no violence being reported from the Ukraine, which begs the question as to why our media are whipping things up and raising the spectre of violent chaos as opposed to reporting on the ‘mood on the ground’ and what people are actually doing or how people are organised etc.

                • bad12

                  i think ‘events’ have somewhat overtaken this little debate, reports and pictures from Prime News shows what are believed to be a flight of Russian helicopters at treetop height flying into the Ukraine,

                  Unidentified troops well kitted and in fatigues seem to have taken over at least two airports,(i will assume here close to Sevastopol) so again i will assume that Russian has moved to protect it’s interests and citizens in the area,

                  i do not believe that Russia has any interest in a ‘whole of Ukraine’ occupation, but, if people in the South of the country declare a breakaway State i am pretty sure that the Russians will not allow the Ukrainian army to crush it,

                  Therein might lie a real ‘flash-point’ with Obama also appearing on Prime news warning the Russians of serious consequences should they send in the troops,

                  Perhaps the gunships were Putin’s reply to that…

                  • Bill

                    Simferopol Airport is in the Crimea and the other airport is a military one. Russia has already denied any involvement…it happened on Thursday night. The soldiers are unidentified.

                    The Guardian link at comment 20.1 was a rather, erm…how to say?…partial piece of reporting on the events you’re referring to.

                    • f.f.s..! bill..!..pay attention..!

                      ..the soldiers are russian..

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • bad12

                      Thing about a ‘denial’ Bill is that while everyone was ‘unbadged’ so as their country of origin couldn’t be identified the pictures shown of the light armour claimed to be on the roads to these airports had at least one showing the Russian colors,(could be a MSM plot of course)…

                    • karol

                      This Al Jazeera report makes it sound like Russian forces are moving into the Crimea – there’s many unverified, word of mouth reports they are trying to verify. The report speculates that Russia wants to get the Crimea back as they consider it there’s – the Russian explanation for the troop movements seems to be that they are there to protect Russians in the area.

                    • Bill

                      Are you saying that a military vehicle traveling on a road to (perhaps) a military base (ie, the airport) had Russian insignia or whatever on display!? OMG! ‘Cept…y’know, I can imagine that happens every day in …oh, say Okinawa – except the insignia would be US as opposed to Russian. And no-one would take a US LAV traveling (possibly) between bases in Okinawa as a sign that the US were invading Japan, would they? So why, in the absence of a Russian announcement to the effect that they were suspending all of their troop movements in an area where they have long term military leases, jump to such quick conclusions?

                      And please note – I’m not saying there’s not bad shit going down – just that a hefty dose of cynicism would seem to be the order of the day given that our media are peddling their ‘Big Boy Masters’ agendas thick and fast….again… and as usual.

                    • karol

                      The AJ report includes things like the TV station being taken over by the troops – they have a reporter on the ground trying to verify the claims.

                    • Bill

                      @ Karol.

                      The only verifiable piece of information from that Al Jezeera report is this …

                      The Russian Black Sea Fleet issued a statement denying the accusation and insisted its forces had not seized or taken any other action at a military airport near Sevastopol, the port on Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula where the fleet is based, Russia’s Interfax news agency reported.

                      The rest is all accusation,rumour and innuendo. Not saying that the accusations and what not may not turn out to be true and the official statements a lie but, y’know…

                    • bad12

                      Bill, your 7.12 comment, now your just being stupid, the light armour was shown by the TV news clip to be on the roads leading to two airports, not traveling in convoy but parked up in line on the side of the road with a couple of them being used as a road block and the un-badged soldiers searching vehicles,

                      That make it clear enough for you???

                      The other obvious point of interest if the TV news story is to be believed is that as part of the lease agreement for the Black Sea Fleet to occupy the port NO military vehicles can leave the base at the port without the express permission of the Ukranian Government,

                      i guess as far as the Crimea goes the Russians have done exactly as i said they would, moved to protect the 90 odd percent of citizens that consider themselves to be Russian and bolstered the 25,000 service personal they already have in the Crimea with what is probably a couple of thousand of their equivalent to our SAS…

                    • Bill


                      Just got around to watching the Prime News report you mentioned above – and there’s no footage there of Russian marked vehicles alongside unidentified armed men doing vehicle checks.

                      Also didn’t hear any reference to all Russian troop movements requiring authorisation from the Ukranian Parliament or whatever.

                      Regardless, what interested me was the reporters insistence that there exists a large separatist movement within the Crimea. That’s flying in the face of what I’ve read – ie, that very, very few people (less than 10%) from any identifiable region including the Crimea are separatists.

                      Who do you imagine any Russian troops would be defending Russian speakers of the Crimea from btw? Mobs of Ukrainians ‘out for blood’?!

                    • bad12

                      Selective viewing was it Bill, the news item i viewed showed that all the light armoured vehicles were un-badged except for one which probably either in sloth or disobedience had a red white and blue insignia clearly seen on the vehicle,

                      you obviously must have watched something different than me, yes i thought you might have taken that reference to the contractual arrangement to have been broadcast on the news,

                      Not so, i found that little bit of info digging on the web, call me liar if you wish and i will dig round until i find it gain and post the link,

                      At which point tho i would expect you to post a series of comments conveying a suitable arse kissing comment,

                      Catch a read on the Time piece from between the 27th and today, another one i didnt bother to get a link for, but will, on the same conditions as above, Time has reporters on the ground there and if the report is true there is a lot more going on there than you seem willing to believe and its not a write up of any super-power driven tussle…

                    • Bill

                      Why would I call you a liar in regard to anything that you’ve said on this thread? It hasn’t crossed my mind. You said that a Prime News report had shown some stuff and so I watched a Prime News report. I didn’t see that stuff and didn’t hear reference made to any agreements that I mistakenly assumed were in the same report on the basis of how you worded one of your comments here.

                      All that aside, I’m most definitely unimpressed that you seem to want to take a difference of opinion on the veracity of our medias’ reports on foreign events and turn it into some kind of ego thing though. Is that really how you want to see different opinions and perspectives ultimately playing out on ‘the standard’…reduced to infantile ego driven bullshit?

  18. tricledrown 18

    Lurid Len has dodged a bullet.
    So far.
    But the bureacrats and Stephen Joyce need to be prosecuted.
    Mobie and Joyce look as they have colluded to buy Whittalls way out of prosecution.
    29 people have died.
    $340 million dollars spent on a hole in the ground a lot of it taxpayers money from NZOG .
    No laws for the rich.
    Throw away the key for the poor.

    • Penny Bright 18.1

      There are – as it were – fuses lit to other sticks of political dynamite that are burning away on this and closely-related matters ….

      I wish people would focus on the herd of mammoth elephants in the room – the increased risks of money-laundering and organised crime arising from the Sky City convention deal?

      Mayor Len Brown was very much Prime Minister John Key’s ‘little helper’ in his support for the Sky City convention centre deal and subsequent legislation, which was a 180 degree ‘U-turn’ from his previous support for a sinking lid policy on pokie machines.


      “There was a meeting between the Acting Minister and the Mayor of Auckland Council (Mr Len Brown) on 7 April 2011, to seek Mr Brown’s support for the SkyCity convention centre proposal and his agreement to be part of a later joint public announcement ”
      “Announcing the Government’s decision


      On 12 June 2011, the Government announced that it was negotiating with SkyCity, because its proposal had been selected as the best option for a large (3500 people capacity) international convention centre in Auckland. The announcement was at a media-only event at the offices of the law firm Kensington Swan in Auckland. The Prime Minister, Acting Minister for Economic Development (Hon David Carter), Mayor Brown, and the Chief Executive of SkyCity attended.”

      Sorry folks – but TRUTH is TRUTH and no amount of ‘turd-polishing’ is going to turn this political ‘goat shit into honey’ – as it were…

      Kind regards,

      Penny Bright

      • One Anonymous Bloke 18.1.1

        Yeah, Penny, everyone knows you think your opinions are evidence of something. That makes you look like a fucking idiot.

        You look like a fucking idiot, you fucking idiot.

      • Chooky 18.1.2

        +100…Go Penny!

        “Mayor Len Brown was very much Prime Minister John Key’s ‘little helper’ in his support for the Sky City convention centre deal and subsequent legislation, which was a 180 degree ‘U-turn’ from his previous support for a sinking lid policy on pokie machines.”

        btw…you are not an idiot! ( but clearly there are some who are…around here)

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          The small matter of not a shred of evidence?

          Pok, pok, pok, pok, pok?

  19. freedom 19

    Of late, I have been mulling on what past generations, if they could, might want to say to us today.
    I think this message would be a fair summation.

    for the train spotters of NZ politics, I took some artistic license within the image, four times actually 🙂

    (not counting the banner of course)

  20. Sanctuary 20

    I really, really hope the Ukrainians and Russians don’t end up fighting a war. All the Russians and Ukrainians I’ve ever met were nice people 🙁

    • Bill 20.1

      Question. If the citizens of the EU told their respective governments to ‘fuck off out of it’, and if the citizens of Russia and the US gave the same message to their respective governments, and if, even we, were able to instruct the NZ government to relay that same message through whatever international forum…then (if those citizen demands were taken on board) do you think there would be armed conflict in the Ukraine?

      Becomes highly unlikely, no?

      Now, I know that level of internationalism is kinda ‘pie in the sky’ at this moment in time. But it is never going to get off the ground for as long as we tolerate our media spoon feeding us bullshit and then forming our own understandings/arguments/fears according to that bullshit, is it?

      I mean – christ! – the latest piece I just read in ‘The Guardian’ (that supposed bastion of thoughtful liberal news) is whipping the whole thing up….unidentified soldiers = must be Russians!!! (No other possible explanation) And (OMG!) lawless biker gangs…(eek!) the Night Wolves no less…on the streets!!!

      As one commenter under the article noted This is certainly an odd invasion, in dribs and drabs, by night, using the local motorcycle club, troops with insignia removed, etc while another commented I think America needs to think about sending the Hells Angels in.

      edit the article I’m referring to is this one http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/ukraine-night-wolves-military-seize-crimea

      • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1


        blockquote>Becomes highly unlikely, no?


        Not necessarily if the violence is starting in the Ukraine.

        • Bill

          Not necessarily if the violence is starting in the Ukraine

          Well, obviously. But the question I was posing was that in the absence of external interference, what likelihood would exist for violence erupting…within the Ukraine?

          Given that fewer that 10% of people in any given region of the Ukraine support any kind of separatism or whatever, I’m sticking with ‘highly unlikely’.

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.2

        do you think there would be armed conflict in the Ukraine?

        Becomes highly unlikely, no?

        There is a well-oiled propaganda machine that is practiced and very able to manipulate public opinion (manufacture consent, if you will) in favour of war.

        They didn’t quite pull it off with Syria but they did just fine with Libya.

        • Bill

          There is a well-oiled propaganda machine that is practiced and very able to manipulate public opinion (manufacture consent, if you will) in favour of war.

          Our supposedly liberal and impartial media being a very good example of that…

    • Paul 20.2

      Read independent news to find out what’s going on in the Ukraine.
      Shock Doctrine in action by the sounds of it

    • xtasy 20.3

      Snactuary – that may be so, but when power politics come to play, they will all be twisted and change their minds, same as “ordinary” and “decent” Germans suppporting Hitler at some time back. Go and take another history lesson, please. It is necessary to fight evil from the very start, before it is even allowed to be given any space. F Nazism and fascism, and F Putin, he is a modern day Nazi in my eyes.

  21. Ron 21

    Why is the latest Pike river scandal absent from news media (Radionz excluded).
    It appears from the ongoing story that a Government Dept at the behest of who knows who, approached to defense team and offered to bury prosecution for a small amount of money to be paid to families of victims.
    We now await for the government to release the relevant documents to prove the defense suggestion that it was the department that approached them.
    It would seem that this whole fiasco was uncovered by Radio NZ seeking information. Since then I have seen nothing from other radio or newspaper.
    What is going on here?

    • xtasy 21.1

      Ron – things too harmful for the government tend to be put into secondary mode, that is within the MSM, and I fear you have not noticed enough how often that happens. National manged to place some key person onto the boards of TVNZ, Radio NZ and so, and hence we get a less critical reporting there.

  22. geoff 22

    Tamati Coffey running for Labour! Excellent. Had no idea he was a political science graduate.
    Maybe he’d like to post to the Standard?

  23. bad12 23

    Hell i just realized its the first day of Autumn, i want my money back coz Wellington didn’t get a summer…

  24. tricledrown 24

    Sad 23 the rest of yhe country didn’t either.

  25. xtasy 25

    RESISTE el capitalismo:

    (sorry about the SHIT NZ ad before iit, what a disgusting treatment of open media, to dishonour a valued revolutionary, with putting crap commercial ads before the video, but that is what NZ today is, a commercially corrupted CRAP society!!!)

    Do never ask a “Kiwi” to “fight” he or she will not, rather give in to the signature at the dotted line, shame, shame , and more shame, I fight, where are you???

  26. xtasy 26

    Natalie Cardone with a more catchy tone of the same:

    Musica revolutionaria is all over the place, we need more of it.

  27. xtasy 27

    One more – compliments to the NSA and GCSB and SIS:

    We know you are watching us!!!!

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