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Open mike 01/06/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:39 am, June 1st, 2014 - 179 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

179 comments on “Open mike 01/06/2014 ”

  1. andy (the other one) 1

    Full page add on Page 20, Sunday Herald reads:

    Nice one Sue.

    We couldn’t be further apart on the political spectrum.

    We stand for different things, but we respect any politician that stands up for what they believe in, unfortunately they’re a bit thin on the ground at the moment.

    You can change all this on September 20.

    Conservative Party…

    With large picture of Sue Bradford. I bet she is chuffed with that. Some how implying that the Colin Craig party has principles wwhile having Christine Rankin aboard, hilarious.

    • karol 1.1

      Well, a lot of commentators have said Key will be talking to Craig as soon as….

    • karol 1.2

      You missed the bit which says:

      vote Conservative
      Stand for something

      hahahahahaha. So “something”…. anything? What are these principles of which they speak?

      • Tigger 1.2.1

        Money. Homogeneity. And money.

      • Murray Olsen 1.2.2

        Bashing the holy spirit into your kids, and, ummm……… maybe compulsory prayer in schools, and ummmm……….pictures of Jesus on our money……and, did I mention bashing our kids yet?
        We’ll also replace public hospitals with prayer centres, because if the Lord wants you to get better, he’ll fix you. In recognition that sick parents may need help fulfilling their parental duties, we’ll have a specially trained Paddle Squad to punish children. Ummm……and overly promiscuous NZ women will be shamed by being placed in stocks at the entrances to our houses of worship. GCSB powers will be extended so that panty sniffing won’t be just a slogan……..

        That’ll do for a start.
        (Please note that this is satire, for those with a tenuous hold on reality.)

    • Pasupial 1.3

      Nice one Sue, Sue-y nice one
      Nice one Sue, Never; how d’ya do?
      Or; good to see ya…

    • Tracey 1.4

      So millionaire colin craig finances a party to make it legal to hit his children, but dotcom with mana makes john key feel “dirty”

      Craig has admitted breaking the law in this area but luckily for him hasnt been charged. Doesnt mean he isnt a law breaker

      • Colonial Viper 1.4.1

        Different rules for us, than for them.

        • Tracey

          Which is why so much angst amongst them… No fair, they squeal between the lines, they usually play nice and let us run roughshod over them, tricky bastards

      • TheContrarian 1.4.2

        Craig is financing his own party. Bit of a difference there.

    • Clemgeopin 1.5

      Ha, ha! Funniest ad so far this year!

      Colin Craig could have made it even more hilarious by including other names below his….names such as


    • Draco T Bastard 1.6

      I hope she’s about to sue them for using her image without her permission.

      • TheContrarian 1.6.1

        Unless it was a public domain image of course.

        • greywarbler

          @ Contrarian
          Surely there is a law amongst all of the ones we have that ensures that nobody can just use an image at will of someone who is in the public eye, known to be alive in the present, and who has not given permission to be used as an illustration for something being displayed to others?

          • TheContrarian

            If that were so I would hope Lynn has a good lawyer as John Key has probably not given his consent to have his image used here.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Nope, I suspect even that would require her permission because by using her image the CP have just associated Bradford with it and I can’t think of party that Bradford is less likely to associate with.

          • TheContrarian

            Public Domain images do not require consent and the ad does not imply Bradford supports the Conservatives.

            So no, she can’t sue.

            • greywarbler

              Who says what I take the ad to imply? It’s not cut and dried. The supposition would be that she has given permission or looks favourably on the Conservative Party.

              And Key’s pictures here are shown because he is the PM and the head of the National Party, everyone knows that and we want to see him, hear him, recognise him because he is in a position of central importance to us and we need to know what he is up to. He is in the public domain because he wishes to be the leader of the NZ public political process.

              • TheContrarian

                It is doesn’t matter if you are the PM a back-bench MP or a blogger like Farrar (whose image is used here frequently also), if an image picture is public domain it can be used, without attribution or consent, by anyone as long as it doesn’t endorse a product or service.

                The ad doesn’t imply that Bradford endorses the CP, the ad stress the differences between Bradford’s views and the Conservatives. It is irrelevant if you view it as an endorsement – you can’t sue on behalf of Bradford.

                • greywarbler

                  The CP is using Sue Bradford’s image for their own gain and if she has not agreed to it I cannot see how they can get away with it. If she had her head photo shopped on another body, or was connected with something that was detrimental to her public standing or beliefs, there would be some control, redress, or legal injunction that she could take. However I do not know what she thinks about it all, so this is just an exploration by me of the possible avenues that she might use if upset by this use of her image.

                  The words defamation, libel, fair comment, malicious, abuse, public figure doctrine come to the fore. I note also that the NZ Bill of Rights Act 1990 does not over-ride others. It is quite possible that Sue Bradford could take action against the CP as this could constitute a malicious act on their part to misrepresent, link to her for the advantage of their own publicity, or confuse or smear her reputation in the eyes of the public.

                  In relation to possible legal action, this appears in a footnote on the Bill given in a thesis paper of Ursula Cheer, University of Canterbury, 2008.
                  ‘The Bill is not supreme law, however, as it cannot invalid inconsistent legislation (s.4) and the rights in it are subject to reasonable limits… ‘prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society’ (s.5).

                  • TheContrarian

                    “The CP is using Sue Bradford’s image for their own gain and if she has not agreed to it I cannot see how they can get away with it.”

                    It is public domain, she doesn’t have to agree with it. Much like the many images used on The Standard. Or on election billboards. Did David Farrar agree beforehand to have his image used at the standard? Did Helen Clark formally agree to have her image used on National hoardings? No, because public domain images can be used freely, without consent or attribution. There is nothing defamatory or libel about the way in which the CP used her image.

                    Bradford had this to say:

                    She doesn’t like it but it doesn’t matter. Her image is public domain. The Standard posts unflattering and manipulated photos of John Key, Judith Collins and Cameron Slater which are far more defamatory than what the CP has done.

  2. Paul 2

    Rodney Hide continues the attack on Labour by suggesting their vote will collapse and then scaremongering about NZ First and the Greens. For a man who got 1.5 and 3.6 % of the vote for the ACT Party, it’s a bit rich for him to be lecturing Cunliffe on his vote collapsing.

    Here’s the fear-mongering.
    “The Green’s Metiria Turei and Russel Norman would be deputy prime ministers and would dominate policy-making.
    Winston Peters would be kingmaker and would demand his pound of flesh.”

    These RWNJs are desperate. They are throwing everything at undermining every progressive party.
    They must have a lot to lose.

    • Tautoko Viper 2.1

      I have contacted the Herald asking them to put a disclaimer by Rodney Hide’s name when his column is about politics.

      • Paul 2.1.1

        Yes ACT with under 1% of the vote and yet two opinion pieces by people who support their policies.
        Hide, Grant.

    • Anne 2.2

      Yes Paul and the scaremongering continued on Q+A this morning.

      Josie Pagani is a disgrace! She actually nodded her head and agreed with Matthew Hooton’s predictable attack on Labour – and Cunliffe in particular. Not once did I hear her say anything in defence of Labour’s policy with respect to immigration – which was distorted and misrepresented by Hooton – or the so-called “splintered mess” on the Left which is how the current scene is being described. Imo, she is out of her depth and allows Hooton to twist her round his little fingers.

      Is this why Q+A put them together on the guest panel?

      • Paul 2.2.1

        Q an A put her on the panel because she won’t rock the neoliberal boat.
        She is a career commentator who lives a comfortable life. She has much more in common with Hooton, Key and Wood than the people she claims to represent.
        (Fox News uses the technique all the times of finding a soft democrat who always gets beaten up by the Republican counterpart.)

        • Colonial Viper

          Except they don’t beat Pagani up because she’s on their (the power-elite’s) side.

          • Draco T Bastard


            Pagani is no more of the left than I am of the right.

            • Tracey

              Pagani is left like

              were left

              • lprent

                Cullen was left. However the finance role that he took pre-1999 was inherently conservative. Damn good thing that he ran with the role rather than his actual inclinations.

                • Tracey

                  Sure but the lack of attack he attracted from national and act, i always thought was cos he ran things economically exactly as they would have.

                  • lprent

                    He took a lot of attack from National/Act. They wanted taxcuts rather than plowing the surpluses into killing debt.

                • Foreign Waka

                  NZ was lucky to have him. He has principles and has had NZ well being on his mind. It showed but as always history will be the judge.

              • Colonial Viper

                And don’t forget Prebble…

        • Anne

          Agreed Paul.

          Take, for example, the puerile attempt by both Hooton and Pagani to paint all criticism of her by online bloggers and commentators as being from “the hard-left”. I venture to suggest that many, like me, could be described as centre-left which is where she likes to paint herself to be. God forbid she should be centre-left!

          I think its time for Labour to disown her – if indeed she is still a member of the party.

          edit: +1 CV.

          • Paul


            • veutoviper

              many 1s. Labour should have disowned her publicly long ago. In many people’s minds, she is still associated with Labour and this preception should be put to bed publicly.

              • Paul

                So why won’t Labour leadership apply some discipline to such mavericks?
                Is it because she represents the views of a die-hard rump in the caucus who simply want a National lite policy?
                It makes no sense otherwise.

                • Colonial Viper

                  There is no way “to discipline” such “mavericks.”

                  • Paul

                    Could not the Labour Party say her views do not represent party opinion?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yes it could be said but to what end? She’s not a spokesperson for the party and receives no money from the party; she’s merely a private citizen and former candidate who along with her husband has had plenty of Labour Party connections in the past.

                    • Anne

                      CV is right.

                      Whilst she may still be a member on paper, I doubt she actively contributes to the party in any way (she was probably only active during her previous candidacy) and doesn’t attend meetings. Thus she can continue to publicly run down the party – and Cunliffe – without risking face to face critical feed-back or a reprimand.

                    • Mary

                      Trouble is that many of her views are Labour policy.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Thus she can continue to publicly run down the party – and Cunliffe – without risking face to face critical feed-back or a reprimand.

                      Then Cunliffe needs to come out and clearly state that she does not speak for Labour because at the moment a lot of people probably still think she’s part of the party.

                    • fisiani

                      Josie Pagani is a social democrat. Social democrats are no longer tolerated in the hard left Labour party. The problem for Labour is that they are fighting for the far left vote with the GIMP’s , well GIMs, To win the election they have to become National Lite. Impossible under The Cunliffe.
                      I take it this why the odds of The Cunliffe stepping down in 2014 is now 50%

                    • Paul

                      The Labour Party hard left.You’re having a laugh.

                      Sorry that might work on some folk with no knowledge of NZ history, but not with most people on this site. Compare their policies nowadays with the Labour Party of the 1970s and the 1930s. It’s called Google if you don’t know how.

                      I don’t know if you really are so historically ignorant or if you’re simply spouting the meme Slater or Farrar told you to say.
                      Either way, please don’t come back until you have something intelligent or informed to say.

                  • Skinny

                    Pagani doesn’t cut the mustard she should be replaced with a regular Union Head as Matt McCarten was. They have a far better finger on the pulse of the masses.

                    Bob Reid was great, probably too good after his last sterling performance having a crack at Susan Wood so we won’t see him again. Helen Kelly gets smacked about too much. Anyway there is any number of Union people who should be on there representing the Left.

                    Regarding disciplining, you would have to show someone the door politely or like me. I just laughed and basically said piss off when 2 party dispute facilitators come up with a stupid resolution over an internal scrap between 2 divisions within our local LEC. These clowns recommended to the Beltway Heads that amongst a range of bright idea’s that we stop commenting certain views on social media (on here). HQ never muttered a word about it next time we were together, too embarrassed it was put infront of them to consider I bet.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Seen Pagani’s latest diatribe over on Pundit?
            She’s all about how the new IMP means that Labour no longer needs to move to the left.

            • lprent

              Yeah. Josie Pagani is being as daft as ever.

              The IMP position(s) really makes no difference to Labour. They are appealing to some very small and very voting alienated segments of the population. If they manage to activate them and get them voting, then that is good. If they don’t, then it isn’t likely to make that much of a difference to the election result.

              You have to be in government before you can start changing the structural issues that are causing the drop in voting patterns. Just look at the election results. Despite having had a rise of 291,275 of eligible voters between the 2005 election and the 2011 election there was a rise of only 223,451 on the roll. Worse still is that those numbers aren’t reflected in those who vote. The number voting actually declined between 2005 and 2011. It was 2,286,190 in 2005, 2,356,536 in 2008, and a dispirited 2,257,336 in 2011.

              The IMP may carry some votes away from Labour and the Greens. But the effect is likely to only be the very soft votes, the ones that flick back and forth on the parties of the broad left. Too small and not really worth fighting over. There is nothing that National would like more than to see the left fighting over them rather than concentrating on their more useful tasks.

              Labours primary task to get that group who usually vote, who voted for Labour in 2008 but who didn’t vote at all in 2011. They need to get them back to the polls in 2014 before they stop voting permanently. It isn’t going to be that hard. People who usually vote don’t stop voting without a reason. They simply didn’t like the policies that Labour had in 2011. These are generally the same ones that Josie Pagani prefers, those dominated by the right of the party and the wellington appachniks.

              Those policies were designed to get back some of the soft vote the went to National in 2008. They didn’t attract much of them because they didn’t leave because of policy. However they certainly drove away a lot of Labours base vote. Those are the policies that are generally referred to as National lite. If you were a Labour supporter, then why bother voting for more of the same? That is the fundamental flaw in Josie Pagani’s ‘thinking’.

              Labour voters in 2011 also weren’t confident that Labour could or would actually implement the policies that they were professing because they looked far too much like a face saving compromises made in a uncompromising caucus. Basically the Labour caucus forgot the lesson of 1999 and the pledge cards. People will vote for a party when they are confident that they can do what they promise. They have absolutely no faith in a caucus that has the types of divisions that eventually caused the formation of New Labour back in the late 80s.

              While National is potentially even more vulnerable on this question of trust. The reality is that Labour is highly vulnerable on trust issues because of the 1980s and 90s amongst persistent Labour supporters. Having Goff up front didn’t exactly endear the idea of voting for Labour to them. It dissipated a lot of the trust that had been embedded into the 5th Labour government for doing what they said they would.

              So in 2011, many persistent Labour voters voted for other left parties. But a significiant portion just simply didn’t vote. They just couldn’t see the damn point. And if they had voted in 2011, then the election result would have been quite different.

              The Labour parties secondary task is to capture a chunk of the soft centre vote that shifted to National in 2008 in the “nanny state” media campaigns. Fortunately many of that group are increasingly irritated by National. They don’t need much targeting and since they are less concerned with policies than with ‘feel’. What they are interested in is having a government that is going somewhere. What worries them the most at present is probably going to be the overhanging debt that National has recreated again. Paying that back before the next crisis is going to be a pain and it certainly doesn’t make National look like it has any coherent plan to say that they may start paying it back in a decade.

              Incidentally I damn near had to force myself to vote in 2011 because I had such a sense of disgust at the silly antics in MPs in Wellington. Admittedly I probably saw more than most because I was moderating here. But they really were a quite strange mixture of arrogance and self-regard by MPs and their staffers as they lost cohesion and the ability to deal with each other. It was stupidity central for a while as various MPs fell over themselves in their attempts to be the silliest dickheads.

              I vowed then that if I didn’t see a substantive change in cohesion, then I’d vote Green next time. Made that decision to do so after watching the useless arseholes in caucus and their staffers trying to run a media show trial using the press gallery at conference in 2012. My view was that any party so willing to shoot itself in the foot to that extent didn’t deserve my vote.

              It looks a whole lot better this time around after the leadership vote further out inside the party. But I always make my voting decisions mid-term…

            • Tracey

              Its her wet dream, labour finally being able to be national.

              Thecommentator for the left who only visits this block to drop a whinging defence of herself while holidaying and never returns

      • Hami Shearlie 2.2.2

        Yes that panel are a cosy little cabal aren’t they?

    • Tracey 2.3

      What does he do for a living these days? Or is he living off his parliamentary pension?

  3. (could someone cc this to the internet party..?

    ..i understand they are trying to get out the youth-vote..eh.?..)

    “..Dispensaries In California City Offer Free Marijuana For Those Who Vote..”

    “..Voters who cast a ballot in San Jose’s municipal election on Tuesday –

    could receive free marijuana from the city’s medical marijuana dispensaries.

    All they have to do is present their ‘I Voted’ sticker or a ballot stub –

    to participating dispensaries..”



    (that’d get them out to the ballot-box..eh..?

    ..and one day..eh..?..)

    • tho’..of course..the internet party could achieve those same ‘ends’..

      ..by offering pot…not free..and with a slight delay..

      ..by having a sane/sensible colorado-model of decriminalisation/regulation/taxation..

      ..that will also get large numbers of those young-voters motivated to go and cast their vote..

      ..that..and free education to teriary-level..would be a very powerful two-fer..

      ..i do hope they have the courage/foresight to see this..

      ..to tap into that pot-populist vein..

      • phillip ure 3.1.1

        ..but to really get out the vote..for the internet party..

        ..the party could go with the uraguay-model..

        ..govt’ grown/supplied pot @ $2 gram..?

        ..they could crank that price up to $5..to the same ends..

        ..selling it as removing crime from the pot-trade in one fell swoop..

        ..and also for the economic-stimulation/employment created by the govt taking on that role..

        ..and the dsir has already developed killer-strains/growing methods for pot..

        .they are ready to go..

        ..the internet party could come out with that policy..

        ..and then stand well back from the ballot-box..

        ..to avoid being knocked over in the rush of voters of all ages running to cast their vote for such a sane/logical-policy/solution..

        • phillip ure

          and of course..a black/ironic-twist on all this…

          ..is that john key already knows how ending prohibition ‘works’..

          ..his holiday-compound is in a place where his local pot-shop is just down the road..

          ..journalists should quizz him on the social-chaos/anarchy he has noticed when holidaying at his holiday compound..

          ..surrounded as he is..by legal-pot..

          ..he should be asked..because he has that hands-on/frontline-experience..eh..?

          ..he will be able to tell us how horrible it actually is..

          ..how new zealand would be ruined if we did the same thing..

          ..(i’m actually surprised he can still bring himself to go there..year after year..

          ..and he takes his family..?..!!

          ..into such clear and present danger..?

          ..what is he thinking..?..)

          ..journalists need to quizz key on this..

    • Clemgeopin 3.2

      More fun if they get these dopes plastered with drugs and shit before they cast their vote rather than after.

  4. cricklewood 4

    “Ngati Kahungunu authority chair Ngahiwi Tomoana said the move would diminish iwi fisheries settlement by between 20 and 30 percent.
    He said the new rules would damage Maori economies and was a modern breach of the Treaty of Waitangi.”

    Stopping slave labour is a breach of the treaty? The value of the settlement was calculated on the basis that slave labour would harvest the fish?

    I cant understand why the supposed leaders of some of the most disadvantaged members of society are happy enough to utilize slave labour…

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      From colonised to coloniser in 100 years.

      • marty mars 4.1.1

        Nice – your pithy 1 liner.

        Are you talking about this particular person and his ancestors or about the ethnicity of those who are Māori?

    • Foreign Waka 4.2

      Is this not the premise of all the Tribes? Sealord is using Thailand as a production base. What does that tell you? Where are the economic advantages for the average Maori? The same is actually true for most pacific people as their power structures are build along king and kin ship. The Europeans do once more mistake their ideal for everyone’s and stay aghast at poverty levels that seem to be completely OK with Maori people in power. Either NZlanders are blind or so engrossed in political correctness that they actually cannot see the woods for the trees.

      • marty mars 4.2.1

        “The Europeans do once more mistake their ideal for everyone’s and stay aghast at poverty levels that seem to be completely OK with Maori people in power.”

        I suppose there are sociopaths amongst Māori as there are within any group, and the usual percentage of selfish, greedy, and immoral people. Some Māori leaders do believe in the right-wing approach to anything and everything – they are imo as misguided as all the supporters of the gnats and their cronies.

        I cannot stand any slave fishing and would stop it asap if I had my way. I’d also do more and dismantle the systems that bought slave fishing into being – this issue didn’t just fall from the sky – it was manufactured as in a result of historical and contemporary decisions. The minimum is to stop the abuse of people involved and then dig into why it has occurred at all. I don’t see Iwi and certain Iwi leaders taking all the blame for that.

        • cricklewood

          The slavery is abhorrent and I agree Iwi cant take all the blame I am sure it was going on pre settlement. But to then complain when it comes to public attention when it is stopped is as bad if not worse than knowingly hiring slaves ships in the first place.
          Under no circumstances should Nz fish stock caught under our Quota rules be caught by slave labour.
          If its then uneconomic id suggest the fish are best left in the sea and the settlements re visited.

        • Draco T Bastard

          I’d also do more and dismantle the systems that bought slave fishing into being – this issue didn’t just fall from the sky – it was manufactured as in a result of historical and contemporary decisions.

          The system that brought it into being is called capitalism.

        • Foreign Waka

          I think you missed my point, the approach in which any use of resource and resulting production is taking place will not change due the inherent structure within Maoridom and for that matter most if not all pacific people. Everybody outside this political correct cycle knows that but no one wants to talk about the obvious elephant in the room. No skin of my nose but NZ will be worse off as this counters the labor laws and standard of living conditions so many are trying to address with very little success. Surely the question as to why after so much money has been and is spent must have crossed more than outsiders minds.

          Slavery is the result of how people in power assign social stratification. This has been the case for as long as humanity exists. Look at India where there are many levels with the Dalits are the “untouchable” at the very bottom of the scale. I am not saying that this is bound by race or nationality, in the same way as evil is not wearing a flag. It is easy with that social assignment attitude to have a section of people working and living as slaves.
          What I like to express however is that Maori should stop pretending and have all people equally participating in the economic base that some have created. We are talking about multimillion dollar businesses created with settlement money that was meant to benefit all. If that is done, unemployment will be a lot lower and slave labor will not be necessary to produce, export and secure a future for Maori on a whole.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3

      Fisheries bill a Treaty breach – iwi

      Well, I suppose then that we will just have to let them continue – and then book them for slavery.

      • swordfish 4.3.1


        Good to see people here being prepared to take an objective and critical approach towards Corporate Iwi. Unfortunately, there’s still a section of the Left that – on the basis of past injustice and present inequality – continue to hold a highly romanticised and protective attitude to a really quite Right-Wing, Neo-Liberal, money-grubbing Maori elite.

        Need to stick to basic Social Democratic principles and call a reactionary “a reactionary” regardless of ethnicity. Possible to be both Left-Wing (on the economic spectrum) and liberal/progressive (on the moral/social spectrum) without being horribly, cloyingly politically correct. Just apply those principles of social justice honestly and without fear or favour.

        • Colonial Viper

          The colonised quickly learn to become colonisers.

        • greywarbler

          Straight talking about the lack of Maori fishing places. Maori could have been demanding at seeing that their young chaps, and women if wanted, had gone through enough fishing courses perhaps in groups from different hapu at the same time, as many felt uncomfortable when training, often living away from home as strangers, fish out of water.

          It was just getting things started and keeping them going, that was needed. And making a place for them when they were trained. Once the system was settled, it would have become easier, and the eager young fellows would have set off with the knowledge that they would get skills and get started in life. A cost level would have been established, with an industry open to them which was the expectation of the country. Business mentors would have been needed as it was a much bigger task than the usual individual fishermen would have ever known. One Maori fishing entity I think in the North Island went down. I have forgotten where. So it wasn’t a walk in the park.to get quota and start fishing on a larger scale.

          But with the successful ones, management and profit started off and continued on the easy way of hiring foreign crew and charters. And they were not even reasonably paid. Bad conditions, the poor being done over once again. And NZ employment opportunity lost.

          • Draco T Bastard

            It was just getting things started and keeping them going, that was needed.

            There were Māori that had the boats and loans all lined up and rearing to go – then the corporate elite within Māoridom hired Foreign Charter Vessels instead. Go figure.

    • Murray Olsen 4.4

      As far as I’m concerned, the leaders of any business/authority that uses slave labour should be facing trial. This would include pakeha business people who use slave labour to manufacture goods in the 3rd world.

      • Colonial Viper 4.4.1

        And in the US…prison labour = slave labour

        More black slaves in US prisons now than black slaves full stop at the height of Jim Crow

      • Draco T Bastard 4.4.2

        Yep. Two things really need to be done:
        1.) A complete ban on importing all products from a business that uses slave labour including sweatshops
        2.) Any business in NZ that uses slave labour, including sweatshops, gets done for slavery – including the shareholders

      • Foreign Waka 4.4.3

        Absolutely. We all know who they are and I for one do not buy any of their stuff. The faulty logic of ” it will be the low paid labor that suffers” does not wash as they suffer either way.

  5. xtasy 5

    We are presently having a lot of discussion on political strategies, likely results, representation, numbers, and who may stand where and for what party, but policy is only trickling out bit by bit.

    The Greens surprised with one policy extending free GP visits to teenagers up to 17 or 18 years of age. Today we can expect more policy from them.

    As usual social security or “welfare” are neglected or not even discussed. NO party has considered throwing the introduction of a universal basic income (UBI) or other new policies into the debate in this election year, and there is damned little for those dependent on benefits, to decide who to vote for. Of course some will say that there are many only on benefits for temporary periods, which is true, but there are those too sick, injured and disabled to work, who are now increasingly re-assessed under completely new approaches and criteria, and many will have work test obligations put on them, rightly or wrongly.

    We heard a lot about Mansel Aylward and other UK “experts” they got here to give MSD and the government the supposed “scientific” justification to press ahead with ushering or pushing sick and disabled into part time or even full time work, and we heard about what WINZ’s Principal Health Advisor Dr Bratt stands for, who likens benefit dependence to “drug dependence”.

    Once again I would like to challenge all opposition parties, what their position is on this, and ask whether they will offer fairer criteria, approaches and measures, that actually also hold employers responsible to deliver, and that put real resources into treatment and support, where it is needed, rather than have GPs mass medicate mentally ill with more medication and little else. We cannot allow MSD and WINZ apply such measures to the most vulnerable that are highly questionable, unjust and draconian, and lack proper scientific proof.

    Learn more about what is now coming to WINZ clients as part of the newest phase in the implementation of welfare reforms:

    What works and what doesn’t: How a job affects mental health
    Friday 7th March 2014, ‘The Wireless’:

    More to study on this:



    I hear damned little from Labour and even the Greens and other parties on this, and I recently was a bit shocked, how one opposition MP, who is supposed to be informed about this stuff, knows so damned little about what is going on.

    Are about 300,000 on benefits a fringe group not worth delivering good, fair and sound policy, that will actually give any of them any incentive to vote?

  6. q & a..what a bag of bollocks…eh..?

    ..miller made his judgement-call on the internet party list..before that list exists..?..!..whoar..!..he must have e.s.p.

    ..pagani simpered that she is ‘an incrementalist’..

    ..and hoots played the ‘they-are-all-so-old!’-meme the right has been flogging this week..

    ..and the compere gave one of her worst interviewer-performances..ever..

    ..(and that’s saying something..)

    ..harre was a star tho’..

    ..and norman did ok..

    ..the interview-subjects were a wood-sandwich..

    ..wholemeal toast on both sides..

    ..and cunnliffe a slab of wood in the middle..

    ..compared to norman and harre..

    ..he really put that ‘wood’ in ‘wooden’..

    ..and wow..!..a historical-piece..!

    ..duncan garner before he ate all those pies..

  7. David H 7

    Watching Q+A this morning, hell the Right are shitting them selves, judging by all the attacks on the Internet Party, by their ‘expert’ panel of Pagani and Hooton, and Hooton is in fine form, spouting horseshit all over the place and Pagani was just full of it.

    • Paul 7.1

      There is clearly an attempt being made to stifle the party at birth.

      • idlegus 7.1.1

        but the good thing is ppl like hooton are preaching to the converted, i doubt anyone but the most serious wingnuts take anything said by hooton with a grain of right biased salt. also, any internet party voters wouldn’t listen to hooton coz he’s so ooooooooolllllllllldddddddddddd! infact, i can’t see the right coming up with any useful attack strategy against the internet party coz the youth don’t care for the wisdom of armstrong, gower, susan wood etc…exciting times!

          • veutoviper

            Exactly, Paul. To let people know a bit more, the link leads to an article about Dotcom replying to a tweet last night from the Hunger Drive team rin Auckland unning a 40 hour gaming marathon to raise money for World Vision. He not only replied but turned up and played for 5 hours.

            On a whim, organiser Jay Adams sent a tweet out to Kim Dotcom, a former world champion of Call of Duty, inviting him to come and join them at their gaming headquarters on the North Shore.
            “He tweeted back and said he’d come down once he had put his kids to bed.
            “He just arrived here and sat down and played with us,” Mr Adams said.
            Mr Adams said Mr Dotcom arrived around 10pm and stayed for five hours. Mr Dotcom matched all the donations to World Vision for an hour, and to generate donations invited the three highest donors to attend a gaming night at the Dotcom mansion.
            After 24-hours of gaming the team are taking turns having a break and sleeping, but were thrilled to have Mr Dotcom as part of their mission, Mr Adams said.
            Mr Adams said he was amazed that a tweet would get him along to the event
            “We just thought he might retweet us and get the word out,” Mr Adams said.

            • Chooky

              very impressive…he seems like a thoroughly likable genuine guy!

            • Tracey

              And so he now has appeal amongst gamers, most of whom are voting age, and he got to do something he loved…

              • veutoviper

                I believe he has participated in quite a number of public gaming events in Auckland over the last few years, so it is probable that he already has appeal to that sector. But good on him for turning up, considering the things he has had going on over the last few weeks.

                • Tracey

                  Agree. Wasnt criticising him, but i bet the demographic of young gamers has a bunch on non voters.

                  • Pasupial


                    I bet the demographic of young gamers HAD a bunch on non voters.

                  • Disraeli Gladstone

                    God, you lot treat young people as if they’re simple-minded cattle. All I’ve seen for the last week is “yes, they’re young and play video games and like iPods and Macbooks so they’re obviously going to vote because Dotcom is big into games and technology like them. That’s what going to connect to them and get them to vote: technology.”

                    If you sit down and have grown-up discussion with young people, you find they’re not that different to the rest of us. Except maybe not so stuck in their ways. Some will vote on personality. Some will vote on policy. Some on self-interest. Some on community interest.

                    But hell, let’s just buy into the mythical gamer vote. At least that’ll be mildly amusing to watch the media try to discuss.

                    • Tracey

                      Oh for fucks sake gladstone, we were specifically discussing just the gamer group at this particular event and that now some of them who wrrent going to vote, might. Thats all.

                      You are the one seeing everyone say all young people ar just gaming ipod carriers, whether everyone is saying it or not.

                      They are focusing on young voters, they have said that, i doubt they will be assuming they are all gamers.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Lots of people over 30 years of age game. Just sayin’.

                    • Tracey

                      @ cv absolutely. Dotcom for example 😉

                    • Foreign Waka

                      As long as they vote all is dandy.

          • idlegus

            ha! beat that old man hooton.

            • Paul

              “Mr Adams said Mr Dotcom arrived around 10pm and stayed for five hours. Mr Dotcom matched all the donations to World Vision for an hour, and to generate donations invited the three highest donors to attend a gaming night at the Dotcom mansion.”

          • Bearded Git

            Methinks KDC smart political operator.

            • bad12

              i doubt tho BG that DotCom seen the ‘political’ in turning up to such an event, the bloke is obviously hooked on playing such games, internet poker had me for a while, and, playing is probably His stress release,

              i would say He might see the ”press” he got later and connect the political, i am hoping that InternetMana make use of DotCom in any television advertising they do,

              Something humorous and quirky with DotCom fronting it would go down a treat in parts of the electorate, accentuating the blokes size in comparison with Hone and Laila works for me on one level as well,

              A good lampoon would be to have Him appear in an ad dressed in a blanket and hippy beads saying in His best accent ”some people like the PM say i am buying influence with blankets and beads, but that’s wrong i need all mine”, everyone who doesn’t hate the bloke would immediately sit up going ”WTF”, cut that with a rap scratch across the background music and zoom in on Laila or Hone for the message/soundbite,

              For visual ads DotCom is actually an asset for the type of people they want to reach…

        • Gosman

          Matthew Hooton wasn’t trying to appeal to potential voters of the Internet Party. He was stating that having a bunch of old political fossils like Corkery and Harre won’t likely connect with them.

          • North

            Crap Gooseman. You know it what is more. In the commentary immediately following Laila Harre’s Q+A wiping of the studio floor with that dull thing Susan Wood all Hooton could do was to mock the clear winner. To salve Wood in her embarrassment and to distract from the excellence of Harre’s performance.

            Hooton’s cue was Wood’s immediately posed, inane, dreadfully irrelevant, gutless question – “Well Matthew……..changed your vote ?” It was a cry for help from a just holding it together, bloodied Wood. Directed to the pathologically narcissistic ponce Matthew Dear who dutifully obliged.

            It was Wood and Hooton and Pagani and Miller who painted themselves the fossils in fact. Entitled dicks who thought they were gonna send Laila packing. All cashed up on day one. Hah ! Quite the reverse occurred. Their fantastical sense of themselves as authoritative ‘as-of-right’ political framers in tatters before their eyes. Well done Laila……..you denuded them. For that performance alone and that result alone, I’m delighted you’re placed where you are.

            However, expect the attacks to become more visceral Laila. You’re just not allowed to do that shit to these people. Don’t ya know the acceptable order of things ?

            Gooseman shitting all over the show above is an early pathetic example.

    • Tautoko Viper 7.2

      The funny thing about using Q & A to put across the idea that the Internet Party are all so old is that absolutely NO young people will be watching the programme. They will mostly still be in bed. Most young people watch very little TV and read very few newspapers.

      • idlegus 7.2.1

        more planking pics of john key soon maybe? “i’m down with the kids” !

      • Draco T Bastard 7.2.2

        Most young people watch very little TV and read very few newspapers.

        Which is all to the good.

    • Skinny 7.3

      If Pagani was at all representing the Left she would have refuted the fabricated snake oil Hooton was spinning. Bobbling her head about agreeing with Hooton would have earned her lunch on Ponsonby road, with Matthews picking up the tab. Didn’t he look so
      smitten with her carrying on like his cheerleader. What a disgraceful display of ill discipline.

      • KJT 7.3.1

        Just read one of Hooton’s editorials in NBR, the magazine, which, like Fox news, leaves readers/viewers less well informed than before.

        “”Inequality” is the new “communist” manifesto” FFS.

        Before anyone is concerned for my sanity,
        I did not buy his Neo-Liberalness’s ” propaganda rag, it was in a coffee shop.

        Does he truly believe, his own crap.

        • Paul

          No he doesn’t. He does it for money.
          The self for Hooton comes before society.

      • Gosman 7.3.2

        How would you have refuted him?

    • bad12 7.4

      What got me about the little Q+A farce this morning was Pagani’s ”David Cunliffe should do an immediate deal with National to Legislate the ‘coat-tail’ out of existence”,

      Not only fearful but what i would term ‘the knee-jerk fascism of the middle class’ pouring off of Pagani this morning,

      What does She fear, the loss of the political pandering from both Labour and National to that middle class if InternetMana are successful in pulling 3-4% of the vote off of the fence without the Green vote slipping…

      • James Thrace 7.4.1

        bad12 – responding to your post yesterday about Stevia. Glad you managed to source some quite quickly. It’s not a cheap product so growing it at home does help. Downside of growing it at home is you need several thousand plants to sustain your requirements for a year!

        The body is fine without sugar. It makes none, requires none. There is a new food fad that is starting in America called the 0 Sugar Diet which makes the fallacious claim “your body needs 0% sugar” which while in itself is theoretically true if by sugar, they mean the white death, but the lack of education and knowledge around the different types of sugar mean that people will be just as uninformed about the difference between white death and other more beneficial sugars as those produce by fruits.

        The brain needs glucose. In fact, it’s the number one consumer of glucose in the body. Whether the glucose comes from natural products (fruit, plants) or combined foods its generally provided over a longer period than the boom/bust that white death offers.

        So I don’t think what you’re saying wrt the body and it’s response to the sweetness is entirely accurate. If you’re having stevia in your tea/coffee and having rolled oats at the same time the net effect on the body is largely the same. If it’s just on its own, the empty calories argument comes in but why would anyone just want to eat a spoonful of stevia, even if just to make the medicine go down? So a real world application probably wouldn’t suffice. The anti stevia website makes a number of incorrect assumptions about stevia such as the primer response by the body receiving the sweet taste and dumping the glucose – whatever you’re eating will also contain glucose so the argument is void.

        The sugar lobby and the subsquent classifications of Stevia by the FDA in the USA is an interesting argument. Stevia has been well used for thousands of years, and sugar has really only been around as a manufactured product for about 200 years. Sugar Cane as a plant is still perfectly fine to use as the raw product has a low GI – compared to the manufactured product.

        There are readily available alternatives to sugar, but the sugar cartel (nestle, coke and unilever) will do whatever they can to retain their stranglehold on white death as the viable alternatives of coconut sugar and stevia will cause them to lose their dominance – until the point is reached at which between the three of them their ownership of coconut sugar/stevia manufacturing processes is viable enough to replace white death in their products, at which point Sugar will probably be all but gone.

        • lprent

          The brain needs glucose. In fact, it’s the number one consumer of glucose in the body.

          I can testify to that. If I don’t program, then my required carbohydrate levels (including sugars) drop dramatically. My gut increases to compensate.

          If I don’t get enough carbs whilst turboing my brain on code (or history or politics), then I start wandering in wee circles with about as much intellectual power as a 386. Unfortunately it doesn’t use the stored energy from fat vary fast.

          I call it the programmers dilemma… Think a lot to soak up carbs, or drop carbs like a brick when you don’t. Either way is tricky.

        • bad12

          James Thrace, that’s a brief reply to my Saturday efforts, where would i begin to reply, perhaps just shutting it would be more wise,

          Firstly, it is not i that ”said” with regards Stevia that ”the body prepares for sugar and glucose is cleared from the bloodstream etc etc”, that quote is either from the links provided or a link that i did not provide,

          You ”know” this to not true, how???, because you thunk it or you are privy to some science or other information that you are shy to link us to???,

          Sugar is sugar is sugar, it is pretty much all the same no matter where it is derived from, fruit,vege,sugar cane, it all ends up as glucose, the difference is that the body processes the various sugars at differing speeds and some people deem sugar derived from fruit and vege as ”better” simply on the basis that it comes from those sources, i would suggest tho that to say that the body ”needs” no sugar isn’t correct,

          However, if you have a rampant Hba1C reading which was my case a number of months ago then the imperative is to cut down on the sugar,

          Taking on board, rightly or wrongly, the good sugars/bad sugars argument vis a vis fruit and vege AND absolutely abhorring the consumption of tea/coffee which hasn’t had a semi-trailer load of the sweet stuff added has lead me via a hint from another commenter to Stevia,

          As LPrent points out sugar is energy, and when we use it as a matter of habit the stuff our bodies and brains do not burn through activity our clever,(primitive) metabolisms store away for future use by converting the glucose to fats which may then take up residence in our blood, liver, and arteries, some literature even suggesting that such sugar/fats then go onto form bonds at a DNA level further, for want of a better word, fucking us up,

          By the sound of it your Stevia plant might have caught a cold and snuffed it, they apparently do not take kindly to frost/cold,

          Yes growing 1000,s of Stevia plants alongside my yearly 200 tobacco plants might prove a problem space wise and my tiny little colonials mind has been eyeing up the neighbors jungle for quite some time with a view to a land grab, but grow it i will,

          As for expense, hmmm, the stuff i picked up on my last foraging mission cost $22 delivered, 500 sachets is 6/7 weeks of cuppa’s, previously the sugar bill would probably have hit $15+ for that period of time, doesn’t sound expensive when it is putting both the blood sugar and the lipids measurement in the next blood test where they should be,

          And i get to drink sweet coffees and teas…

          • Colonial Viper

            Sugar is sugar is sugar, it is pretty much all the same no matter where it is derived from, fruit,vege,sugar cane, it all ends up as glucose

            From what I read only around half of ingested fructose (and fructose via sucrose) ends up as glucose in systemic circulation. The rest gets turned into glycogen, lipids for storage, lactate, etc.

      • Skinny 7.4.2

        Any political party promoting free education to New Zealanders can not help but attract votes. I would go further and say those that have a student loan hanging around their necks will have it wiped completely. So for a fledgling Internet Party the 5% threshold should be quite achievable on this policy alone. Add a few more policies that enage the young like a right to own a home and the momentum will snowball to becoming a political force in this Country.

        • karol

          Green Party has a policy for debt free tertiary education, and to work progessively towards free tertiary education as soon as practically possible. Don’t know why people are talking as though the IMP is the only party with such a policy.

      • Anne 7.4.3

        … Pagani’s ”David Cunliffe should do an immediate deal with National to Legislate the ‘coat-tail’ out of existence”,

        The naivety of the statement left me gobsmacked.

        Can you imagine the response he would have got had Cunliffe tried to do such a deal?

        • greywarbler

          Jos Pagani thinks like a bright 12 year old. You hear this sort of thing from the type of children who get picked to go to youth parliaments and come out with naive statements about how to solve the world’s problems.

        • Foreign Waka

          The whole program was anti left wing, including the wannabe reporter remark whilst interviewing Prof Spoonley …. “or whatever the left means by that…..” ?????? what unprofessional remark was that?

        • Tracey

          She says nothing about ms collins defeat of the threshold argument tbo. Pagani is pining for the labour party of 1984 and 1987. She really should have joined national post 2008 if she wants that again.

        • bad12

          Anne, Pagani is a dangerous little reactionary isn’t She, where was She as Colon Craig slapped together the ramshackle Conservatives and then knowing He would never get 5% of the vote turned His puppy begging eyes in National’s direction looking for the gift of a safe seat,

          Her attitude, its not alright for DotCom/Mana/Internet to stitch together a totally transparent deal where everyone knows all the possible ramifications along with where the money is coming from, but, its alright for Cunliffe to ”deal to” the current Democracy behind closed doors with National,

          My view is that it is not a sufficient trade off, the proposed 4% Party Vote v the scrapping of the ability to coat-tail, that simply favors the status quo of parties that are now in the Parliament making it virtually impossible to have new parties emerge,

          2% should be the bottom line…

  8. Chooky 8

    From Martyn Bradbury

    “A brief word on Labour, immigration and what’s really hurting housing”

    ….It’s not immigrants driving up housing prices in Auckland, it’s foreign speculators who are buying up land as quickly as possible. It’s our free market system that allows this mass foreign ownership of residential land that is the problem, not immigration.
    Labour should re-tool this housing debate and move it from immigration to foreign land ownership.


    (imo…mass immigration of non New Zealanders, particularly wealthy ones (exceptions ..not ones like Dotcom of course!) doesnt help the housing market for New Zealanders either…but while Labour should be emphasising foreign speculators buying up NZ land and housing ..it should also bring down the mass numbers of foreign immigrants from single countries)

    • bad12 8.1

      That might be ‘Bomber’s’ honestly held opinion, but, the ”housing problem” is far more complex than just that,

      The real crux of the problem is in the free money those who have poured into rental investments en masse having been sucking out of the tax base as an unintended? enticement,

      20 years ago a little firm of Aussie tax lawyers arrived with this ”legal rort” which allowed those with rental investments to claim ”losses” on the rental investment properties against all other taxable income,

      Along with the real estate agents they then held ”seminars” up and down the country for 3 grand a head where joe and jane public got taught the nuts and bolts of how to do this,

      In the 20 years since 200,000 former homes made the transition into rental properties,

      Sure there is also speculation in both housing and land from both foreign and local speculators, how big this part of the problem is we will not know until Government develop the tools to measure it,

      In amongst all this we had laissez fairre immigration policy where NO PLAN was developed surrounding the numbers coming in or where they would be housed,

      In terms of the countries past population growth it then took the blink of an eye for the population to go from 3.3 million to 4.4 million,(the majority of that growth appearing in Auckland),

      Along with the population growth there appeared the lack of will among the various Governments to construct state housing, at its peak 75.000 homes for a population of 3.3 million, now in the low 60,000’s for a population of 4.4 million,(i doubt we are building enough new State houses yearly to house the 700 odd refugees taken in every year under the UN obligations),

      Housing is a far more complex problem than just the ‘dog whistle’ to the redneck vote about foreign buyers, i would suggest the % of kiwi buyers of investment property far out-weighs the foreign buying by 10 to 1…

  9. veutoviper 9

    I thought this Herald interview with Laila Harre this morning was reasonable for Granny.


    BUT then I read this so-called opinion piece about the interview by Edward Rooney – who I had never heard of before. Seems he is the Herald’s News Editor. Talk about snide and a waste of time and space, if this is the best he can write about.


    • Bearded Git 9.1

      Love the picture with Laila’s son Sam texting/surfing in the background!

    • KJT 9.2

      He’s the news editor. LOL.

    • North 9.3

      Looney Rooney reflects this truism about the Right – when stuffed for anything cogent to say things always gets obfuscated down to “Me, Me, Me”. Like in his article – “Were it not for the efforts of ‘Me, Me, Me’ the interview probably wouldn’t have happened at all – (sotto voce) such a hapless flibbertigibbet is Laila. Nudge nudge……wank wank.”

      If Laila’s a piss-poor scone maker I’m glad she didn’t bother whipping up a batch for the occasion. How do I know she didn’t ? Well…….if she had News Editor Looney Rooney couldn’t have resisted gleefully reporting the shameful fact. As a matter of serious political moment what’s more.

  10. Draco T Bastard 10

    Patent insanity: Royalty fees could reach $120 on a $400 smartphone

    A working paper on smartphone royalties has calculated from a “bottom up” analysis that the potential patent royalties on a hypothetical $400 smartphone could be over $120. This is more than the cost of the components.

    The authors say that the cost of the royalty stack “may be undermining industry profitability and, in turn, diminishing incentives to invest and compete”. This is the opposite of what patent royalties are supposed to do.

    Laws around Intellectual Property have become so convoluted over the last few decades I’m not sure anyone could say what they’re supposed to do any more. Patents are a state enforced monopoly so that the original developers of a product can overcharge for a time. IMO, patents are there to prevent innovation and not increase it and they do this by preventing people from developing competing products.

    • Lanthanide 10.1

      They treat royalty payments as some sort of dead-weight loss. No, the royalty payments go to the companies owning the patents, which in this arena is overwhelming other technology companies whoa are investing and developing cell phones to sell.

      Ultimately this shuts out small players and up-and-comers, which of course limits innovation, but it’s not all doom and gloom like they’re suggesting.

    • Tracey 10.2

      You omit that without patents larfe corps just steal smaller folks inventions and chargw like wounded bulls for them. Eg microsoft

      • KJT 10.2.1

        Actually that is what happens with patents.

        The little fellow invents something, but only the big firms have the money to register and protect patents.

        There are firms in the USA who trawl the world for new inventions and then patent them before the inventor can or will.

        Had that happen with a design I did. Then they threatened me with court if I sold it in the USA.

        I was surprised, actually, that they could patent it because it was based on a lot of prior “art” which was well in the public domain.

        One of the foundations of the USA’s prosperity, after the revolution, is that they refused to recognise British intellectual property. I.E. They stole it. Now they are desperate to prevent China, and other countries, from doing what they did.

        • Draco T Bastard

          There’s been a lot of patents given in the US that shouldn’t have been due to a) prior art and b) that some things just shouldn’t be patented (DNA, living organisms, drugs, etc). On that latter issue maths formula can’t be patented because they’re considered a discovery rather than an invention. This should apply to anything that is dependent upon the natural laws of the universe.

          • TheContrarian

            “This should apply to anything that is dependent upon the natural laws of the universe.”

            Which is everything

            • Colonial Viper


            • Draco T Bastard

              Nope. A molecule is but the process to produce that molecule isn’t.

              • TheContrarian

                Everything in the universe is dependent of the natural laws of the universe.

                Might want to be a little more specific

      • Foreign Waka 10.2.2

        There is that little thing ….if you work for a company and “invent” something, it automatically becomes the property of the company. Try it out you might be surprised….

        • Tracey

          Oh no i get it. In fairness they pay peole for working on stuff that doesnt work or never gets used.

  11. KJT 11

    How the National party started.

    The two conservative parties at the time, joined forces, so they could get enough votes under FPP to get into Parliament.

    From the horses own mouth.

    “It grew out of the coalition government of the Reform and Liberal parties, which had formed the wartime National Government in 1915. The Reform Party had been essentially a rural based party, whereas the Liberals were dominated by city based concerns. These two parties united to form an alternative to the socialist Labour government. The name “National” was chosen as the new party sought to represent all parts of the community”.

    • Tracey 11.1

      Thats different. Next question

    • swordfish 11.2

      That’s a fairly crude rendition by National.

      “It grew out of the coalition government of the Reform and Liberal parties, which had formed the wartime National Government in 1915.”

      Ha Haaaaaa. Methinks the Nats are outrageously downplaying the profound acrimony that existed between the Reform and Liberal Parties from the end of the First World War through to the formation of a Coalition Government in 1931. Throughout the vast majority of that period, the two parties were at loggerheads – hardly surprising given that (with the exception of 1925, when the fledgling Labour Party briefly took 2nd place) Liberal and Reform were the two major parties vying for government (and had been since 1890 – albeit with Reform being a rather loose collection simply called “The Opposition” until the party’s formation in 1909).

      Even with their Coalition in 1931, their activists/supporters/voters often refused to accept it. A whole lot of Independent Liberal and Independent Reform candidates stood and received significant levels of support, in many cases actually winning the seat. Reform was still denouncing the essentially Centrist Liberal Party as “a bunch of Socialists” well into the 20s. The idea that the formation of the National Party represented a smooth, natural evolution from the wartime coalition is laughable.

      It’s also a bit of a myth that Reform was “essentially a rural based party” and the Liberals “city based”. Reform held quite a few Urban seats and the Liberals continued to hold a swathe of Rural seats, especially in the South Island.

      “….united to form an alternative to the socialist Labour government.” Well, no. Actually joined together in coalition in 1931, agreeing not to put up candidates against each other (the independent / unofficial ones not withstanding). So National’s formation in 1936 was really just a formality.

  12. greywarbler 12

    Notes of a couple of interesting pieces on radionz this a.m. Some positive initiatives.

    10:06 Jade Herriman – Repair Cafes
    We live in a throwaway age, where it’s often cheaper to buy a new product than repair old ones. The repair café movement, which started in Holland, is trying to change that. There are now more 400 repair cafes around the world where local residents meet face-to-face with skilled volunteers who show them how to mend everything from clothes to cell phones. Jade Herriman, a researcher at the University of Technology, Sydney, has been looking into the phenomenon.

    10:25 David Katz – Plastic Bank
    The Plastic Bank is turning plastic waste into a currency that can be exchanged to help lift people out of poverty. Founder David Katz talks to Wallace about his plan to help the world’s poor – and clean up the planet.

    • Tracey 12.1

      Problem with plastic banks and recycling plastic is it doesnt stop people using plastic

      Remember when repairing was an option… Remember when companies manufacturing appliances built them to last 30-40 years? Then there was a conscious decision to shorten it to create a turnover every decade and repeat buyers and profit streams… A kind of rort on consumers and the environment.

      • greywarbler 12.1.1

        Let’s start taking steps to improve Tracey. The two items on the radio represent something intelligent and thoughtful being done now. I think we should do something now but I find it hard to change to new ways, and that’s what I and we need to do at the same time as trying to be greener with our waste.

        • Colonial Viper

          Yep – the next generation will need to learn the old skills before they are permanently lost.

  13. greywarbler 13

    I wonder if someone could give me a quick hint on fixing a problem on the page. The list of comments on the right is forced over to the right besides a blank space. It is the same width as the climate graphic public service ad underneath.which on my page has its first number missing so I don’t know whether heating is equivalent to 1 million or 2 million bombs since 1979.

    At the moment however I am thinking of using this little space on the page. Is it something to do with cookies? It hadn’t happened before some weeks ago. (I have some ads blocked as a norm. I have also had a change in font size gone large and resulting page positioning to contend with so perhaps some control has to be reinstated.) If anyone can give me a guide as to where to look it would be good.

  14. Clemgeopin 14

    The Greens have launched a controversial new climate change policy – a carbon tax.

    Co-leader Russel Norman wants to scrap the current carbon pricing system – the Emissions Trading Scheme.

    In its place would be a tax of $25 per tonne of carbon on industry polluters.

    Norman told around 200 delegates at the party’s Upper Hutt conference that in Government, the Greens would aim for carbon neutrality by 2050.

    The Greens are also proposing a Climate Change Commissioner, costing about $2 million. This will be funded by administration savings from scrapping the ETS.

    New Zealand, once a world leader in climate change reduction, is now on track to be ”the worst performing developing country,” he said.

    Critics of the tax claim the tax is a burden on households, who pay higher electricity and fuel costs.

    However, the Greens say their levy would be offset by a ”climate tax cut” on the first $2000 of income.

    ”We can reduce our emissions without hurting household budgets,” he said. ”Households will be on average $319 better off every year under the Green party policy.”

    The revenue from the tax would be $955m per year, which would be used to fund the tax cuts. There would also be room for a company tax cut.

    Agriculture – which is currently exempt from the ETS – would pay a reduced rate of $12.50 per tonne. This works out as an 12.5 per cent hit on farmers’ income. This includes 2 per cent on the working expenses of the average farm. A Berl Economics report, released with the policy, said dairying will be ”adversely affected.”

    But it adds: ”However, at the currently projected pay-out for milk solids, even dairy farms in the lowest decile would remain well above break even in the face of tan emissions levy.”

    Other gas-emitting industries – such as electricity and road fuels – are less likely to be affected because they would be able to ”pass-on any production cost increases to households.”

    Forestry would be credited with $12.50 per tonne, to keep planting trees.

    The levy would also push up the cost of flying – adding around $100 to the cost of return flights to London.

    Australia is moving to dump its contentious carbon tax later this year. But the Greens say their policy would not be unpopular Polling commissioned from UMR Research shows a ”personal tax cut funded by a charge on climate change polluters” would make 32 per cent ”a little more likely” to vote for the party.

    For 44 per cent it would have no impact, and 13 per cent wouldn’t be likely to vote in favour.

    A spokesman for Labour said the party isn’t commenting on the carbon tax proposal.


  15. Weepu's beard 15

    I hear McCully asking for Thailand to bring forward proposed elections, urging them to return to democracy.

    Why does he not ask the same of China?

  16. Draco T Bastard 16

    Amusing. It appears that we still have laws against blasphemy in this country. Wonder when we’re going to get rid of those.

    • karol 16.1

      So, it doesn’t matter what we say about a religion, so long as we say it using “decent language”?

  17. freedom 17

    Anyone have a clue what Labour is doing?
    Do they think they don’t need anyone else?
    The following statement could be from John Key’s desk, but it isn’t, it is from Phil Goff on Facebook

    Phil Goff
    30 May at 17:07 ·

    Internet/Mana Party

    You have to ask the question why a multi-millionaire like Kim Dotcom who supported John Banks as Mayoral candidate for Auckland has made an overnight conversion to the politics of the Mana Party.

    The answer is, in his own interests. Kim Dotcom wants parliamentary representatives to help him oppose his extradition. He has bought access to coat-tailing on the Mana Party’s electorate seat by promising it $3million, some of which will no doubt go in pay for the Internet Party’s new leader.

    Call me old-fashioned but I believe that if it’s wrong for ACT to coat-tail on National’s gift to it of the Epsom seat, why would it be right for Dotcom to do the same with Mana? Of course it’s not. In both cases it is rorting the system which is why Labour will reform the Electoral Act in the way the independent Electoral Commission proposed last year.

    I am also opposed to anyone buying a political party and buying influence by splashing out $3 million as Dotcom proposes. National allowed him to buy permanent residence in New Zealand. Now he thinks he can buy the political system.

    Appointing Laila Harré is a good disguise for why he is putting the money in but most people will see that. As the old saying goes ‘He who pays the piper calls the tune’. Our political system ought not be allowed to become the plaything of the very rich. A good reason why state funding of political parties ought to be considered.

    Meanwhile the best way to put an end to the game is for the people of Te Tai Tokerau to elect Kelvin Davis as their MP. He is by far the best candidate. He is a decent man who has already made a huge contribution in many ways to his community, including in the area education. As he says, in rugby he never played a single game with the intention of losing. He and Labour won’t be laying down for Kim Dotcom, Hone Harawira or Leila Harré this time either.

  18. freedom 18

    Anyone have a clue what Labour is doing?
    Do they think they don’t need anyone else?
    The following statement could be from John Key’s desk, but it isn’t, it is from Phil Goff on Facebook

    Phil Goff
    30 May at 17:07 ·

    Internet/Mana Party

    You have to ask the question why a multi-millionaire like Kim Dotcom who supported John Banks as Mayoral candidate for Auckland has made an overnight conversion to the politics of the Mana Party.

    The answer is, in his own interests. Kim Dotcom wants parliamentary representatives to help him oppose his extradition. He has bought access to coat-tailing on the Mana Party’s electorate seat by promising it $3million, some of which will no doubt go in pay for the Internet Party’s new leader.

    Call me old-fashioned but I believe that if it’s wrong for ACT to coat-tail on National’s gift to it of the Epsom seat, why would it be right for Dotcom to do the same with Mana? Of course it’s not. In both cases it is rorting the system which is why Labour will reform the Electoral Act in the way the independent Electoral Commission proposed last year.

    I am also opposed to anyone buying a political party and buying influence by splashing out $3 million as Dotcom proposes. National allowed him to buy permanent residence in New Zealand. Now he thinks he can buy the political system.

    Appointing Laila Harré is a good disguise for why he is putting the money in but most people will see that. As the old saying goes ‘He who pays the piper calls the tune’. Our political system ought not be allowed to become the plaything of the very rich. A good reason why state funding of political parties ought to be considered.

    Meanwhile the best way to put an end to the game is for the people of Te Tai Tokerau to elect Kelvin Davis as their MP. He is by far the best candidate. He is a decent man who has already made a huge contribution in many ways to his community, including in the area education. As he says, in rugby he never played a single game with the intention of losing. He and Labour won’t be laying down for Kim Dotcom, Hone Harawira or Leila Harré this time either.

    • North 18.1

      How more wilfully deceitful can Phil Goff get with his risible Facebook claim/appeal to a ‘lost-30-years-ago’, now fictitious, Labour tribalism ?

      Taken from the last paragraph of Freedom’s comment above (the edits are mine) Freedom quotes Phil Goff –

      ” Meanwhile the best way……is for……Te Tai Tokerau to elect Kelvin Davis as their MP…… ”

      ” As he [Davis] says, in rugby he never played a single game with the intention of losing. ”

      Prior to Te Tai Tokerau by-election I figured that it would be disastrous for the North were the result to deliver one less Maori MP to Parliament. From where this Pakeha was then and is still placed, viz. in a job where daily I observe the cruelly abject position of Maori, joining Mana and helping in the campaign became personal imperatives.

      Hone Harawira’s deserved win put paid to that disastrous potential. Phil Goff and Kelvin Davis still want to achieve it. In the present context – ” Hear Ye Hear Ye Hear Ye – one Maori MP in the North is better than two ! ”

      Makes me sympathise with those on TS who claim that Labour positively fears The Left……that it has not the balls to be a government other than one of the ShonKey Python Lite variety and to hell with the poorest.

      While I’m here – the other thing that’s pissing me off mightily – for all money Goff and Davis come across like snotty two-bob-snobs, self-indulgently stuck in an FPP time warp and lauding themselves honourable for it. In an election where the ‘less-is-more’ equation – (Mmmm……ain’t that the lie of neoliberalism ?) – could so easily impact the whole country so disastrously in our social and damn near every other fabric.

      My Left tribalism rises up and calls that ugly on no less a scale than Douglas, Prebble and Bassett. The difference less hubris would make to Goff and Davis personally ? None. Goff”s well placed for sinecures well into his dotage whatever happens. Davis’ll make Parliament on the Labour list, whatever happens. Again, to hell with the poorest. Those who REALLY suffer.” We’re alright (in our personal ambitions) Jack. Cool bananas ! ”

      Is there any reason to believe that Internet/Mana never having happened their pose would be any different ? None that I can see. Enough of the KDC-calling smokescreen bullshit then !

  19. freedom 19

    Anyone have a clue what Labour is doing?
    Do they think they don’t need anyone else?
    The following statement could be from John Key’s desk, but it isn’t, it is from Phil Goff on Facebook

    Phil Goff
    30 May at 17:07 ·

    Internet/Mana Party

    You have to ask the question why a multi-millionaire like Kim Dotcom who supported John Banks as Mayoral candidate for Auckland has made an overnight conversion to the politics of the Mana Party.

    The answer is, in his own interests. Kim Dotcom wants parliamentary representatives to help him oppose his extradition. He has bought access to coat-tailing on the Mana Party’s electorate seat by promising it $3million, some of which will no doubt go in pay for the Internet Party’s new leader.

    Call me old-fashioned but I believe that if it’s wrong for ACT to coat-tail on National’s gift to it of the Epsom seat, why would it be right for Dotcom to do the same with Mana? Of course it’s not. In both cases it is rorting the system which is why Labour will reform the Electoral Act in the way the independent Electoral Commission proposed last year.

    I am also opposed to anyone buying a political party and buying influence by splashing out $3 million as Dotcom proposes. National allowed him to buy permanent residence in New Zealand. Now he thinks he can buy the political system.

    Appointing Laila Harré is a good disguise for why he is putting the money in but most people will see that. As the old saying goes ‘He who pays the piper calls the tune’. Our political system ought not be allowed to become the plaything of the very rich. A good reason why state funding of political parties ought to be considered.

    Meanwhile the best way to put an end to the game is for the people of Te Tai Tokerau to elect Kelvin Davis as their MP. He is by far the best candidate. He is a decent man who has already made a huge contribution in many ways to his community, including in the area education. As he says, in rugby he never played a single game with the intention of losing. He and Labour won’t be laying down for Kim Dotcom, Hone Harawira or Leila Harré this time either.

  20. freedom 20


  21. geoff 21

    Fantastic comment on gordon campbell’s blog, from a chap called Dave McArthur. Here it is in all it’s glory:

    You make good observations, Gordon, and I appreciate your upfront honesty. However I am sorry – so much of this article is meaningless to me. Mind you, I now find nearly all our media commentary unhelpful. Voting has become an increasingly meaningless exercise for me and I no longer feel able to able to communicate with my own generation – the Baby Boomers. The alienation that young people experience must be incomparably worse. In the context of our profoundly corrupt country, the emergence of the Internet-Mana provides me a glimmer of hope that a meaningful conversation can happen.
    Central to our malaise is the ethos of the modern corporation, which is the pure manifestation of the elements of psychosis and psychopathy that reside in us all. It now shapes and corrodes all our institutions, including our education/media/communication systems. It enables the systemic erosion of our civil rights and converts us into commodities. It promotes mass delusions with the associated, ingenious denial of our abuse of water, air, soil, minerals –especially fossilised biomass. It works to fragment and privatise our individual and collective intelligence using unprecedented surveillance, insane copyright and “commercial sensitivity” laws, mass migration and the general perversion of knowledge.
    All our existing main media and political parties are profoundly complicit and all propagate the corporate language on scale.
    None speak of extending GST to our two dominant activities – currency and property speculation.
    All endorse our fatally flawed National Education Curriculum Framework and destroy the state of science in our communities.
    The unprecedented migration flux this century means that over half of NZers lack experience and vital institutional memory of our history pre 1990.
    Not one political party, Government agency or NGO has the integrity to identify and articulate the vast array of deceits and hidden subsidies promoting the conversion of the amazing wealth potential of mineral oil/gas into pollution. I refer to our use of wasteful mass transit systems involving cars, jets, trucks etc.
    In brief, not one party has been able to speak for our young people and this is the group of people that is primarily funding these vast and unsustainable subsidies. They inherit the costs in the form of massive debt, pollution, probable climate extremes, depleted mineral and soils, and a meaningless voting system.
    Not one party has been able articulate the reality that our electrical systems are primarily intelligence systems and this wealth potential is critical to our survival now that my generation has destroyed most of the cheaply extractable mineral oil/gas on the planet. Instead they have promoted the corporate ethos using mass surveillance, language engineering, Kiwi Saver, the Cullen Fund, the ETS, the “Energy Reforms”, “Environmental Education” and sheer thuggishness. This has enabled our electrical grids to be privatised at their mere nuts-bolts-wires value and converted into debt-generating devices. It is now illegal for a NZ community to own the intelligence of its local electrical potential and practice energy efficiency. This means a powerful elite (Rupert Murdoch, NSA, the Banker Oligarchy et al) fragment and control our intelligence for their own narrow, psychopathic interests.
    We are all victims and at escalating risk because of this unsustainable situation. However by far the worst victims in New Zealand are those subsisting on the medium income or less. Nearly all our young, many of our elderly and a high proportion of our Maori and Polynesian peoples pay the highest price and are in this low income group.
    Kelvin Davis reveals both the scale of Labour’s self-deceit and his low respect for the Te Tai Tokerau people when he condemns Internet-Mana as a “scam”.(Radio NZ)
    Our prominent commentators, especially those who pride themselves on their Internet expertise, reveal their poor grasp of civics and intelligence when they dismiss those of us who take the Internet Mana potential seriously.
    Many of our newer immigrants may quickly change their voting patterns as they glimpse the growing dystopia behind the lies and deceits of our corporate facade. They will realise they have a very dubious future in a dumb, fragmented society. John Key, our multimillionaire, currency-speculator Prime Minister, may suddenly seem far less wise and aspirational.
    Thank you. It is so hard to express sufficient compassion, complexity, urgency, intelligence and hope in so few words.

    The postt from Gordon was good too:

  22. I will use good manners while here.

  23. Draco T Bastard 23

    4 Hard Truths That Will Jolt You Awake

    1) Money is a hoax
    2) Debt is fiction
    3) Media is manipulation
    4) Government is a corporation

  24. lprent 24

    Been having some comments going to spam for no apparent reason. Doing a reboot as first part of the check.

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