Open mike 01/08/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, August 1st, 2014 - 257 comments
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openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

257 comments on “Open mike 01/08/2014 ”

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    • Tiger Mountain 1.1
      1 August 2014 at 7:41 am

      …not much hope

      …that some people will start adding a brief description of what is linked to

      • Colonial Viper 1.1.1
        1 August 2014 at 12:58 pm

        For the Lefties here who are trying to get a grip on the entire context behind what Israel is doing, this talk by Miko Peled, son of very senior, early and highly decorated Israeli General Mattityahu Peled, talks honestly about the founding of Israel and its attitudes and objectives through to the modern day.

        His father, after leaving the Israeli military, became a strong advocate for an independent Palestinian state and also a strong advocate for Palestinians living in Israel to receive equal rights to Jews.

        He also had a 13 year old niece who was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber.

        It is an exceptional and interesting presentation.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

    • Te Reo Putake 1.2
      1 August 2014 at 7:49 am

      Good point, Grumpy. Best the IDF kills all the kids, just in case. They’ve made an excellent start.

      • Harriet 1.2.1
        1 August 2014 at 8:14 am

        The IDF is the most moral millitary force in the history of warfare.

        I’m just repeating it. The British Commander in Afganistan said it. The Israelis use guided missiles at a rate that is far higher than any other millitary, and which is not required under the rules of war. They are also packed with low impact explosives so as to cripple Hamas weapons while minimising civilian casualties.

        Civilian lose of life happens in all wars, through starvation, disease outbreaks, lack of medical care, murder. It is not uncommon. It is the norm.

        That is not happening in Palestine.

        • felix 1.2.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 8:18 am

          …apart from the murdering, of course.

        • mickysavage 1.2.1.3
          1 August 2014 at 8:20 am

          Come on Harriet. We are witnessing genocide. Even the US has now criticised Israel for what it is doing. Israel is killing kids and bombing schools and homes without any appearance of guilt.

          If you had said “less barbaric” then you may have an argument but to use the word “moral” in the same sentence as “IDF” is just wrong.

        • miravox 1.2.1.4
          1 August 2014 at 8:25 am

          “guided missiles”

          Yep – ‘pinpoint accuracy’ they said. If so, bombing schools with civilians, electricity supplies, water supplies, hospitals and market places must be a strategy.

          “… starvation, disease outbreaks, lack of medical care… That is not happening in Palestine.

          Give it another few days Harriet and get back to me on that.

          • Harriet 1.2.1.4.1
            1 August 2014 at 8:49 am

            “……..Yep – ‘pinpoint accuracy’ they said. If so, bombing schools with civilians, electricity supplies, water supplies, hospitals and market places must be a strategy…….”

            Yes of course it is. It is a war.

            “…..A civilian structure loses its protected status when it is used for military purposes. A home that serves as a Hamas command post or hides a tunnel entrance is by definition not a civilian structure any longer. Israel targets such buildings, but does not target structures that are not used for military purposes. A church or a mosque that houses a sniper loses its protected status under the laws of war……”

            • miravox 1.2.1.4.1.1
              1 August 2014 at 8:59 am

              Source? Not the Geneva convention, I suspect. I note your quote doesn’t mention people. All so …. clean and rational /sarc

              “Yes of course it is. It is a war”

              It’s murder of innocents.

              Even the Americans (finally) have said the attack on the UNRWA facility is indefensible

            • Te Reo Putake 1.2.1.4.1.2
              1 August 2014 at 9:02 am

              Oh, wow. You quote zionist writer Jonathan Keiler as if it was gospel or the law. It’s not. It’s just a biased opinion. I think from what I’ve seen so far that Israel is likely to be facing war crimes charges. The Hague would be a great place for the IDF leaders to argue their case, IMHO.

              • grumpy …
                1 August 2014 at 9:30 am

                They (The Hague) have to get through all the Syrian, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Ukraine cases first.

              • North …
                1 August 2014 at 10:32 pm

                It’s not…..in the updated context it’s Naziism. Practised ‘proudly’ what is more obscene. Wheel on Adolf.

            • Shrubbery 1.2.1.4.1.3
              1 August 2014 at 10:05 am

              Ah, so it’s a war, and crimes are taking place, so the whole of the Knesset should be in the Hague on war crimes charges?

            • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.4.1.4
              1 August 2014 at 12:25 pm

              Yes of course it is. It is a war.

              No, it is a massacre of civilians and it is ethnic cleansing.

              BTW people, to be clear, from its very beginnings Israel has seen the entire of the Palestinian territories as theirs and theirs alone, from the Jordan river in the east to the Mediterranean in the west, with no exception.

              The Israelis will never ever give a square mile of illegally occupied and settled land back to the Palestinians, not back to the 1967 borders, not back to the 1947 borders.

              This should help explain Israeli actions over the last 50 years.

            • tricledrown 1.2.1.4.1.5
              1 August 2014 at 10:45 pm

              harriet the Gaza strip is a concentration camp where Palestinian Arabs have been ghettoized in an ethnic cleansing process by Fundamentalist Israeli Jews now Fundamentalist Hamas are the latest version of what happens when you suppress and impoverish another race.
              This war has been going on for more than 2,000 years by religious nut jobs.
              In 1948 the Israeli Jews and the Israeli Arabs agreed to share Israel in peace .
              but immigration by fundamentalist Jews has tipped the balance of power towards the Israeli fundamentalist Jews who continue to inflame and cause radicalization of both Jews and Arabs .
              harriet you are New Zealands fundamentalist fermenter!
              you should go to Gaza and ferment their you would be right at home.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.5
          1 August 2014 at 9:19 am

          Wow, you swallowed all that bullshit?

        • Ennui 1.2.1.6
          1 August 2014 at 11:13 am

          Harriet, and your point is?

        • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.7
          1 August 2014 at 12:17 pm

          Harriet said:

          The IDF is the most moral millitary force in the history of warfare.

          Of course, these words form part of a blatant and ahistoric lie, and is part of the mythology that Israel tries to perpetrate around its military forces.

          Even if there is such a thing as “moral warfare” (gag), the original Israeli military and its leadership was formed from the Jewish/Zionist armed militia groups like the Haganah and Irgun which ethnically cleansed large areas of Palestine 1947-1948, perpetrating multiple massacres of Palestinians and displacing over 700,000 civilians in the process..

          In other words, that brutal ethos and history has been embedded into the Israeli military from its very beginnings.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.7.1
            1 August 2014 at 5:17 pm

            The original Israeli military were outright terrorists. From what I can make out, they haven’t changed any.

        • framu 1.2.1.8
          1 August 2014 at 12:27 pm

          “so as to cripple Hamas weapons while minimising civilian casualties.”

          theyve flattened entire neighbourhoods, bombed schools, bombed homes for disabled, targeted kids, forced people from their homes, – blown the homes up and then blown up the refuges they told them to go to, blown up power stations, crippled water and other infrasturcture – the list goes on!

          your a ghoul of the worst kind – one that attempts to paper over state terrorism by the powerful directed at the weak

          you make me sick

          still – i guess its a good thing the palestinians arent allowed musical instruments

        • greywarbler 1.2.1.9
          1 August 2014 at 5:46 pm

          @ Harriet 8.14
          Your point? This is killing but not as we know it. It is a higher sort of killing, more technically superb, and the people, sorry but it is your karma.

          It doesn’t matter whether karma comes from Jewish or Muslim traditions or Indian or… If your karma is to suffer then you feel the pain no matter what religion.

          Or one can stop blaming everything on fate and look at our wonderful abilities to reason and to analyse complex matters and feel compassion. Shove karma over the cliff. And stop being resigned about other people’s suffering. Whether it is in your good cause or not.
          edited

        • Murray Olsen 1.2.1.10
          2 August 2014 at 1:13 am

          Jesus wept, Harriet. Do you actually believe what you’ve written?

          The IDF deliberately kills civilians. It targets them as part of a terror campaign against the Palestinian people. It is designed to destroy their morale.

          The British Commander in Afghanistan was carrying out a war crime against a people who had been pushed back into the dark ages. What the hell would he know about morality?

          What the hell is a low impact explosive? Do we believe that the US makes warheads with these low impact explosives and stores them for the Israelis for when they get a bit carried away and use them too rapidly? There is in fact such a thing, but if you knew what you were talking about, you’d know why it’s not used in warheads.

          Your last bit about loss of life is just unbelievable rubbish. Palestinians are being murdered. I’m sure there’ll be disease outbreaks soon, because the hospitals are being destroyed.

          Sometimes I despair. Now is one of those times.

    • mickysavage 1.3
      1 August 2014 at 8:02 am

      See what happens when you imprison a nation, take away its citizens’ rights and mercilessly destroy their neighbourhoods and kill their children?

      • Grumpy 1.3.1
        1 August 2014 at 8:07 am

        Must have amazing teacher training scheme. No Broadcasting Standards Authority either? Let alone “hate speech” laws.

        • mickysavage 1.3.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 8:12 am

          Arn’t you even slightly upset at the murder of over 1,400 Palestinians in the past few weeks?

          • grumpy 1.3.1.1.1
            1 August 2014 at 9:16 am

            Of course, it’s just that I hold Hamas to blame completely. Using women and children as “human shields” is despicable, as is showering Israeli civilians with rockets fired from hospitals and schools.
            Every country is entitled to self defence and Hamas has started this war, chosen the battleground and the participants (women and children) in a cynical ploy to involve it’s symathisers in a media driven conflict.
            I missed the concentrated media and left wing outrage at the many orders of magnitude higher death toll perpetrated by Hamas allies on other muslims. Surely that was not because some sectors of society hate Israel so much that anything it’s enemy does can be overlooked?

            • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1.1.1.1
              1 August 2014 at 9:21 am

              Every country is entitled to self defence

              Except, apparently, Palestine.

              • grumpy …
                1 August 2014 at 9:28 am

                No country can attack another with impunity. Showering a neighbour with rockets is an act of war, perpetrated by Palestine on Israel. Israel is quite entitled to take out the Hamas military apparatus.

                • locus …
                  1 August 2014 at 9:48 am

                  But not entitled to murder civilians refugees children and destroy hospitals schools and the peoples only power station which provides the essentials of life. These are grave breaches of the geneva conventions and are war crimes

                  • grumpy …
                    1 August 2014 at 9:55 am

                    Deliberately locating military assets in schools and hospitals are war crimes. Using civilians, including children, as human shields is a war crime.
                    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4542765,00.html

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      1 August 2014 at 12:28 pm

                      Utter bullshit grumpy. Firstly, the rockets only started flying at Israel AFTER Israel launched combat operations unto Gaza.

                      The 4 Palestinian kids killed on the beach by precision munitions – where were the rockets they were hiding?

                      The hotels foreign journalists were staying in – where were the rockets they were hiding?

                      The Palestinian Authority finance ministry which was levelled – where were the rockets they were hiding?

                      The UNRWA schools and refuges which have now been hit multiple times – where were the rockets they were hiding?

                      Seriously mate, fuck you for trying to justify what is now over 300 Palestinian children dead and over 1300 Palestinians killed.

                    • grumpy …
                      1 August 2014 at 1:12 pm

                      CV, you must admit Hamas are a pretty unlovely pack of bastards to find yourself sticking up for. This in NZ Herald today.

                      “As the toll grew, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay accused both Israel and Hamas militants of violating the rules of war.

                      She said Hamas is violating international humanitarian law by “locating rockets within schools and hospitals, or even launching these rockets from densely populated areas.” But she added that this did not absolve Israel from disregarding the same law.”

                      Really, Hamas and their allies ISIS are solely motivated towards the Islamic Caliphate and all unbelievers – including you and me – are to be converted or killed. even if you are the “wrong brand” of muslim, you are doomed.

                      These guys are murderous thugs pure and simple, you do your otherwise normally sound (for a lefty) common sense no credit in trying to defend them.

                    • greywarbler …
                      1 August 2014 at 5:48 pm

                      @ grumpy 9.55
                      Any bloody excuse for killing people. You don’t add anything to this discussion. Why not go outside and build an Andersen shelter. With your lack of peace-making abilities you might need it.

                • The Al1en …
                  1 August 2014 at 10:28 am

                  The idf have a missile defence system in place don’t they, that they claim is almost 100% effective?
                  So in reality, it’s spit balls against against a brick wall, but it gives them the ‘right’ to systematically slaughter hundreds of civilians indiscriminately.

                  • grumpy …
                    1 August 2014 at 11:09 am

                    …all the more insane to start a war with Israel then – eh?

                    • The Al1en …
                      1 August 2014 at 11:14 am

                      All the more barbaric and inhumane to imprison and exterminate palestinians.

                      And of course, let us not forget, the Jews created their state with terrorism.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      1 August 2014 at 12:31 pm

                      …all the more insane to start a war with Israel then – eh?

                      Israel is an apartheid security state.

                      They could not tolerate the Palestinian Authority and Hamas coming together in a peaceful unity Palestinian govt.

                      So they launched this massive military attack against Gaza which is designed to destroy every piece of infrastructure the Palestinians require to live there, on the pretext of 3 kidnapped Israeli teenagers.

                • Ennui …
                  1 August 2014 at 11:41 am

                  Grumpy, did you ever attack the huge school bully (and his even bigger mate) single handed even though he was three times your size and carried a cosh? I suspect you did, because you sound that stupid if you really believe that any lightly armed group would take on the IDF deliberately.

                • Puddleglum …
                  1 August 2014 at 4:18 pm

                  This is a general argument I’ve often heard in the media, blogs, etc. over the past few weeks.

                  It assumes – for the present conflict – that it was started by Hamas rockets. It wasn’t.

                  For better or worse, we have the official Israeli position that it was started by a kidnapping. Whatever Hamas rockets were entering Israel prior to that were obviously not sufficient to provoke the current offensive from Israel.

                  So, the first point is that the claim that this has something to do with Hamas rockets is factually incorrect – unless you want to argue that Israel used the kidnapping as a disingenuous cover for an assault they had already planned to make?

                  The second point concerns the implicit moral claim that Hamas rockets (and their ineffectual strike rate) are a greater provocation to mass violence than is the blockading of Gaza, the routine supersonic flyovers of Gaza over the last few years, the game-playing by Israel over the funds Gaza needs to survive, the predictable increases in illnesses and general deprivation and, most obviously, the frequent bombing of Gaza all of which have been clear causes of many, many Palestinian deaths (over a thousand dead just a couple of years ago in yet another short, sharp assault).

                  In that context, it is very hard to see how this ‘greater provocation’ argument can hold any water at all. Surely, provocations are in part to be judged by their effectiveness at killing, intimidating and oppressing? Israeli actions have achieved these goals to a much greater extent than have Hamas actions. So which side has been most ‘provocative’? (Remember, provocation relates to each action – it is not about ultimate ‘blame’.)

                  Third – and relatedly – it is often claimed that the terror induced by the Hamas rockets should help to explain the Israeli government’s reaction. That is, the question has been posed to critics of Israel ‘How would you like to have rockets raining down on you? Wouldn’t you want to retaliate?’

                  This unreflective plea misses entirely the obvious response in defence of Hamas launching their rockets. That is, ‘How would you feel if your children were dying through lack of sanitation, good nutrition, Israeli bombs, etc. on a regular basis? Wouldn’t you want to retaliate?’

                  In the current conflict, of course, the Israeli bombs (that, it should be remembered, preceded the current increase in Hamas rocket firing as they – the bombs – were a response to a kidnapping) are orders of magnitude more violent and more ‘effective’ than are the Hamas rockets.

                  Given that, Israelis who are suffering under the terror of Hamas rockets should understand entirely how Palestinians suffering under the terror of Israel bombs feel and, therefore, why they wish to fire their rockets. Shouldn’t they? Yet, in fact, they don’t appear to understand.

                  Aren’t both deliberate forms of terror? And isn’t one form of terror clearly far more ‘effective’ at terrorising?

                  Finally, Golda Meir once said “We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”

                  In the context of the disproportionate casualties that have always characterised the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians- and the extremely limited number of Israeli children killed by Hamas rockets – it would be hard to conjure up a more immoral justification for the current mass and indiscriminate killing of children.

                  It’s as if one is somehow ‘forced’ to kill hundreds of children should one child be killed. This can’t be true.

                  Such an overwhelming onslaught also seems like an extraordinarily ineffective way to encourage the Palestinians to love their (dead) children more than they hate Israelis.

                  Killing someone’s child is not usually the best way to make them hate you less.

                  But it is, of course, quite a good example of an act of terrorism.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  1 August 2014 at 5:19 pm

                  Israel is an invasion, by war, of Palestine. If the Jews left Palestine they wouldn’t get bombarded by rockets.

            • locus 1.3.1.1.1.2
              1 August 2014 at 9:29 am

              http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/survivors-massacre-palestinians.html

              Taking over palestinians homes and using them as military posts while the families were still inside. Huh seems the israelis are definitely guilty of what you are trying to lay on hamas

            • miravox 1.3.1.1.1.3
              1 August 2014 at 9:32 am

              What’s your version of how this episode of the ‘war’ between Hamas and Israel started grumpy? Maybe you can start with why Hamas started firing the rockets. I’m thinkng there are about 350 reasons for it (futile as the response may have been). Also a ‘mistaken’ belief that Gaza is the West Bank. But you may have a different view.

              I’m not seeing a lot of evidence that the killing of civilians, especially in UN facilities, involves human shields either.

              • grumpy …
                1 August 2014 at 9:41 am

                What reason could there be for starting a pointless war with the aim of forcing your enemy to inadvertently kill your women and children so your cause can be really waged through the media and “useful idiots”.

                • miravox …
                  1 August 2014 at 9:44 am

                  Why don’t you tell Israel that? Seems to me they were fully prepared to start this one.

                  Even if you’re right, and I don’t concede that for one second, it’s the responsibility of a ‘moral’ army as the IDF likes to call itself, to minimise civilian casualties. The IDF does not do that. At all. In fact they were pretty keen to go on about their ‘pinpoint accuracy’.

                  Still, back to the point… how did Hamas start this war?

                  • grumpy …
                    1 August 2014 at 10:01 am

                    What do you think would happen if the mad Nazi Ukrainian “government” fired a missile at Moscow? Exactly – war!…..and who would have started it?

                    • miravox …
                      1 August 2014 at 10:06 am

                      Still, back to the point… how did Hamas start this war?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      1 August 2014 at 12:38 pm

                      What do you think would happen if the mad Nazi Ukrainian “government” fired a missile at Moscow? Exactly – war!…..and who would have started it?

                      More fucking bullshit Grumpy, Ukranian artillery has already landed on Russian soil, causing the death of at least 1 Russian civilian. The Russians know how to play it cool.

                    • grumpy …
                      1 August 2014 at 1:15 pm

                      The Russians know more than anyone how to play it cool and are refusing to respond to the most outrageous provocation. My sympathies are with Russia in this dispute – surprise you?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      1 August 2014 at 2:52 pm

                      Mildly surprised. You are a flexible and observant thinker in many ways. There is a further parallel – US EU and NATO pouring on the pressure with Russia has only accelerated BRICS moves away from the US dollar and western financial investments, and is already causing blowback on European economies.

                      Just as Israel’s continuing action in Gaza is weakening Israel etc for the long term, and threatening its continuing existence as a liberal, democratic state.

                    • grumpy …
                      1 August 2014 at 3:20 pm

                      CV, I am certain that the Ukraine crisis is of real importance to the future of the world with the superpowers lining up in a stupid pissing contest led by the US.
                      The Israel/Hamas conflict is one (and I am sure you will disagree) that we need to have if the spread of fundamental Islam is to be checked. Without that, all liberal thought on this planet is threatened.
                      I have submitted a “guest Post” to this august journal on Ukraine (or rather a Russian mate’s “guest Post”….I hope it makes it through selection as those directly involved in the neighbouring countries see it much more clearly.
                      I think Israel is running a risk but I doubt they feel they have any choice.

                • locus …
                  1 August 2014 at 10:03 am

                  The point of the useless israeli war against defenseless families was i believe “to mow the grass”. Seriously the israelis are utterly unconcerned about about the pathetic fireworks that hamas shoots off. The israeli hawks have been planning this murdering spree on gazans for a long time

                  • grumpy …
                    1 August 2014 at 10:10 am

                    Speaking of “mowing the grass”, it’s always good to look at someone’s friends to get a glimpse into their character. In this case, Hamas’ BFF ISIS.
                    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/there_is_no_root_cause_to_talk_about_with_animals_like_these/

                    You were saying…..?

                    • locus …
                      1 August 2014 at 10:18 am

                      So are all the murdered palestinians best friends with isis. Are the children guilty because their second cousin three times removed is a member of hamas? Utter diversion and a complete lack of humanity grumpy

                    • grumpy …
                      1 August 2014 at 11:08 am

                      No, the Palestinians actually chose Hamas as their governing body. They knew what they were getting.
                      Haven’t you heard – even on the kids programmes – the Palestinians “love” jihad?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      1 August 2014 at 3:01 pm

                      No, the Palestinians actually chose Hamas as their governing body. They knew what they were getting.

                      That happened after years of Israeli weakening of the Palestinian authority. So your comment “they knew what they were getting” applies exactly to the Israelis as well.

                      But more recently Hamas and the Palestinian authority entered into a unity government agreement. There was absolutely no way that Israel was going to give the Palestinians a chance to become politically stronger, and to present a united front in terms of future international negotiations.

                      Hence the destruction being wrought upon Gaza today.

              • Clemgeopin …
                1 August 2014 at 12:22 pm

                I think the immediate cause of this particular heinous war was the kidnapping, killing and dumping of the bodies of three Israelis innocent students by Palestinian extremists.
                How that terrible and evil incidence has descended into this cruel war is so shocking and heart wrenching.
                I wish that at that initial time the Hamas should have condemned those murders, arrested the perpetrators and either prosecuted them in Palestine or handed them to Israel for prosecution. Sadly, that did not happen.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  1 August 2014 at 12:41 pm

                  The kidnapping was not the cause of this war, it was the pretext. Utterly different.

                  And it should have been handled as the criminal/law enforcement affair that it was, not as the reason to unload several thousand tonnes of heavy ordinance on to Gaza.

                  Of course as I already said, it was used as the pretext.

                  • Clemgeopin …
                    1 August 2014 at 7:06 pm

                    You don’t know that. It is your best guess. The fog of war.

                    I take no sides. In am appalled and saddened by the loss of innocent lives and misery experienced by the ordinary people, children and property in Palestine. But they seem have an appalling stupid extremist obdurate uncompromising leadership consumed by hate and politics. Where there is hate, in both Palestine and Israel, solutions are very difficult. This hate is now passed on to more and more people, including little children. Peace, friendship, independence, co existence seems a very long way off. It is easy to pontificate on blogs and comments, but the reality and solution is very dire.

                    The UN, EU, ME, China, Russia and USA should enforce a solution on Israel and Palestine. But how?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      1 August 2014 at 7:41 pm

                      ?

                      Your comment makes no sense. The Israelis have used the kidnapping as a pretext to destroy the new Palestinian unity government and to work toward everything they want.

                      Btw peace, friendship and co-existence with the Palestinians is not on the Israeli agenda. And it hasnt been for 60 years.

                • miravox …
                  1 August 2014 at 6:41 pm

                  Where was the kidnapping Clemgeopin? Gaza?

                  No, it was the West Bank. Why do you think Israel is bombing Gazan civilians for the kidnappings and murders on the West Bank? Why not take out retribution for that appaling crime there? The Palestinian Authority runs the West Bank, not Hamas, if the perpetrators are from the West Bank Hamas has no jurisdiction there. Why has Israel not called in Abbas?

                  Note also that Hamas in Gaza has not claimed responsibility for the kidnappings (and as Grumpy says they gloat about killing jews) and no evidence supports Hamas as being culpable.

                  Despite all this, even if Hamas was responsible, nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the level of carnage that the IDF is inflicting on the Palestinian people trapped in Gaza.

            • Molly 1.3.1.1.1.4
              1 August 2014 at 10:39 am

              Go to Wikipedia to see who is using Palestinians as human shields – a good example of “Do as I say – not as I do” – by the IDF.

              These two images: One Two of Israeli soldiers and children are unlikely to have been photoshopped – and an Israeli court even convicted the soldiers of this crime – but likely after publication of the images.

            • framu 1.3.1.1.1.5
              1 August 2014 at 12:31 pm

              “Every country is entitled to self defence”

              except palestine?

              • Colonial Viper …
                1 August 2014 at 12:44 pm

                Remember it is the Israelis who have illegally militarily occupied Palestine. While Palestinian militia action can be said to be conducted in self defence, Israeli action must be viewed as those of a illegal military occupation. It is the military suppression of the indigenous Palestinian people and their partisans, but it is not self defence.

            • Kevin Welsh 1.3.1.1.1.6
              1 August 2014 at 4:29 pm

              And Israel continuing to build settlements on Palestinian land is not also using their own people as human shields?

    • CC 1.4
      1 August 2014 at 9:05 am

      Grumpy – no fears of indoctrination of Gaza kids with the clip you linked to. Most of those that are left will have no TV, no electricity and probably no homes, so won’t be able to access it. However, the most lethal indoctrination is being provided by the IDF and the 90% of Israeli citizens who are claimed to be supporting the genocide.

      • grumpy 1.4.1
        1 August 2014 at 9:18 am

        “However, the most lethal indoctrination is being provided by the IDF and the 90% of Israeli citizens who are claimed to be supporting the genocide.”
        ….because they are fed up with their kids being showered with Hamas rockets with no condemnation by the West.

        • freedom 1.4.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 11:03 am

          like the metservice forecasts
          some reports prove more sensational than substantial
          http://i.imgur.com/W7qUmCv.png

        • swordfish 1.4.1.2
          1 August 2014 at 11:06 am

          Dear old Harriet and Grumpers appear to recognise The Truth by the way it comes with an official Israeli Ministry of Information logo stamped on it. They’ve clearly been exposed to a few too many MEMRI soundbytes over the years.

          Apparently, there’s a “war” going on in Gaza, with wicked old Hamas showering Israeli kids with Rockets. Strange then the death toll is:

          Palestinians
          More than 1200
          At least 850 Civilians
          At least one quarter Children

          Israelis
          3 Civilians
          Around 60 IDF Soldiers

          A very similar death-ratio to Israel’s last massacre of Gazan civilians in late08/early09.

          And, of course, as report after report from internationally-respected Human Rights organisations have attested, Israel’s attempts to deflect from their War Crimes by accusing (at various times) Hamas or Hezbollah of using human shields / firing rockets from Schools and Hospitals has no basis whatsoever – whether we’re talking about Israel’s carpet-bombing of Lebanon in 2006, its massacre of 1400 Gaza civilians in the previous massacre of late 08/early 09, or the latest massacre and associated terror-bombing. What these Human Rights groups have shown, however, is that the IDF have a long sordid history of using Palestinian and Lebanese civilians as human shields.

          But by all means stick to the official Israeli script, Harriet and Grumpers. We wouldn’t want you to start suffering any yucky cognitive dissonance now, would we ? You dumb, cold-blooded immoral fucks.

            • Colonial Viper 1.4.1.2.1.1
              1 August 2014 at 2:29 pm

              That’s what you call a “brilliant retort”?

              Apparently the brilliant argument you see is that: 6M Jews died in WWII, so today Israeli state politicians are justified turning Gaza into the Warsaw Ghetto, slowly strangling it to death over many years, and intermittently launching full scale military assaults on to a hapless civilian population?

              Let’s take one particular line:

              Let’s get down to tin tacks. Exactly how many Jews do these people want to die for every 100 Palestinians? One for two, or an eye for an eye?

              And how should Israel manage this, given its technological superiority – a vital edge granted to an open society? By handing over volunteers to Hamas for execution? By letting a few more Hamas rockets actually land in Tel Aviv?

              Firstly, Israel is not an open society. It is a apartheid security state. IF you are Jewish, then yes, Israel appears much more like a liberal democracy. If you are an Arab living in Israel, bad luck. Several dozen laws as well as the whole of Israeli civil society discriminates against you.

              Secondly how Israel should “manage” this is to end its illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

              This of course will never be allowed to happen; extremist right wing Israelis have a habit of killing their own Prime Ministers before allowing illegal settlements to be taken down.

          • infused 1.4.1.2.2
            2 August 2014 at 1:46 am

            There’s heaps of evidence out there if you actually look. Like Hamas training to their social media counter parts. All casualties are to be called ‘civilians’.

            Storing and shooting rockets from residential homes. Telling residents to stay put.

            Yeah, ok.

            • Colonial Viper 1.4.1.2.2.1
              2 August 2014 at 1:53 am

              Wow those 4 kids on the beach who were killed by a precision missile must have been launching rockets too?

              How about offices and hotels where journalists were working? Launching missiles from the roof tops in between filing stories were they?

              How about the UNSWRA schools, I suppose they were full of militant tunnels and armaments right?

              And the Palestinian authority finance ministry. What was going on there? Did the Israelis level that building because…I dunno…it was doing book keeping for Hamas???

              Come on mate grow a brain and see that Israel simply wants to take what little is left of Palestinian land.

        • miravox 1.4.1.3
          1 August 2014 at 6:32 pm

          “because they are fed up with their kids being showered with Hamas rockets with no condemnation by the West.

          Really?

          https://www.google.co.nz/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Israel+right+to+defend&tbm=nws

    • Wreckingball 1.5
      1 August 2014 at 11:19 am

      I don’t profess to take a side in the Israeli-Palestinian debate as I don’t think it is quite clear cut (either way) as many believe but there is certainly a lot of truth in the below article.

      http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/07/31/The-Left-Hate-Israel-Because-It-Is-Everything-They-Despise-Capitalist-Conservative-and-Patriotic

      It never ceases to amaze me the level of vitriol aimed at Israel compared with other far worse atrocities being committed across the world – I.e. the massacre of Christians across the middle east.

      • Ennui 1.5.1
        1 August 2014 at 12:01 pm

        Wreckingball….I could cite any number of pro Israeli articles and any number of pro Palestinian that would contradict one another and confuse and contort the whole thing.

        From the sidelines we appear to have an intractable issue, sort of “East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet”. Hard line Jews (Gods chosen people) and Islamic militants (to whom everyone else is an Infidel). Blame is too late, the issue is how both parties can accommodate the others existence in the same spot. Because if they don’t both sides are as the say “a goner”. The only way to “win” is to make lasting peace, and that does not require armies regular or asymetric.

        • grumpy 1.5.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 12:13 pm

          Probably best comment so far. But Jews are not killing people around the world for not being Jews, killing homosexuals, repressing women, forcing female genital mutilation. In the insane conflict you describe, which side are we actually on?……and which one do the left want us to be?….turkey…..christmas….early?

        • Wreckingball 1.5.1.2
          1 August 2014 at 12:22 pm

          I agree Ennui, I am not try to apportion blame and do not necessarily support either side. It is just that some of the facts need to be given some airtime. The whole situation is very sad and I do not know what the solution is. Any ceasefire will only be temporary – a long term solution must be sought.

        • tinfoilhat 1.5.1.3
          1 August 2014 at 1:25 pm

          Well said ennui.

        • North 1.5.1.4
          1 August 2014 at 10:51 pm

          So Israel’s a “goner” is it, as the beneficiary upwards of $US 3 billion military aid annually is it ? Sounds very John Armstrong to me. I’m sick of the fucking lies. Why am I encouraged to support some Nazi’s religious zealotry ? And applaud the cold murder of children ? And weep the deaths of 50 Nazi IDF stormtroopers ? Fuck them. I don’t care about them. I care about 1,400 Palestinians. Poor oppressed people. The European Jews of 2014.

          • Murray Olsen 1.5.1.4.1
            2 August 2014 at 1:36 am

            +1 North. I agree completely. I can’t feel anything for IDF soldiers who die while looking for Palestinians to kill. As far as I’m concerned, the idea of god’s chosen people is fully equivalent to that of an Aryan master race. Zionism has morphed into the new fascism, and things would be worse if they could survive without US help. The only thing that slows them down is fear of losing all those greenbacks.

      • grumpy 1.5.2
        1 August 2014 at 12:08 pm

        chances of anyone here reading that – nil

      • North 1.5.3
        1 August 2014 at 6:38 pm

        Saying you don’t profess to taking a side doesn’t mean that you just didn’t.

    • joe90 1.6
      1 August 2014 at 11:31 am

      What hope is there?

      When Israeli children aspire to killing Arabs, none.

      http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ca2_1405199802

    • Murray Olsen 1.7
      2 August 2014 at 12:47 am

      What a load of Hasbara crap, made in an IDF studio. I know people who’ve been in Gaza, and they never saw this on tv.

  2. phillip ure 2
    1 August 2014 at 7:55 am

    comment@whoar:..a tale of two interviews…the very best and the very worst of new zealand media..mary wilson vs. rawdon christie…

    ed:..on checkpoint on national radio last nite mary wilson was at her very best..

    ..wilson was interviewing the israeli ambassador..who was trying to defend what the israeli govt/people are doing to the palestinians..

    ..(polls in israel show overwhelming support for the attacks on gaza)..

    ..wilson wasn’t having a bar of this..and she was all over him..like a laser beam..

    ..and it was an example of questioning-journalism at its’ very best..

    ..the other side of the coin was on breakfast television this morning..

    (cont..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/commentwhoar-a-tale-of-two-interviews-the-very-best-and-the-very-worst-of-new-zealand-media-mary-wilson-vs-rawdon-christie/

    • Bearded Git 2.1
      1 August 2014 at 11:03 am

      +100 spot on phillip.

      Watch how Key and cronies are given soft Checkpoint interviews by Mora in the election campaign

      • phillip ure 2.1.1
        1 August 2014 at 12:08 pm

        and after that tour de force from wilson…listening to mora..

        ..i came to the conclusion that inserting mora into wilsons’ show..

        ..was like putting a clock on something that doesn’t really need/want a clock..

        ..and whereas you have internet/mana being greater than the sum of their parts..

        ..the exact opposite has happened with the pairing of wilson/mora..

        ..neither of them come out looking better…

        ..and the sum of their parts is a lesser…

        ..and the listener is the ultimate loser..

        ..(what on earth were they thinking..?..)

        ..poss solution..?

        ..split the afternoon in half..give mora a tighter show from 3-5..

        ..and then just let wilson do her thing @ five..

  3. CC 3
    1 August 2014 at 8:50 am

    Interesting to note how closely the Israeli Ambassador tried to keep to the Dr. Frank Luntz propaganda ‘script’. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

  4. Seti 4
    1 August 2014 at 9:03 am

    Household Labour Force Survey out next Wednesday. Probably the most significant statistic in the minds of voters, and final one before the election. Consensus is for a drop in unemployment from 6.0% to 5.8%. Consensus or lower could see a strong election night result for National. Any increase will probably see weaker polling.

    • JK 4.1
      1 August 2014 at 9:17 am

      yeah, right ! tell that to all the unemployed, the underemployed, and those struggling, Seti.

      • Bill 4.1.1
        1 August 2014 at 9:33 am

        Did you hear that terrible, terrible news about Iran on yesterday’s ‘Nine to Noon? The interviewee was aghast over the fact that so many Iranians who work struggle to survive and that (unbelievable!) some people even have two jobs and can’t make ends meet.

        Thank god we live in NZ and not some basket case country.

    • Molly 4.2
      1 August 2014 at 12:09 pm

      The Household Labour Force survey is a survey of 15,000 households. Even though it is produced by Statistics NZ it is reliant on the response from said households.

      Easy to comprehend that the chronically unemployed and transient are excluded from such surveys, and that the findings are not the same as those that might be found from data analysis of census statistics etc.

    • tricledrown 4.3
      1 August 2014 at 12:49 pm

      seti unnecessary power price increase today lol

  5. veutoviper 5
    1 August 2014 at 9:23 am

    Breaking – on John Banks’ sentencing etc

    RadioNZ National has just reported that Banks has been formally convicted. Apparently he has decided not to seek discharge without conviction. Hearing continues; sentence yet to be announced.

  6. swordfish 6
    1 August 2014 at 9:26 am

    And hard on the heels of the latest Roy Morgan comes a One News Colmar-Brunton that finds that “New Zealanders are more trusting of Mr Dotcom than the Prime Minister”.

    On the question of when Key knew about Dotcom – 48% believe Dotcom’s telling the truth, just 33% think Key is and the remaining 19% are Unsure.

    see….http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/finlayson-keeps-mum-dotcom-after-fbi-meeting-6042785
    (and read details of Finlayson’s murky meeting with FBI Deputy Director)

    And the Jackal’s brief overview here…http://thejackalman.blogspot.co.nz/2014/07/who-do-you-believe.html

    • Bill 6.1
      1 August 2014 at 10:04 am

      Sooo, what you reckon the odds are that Finlayson was looking for a heads up from Giuliano on what possible information Dotcom might have got his hands on? I mean, assuming that Greenwald is speaking to the Auckland meeting on more than just general issues of spying, and given that it’s already out there that the NSA doesn’t really know what info Snowdon has…

    • Chooky 6.2
      1 August 2014 at 10:59 am

      and here from Bomber and his commenters

      ‘More NZers trust Kim Dotcom than John Key’

      By Martyn Bradbury / August 1, 2014

      When asked by TVNZ who they believed – Kim Dotcom or John Key, an overwhelming number of people backed Kim over John…

      Taking into account the bias of land lines opinion polls, that’s an extraordinary result and it’s a result that is keeping up National Party strategists late into the night as they try and work out what bomb Kim will drop on September 15th.

      Sadly for the National Party there are multiple bombs and they are all incredibly damaging.

      • Bill 6.2.1
        1 August 2014 at 11:50 am

        Chooky. When you’ve cut and pasted the entire commentary, why pre-face the link with ”See more at”?

        • Chooky 6.2.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 5:20 pm

          …because you might like to go to that site and explore other little gems by other writers…. or more of Bomber’s writings on other subjects…also under every piece on that site comes that link ie “See more at…etc

        • Chooky 6.2.1.2
          2 August 2014 at 9:14 am

          …in addition it is interesting to read comments on Bradbury’s Posts on his own Daily Blog site

  7. millsy 7
    1 August 2014 at 9:31 am

    Grumpy and Harriet,

    Why do you support the murder and butchery on unarmed women and children by the Israelis who of all people should know what it is like to be murdered and butchered over the past 2000 years for no reason other than they were Jewish.

    If you were in the IDF would you shoot women and children in cold blood?

  8. grumpy 8
    1 August 2014 at 9:36 am

    I suggest you read more widely. Hamas admit using human shield and many so called cases of Israeli shelling of UN facilities are, in fact, malfunctioning Hamas rockets.
    Also, well documented cases (with fulsome UN apologies) of Hamas rockets being found in UN schools.
    You really should get out more…..

    • locus 8.1
      1 August 2014 at 10:13 am

      No independent corroboration of these despicable claims youre making. Only one case of hamas using a school during a holiday to store rockets which were immediately reported and removed by the UN when they inspected the school before term started. And how does that give the right to a modern high tech equipped army to then fire shells at a school being used as a refuge? Outrageous and totally indefesible argument you are putting forward grumpy. I suggest you read more widely than Ynet

      • grumpy 8.1.1
        1 August 2014 at 11:18 am

        I think you are looking for something like this…UNRWA good enough for you?
        http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1406444248

        • swordfish 8.1.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 1:15 pm

          Absolutely pathetic.

          Israeli propanganda website citing an Israeli television channel. And even then they’re still forced to admit that “one IDF shell struck the school”. You really are a true-believer, aren’t you Grumps. Keep on regurgitating the latest IDF spin and linking to these embarrassing (for you) websites. At least 6 UN Schools have been murderously attacked by Israel over the last couple of weeks, precisely as it did in the massacre of 2008-09. Schools, Hospitals, Places of Worship, untold family homes, vital economic infrastructure.

          If only we could get a parachute onto your back and drop you into Gaza as your much-loved IDF continues its terror-bombing. You might finally start to get a bit of a clue. You know, as opposed to sitting safely on your arse thousands of miles away while cheering on the mass murder of civilian men, women and children.

          Like I said: DUMB. COLD-BLOODED. IMMORAL FUCK.

        • swordfish 8.1.2.1
          1 August 2014 at 1:50 pm

          Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear….The Washington Free Beacon – an extremist Neo-Conservative website that thinks Obama is some kind of Commie Israel-hater.

          Thanks for highlighting the truly bizarre ideological circles you move in, Grumps.

          Now, tell us again why 1300 Gazans, most of them civilian men, women, and children – people who have had to suffer for years under a brutal blockade (considered by the UN, leading human rights groups, and anyone with an ounce of moral substance to constitute a major humanitarian crisis, bordering on War Crime), part and parcel of Israel’s brutal 47-year Occupation and on-going ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people – tell us all again, Grumpy me old love, why they deserve to be murdered by Israel’s orgy of destruction, as you sit nice and safe a few thousand miles away ?

        • swordfish 8.1.3.1
          1 August 2014 at 2:47 pm

          Ahhhhh, I see you’re going for the trifecta !

          Breitbart “News” – yet another aggressively far-right, neo-conservative social media site.

          How incredibly “convincing”, Grumpers.

          As those in the know have pointed out: “Muslim-bashing, conspiracy-mongering and Israel-boosting” are at the heart of the Breitbart brand (in addition to one or two other perennial uber-neo-conservative obsessions). Their core view seems to be the conspiracy theory that Muslims and western liberals have conspired together to destroy the West.

          A number of sites have accused them of creating entirely false “news” reports to further their far right political agenda. And I see, amongst other things, that:

          • Breitbart sponsored a special “Uninvited” panel for 2 right-wing neo-conservative speakers at last year’s Conservative Political Action Conference in the UK after they were rejected as speakers in the main forum for being “too hateful”.
          • Breitbart’s uber-Right-Wing, pro-gun, liberal-hating Orthodox Jewish editor-at-large, Ben Shapiro, recently (on Fox News) charged Obama with leading an “anti-Israel” and “borderline Jew-hating” administration. Shapiro followed this up with an article with the unambiguous title ‘The Jew-Hating Obama Administration’
          • Meanwhile, back in April, one of its recent “contributing journalists” wondered aloud (in a tweet that was later deleted) if it wasn’t time for “Americans to start slaughtering Muslims in the streets, all of them”

          Yeah, we “give up” alright, Grumpers, give up on you ever seeing sense.

    • greywarbler 8.2
      1 August 2014 at 10:31 am

      @ grumpy 9.36
      You are the one who should get out more, and expose yourself to sunlight.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.3
      1 August 2014 at 5:36 pm

      many so called cases of Israeli shelling of UN facilities are, in fact, malfunctioning Hamas rockets.

      I figure that you just pulled that one out of your arse.

  9. bad12 9
    1 August 2014 at 9:38 am

    Gross from the Minister of Trade Tim Gosser via Granny Herald this morning, ‘protected’ Patagonian Tooth-fish washed down with 90 bucks worth of wine was the menu for Tim and ‘officials’ at a recent TPPA meeting in Singapore,

    Wonder what was in the salt shakers, ground Tiger bones perhaps, these people have no shame and worse the taxpayer picks up the tab as Grosser and friends devour a species of fish for dinner that the rest of the world is putting a huge effort into saving from extinction,

    One more small reason to vote Out National in September…

  10. bad12 10
    1 August 2014 at 9:47 am

    RadioNZ National…about now, can plants ‘hear’, a couple of researchers discussing the playing of a recording of a caterpillar munching on a mustard plant which then responded by producing defensive chemicals…

    • The Al1en 10.1
      1 August 2014 at 10:00 am

      That’s interesting Bad. Makes me wonder what the plants in those attic grow room concentration camps throw out when they hear the death camp cultivators coming up the stairs.

      • bad12 10.1.1
        1 August 2014 at 10:28 am

        THC Alien, oodles and oddles of THC, a lot of it crystallized by the growing conditions…

        • The Al1en 10.1.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 10:30 am

          So potheads are in fact smoking the induced fear of those innocent sativa and indica plants.
          Oh the humanity. 😆

          • bad12 10.1.1.1.1
            1 August 2014 at 10:39 am

            More the death throes of the plants Alien as the good growers can judge to an nth when root and vegetable material has reached an end of life state and the flowers are about to…

            • The Al1en 10.1.1.1.1.1
              1 August 2014 at 10:47 am

              I’m not unfamiliar or inexperienced with the practices Bad, but these days, and for a long while, I’m no Mengele of the grow room.
              If legalised (or controlled) I could be tempted back, but I’d have to buy some ear muffs so I didn’t have to hear those poor plants screaming as I ripped their flowers from their stalks.

              Oddly, now it makes me yearn for bacon.

            • The Al1en 10.1.1.1.1.2
              1 August 2014 at 12:23 pm

              Not ignoring you bad, I have a comment in moderation.

      • tricledrown 10.1.2
        1 August 2014 at 2:53 pm

        the allen a cunning plan fill grow room with cannibis smoke and the plants play loud pschodelic music comfortably numbing etcetc

    • One Anonymous Bloke 10.2
      1 August 2014 at 10:01 am

      Meanwhile, in the vegetable bin…

      Potato: Vegans!

      Leek: Eek!

  11. Jenny 11
    1 August 2014 at 9:56 am

    When I was in Gaza people were begging me to help them get out.

    In surrounding countries I met Palestinian refugees who knew that I was going to Gaza who were begging to be allowed entry to visit their relatives. I met business leaders who were begging to be allowed imported parts to repair the old and warn machines in their factories.

    As David Cameron the Prime Minister of Britain has remarked Gaza is the world’s biggest open air prison.

    I went to Gaza in a time of relative peace to deliver medical aid and supplies as part of the Viva Palestina efforts to break the medieval like siege of the city.

    When I was there in a time of so called peace the Israelis would mount military raids or fire shots into Gaza killing its citizens, mostly farmers tending their fields near the border, or fishermen trying to make a living from the sea. When I was there, there was an air raid on the tunnels which were Gaza’s only lifeline to the outside world. And military jets often buzzed the city at night. None of this of course is mentioned in polite society.

    Presently the the Israelis are most definitely waging a war of racist genocide on a people who can not escape and can barely resist.

    It is the duty of the people of the world to do what they can to stop this genocide. In this remote corner of the world there is probably little people can do to stop this genocide. But we should do it.

    The first minimum thing we should, and can do, and which a number of other countries are doing, is call for the closing of the Israeli Embassy in Wellington.

    If the government won’t do it then the opposition parties should pledge to do it.

    The Green and Mana Parties do not hesitate to make this call against genocide.

    Labour of course like National are “very similar” or “close” on this issue, as they are on most other issues.

  12. RTM 12
    1 August 2014 at 10:02 am

    As an article in the Listenerlifts the lid on Maoribashing and other types of bigotry in NZ’s Steiner schools, a senior Steiner teacher condemns Maori culture as primitive and doomed in a letter to the Otago Daily Times. There’s clearly cause for a wide-ranging investigation by the Ministry of Education into this mess: http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2014/08/steiner-teachers-and-racism-tale-of-two.html

    • greywarbler 12.1
      1 August 2014 at 10:25 am

      @ RTM 10.02
      Thanks for passing that on. That’s shocking. I had always admired Steiner schools,and never realised that within their take on life they could adopt such ugly attitudes.

      Wikipedia has an extensive background bio for Steiner, who was Austrian. It notes that Hitler hated him and he was attacked much after the end of WW1 and foresaw the degeneration that Hitler’s people were introducing..

      It is interesting that Hayek, Steiner and Hitler were all Austrians. And all have had a big effect on the rest of the world.

      On Steiner and race Wikipedis says:
      Steiner occasionally characterized specific races, nations, and ethnicities in ways that have been termed racist by critics[121] including descriptions of certain races and ethnic groups as flowering, others as backward, destined to disappear, or even degenerate;[120]
      and presented explicitly hierarchical views of the spiritual evolution of different races,[122] including—at times, and inconsistently—portraying the white race, European culture, or Germanic culture as representing the high point of human evolution as of the early 20th century,
      though describing these as destined to be superseded by future cultures.

    • Chooky 12.2
      1 August 2014 at 10:36 am

      @ RTM…while we are at it lets take a good hard look at the racism and sexism messages in the Old Testament and examine New Zealand state funded Christian religious schools to see if they are perpetuating a sexist or racist message…lets start with the Catholic Church Schools of special character …then we could move on to fundamentalist religious Charter Schools of special character

      • tinfoilhat 12.2.1
        1 August 2014 at 1:49 pm

        Not sure what your issue is with state integrated religious schools Chooky I have relieved at a number of them around Auckland and without exception have found them to be very good.

        Certainly I agree we don’t want to have the problems they’ve been seeing in the UK but I don’t believe there’s any evidence for that in NZ.

      • greywarbler 12.2.2
        1 August 2014 at 5:58 pm

        @Chooky 10.36
        Let’s start keeping to the point and not wandering off into other side avenues. There is no chance of looking closely at one thing when conflicting other matters are being raised with comparative fault being allocated to all parties, apparently in an effort to confuse the original issue. This is not the first time you have done this.

        • Chooky 12.2.2.1
          1 August 2014 at 10:23 pm

          not at all… it is very relevant …i know people ( Jewish, Dutch with European ancestry ) who have been or sent their kids to Steiner schools …and they were not racist at all as far as i could see…nor do i think the Steiner schools they went to were racist

          A Steiner school would not be my choice ….however they do seem to turn out very creative kids and some very academic kids when they get to university

          Why judge all Steiner Schools by one school or one piece of aberrant philosophy?

          ….and are Christian schools so different? …look closely at the Old Testament and you will find both racism and sexism…the Christian Church in New Zealand was often quite racist and paternalistic ….and sexism is institutionalised in many Christian denominations and especially in Catholicism ….are we going to apply the same standards to Catholic Schools that are applied to Steiner Schools?….or are we going to be smug, paternalistic and hypocritical?…and just pick on Steiner Schools?

          Personally i dont think the State should be propping up private schools at all ….if people want to go to or send their kids to schools of special character or religious character or Charter Schools they should pay for it ALL themselves…and not hit up on the secular tax payer!

      • Clemgeopin 12.2.3
        1 August 2014 at 11:16 pm

        It is a bit unfair to reference the old testament which is sort of common in some parts to Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions but then hold modern ‘Christians’ to account, when in reality the Christians are followers of the teachings of the ‘New Testament’ as taught by Jesus ‘Christ’ who most certainly was neither sexist nor racist, in spite of those 2,000 year old times and cultures, as far as I know. So, I am not sure what point you were trying to make.

        • Chooky 12.2.3.1
          2 August 2014 at 9:54 am

          @Clemgeopin

          There are several points I would like to make

          1. I dont believe ALL Steiner schools are racist …not in my experience …quite the contrary!….in fact recently i spent several days with two young Americans who had been educated in an American Steiner School….both were university educated in the biological sciences…one was part Cherokee and was fascinated by Maori culture….as I also have Maori ancestry we greeted each other like cousins and with great respect …we both have great regard for the ‘Wisdom of the Elders’ as David Suzuki and David Knudtson put it… and their deep cultural roots in the environment and polytheistic nature spirituality
          2. I would like to know more about Catherine Woulf and her background and agenda on Steiner Schools…they are certainly Not racist in my experience or many others’ experience …maybe the school she talks about is an aberration, in which case it will be dealt with …but to slander all Steiner Schools as racist is not fair or honest…especially as fundamentalist Judaism and Christianity also have very questionable philosophies
          3. While most of us have a lot of respect for Christians who adhere to the ‘God of Love’ and tolerance of the New Testament…..this is Not the ‘God of the Old Testament’ that, lets be honest here, fundamentalist Christians and Jews adhere to, is it? In 2006 Richard Dawkins in ‘The God Delusion’ wrote:

          “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust,unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully”.

          Perhaps our Christian Schools are not based on the God of the Old Testament …one would hope not….but the philosophy is still there….so why get so precious about a strand of outmoded philosophy in Steiner?

          Maybe we should be more concerned about Old Testament religious fundamentalism and its horrendous effects in the Middle East?

          • Clemgeopin 12.2.3.1.1
            2 August 2014 at 11:17 am

            I had not made any reference to Steiner school, as I don’t know much about it at all.

            In my opinion, Richard Dawkins is a man with an extremist agenda as if he ‘knows’ everything. He is the God of the atheists!

    • marty mars 12.3
      1 August 2014 at 11:08 am

      Good article by Scott and as he notes in the comments it’s not that racism occurs via individuals but rather it is how the structure of the group deals with those views and in this case the answer is not very well at all.

      We have a lot of alternative education options here in Mohua, personally we are homeschooling via democratic, child-led, project based education and have not/will not go steiner.

  13. greywarbler 13
    1 August 2014 at 10:07 am

    Radio Australia is being gutted by Tony Abbott’s government. Mike Field Pacific reporter speaking on RadioNZ says its a tragedy. RA has been the main news source for the Pacific and helped to reveal problems and relay needed information. Sounds as it is has been the BBC of our area of the globe. Radio NZ International will be more important now.

    The important pieces of infrastructure that responsible well managed countries with good standards which they aspire to maintain are being thrown out, and citizens are electing governments that indicate that they will act in this way. So then they are complicit in the destruction of their civilised way of government and life that has been built slowly and only with great effort from committed people, who I believe are not the largest percentage of the population either.

  14. tricledrown 14
    1 August 2014 at 10:11 am

    Brain Fade Key lying for New Zilanders.
    Key has painted himself into corner on Kim Dotcom,
    When Key was reassuring New Zealanders about the increased surveillance powers of the GSCB and SIS Brain Fade Key said not to worry as their were only a hand full of people being surveilled and he knew all the names on the list being in charge of the SIS.
    Now Slyman Bredges is lying about electricity price increases being the fault of infrastructure cost when only 20% of the increase is due to that the rest is price gouging by cartels screwing New Zealanders with the help of the socold free market party.
    National Screwing Kiwis for everything they can get.
    Hauiti is that!
    National are in big trouble!

  15. Puckish Rogue 15
    1 August 2014 at 10:23 am

    Winston doesn’t like National and doesn’t like the Greens, Winston doesn’t want to go into a coalition deal with the Mana or the Maori Party, Winston has always said he’d prefer to go with party that gains the largest vote

    National plus Winston = 51% + Dunnes vote + Acts vote = 3 more years for John Key and if Ron Mark takes over NZfirst then John Key might even go for another term after that

    Happy days for NZ 🙂

    • Lanthanide 15.1
      1 August 2014 at 10:37 am

      “Winston has always said he’d prefer to go with party that gains the largest vote”

      No, he’s said he’d always talk to the party with the largest vote first. Which actually is meaningless, because you can say “hello National, nice seeing you” and that counts as “talking”.

      • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1
        1 August 2014 at 11:16 am

        Do you think Winston and his supporters would prefer National or Labour/Greens?

        • Te Reo Putake 15.1.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 11:40 am

          It’s rather interesting that he named mana and maori, but not a word about the Greens. I think you can take that as a sign that he sees L+G+NZF as a definite option. And I think his ego would rather like the idea that he personally ended John Key’s career, don’t you? Revenge, dish, cold etc.

          • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1.1.1
            1 August 2014 at 11:51 am

            I think the key word is Ego, Winston will achieve a more impressive legacy (whatever that means to him) by working with National not forgetting that NZFirst is a more natural fit with National then the Greens

            • Te Reo Putake 15.1.1.1.1.1
              1 August 2014 at 1:13 pm

              He doesn’t have to have anything to do with the Greens, though obviously he worked with them on the Manufacturing Enquiry a couple of years ago. As the maori party pointed out the other day, their deal is with national, not ACT. The same would apply to a Labour/NZF deal. And I think you really need to get your head out of the nineties. That’s the last time Winnie did a deal with the Nats. More recently, they shafted him royally and sent him into purgatory for 3 years. I reckon the latter is what will be uppermost in his mind.

            • Lanthanide 15.1.1.1.1.2
              1 August 2014 at 3:11 pm

              NZFirst wants to buy back the SOEs. So do the Greens. Seems he has more in common with them than National, to me.

          • Clemgeopin 15.1.1.1.2
            1 August 2014 at 11:34 pm

            Last time around, Key did Winston a great favour for NZF’s party vote by ruling it out in his government. Some anti-Key/anti-Nat vote went to NZF giving them the threshold.

            This time around, Key has done Winston a great favour for NZF’s party vote by NOT ruling it out in his government. Some anti-key, anti-Cons, as well as some pro-key, pro-ACT vote will go to NZF helping them to get the threshold.

            Strange/confusing stuff, I know!

    • bad12 15.2
      1 August 2014 at 10:50 am

      Colon and the Conservatives half inch a small % of Winston’s vote in September leaving NZFirst stranded like a beached whale on 4.5% of the vote = History for Slippery’s National Government along with ACT/Dunne,

      Colon the Conservative’s 2.7% of the vote, along with Winston’s 4.5% is redistributed among the Parties that do succeed in entering the Parliament giving Labour 33%, Greens 12%, InternetMana 5%, =50% which just happens to trump National now stranded on 48% with Dunne and that ACT non-entity who’s name i keep forgetting…

    • Bearded Git 15.3
      1 August 2014 at 11:12 am

      Winnie really hates Key=PM Cunliffe. Anybody who watches parliament would realise this. How can Winnie forget the way Key treated him in 2008?

      The final nail in the coffin was when the Nats allowed Horan some of their questions at QT to hassle Winnie.

      • bad12 15.3.1
        1 August 2014 at 11:21 am

        You see things somewhat ‘strangely’, if you watch yesterdays Question Time in the Parliament you will actually see Brownlee as Leader of the House offer up one of National’s allotted ‘supplementary questions’ so Peters can continue to question Paula Benefit,

        Do not be fooled by stage managed perceptions, the best that can be said about NZFirst is its 50/50 either way, and, if Ron Marks is to be believed,(afterall He is a NZFirst insider),then Winston has been a lot less than honest with the ”no deals till after the vote” snake-oil…

        • Bearded Git 15.3.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 12:11 pm

          You may well be right bad12. My hunch is he will go with Cunliffe. Your hunch is Key? September 27th will reveal all.

          • bad12 15.3.1.1.1
            1 August 2014 at 12:46 pm

            Bearded, your hunching presupposes that Winston will gather enough votes to be back in the Parliament at all, 3 weeks ago i would have not entertained the possibility that NZFirst wouldn’t,

            Now the game i would suggest has change somewhat with Slippery the PM ‘ruling out’ a deal for Colon and the Conservatives,

            ‘Hunching’ using the latest Roy Morgan which gives those Conservatives only 1% of support, and, Winston’s crew a bare 5%, i would suggest that with a hell of a bigger bankroll this time round Colon the Conservative aint about to quietly exit stage right and will likely pull a little over 2% of the Party Vote in September,

            A % of that Party Vote that Colon an the Conservatives gather will come from the NZFirst voter pool, how big a % is not measurable, however, with 5% of the vote Winston cannot afford to lose any small fraction which indicates to me that NZFirst is likely to fall as it did in 2008 agonizingly short of the necessary 5%, but, short non-the-less…

            • Bearded Git 15.3.1.1.1.1
              1 August 2014 at 2:44 pm

              Hope you are right-there could be 8% wasted vote between Colonservatives/NZF.

              • Daveosaurus …
                1 August 2014 at 7:58 pm

                The ideal result would be the Crazy Col on 4%, ACT on 4% and Peters First on 4%, with none winning any electorate seats. Even though democratic purists may quibble, that would remove the most racist 12% of New Zealanders from the political equation.

        • Clemgeopin 15.3.1.2
          1 August 2014 at 11:42 pm

          Could be a Machiavellian cunning plan to give the soft NAT, ACT and CONS supporters to think that NZF will be going with the NAT coalition government, thus hoping to get some easy votes for the threshold?

      • Puckish Rogue 15.3.2
        1 August 2014 at 11:23 am

        The person that can offer the most baubles is the one that will get his support and when it comes to business Keys streets ahead of David “Fonterra” Cunliffe

        But don’t worry you’ve got a little bit of time left when you can entertain hopes of a left-wing govt being formed 🙂

        • Clemgeopin 15.3.2.1
          1 August 2014 at 11:45 pm

          Key will probably offer Winston the biggest possible bauble, the PM post and fly off to Hawaii.

  17. Puckish Rogue 17
    1 August 2014 at 10:35 am

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbnat/1178242804-mana-candidate-claims-she-fell-foul-of-90-day-trial-period-law

    • She shows shes ready to step straight back into left-wing politics though she should stop listening to Kris fa’foi when it comes to remembering things 🙂
  18. Chooky 18
    1 August 2014 at 10:54 am

    ‘You won’t believe Mike Hosking’s latest column’

    By Martyn Bradbury / August 1, 2014

    “How can someone openly taunting one of the candidates be even remotely suitable for the Public Broadcaster?…

    (my comment: Hoskings is a fruit and vege market reporter …he excelled at this …he is absolutely gifted on talking about the current status, quality and quantity of NZ locally grown fruit and veges…TVNZ should make a special programme for him…take him away from politics )

  19. RTM 19
    1 August 2014 at 11:08 am

    Hi Grey Warbler,

    the notion that Hitler hated Steiner schools is a myth which seems, so far as I can tell, to be used by Steiner’s followers when they get called out for racism. A US academic called Peter Staudenmaier has recently published a book after excavating some of the archives of Europe: he argues that the Steiner school movement thrived under Hitler, and he cites numerous documents, including friendly letters from Steiner’s followers to the Nazi government, to prove his point. There’s an interesting interview with Staudenmaier here:
    http://www.swans.com/library/art18/barker122.html

    Of course most Steiner teachers aren’t raving racists, and anthroposophy, like all religions, is quite capable of being interpreted in ways its racist founder never imagined. What I think recent events show, though, is that the Steiner schools movement is at present incapable of policing itself, when it comes to issues like racism.

    And although early twentieth century Austria produced Hitler, Steiner, and Hayek, it did also give us Wittgenstein, Klimt, and Freud!

    • Ennui 19.1
      1 August 2014 at 11:28 am

      I watched the wonderful Jonathan Meades on Youtube going over Nazi architecture. The thing that he made plain about Hitler and his cronies was that they were very in tune with occult spiritualism, and pseudo science. That might explain something re Steiner.

    • greywarbler 19.2
      1 August 2014 at 6:23 pm

      @ RTM 11.08
      Hi that was interesting stuff but I have to read more yet. Have yet to look at the link.
      In the meantime I have found a bit about Wittgenstein. He was in Britain from 1929-1947. Saved from hateful Hitler by boofhead Brits eh!
      He was –
      Born in Vienna into one of Europe’s richest families, he inherited a large fortune from his father in 1913. He gave some considerable sums to poor artists. In a period of severe personal depression after the first World War, he then gave away his entire fortune to his brothers and sisters.[9][10] Three of his brothers committed suicide, with Wittgenstein contemplating it too.

      He seemed to be highly original in his thinking and the lengths he would go to in following a different path to the norm.

      Freud has led the way in new thinking in psychology though went OTT on sex and mother love.

      Klimt was a painter. They can be influential in demonstrating attitudes of mind and rendering subjects to display psychological features, in symbolic form.

      None of the above match Hitler and Hayek’s contorted thinking that has left us an awful legacy. And what you say about Steiner contradicts Wikipedia which details harrassment of Steiner by Hitler, who may have accepted him at one time and cast him off at others.

      You say something different to their version. If they are wrong Wikipedia should be edited for correctness.

  20. karol 20
    1 August 2014 at 11:33 am

    Auckland Action Against Poverty is having its 3rd Impact beneficiary advocacy action at Mangere in Sth Auckland next week.

    Welfare activist group Auckland Action Against Poverty is holding its third beneficiary ‘impact’ next week in Mangere.

    9.00am – 4.00pm Tues 5 – Wed 6 – Thurs 7 August

    Mangere Work & Income, 93 Mascot Ave

    “These are desperate times for people who aren’t getting the support they need and to which they are entitled,” says AAAP spokesperson and co-chair Sue Bradford.

    “An ‘impact’ is an intervention in which beneficiary advocates come together from different organisations to help as many people as possible over a concentrated three day period at one Work & Income office.
    […]
    “National’s welfare reforms are really bedding in now, and we are expecting to see even more people this time round.”

    “Our team of volunteer advocates is bigger than ever this year, with over 40 people involved, while MSD is putting on more than 20 extra staff over the three days.

    “People who need help from Work & Income should be treated with respect and get their full entitlements from the minute they walk into any office. Unfortunately, the reality is often very different.

    • Tiger Mountain 20.1
      1 August 2014 at 12:12 pm

      These events are where Sue and the other experienced and new advocates excel and they get results if the one I attended (by chance, saw Paul Blair on street) at Onehunga is typical. For a few hours the dept. behaved more like it should do all the time.

      • karol 20.1.1
        1 August 2014 at 12:28 pm

        Yes, that’s the way it looked to me when I attended the Onehunga one on the day that they had a demo and speeches from AAAP people and some opposition MPs.

        They were a strong presence on the streets of New Lynn during the last impact action, so looked also to be successful.

        Mangere is a very important area to focus on, and I think is very good in the lead up to the election to highlight the impacts of Bennett’s nasty little laws.

  21. Bearded Git 21
    1 August 2014 at 11:42 am

    Dita De Boni excellent here on how money talks in the Key government:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11302143

    Is it just me that has the feeling that the MSM has started to turn against the arrogance and venality of this government? Groser…McCully…Smith…Collins…Bridges…Coleman…Brownlee…Hauiti…Key versus KDC…deals with racist ACT…

    A bit of light on Amy Adams conflict of interest in the sacking of the Canterbury Regional Council should be next.

    • Puckish Rogue 21.1
      1 August 2014 at 11:55 am

      Its just you, the MSM have always acted this way the left just choose not to see it

    • Bearded Git 21.2
      1 August 2014 at 12:08 pm

      I forgot Finlayson and his secret talks with the Yanks on KDC (nicely lampooned by Gower on tv3 last night)….and the criminal Banks.

      The list of misdemeanours is really getting too long to remember.

  22. Jenny 22
    1 August 2014 at 11:51 am

    Unbearable to watch a new genocide is happening before our eyes. Yet as in the past the world turns a blind eye. New Zealand needs to give a lead.

    Close the Israeli embassy.

    Remove all diplomatic and travel privileges from Israel.

    These are the very minimum things we can do.

    The opposition parties should be demanding it now.

    Will they? Or will they keep their silence in the face of this massacre, and with their silence become complicit in it?

  23. Puckish Rogue 23
    1 August 2014 at 12:00 pm

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/07/mana_claims_they_have_a_secret_deal_with_labour_in_te_tai_tokerau.html

    • So National does its deals in the open and thats bad but Labour tries (and fails) to keep it secret but thats ok, do as Labour says not as it does apparantly 😉
    • Bearded Git 23.1
      1 August 2014 at 12:32 pm

      The Left’s simple guide to tactical voting:

      Green Party Supporters-Party Vote Green
      Labour Party Supporters-Party Vote Labour
      Internet-Mana Supporters-Party Vote Internet-Mana

      Te Tai Tokerau Constituency
      Green, Labour and Internet-Mana supporters Candidate Vote Mana-Hone Harawira

      Epsom Constituency
      Green, Labour and Internet-Mana supporters Candidate Vote National-Paul Goldsmith

      East Coast Bays Constituency
      Green, Labour and Internet-Mana supporters Candidate Vote National-Murray McCully

      Ohariu Constituency
      Green, Labour and Internet-Mana supporters Candidate Vote Labour-Virginia Andersen

    • framu 23.2
      1 August 2014 at 12:35 pm

      you still havent figured out DPF uses a slightly odd version of truth?

      Just like slater he is a paid for player in nationals shitty little dirty tricks war

      • Puckish Rogue 23.2.1
        1 August 2014 at 2:14 pm

        Its linked from that well known bastion of right wing thinking TV3

      • Te Reo Putake 23.2.2
        1 August 2014 at 2:36 pm

        framu is correct. DPF is lying when he uses that headline. Mana do not claim to have a secret deal. In the TV3 report a mana candidate, Annette Sykes, waffles a bit about TTT:

        “I think it’s already happening there,” says Ms Sykes.”It’s been informally signalled.”

        “I think”. “informally” Vague nothingness.

        Cunliffe also calls bullshit on the claim in the article, as does the Maori party’s Te Araroa Flavell. It’s a nothing, but that doesn’t stop Farrar lying.

        http://www.3news.co.nz/Annette-Sykes-chasing-Waiariki-deal/tabid/1607/articleID/354778/Default.aspx

        It’s a vacuous, fact free article, interesting only because Tova O’Brien has written a candidate for the year’s stupidest bit of Jonolism:

        “Labour’s taken the higher moral ground over coat-tailing, despite not ruling out working with Internet Mana – the masters of coat-tailing – after the election.”

        Get that? An alliance that has only been together a few weeks and has a grand total of no coat-tail MP’s what so fucken ever are the “masters of coat-tailing”. Muppet.

    • Draco T Bastard 23.3
      1 August 2014 at 5:49 pm

      You’re linking to Kiwiblog to substantiate that?

    • Jenny Kirk 23.4
      1 August 2014 at 8:18 pm

      HUGE load of codswallop, Puck Rogue, and you (and Whale Oil) know it. Kelvin Davis is going all out for Te Tai Tokerau seat – he’s going flat-out …. getting around the electorate, talking to people, HELPING people who’ve lost stuff in the floods, or who can’t get out, or who need food – that’s a huge effort on Kel and his assistants – getting sponsorship for food items, and actually driving over munted and dangerous roads to get it out to people, and they’ve done it three times so far. And then he’s doing his normal electorate stuff …. look on his FB page for what he’s doing, has been doing – and don’t think that the slowness of getting a few hoardings up is not an indication of how he’s going.
      His actual work on the ground is a bit more important than the billboards at the moment … and they’re
      going up around the place via volunteer support. Unlike his opponent, Kel is not paying anyone to put them up !

      • Murray Olsen 23.4.1
        2 August 2014 at 2:11 am

        That’s the second time I’ve seen someone say that Mana is paying to have billboards put up. The first time turned out to be wrong and the person who said it apologised.

        What is your evidence of this?

    • Clemgeopin 23.5
      1 August 2014 at 11:53 pm

      How CAN an ELECTORAL deal be SECRET when PEOPLE needs to be AWARE there IS a SECRET deal!

  24. Chooky 24
    1 August 2014 at 12:00 pm

    reply Ennui at 19.1…seems like Hitler had quite a connection with Catholicism

    According to Hitler’s chief architect, Albert Speer, Hitler remained a formal member of the
    Catholic Church until his death and even ordered his chief associates to remain members. (Albert
    Speer, Inside the Third Reich:Memoirs (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1997),p.96);
    Biographer John Toland argues that Hitler was “a member in good standing of the Church of Rome” and “carried within himself its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God” (John Toland, Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography (New York:Anchor Books, 1976), p.703) ; Historian,Richard Steigmann-Gall notes that “Hitler gave no indication of being an atheist or agnostic or of believing in only a remote, rationalist divinity. Indeed, he referred continually to a providential, active deity.” (Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003,p.26). He argues Christianity was fused into Hitler’s thinking (p. 46); Nazi General Gerhard Engel reported in his diary that in 1941 Hitler stated, “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”( John Toland, Adolf Hitler (New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992),p.507); According to Hitler’s personal photographer, Heinrich Hoffmann, the Catholic priest Bernhard Stempfle was a prominent member of Hitler’s inner circle and frequently advised him on religious issues( Derek Hastings, Catholicism and the Roots of Nazism (Oxford University Press, 2010), p.119); Catholic historian Jose Sanchez argues that Hitler’s anti-semiticism was explicitly rooted in Christianity. (Jose M. Sanchez, Pius XII and the Holocaust: Understanding the Controversy (Washington, D.C: Catholic University of American Press, 2002), p.70); Feminist Gloria Steinem draws parallels between the recent Christian Right, the Roman Catholic Church and Nazism – particularly in regard to women’s rights to contraception, work outside the family, their role in the family and society as breeders, mothers and wives;and issues such as abortion, homosexuality and feminism. For example; “In 1933, feminists were removed from teaching and other public posts by the same law that removed “non-Ayrans” from such jobs. All women were banned from the Reichstag, from judgeships, and from other decision-making posts”.(Gloria Steinem (1982) ‘The Nazi Connection’ (from research done at the Woodrow Wilson Center of the Smithsonian Institution; published in Herbert F. Vetter (ed.), Speak Out Against the NewRight ( Boston: Beacon Press, 1982)

    • Olwyn 24.1
      1 August 2014 at 12:46 pm

      …seems like Hitler had quite a connection with Catholicism

      That looks to me to be drawing a long bow. He was an Austrian, and baptised Catholic, but most historians say that he had washed his hands of the religion by the time he was a young adult. When I read Kershaw’s biography of him, I thought that his world view seemed in part shaped by a sort of bastardised reading of Nietzsche, and at some point he did give Mussolini a leather bound set of the complete works of Nietzsche as a gift.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany

    • Clemgeopin 24.2
      2 August 2014 at 12:03 am

      EVEN if he was a ‘catholic’, he could NOT have been a TRUE catholic because what Hitler DID were NOT based on the teachings of Jesus nor the Catholic church. By the way, that chap in Zimbabwe too is a catholic I think. So are other so called ‘CHRISTIAN’ (born as) leaders such as Mussolini, Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt, Truman (atomic bomb dropper), Mafia dons, Putin, Bill English etc etc!

  25. joe90 25
    1 August 2014 at 1:29 pm

    Moral people….
    //

    “There is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza,” the men can be seen chanting as part of a roughly formed song that also included the stanzas “I hate all the Arabs” and “Gaza is a cemetery.”

    The mob also called for Israeli Arabs to be stripped of their citizenship.

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/watch-far-right-israelis-celebrate-gaza-kids-deaths/

  26. phillip ure 26
    1 August 2014 at 1:49 pm

    “..Independent Think Tank: Marijuana Legalization in Colorado Is a Success..

    ..The Brookings Institution said Colorado’s system addresses ‘key concerns-..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.alternet.org/drugs/independent-think-tank-marijuana-legalization-colorado-success

    • phillip ure 26.1
      1 August 2014 at 2:04 pm

      and a warning/cautionary-tale on how not to do it..

      ..canada seems to have screwed up..somewhat..

      http://www.alternet.org/drugs/closer-look-canadas-new-mmj-regulatory-system

      • The Al1en 26.1.1
        1 August 2014 at 2:13 pm

        The ‘fail’ only seems to be in the minds of those who see restrictions on small time growers entering the production marketplace as a bad thing.
        I’m sure most lefties would agree that a nationalised pot industry, employing workers, would be the best way to go, taking the profits away from privateers, thus ensuring revenues are collected and redistributed by the state.

        Agree or not?

    • Chooky 26.2
      1 August 2014 at 2:14 pm

      phillip ure ….lol…if all else fails you can go out on a high….(personally i would hit the whiskey in preference to the puff)…here is something for you to contemplate on

      ‘2014 and 1914’

      By Keith Rankin / August 1, 2014

      “Historian Nicholas Boyle (in ’2014, How to Survive the Next World Crisis’) foresees a big event happening this decade that will define the global geopolitical environment this century, much as World War 1 created the politics of the 20th century….

  27. grumpy 27
    1 August 2014 at 3:26 pm

    Meanwhile, from Ukraine, as from my friend Konstantin this morning – strangely unreported by our media…

    “Here’s more to the riddle namely “What the f… is going on?” – A fair part of the regular Ukrainian army, about 5000 troops, is boxed in at the Russian border by the separatists. They are in a “kessel”, being constantly shelled and supplied only by air. The Ukrainian commanders asked the Russian Border Control to let the wounded Ukrainian soldiers into Russia, mend them in the local Russian hospitals and return them back across the border. Russia DID THAT!

    Ukraine has a big problem. The problem is a deadly combination of craftiness and stupidity.

    Konstantin”

    Who can argue?

    • Chooky 27.1
      1 August 2014 at 4:04 pm

      @ Grumpy

      You probably won’t agree with this analysis Grumpy…but it looks plausible to me

      ‘Malaysian Airlines MH17: Who Stands to Gain?’

      By Dr. Chandra Muzaffar ( who is a prominent Malaysian scholar and author, President of the International Movement for a Just World (JUST).)

      “The Russian military has released military monitoring data which challenge allegations circulating in the media pertaining to the MH 17 crash in the Donetsk Region of Eastern Ukraine on July 17 2014. Questions have been raised about Kiev military jets tracking MH 17, Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the deployment of Buk missile systems. Kiev should also release military data on the circumstances leading to the crash. So should the Pentagon which reportedly has relevant intelligence and satellite data….

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh-17-who-stands-to-gain/5393540

  28. Papa Tuanuku 28
    1 August 2014 at 4:27 pm

    How come they don’t report like this on stories on Whaleoil or The Taxpayer Unity Party or D Farrier?

    Documents released to Labour strategist and blogger Rob Salmond by Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee’s office show most of the 14 projects have a benefit to cost ratio of less than four with five in the range of 0 to 2.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11302678

    • Jenny Kirk 28.1
      1 August 2014 at 8:26 pm

      Because that’s too hurtful to the Nats, Papa T. WhaleOil and his cohorts prefer to make things up.
      Its easier for them, and it takes the heat off the Nats !

  29. greywarbler 29
    1 August 2014 at 4:56 pm

    A quote from the Te Ara history on education. Applicable again?

    From the mid-1930s, however, reforms led to a spirit of optimism. With the abolition of the Proficiency exam in 1936, primary teachers could explore subjects in more depth, and allow children to do more self-directed project work. Better understanding of child psychology encouraged teaching tailored to each child’s individual abilities and nee

  30. millsy 30
    1 August 2014 at 5:21 pm

    The vultures have been circling round Christchurch’s assets for some time….and in that fine tradition of centre -left leaders, Lianne is going to let them have them.

    It looks like CHC is going to sell the most important parts of a city (power grid, airport, seaport etc) to pay for a stadium and convention center.

    Gotta love this country…

    • Colonial Viper 30.1
      1 August 2014 at 5:44 pm

      It looks like CHC is going to sell the most important parts of a city (power grid, airport, seaport etc) to pay for a stadium and convention center.

      Oh ffs you have to be kidding

      Why not just transfer the funds to the NZRFU

    • Chooky 30.2
      1 August 2014 at 5:49 pm

      @ millsey… that is bad!

      ….”power grid, airport, seaport etc” are precisely the things Christchurch MUST hang on to long term for the people of Christchurch and Canterbury….they dont need a new stadium and convention centre….

      Lianne Dalziel and the Council must hang on until after the Election ….and then Christchurch must be supported by the new Labour coalition government to hang on to its assets…anything else is a sell out of the people!

      This should be an Election issue!

      Reminds me of the Shock Doctrine…on disaster capitalism

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iW1SHPgUAQ

      • Ergo Robertina 30.2.1
        1 August 2014 at 7:57 pm

        Lianne on TV3 tonight is pushing asset sales. It’s Lianne’s agenda that needs to be resisted, rather than being trusted to ‘hang on’ to the people’s assets until a change of government.
        She ‘honestly’ doesn’t believe people will allow their rates to go up, rather than framing it as the asset sales being the no go.

        • Colonial Viper 30.2.1.1
          1 August 2014 at 8:06 pm

          face palm

          Why is she not pushing for govt to fund the shortfall instead of gifting strategic assets to big corporate investors.

          • Colonial Viper 30.2.1.1.1
            1 August 2014 at 8:14 pm

            And why is this proposal for Christchurch appearing now, weeks before the General Election.

            • Ergo Robertina 30.2.1.1.1.1
              1 August 2014 at 9:32 pm

              Good question, National would prefer it after the election. Maybe Lianne is somehow playing fifth columnist and has the public interest at heart after all, by bringing this out before the election?
              I would have thought it’s the opportunity for her to highlight the difference between National’s TINA and Labour’s new economic thinking, and to remind the electorate of National’s failed asset sales programme.
              Incidentally it was sickening to hear Ryall’s valadictory the other day bragging about having perhaps privatised more assets than Prebble. They have no shame.

              • Colonial Viper …
                1 August 2014 at 10:11 pm

                I would have thought it’s the opportunity for her to highlight the difference between National’s TINA and Labour’s new economic thinking, and to remind the electorate of National’s failed asset sales programme.

                You may have thought that, but is she doing it?

                Otherwise it will simply be a reminder that senior people in the Labour Party are open to the prospect of asset sales and can’t come up with alternatives.

                • Murray Olsen …
                  2 August 2014 at 2:27 am

                  That’s how I see it, CV. Too many senior figures in Labour are still in love with the seductive TINA. She is doing a real disservice to Labour in terms of showing that it also gives stuff to the rich, just when they’re pretending they don’t in order to get votes. She could lose them a few votes, and possibly tip the scales in the election.

                  I’d rather they could keep pretending they don’t gift our stuff to corporates, and get elected. Then Mana and the Greens would be in a position to stop them.

          • Mary 30.2.1.1.2
            1 August 2014 at 11:10 pm

            She was part of the labour party for over twenty years so we shouldn’t be surprised.

        • RedBaronCV 30.2.1.2
          1 August 2014 at 8:15 pm

          FFS helping to minimise labours presence in CHCH.
          I rather felt that the people who voted for her wanted her to nix the stadium and convention centre and put the available funds into real infrastructure.
          It’s a bit ike transmissin gully in Wellington, we need some creative thinking to get us out of these Nact promises that they don’t have to find the funds for.

          • Draco T Bastard 30.2.1.2.1
            1 August 2014 at 9:25 pm

            I rather felt that the people who voted for her wanted her to nix the stadium and convention centre and put the available funds into real infrastructure.

            Yep, she and the council should have said that Chch had better things to spend money on than the stadium and convention centre and that if Gerry Brownlee wanted them so bad that he could fund the bloody things.

          • Ergo Robertina 30.2.1.2.2
            1 August 2014 at 9:50 pm

            Yes; creative thinking rather than yet more TINA.

            • Mary 30.2.1.2.2.1
              1 August 2014 at 11:13 pm

              But that’s labour through and through. We have a duty to ensure the voting public understand this.

        • tricledrown 30.2.1.3
          1 August 2014 at 10:20 pm

          National are Blackmailing Lianne

          • Ergo Robertina 30.2.1.3.1
            1 August 2014 at 10:44 pm

            Can you elaborate?
            It does seem odd, Bob Parker pushed back quite hard on asset sales. As he said last May on TV3’s FirstLine:

            “In terms of our portfolio and the level of income we have, they generate around 15 percent of our rates’ cashflow.
            “If you take them away, you get some money you can spend on capital projects, but your operating costs – which are met through rates – are no longer subsidised to the tune of about 15 or so percent. In essence, you don’t really save anything in the fairly closed economic system that we find ourselves in.”

  31. The Al1en 31
    1 August 2014 at 6:41 pm

    BadUSB

    Security researchers have found a fundamental flaw that could affect billions of USB devices. This flaw is so serious that, now that it has been revealed, you probably shouldn’t plug a USB device into your computer ever again.

    http://www.extremetech.com/computing/187279-undetectable-indefensible-security-flaw-found-in-usb-its-time-to-get-your-ps2-keyboard-out-of-the-cupboard

  32. Anne 32
    1 August 2014 at 8:24 pm

    Surprised the following has not been mentioned on TS.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/251191/government-called-to-account-for-spy-claims"

    NSA engineer in NZ Feb. 2013 to discuss how to intercept traffic on the Sth. Cross fibre optic cable.

    And a three months later John Key introduces legislation to enable the GCSB to extend their electronic spying capabilities.

    Coincidence? You bet it isn’t.

    Relevant quote given at time by John Key.

    Firstly, it will continue to collect foreign intelligence but it will not be allowed to spy on New Zealanders. Secondly, it will give the GCSB a legal mandate to assist the police, Defence Force and the Security Intelligence Service. Thirdly, it will extend the GCSB’s cyber-security functions to encompass protecting private-sector cyber systems.

    • Hami Shearlie 32.1
      1 August 2014 at 11:14 pm

      Very strange that the very day the American NSA man came to call, that John Key was not in Parliament, and he’s been strangely missing from our tv screens for two days now! And right when this info has come out about the selling of the huge farm near Taupo to the Chinese firm who bought the Crafar Farms! Must be Colin Craig paying Key back for not gifting him the seat of East Coast Bays!

  33. Paul 33
    1 August 2014 at 9:13 pm

    I wonder if this story would have legs if the Editor of the Herald had not been on the plane…..

    “New Zealand Herald editor-in-chief Tim Murphy, who was on board the flight, tweeted that the takeoff was aborted “at speed mid-runway”.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11302700
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11301087

  34. Draco T Bastard 34
    1 August 2014 at 9:20 pm

    Tax haven buyers set off property alarm in England and Wales

    At least £122bn of property in England and Wales is held through companies in offshore tax havens where ownership is difficult to trace, a Financial Times analysis of Land Registry data has found.
    The figure – more than the total value of all housing stock in Westminster and the City of London – reveals for the first time the detail of the scale of offshore property ownership in the UK. It raises concern that London property in particular has become a haven for dirty money from around the world.

    IMO, the chances of the same happening here, now that NZ has become a tax haven, is probably pretty high.

    Link is FT so you’ll have to sign in/up to read the article.

  35. lprent 35
    2 August 2014 at 3:55 am

    Test comment to see if the replication is working.

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