Open mike 01/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, September 1st, 2014 - 333 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

333 comments on “Open mike 01/09/2014”

  1. Paul 1

    It’ll be very interesting to see how the Herald runs the Dirty Politics story, as they appear to be deep in the mire.
    Very much doubt they’ll be using the headline ‘Democracy under attack’ despite much more of a case for that banner than when they used it previously.
    NZ citizens need better media than this rag.

  2. bloody hell..!

    ..the herald has done a positive editorial on/about john minto..et al..

    • tc 2.1

      Aww is granny doting over a forgotten nephew, never mind she will be back to the randian rants in no time at all.

      Granny didn’t need the slater with Armstrong, tawdry, Kerry etc but did so anyway as its all about helping the govt not actually reporting facts.

      Thanks nicky hager ! Suck it up nz you have been schooled and treated with contempt.

    • Tiger Mountain 2.3

      Minto does not need belated puff pieces from the rag that has slagged him off for most of his adult life. John’s dad lived to 97, passing just recently, so if DNA has anything to do with it…

      33 years ago this Sept 12 was the final Springbok tour test at Eden Park. John fought for social justice before that momentous day and ever since. Others even Red Squad leader Ross Muerant have recanted, but he has held the line. While not a party aligned marxist he has made it pretty clear where he stands politically.

      He drew attention to the Pan African Congress when most lefties supported the more nationalist ANC (as evinced by reading the ANC Feedom Charter) and has not shied from pointing out the travails and class blunders of post apartheid South Africa.

      Mana is a movement of the people, Internet Mana a strategic electoral alliance with a shelf life. I hope he does make it to parliament, the bourgeois parliament will still be there but nonetheless Minto will bring a perspective that is so needed to help spark up the revolutionary embers.

      • crocodill 2.3.1

        Soon after John Minto “joined” the Mana Party I watched an interview on Triangle TV about his decision (and his life) and he was less than totally convinced that Mana was right for him. He said something along the lines of, “…either it’ll work, or I’ve made the biggest mistake of my political career…”. Probably not those exact words, since he seemed to hold to “old” communist standards about what he can or can’t do in politics. Theoretically, “communists” don’t join political parties as such, their job isn’t to tell people what to think or do, but report what the people say they are at any given time. This is a long long way from what our political system thinks its job might be.

  3. disturbed 3

    We need a Public Service Broadcaster, PSB as USA has, we have a voice of government and no voice of the people.

    Another example of Joyce-Goebbels control of our hearts & minds by corrupt means.

    We need urgently to get rid of these criminals.

    • karol 3.1

      PSB is pretty marginal in the US. Isn’t it subscription based?

      • disturbed 3.1.1

        Not subscription based.

        Public donations only.

        Donors who whose are credited over broadcaster network, they have foundations giving good backing though, who are not aligned.

        • karol 3.1.1.1

          Last night, Julie Anne Genter said that a Canadian report in 2011, showed funding for public service broadcasting in NZ was 2nd lowest level of 18 countries – the US was lowest.

          She said in the US media environment was toxic – Faux News a joke, even CNN has gone for infotainment. She said public service broadcasting needs adequate funding.

          The US is just not a good example of how public service broadcasting can make an impact on the media environment. The donations approach just doesn’t cut it.

          The Aussie state funded public service broadcasting is a better model.

          • phillip ure 3.1.1.1.1

            i agree..re aussie model..

            ..oh !..to have our own s.b.s/abc…!

            ..and the first thing to do is to take all that heritage programming back from sky…

            ..bring ‘heartland’ back to the heartland..

    • Awww 3.2

      Broadcasting won’t make any difference if the people don’t wake from their apathetic slumber. At that point they start to actively seek out information rather than passively accept it.

      • crocodill 3.2.1

        That would be a major cultural shift for any group within NZ to achieve. From traditional tribal/feudal lines of command (of the last 1000 or so years, give or take a few notable exceptions) all the way out to nuclear family structure, most of it “threatened” and undermined. Going to bed and then waking up in a world like that… pretty intolerable sudden shock I’d say. No internet, no electricity probably – certainly in the beginning, supply would be compromised and unstable. Marx said it’d take four hundred years to arrive at his ideal, via natural evolution, from how he saw it 100 or so years ago. And his version isn’t even remotely the furthest left a people could go to assure “their own information”. In my ever-present opinion, “apathy” doesn’t entirely sum up the reasons people live in their self-constructed realities.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2

        A public broadcasters job would be to help wake people up to what is happening in the country. The present commercial set up hides that in favour of ratings and cheaply imported shows.

  4. Not a PS Staffer 4

    Jail? Gaol? Prison? Which one will Collins serve time in if she, the Justice Minister, is found guilty of as aiding the defence?

    2years? 5 years? Any ideas on how we can do a fund raiser for the Howard Reform League though betting on the sentence she gets?

    Has Hooton asked iPredict to set up a book on Collins’ possible sentence?

  5. Paul 5

    Marcus Lush
    “18 000 Hanover Finance victims.
    Wonder how will they vote now?”

    • mickysavage 5.1

      Yep this story is so bad at so many levels.

      If I was to imagine as damaging a story as possible it would involve the elements of this story including the involvement of Hotchin and perhaps the involvement of a pedophile ring or the black power gang.

      At that stage you can guarantee that National’s campaign was approaching peak cray cray …

      • paul scott 5.1.1

        You are nasty now Presland, you were previously were a gentleman , but thats the Standard for you
        Maybe sell any $NZ you have, talk brave later

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1

          Why so sensitive, paul scott?

          You should ask your main man John Key, he’s the currency speculator who has attacked his own country before.

    • yeshe 5.2

      and someone pointed out yesterday, that’s about 50,000 family and friends who lost half a billion dollars.

      • Bearded Git 5.2.1

        @yeshe: that was me on the number being 50,000. Though why anybody would vote for this corrupt mob now beats me.

        I wonder if there are any interesting emails out there concerning the suspicious $1.6 billion South Canterbury bail out?

        • thatguynz 5.2.1.1

          There are plenty of suspicious things about SCF and the handling of Mr. Hubbard’s case. If they come to light (ie. if the MSM finally stop actively refusing to expose the details) then all bets are off for our friend Mr Key 🙂 And English, and Power for that matter. From what I’ve read and heard it is a veritable powder keg.

        • dv 5.2.1.2

          Dimpost Comment 53 Victoria Adams put up a video by Paul Caruthers re SCF and some dodgy timing by govt
          It is a 25 min listen.

          http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/new-shit-has-come-to-light/#comments

          Some key pts from memory
          English and Key renewed the Govt guarantee the day after they got into power against treasury advise

          The got Hubard to put a couple of his own valuable cmp into SCF – scale and helicopter line, which he did willingly.

          Lotsa comments made that hubbard was fraudulent- thus reducing the co value!!
          Day after the assets were transferred? they charged him with fraud

          Power ‘illegally’ used an act to freeze the assets

          Westpac go quite a lot from the Govt under the guarantee
          Power moved to Westpac
          Sold the a very valuable asset (Scales) to Keys nxt door neighbour for 44m
          Later listed on stock market for 144m?

          And when Hubbard died in the crash, he had a court case pending against the govt.
          Apparently the autopsy reports and all the file re the the case are sealed!!!

          This is some that I recall, and I can’t be sure about some of the detail.
          But It is well worth a listen especially by those who might know more than me.

        • marg 5.2.1.3

          just listened to this not sure how authentic it is but once again raises some questions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9CE1a4pSeQ#t=1490

        • paul scott 5.2.1.4

          emails boring, mostly about farming, you know, how to make a living, wouldn’t interest you people

    • Not a PS Staffer 5.3

      There is a bigger scandle possibly lurking behind the attacks on the SFO and the FMA. Many bankers, lawyers and their clients bought South Canterbury Finance Bonds at 70c which Bill English redeemed at $1.00 a month later.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10670247
      “A private equity fund associated with rich-lister businessman George Kerr is to receive a $100 million taxpayer-funded payout from the Government in order to make the receivership of South Canterbury Finance run more smoothly.
      But the Crown’s $1.6 billion payout to 35,000 depositors will include a $350 million payment to NZX-listed bondholders.
      Mint Asset Management’s Shane Solly said it was outrageous that some investors had been able to buy the bonds at a discount last week only to have them paid out yesterday. “Those bonds were trading at quite deep discounts. Those people that paid 70c are [now getting a] dollar-something return.” NZ Herald 1st Sept 2010.

      Roger Kerr is a mate of Simon Botherway, then head of the Financial Market Authority, whose resignation David Cunliffe demanded on the 21st September 2010. Botherway resigned the following March to head investments in ANZ Wealth. Botherway was no 2 to John Key at Bankers Trust. http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/09/21/mr-botherway-must-step-aside/

      Huge amounts of Taxpayers money was doled out to people close to John Key and massive amounts of quick profits were made arising out of Government decisions and decisions of Botherway.

      With the shocking revelatation of the past days and weeks about the proposensity of Key ‘s cabinet to use the powers of Government to aid friends there is a need for an enquiry into the management of John Key’s “blind” trust.

      • thatguynz 5.3.1

        +1 – the very tip of the iceberg 🙂

      • yeshe 5.3.2

        And how many can be accounted for in the blind trusts of Key and Double Dipton English, and all their avaricious cabinet and mates ??

        Filthy business.

        Maybe under our new govt it can be investigated properly, without fear of retribution.

        • Draco T Bastard 5.3.2.1

          It’s really starting to sound like the last 6 years of this government need to be investigated for multiple counts of unethical and illegal behaviour by this government.

          • blue leopard 5.3.2.1.1

            Yes, they have been a ‘tricky’ bunch in all

            #teamtricky perhaps?

          • Draco T Bastard 5.3.2.1.2

            And now Act has this to say about their possible coalition partners:

            The con in conservative is for con.

            And I bet that they’ll still be enthusiastic to get into government with both parties of them.

    • paul scott 5.4

      Conservative. centre right, thats how we vote

  6. what was causing the comment-‘problem’..?

  7. tricledrown 7

    Key admitted under hard questioning from Guy Espiner that he received information from Slater about who visited Dotcom !
    This shows Key is as corrupt as Collins !
    After all the Denials!

  8. Paul 8

    Espiner had Key on the ropes on RNZ.

    • tc 8.1

      Go hard Espiner now is the time to show you deserve a role in any revamped RNZ.

    • Lanthanide 8.2

      Once again, this is why I think Guyon is a good interviewer. It seems a lot of people around here don’t like it when he puts the hard graft on politicians they support, though.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1

        Haven’t seen anyone complaining about that. They’ve been complaining about the fact that he lets off the politicians that he likes.

      • David H 8.2.2

        It’s not the Hard graft I object to. It’s the patsy fluff questions he was bringing out for the Right. he’s only gone troppo on them in the last coupla weeks. So he knows on which side his bread’s buttered.

      • TheContrarian 8.2.3

        + 1 to Lanth

  9. tricledrown 9

    Key is digging a deeper and deeper!
    Hooton is changing his tune from yesterday!
    He must have had a big tune up over night!
    Hooton squealing like a pig spinning like a weasel!
    Now shifting the blame to Eaglston!

    • karol 9.1

      Yes. Hooton seems to be protecting Ede – wants him to stay in place – and wants Eagleson to take the fall for him.

      • Tracey 9.1.1

        Hooton right in the loop, hearing about the email from Odgers to the PM’s office from a “staffer (low level)”… Odgers is ACT… Hooton has ACT sympathies… Maybe 1 + 1 = 3 but maybe not?

    • David H 9.2

      Yeah Hooton’s only out for Hooton. Unfortunately for him, he’s Donkey deep in this.

  10. disturbed 10

    KEY-CORRUPT

    This rhymes,

    Are there any poets that can marry these two words as a jazzy
    epitaph.

    We should have a law to ban such individuals with ruthless hedge fund trading past, (or present) practices to be either in Government but most importantly our head of State! P.M.

    • Inky 10.1

      Actually it doesn’t rhyme and anyway I prefer KEY-RUPT, as in “Key-rupt as a right-wing network”.

  11. tricledrown 11

    Key and his Cronies have found out to be phonies

  12. disturbed 12

    Kathyn Ryan is a dickhead, talking to Nicky Hager on MR today she really is asleep behind the wheel, and has a lousy Journalistic integrity.

    • i think you mean susie ferguson..

      ..tho’ such criticisms of ryan are valid..

      • Tracey 12.2.1

        Did you catch Guyon’s interview with the Liar in Chief? Have a listen cos it appears to me the Prime Minister’s Office, through its delegate, The Prime Minister, admitted Slater was his source for Peters and Norman have visited DotCom’s mansion?

        Just after 7am this morning.

        • karol 12.2.1.1

          He didn’t actually admit it. But his manner of refusing to answer the direct question pretty much pointed to that.

          • Tracey 12.2.1.1.1

            I think he did toward the end… he may have said “yea but” or somethinglike that?

          • tricledrown 12.2.1.1.2

            Karol he said he used information from Cameron Slater for political purposes which is am admission!
            Key by admitting that is admitting to be deeply involved in this corruption!
            Key can not have it both ways!
            Hooton threw Key under the Bus from last Tuesday till Yesterday now Both Key and Hooton are lining up Eaglston to be the next scapegoat!

        • veutoviper 12.2.1.2

          Yes I did hear that interview and Key’s slip/admission re the (alleged) only matter that he used Slater as a source – who visited KDC’s mansion.

          Here is the link to Guyon’ s interview with Key for anyone who missed it. Note the ambiguous title of this segment “Labour Party wants Collins’ office sealed”. It starts with a very short section with Cunliffe – and then the Key interview takes up almost all the remainder starting at about 0.55 in.

          http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20147869/labour-party-wants-collins'-office-sealed

          I very much doubt that Slater was the only source for Key to know who visited KDC….

          • Lanthanide 12.2.1.2.1

            Wayne Tempero (KDC’s former bodyguard) has been communicating with Slater for months. It is extremely likely that Wayne was the ultimate source of the information, and since we know he has been talking to Slater…

            • veutoviper 12.2.1.2.1.1

              Agreed re Tempero; but my comment was that I doubt that Slater was the only (underlined) source.

              And something else that has popped into my mind once or twice was whether Tempero has played a ‘two way’ game re his contacts with Slater.

      • disturbed 12.2.2

        Opps’ so many deadhead so called Journo’s nowadays we are all getting confused out here.

    • CnrJoe 12.3

      who’s asleep at the keyboard disturbed?

      • bad politics 12.3.1

        That was how the PMs links to WO were first ‘discovered/admitted’, because ppl were asking how he got the information about who visited KDC, because there was speculation that he got the information from SIS/Police/GCSB, so Key came clean (or made up a story, who knows?) that WO was the source & Key spoke to WO regularly. WO replied something like ‘If the PM says i’m the source then I guess I am the source’.

  13. left for dead 13

    So nice to wake up to a beautiful morning,then to here Numbnuts key wobbling all over the place on natradio.Should think he will fall.everyone keep the pressure on please.

  14. North 14

    Monty Python
    Sound Like Mupp-et

    ShonKey Python
    Found Corrup-et

    One Good People
    Bad enough

    Two Good People
    Out it snuff !

  15. Tracey 15

    If you are still wondering why, over all the things about which there could be an enquiry, it’s this particular allegation against Collins?

    The quote below shows the Prime Minister’s office has a glowing statement from Iain Rennie about how much Collins felt positively about Feeley. So chief witness? Head of State Services Commission, case closed. Nothing to see here at the end of the day and we need to be as comfortable with that as the Prime Minster (and his Orifice)

    “Meanwhile, State Services Commissioner Iain Rennie said he has been contacted over the past 24 hours by the Prime Minister’s office about the matter.

    Mr Rennie said he is extremely concerned by an allegation that a minister has associated with third parties to discuss influencing his assessment of a public service chief executive. If true, it would be entirely unacceptable.

    But he said there is no evidence of that.

    He said he told the Mr Key’s office that Ms Collins had a positive view of Mr Feeley’s performance throughout her time as minister responsible for the SFO.”

    • North 15.1

      Too early surely for the State Services Commissioner to be ‘opining’ as to substance here…….not that the incumbent should ever ‘opine’ simpliciter. Lest the public ‘opine’ that its servant the State Services Commissioner is of a particular predisposition.

      • Tracey 15.1.1

        Of course, as peter’s says but you don’t think Key would have ordered this enquiry unless he thought the deck was stacked?

    • Hami Shearlie 15.2

      What Judith Collins told Rennie about her views on Feeley and what she did publicly in her role as Justice Minister does not mean that she held the same views of Feeley privately!! Every word she says is suspect now!

      • Tracey 15.2.1

        I am referring to evidence and the weight given to it. Rennie, will be regarded as a witness of some weight, i imagine.

        If there are more emails and they include collins that is different but not at the moment.

    • Clemgeopin 15.3

      What an idiot this Rennie guy is, trying to close the case even before the inquiry starts!

  16. Tracey 16

    Oh and remember when the smearing of Hager was that DotCom was the Hacker? The revelation of the Hacker to a major news outlet and it turns out it wasn’t DotCom. Apologies anyone?

    • weka 16.1

      Has the hacker been identified publicly?

      • Tracey 16.1.1

        No BUT surely whoever is dealing with him(her) knows it is NOT KimDotCom?

        • weka 16.1.1.1

          Not if they haven’t identified themselves.

          • Tracey 16.1.1.1.1

            Well, I am probably being naive but surely before running any stories using that material, they would have spoken or met with the “Hacker” and verified for themselves the identiy. I can’t believe the legal department wouldn’t demand that?

            • yeshe 16.1.1.1.1.1

              Tracey .. the Herald explained they spent up to a week verifying the person delivering them emails as the original hacker, including to the satisfaction of the legals.

              They did not outline the exact details, but it was clear they never had a face to face meeting.

        • yeshe 16.1.1.2

          Morning all !

          1. Nicky Hager seemed genuinely shocked when Kim Dotcom was suggested as our friend, the hacker.

          2. Kim has denied it, and so far in his NZ history, he has not been shown to have lied a single time.

          3. I think it’s a red herring … and just once last week, I heard Nicky finally I heard referring to ‘him’ ( at his public meeting).

          Cherchez la femme ? Cherchez l’homme ? No matter now so long as the material keeps on coming.

          This whole business reminds me of Jeffrey Archer’s book, Not a Penny More, Not a Penny Less. I am not a fan of Archer and his dealings, but the book is brilliant and to be recommended. ( Must add I read it before his great downfall, else I would not have ever bothered.)

          Early in his life Archer and some friends were cunningly conned out of substantial sums of money. The book is the story of their utu .. and it is very, very clever. As the title explains, they wished only to seize back exactly the amount stolen from them.

          Our hacker has explained that when her/his personal motive is understood, it will lead directly to her/him, and only her/him.

          So this justice is being eked line by line; leaking drops which became puddles which are becoming lakes which will become a waterfall — oh, careful now, there’s a rowing scull with some men in blue getting swamped by the current …. if you get my drift !

          Bring it on Rawshark, please. I admire you immensely and feel deeply indebted to you.

          • karol 16.1.1.2.2

            Apparently at the Christchurch WORD Festival, Hager referred to the hacker as “him”. Dom Post report on it here.

            And THIS:

            A packed room at the WORD Christchurch festival was silent as Hager described secretly meeting the hacker and Dirty Politics source in public parks, convincing him not to release his information over Twitter.

            I find it hard to imagine KDC would have met Hager in public parks and not been noticed.

            • yeshe 16.1.1.2.2.1

              “I find it hard to imagine KDC would have met Hager in public parks and not been noticed.”

              Almost certain Karol! At the very least the SIS would have released their photographs of the meetings to Cameron Slater for immediate publication !

          • veutoviper 16.1.1.2.3

            Whaledump has been back on Twitter in the last 24 hours – supposedly having returned from holiday in Vanuatu (Tui ad?).

            Yesterday, he/she denied that they were the source of the email leading to Collins’ downfall.

            This morning (an hour ago) , again reiterating “Thank you for your patience. As I have said, this isn’t all about party politics.”

            I like Whaledump’s dry sense of humour evident in some tweets. Whoever it is, they are very astute, write well and know how to play things out. (Also quick to take responsibility when the first dump included private information that should have been redacted as not being in the public interest.)

            Somehow, the style* has a certain familiarity about it and I would not be surprised if it is someone we will recognise if whaledump’s ID comes out.

            * But the style is different to KDC’s, IMO.

            • Tracey 16.1.1.2.3.1

              I particularly liked the quip about being back and had anything happened while they were away

            • yeshe 16.1.1.2.3.2

              just love and respect the dry and elegant humour, sparse as it is.

              Just occurred to me that Rawshark had been planning a promised release over the weekend, but possibly held back as the Odgers email filled the news bringing about Collins fall. Rawshark has repeated that email release was nothing to do with whaledump.

              Maybe today ? The facebook comms of Slater and Collins were suggested ….

      • Lanthanide 16.1.2

        The hacker (calling themselves “Rawshark”) is in direct communication with both The Herald and Fairfax. Neither has said that the hacker is KDC, and I suspect they probably would have if that were the case. Not sure if either of them has ruled it out either, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they had (since it is of course, not KDC, much as Key and Slater might like it to be).

  17. RedLogix 17

    Meanwhile – exactly 100 years later – Europe is on the brink of chaos again.

    Only this time, through an utmost fear of the devastating consequences, there will be changes in the world order.

    • crocodill 17.1

      That’s an improvement though, yeah? No?

      If we stop the comparative historical clock somewhere around 1900, moving forward from there, then “the people of Europe” (gross generalisation lol) are in no way a slave to a psychic contagion that would have them line up across tiny patches of no man’s land and machine gun each other to death for Father/Motherland, the King/Queen, the identity of their region, or colonial interests, among other motivations.

      • RedLogix 17.1.1

        True – but they might happily sit in deep bunkers pressing buttons and wiggling joysticks of death.

        History does not so much repeat – as rhyme.

  18. cogito 18

    No more government by the corrupt for the corrupt.

    NZ needs to rediscover its soul after six years of Key-led natzism.

    • disturbed 18.1

      100%++++++++ Cognito.

      We believe the global elite is causing all this degradation of our world “so called order”.

      The capitalistic system is failing and these Bilderberg NAZI regenerated agenda plotters have invited Key to their 2011 annual conference so he is in it Don-key deep.

      Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported
      //creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
      ( We have the full attendance list.)

      Why didn’t PM tell NZ he was into Bilderberg?

      List of Bilderberg participants 4
      New Zealand
      • John Key (2011-2012), Prime Minister of New Zealand

      http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bilderberg

      No Bilderberg meeting agenda has ever been made public. “It is the epitome of low-profile dark ops, a shadow government hidden in a doorway.” According to critics and close observers, it’s agenda is to weaken all world leadership but their own. It is also, according to a U.S. law called the Logan Act, [15] illegal:

    • Rosie 18.2

      “No more government by the corrupt for the corrupt.”

      Excellent line!

  19. yeshe 19

    Hooton twice yesterday on Q&A said the emails re Collins he was told about last Wednesday were much worse than what was released — much worse, he repeated.

    This morning on DimPost ( link on rt hand side of this page)

    “The allegation that some insiders – most prominently Matthew Hooton – are putting around is that as-yet-unreleased documents show Collins passing on information about the prosecution to Slater, who then passed it onto Hotchin’s defense team.”

    I am going to have to buy a popcorn maker at this rate …

    • Lanthanide 19.1

      Hooton on MR this morning repeated that statement and said he suspected it was a case of chinese whispers – he thinks that the email that was released was “the” email, just that its contents weren’t as bad as had been rumoured.

      • Tracey 19.1.1

        So he was shooting from the lip about stuff he knew nothing of for sure?

        Surely NOT?

      • Rodel 19.1.2

        Chinese whispers? Probably not the most appropriate ethnic expression to use at the moment Mr Hooton .

        • Tracey 19.1.2.1

          I think he would prefer that to “I relied on unsubstantiated rumours and freely passed them on, including to the media.”

        • tricledrown 19.1.2.2

          Hootons Chinese whispers would be Close friend and Con-fidant!
          Cathy Odgers from Hong Kong!
          This Machiavellian Hoodwinker Hooton’s plotting to seal off John Key from his self made scandal is coming unstuck has Eagleston got the balls to stand up to Key or is he going to be the next Oliver North!
          Odgers Slater Banks Collins Hotchin Orividas Liu Garrick Graham Farrer Ede Eaglseton Lusk Berend de Boer Joyce ” all Keys the PMs Henchmen ”
          Key is holding on by a very thin rope that’s constructed by lies and hair thin alibi’s
          I was out of the country BS his office would be in touch all that time its amazing how he is in touch making sure his photo’s playing golf with Obama are instant news but the running of the country can be left to a few office staff!
          Key who is everywhere has to fill in for ministers muckups suddenly has another BrainFade but can remember every mistake Helen Clarks govt did when he shifts the blame!

        • Matthew Hooton 19.1.2.3

          What is the less racist equivalent? Would prefer it.

          • Tracey 19.1.2.3.1

            You could dally with the truth…

            I relied on unsubstantiated rumours and freely passed them on, including to the media without caring if it was true or not

          • Lanthanide 19.1.2.3.2

            ‘gossip’ or ‘grapevine’ or ‘scuttlebutt’, but missing the same connotations, but probably acceptable in the context you’re using it.

          • tricledrown 19.1.2.3.3

            Machiavellian Henchman.
            Clutching at straws now!
            You are close friends with Cathy Odgers ACT longtime funder and board member or are you having a Brain Fade!

          • Chris 19.1.2.3.4

            Thanks for clearing up the truth about the level contact between Slater and Key.

          • yeshe 19.1.2.3.5

            all of this going on, and this is what you choose to post about ?? seriously, matthew. don’t you have some pants to mend from sitting on the fence ?

          • Puddleglum 19.1.2.3.6

            There’s quite a few but probably less well-known:

            The game is also known as broken telephone, operator, grapevine, whisper down the lane, gossip, don’t drink the milk, secret message, the messenger game and pass the message.

          • veutoviper 19.1.2.3.7

            You might like to check out Whaledump’s Twitter, MH. He has two message re you and what you have been saying, posted in the last 15 minutes.

          • yeshe 19.1.2.3.8

            Matthew ? You’re famous. Whaledump has just twice tweeted about you !

            Whaledump @whaledump · 25m
            There are no rumours. @MatthewHootonNZ made them up to ratfuck Judith Collins. And those reporting his rumours are helping him.

            Whaledump @whaledump · 26m
            Have you learnt nothing from #DirtyPolitics? @MatthewHootonNZ has no idea what I plan to do. How could he?

          • tricledrown 19.1.2.3.9

            Mathew to be more Cathay Pacific Odgers is the source of your whisper on Wednesday !

          • yeshe 19.1.2.3.10

            nb. Matthew … in the interest of accuracy, which we all strive for, should be either “a less racist” equivalent, or “the least racist” equivalent. you are all about accuracy after all ?

          • Chris 19.1.2.3.11

            Is Cathy Odgers still employed by the Jeeves Group? Her profile has been taken down from its website. Give us the low-down, Mr Well-Connected, will you?

            • yeshe 19.1.2.3.11.1

              chris .. hope you are not addressing me that way ?

              Gone — it was in Herald a few days back … announced by her boss. Was on here too i think .. search Jeeves and it shd come up.

              “By mutual consent”, apparently.

              • Chris

                No, am asking Hooton because he’s the one person who knows everyone and everything. Didn’t see the announcement. So now that’s Williams and Odgers who’ve lost employment since all of this. Just a pity RNZ and TVNZ still think Hooton’s a credible “commentator”. Beggars belief, in fact.

          • phillip ure 19.1.2.3.12

            good old-fashioned kiwi-slagging to replace ‘chinese whispers’…?

            ..’gossip’..?

      • Puddleglum 19.1.3

        In looking at the picture of the computer screen with the email on it, it is clear that the email carried on beyond the bottom of the screen.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 19.2

      #whaledump says: There are no rumours. @MatthewHootonNZ made them up to ratfuck Judith Collins. And those reporting his rumours are helping him.

      Hooton’s statements cannot be trusted (well duh!).

  20. Petrus 20

    Armstrong’s Herald piece today: but look at the comments!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11317065

  21. Rosie 21

    What a mind blowing and historical weekend for NZ politics. After all these years the spiders web of corruption has been dusted down from the darkest attic corner of our government and Mummy spider has scuttled away.

    Am verrrrryyyy interested to see how the first Ohariu candidates meeting will play out tonight.

    Mr Dunne, can you still continue to defend this corrupt government you so easily and weasily support?

    • Rodel 21.1

      Rosie- ‘easily and weasily’ That’s good. Very apt.

    • yeshe 21.2

      Good luck tonight –look forward to hearing about how he wriggles now in what is going on.

      Dunne and Dusted !

    • Tracey 21.3

      Maybe put it to him in the context of his family platfrom.

      What SHOULD parents say to their children Mr Dunne? leaders don’t have to be accountable til they choose to be?

      OR

      Mr Key says he has had to fire, reprimand and accept resignations from 8 Ministers for poor behaviour. We know you cannot control the appalling conduct of this Government, it’s staffers and many of its Ministers, because it happened while you were part of this Government, how can you be a buttress against it?

      You say dirty politics isn’t important, policy is, but the tactics coming to light completely undermine integrity and trust in those very policies

      • yeshe 21.3.1

        He was one of the Ministers, wasn’t he ?

        Question: As a ‘willing seller’, do you feel you got your money’s worth, considering the sums of money and favours we now know were available at the time ?

        • Tracey 21.3.1.1

          VERY good yeshe

          He was outside cabinet wasn’t he?

          • yeshe 21.3.1.1.1

            I think so ..

            Party Leader ( very big deal :grin:)
            Minister of Internal Affairs
            Associate Minister of Conservation
            Associate Minister of Health

            • Rosie 21.3.1.1.1.1

              Good points yeshe and Tracey. I would sincerely like to ask him a question (and it would be long the lines of ‘willing seller’ ala yeshe) but I usually get an attack of the nerves speaking publicly. If I can’t I hope someone else does.

              Himself and the Nat candidate, Brett Hudson, can’t ignore what has happened. If they do, they would be doing a disservice to their audience. Never mind the disservice done to the NZ people as a result of the corrupt behaviour of our leaders and representatives.

              • yeshe

                you probably know this, but it’s a good idea is to have your question(s) written for yourself in advance. breathe deeply and slowly .. and know many of us are standing there with you ! Go Rosie !

                ( I survived asking questions to Rob Muldoon .. so Dunne is an easy target, and you are a brave and capable woman !)

                • Rosie

                  Well you’re braver than me if you once confronted Muldoon!

                  Yes, I would write my question down, so as not to get tripped up by my memory under stress 🙂

                  The problem is, there are too many questions to ask Dunne. I would like to know “Have you received money from tobacco companies as alleged in Dirty Politics and if so, how much and did this influence your voting decisions?”

                  One issue of many has been Dunne’s u turn on his support for an cap on interest rates that loan sharks charge. He had planned to vote for Carol Beaumont’s bill that contained this provision, supported it at select committee phase but then voted against it later. He had even had an employee to research on the topic in the beginning and was right behind it. There was an article about it “Interest rate cap campaigner riled” centring on the disappointment of Dunne’s former employee who had done all the research, but that article has been pulled from the kapi mana newspaper site on line, so isn’t available to link.

                  I’m sure he will do his best to distance himself from the scandals of late but he really is little better than they with the ease with which he can make life easier for himself by supporting such a shoneky govt.

                  • yeshe

                    You need to frame your question so it impossible for him not to implicate himself.

                    For example, I’m not suggesting you ask the ‘willing seller’ question I posed above, but can you see there is no possible answer he can give that gives him an escape route ?

                    And if you can elicit some humour from the crowd, he will lose points.

                    I have to go out now, but will be back in a few hours .. and there will be others here who would help if you need it, I’m sure.

                    Ideas only ..

                    Mr Dunne, if I vote for you, am I voting for you to be a ‘willing seller’ on any issue, even if it contradicts your promises today ?

                    Mr Dunne — when you called yourself a ‘willing seller’, can you describe exactly what you meant and what it means for us now for your election promises ?

                    (Fwiw, I think the ‘willing seller’ line is one that will travel with him forever .. maybe you can frame it into the question you want answered re cap rates ..)

                    Back later and good luck !

                    • Rosie

                      Thanks yeshe. I know I’m going to get that thing I do where my voice disappears when it’s needed most, I really do have a phobia about speaking in public. I don’t think I’m going to be asking anything. Quite happy to write letters, make and put up our billboards in public spaces, leaflet the neighbourhood and generally agitate but If Dunne gets thrown the curly questions, they will be coming from someone else.

                      I hope that happens because the candidates meetings have been so poorly advertised I wonder if there will even be anyone there tonight.

                      (Yes, ‘willing seller’ has become his moniker. We’ve used that term in our election billboard campaign. A second board has been stolen btw!)

                      I’m off now too, won’t be back till tomorrow. Thanks for your suggestions and advice 🙂

  22. Tracey 22

    If you had any doubt that newspapers and Media are in the business of business and not the business of investigating and educating

    ” APN News & Media has told the stock exchange it is condsidering ”strategic options” for its NZ publishing assets.

    The company has appointed Grant Samuel to assist in the process, with an IPO and NZX listing of APN New Zealand being one option.

    APN’s NZ print, radio and digital assets include The New Zealand Herald, Newstalk ZB, ZM and GrabOne. “

  23. Tracey 23

    clever observation by “Rex” commenting on Tracy Watkin’s opinion piece this morning

    “if the National Party was so sure its policy was going to win it elections they wouldn’t have been running around organising right wing smear campaigns, would they?”

  24. weka 24

    Lost track of the timeline… has RNZ asked Hooton yet about his involvement in the attack on Feeley? Ryan made a big deal before of asking Hooton about his personal feelings about the PM’s office and how he had been treated by them, but didn’t get round to asking him about his active involvement in dp as opposed to him being a victim of dp.

  25. Tracey 25

    David Parker on Q and A yesterday

    ” The Minister of Justice asserted to be undermining one of the arms of justice. This is very serious. The Prime Minister’s office having been involved in earlier abuses of the Official Information Act. The Prime Minister misrepresenting advice from the Cabinet Office, that he said cleared Judith Collins when she was tied up in that Oravida business where she had a plain conflict of interest in China. This goes to the heart of government. I’m sure this never happened when Bill English was in charge. This is about ethics not rules”

  26. Something interesting I note, the ipredict powered Live Parliament Projection shows National losing seats in the house hand over fist (down to 42.9% from approx 47% before the weekend.)

  27. Puckish Rogue 27

    So has there been any poll with Labour above 30 or National below 45 since this storm in a tea cup started?

    • Tracey 27.1

      You read the polls and let the adults discuss ways to rid governments of corruption.

    • Doesn’t matter. Even if National win the election, they have been mortally wounded.

      After all, Nixon won the first post Watergate election.

      In some respects, it would be better for National if they lost the election.

      • Bearded Git 27.2.1

        +1 Tom.

        Imagine the scenario where Winnie backs Key (which I don’t think he will) only for Key, Collins and friends to be found guilty of corruption or similar at the enquiry being set up that will take place after the election.

        He would have to pull his support for the government=new election.

    • You_Fool 27.3

      Go look at the right wing dominated ipredict market

      • Rosie 27.3.1

        Yep, All you need is the money honey and those IPredict polls are are well and truly skewed.

        • You_Fool 27.3.1.1

          So it is interesting that National dropped about 5-6% over the course of the weekend on that market – shows how much the rich go-getters believe their dear leader

          • Rosie 27.3.1.1.1

            That is interesting. There must be an element of nat voters who are really turned off by the behaviour of their party and government.

            Since Dirty Politics was published and all the you know what has hit the fan I’ve often thought about that group of nat voters who do have some standards and expect some integrity from their party, that old idea of playing fair being at the core of their world view. These would be the trad nat voters, not the new breed of anything goes as long as you get what you want and at whatever price necessary type, of which group type I suspect the two fag lobbyist candidates come from.

            (What kind of feedback would the Party be receiving from it’s most loyal members, as an aside?)

            If we haven’t been so dulled down and happily bloated on our consumerist lifestyle and we still have a national sense of of playing fair hidden beneath the pile of distractions is it possible that the government will be voted out by a collective expression of disgust?

            Even if the most excellent policies being put forward by the Parties of the Left miss the average voter’s radar in the fall out of Slatergate, at least voters have their conscience to guide them.

  28. Ted Blaikie 28

    What we know:
    Collins is at least morally corrupt. She was also the minister responsible for the SFO at the time.

    Mark Hotckin was using his wealth to avoid a criminal prosecution by The SFO and FMA. As part of this effort he was funding a smear campaign and is, therefore, also at least morally corrupt. It stretches credibility that was this was the sum total of his effort to avoid prosecution.

    Bruce Sheppard (Shareholders Association founder and FMA member) was sued by Hotchin for calling him a crook.

    The questions that now need to be answered:

    Why were the criminal charges against Hotckin dropped?
    Was there political input into this decision and if so by whom?
    Did Hotckin make any payments to others involved in the decision making or to the National Party around that time (upfront or back-door)?

    – Follow the money.

    • weka 28.1

      I’m also curious if Hotchin’s has acted illegally with the smear campaign (I assume so), and whether Slater and Odgers are also open to criminal prosecution. Tracey, any thoughts or seen any opinion on this?

      • Tracey 28.1.1

        I was never in criminal law. But so far there is nothing in the public domain from Hotchin himself.

    • Kiwiri 28.2

      Hmm … this is starting to smell bad.
      Dirty Politics contaminating financial market regulation will require further inquiry into Dirty Financial Enforcement.

    • yeshe 28.3

      Surely all of this can only enhance the civil case brought against him/them set down for next year.

      And you refer to Hotchin’s wealth ? In fact, ill-gotten gains by stealing from the 17,000 shareholders he bankrupted. Watch this space.

      (And I wonder how Alliance Finance feels now ? Maybe a PR campaign seduced them into their stupidity ?)

    • Tracey 28.4

      Collins – Pullar’s information going public
      Collins – Pleasants name going public
      Collins – Oravida

      NONE of that is myth

  29. adam 29

    NZ now feels like some bad recreation of the cultural revolution. A perpetual one at that.

    John Key the happy leader, telling kiwis what to think, and purging all who oppose him, by any means necessary.

    People being watched, denouncements, a lying media following the party line and you can just guess that the gang of four (Slatter, Collins, Farrir and Hooton) are watching us all with interest.

    Please note:

    *No Maoists were hurt in the creation of this comment.*

    • Kiwiri 29.1

      John Key the happy leader, telling kiwis what to think, and purging all who oppose him, by any means necessary.

      We do not need JK to tell us what we should be thinking.
      We can think for ourselves, thank you.

  30. Tracey 30

    Remember this from the days when the nats were ignoring DoctCom’s past because he was a poster boy for their new policy?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10668580

    • Rosie 30.1

      Until he became inconvenient!

      And what’s with Key’s description of NZ “It’s like England without the attitude”? What the?

      Didn’t realise we were still “Little Britain”

  31. joe90 31

    It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye a buck.

    The business community has, until now, been watching the Dirty Politics scandals play out with bemusement, some disappointment and a certain degree of detachment.

    But the latest accusations are deeply concerning for those involved in running New Zealand’s capital markets – and covering them.

    The implication of a concerted campaign to undermine regulators like the Serious Fraud Office and the Financial Markets Authority shifts focus right to the integrity of the financial system.

    Any possibility of links to a senior Government minister – it is important to note, she has denied this – is jaw-dropping.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11317033

  32. disturbed 33

    Puckish Rouge,

    What do you know about Bilderberg?

    They run black ops designed to destabilising Governments?

  33. karol 34

    Dears gods, 2 staff members shot in a Wanganui Ashburton WINZ office. What sort of society have we become?

    need for a massive change.

    • Tracey 34.1

      Cue Law and Order lecture

      • Blue 34.1.1

        Rather than worrying about a “Law and Order” lecture, Tracey, it might be a good time to offer sympathy for the dead WINZ workers and their parners, children and families instead.

    • blue leopard 34.2

      Yes, that is sad to hear. (Unsure if it has been confirmed yet)
      Desperation on all sides of the equation.
      Am sorry for the families involved.

      • karol 34.2.1

        Yes. Very sad for friends and families of the victims.

        WINZ front line workers should not be the targets for whatever gripes or unhappiness the shooter is dealing with.

        • weka 34.2.1.1

          “WINZ front line workers should not be the targets for whatever gripes or unhappiness the shooter is dealing with.”

          Sorry Karol, but while I think the impact on the victims and their families is horrific and beyond imagining, I am unwilling for the probable extreme suffering of the shooter to be reduced to gripes or unhappiness. We have no way of knowing yet why he chose to do what he did, whether he was callous or out of his wits with desperation. But amongst many other reactions I am having today, I am wondering how many lives are the cost of the suffering of a whole class of people.

          • karol 34.2.1.1.1

            I don’t think I have posited any reasons or motives. Front line WINZ people are not the powerful shapers of society, or the root causes of suffering of a whole class of people.

            I also was thinking we live in a culture that often glorifies physical violence as a solution to problems and a means to exert power, while also treating it as entertainment.

            • weka 34.2.1.1.1.1

              I doubt that anyone who takes a shotgun into WINZ and uses it, is ‘dealing with gripes and unhappiness’. I’m asking you to not minimise the suffering there.

              Some front line WINZ staff are hugely part of the problem. It’s possibly too hard to discuss this today without that being taken as victim blaming, and I don’t mean it as a comment on the Ashburton killings (I have no idea what that’s about), but it seems important to name the complexities of the tragedy.

              I agree with your comment about the glorification of violence and its relationship to entertainment. I’m thinking about mass shootings and their coverage too, and how we do it in NZ.

              • karol

                Well, I was actually trying to steer away from easy explanations re- the individuals involved. My main first point to start with is that we are all implicated, by way of the kind of society we’ve become.

      • Tracey 34.2.3

        Yes, confirmed two dead, both WINZ workers

      • Rosie 34.2.4

        Well said blue leopard. What a shocking thing to hear on the news today. Unbelievably sad.

        Much love to the families of the workers killed, their friends and all staff of WINZ who have lost their work mates in such a frightening and traumatic way.

  34. disturbed 35

    What a gem you are Mike,

    Bilderberg group secret society planned by NAZI’s in 1943.

    John Key as NZ Prime Minister of NZ attended this secretive NAZI founded powerful industrial lobbyist group and kept it from NZ Citizens.

    Key obviously learned all about Black ops while secretly attending that 2011-12 controversial Bilderberg secret Global elite group, who want to control the entire globe.

    They are known to operate a secret shadowy black ops to damage any opposition to their agenda’s.

    Here’s what they say about this group John Key was reported to have meet with and attended a very secretive annual Bilderberg conference.

    Why didn’t PM tell NZ he was into Bilderberg?

    List of Bilderberg participants 4

    New Zealand

    • John Key (2011-2012), Prime Minister of New Zealand

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bilderberg

    No Bilderberg meeting agenda has ever been made public. “It is the epitome of low-profile dark ops, a shadow government hidden in a doorway.” According to critics and close observers, it’s agenda is to weaken all world leadership but their own. It is also, according to a U.S. law called the Logan Act, [15] illegal:

    [lprent: sigh. Move it to OpenMike. I suspect this is another one of the strange conspiracy theories full of assertions rather than anything checkable.

    Don’t plop this kind of assertion junk on posts outside of OpenMike or I’m liable to reduce my workload the easy (for me) way. ]

    • yeshe 35.1

      lodge an OIA and ask where Key was on those dates. shd be black fun !

      and if indeed he was travelling, another OIA to find out how it was paid for.

      and from wnhat I have learned over the past few days, word to OIA very specifically .. someone here with experience might be willing to help. Good luck.

      Quote from that Wiki link from Prince Bernhard of Holland outlining their aims:

      “Here comes our greatest difficulty. For the governments of the free nations are elected by the people, and if they do something the people don’t like they are thrown out. It is difficult to reeducate the people who have been brought up on nationalism to the idea of relinquishing part of their sovereignty to a supernational body…”

    • Jenk 35.2

      to Disturbed – where is the link that shows John Key attended the Bilderberg 2011-12
      Global conference, please ?
      I can’t find it under the general Wikipedia description.

      • disturbed 35.2.1

        Hi Jenk it comes under the following;

        If you have trouble I can send the printout of all participant’s also. Got an email?

        Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported

        //creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

        Article Sources and Contributors 17

        Article Sources and Contributors

        List of Bilderberg participants Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=490249815 Contributors: 336, 9258fahsflkh917fas, Abatrour, Adam angel82, AfricanFacts,

        AgnosticPreachersKid, Alansohn, Albnd, Andrew Gray, Andyjsmith, Angrysockhop, Ash, Avicennasis, Axiome2, Bearcat, Beardo, Bensin, Binksternet, Biruitorul, Boberger, Bobrayner, Bofs,

        Bretddog, BrightBlackHeaven, Britcom, Brownturkey, Bunnyhop11, Butcer, C mon, Canaryarmy, Cavrdg, Cbnowhere, Cenarium, Cff12345, Cgingold, Chendy, ClamDip, Closedmouth,

        CloudNine, Colonies Chris, Crosbiesmith, D6, Damian Thorne, Danrayson, Decameron74, Deconstructhis, Discospinster, Doom-chronicle, Dougweller, Download, Dreadstar, Dryke, Duran,

        DéRahier, Egrian, Elandy2009, Elassint, Emilfarb, Epbr123, Ergative rlt, Falcon8765, Farmanesh, FinalRapture, Fluri, Foglietta7200, Foofees, ForeverRedAce, Fæ, Gareth E Kegg, GeneralBelly,

        Glane23, Globe20, Gonzooon, Graham87, Greenwallpaper, GregorB, Griffin147, Ground Zero, Gruznov, Handicapper, Heathencourt, Helpertoday42, Hierarchypedia, Hipocrite, Hodeken,

        Hoodster, Indefatigable, IoannesM, Is Mise, Itemirus, J.delanoy, J00tel, Jayzel68, Jeffums124, Jetinhouston, Jim Yar, Jreferee, Julle, Kaaveh Ahangar, Kewee1, Klimov, Koavf, Kristoffer Åsheim

        Johansen, KudzuVine, Kwi, Lars Washington, Liamrhodes, Lihaas, Lord Chao, Lord Voldemort, Lordmetroid, Lozeldafan, Luckyboy1965, Lymona, M. Frederick, MBarryKanter, MCB, ML,

        Mac5811, Mainenwo, Marshall, Materialscientist, Matilda, Matt Deres, Mbair, Meta.thomas, Michellecrisp, Michig, Mike R, Mike-Kerkhoven, MikeVitale, MissBaByG, Mlaffs, Moez, Moppf,

        Morton devonshire, Mrh30, NJA, Neutrality, Nick Dillinger, Niclas1984, Nunamiut, OllieFury, P.o.l.o., Patchen, PatrikR, Peace Makes Plenty, PedeP, Pedrovaz, Pegship, Pete.Hurd, Peter 2009,

        PigFlu Oink, Plorp, Politis, Popo24975, Pseudoanonymous, QuantumOne, QueenofBattle, Rastko Pocesta, Rdeiriar, Rebecca jones, Rebroad, Redvers, Registrarmike, Rjwilmsi, Robert Dain,

        RobertHessemore, Ronewirl, Rrius, SGT141, SWA, Sah293, Salladay916, Sandstig, Sapienz, Scjessey, Seaphoto, Searcher 1990, Sgnulseenk, Shadowjams, Sivazh, Slightsmile, Sloane, Spitzl,

        Srushe, Stanjourdan, Step13thirteen, Stepshep, Steve Smedley, Stijn Calle, StillTrill, StoneProphet, Tazmaniacs, TeaDrinker, The Great Eradicator, The last prophet, TheFourFreedoms,

        Thorwald, Toddst1, Tom harrison, Tommy2010, Toubalcain, Trackratte, Tractatus1, Tremello, Truth for all of us, Trödel, Universalcosmos, Urarary, Valdemarasl, Van helsing, Verifire,

        VeritasInTheUK, VeronicaPR, Vesteinn, Vice regent, Vinn0r, Vjiced, Voxii, WCCasey, Wages, Wallstreetjournaloutlook, Wally, Wayne Slam, Weissmann, Welshspencer, Will Beback, Wjs2,

        Woodshed, XLR8TION, YUL89YYZ, Youngamerican, Zereshk, Σ, 916 anonymous edits

        License

        Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported

        //creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

      • disturbed 35.2.2

        Try this link Jenk it works for me

        John Key PM NZ attended 2011. Infamous Bilderberg Black ops meeting of most powerful global secret group power base.

        Why did John Key keep this from NZ citizens as Bilderberg wants to rule world.

        http://twochurchesonly.com/supmat/03/
        most_influential/bilderberg_group/
        list_of_bilderberg_attendees.pdf

    • Tracey 35.3

      If it is a secret how do you know Key was there.

  35. greywarbler 36

    WINZ offices closed in Christchurch and Timaru because there has been a gun murder in the office in Ashburton. Why not put security on these offices rather than close them and cause more grief to needy people in these other places? NZ is in dire straits, and the authorities are expected to do their job to help, not lock down large areas because they are upset. Large numbers of needy people are upset the majority of their day.

    Since the Labour Party decided to close down helping institutions and treat people in the community (possibly in a shoebox in the middle of the road) it has increased the number of people at risk in the community and not able to access help for their poor stressed disoriented brains. All because of an ideology that has produced a fairy tale of a better way, (and more cheaply everyone hoped). But the real tale was that community treatment was better only if a lot of extra money was spent on providing facilities and support and stimulating activities.

    But doing things thoroughly and effectively is not the present NZ government way. So many criminals in jail or out are mentally disturbed and their unbalanced behaviours increase the breakdown in a once civilised society. And figures show large numbers in prison are mentally out of it, and unable to get help. A mean, broken society Roger Douglas, Richard Prebble and Caygill, Ruth Richardson, Jenny Shipley and other self-centred fat cats have left us with.

    I noticed when talking to Kathryn Ryan about the work of the SFO which seems to have been rorted by supposedly responsible officials, and referring to Mark Hotchins, who is a a fine example of a s-c fat cat, a previous SFO CEO said nothing reported about Hotchins would surprise him.

    • Puckish Rogue 36.1

      I would imagine the offices are closed because the workers are probably traumatised and the police are probably investigating what happened.

      • karol 36.1.1

        The shooter is still at large, so WINZ offices in the area would be considered a possible target.

        • Puckish Rogue 36.1.1.1

          Well being that shots have been heard at the Ashburton river (thanks radio) I’d guessing they’ll find him pretty soon but yeah thats another good reason to not open the offices

        • greywarbler 36.1.1.2

          Ashburton is not Timaru and a way from Christchurch. Services would need to be operating under strict security control but not closed.

          • karol 36.1.1.2.1

            Ah, yes. I know the locations. I hitchhiked a few times between Christchurch and Timaru in my youth.

            Its feasible to get between those places pretty quickly by car – not so fast on a bike. People would have been jittery.

    • McFlock 36.2

      winz offices already have security.
      Not much they can do against a gun, though.

    • Inky 36.3

      They wouldn’t want to take chances that the gunman didn’t have a mate who might take another crack at the place or at another branch. Lives have to be put before anyone’s inconvenience.

  36. Tracey 37

    the colin crazi party has a leaflet out…

    It has a heading

    “Key Facts

    1. The amount of productive land in foreign hands is probably around 10% and growing”

    I have two questions,

    Can probably and around constitute a fact?

    • McFlock 37.1

      yeah – I wondered why the news had an item about him getting millions from managing foreign-owned properties, then I got the mailer. lol

      what a tool.

  37. Rosemary 38

    Mr Slater’s email to “Mark,[name redacted] Carrick” appears to have been addressed to 3 people. Do we know who the person whose name has been blacked out is? Do we know why the name was hidden and who hid it?

    I had assumed the name was that of the leaker but we now have conflicting information about who leaked it. Ms Odgers admits she handed it over, though not why. Striking out her name would serve no purpose – neither protection from the odium of association because she’s referred to freely in the letter, nor protection from her fellow miscreants, because they would know who the 3rd recipient was.

    But today Kathryn Ryan insisted that the name and purpose of the leaker is unknown. So we may dismiss Odgers’ claim as diversionary and ask again who struck out one of the recipients’ names and why. And, whose name is it?

    • McFlock 38.1

      While those questions are logical, I suspect that they don’t incorporate that odgers is, in many areas, most likely to be functionally an idiot.

      To tell the truth, the initial line of ‘she heard about more emails, assumed that one was included, and tried to preemptively come clean’ put me in mind of the wikileaks episode where the news orgs told the US govt about the docs, and the govt started a list of the docs that they thought should be withheld on security/safety/public interest grounds, but stopped halfway through when they realised that they were just telling the papers which cables were the juiciest lol

  38. Inky 39

    Latest whaledump is all about Mark Hotchin, with Cam the man and Prickly Cactus Kate scheming.

  39. This Ashburton shooting is beyond tragic. Women gunned down at their place of work in small town New Zealand; the shooter – very likely someone with mental health issues – may have been shot by the AOS and we all – ALL OF US – have lost another shred of our tattered claim to be a decent and fair society.

    No sanctimonious lectures from rightwing hypocrites please – but my first thought after the horror had subsided – was how the law and order brigade will milk the situation.

    • Puckish Rogue 40.1

      “No sanctimonious lectures from rightwing hypocrites please – but my first thought after the horror had subsided – was how the law and order brigade will milk the situation.”

      – I understand, mine was how long it’ll be before someone blames John Key

      • adam 40.1.1

        PR I said before you were a dogmatic shit, now I think you a disrespectful disingenuous individual as well. But please feel free, to keep trying to make political mileage over this tragedy, you low life.

        • Puckish Rogue 40.1.1.1

          Did you read what I said, I said I understand which means i’m in agreement with TeWhareWhero when he said “but my first thought after”

          Seriously guys (or girls) get a grip

      • tricledrown 40.1.2

        PR very sad indictment of your self when all you are worried about is not connected to this in way desperate disingenuously distracting and completely dispicable!
        apologize now!

      • weka 40.1.3

        “- I understand, mine was how long it’ll be before someone blames John Key”

        I think you probably mean “how long it’ll be before someone blames Paula Bennett?”, but yeah, given he is her boss I can see why you went there first.

          • weka 40.1.3.1.1

            Yeah, because this is about who wins 🙄

            • Puckish Rogue 40.1.3.1.1.1

              I agree, you’d have thought she could have left the politics out for at least a day but nope guess not

              • Te Reo Putake

                Well, you didn’t leave politics out of it either, you dimwitted tool. You posted a political comment at 1.17. The difference between you and Bradford is that nobody takes you seriously.

                • Tracey

                  And she is consistent

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Is there some sort of lefty blindness going on? You do see my posting was in agreement with the other poster…

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    Bullshit. You could have just written ‘+ 1’ or similar, but you had to politicise it. What a tosser.

                  • Tracey

                    Your first thought was

                    ” how long it’ll be before someone blames John Key”

                    Nope not politicising it with your right blindness…

                    And so far no one has blamed john key, so your first original thought in some time was… Wrong

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I was agreeing with this:

                      “No sanctimonious lectures from rightwing hypocrites please – but my first thought after the horror had subsided – was how the law and order brigade will milk the situation.”

                      but my first thought after the horror had subsided

                      after the horror had subsided

                      Since most of you seem to be suffering from advance leftism, typical symptoms being unable to see what is written and making up own narrative I thought it might be salient just to reiterate exactly what I was replying to just so I’m not taken out of context

                      Did you all get that? I’ll repeat it once more for those that are a bit slow (GIMP supporters)

                      “No sanctimonious lectures from rightwing hypocrites please – but my first thought after the horror had subsided – was how the law and order brigade will milk the situation.”

                      I was agreeing with the poster but coming from a right-wing perspective

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      You’re an idiot with significant comprehension problems, PR. It’s a lucky thing for you that TS doesn’t ban for stupidity, but then the left are always empathetic with those with less of society’s usual minimum cognitive skills.

              • Tracey

                Are you getting dizzy yet?

          • Draco T Bastard 40.1.3.1.2

            She happens to be right though and, IMO, that’s the bit that scares the RWNJs demanding that we not politicise this the most.

  40. Tigger 41

    Deborah Hill-Cone asks everyone to stop being mean to her friend Cathy Odgers. No, literally, she says that.

    “Oi, you lot. Can you all please stop being so mean to my friend Cathy Odgers! She is not some Machiavellian Cruella de Vil.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/deborah-hill-cone/news/article.cfm?a_id=368&objectid=11317080

    Oddly, the column is about DHC’s depression, not politics.

    But sorry, Debbie, there are a bucketload of emails showing Cathy acting just like a Machiavellian Cruella de Vil. If the 101 Dalmatian-coat fits…

    DimPost makes a great point today mentioning the DHC-Slater connection (she gifted him that Canon Media Award). So how many lines has she been running for Slater/Key also?

    Edit – in the comments someone mentions this: “Surely on the basis of your friendship with Cactus Kate, you had an obligation to the organizers of the Canon Media awards to decline from partaking as a judge in the Blogging award category based on this revealed conflict of interest.” Hmmmm, did she declare that as a conflict? How close friends are they? Because if they really are such good friends she’s defending Odgers at this point (when no one else would touch her) then she’s far too close a friend to be able to judge impartially (i.e. she should have bowed out as judge). Time to email Canon…

    • Tracey 41.1

      I thought it was Machiavellian Cruella de Ville

      But its an apt label.

      • Tigger 41.1.1

        It is apt, Tracey. But it’s ‘de Vil’.

        I’ve just re-read the start of DHC’s column and I’m utterly perplexed. How can you defend someone, even a friend, who has conspired to target innocent public servants? And who is bullying ‘poor’ Odgers? DHC doesn’t mention anything – just waves a hand in the general direction of the left.

        • Tracey 41.1.1.1

          Thanks Tigger

          By all means stick by your mates BUT dont submit it as a piece of journalism and do a poor me on behalf of that mate. That is not good journalistic integrity imo.

    • Tracey 41.2

      And Odgers is ok cos she gave DCH children a giant paddington bear!!!?!

      No one is all bad for sure and maybe Odgers is bored BUT she is involved in some stuff seriously undermining our democracy and justice system.

      Need more than a big fucking soft toy to get around that.

      • Tigger 41.2.1

        Completely agree. I cannot understand Hill Cone’s thinking in writing this or the paper for publishing it. As you say, Odgers is involved in undermining democracy but Hill Cone thinks it’s a bit of a laff? Just how closely connected is Hill Cone with this band of thugs? So closely that she’s lost all perspective it would seem.

        • Flipnz 41.2.1.1

          Hill Cone and Slater seem to share the same illness…

        • Molly 41.2.1.2

          Deborah Hill Cone is the sole judge who awarded Cameron Slater the Canon Best Blogger of the Year award.

          Her first column after the release of Dirty Politics was a masterpiece of deflection. No mention of any involvement, a very personal piece on her fragility and her decision to continue with her column.

          I have not yet read any of her columns that make sense or provide any insight.

          • Rodel 41.2.1.2.1

            Molly- well and rather kindly said.
            Columnists who write about topical issues are often worth reading.
            Columnists who write about themselves are never worth reading.

    • yeshe 42.1

      shame they are calling for it to be run before the election .. that’s just impossible and a little careless in the wording imho. fine idea tho in principle.

      • blue leopard 42.1.1

        Yes that is a good point. I view that as simply emphasizing the urgency, yet yes, that is good point. Hope you sign just the same!

  41. The email that was released by the PM was from 5 October 2011.

    Emails from the most recent Whaledump were from August 2011, December, 2011 and April, 2012.

    I don’t know anything about databases and how they are stored but it seems odd to have before and after but not that particular one.

    Also, Feeley was originally ‘caught out’ by the Weekend Herald which had “obtained a staff email“.

    On 21 December 2012 (in latest Whaledump) Slater says “SFO leakers are leaking again. I have got emails this morning.

    We’ll never know how the Weekend Herald ‘obtained’ the staff email I guess.

    • weka 43.1

      “I don’t know anything about databases and how they are stored but it seems odd to have before and after but not that particular one.”

      I thought that odd too, but I’m not sure we have the full story on who did the hacking and who got the data. Lanth points out that Hager took some but not all of the docs. Rawshark took others to give to various MSM. There may have been more than one hacker involved. Or as you say, maybe it’s something to do with data storage.

  42. weka 45

    Anyone know what the deal with with advance voting? I just tried to find something about it online and elections.org.nz says there will be something in the mail the week before the election, but I thought advanced voting was open already.

  43. Kiwiri 46

    JK is singing slightly different lyrics. From ‘at the end of the day’ to ‘in the end’. Perhaps inspired by:

    “in the end, it doesn’t even matter
    I had to fall, to lose it all,
    But in the end, it doesn’t even matter”

  44. greywarbler 47

    I was just hearing about the Game of Thrones book A Feast of Crows. The usual mixup of plots and schemes and dirty dealings and loyalty. Sounds like our present political scene.

  45. Weepus beard 48

    The Ashburton shooting appears to be the result of an acute failure of social services in the regions, likely due to cutbacks in mental health support services and extra pressure on WINZ to minimise payments.

    Mr Tully reportedly asked for help on numerous occasions to multiple departments but the state of social help in regions like Ashburton is so woeful that he seems to have been ignored.

    The public did not want a bar of Mr Tully and now two innocent people are dead.

    Right wing people, including the current government, refuse to accept that not every person is capable of living up to their mantra of self reliance.

    You can judge a society by the way it treats its vulnerable people.

    • greywarbler 48.1

      The National mantra of isolation and disdain for anyone that doesn’t fit their narrow self-serving template.

      • Weepus beard 48.1.1

        Rangitata’s Jo Goodhew is the associate minister of health, FFS. She knew this case well but it’s not in her, or anyone in her government’s, ideology to do anything about it.

        • weka 48.1.1.1

          What makes you think this is partly about mental health services?

          • Weepus beard 48.1.1.1.1

            The man was seen to be a nuisance in the town. Slept rough, engaged services, made statements like pitching a tent in the middle of the Domain.

            Surely in a functioning society, police and or other officials would alert mental health services and they would respond.

            Not Ashburton society apparently.

            • weka 48.1.1.1.1.1

              Nothing about the behaviours you describe says mental health consumer to me. He might be or he might not be, but too many people are making judgements today without any evidence.

              I mean, if we were really going to look at mental health, how about the numerous people who reported him livign in his tent, and then him being moved on by the police (whatever the fuck that’s a euphamism for).

              • Colonial Viper

                He should have been assessed for mental health issues, and I hope he was.

                • weka

                  Or maybe he was and going into mental health services fucked him up. Been known to happen.

                  Are we assuming because he was on a beneft and homeless that he would have mental health issues requiring assessment? Why?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Not sure what politically correct point you are trying to make weka, but this man is definitely going to get his mental health assessment now, courtesy of our criminal justice system.

                    • weka

                      Well duh, he’s just committed an extremely violent crime, of course he will be psychologically assessed.

                      And fuck off with the PC slur. You still haven’t said why you think this man should have been assessed by a mental health team in the past. And you seem unaware of the reality that ending up in mental health services can make things worse for some people, esp if their basic needs aren’t being met and they get unnecessarily labelled instead.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Well duh, he’s just committed an extremely violent crime, of course he will be psychologically assessed.

                      So, you think he clearly warrants receiving a mental health assessment now. But not one month ago. Explain.

                    • weka

                      I’ll answer your questions when you answer the one I’ve already asked twice: what makes you think that Tully was in need of a mental health assessment in the past?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I’m talking recent past weka – as in the last few months – as he was getting into more and more trouble with authorities.

                    • weka

                      Maybe you have read something I haven’t. Can you please link to something that indicates he needed a mental health assessment by the state. Getting into trouble with the authorities (not sure what that means, do you mean pitching his tent in the park?), isn’t inherently a sign of mental health problems. He might just have really needed a place to live.

                      Or have I really missed something here?

                    • miravox

                      “he was getting into more and more trouble with authorities.”

                      I find it hard to reconcile this view cv, that someone who is getting into trouble with the authorities has a mental illness, with many of your previous posts that lead me to believe that you understand that people who are at the bottom of society should stand up to authority to fight for what they legitimately need. etc, etc.

                      In fact hard to reconcile is an understatement. I’m actually shocked that this association of anti-authoritarianism and mental health issues comes from you.

                      No-one could be more at the bottom of society than this guy. If in fact he did have a mental health problems (diagnosed long-term illness, or temporarily unable to cope) the removal of stressors may have eased the symptoms of it whereas mental health assessment and still being homeless and at war with social service may not have.

                      Re your long comment below:

                      “At the same time, I have no doubt that cheaply available social housing and other supports would have taken most of the pressure off Tully months ago.”

                      And that’s the context isn’t it? Society and government institutions not working for people. An immense tragedy that may not have happened if health, housing and income suport systems and other authorities functioned for the people they should serve.

              • miravox

                Seems to me he needed housing services ahead of mental health services.

              • Weepus beard

                Hi Weka. I’m just upset that someone like this wasn’t listened to by someone in Ashburton other than the reporter from The Guardian who appeared to have some compassion for the man’s plight. It’s lead to the death of two mothers? Daughters? Sisters?

                There was a lot of hand wringing from officials interviewed for the same article that day in August including the associate minister of health, but still he was allowed to sleep by the side of the Ashburton River in the middle of winter.

                From the local mental health services or whatever other services available there, it’s not been good enough.

                • weka

                  I can understand the upset Wb. I still don’t see the connection with mental health services. I’ve just read read this Herald article (haven’t watched the video), and there is nothing in there to indicate he needed mental health team support. Not saying he didn’t, but am unclear why people are assuming he did.

                  http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11317351

                  My concern here is that people are making a connection between mental health and violence, or mental health and being homeless that doesn’t exist. We all have mental health, and people are affected differently by circumstances. I still reckon the guy needed a home.

                  Perhaps it’s easier for some people to believe that such an aweful crime can be committed by someone who is mentally unwell, instead of someone who is desperate in their life circumstances. (I have no idea if he was either).

                  • Colonial Viper

                    My concern here is that people are making a connection between mental health and violence, or mental health and being homeless that doesn’t exist.

                    Your concern is admirable, in terms of asserting the general case. But IMO it’s also misdirected. I spent some time tonight researching further. And as I intuited, there are very strong associations between mental health and homelessness in the literature that perhaps you appear unaware of. At the same time, I have no doubt that cheaply available social housing and other supports would have taken most of the pressure off Tully months ago.

                    It is estimated that 20-25% of homeless people, compared with 6% of the non-homeless, have severe mental illness.[2] Others estimate that up to one-third of the homeless suffer from mental illness.

                    source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_and_mental_health

                    Conclusion: Schizophrenia is much more prevalent among homeless persons than in the population at large. Future research should focus on better ways of meeting the mental health care needs of homeless people with schizophrenia.

                    source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0447.2002.02209.x/abstract;jsessionid=DA48B41B8F9285910532248DC2576E50.f04t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

                    There is a strong body of evidence that points to markedly higher rates of mental health problems in populations of homeless adults than among the securely domiciled. Most studies support the finding that unusually high rates of psychosis and substance misuse are a common feature of homeless populations.

                    source: http://qni.org.uk/docs/mental_gealth_guidance_print.pdf

                    Mental illness was the third largest cause of homelessness for single adults (mentioned by 48% of cities). For homeless families, mental illness was mentioned by 12% of cities as one of the top 3 causes of homelessness.

                    source: http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/Mental_Illness.html

                    More than 124,000 – or one-fifth – of the 610,000 homeless people across the USA suffer from a severe mental illness, according to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. They’re gripped by schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or severe depression — all manageable with the right medication and counseling but debilitating if left untreated

                    source: http://www.usatoday.com/longform/news/nation/2014/08/27/mental-health-homeless-series/14255283/

                    In late 2013, Canterbury District Health Board records indicated that 146 mental health service users were either homeless, living in unsafe housing or waiting in services they no longer needed. The Christchurch City Mission estimated about one person a day visited seeking accommodation, with about a quarter suffering some mental illness.

                    source: http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/parl-support/research-papers/00PLEcoRP14021/homelessness-in-new-zealand

                    • weka

                      sorry mate, but I’m perfectly aware of the connections between homelessness and mental health, and I didn’t need to look them up before commenting. What I’m objecting to is you suggesting that every homeless person has a psych evaluation, simply because they’re homeless, because that is prejudicial.

                      I suggest you go do some research on prejudice against people with mental health issues, prejudice against people who don’t act normally and who get labelled mentally ill, prejudice against people who are homeless, and check out the anti-psychiatry movement.

                      It’s really important to not pathologise people around mental health, and it’s important to not connect up mental health and violence automatically.

                      You also still seem to think that giving someone an assessment is going to be the appropriate thing, whereas it might not, it might just make things worse. For instance, say he gets assessed and starts cycling in and out of daycare or even a psych ward. Maybe they get the diagnosis wrong (maybe he’s not mentall unwell or maybe he is and they still get it wrong), and then it takes time to get his meds right (or he doesn’t actually need any and the meds make his mental health deteriorate). Now he has another whole complex layer of stress on him, and still nowhere to live and less capacity to deal with it.

                      (that is all hypothetical btw, I don’t know what Tully’s situation was).

                    • Colonial Viper

                      What I’m objecting to is you suggesting that every homeless person has a psych evaluation, simply because they’re homeless, because that is prejudicial.

                      WTF? Where the hell did I suggest this??? You’re the one who tried to say that there was no connection:

                      My concern here is that people are making a connection between…mental health and being homeless that doesn’t exist.

                      Then you tried to back track by saying??? –

                      but I’m perfectly aware of the connections between homelessness and mental health

                      What? These are two completely contradictory statements. It is associated or there’s no association. Which one do you want to go with, please.

                    • weka

                      I have asked you repeatedly why you think Tully should have had a mental health assessment in the past. You haven’t answered that question directly, so you can’t blame me for then trying to guess what you mean.

                      “but I’m perfectly aware of the connections between homelessness and mental health” = statistically, correlations. But can’t be applied to any one individual automatically, or all homeless people, hence,

                      “My concern here is that people are making a connection between…mental health and being homeless that doesn’t exist.”

                      I’ll ask again, what evidence or theory do you have that Tully should have had a mental health assessment in the past, apart from him being a homeless person? (which I think we are in agreement now isn’t a criteria for a psych evaluation).

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Don’t use directly contradictory statements and positions is all I ask.

                      (which I think we are in agreement now isn’t a criteria for a psych evaluation).

                      Sorry I disagree. The presence of significant risk factors is naturally an indicator for initiating a health assessment; even if an individual risk factor is not sufficient to take action on, it must still be considered and weighed up. Why do you not agree.

                      Prolonged homelessness is a major risk factor. The literature says so and you agree. Add to that disruptive behaviour in the WINZ office leading him to be trespassed, and at least one reported contact with police.

                      Also, we know what he did to innocent people in the WINZ office, and can guess that he harboured highly violent thoughts for some time leading up to the day. A formal mental health assessment could have picked that up.

                      Now let me ask you a question. If you don’t think the above was enough to justify a mental health assessment, what in your view would.

                    • weka

                      “Don’t use directly contradictory statements and positions is all I ask.”

                      My statements aren’t contradictory. I’ve explained them, do you understand what I meant now?

                      “(which I think we are in agreement now isn’t a criteria for a psych evaluation).

                      Sorry I disagree.”

                      So you think being homeless, on its own, is enough to warrant a psych evaluation?

                      I don’t. I think that being homeless and at statistical risk of mental illness means that the people with mental health problems who are homeless should get the support they need and that the people who are homeless without mental health problems should not be assessed unless they want to be. Saying that those who don’t need it should be assessed is disempowering, and creates all sorts of problem (some of which I have already mentioned).

                      Now you bring in other factors, which gives me a better idea of what you are thinking.

                      “The presence of significant risk factors is naturally an indicator for initiating a health assessment; even if an individual risk factor is not sufficient to take action on, it must still be considered and weighed up. Why do you not agree.”

                      Because in every case it’s going to be individual. And we, sitting on the internet, don’t have enough information to make that judgement call about Tully. Or anyone really.

                      One of the things I am probably objecting to is your apparent disempowerment model. Your original statement,

                      “He should have been assessed for mental health issues, and I hope he was.”

                      This implies that someone else should have made sure he had an assessment, irrespective of whether he needed one or not, or wanted one or not. You are suggesting that a man who is probably already experiencing multiple disempowerments from multiple agencies, be subjected to another one in an area that will make him highly vulnerable. That’s not a good idea. It’s also not ok to be pushing people to have psych evaluations when what they need is to be provided with a home.

                      Here’s what I’ve heard in the last day:

                      – he pitched a tent in a public place
                      – he was homeless (how long for?)
                      – his behaviour was disruptive enough at WINZ to get him barred (what level of behaviour is required for that? How is it related to mental health?)
                      – he has had one instance of contact with the police (what for? how was that related to mental health?)

                      None of those singly or together suggest reason that he should have been subjected to a mental health assessment. I’m not saying he didn’t need help with his mental health, I’m saying we have no idea whether he need help or not.

                      I am curious however where you think an assessment might have been offered. Referral from WINZ? The police? The mayor? HNZ?

                      “Also, we know what he did to innocent people in the WINZ office, and can guess that he harboured highly violent thoughts for some time leading up to the day.”

                      We only know that with hindsight, so it’s not relevant to a conversation about past assessments. I do agree that closer to the day people may have seen things of concern, but say 6 weeks ago when he visited the Mayor? There may not have been any need for an assessment.

                      “Now let me ask you a question. If you don’t think the above was enough to justify a mental health assessment, what in your view would.”

                      eg
                      – If he had been talking about his mental health and/or asking for help with his mental health, and those things sounded extreme enough to warrant the state getting involved.
                      – if he had been saying things like “I can’t cope”
                      – If he had displayed symptoms of poor mental health eg had been distressed frequently and unable to manage that distress (although again, he might have been better being offered support rather than an assessment)
                      – if he had a history of mental health problems
                      – if when he was barred from WINZ or had his contact with the police he presented as either not understanding what was happening, or his thinking was out of order (and I don’t mean him being angry or upset).

                      I can think of other things too, but they mostly don’t inherently mean a mental health assessment is needed. I think there would be other indicators too (and I’m mindful of the fact that many people will hide mental health issues and men in particular are less likely to ask for help), but it’s not really my field. All I’m saying is that the little bit in the news that we know about isn’t sufficient to say he should have been assessed and that it’s unhelpful to speculate about his mental health when we really have no idea.

            • Bill 48.1.1.1.1.2

              My tuppence worth is to wonder at the mental state of people who phone complaints about a homeless guy pitching a tent instead of taking him a cuppa, having a chat, asking if there’s anything they can do, asking if there’s anything he needs… Y’know?

              • Weepus beard

                True. We are a society in fear. The dismantling of communities is a very real social problem.

                • greywarbler

                  @ Weepus beard
                  We are a society that doesn’t care (to examine oneself and our society in general, and to extend a hand to those knocked down by our society’s systems eg alcohol pushing, education pushing with no jobs to follow, and just inability to cope with the hypocrisy gap between stated societal beliefs and the reality.)

                  The dismantling of communities is a very real social problem.

              • weka

                The Mayor when interviewed on RNZ this evening felt it necessary to state multiple times that Tully had the option of somewhere to live in TImaru, but chose to stay in Ashburton. No mention of context or reasons or whether Tully had an actual choice or just one the Mayor perceived.

                • Weepus beard

                  Weka, I can’t work out what you know and don’t know and am unsure about what you are trying to say. You’ve not made yourself clear at all.

                  He was brought up in Ashburton. His father had died in Ashburton, and he, in his own words, had come home to die and be buried next to his father. He didn’t want to be in Timaru or Christchurch.

                  He appears to have been a son of Ashburton.

                  They didn’t want him.

                  • weka

                    Thanks, I didn’t know that about his father, knew the rest. My comment above was a dig at the Mayor’s mental health (which is really a dig at his consciousness or lack of).

                    • crocodill

                      What?! You made the assumption that the Major’s behaviour was an aspect of his mental health?! And then you stigmatised those with health issues by using “mental health” in a negative frame? Oh heavens, call out the guard!

                      lol this whole discussion has now dissolved into “PC madness” lol.

                    • weka

                      No, I’m taking a poke at the people here who think that being homeless is criteria for mental health assessment, but being in a position of power and not helping a homeless person isn’t.

      • paul scott 48.1.2

        should NZ Nat send you money to whistle warbler? or do you think its ok if we get on with NZ .

        • greywarbler 48.1.2.1

          @ paul s
          I see you are a superior RWNJ. From your imagined higher intellect looking at the lower orders and passing sarcastic remarks. Can you just keep staying at the side, not getting in our way as we try to regain a decent country and assist the damaged from the neo liberal global free market earthquakes.

          We won’t get help from you, just don’t try to prevent our efforts as we get on with project NZ Beneficent, all getting prosperous and, reasonably happy, together.

  46. yeshe 49

    4.25 today — Herald has some new emails from Rawshark .. Collins claims they must be forged .. but goodness, prison is looking possible.

    Might be elsewhere on TS .. sorry if it is; have just come home and haven’t checked everywhere.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11317385

  47. Weepus beard 50

    Not big on linking to other sites but Chris Trotter has gathered all his emotion and sharply blunt prose today and not let it go to waste.

    In Ashburton you can still catch a glimpse of New Zealand as it used to be. That place of bright and brittle friendships where, behind the post-war Kiwis’ welcoming smiles, lust and greed and violence seethed like a sack full of eels.

    – Chris Trotter

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/09/01/ashburton-1-september-2014/

    • paul scott 50.1

      Can you have sharply blunt prose weeping one?
      Trotter is a Christian school teacher, not sharp, blunt.

      • Weepus beard 50.1.1

        That was an attempt a juxtaposition. A clumsy one at that, sorry.

        I like language that creates images and draws scenes as if in a play and Trotter does this freely. He described Bill English’s last budget by invoking a picture of those left out in the cold looking in at the National Party elite comfortable in their warmly lit homes.

        That was my own amateur attempt at doing something similar.

  48. feijoa 51

    I am sure I read somewhere that Mark Hotchins mansion was apparently bought at a huge discount by one of the Oravida directors – when it was sold off when his assets were frozen, but now I can’t find it.

  49. Chrissy 52

    There’s a real gem if you missed it, on Radio Live yesterday: Hooton and Boag going at each other hammer and tongs: it’s beautiful.

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Audio.aspx

    go to Sunday at 10: 15, and you are right in it.

  50. f.y.i..

    ..60 mins @ 8.30 is doing a piece on the medical qualities of cannabis…

  51. blue leopard 54

    Did anyone else see the item on Georgina Beyer on TV3 News tonight? She was apparently speaking out against Dotcom

    http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/dotcom-only-interested-in-retribution—beyer-2014090118

    [there is text and a video on that link]

    This seems a strange thing to do at this point in the election.

    Our political scene all seems to have gone a little barmy, if you asked me.

    Anyone hear anything more on this?

    • weka 54.1

      Interesting (reading the text). Bet it’s taken out of context.

      “Our political scene all seems to have gone a little barmy, if you asked me.”

      Sure has.

      • blue leopard 54.1.1

        Yeah, that is what I wondered too (taken out of context).

        I can’t find anything else on it. Guess I’ll have to wait and see if any more information comes to light over that one.

        • weka 54.1.1.1

          just watched the video. She’s pretty unequivocal. I wonder where she was when that was filmed.

          If it just happened this afternoon, Mana won’t have had time to respond.

          • blue leopard 54.1.1.1.1

            I agree – she does seem pretty unequivocal. I was hoping there must be some mistake.

            Hope Mana do respond to this promptly. I can’t believe that one of their reps would say something so divisive this close to the election.

  52. annette sykes on maori tv..

    ..confirming all the reasons why i am a member of the mana party…

    • blue leopard 55.1

      What did you make of that statement by Georgina Beyer, Phil?

      I was wondering whether it was taken out of context and was a little surprised there was nothing on the internet about it.

      • phillip ure 55.1.1

        i scratched my head..

        ..i actually scratched my head when beyer was announced as a candidate..

        ..(but that’s another story..)

        ..beyer seemed to be pushing the idea that somehow harawira/harre/sykes/minto et al..are dotcoms’ playthings…

        ..which is just farcical/ludicrous to anyone with the slightest knowledge of those people..

        ..and having heard boag say she had been speaking to a mana person..(who said much the same that beyer said..)

        ..and if boag wasn’t just outright lying…(is this a day ending is a ‘y’..)…i thought that beyer was most likely the mana ‘insider’ boag had been talking to..

        ..(them knowing each other from when beyer was in parl b4…)

        ..and i think beyer if is unhappy..she should just resign..

        ..and slip back into obscurity..

        • blue leopard 55.1.1.1

          I don’t suppose you know where abouts you heard Boag talking about that?

          It is a real pity re Beyer’s comments.

          I am a wee bit divided about the whole Dotcom/Mana connection.

          I initially thought it was an excellent idea, yet have reservations about it now 🙁

          I really like the way Dotcom speaks out on things, perhaps a little uncomfortable since he became so strongly involved in politics.

          Love Laila’s style, she’s fantastic!

          I probably would prefer that the two parties were more separate from one another – I thought they were going to be distinct from one another, yet joined as far as vote count. They appeal to quite different groups.

          • McFlock 55.1.1.1.1

            yeah, i’m a wee bit torn as to whether it makes me more or less likely to vote imp on the day – kdc is a bit meh, but laila was a fine choice. And Hone’s softened a bit, too. Growing a bit of discretion.

            • blue leopard 55.1.1.1.1.1

              Funny!…bcos I am slightly on the other side – support Mana – like the strong voice/support for the least privileged in society that they provide. Definitely approve of Laila, yet less fussed re the thrust of the Internet policies.

              I guess the good thing about it is I don’t have to choose between the two 🙂 But definitely not happy if there is going to be lack of unity between the two.

              I am going to treat that tv3 item with suspicion until further information comes to light.

          • phillip ure 55.1.1.1.2

            probably in that hoots/boag brouhaha..

            ..(but i can’t guarantee that..there has been a lot of boag lately..)

            • blue leopard 55.1.1.1.2.1

              It wasn’t in that one yesterday, I listened to it.

              I’ll go off and do a google search

              • on second thoughts..i saw her say it..

                ..and it was a throwaway comment..not a thesis..

                ..but that was my first thought when i saw beyer..

                ..that..going on those common words.. it was likely beyer who boag had been talking to..

                • blue leopard

                  Ah…so prob on something like Q&A.

                  I wish Mana would put out some sort of statement on what Beyer said. It is pretty worrying and could simply be some awful made-up spin to destabilize the party.

                  I’m not having much luck finding anything.

        • Inky 55.1.1.2

          Exactly, if Beyer feels that strongly, jump the canoe. Can’t believe she’d wait until three weeks out before springing this, though. It’s not her opinion that irks me, it’s the timing. She’s had months to spit the KDC dummy, why leave it this late? The Nats have a spare space in their rowboat now that Key’s taken Cupcake Collins’ oar off her. Perhaps Beyer would enjoy being among that crew, instead? Because what she’s done is a bit of a dirty trick in its own right.

  53. weka 56

    If Maori Party had balance of power who’d Waiariki voters want them to coalition with? 26% National 63% Labour 11% Don’t Know

  54. adam 57

    Not the worlds best song.

    But wow, just weird. It’s not 1984 – but it’s still the same lies from those in power.

    Afrika Bambaataa feat.John Lydon – World Destruction

  55. weka 58

    Downtown ‏@D3vils_Helper 48 mins
    @nikkikaye Senior Housing Department managers predicted that this would happen if their functions were handed to WINZ why did no one listen?

    Downtown ‏@D3vils_Helper 57 mins
    @PaulHenryShow This can be attributed to WINZ taking on Housing Dept functions without the proper Training. WINZ have a different agenda

    https://twitter.com/D3vils_Helper/status/506382538638508032

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