Open Mike 01/09/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 1st, 2017 - 117 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

117 comments on “Open Mike 01/09/2017”

  1. Tony Veitch (not etc) 1

    I know I am just echoing the expressions of others on the left here, and I should say again, that I’m working to secure a Labour candidate to parliament . . .

    But the revolution is not upon us! Andrew Little represented neoliberalism with a smiling face – Jacinda Ardern – neoliberalism with a pretty and appealing face.

    Sure, a more compassionate and caring government, but really fundamental change – I think not. In American terms our choice is the lesser of two evils.

    I just hope, but I’m not holding my breath, that JA comes across as a more social democrat than a liberal in the next debate.

    • Ad 1.1

      You should just thank your lucky stars she isn’t appealing any harder to the left.

      Without really trying she has already sucked most of the Greens’ supporters to Labour. If she tried any harder for those voters the Green Party would not exist in Parliament in three weeks’ time.

      She is beginning to leach support off National, which is where the remaining voter returns are.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc) 1.1.1

        She’s not getting my vote – I’ll be party voting Green – with more emphasis than ever now! The Greens need to be in parliament, just listen to Metiria to understand why!

      • francesca 1.1.2

        Hopefuly, if Labour is looking well ahead of Nat in the polls, voters may feel they can safely return their party vote to the Greens.
        Ideally Jacinda now concentrates on winning soft National voters over.

        • Bearded Git


          It is not about Labour being well ahead of National, it is about the Labour/Green bloc being well ahead of National. If the Greens don’t get back Labour will be stuck with NZF.

          Anybody to the Left who is umming and arrring between Labour and the Greens should vote Green.

          • McFlock

            If the election were tomorrow, I’d probably vote Green.
            And have a shower afterwards, because I hate hippies.

            • Robert Guyton

              Showering won’t get you rid of your hippies, McFlock – they’re firmly attached to your pelvis. Learn to love them; they dictate how you walk; hating them will have you waltzing around like a fop.

              • McFlock

                Nothing wrong with being a fop, I’m a great fan of Oscar Wilde.

                Although I agree with Michael Gambon, it doesn’t half make your eyes water…

          • Draco T Bastard

            People should probably fill this in and then vote for the party which has their greatest support.

            Mine is, of course, Green.

            • Siobhan

              Mine was Green…but NZ First was pretty darned close.
              Too close.
              So given I’d rather chew off my arm that vote NZ First, I’m going to go suggest there is something fundamentally flawed about ticking one sentence policy summaries without wrapping each option with your own personal political context and ‘Bullshit’ warning device.. .

              • There is that but each had a link to the full policy. The problem being that nobody’s got the time to read 315 full policy documents.

                That said, I also think that some of those one line policy descriptions were fundamentally wrong.

  2. eco Maori/kiwi 2

    Well got my other computer sorted so I don’t have to watch news hub.
    I have to remind Duncan one does not pat ones self on the back especially on TV.
    To be fair Duncan is ok at least he is worried about his image. but Mark Richardson just loves himself an is in his own world a chauvinistic neo liberal I won’t say those last two words. His publicist must have payed a lot of money for him to win that title that he likes to boast about Yes those comps are ridged to. The lady from Gisborne helps make watching news hub bearable but her opinions are drowned out by the other two.

    I liked Morgan and parts of his policy’s I was talking to someone and he said exactly what I was thinking that Morgan policy’s need to be more humane. At least he has us talking about UBI and other tax’s I was going to vote for Tops but have since changed my mind to vote Green

    Jacinda you got this don’t stress . When you go into TV NZ or any bias media out fit make sure to take your support team with you so those people don’t isolate you .

    • eco Maori/kiwi 2.1

      Wow Breakfast must think all the viewers are idiots .
      Especially when those young peoples opinions on last nights Debate broadcasted at 750 am are clearly scripted .
      No Its national that thinks were idiots to .
      Bring back Hilary

  3. Morrissey 3

    Paula Penfold made an impressive appearance on the A.M. show
    —but the sports guy looked REALLY unhappy!

    Watch Mark Richardson’s display of dumb hostility as Paula Penfold talks….

    • Muttonbird 3.1

      Agree. Quite apart from the TV3 line (and I quote), ‘he’s paid to have an opinion even if we don’t like it’, his body language in that piece is terrible and I imagine the TV3 people will be speaking to him about being more positive and engaged rather than looking like surly drunk at closing time.

  4. Cinny 5

    In our local paper national list mp maureen pugh has an election ad, at the bottom is the “N” national logo, next to it is a circle with a tick in it.

    The funny thing is the placement of the “N” and the circle next to each looks like the word “NO” with a tick in the O.

    Crack up, wish I could show you all, so funny

  5. weka 6

    Fucksake, Rachel Smalley twitter headline,

    Rachel Smalley: I was wrong: Ardern is the front-runner to be our next PM, via @nzherald

    Comment: Rachel Smalley admits she should never have written off Labour

    Here’s an idea. How about you keep your opinions to yourself and cover the election without trying to influence the outcome?

  6. Carolyn_nth 7

    For 3 years, Winston Peters has been referred to by mainstream journos as “the king maker” in the 2017 election.

    Now Colin James at RNS is floating the idea of a Labour-Green-Māori Party Government:

    Poll of Polls – A Colmar Brunton poll for TV1 taken through the five days to Wednesday has sharply lifted Labour’s RNZ poll of polls’ average and put Labour and the Greens combined ahead of National.

    If the trend continues through the next three weeks Labour could possibly govern with just the Greens and the Māori Party.

    On the latest figures, National would need New Zealand First to govern. If the downtrend continues that would take it out of contention for government.

    New Zealand First continued its downtrend in the latest average, to 9.1% rounded, enough for 11 seats.

    He argues that the GP downward slide looks to be bottoming-out.

  7. NewsFlash 8

    Audrey Young has Jacinda ahead in the debate last night, the tide must be turning for her to admit that.

    Hosking punched Bill on the nose with his question, “why are you losing” and then reiterated it, Hosking started out reasonably fair, but finished on Bills side.

    Goood story in the Guardian this morning.

  8. Carolyn_nth 9

    Metiria Turei is campaigning strongly to stay in parliament as an electorate MP, without any leadership or ministerial responsibilities.

    RNZ reports:

    Mrs Turei is campaigning for election in Te Tai Tonga, held by Labour’s Rino Tirikatene at the last election with a comfortable 3500-vote majority.

    “I want to be back… and I want to be back with a mandate,” she told the meeting.

    She said she would take her name off the party list but would continue to stand in the Te Tai Tonga electorate.

    Ms Turei told the meeting she still did not regret announcing she had committed benefit fraud.

    “It’s still worth it … I don’t think we would have had as strong a movement for change if I hadn’t raised this issue and the only way I could raise it was to tell my story,” she said.

    Ms Turei reiterated she would not seek a position as co-leader or any ministerial responsibilities if she was elected.

    “My time as co-leader is done … It’s a question if my time as an MP is done or not – that’s up to Te Tai Tonga voters.”

    • DSpare 9.1

      Turei is; Ngāti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa, whereas Tirakatene is; Kai Tahu, which counts for a lot. Te Tai Tonga only includes Wellington in the north along with Te Wai Pounamu (and Rakiura) to make up the electorate numbers, but not the Wairarapa. Plus the Tirakatene’s are a dynasty of parliamentarians; starting back in 1932 when Eruera was elected as the first Ratana MP, and succeeded by his daughter Whetu on his death in 1967. Even Katene, who Tirikatene beat in the electorate to become an MP came from the same hapū.

      I’m not saying that it would be a bad thing, just that I’m not expecting it. Turei has do it all on her own mana (which is considerable), whereas Tirikatene has decades of mana inherited through whanau, as well as his own achievements (eg chief executive officer for the Federation of Maori Authorities).

      And both Turei and Tirakatene are off their parties lists, so there is no possibility of a; two for one bonus MP, as there is with Davis & Harawira in Te Tai Tokerau.

    • tracey 9.2

      If it is the meeting I was at, the unreported bit is that when two different people asked how to support her? She told them to party Vote Green and gave a huge endorsement to all her colleagues. She send in the end it is not about her, a Party vote Green will see all she is arguing for represented and advocated.

    • ianmac 10.1

      Doubt it. No such system in USA. Could impeach him for serious misdemeanor but that takes a long time. Can’t see a military coup of some sort. Can you?

      • AsleepWhileWalking 10.1.1

        I think he is surrounded by people who will betray him and expect his impeachment within a year.

        • CoroDale

          Hey, there are some positive signs, but it’s not against Trump, its going the other way. The prime Gangsters like McCain are being give a strong message. Seems that in 2017, there are brain tumors and there are e-brain tumers.

          Link here as in indirect example. These alternative media like zero-hedge are mostly true, but many also corrupted into the fear-porn style of propaganda. Sure there are big problems, but there are also active solutions, which zero-hedge is intentionally not mentioning.

          As the Greens say,
          Positive, Principled and Practical.
          With more politicians taking this path,
          things will work-them-selves-out.
          All will be well.

      • CoroDale 10.1.2

        Naah, that link was just spyware, and Cabal propaganda. There was a small military coup a year or two ago, which replaced the friends-of-Bush. The new military dictator is UN appointed. But the main coup was decades ago. JKF dead as a door-nail. Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq… over real-estate deals. And Obama gets a Peace Prize for his continued support of the industrial military complex. Democracy? – In Hobbiton maybe, but not it the USA, sorry.

        Super-dodgy black-net are still talking about man-made storms and potential of vaccine holocausts. No hint of a fresh coup to replace the last coup.

        AsleepWhileWaking – your link could have cost me my credit-card#, if I hadn’t all already cancelled it.

  9. D Meatwhistle 13

    So my take on the debate was that firstly it wasn’t a debate, it was a, mostly, amicable discussion

    Jacinda was light on details and big on emotion and Bill just isn’t a salesperson (ie boring) so no real surprise there

    I may now have to vote NZFirst to make sure the worst excesses of Labour to come to pass as Labour are now in the box seat for winning the election because I can’t se Bill English coming out and attacking Jacinda (because if he did he’d be judged sexist, of course)

    Best option from here is Labour/NZFirst, will probably make Sir Bob Jones happy I guess

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1

      It’s going to be a Green/Labour government. I hope they invite NZ1st into the tent too, for various reasons, but they won’t need them.

      That’s the best option for New Zealand. You will weep and wail and deny as it lifts your boat too.

      • D Meatwhistle 13.1.1

        I don’t think Labour/Greens will be enough as Labour (and fair play to them) seem to be taking votes off everyone, Greens included

        I think Lab/NZFirst will be enough for them

    • McFlock 13.2

      I know I might seem to be a Labour cheerleader at times, but I still giggle when tories talk about the “worst excesses of Labour” as if it’s proposing mass confiscation of assets and land.

      • D Meatwhistle 13.2.1

        To be fair I could have worded that better but when Labours tax policy seems to be “wait until after the election and we’ll tell you” it doesn’t fill me with a whole lot of confidence

        [pick a consistent handle and stick to it. Also, commenting under completely different names looks dodgy, and I’m sure you don’t want moderators looking too closely – weka]

        • McFlock

          Yes, you’d prefer to be lied to by st johnkey rather than have an honest comment

          • DSpare

            Labour do have form when it comes to; “mass confiscation of assets and land”, the Seabed and Foreshore act was exactly that to many Māori. Not that I recall the tories have much problem with this, and the concessions in the Marine and Coastal Area act were largely consmetic.

            • McFlock

              True that, to be fair.

              I was thinking more the mass collectivisation by the Soviets in the 1920s, that sort of thing.

              I suppose the thing that terrifies tories is mass confiscation of assets and land from white people 👿

            • tracey

              The Tories didn’t think the SEabed and Foreshore Act went far enough

          • Dirk Meatwhistle

            Well I think its human nature that you prefer to be lied to by someone you like instead of someone you don’t

            I mean do you believe that Jacinda and Grant don’t really know what they’re going to with tax and that they’re just waiting for the working group to tell them?

            • McFlock

              Pretty much.

              I think they have a fair idea that the current system will be fundamentally changed, but any actual specifics of FTT vs CGT vs wealth vs PAYE vs inheritance vs gift vs rebates vs loopholes vs loss-making businesses vs benefits vs UBI… I don’t think anyone knows, or indeed has looked at a complete systemic revamp in 60 years.

              That’s basically the issue – a massive change will need the sign-on of the populace but especially all parliament, and if they can entrench it all the better. So the first year or two, yes, they will work within conventional fiscal restraints. But late this term or even for election 2020 there could well be a systemic change on the table with specific proposals.

              But I think that dunnokeyo always intended to boost GDP, but lied about it.

        • weka

          please read the moderator note above and acknowledge that you’ve understood.

        • NewsFlash

          D Meatwhistle

          What, not like Bill’s lolly scramble, didn’t Jacinda repeat what she has already stated, that she would take any tax changes to the next election, unlike Bill who just forced it on the country unannounced and now NZ has the highest and worst example of GST in the entire world.

          John Howard lost his election trying to bribe the constituents with tax cuts, the people aren’t that DUMB, they can see the hospitals and schools are’nt doing so good, and homelessness is rampant and in the face of all society.

        • One Anonymous Bloke


          Sockpuppet fail.

  10. Morrissey 14

    Lynn Freeman failed to do her job this morning.
    RNZ National, Friday 1 September 2017, 9:50 p.m.

    She’s far superior to, much more thoughtful than, the regular host Kathryn “OH-kay!” Ryan, but this morning Lynn Freeman allowed RNZ National’s “Asia correspondent” Anna Fifield to deliver a one-sided and misleading “report” on the North Korean missile launch. By failing to mention the dangerous “war games” on the North Korean border carried out by the United States and its minions (including a small number of hapless Australian soldiers) Anna Fifield acted as little more than a propagandist. And Lynn Freeman by her silence endorsed this travesty.

    Appalled, I flicked the following email to the host of the show….

    Dear Lynn,

    In your talk with Asia correspondent Anna Fifield, much was made of the North Korean missile launch, but neither of you uttered a single word about the ceaseless provocation of U.S. and South Korean military exercises on its border. These North Korean missile launches are responses to this intimidation, but when they are routinely ignored, it distorts the truth. Your listeners deserve better.

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • Bearded Git 14.1

      Agree re Freeman being far better than Ryan..+100

    • Pat 14.2

      you would appear to be a difficult candidate to satisfy… would be hard pressed to find a more professional, impartial journalist than Lynn Freeman….I suspect that incessant attitude of complaint will render those occasions it is warranted ignored….as it should.

    • CoroDale 14.3

      Solid comment, and look at the neo-Bolsheviks below fall away into a hen fight over worm length.

      Wasn’t the S Korean Govt overthrown last year by the general public, because it was being run by a Cabal? Google have probably removed that from the news already, not a good precedent for Western Democracies.

      Shameless geo-politics (love the way spell check rejects that word) from RNZ, and The Standard isn’t much better. But ya can’t fight battles on every front.

      Press-vigilance, of the up-most importance, thanks Morrissey.

  11. Robert Guyton 15

    D Meatwhistle – is the “D” for dead? And is “whistle” a typo for gristle? And are you linked to Chuck “steak”, Blade “steak” and other such meats? If you disappear, will someone named “Rump” take your place? You’d like to see Bill “attack” Jacinda? I bet you adored John Key’s salesman skills – used cars, encyclopedia, vacumn cleaners, assets, he could sell them all!

    • D Meatwhistle 15.1

      It stands for Dirk (my work keyboards getting a bit iffy, probably because my work out put is exceptional)

      No I personally don’t want to see Bill attack Jacinda however, from Bills pov, attacking Jacinda is Bills only option because Jacinda is running on feel good emotion (a bit like John Key) and Bill runs on facts but lacks charisma

      Yes Sir John Key has been our best PM since *insert whichever leader you feel appropriate here* so good in fact that Jacinda has basically copied him which isn’t a bad thing because Sir John copied a lot from Helen Clark

      Be that as it may I still contend that what we got last night wasn’t a debate at all

      • McFlock 15.1.1

        The meatwhistle loves a john key. Who would have thunk it…

      • Robert Guyton 15.1.2

        So, Dirk, why have you chosen an offensive word as your handle? It’s not just your keyboard that’s “a bit iffy”. And John Key? You are easily deceived, Dirk.

      • NewsFlash 15.1.3

        D Meatwhistle

        ” Bill runs on facts but lacks charisma”

        Part of that statement is correct, I bet you don’t know which bit!!

        Bill is a LIAR, here’s an example: housing affordability is better now than in 2008.

      • Bill runs on facts


        Oh, wait, you were actually serious…


        • Robert Guyton

          Perhaps it’s another Dirky-typo; facts for farts and Dirk is remembering this quote from JasonJohns at Kiwiblog:

          “Bottom line: Bill needed to be hot shit on toast tonight. Instead, he was cold fart on bread.”
          Bill runs on facts farts.

          • D Meatwhistle

            After last nights performance it probably would have helped if he had let rip a long, loud one


            • weka

              Moderator awaiting a response,

              Open Mike 01/09/2017

              • Dirk Meatwhistle

                Yeah sorry about that, I meant to type Dirk but the keyboard I’m using is a bit iffy so it didn’t go through and then once it was locked in I just left it

                • Muttonbird

                  Hey Einstein, the Dirk bit is not the issue.

                  • weka

                    Actually the Dirk bit was part of the issue.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Ok. I thought the complete troll that is Dirk Meatwhistle would instead have named his stupid self as Dick Meatwhistle.

                      He can’t even get that right…

                • weka


                  There is another comment today under a completely different name, so if someone else is using your internet access as well as you please email Lynn and let him know. At the moment it looks like a sock puppet because of the number of different names you have used this year.

                  • Dirk Meatwhistle

                    Are they really intelligent, erudite and wittily amusing comments? If so they’re obviously mine 🙂

                    [kind of getting the impression you are here to wind people up. Given the election is on and the site is busy and I don’t want extra moderation work, I’m going to ask you to choose a new name. One that isn’t sexualised and that you are happy to stick with for the next year. Putting you in moderation until you decide. Let me know by making a comment – weka]

  12. Eco maori 16

    I’m happy the Muppets are leaving my elderly clients alone I enjoy talking to them.
    They all want me to carry on mowing some of them have given me a barbecue one gave me a mower and some guy on Dickson road gave me a electric leaf blower I did Not even want as I have no use for it I like recycling so I took it home I will give it to someone who will use it.
    They just want to go to war so be it.
    They are still following me around Muppets

    • eco Maori/kiwi 16.1

      It mite seem like my post on my problem are random they are not it is all strategic

      • greywarshark 16.1.1

        Hey eco Maori/s
        It’s a bit confusing but I get you are different people, are you starting an eco maori group getting together but with your own pseudos added on to get some more Maori news on the blog? But what will we do if you take on the recent challenge to only use Maori for a day, week etc? Don’t do it please all the time as we won’t be able to get up speed to learn what your thoughts are.

        Glad EM that you are having a better time with your mowing clients. Could be good if you keep a note of dates, times and where the Muppets are following you that you know for sure. Special notebook that you just quietly note in out of sight, and do each day. It might be handy for you if you have trouble with them some time in future and say they are waiting to jump you. Why aren’t they out doing some positive things like working with unemployed kids etc? You could offer to go in each day and report on what you’ve been up to. Sometimes when you are so open and honest it annoys them and they might tell you to get the hell out of it, they never want to see you again. Which would suit you fine I guess.

  13. Morrissey 17

    Fomenting happy mischief over on Kiwiblog….

    “Hidden due to low comment rating.”—the ultimate accolade.

  14. Peroxide Blonde 18

    Another Election in the UK soon.

    1. May now says she wants to lead the Tories into the next General Election. 1922 Committee members say she is delusional. This is the starting gun for those who want to be the next leader: Johnson, Ree-Mogg, Rudd, Davis and Hammond are runners and Javid is an long shot if there is a generational change. Brexiteers will not have Hammond. SNP can’t wait for Johnson or Rees-Mogg!!

    2. The EU negotiations are (understatement) a train wreck. There is not enough paper or ink to describe the incompetence and ignorance of the Davis leadership. They are heading to an exit over the cliff. The public unease is growing and calls for change are getting louder.

    3. Corbyn is finally developing a position on Brexit: an un-achievable and immature one but at least he is developing some sense of responsibility in the matter. There is now a perceived difference between Labour and the Tories.

    4. Another election might be enough to push Scotland and Northern Ireland to take the real steps to staying in the EU. The resulting break-up of the Union may be enough of a shock to England for them to change politics ala 1945 and reverse Brexit. Corbyn and May et al will be history in a couple of years.

  15. Cinny 19

    Thank you LABOUR and Chris Hipkins, thank you from our community, the families, the girls at Salisbury, the staff and potential students and their families. THANK YOU.

    Once you are in government, I look forward to more people being made aware of and more enrollments for this standout facility, the only one of it’s kind in NZ. Salisbury School has and does save lives and relieves suffering. Am all emotional at this news, to see it in print in the paper just before an election, THANK YOU Chris, Rachel and Labour

    Hipkins said a Labour-led government would “take the brakes off the admission process, which is the thing that’s strangled them” and keep Salisbury open as a single-sex residential school

    • Robert Guyton 19.1

      Hey, Cinny. My mum used to teach at Salisbury and I spent a fair bit of time there at the weekends, fyi.

      • greywarshark 19.1.1

        Yes I know Salisbury School and remember it in Mrs Robinson’s time. They did and still do a good job, just that the bar has been set so high that few people can get away from the government’s smothering wrap-around embrace to gain entry to this fine, useful facility.

      • Cinny 19.1.2

        Respect 😀

  16. ‘The Daily’: A Conversation With a Former White Nationalist

    Derek Black grew up in West Palm Beach, Fla., across the water from the president’s Mar-a-Lago mansion, which he drove past almost every day in a red pickup truck with a Confederate flag sticker on the back window.

    His father is Don Black, a former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, and his godfather is David Duke. Derek was poised to help lead the white nationalist movement. And then he left, betraying his family and friends in the process.

    On today’s episode:

    We talk with Derek Black about the movement he left behind, and its role in America over the past year.

    It’s a podcast (which means that I haven’t actually listened to it) but there’s also links to previous articles on the page which make for interesting reading.

  17. Muttonbird 21

    Just how does a PPP work with respect to schools, in this case Whangarei Boy’s High School?

    Assuming it costs around $10K per annum to educate a secondary student will National just be paying private investors a proportion of that continually year on year on year if said investors enter a PPP for the bricks and mortar?

    No details from National on this which is of great concern.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 21.1

      I dunno but if you home school (which sounds like a PPP to me) the State used to contribute around $700/year/child. Not sure what it is at present but won’t be much higher – in a PPP the State appears to be a tight fisted partner who will expect someone else to pick up the slack.

      • Muttonbird 21.1.1

        I’m going off my child’s special character school. They receive about $6.5m from the government as a decile 8 and about $3m in contributions from parents. The roll is about 950 students.

        I’m also going to suggest One Tree Hill College gets approx $9.5m from the government as a decile 3 school and $200k from parents. The roll is approx 1000 students. I’ve tried to look this up with no success so I could be wrong on this.

        Interested in what you said about home schooling being a PPP. It is.

  18. Cinny 22

    THANKS LABOUR for removing secondary tax ROCK ON !!!

    Just dropped in to the office and found out 😀 Looking for a link to back it up

    • Exkiwiforces 22.1

      If this is correct Cinny, its about bloody time and been should’ve have removed years ago.

    • Dirk Meatwhistle 22.2

      Removing secondary tax or aligning it with current tax? Either way that’s actually a very good announcement.

      • Cinny 22.2.1

        taking it away and replacing it with current tax, sorry was so excited lolz, it’s such good news

        This is a major for me, just like many kiwis I work more than one job.

        Have heard that many on the benefit who have a small part time job get taxed so harshly with secondary, that often it’s not worth it, example is working 5 hours a week and being only $10 better off, hardly motivating for anyone to find parttime work

        • Dirk Meatwhistle

          So the secondary tax is going to be the same as the main tax the person is already paying? I’m all good with that, its fair and will probably encourage more people to work and get ahead so good job Labour

          • Cinny

            Correct Dirk. makes it a much fairer system for all.

            • AsleepWhileWalking

              And it will help so many who work 3 pt jobs to get by. And those wanting to get off benefits.

              So glad L are not continuing the penalty of the past.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Have heard that many on the benefit who have a small part time job get taxed so harshly with secondary, that often it’s not worth it, example is working 5 hours a week and being only $10 better off, hardly motivating for anyone to find parttime work

          That’s because of the ~70% marginal tax rate that applies when a beneficiary works. Any income over a set amount the benefit is reduced by the same amount.

    • You do realise that if you filled in a tax return every year you’d get any excess tax paid back don’t you?

      In fact, there’s a major industry going on about it as tax accountants charge you for it when you could do it yourself for free just by simply talking to IRD.

      Getting rid of the secondary tax is going to do nothing for you if you don’t fill in your tax return.

      And, yes, I know that IRD has been encouraging people not to fill them in. That should have been illegal but I suppose it’s one way to reduce the number of people needed at IRD.

      • Cinny 22.3.1

        Weekly fair tax rather than annual lump sum on completion of forms etc, Awesome, the worker can gather $ from interest of money they’ve earned rather than the IRD.

        For sure about the major industry of tax accountants, bunch of cowboys taking advantage of those uneducated on certain topics via media advertising. Financial literacy in schools? Yes please and thank you 😀

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    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    5 hours ago
  • No one is born into the wrong body
    A short and incredibly powerful speech from a young lesbian woman. No one is born in the wrong body. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    22 hours ago
  • Contempt
    Back in June, the UK Court of Appeal ruled that that country's continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia were unlawful. So you'd expect that the UK government stopped approving them, right?Of course not:The government has apologised for breaching a court ruling against the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    23 hours ago
  • Covering up the cover-up
    Yesterday NZDF officials were put on the stand about the lies they had told over Operation Burnham, making implausible claims that it was all a big mistake. But along the way, we learned they had already been put on the spot about it by a previous Defence Minister, who had ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    24 hours ago
  • Not as important as they think they are
    Farmers have been whining a lot lately, about the methane targets in the Zero Carbon Bill, about Canterbury's proposed nitrogen limits, and about the government's new proposals to stop them from shitting in our lakes and rivers. These policies are "throwing farmers under the tractor", they will force farmers off ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • Behind Every Good Woman Should Stand – Another Good Woman.
    Alone, Alone, All, All, Alone: To argue that the Prime Minister is the victim of her advisers’ failure to keep her informed may offer Jacinda some measure of exoneration – but only at the cost of casting her as a hopeless political ingénue. A star-dusted muppet, whose only purpose is to ...
    1 day ago
  • Poor quality, poorly educated kiddie ‘Journalists’ spreading fake news
    In times of hysteria about the “World coming to an end” and “rising sea levels” so-called ‘Journalists’ who can barely spell words longer than four letters are having a ball! Though the majority of the Public have worked out that manmade climate change is nothing short of pseudo-science, and the ...
    An average kiwiBy
    1 day ago
  • Chris Trotter on the BFD
    I don't want to give pblicity to certain parts of the internet that are better left to fester in their own irrelevance (I know, a bit like this place) but the listing of Chris Trotter as a 'author' on Cameron Slater's spinoff website, the BFD requires some explanation.Now, I don't ...
    2 days ago
  • Sex is not a spectrum
    The text below is a Twitter thread by Heather Heying that explains the essence of sexual reproduction and it long evolutionary history. She is an evolutionary biologist and a “professor-in-exile” after she and her husband, Bret Weinstein, stood up to supporters of an enforced “Day of Absence” for white staff and teachers ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • Climate Change: Trees, aviation, and offsets
    With crunch time for new Zealand climate policy approaching, most of the New Zealand media have got on board with a global reporting effort to cover the issue. There's one strand of stories today about polling and what it shows about changing public attitudes to the crisis, but the strand ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Pissing-Off The Israelis Is A High-Risk Strategy.
    Dangerous Foes: For those readers of Bowalley Road who feel disposed to dismiss any prospect of an Israeli destabilisation of New Zealand politics, the example of the United Kingdom repays close attention. Ever since the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the British Labour Party, the Israelis have sanctioned, funded and ...
    2 days ago
  • Something to go to in Wellington
    Make It 16, the youth-led campaign to lower New Zealand's voting age, is holding an official campaign launch at Parliament this Friday from 16:30. If you'd like to attend, you can register using EventBrite here. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • A founding member responds to Peace Action Wellington
    by Don Franks It was a lovely sunny Wellington afternoon with blue skies above  the beaches.  In Courtenay Place, political activists packed out a stuffy upstairs room for an important meeting. The assembled pacifists, anarchists, communists and independent young radicals of Peace Action Wellington felt the need for a mission ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 days ago
  • “Mistakes and errors”
    Current and former NZDF top brass are being publicly grilled this week by the hit and run inquiry over their public responses to allegations of civilian casualties. Previously, they've claimed there were no casualties, a position which led them to lie to Ministers and to the public. Now, they're saying ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • “Homosexuality is same-sex attraction and relationships, not heterosexuals with delusions of gende...
    by Rafael D. Quiles (gender-critical gay man from Puerto Rico) The writing on the wall is right in people’s faces and people just don’t see it or don’t want to. What could actually possess a heterosexual male to want to feminize himself and claim that he is a lesbian? Because ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    3 days ago
  • Trump: “Where’s my favourite dictator?”
    From the Wall Street Journal:Inside a room of the ornately decorated Hotel du Palais during last month’s Group of Seven summit in Biarritz, France, President Trump awaited a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi. Mr. Trump looked over a gathering of American and Egyptian officials and called out in ...
    3 days ago
  • Magdalen Burns, 1983-2019, fighter for women’s liberation
    by the Redline blog collective At Redline we are very saddened to hear of the death of Magdalen Burns who passed away on the morning of Friday, September 13 (British time). Magdalen was a great fighter for the rights of women in general and lesbian women in particular, a defender ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    4 days ago
  • Parliament and the Executive
    The Brexit issue has certainly brought with it a series of apparently difficult constitutional issues, many of them concerning the respective roles of the executive and parliament. Most of them arise because of the unwillingness of MPs, despite their professions to the contrary, to be bound by a constitutional rarity ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    4 days ago
  • The Abigail Article; Martyn Bradbury’s Article, and My Response
    . . This blogpost is different to my usual format of reporting on issues… Since July 1011, I have blogged on a variety of political issues; near always political and/or environmental; mostly highly critical of the previous National Government. Other issues included Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and repression of ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    4 days ago
  • Police will have to wear silly Buckingham Palace hats from now on, says Police Minister
    Those close to the Police Minister believe the initiative may be the result of Nash “seeing a great deal” on AliExpress. In a move that comes seemingly out of nowhere, Police Minister Stuart Nash announced this afternoon that he expects all frontline staff to don bearskin hats, famously worn by ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    5 days ago
  • A sensible crackdown
    The government has released its Arms Legislation Bill, containing the second tranche of changes to gun laws following the March 15 massacre. And it all looks quite sensible: a national gun register, higher penalties for illegal possession and dealing, tighter restrictions on arms dealers and shooting clubs, and a shorter ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • California bans private prisons
    Private prisons are a stain on humanity. Prison operators explicitly profit from human misery, then lobby for longer prisons terms so they can keep on profiting. And in the US, prison companies run not only local and state prisons, but also Donald Trump's immigration concentration camps. Faced with this moral ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Why PPPs are a bad idea
    When National was in power, they were very keen on Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) - basicly, using private companies to finance public infrastructure as a way of hiding debt from the public. They were keen on using them for everything - roads, schools, hospitals. But as the UK shows, that "service" ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • A Movement That No Longer Moves.
    Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...
    5 days ago
  • NZ ‘left’ politically embracing extreme postmodernism
    by Philip Ferguson Much of the left, even people who formally identify as marxists, have collapsed politically in the face of postmodern gender theory of the sort pioneered by American philosopher Judith Butler. For Butler even biological sex is socially constructed. “If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    6 days ago
  • The obvious question
    The media is reporting that the (alleged) Labour party sexual assaulter has resigned from their job at Parliament, which means hopefully he won't be turning up there making people feel unsafe in future. Good. But as with everything about this scandal, it just raises other questions. Most significantly: why the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • The moment I found out that you found out, I acted swiftly
    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    6 days ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    6 days ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    7 days ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    7 days ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    7 days ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    7 days ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Democracy – I Don’t Think So
    So, those who “know best” have again done their worst. While constantly claiming to be the guardians of democracy and the constitution, and respecters of the 2016 referendum result, diehard Remainers (who have never brought themselves to believe that their advice could have been rejected) have striven might and main ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Government says it will now build just one really nice home
    Following publication of this article, the Ministry has requested it to be noted that this supplied image is not necessarily representative of what the final house will look like, and it “probably won’t be that nice.” As part of today’s long-anticipated reset of the Government’s flagship KiwiBuild policy, Housing Minister ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Imperialism and your cup of coffee
    Over the next week or two we will be running three synopses of parts of the opening chapter of John Smith’s Imperialism in the 21st Century (New York, Monthly Review Press, 2016).  The synopsis and commentary below is written by Phil Duncan. Marx began Capital not with a sweeping historical ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Still juking the stats
    The State Services Commission and Ombudsman have released another batch of OIA statistics, covering the last six months. Request volumes are up, and the core public service is generally handling them within the legal timeframe, though this may be because they've learned to extend rather than just ignore things. And ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

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