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Open Mike 01/10/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 1st, 2017 - 72 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

72 comments on “Open Mike 01/10/2017 ”

  1. ScottGN 1

    I see the MMP bashers are surfacing. Damien Grant in Stuff lamenting the landslide victory National would have won under FPP.

    • JanM 1.1

      So stupid it’s hilarious.
      But on the side of the angels there’s a nice piece from David Slack:

      • Sanctuary 1.1.1

        “…So stupid it’s hilarious…”


        It creates the ridiculous straw man of perfect government under FPP. The same FPP which saw the scrapping of the visionary Kirk Superannuation scheme and all that was Muldoonism.

        MMP was introduced because of the abject failure of FPP. From 1987 to 1996 FPP elections returned governments that had lied to the electorate then proceeded to behave like elected dictatorships ramming through hard right economic reforms. The purpose of MMP was to ensure that never again Rogernomic/Ruthenania could be inflicted on the country against it’s will and so far it has done that.

        For example, we would never have scrapped Kirk’s super scheme in 1975 if we had have MMP. Muldoons “landslide” was with 47.59% of the vote. He would have needed Social Credit to govern, or alternatively Labour, Social Credit and the Values party (5.19%!) could have formed a government.

        • Pat

          neither stupid nor hilarious but rather a sad commentary on the past 9 years

        • Carolyn_nth

          There’s a double play going on from National here: there’s a short term ploy to weaken NZF’s hand in doing a deal with the Nats.

          There’s a long term ploy in trying to weaken and split the Green Party – to split the centrists from the left wingers, both in GP membership and broader support. And also the ploy to de-legitimise any possible NZF-Lab-GP government.

          So, folks, we are warned. This is the way the Nats will play it for the next few years, whether the Nats or Labour get to lead a new government.

          The Nats will try to continue to weaken the GP and thereby any strong left wing platform. They will also try to continue to de-legitimise MMP.

          • Draco T Bastard

            So, folks, we are warned. This is the way the Nats will play it for the next few years, whether the Nats or Labour get to lead a new government.

            They will lie, deceive and disrupt to try to undermine any possibility of a Left government.

          • Grey Area

            Good points Carolyn_nth. Normally I would hope that Kiwis would see through such moves but I was discouraged to see how many NZers were willing to believe National’s election campaign lies.

            I’ve been picking up the whole theme of “how dare one man hold a country to ransom, blah, blah ,blah..” I note he is described as “unelected” (meaning on the list) which I thought put him in the same category as the Double Dipper yet it doesn’t get said of him.

            It does concern me that with so many NZers willing to believe or ignore National’s lying that the same thing may happen with MMP.

        • Draco T Bastard

          From 1987 to 1996 FPP elections returned governments that had lied to the electorate then proceeded to behave like elected dictatorships ramming through hard right economic reforms.

          I seem to recall the present government doing exactly that – for three terms.

          The purpose of MMP was to ensure that never again Rogernomic/Ruthenania could be inflicted on the country against it’s will and so far it has done that.

          No it hasn’t.

          The government signed the TPPA against our wishes.
          They sold our power SOEs against our wishes.
          They put in place 90 day fire at will legislation against our wishes.

          The list goes on.

          For example, we would never have scrapped Kirk’s super scheme in 1975 if we had have MMP.

          It’s entirely possible that a government would have. It’s just less likely that they would have been returned.

          Labour, Social Credit and the Values party (5.19%!) could have formed a government.

          That would have been good if they’d got round to implementing a sovereign monetary system.

        • Psycho Milt

          MMP was introduced because of the abject failure of FPP.

          The FPP-nostalgics never mention that bit. Although, Damien Grant does kind of cover it off with this line:

          “In the New Zealand mind sits, like a gnarled hobbit, the idea of fairness.”

          Fairness! What a crock! Let’s all sneer together at this risible concept that your political system should involve fairness! What a bunch of saps! Aah, the admirable senses of empathy and self-awareness displayed by the libertarian, how sad there are so few of them in our country… /sarc

          • tracey

            She used lots of words but said the same stuff as all those who refuse to analyse

            Greens election promise to not go into coalition with National

            Greens complete lack of trust of National in part due to Nationals election promises being what we call in Contract Law an “invitation to treat”. Not binding and only meant to lure you into the shop for the real bargaining to begin.

    • Foreign waka 1.2

      Scott, its called sore loser, foot stumping comes with that. Of cause you cannot see this when you just have the written article in front of you. But what it does show is, that the manipulators in the media are coming to the surface and now you can identify those who are all year round trying to “massage” public opinion towards a certain goal. It also pinpoints the publications bias, its educational. Stupid is what stupid does.

  2. Andre 2

    An interesting nerdy discussion on whether and when radical proposals attract the centre closer by making less extreme proposals look moderate and when they repel the centre away by tarnishing less extreme proposals so they also look nuts.


    • JanM 2.1

      It’s like the adult version of introducing new foods to children really, isn’t it

    • Carolyn_nth 2.2

      Very good piece. And sums up John key nicely – can sound like he cares about the least powerful, suffering people…. but actually, is more interested in getting an interviewer talking about a fun run.

      Then Slack describes his encounters with/knowledge of grandparents struggling to care their grandchildren, and with very little resources or power.

      But it’s entirely possible to look away from these broken lives. It’s entirely possible to ignore what poverty means here today. It’s entirely possible to denigrate feckless parents and suggest that they make “better life choices”.

      But is that fair, or compassionate, or humane?

      How much political will is there to make this right, to tackle poverty, to provide support for the foster parents and grandparents to do their selfless work?

  3. Andre 3

    Sunday morning larfs. Bill Maher turns TV detective with what we know about Donny Littlehands.


  4. RedBaronCV 4

    Whatever happened to the discussion just prior to the election about the National party funding sources and the source and number of jobs ex Nat politicians are receiving from overseas interests. Are the Nats too close to overseas governing parties?
    It seems to have been shut down real quick in favour of the endless harassment of the Greens going with Nats. If the Nats were serious then they surely would have called the Greens by now but they apparently haven’t.

  5. Trey 5

    And so it continues. HDPAs turn this time to spin why Labour should walk away from NZ First. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11928211

    • Carolyn_nth 5.1

      Stacey Kirk on Sunday Star Times on why leaders of the GP should ignore their base and deal with Nats.

      Plus, i see via twitter Jim Bolger is still running the Nat-GP coalition line on qu@a.

      The Nats are acting like a pack of authoritarian bullies. Doesn’t matter how often GP supporters and members say “No” – they keep with the saturated media and social media spin of why the GP-Nat idea is in the Greens best interests – won’t take NO for an answer.

      This IS bullying behaviour!

      • JanM 5.1.1

        Yes it is, but who’s going to call them out on it? The MSM are essentially doing the same to Winston. Just as well for him he’s made of stern stuff.

      • tracey 5.1.2

        It is ignorant and patronising. There is not only one view of all this but many in the media are buying that there is only one view and it is the one that sees National being permitted to continue.

      • adam 5.1.3

        I’d suggest that the not taking no, is not bullying behaviour, but much much worse behaviour.

  6. Reality 6

    Seems all media are frantically interviewing their computers in their frustration at no electoral outcome and in desperation for something to write about.

    Patience is a concept they are unfamiliar with.

    And all these know-alls being wheeled out to give their opinions – had hoped to see the last of the hair-do and others of his ilk.

  7. Sanctuary 7

    My God, Jim Mora is mind numbingly boring on Sunday Morning. Such a conservative mealy mouthed reactionary with an obvious agenda, busily taking Sunday Morning back to the 1970s. I turned off. Couldn’t cope with his trite religious blather.

    Radio Sport it is.

    • Grey Area 7.1

      I thought it was the 1870s. I turned him off as well.

    • Bearded Git 7.2

      Yep, can’t wait for Wallace to get back….why the f$%^ is NZ on Air not funding Back Benches any more, so that it has had to be cancelled*….PM Jacinda should have a look at this….it is one of the only programmes I watch on TV and a programme that humanises politics; plenty of humour too.

      *of course Prime TV could have funded Back Benches itself-it can’t be very expensive to produce. Says everything about Prime and Sky.

    • Gabby 7.3

      On the upside, he e nun ci ates clear ly ( yes, Wallashe Chmpmmm, I’m looking at you).

    • Anne 7.4

      I turned off Q & A this morning because I could no longer stand all the tripe about the Nats and Greens going into coalition. With the exception of John Tamihere, who valiantly tried to keep the debate on a rational footing, it was appalling to hear the other two guests (Wayne Mapp, Josie Pagani) belting out the same lines prepared by Steven Joyce and co.

      Here’s a summary of the timelines and facts:

      In 1993 a referendum was held which saw MMP introduced. In 1994, merely months after that referedndum, a new political party was established called ACT. It was a direct response to the advent of MMP and was financed into being by some of our wealthiest business tycoons (Alan Gibbs, Craig Heatley, Douglas Myers to name just three of them). It was set up in cahoots with National to provide them with a coalition party.

      The Labour Party already had a coalition party (albeit set up for different reasons) the Alliance Party which was born prior to the referendum in 1991.

      So the scene was set for MMP well in advance of the first MMP election in 1996.

      The Left block – Labour and the Alliance Party.
      The Right block – National and ACT.
      Sitting in the centre was NZ First.

      Nothing has changed since except the fortunes /misfortunes of the coalition parties:
      1) the Alliance party imploded and what was left of it morphed into the Green Party. It has since succeeded in maintaining a significant role and potential coalition partner for Labour in parliament.

      2) the ACT Party started out as a significant presence but over time lost its support and ended up with one seat courtesy of the Nats. National has been able to cobble together coalition governments by including the tiddler parties of ACT, UF and the Maori Party.

      It does not alter the Left/Right blocks arrangement we inherited under MMP.

      Now we are seeing a mischievous attempt by National and the highly suspect MSM re-writing history (see John Roughan’s latest appallingly inaccurate opinion piece in the Herald) and trying to snaffle Labour’s natural support party away from them using the usual dirty political tactics.

      It is yet another of the myriad of examples that already exist where National is so devoid of principles and values, they will do anything to retain power and wealth for themselves and to hell with the rest of us. The Greens will be the ultimate loser if they succumb.

      I hope the Greens and NZ First don’t fall for it!

      Edit: if someone has the time to play around with this and turn it into a post I don’t mind. It is such an important message to get out there.

      • tracey 7.4.1

        Ah. Wayne was using us for practice.

        Great analysis Anne, thanks.

      • Carolyn_nth 7.4.2

        Danyl McLauchlan has an interesting piece on Spinoff, reporting on his experiecne as part of the Green Party team during the election.

        There are some interesting insights but, he claims the MSM are not really that biased.

        ‘Media bias’ is everyone’s excuse for everything that happens in politics that they don’t like. Occasionally it’s true, but mostly it’s a more palatable alternative to admitting that your values aren’t popular or that the politicians you admire aren’t very good at their jobs. Of course there’s always bias, but as an institution the media are biased towards whoever produces good content for them, and this election that was Jacinda.

        That is partially true, in that the MSM do tend to foreground drama, clickbait, etc.

        But, it doesn’t explain how so many MSM journos are running the Nat line on Nat-GP coalition.

        I suspect that people in the centre ground of politics, like McLauchlan, are blind to the narrow range of views that are allowed to dominate around the (shifting) centre of politics in the MSM.

        The MSM probably connects with their view of the world. I also think MSM journos tend to respond positively to politicians who speak and behave somewhat like themselves and their social set.

        Ardern does that somewhat, so they feel connected to her – but then she also sometimes steps outside that cultural frame, and then Ardern gets hammered.

      • Bearded Git 7.4.3

        Did Pagani support Greens talking to Nats?

        • Anne

          Yes she did by way of agreeing with everything Wayne Mapp said. It stupifies me they keep her on these Q&A panels when her Labour/Left credentials have been so torn asunder.

  8. ianmac 8

    My wife says for example, that an anaestitist is paid a huge amount more in a Private hospital than in a Public Hospital?
    Does she win this time?

    • Pete 8.1

      And if she does win, where is the extra money coming from? And if she does win does that mean the company that owns the hospital isn’t making much profit?

    • tracey 8.2

      I would be very surprised if they were not.

  9. tracey 9

    So much for the constant refrain that the younger suffer from a need for instant gratification. Their parents and grandparents are barely stopping short of tantrums to satisfy their instant gratification.

    There are plenty of other stories out there. Start writing them?

    In the meantime this is an interesting piece which could be applied to Nats from the GFC and Earthquakes and how they “used” those to implement their own Shock Doctrine.

    When you read this kind of stuff you realise how shallow our media writing is.


  10. Murray Simmonds 10

    Liars, damned liars and politicians.

    Anyone who wonders why Labour didn’t do as well as expected in the election should read this brilliant exposition of just how it is that political rhetoric meshes with economics:


    (For “Clinton” read “National”, for “Sanders” read “Labour”.)

    Please read the article, then ask yourself “What does the phrase ‘show me the money’ really mean?

  11. Molly 11

    Clayton’s privatisation of public services, employed in various forms by neo-liberal governments the world over. (or how to privatise essential services without telling anybody).

    NHS privatisation exposed in the UK.

    From The Independent article:

    Professor Allyson Pollock, director of Newcastle University’s Institute of Health and Society, said the change in the law during the Coalition years has paved the way for the part-privatisation of the health service.

    She said: “It’s not a surprise to see foundation trusts with niche specialities like cancer or cardiac [care] are turning to private patients.

    “The problem is formerly these hospitals were almost 100 per cent public. Up to 49 per cent of the capacity – doctors, nurses and beds – can be diverted to private patients. In London … some of these patients will be very wealthy, medical tourists.

    “The NHS is being squeezed and inevitably there will be a diversion of funds [from ordinary NHS patients to private ones]. We are losing our NHS. We will lose our NHS unless the Government stops commercial contracting and stops foundation trusts from bringing in private patients.”

  12. ianmac 12

    Blinded by the Media National argument that Winston is a rogue and how dare he hold the country to ransom, it dimly occurred to me it is not Winston’s fault. He is just dealing with the MMP hand that he was dealt. How else would it have worked out? Huh?

    • Sabine 12.1

      it is the ‘its not me’ syndrome, it must be the fault of the other. so blame winston, the system, the greens, humpty dumpty but lets not blame the ones that have been running the country for 9 years.
      A bit like for the first 5 years of N everything was the fault of Helen Clark, then it was look how awesome John Key is and don’t you want your pony tail pulled too?, and now its the fault of Winston. IT must be the others fault cause if it ain’t it must be National that has done the fucking up.

  13. bwaghorn 13

    if nzf offer the nats c and s and stay on the cross benches , would it not allow the greens and or labour to work with the nats on policy they want that nzf is against.

    • Barfly 13.1

      I truly doubt that there is much intersection between Nats and Labour/Greens in policy.

      Private members bills for areas with significant policy overlap between Labour , Greens and NZ First would be hell to deal with for both the Nats and NZ First in such a situation

  14. The Chairman 14

    Good to see voters gave Morgan the message.

    It was Gareth’s lumping together of all property owners and pensioners as an elite group screwing over the young that was largely his downfall.

    Coupled with wanting to reduce the rate of our current UBI (Super) and his willingness to add to the cost of home ownership while taxing home owning low income earners out of their homes.

    • Heather Grimwood 14.1

      to ‘The Chairman’ at 14 : yes, I agree these aspects of TOP policy were scary, and not to my mind emphasised/criticised in press . We pensioners are certainly NOT all well-heeled. I have always felt he thinks from wealthy viewpoint albeit given to philanthropy.

      • The Chairman 14.1.1

        “I have always felt he thinks from wealthy viewpoint…”

        Indeed. What he was pushing indicated he was out of touch with the reality on the ground. 

  15. Ed 15

    The Greens won’t speak to us.

    How many articles have there been in the past few days from right wing commentators whinging about this?


  16. joe90 16

    Making friends and influencing people….

    A vigorous campaign by WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange to break Catalonia off from Spain, further splintering Europe, is landing him in hot water with the government of Ecuador that has provided him with diplomatic refuge in its embassy in London.

    Assange and Ecuadorean President Lenin Moreno have traded barbs this week over whether his behavior comports with that of someone granted political asylum.

    Assange challenged Moreno Thursday to try to silence him.

    “If President Moreno wants to gag my reporting of human rights abuses in Spain he should say so explicitly—together with the legal basis,” Assange tweeted.

    If President Moreno wants to gag my reporting of human rights abuses in Spain he should say so explicitly–together with the legal basis.
    — Julian Assange (@JulianAssange) September 28, 2017

    Friction between Assange and his Ecuadorean hosts has grown since May, when Moreno took office and surprised his nation’s voters by departing sharply from the path set by his predecessor, the fiery populist Rafael Correa. Moreno was considered Correa’s protégé.

    Moreno has told two international television networks in the past week that Assange should watch his tongue and not harm Ecuador’s relations with its allies.


  17. eco maori 17

    national are despite and making fools of them selves trying to hold a hand out to the Greens and we no that that would be like crossing the positive and negative 12 volt terminals together a lot of sparks and boom . One of the main goals of the coalition should be to ensure there long term rule in a fair and just way as the changes needed to fix our country will not happen over nite compulsory voting would be one and another would be to keep the media honest and un biased ban social media video ads and poll’s 2 month’s before a election
    To Gareth Morgan you mite not have achieved directly what you wanted to achieve but you have help the debate on topics everyone else was to scared to talk about and TOPs policy will have some influence on our new laws that will make our country more equal for everyone
    It was awesome to see the General Silveria setting a excellent example on how racism should not be tolerated anywhere in OUR WORLD .
    BIG UPPS to see 2 of my favorite people on the news they make excellent role models for all people

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