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Open Mike 02/08/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 2nd, 2018 - 144 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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144 comments on “Open Mike 02/08/2018 ”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    If you can get past his hokey spiritualism of the cleaned up junkie, Russell Brand has some really, really good conversations on his podcasts. I particularly recommend his discussion with Adam Curtis.


  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Forest & Bird is now closing its kauri reserves. Alison Mau did a good in-depth report on the current situation a month ago: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105302459/kauri-dieback-the-battle-against-the-biological-bulldozer?rm=m

    I remember around seven years ago seeing a tv news report on the issue that mentioned kauris were dying in the Waitakeres in remote areas miles from any walking track. Made me suspicious of claims that humans are responsible for the spread. “The bug is soil-borne, and left alone it spreads at a glacial pace. But picked up on on the boots of a tramper, or the hooves of a wild pig, it can be carried kilometres from the original source of an outbreak.” Are there still wild pigs in the Waitakeres? If so, why have they not been eliminated? Obviously they’d be more effective transporters of the pathogen than humans.

    “New Zealand’s competitive research model – where individual teams of scientists beaver away inside separate Crown Research Institutes – is one of the major roadblocks we face in saving kauri. While CRI business managers protect their intellectual property, scientists are being gagged. She claims MPI asked her to review all kauri dieback science three years ago and then told her not to tell anyone the results. Without collaboration, says Black, how can scientists know what has already been proved? “We could all be working on the same things, and how would we know?””

    The new government must command the public service to start collaborating on this problem immediately. Nothing wrong with using enterprise teams competitively to produce a selection of clever strategies. Everything wrong with failing to share institutional learning therefrom.

    • Ed 2.1

      NZPI sound like they deliberately obstruct.

    • Ad 2.2

      It’s humans, but also pigs. There’s a few left in the Waitakeres.

      Both central and local government were too slow to act.

      Forest and Bird Waitakere branch are discussing it at their next branch meeting.

      Pretty devastating for all of us in the forest who have been working to keep the forest.

      • Dennis Frank 2.2.1

        So they’ve let those pigs continue spreading the disease for an entire decade. Amazing, the incompetence that everyone assumes will continue forever here. A competent manager would have mapped all the affected trees to show how many cannot have been infected by trail-walkers. If as many were off-trail as alongside, that would prove that pigs are the problem, not humans. A relief map would show any downhill drift of contaminated soil infecting trees down-slope from a trail.

        • Ad

          They are all mapped.
          Great majority of infections alongside human tracks.

          There’s a few areas with downhill infection but they are places like Otitori Bay Road which is also subdivided with humans, dogs, cars, landscaping etc.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    First primary teachers strike for 24 years. You can see why they didn’t strike during Helen Clark’s government: Michael Cullen kept declaring a budget surplus. When government has plenty of money to spread around, that’s the wrong time to ask for some. Teacher logic.

    You can see why they didn’t strike during John Key’s government: alpha male. Must demonstrate subservience.

    So they finally waited until a young woman with a new baby is running the country. Attack now! Easy target…

    • Cinny 3.1

      Teachers are going on strike because things are really bad for them and has been for YEARS. Finally they have had enough, who can blame them after the last nine years.

      It has NOTHING to do with who is the PM.

      Calling the PM who quit (john key) an alpha male… I can’t stop laughing, so far from the truth.

      2013 – Under john key…
      Primary school teachers in Christchurch will strike on 19 February, a day after Education Minister Hekia Parata is scheduled to make an announcement on the future of schools in the region.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

        Did they actually do so though? The media has been reporting that it’s the first time for 24 years. Journos wrong??

        • Cinny

          Dennis, these were teachers down in ChCh over school closures. The strike didn’t go ahead. Instead there was a public rally

          In 2010 under national, secondary teachers went on strike..

          Prime Minister John Key said yesterday there was no new money to offer teachers a bigger pay increase unless they wanted to burden their students with a future of paying off national debt.

          Mr Key said the Government was already borrowing $256 million a week.

          Wait… what? keys government was borrowing how much a week?


          • Gosman

            Yes in 2010 the NZ Government had a budget deficit. John Key was entirely correct and it looked like it worked as the Teachers did not go on strike and did not get a big pay rise.

    • solkta 3.2

      What century do you live in?

      • Cinny 3.2.1

        Solkta, have you heard the latest narrative……

        Nat’s are spinning that if Labour hadn’t of introduced a years free tertiary they would have the money for it.
        What a crock, the money used for the first year free tertiary was ear marked by national for tax cuts.

        But even more concerning is the national voters coming out to support teachers, after voting for anti education national for the last nine years. It really does my head in.

        • solkta

          My reply was to Dennis, he still lives in a gendered structure that most on this site left long ago or are too young to really know.

          Agree though that the Nat bullshit is off the meter. The medical cannabis thing tops the lot.

          • Cinny

            Thanks for the heads up Solkta, much appreciated. Have only joined in commenting on TS in recent years.

            Nat bullshit is off the meter, the cannabis thing made me laugh hard. But not as hard as the school principal was laughing yesterday; when I told him that the nat’s had collected no info on class sizes during their tenure but were all of a sudden pushing for smaller class sizes.

            • solkta

              Oh yes the class size thing. That might be the winner. Last time the Nats spoke about class sizes they said it didn’t matter and they wanted to increase them.

              • solkta

                Teacher unions and education groups have welcomed Education Minister Hekia Parata’s backdown on class size increases, but it has come with a sting: a $174 million hole in the education budget which will now have to be filled from cuts elsewhere.

                Ms Parata yesterday announced she was reversing plans in the Budget to increase class size ratios after two weeks of a strong public outcry from parents, teachers, principals and boards of trustees.

                Open Mike 02/08/2018

        • Gosman

          What National is stating is if you cancel the tax cut then perhaps the better use of the money is not on Tertiary students but on Teacher’s.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury

          So when you criticised national for prioritising tax cuts over public spending, you didn’t mean quality public spending. just any old public spending.

          Labour made a choice, spend the money earmarked for tax cuts on primary education teachers, whose ability to teach will define a childs learning pattern for life. Or they can spend the money on 18 – 19 year olds who desire to go on to earning a graduate then professional salary but won’t invest in it themselves.

          Talk about pulling the ladder up behind you

          • Cinny

            Just for the record, one year of free tertiary education is open to all adults who haven’t undergone tertiary education before; not just 18-19yr olds as implied by ‘3cent biscuit’ above.

            A friend of mine, 44yrs old has just started training to be a teacher, only because the first year free.

            Re the current pay for primary school teachers….

            Did you know that the teachers have been offered twice the pay rise that the prior national government offered?

            So it’s a huge WTF moment that national are only now making a big song and dance about supporting education and teachers. All good, most can see through it, cause they got x-ray spec’s, for all those special effects. 🙂

            “Mr Hipkins said over the last eight years, teachers pay had increased by an average of 1.2 percent a year and the current offer from the ministry was double that.

            “So government is recognising the fact that teacher pay increases haven’t been particularly generous in recent years,” Mr Hipkins said.”

            Personally, I highly value education for ALL and I especially value our educators. If any government can improve the situation for teachers, it’s this one.

            • Chuck

              “A friend of mine, 44yrs old has just started training to be a teacher, only because the first year free.”

              So are you implying that after the first year your friend will then exit his course? you know the ONLY reason he decided to upskill was that it was “free”.

              • Cinny

                No, not at all, but it seems like you are.

                This has given her the opportunity for a good start and I’m so happy for her to have such an opportunity, and such an opportunity will not be wasted on her.

                Cup half full around here.

          • Patricia Bremner

            Tuppence. That is rubbish. The first 3 years of a child’s life effects their learning patterns. Parents and family as first teachers.

            When secondary education became free and mandatory girls became educated to higher levels regardless of parental or societal ideas. So did their families because of this.

            We are again accepting that 3 years tertiary education is desirable, and that the poorer students (parents) should not have a handbrake hefty loan when wealthy students (parents) have friends who hire their children, or a business which hires them, to avoid loans.

            The outcome? Poorer families do not build home deposits and banks won’t loan to them as they have a mortgage sized student debt already. Also poorer students who missed out may now take advantage to gain further education, as adults can apply.
            The wealthy continue with family backing to grow their deposits and without a student loan they qualify for a bank loan. They become the property class.
            In three years from now it will be a more even field.
            More students from poorer families will be able to gain degrees or trades.
            The wealthy students will have to work harder in a larger pool of students.

            This is great policy for the ordinary family, far from pulling the ladder up, they have provided one.

        • Bewildered

          Get use to it, your lot are in power now so need to solve all those easy problem they raged on about in opposition while also keeping the economy going to pay for it No point in feeling sorry for yourself and blaming the opposition for been ..,. The Opposition

    • marty mars 3.3

      Your conclusions are harsh and unfair – no one wants to strike and certainly not teachers – for too long the gnats have been given a free pass – they let things run down – don’t blame the workers for wanting to eat and live on an adequate income.

      • Dennis Frank 3.3.1

        No, I’m not blaming them for that – just for waiting so long, and unfairly making governance hard for Jacinda! Like I suggested, the obvious time to do it was at least a decade ago.

        • solkta

          So teachers should not try and get the pay and conditions that they deserve because you have prejudice against women?

    • Anne 3.4

      Are you serious DF @ 3, or are you just being a little bit naughty and provocative? I hope it is the latter.

      The teachers have chosen to strike for exactly the same reason as the nurses. They have reached the end of their tether. After nearly ten years being pushed and shoved around by National… having unnecessary extra ‘measuring devices’ forced on them which only made their job of actually teaching children ten times harder… being treated like second class citizens by an ignorant National-led government and subsequently now having extreme difficulty attracting the right young people to teaching… they have understandably had more than enough.

      However, I hope they recognise the fact they can’t get everything immediately because there is not a bottomless pit of gold in the Govt’s coffers.

      • The Chairman 3.4.1

        You’re right, Anne. There is no bottomless pit of gold in the Govt’s coffers. But Labour aren’t even spending up to their own self-imposed spending cap. Giving them around $6 billion more to play with.

        • marty mars

          I just realised I read your comments in the voice of hal from 2001 a Space Odyssey – ha, weird.

        • The Chairman, Mico plasma bovis, kauri dieback, trade wars, poor public infrastructure, pay levels, hospital funding, meeting climate change costs, education costs, Winz.
          I could go on…. glad they have money in case… I’m sure others could add things to the list. (I have not prioritised any one thing, as they are all huge)

          • The Chairman

            The Government’s self-imposed spending cap is extremely conservative as it stands, thus allows plenty of headroom for any future unknowns.

            And while there are many issues to currently overcome, the additional $6 billion will go a long way in further addressing them.

            If we let matters fester, they will snowball. Thus, will become more difficult and far more expensive to correct going forward.

            Businesses are concerned large public sector wage increases will spillover and drive up private sector wage demand. Hence, there’s speculation appeasing this concern is what is underpinning the Government’s hardball stance when it comes to public sector wage demands.

            Alternatively, when it comes to the threat of Mycoplasma bovis (which poses no human health risk, thus as far as problems go it’s not that major) Robertson seems to have thrown out his fiscal concerns and has committed to throwing as much money as it takes at the problem.

            Just as Winston seemed to have had no other fiscal concerns when announcing a billion dollars for foreign aid, yet when it came to patient safety and nurses wanting more, Winston was out there pointing at the need to balance the books.

            • John up North

              Chairfella…….. FIFY

              National let matters fester, they have snowballed. Thus, it has become more difficult and far more expensive to correct going forward.

              Lets be real and sheet home the current situation to the actual cause.

              I still think MSM and to a degree the PR team for the current Govt are not doing their job at educating the general public regarding the sentence above. I also believe this is due mostly to MSM being bought/paid for by interests that are biased to Nats and their own personal gains.

              • The Chairman

                No one is denying National’s governance got us into the state we are now in, but it’s now up to Labour to get on top of things before they snowball and become more difficult and more expensive to correct.

                As reported, they have around another $6 billion to do so.

                You seem to be standing up for Labour who in this instance seem to be putting business concerns (or other concerns such as Mycoplasma bovis) ahead of public sector workers and the overall public/national interests (i.e. investment in health and education).

    • The Primary sector have ridden on the coat tails of secondary teachers for years since gaining a parity agreement. This is the first time they have been first cab of the ramp with negotiations, secondary have always taken the industrial action, interestingly the reverse does not apply.

      • SaveNZ 3.5.1

        The primary teachers are up in arms as that is where the biggest demand is.

        There is massive shortages of primary school teachers. They do an excellent job and should be paid well and supported!

        When the powers set immigration policy with the rise in private and public foreign student drives under National, it was to gain a lot of 20 – 30 yo often with lower educational level or skills (chefs, low level IT support, health care worker were amongst the top 5 most “skilled’ groups) that created additional points for residency and extra points if they were younger, so based on that, 1 out of 5 foreign students studying in NZ were waived through into permanent residency even if the job was flipping burgers or working in a petrol station. As well as that if you “invested” in a business or house you also were waived through into permanent residency and did not have to have an English language test.

        As usual nobody worked out this is prime child bearing age, so of course there should have been a big prediction of the additional children being born outside of the normal demographics by government so they should have started saving for more teachers and midwives and GP’s then, and not allowing it to become a crisis! Instead they just focused on giving it to construction and building more schools and classrooms and remedial work from all the leaky schools they had, rather than increasing the teachers and allowing enough and adequate funding for the additional children.

        At the same time, the government got rid of many specialist schools for children with special needs and about 1 in 10 children have some sort of learning disability but apparently under the neoliberal rules it is practically impossible to get more help in the classroom to deal with special needs children.

        Someone was saying they had an autistic child but with the ‘check tick system” failed on one obscure point so the school did not get funding for a teachers aid. Then the school asked the parents to pay for one instead. Clearly discrimination against the special needs children families has become rife on top of everything else!

        Apparently a colossal amount of children have their teacher changed during the year now, that is much higher than the more publicised issue of people in insecure housing’s children having to change schools.

        So modern NZ primary school kids are grappling with a lot of issues that are contributing to additional stress on them from the teachers shortages and turnover which is why the average parent is probably going to support the strike, as everyone knows that we need these qualified teachers badly!

        This is from the Natz, but another issue for the Labour government to solve.

  4. Blazer 4

    Winston’s ‘kick fatty out’ has now trumped Paula’s ‘zip it sweetie’ as the most profound comment in Parliament for a decade.

    • Puckish Rogue 4.1

      Yeah its interesting isn’t it, WP says that GB and nary a word of outrage from the msm but imagine if JK had said that to a Green or Labour MP, the outrage would have been deafening (and rightly so)

      • Gosman 4.1.1

        The most prominent reporting on the incident is from the UK Guardian paper.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Its almost as if there are different standards applied…

          • bwaghorn

            It was a shit thing of winston to say .i had been feeling positive about him even though I didn’t want msg in parliament. But the he proved what a silly old fool he can be.

    • ianmac 4.2

      Missed that Blazer. What happened?

        • ianmac

          Thanks Blazer and Anne. The behaviour of the Opposition was appalling. Both in the attacks and the response to the resignation. They scored a (doubtful) point but wanted the pound of flesh as well. Rats!

      • Anne 4.2.2

        Here’s the full video ianmac:


        You can see why Winston Peters was sufficiently riled by the way they were treating Tracey Martin that he made the “fatty” statement. One thing I’ve noticed about Winston. He expects total loyalty from his parliamentary members and when he gets it, he returns it with equal measure.

        • Puckish Rogue

          “Fatty” Yeah that’ll show Brownlie

          • Anne

            Well you know PR, when people are angry about someone’s behaviour they often respond in like manner which may not be the right thing to do, but you can understand them doing it.

            I can recall you getting riled up on this site and [maybe] ending up with a wee ban.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Thats true but then I’m also not the acting PM on a couple of hundred thou a year and I’m also not expected to maintain higher standards than normal

          • OnceWasTim

            FFS @ PR! Give it up or I might have to relate a story about a pencil plane (I think they were called Metroliners) whereby the pilot had to ask most other passengers to switch sides before takeoff.
            BTW – same held true for dear old Parakura.
            Then there’s Gerry’s companion to deal with.
            Give it up man!

        • veutoviper

          +1111 Anne.

          And considering the number of times Bridges * is pulled up and warned by the Speaker for interjections (some of which are apparently extremely rude/derogatory from what I have heard from people actually there) it is a case of pot and kettle. One day, Mallard is going to send Bridges packing … LOL.

          * also Bennett.

        • Ed1

          I suspect Winston may have been riled by consistent interjections from the Opposition.
          Tracey Martin appears t have accepted the spin from Bishop that this enquiry was about the appointee – it was about the process used for the appointment – a process developed and later amended by National, as she outlined in her reply. Clearly the reason for the enquiry is because it may not have discovered all relevant information, but that has nothing to do with the person appointed. Bishop was called on this on Radio NZ this morning but continued to claim it was an enquiry into the person appointed rather than government processes. Yes National have scurrilously attacked an individual for political purposes, but they also offended against parliament with their interjections. From what was heard in the clip at least one opposition MP should have been called on to apologise.

        • Chuck

          “One thing I’ve noticed about Winston. He expects total loyalty from his parliamentary members”

          Spot on there Anne. Hence his waka jumping bill. It gives him the ability for total control of any dissenting MP’s in his party.

    • Fireblade 4.3

      Well Gerry did accuse Winston of being drunk the day before.

      Fact checks:
      Was Winston drunk? Possibly.

      Is Gerry a fatty? Yes.

      Is Jacinda a sweetie? Yes.

      • Robert Guyton 4.3.1

        Fireblade – I like your style.
        Brownlee smarmed his way through his “Winston” smear then collected one for himself – he more than deserved it.

  5. Jenny 5

    Mike Treen arrives back in NZ today.

    Be there to greet him at Auckland Airport International arrivals 12.00 pm.

    Click on the Link for full detalls;


  6. esoteric pineapples 6

    Former Immigration and Customs Enforcement chief says he thinks there is a chance some parents may not see kids again after being separated at the border. Instead the children of around 460 parents will simply be put in foster care or adopted out in the US.


    • SaveNZ 6.1

      Absolutely disgusting that they did nothing to track the children they took. To be honest hard to believe a country like the US could do that and be so negligent with children. There are many scandals however of profit from state children or incarceration of minors by officials owning parts of the facilities that house them and profit from it.

      The children could be trafficked, abused and of course never be reunited with their parents. This has threads of Aboriginal and Argentinian babies being stolen.

  7. esoteric pineapples 7

    I see Trump caved in and Putin’s visit has been postponed. A man with no balls whatsoever. His only asset now is his band of racist, mysogenistic, fanatically religious followers. Other than that, he’s just a smelly turd sitting in the White House, kept in power and controlled by the Republicans and corporate money. People slag of Hillary Clinton but at least she had a lot more balls than Trump. The good news about Trump having no balls is that even a successful dictator needs balls.

    • Ad 7.1

      Decreases the Dem surge damage at the mid-terms. A little.
      Putin will still come, just when the political air is clearer.

      Trump should go full Man In The High Castle and do a military parade for him.

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1

        Goose-stepping? A retro move to demonstrate stylistic solidarity with North Korea? No, I know – it’ll be big guns. Trad male psychology (mine is bigger than yours)..

  8. joe90 8

    Best game in town; stir the anti-immigration pot and then fill your pockets.

    But “victory” isn’t the word most Valley Park residents would use to describe the results of Kobach’s work. With his help, the town of 7,000 passed an ordinance in 2006 that punished employers for hiring illegal immigrants and landlords for renting to them. But after two years of litigation and nearly $300,000 in expenses, the ordinance was largely gutted. Now, it is illegal only to “knowingly” hire illegal immigrants there — something that was already illegal under federal law. The town’s attorney can’t recall a single case brought under the ordinance.

    “Ambulance chasing” is how Grant Young, a former mayor of Valley Park, describes Kobach’s role. Young characterized Kobach’s attitude as, “Let’s find a town that’s got some issues or pretends to have some issues, let’s drum up an immigration problem and maybe I can advance my political position, my political thinking and maybe make some money at the same time.”

    Kobach used his work in Valley Park to attract other clients, with sometimes disastrous effects on the municipalities. The towns — some with budgets in the single-digit-millions — ran up hefty legal costs after hiring him to defend similar ordinances. Farmers Branch, Texas, wound up owing $7 million in legal bills. Hazleton, Penn., took on debt to pay $1.4 million and eventually had to file for a state bailout. In Fremont, Neb., the city raised property taxes to pay for Kobach’s services. None of the towns are currently enforcing the laws he helped craft.


  9. miravox 9

    My partner reckons I’m like a stuck record about the way people are categorised and labeled, and stereotyped based on those categories and labels.

    I like this addition to the debate about the label “white working class”

    • Molly 9.1

      I think there is further discussion along those lines than what is presented, as the phrase does more than encompass working conditions.

      Considering the fraught concerns about the use of the term ‘white’ – for the purposes of this discussion, it is useful to consider it in terms of those who for no other reasons other than how they appear, are treated in such way as to provide beneficial advantages that are denied to others that present differently.

      In regards to “white working class” – I would think it would relate to the aspects of life additional to both class and employment. They may earn the same pay under the same conditions, but they may also be more likely to get their choice of rental, be treated differently in various industries, shops and institutional services. Even in recreational activities they are more likely to experience a positive welcome and inclusion. They and their children are less likely to be targeted by the police, be followed around a shop, or be questioned about what they are up to.

      It doesn’t harm anyone to consider that there are differences even within a class system. In fact, it is more likely that acknowledging those differences allows for better solutions and processes to be designed and implemented.

      • mi 9.1.1

        Yes, categories are great for identifying power, inequalities & need in specific groups and your examples are good ones.

        These categories or descriptors provide the probabilities of association can also be a negative influence on societal beliefs and interactions, especially where associating motivations, attitudes and behaviours with a particular group, with an absoluteness that doesn’t exist. These are used for negative stereotyping of the individual as well as the group. E.g. from police profiling and likelihood of arrest, to why people who are working class and white can’t climb the social ladder, even as to why people don’t access education and health services.
        I feel that when category probability is interpreted by the general public as certainty, they are used to stigmatise with an air of authority (“the stats say…”, “the profiling shows that…” (See: opinion pieces, BoL comments ) and have become an perverse excuse for people with power and privilege to do nothing to invest in ensuring society is a little more equitable.

        But that’s not to say I don’t agree with you that we need to identify where inequalities lie. Absolutely, we must, and the author is wrong to say “The only logical reason to differentiate within a class by skin colour is if you want to talk about the element that doesn’t like mixing with other ethnicities” – clearly there are other reasons, as you state.

        It’s the context-free certainty that attitudes and behaviours belong to social groups (which the article focused on) that bothers me. Especially when I hear people in positions of power use this as an excuse to explain away, and do nothing about fixing, a problem that has been identified via those very same categories (example from a serve administrator: “Oh, that person doesn’t turn up because they are [choose group] and the research shows they can’t be bothered so we struck them off the list”).

        • miravox

          I’m not sure why this posted twice. It disappeared completely the first time I posted it. If a moderator would like to delete this version, please feel free to do so. Ta.

      • miravox 9.1.2

        Yes, categories are great for identifying power, inequalities & need in specific groups and your examples are good ones.

        These categories or descriptors provide the probabilities of association can also be a negative influence on societal beliefs and interactions, especially where associating motivations, attitudes and behaviours with a particular group, with an absoluteness that doesn’t exist. These are used for negative stereotyping of the individual as well as the group. E.g. from police profiling and likelihood of arrest, to why people who are working class and white can’t climb the social ladder, even as to why people don’t access education and health services.
        I feel that category probabilities are thrown around as certainties, and are used to stigmatise with an air of authority (“the stats say…”, “the profiling shows that…” (See: opinion pieces, BoL comments ) and have become an perverse excuse for people with power and privilege to do nothing to invest in ensuring society is a little more equitable.

        But that’s not to say I don’t agree with you that we need to identify where inequalities lie. Absolutely, we must, and the author is wrong to say “The only logical reason to differentiate within a class by skin colour is if you want to talk about the element that doesn’t like mixing with other ethnicities” – clearly there are other reasons, as you state.

        It’s the context-free certainty about attitudes and behaviours in social groups ascribed to people in descriptive categories (which the article focused on) that bothers me. Especially when I hear people in positions of power use this as an excuse to explain away, and do nothing about fixing, a problem that has been identified via those very same categories (example from a service administrator: “that person doesn’t turn up because they are [choose group] and the research shows they have an attitude problem so we struck them off the list”).

        • Molly

          “It’s the context-free certainty about attitudes and behaviours in social groups ascribed to people in descriptive categories (which the article focused on) that bothers me. Especially when I hear people in positions of power use this as an excuse to explain away, and do nothing about fixing, a problem that has been identified via those very same categories (example from a service administrator: “that person doesn’t turn up because they are [choose group] and the research shows they have an attitude problem so we struck them off the list”).

          I agree. However, it often shows how systematic bias is expressed in terms of individual interactions. I think how wearying it must be on the receiving end of this kind of un-thinking prejudice – all of the time.

  10. Puckish Rogue 10


    ‘As for the Greens, they’ve given up even a pretense of holding onto the moral high ground, and have been reduced to being just another political party.’

    • KJT 10.1

      Actually. I support the Waka jumping bill.

      If you are a list MP you are there because voters wanted your parties policies, or, being cynical, liked the party publicity. Either way, you are in Parliament because of your party.
      If you jump ship, then your position should go to the next on the party list.

      The Greens should not die in the ditch, for something even the members don’t agree on.

      • Dennis Frank 10.1.1

        I agree with all this. The thing must be progressed in the select committee yet, right? No reason to assume a suitable compromise can’t be reached. I suggested to the GP that we ought to allow a parliamentarian the right to declare intent to leave a party and tell the public why, while serving out their current term.

        This means the actual leaving takes effect at the end of the term, yet politicians are able to take a moral stand when necessary (that forces them to decide to leave their current waka). That way the principle of freedom of speech in accord with conscience is balanced against the social contract entered into with electors.

    • mikesh 10.2

      Perhaps the Green Party caucus agreed with the bill – it is hard to disagree with a bill designed to prevent waka jumping – but did not wish to admit the same to to wider party.

      • Puckish Rogue 10.2.1

        I was going to link to former Green MPs against this but then we all know there are many against it so I won’t bother

      • Dennis Frank 10.2.2

        I suspect the GP developed a policy on the original waka-jumping legislation long ago that was too one-sided. The unbalanced view expressed by Jeanette Fitzsimons and Keith Locke in recent times gives me this impression. Nowadays too many of us see the common interest context for that old opposition to survive.

    • Ad 10.3

      The Greens are so invisible they may as well not exist.

      • KJT 10.3.1

        You hope.

      • Puckish Rogue 10.3.2

        Its all right though, because they wouldn’t even consider talking with National it means they still have their morals, apparently

        • solkta

          They, and Shaw in particular, have said so many times that they would consider talking with National. But while spitting rhetoric all over the place National never did approach them. The Greens can work with National, all National have to do is change most of their key policies.

          • Puckish Rogue

            “The Greens can work with National, all National have to do is change most of their key policies.”

            Whereas all the Greens have to do to work with NZFirst is to do exactly what Winston says, yeah good deal that

            • solkta

              There has been a number of recent policy changes that Winston would obviously not be super happy about (and Jones must have had the shits). There is actually a lot of overlap between the policy of the three parties, between National and the Greens there is next to none.

              If there was common ground then English would have actually phoned Shaw after the election rather than just have his proxies talk about him doing so. If there was common ground then the Greens probably wouldn’t have done the MOU with Labour.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Yes we all know how it works:


                I always thought the Greens were above such practices but then again I’ve also never spent time in a ministerial car either so i’m assuming they must be very comfortable

                • solkta

                  Yes coalitions are about compromise. Perhaps you could list what compromises you think the Greens would have had to make to make a government with National?

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Horse trading, compromise , potato, potahto

                    Its all good right

                    • solkta

                      While it is distasteful that the Greens find the need to support this specific bill, yes it is good to have a change of government.

                      Since you can’t come up with anything constructive re coalition building, do you suggest that the Greens NEVER support a government and stay on the cross benches for ever? If so, how do you think this would implement more of their policies?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Being that you think that “all National have to do is change most of their key policies.” the first thing I’d suggest is the Greens come off their high horse (its probably a bit lower to the ground now) and actively try to find some common ground


                      Green co-leader Rod Donald reminded the House that “had this bill existed prior to the last [1999] election, we [Donald and Fitzsimons] would have been removed from this House and denied our opportunity to stay here for the full parliamentary term”.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      From wikipedia: “Anderton decided to leave the Alliance and establish a new party. However, rules regarding changes of party allegiance meant that Anderton and his allies could not officially resign from the Alliance without also resigning from parliament, which they were unwilling to do. This led to the awkward situation of Anderton and his allies technically remaining part of the Alliance while actually operating outside of it. The conflict within the Alliance was one of the reasons cited by Helen Clark for her calling the election several months early in 2002.”

                      As far as I know, our electoral law hasn’t been changed to eliminate this problem. If I’m right, we have a structural flaw in MMP that suitable consensus-based rewriting of the proposed waka-jumping legislation could rectify.

                    • solkta


                      Wow, you found ONE thing. Now how about you look at National’s key policies and tell us where the common ground is there.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      “Wow, you found ONE thing. Now how about you look at National’s key policies and tell us where the common ground is there.”

                      Here’s two



                    • solkta

                      The predator free thing is just all bullshit. It is typical National where they set a target call it sorted. There is no explanation as to how they would achieve this nor the willingness to throw anything like enough money at it.

                      In the second one National would act without consultation with Maori and that would be unacceptable to the Greens.

                      But lets day the Greens could talk National around on these, what dead rats would the greens have to swallow to achieve a coalition with National? How would these rats compare with supporting the waka jumping thing? What core policies would National be prepared to compromise on?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      “The predator free thing is just all bullshit. It is typical National where they set a target call it sorted. There is no explanation as to how they would achieve this nor the willingness to throw anything like enough money at it.”

                      – Maybe but its an opportunity for the Greens to come in and see about making the policy better or at the very least a chance to discuss it

                      “In the second one National would act without consultation with Maori and that would be unacceptable to the Greens.”

                      – Again its an opportunity to talk, even if its simply to discuss what you’ve bought up

                      “But lets day the Greens could talk National around on these, what dead rats would the greens have to swallow to achieve a coalition with National?”

                      – For the Greens the simple act of just talking means that Labour couldn’t just take the Greens support for granted and then the Greens could negotiate a better deal for their policies, like NZFirst have done

                      “How would these rats compare with supporting the waka jumping thing?”

                      – Being that if this policy was in earlier then the Green party might not even exist you can draw your own conclusions

                      “What core policies would National be prepared to compromise on?”

                      – Who knows how far Simon Bridges would go to gain power but what I do know is that if you’re not even prepared to talk then the answer is absolutely nothing whereas talking costs nothing (well maybe not nothing but I’m sure you get my meaning)

                    • solkta

                      The Greens have always been very clear that they will work with ANY party on individual policy. There was an mou on cycleways and insulation with the Key government when it first got in. But that government chose not to continue working with the Greens.

                      Anybody with half a brain can see that the Greens could not have formed a coalition with the Key National government. Bluffing that they could when that bluff is obvious would just be silly.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      ” Bluffing that they could when that bluff is obvious would just be silly.”

                      Being that Winston is/was suing various members of the National party its pretty clear he had no intention of working with National yet he manged to bull over a billion dollars to play with so no bluffing is not silly

                    • solkta

                      It’s like talking with a primary school kid. NZF is a centrist party with fuck all if any environmental policy. They were part of the Bolger National led government and Winston was a minister in the Muldoon National government. Nobody knows if Winston did seriously consider going with National this time, but if it was just a bluff it had a strong basis.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I can’t believe how incredibly naive you are. The Greens are Labours doormat, the Greens have been shafted by Labour before and if Winston had enough votes then Labour would have shafted the Greens again

                      The Greens allow themselves to be shafted by Labour because they give away any power they have to Labour by stating they’ll only go with Labour which means Labour doesn’t have to negotiate with the Greens

                    • solkta

                      When did i say that the Greens have not been shafted by Labour? You put words in my mouth and then call me naive. The naivety here is your knowledge of policy.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      “When did i say that the Greens have not been shafted by Labour? ”

                      I didn’t say you had, I’m saying they get shafted because they can’t or won’t talk to National which means they have no bargaining power so they have to support whatever NZFirst wants, like the waka jumping bill

                    • solkta

                      So we’re around the circle again. You have an example of one dead rat that the Greens need to swallow yet you are too ignorant of policy to understand that the Greens couldn’t have gone with National and presumably too stupid to see that bluffing that they could have would not have worked.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      “You have an example of one dead rat that the Greens need to swallow”

                      No, no, no, no, no, a thousand times no. How many times do I have to say no.

                      Stop deciding what I’m saying and read what I’m saying.

                      I’m not saying the Greens have to swallow any dead rats, they’re doing well enough on that on their own.

                      I’m saying they just have to talk. Thats all. Just. Talk. Don’t have to agree with anything. Just talk. Talk.

                      You get it now?

                      Just. Talk.


                      No promises. Just talk.

                      No agreements. Talk.

                      No signing anything. Just Talk.


                    • solkta

                      There will always be dead rats in coalition governments. Labour and NZF have swallowed a few.

                      As i say above, it is National that have chosen not to talk with the Greens and work with them on common goals.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      “As i say above, it is National that have chosen not to talk with the Greens and work with them on common goals.”

                      So what, Nationals on 40+%, the Greens are struggling to get above 5% but even then it doesn’t matter

                      The Greens have a lot more to gain than National do by simply talking, it is in the Greens best interests to talk.

                    • solkta

                      As i say above, it is National that have chosen not to talk with the Greens and work with them on common goals.

      • greywarshark 10.3.3

        Quiet, considered and well behaved.! Not like you Ad.

  11. Anne 11

    A mother discovers her son was part of a group of kids who were stealing items found on the outside of people’s homes. She reported him to the police and the police have now prosecuted him.


    It reminds me of a similar incident involving my brother when he was around 9 or 10 years old. In the 1950s he and a mate pinched stuff from shops in Queen St., Auckland. The stolen goods were stashed away under our home. Unfortunately for them a visiting 4 year old discovered the cache and raced upstairs with a bran new cricket bat and pads. All was revealed.

    Said brother was made to sit down and write a letter of apology addressed to the manager of each store and then both parents marched him into Queen St. where he had to deliver each letter in person and offer a verbal apology as well. It was then up to the managers whether they wanted to take the matter further. None of them did.

    Brother has often said since it taught him the lesson of his life and our parents could not have handled it in a better way.

    • JanM 11.1

      My son did similar to my 8 year-old grandson a few months ago – he had stolen lollies from the local dairy – the lesson was well learnt!
      He had been told by an older child that it was ok because it wasn’t stealing from a person! We had a long discussion about what people do to earn money to provide for their families – it was quite an eye-opener for him.

      • Anne 11.1.1

        Yep. I did the same around the same age only my crime was to steal three brightly coloured translucent plastic pencil sharpeners (shocking pink, emerald green and yellow) from a Woolworths counter. On finding them hidden in a drawer, my mother dragged me along to the local policeman – are genial middle aged gentleman – who proceeded to explain to me the evils of theft. I was mightily relieved I wasn’t going to be sent to prison.

        • greywarshark

          My son was put on diversion by the police, for stealing a CD. He had to pay for it, and hand it back I think. And was given time to find some community thing to do for 20 hours or so. He and a friend got up to it together. I am glad to say it was the only crime involved in.

          But at school my other son had the Nike shoes that I had managed to buy at sale price pinched from his locker which left me with a bad taste. I hadn’t marked them with an identifier and just let it go. I believe that some children just steal in circles, one loses something so steals from another, and it passes round. I didn’t want to join in that behaviour, so lost out on my shoes. It crossed my mind that you could never have anything if the neighbours just took anything they felt the want for.

  12. The Chairman 12

    Posted this the other day, it didn’t get much attention, so here it is again.

    Government seeks public input on well-being indicators

    “Our nation’s well-being is not a number on a GDP chart, and our government, this government, recognises that,” Mr Shaw said. “The economy is obviously important but GDP is not the be all, end all.”

    Mr Shaw said this was about understanding the real picture of success and well-being that went beyond just productivity and turnover and throughput.

    “Most people will tell you that the security of their job, the health of their kids and their ability to pay the power bill is more important to them.”


    On that note, lets start with taking count of the number of power bills that are missed annually.

    The number of suicides.

    The number of hardship grants.

    The number of thefts/robberies, violent crime.

    The number of Homelessness/Housing NZ waiting list.

    The above are a number of measurable indicators to start things off.

    What measurable indicators would you like to see used, thus added on to the list?

    Millsy added housing costs exceeding 60% of household income.

  13. greywarshark 13

    I made the point the other day how we get used by the USA to provide aid as in firefighting but we have responsibilities of our own to help our little Pacific neighbours.

    These are real people living just,. on little Pentecost Island. They and others need our help. I think the firefighters dropped tools and organised immediately to help the urgent need in usa. Let’s do he same for PENTECOST.

    Incidentally there was a warning tag of the unpleasant results that present day efficiency thinking leads to. Someone said that it would seem unnecessary to keep trained USA firefighters in readiness for on-call situations that occurred over a few months of the year! The idea of that big country having to run on such a lean, mean budget that they were unable to envisage a system to have sufficient firefighters from all 50+ states which are supposed to be ‘united’ is amazing. They could have dedicated firefighters contracted to keep in a trained and
    (program helpfully wipes out whole line) – think I said
    that the contracted firefighters would be in a state of readiness, and have jobs for the rest of time that would allow them to be released when needed. It’s not rocket science.

    But no, the commenter seemed to think it was quite reasonable to call on other countries with their own problems. ‘You’ll come and help us because you are our friends won’t you. If you want to receive friendly treatment from us, you have to come when we call you.’ There is a name for that behaviour.

    • Exkiwiforces 13.1

      Looks like the Solomons Government has drop the ball on this one and I’m a little bit surprised they haven’t requested help from NZ or Australia governments for aid.

      I think the HMNZS Canterbury is on her way back from attending RIMPAC and since the Endi has been retired the Navy has no ship available atm for HADR Tasks. Thanks to the short sightedness of the first Labour Coalition IRT Project Protector the OPV’s are about as useful as having a fistful of fifties a pub with no beer IRT HADR role which is very limited in what the OPV’s can achieve.

      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        Are OPVs those runabouts with thicker steel than usual. I always wondered
        about Labour buying a lot more than needed. I think they dropped some fighter aircraft that would have put us in line for war work about that time.
        I wondered if someone said well you can cancel that order only if you buy these that are available and that is the deal take it or leave it. Don’t know, just a thought. But that might be an explanation.

        • Exkiwiforces

          Yes the OPV’s had an ice belt added to give the OPV’s a 1C classification to operate in the Southern Ocean. Which has made the two ships between 200- 300 tones overweight, with CC effects the 1C classification is about as useless as tits on a bull atm also the length and beam are starting to an issue in the Southern Waters. Also they can’t embark the Seasprites down Sth either as they would be very useful for carrying boarding parties instead using the RIB’s which rated up to Sea State 4, but for WHS issues only do boarding at Sea State3.


          The other major issue is the very limited mission support systems they have which effects how much information they can process/ transmit to and from the P3’s, Seasprites, and other ships within the Navy or Coalition assets.

          As for HADR Missions they can carry 3 20ft TEU’s with 16 ton crane unless the OPV is alongside (which isn’t to badly damage)or the use of a lighter on a flat Sea it’s almost pointless to conduct HADR task as Seasprite has a load restrictions for Vertrep

          To sum up the OPV’s are a one tick pony with a very compromised design that’s really not suit to the Southern Ocean, but take the ice belt off them they would be a lovely ship the Northern waters or use around NZ waters providing the mission and combat systems were up graded.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.2

      A nation needs to be able to respond to the emergencies that happen within its borders else the response may not be in time. We saw this with the Rena grounding. We should have been able to respond nearly instantly but instead it took weeks and several million dollars in damage both to the local environment and the economy.

  14. Exkiwiforces 14

    Love this wee article on the stuff website about lawyers finding a 1947 Law IRT to mouldy rental homes. I hope these Landlords who are a bunch of tight asses get a good kicking up their freckle and put all other landlords on notice.


    • greywarshark 14.1

      I think that landlords need to be aware of things in the present that might affect their homes when tenants are living in, and help in keeping mould and dampness down.

      1 Is the home tightly sealed to prevent draughts and loss of heating.
      It may need some grills put into the walls so that movement of air can occur.
      There could be some advice on this so that a grill on the north or west side balances one on the south or east side so allowing a flow of warm, dry air to move towards the colder, damper side. If the house is closed up, then there is air movement and fresh air can enter.

      2 Gutters can get full of leaves and water won;t flow away and can find its way down the inside of the weatherboards and through to the inner lining. The landlord should get a reliable person to check and clear these.

      3 The home may be left tightly closed during the day while the tenants are out partly to prevent burglary. It would help to put security stays on one window in each of say three rooms. Also there is a window catch for aluminium windows that has two positions, one gives tight closure, the other enables a small air flow

      4 The people may not be in the house for any lengthy period during the day on any day of the week when they could open the windows for fresh air and enabling sun and warm air into the room. People are having to work odd hours, irregular hours, and just trying to manage from week to week is stressful.

      5 While climate change and energy conservation have rid houses of smoky fires and replaced them often with electricity, families may not be able to afford much time having the appliances on. The Labour Party has alleviated the problem for beneficiaries but what about the general population.?

      I think that grills high up in the walls that could vent right through to the outer wall would help. Not many and left uncovered, would not be a problem to the tenants. Fan and heater installed in the bathroom and properly vented to the outside would help. Also separate button just for fan to ensure that it would be turned on to suck out the steam.

      Red Logix would have thoughts on this.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.2

      That’s a great example of laws simply being forgotten simply because, IMO, we have too much law and it never being enforced. The latter makes the law itself worthless.

  15. joe90 16

    Oh dear.

    I waded into the brain-rotting waters of QAnon to compile a comprehensive field guide to their insane codenames, symbols, and theories for all of you. https://t.co/ManNDuBJVB— justin caffier (@JustinCaffier) 12 de juny de 2018


  16. Draco T Bastard 17

    ‘Earth Overshoot Day’ arrives earlier than ever

    As of Thursday, humanity’s used more resources in 2018 than the Earth can produce in a whole year, according to environmentalists.

    According to Global Footprint Network, this year’s ‘Earth Overshoot Day’ came earlier than ever before.

    “Since the 1970s, when global ecological overshoot became a reality, we have been using more renewable natural resources than our planet can regenerate,” the international non-profit says.

    We have the choice of maintaining our present unsustainable practices or becoming sustainable. All indications are that we’ll continue being unsustainable until we wipe ourselves and most of all other life out.

  17. eco maori 19

    Good Morning Newshub We all ready produce enough food to feed all the tangata of Papatuanuku.
    The beings that eat genitally modified food genetics can change thats not good.
    The Big companys that have showen that we can not trust will own the patience to this food and control them thats reality they will drag as much money out of people that they can and lie when things go wrong with there prouducts..
    IT.s not a business they have heaps of money and rich backers its a movement from the far right neo liberal Capitalist advertising campane so they get there bull—-views out to the world look at steve touring Europe .
    Parenting is not as hard as some make out to be so long as you are organized.
    The free fees will bring in more teachers and other skill’s that are in a big shortage in Aotearoa.. Duncan why are you not talking about Ka kite ano.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105975362/law-society-superinjunction-overturned-allowing-disclosure-of-sexual-harassment-case this the warrant that they are using to suppress Eco Maori the 00.1 % OWN the laws of the whenua and make them work to protect there ASS ana to kai P.S my flute sing the sweet music to educate common person on how systems are made for the 00.1 %

  18. eco maori 20

    I say this story is trying to give reason to the bad way the hosptial treated me and my 11 year old mokopuna firstly she did not have a xray secondly the staff did not inform me or my daughter that they were going to pregnancy test my mokopunas urine we only found that fact out when we read the paper work they asked my granddaughter some question that were indicating that’s the angle they were looking at for my moko ailment I ignored this I was pissed but when We found what they did behind our backs this is my reaction so this link has no comparrision to the way they are treating me and my Whano. link below Ka kite ano

    P.S I don’t support violence I support using the system’s against the foes this is the Honorable intelligent way that Eco Maori will win this BATTLE

  19. eco maori 21

    This is what trump is doing to the EPA rolling back all the laws that were put in place to lower there carbon use .
    trump is digging a deep hole one day its going to come crashing around his ears .
    Link below.


    Ka kite ano

  20. Eco Maori 22

    To all te good kiwis on Aotearoa Rangi is not going to fall on our heads because everyone learning the way tangata whenua have been treated as second class citizens like we do not have the capacity to work te whenua to make te mone so we should lose our land to Pakeha who are superior and will make te mone for NZ. Maori should lose Te whenua by hook or crook Its good for the country .
    As one person put it we should be thankful on public holiday and voluntary wash his car.
    You will learn the truth about what happened in the past and learn that we want to be treated as equals in our country we are not going to take your property. I have a link to help people understand te tangata whenua

    Old certainties, old prejudices, old fears are losing their grip Ka kite ano

  21. eco maori 23

    Good evening Newshub Its a win for people power with Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux having there venue cancelled at the last minute that’s what I saw Kia kaha te tangata mana ka pai .
    Thats a good plan everyone keep there pet cats and dogs controlled to help our native species thrive in urban places and pokeko as pet’s
    There you go human caused global warming its getting real hot in Europe we will have to resigned our city’s to cope with these heat waves . 9 months of red algae bloom in America
    Paddy I don’t want to comment to much on glory vale what I have to say won’t be good.
    That will be a great documentary that Cliff and co I missed the names of the other who made this great Mana Whine documentary great to be cellabrating te tangata whenua cultured tangata ka kite ano

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