Open mike 02/06/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 2nd, 2012 - 81 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

81 comments on “Open mike 02/06/2012”

  1. Carol 1

    The reported statement in 2005 about the reasons for the Shonkey one sending his children to private schools has gone viral:

    The Prime Minister told the Listener he sent his children to private schools for educational reasons, including smaller classes and better resources.

    It was not a direct quote, but a picture of Mr Key with the comment alongside was posted on Facebook yesterday and by last night had appeared on numerous blogs and been shared by more than 6000 people.

    Power to the people!

    PS: Pity about the comic piece beside this article, with a photo of a comedian with a ludicrous speech bubble spewing out of his mouth.

  2. Carol 2

    Out-sourcing copy editors off-shore leads to some real stuff-ups in the headlines – like this one for the NZ Herald.

    Surely the headline should read:

    Marauding police surround students
    and not vice versa as seen this morning on the NZH online?

    • yeshe 2.1

      Carol .. do they really out-source copy editng offshore ? Where to ??

    • seeker 2.2

      Well said Carol. Was furious when I saw this headline. Nearly choked over a cup of tea when I saw the 4.30pm TVNZ news yesterday and saw police lifting people by their necks using armholds and fingers around throats, crushing a person’s head by their neck into the concreted ground and then saw a policeman pull his arm back and really punch a student hard at least a couple of times. I was absolutely stunned and horrified .The students were passive and to their absolute credit did not retaliate.This video was sanitised by the time it reached the six o’ clock news, I could find it nowhere on the TVNZ site. Thus I went to TV3 and found much of what I previously witnessed, however there was only a slight glimpse of the policeman punching some one.I saved them in case they ‘disappeared’ too.

      Student protests Auckland Queen Street, Friday, June1st 2012 TV3:
      Violent strangling punching from police 10.36pm—students/tabid/309/articleID/256436/Default.aspx

      “Three police to one woman” 3.07pm

      6.01 news Jane Liscome,, some violence from police shown

      Why were some of the police so dangerous? Have they not had training into how to handle peaceful protests?

      It seems, from the Herald story you have just linked to that someone is spinning. Even Bill English’ part in the provocation was watered down. This type of untruthful and ‘spin’ reporting infuriates me.
      It could have been my son, who is a student in Auckland, that could have been manhandled like this by the police. My fury would have known no bounds, and misrepresentation of the facts would have poured further fuel on my anger.

      • Dr Terry 2.2.1

        Peaceful protest has become no longer a democratic right in this country. Violent police learned their stuff elsewhere – you can guess where.

    • muzza 2.3

      The headline is a disgrace alright…

      I’m just windering how long it takes til people start to understand, what “outsourcing” is really all about.

      Much more to it than face value!

      This country is heading into very dark places, which people seem to think won’t happen here.

      If it happens abroad, it WILL come to NZ!

    • weka 2.4

      I posted this in the other thread. Marauding is the wrong word. It means pillaging, looting, pirating etc. Someone should complain.

  3. Standard authors – do you want to support a campaign to get a debate on the future of our Super?

    This is not about specific options for Super at this stage, it’s to build a campaign for dealing with and debating super. Super is one of the most important issues facing us over the next half century. We need to discuss it and deal with it.

    David Shearer is pushing for a cross party discussion. And according to Duncan Garner:

    – The Greens have said yes,
    – ACT would join,
    – the Maori Party want in,
    – Hone Harawira won’t say no
    – and Winston Peters could be tempted.
    – Peter Dunne says everyone must join up for this to have credibility.

    SO how about cross-blog support for this? Combine the power of the blogs. Post a blog, or comment here in support.

    BADASS – Bloggers Advancing Debate About Super Solutions

    • Bill 4.1


      The deal that accompanied the end of chattel slavery was that us ‘new found’ slaves for rent (forced into the position through violent dispossession and enclosure) would be allowed to work our way to freedom. Ie, we would rent our labour for a number of years and in return it was acknowledged we wouldn’t be forced to rent ourselves out in later years.

      Okay, it wasn’t exactly a deal. It was an imposition. And that’s why many people died or had their lives ruined, first in resistence, and then, when that was quashed, attempting to improve various aspects of our end of ‘the deal’.

      And now we are being told….well no, this is what we’re not being told…that our wages have been driven so low by those seeking to profit from our labour, that government cannot raise enough money from us in the way of taxes to provide for retirement. What we are being told is that we need to rent ourselves out for a larger proportion of our life span because….because, well shit… just because really. But not because profits, unlike people, have to remain inviolate.

      • Pete George 4.1.1

        No what? No to doing anything about it?

        Or do you have another viable solution to talking about all the options are working out a sustainable way forward?

        • Bill

          The ‘no’ refers to the fact that any such debate should be off the table. Why should it be off the table? Read my comment. Any government daring to make even the slightest hint of extending the years of rented out labour would, in a society that knew its history, be ‘gone by lunch time’.

          And anyway, what is the ‘it’ that something needs done about Pete? I guess in your world it simply couldn’t be the enormous and continuely rising rate of profit that has essentially diverted resources away from workers and by extension governments and so society at large.

          You want a sustainable way forward Pete? Well how about you firts of all recognise what it is that is unsustainable? Here’s a hint, it’s capitalism and its demand for growth. So whatever sustainable way it is that we might develop going forwards; this isn’t it Pete.

          And even within the parameters of Capitalism…since I doubt you’ll ever get beyond a quizzical DUH? when trying to get your head around why some people might not be enamored by the whole shebang…. selectively picking out little bits of so-called ‘economic unsustainability’ and not looking at how that transpired…refusing to look at the bigger picture,the context… is a sheer fucking dishonest nonsense that any politician, for having brought it into the arena of public debate, should fucking swing for.

          • Pete George

            I’ve acknowledged the capitalism ponzi problem for quite a while Bill.

            I’m far less certain that a complete change in economic system is necessary to attain sustainability. One of the biggest impediments is the entrenched attitude of most of the population who are addicted to consumerism.

    • Dr Terry 4.2

      I fail to see National mentioned in your cross-party list, is this an error? I think my sight is alright. Are all the others truly likely to get far?

      • Pete George 4.2.1

        Not an error, Nationbal’s current position is to do nothing and change nothing, while Key is still PM. English says the same – see National’s toes dug in Super.

        So we have four options:
        1. Go the National way and kick the can down the road, until 2014, or 2017, or…
        2. Build support and pressure to “encourage” National to change their minds and at least start the discussion necessary to address it.
        3. Ignore National’s intransigence and do as much work as possible discussing and investigating and decidedin amongst everyone else so that when the next Non-National led government gets in any changes can be started as soon as possible.
        4. Wait and hope for Bill’s revolution (and hope there are no adverse effects or unforeseen consequences and hope that there’s a miracle transformation to go with it).

        • mike e

          pg hair should grow some and sort it out with national he could force national to stop wasting time and fobbing the issue.No plan National and by default the hair the MP for Ohairyu

          • Pete George

            he could force national to stop wasting time and fobbing the issue

            I don’t know how you think he could do that. He can’t force National or any other party to do anything.

            UF does have an agreement with National to have a discussion paper on super this term, and National have said they will honour that commitment (Bill Enlish reeaffirmed that on Thursday). So that’s a toe in the door opportunity. I’m doing what I can to help make the most of that toe in the door, and trying to involve any other party that is willing to be involved as much as possible.

            This BADASS initiative could help in this respect, the wider and larger the public support for doing soemthing the more more that can be done, sooner. Maybe not as soon as some of us would prefer, but it’s far better than doing nothing.

            • mickysavage

              Pete stop trying to gain the cudos for this.  Labour and the Greens are the only parties brave enough to raise this as an issue and discuss it.  UF just confused the issue by proposing something that actually achieved nothing.

              If you want to do something of use persuade the follicled one to withdraw support for the Government.  This is the one and only thing UF could do if it is interested in achieving a solution. 

              • That’s one of the sillier things you’ve said. It would make a mockery of a coalition agreement and our MMP if UF withdrew support from the Government.

                And it would remove the one guaranteed chance of official Super discussions.That opportunity can be used to the max, or ignored, which would probably result in no progress on Super this term.

                I don’t expect you to understand non-partisan practical politics, but I know some in Labour do.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  Pete, seeing National has said they are not at all interested in substantive talks, then what can be done?

                  UFs coalition agreement is a farce that will achieve nothing on this. It’s designed to achieve nothing on this. Signing up to it was an agreement by Dunne that nothing will be actually done.

                  So he either honours it, and toes national’s ‘do nothing’ line, or he tries to get a majority in parliament to do something without national. But the coalition agreement thing cannot be a part of getting anything done, because it is with National, who are adament that they are not going to do anything.

                  • seeing National has said they are not at all interested in substantive talks, then what can be done?

                    Simple. All other parties can work together to ensure there are substantive talks.

                    Even if Labour was leading government now nothing would actually be changing this term, they were only proposing signalling change starting in 2020.

                    But now there is a guaranteed opportunity to begin a discussion which can be used to prepare for when we have a government willing to act on it.

                    Suggest a better way to do it.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      But now there is a guaranteed opportunity to begin a discussion which can be used to prepare for when we have a government willing to act on it.

                      There is always an opportunity to talk about it Pete, and it’s always gauranteed. But the coalition agreement ‘talk’ is guaranteed to fail. It’s predetermined to fail. It’s between National and UF, and National have said they are not for changing.

                      Suggest a better way to do it.

                      how about the various parties work out what they want to do in terms of policy, advocate for those policies, and then we put it up to a vote from the entire electorate in the form of an election, After that election the parties elected to parliament will negotiate untill some combination can form a government and implement policy.

                      that sounds a lot better to me than a bunch of undemocratic back room dealiing

                • Well two predictions Petey.  Absolutely nothing will be done this term to address the issue of future retirement pressures.  And the coiffured one will continue to receive his grossly excessive salary and get driven around by limos paid with our coin.

                  • When does he “get driven around by limos”? I think that’s an uninformed criticism based on no facts. As far as I know he drives himself around Wellington in an ordinary sort of car.

                    • Baubles of office, Pete, baubles of office.

                      And stop diverting.  If you are keen to do something about retirement then persuade UF to jump up and down and insist on National at least talking about the subject.  Labour and the Greens will happily take part in the discussion. 

                    • You’re the one who baubled on with diversions, remember?

                      persuade UF to jump up and down and insist on National at least talking about the subject

                      Keep up. UF have already got a (C&S) commitment from National to talk about it. No other party has managed that yet.

                    • Well talk about it all you want Petey but I repeat prediction one:

                      Absolutely nothing will be done this term to address the issue of future retirement pressures.

                    • weka

                      “Well talk about it all you want Petey”

                    • Absolutely nothing will be done this term to address the issue of future retirement pressures.

                      If everyone buys into that then you will be right. If enough people are prepared to stand up and push, then it will at least perpare the way.

                      Maybe you should talk to David Shearer, it seems to be a major priority of his, he is talking to other parties about it quietly and proposing co-operative action publicly.

                      Once again it seems I’m more supportive of what your leader is doing than you are. Why don’t you get in behind him on that, help drive it. I think it needs an inside/outside parliament multi party approach. I’m happy to work with you on it.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Just print the money to cover the super needs. Whats the problem again?

                    • Sorry Weka, my bad …

        • Dr Terry

          Yes, I think we can only do what is manageable, given the Key intransigence. Hopefully such cross-party consultation as might be possible will at least be persuasive with the public.Points 2 and 3 look positive possibilities. I agree with your comment on National’s current position.

    • millsy 4.3

      We only need to look at places like the USA, whese we see retirees having to live on the street or work in low wage jobs because their retirement savings were wiped out in various crashes, or their employer was able to get out of making good on their pension obligations, ie United Airlines, various city and local governments, etc, to be thankful of the existence of NZ Super, which is only becoming expensive because of 20 years of tax cuts, especially in terms of wealth taxes.

      I have noticed that those who scream the loudest about this are those who:

      1) Work in the financial sector and would make a lot money from managing pension accounts, or advising people where to invest for their retirements.
      2) Those who have a secure retirement to look forward to
      3) Those looking for cheap labour
      4) People who just resent people on low incomes/state assistance.

      • KJT 4.3.1

        Don’t forget those in sedentary jobs, who can easily work until 80.

        Are happy to make those work on whose more demanding jobs destroy their physical or mental health.
        Unfortunately enough to make work difficult, but not enough to get an invalids benefit.

      • Foreign Waka 4.3.2

        You hit the nail on the head. The only group whose funding is affording the lifestyle of the abysmal greedy with some sort of “guaranty” is the taxpayer. The longer they can milk this group the better for them. Naturally.

  4. Four years ago Comedian and Guardian journalist Charlie Skelton went to Greece to rapport and possibly ridicule the “conspiracy” theorists who tried to attend the Global population to the fact that on average 200 of the richest and most powerful people met in secret to “talk freely”about global affairs. That was four years ago.
    But when Charlie was followed and bullied and scared shitless by some of the Bilderberg goons he decided to have a closer look.
    Today Charlie after following BIlderberg and visiting each consecutive Bilderberg meeting (Outside with all the other Bilderberg watchers) Charlie talks a very different tune.
    So here is Charlie in the Guardian for those of you still firmly entrenched in the artificial Left/Right political paradigm.

    • weka 5.1

      If the meetings are in secret, how could anyone follow them? I will go read the article though.

    • weka 5.2

      Sorry, couldn’t finish it. It was funny, but my eyes started glazing over at the lists of people who I was supposed to know the significance of but didn’t. Does it actually get to explain anything?

  5. Jellytussle 6

    I had to laugh at Hansard the other day. (

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I think that is one of the factors. I also agree with the OECD when, in 2010, we were rated as having the second-to-best water quality, by Yale and Columbia.

    Dr Russel Norman: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Yale report that he just quoted from has now been updated and our ranking has moved from second to 43rd, and does his Government take credit for the movement in our ranking in the Yale report from second to 43rd?

    • weka 6.1

      Lol. What a bunch of clowns we have running the place.

      • seeker 6.1.1

        So true weka.

      • muzza 6.1.2

        They are not clowns, they are actors filling their role in a script!

        Believing they are simply inept is to be missing a much more serious problem!

    • Dv 6.2

      What was very interesting is Norman was NOT allowed to table the latest Yale report.

      If we ignore it it does not exist!,

      • seeker 6.2.1

        On Red Alert May 30, David Cunliffe spoke about a similar thing happening to him under a post entitled “Spin, damned spin, and Steven Joyce

        “In response to parliamentary oral question 7 today, economic development Minister Steven Joyce tried to deflect today’s announced cut to New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER) 2012 growth forecast to a “stagnant” 1.5%, by saying this was all due to the supposed increase in the domestic savings rate.

        Perhaps he was hoping that, as the NZIER publication is subscription-only, it was not going to be available to the Opposition, or to the public, and we would be unaware of his spin.

        The problem for him, though, is I had the report in my hand and then I sought to table it.

        National withheld leave for me to do so, to prevent you from judging for yourself.”

        So David C posted the overview of the report to undermine Joyce’s spin and counteract this national MO of preventing tabling of information that national wants to ignore or deny. In other words, “what Mr Joyce thinks he can get away with in Question Time if no one is checking.”

      • Draco T Bastard 6.2.2

        Yeah, I’ve noticed recently that NACT are objecting to tabling any material that shows just how bad they are.

        • Lanthanide

          What are the rules and the purpose for objecting to things being tabled?

          • Jackal

            It’s the intent of Standing Orders 368 and 374 to allow members of the House to be informed on matters not readily available to it by the tabling of documents. It’s meant to be a way for an assertion to be backed up with evidence.

            You need to seek leave to table documents that are outside the scope of parliament or normal avenues of information gathering. There are meant to be good grounds to object to somebody seeking leave, however National MP’s have taken to abusing the process because there is so much information available that they would prefer was not officially registered.

            While the Hansard is not required to log who is objecting to the tabling of documents and the Speaker continues to allow objections without good reason, such abuses of the system will continue.

    • Dr Terry 6.3

      Delightful! Thanks for spotting this. Good too for Russell Norman. How we need him now and, I hope, well into the future.

  6. just saying 7

    I’ve just upgraded firefox, and now find ‘The Standard’ format slighly different, and irritatingly, lots of boxes popping up offering different kinds of ‘help’. Anyone else experiencing this?

    • Bill 7.1

      Using Firefox 12, which is apparently all up to date. And no problems.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.2


      • just saying 7.2.1

        Maybe a dictionary, or a spell check, or a quick, find will come in handy. Eventually.

    • weka 7.3

      A month or so ago something changed in Firefox so that whenever I click on the reply link it opens the box but then jumps me to the bottom of the page so I have to scroll back up.
      Re the help popups, have you looked in the Preference settings?

      • just saying 7.3.1

        Thanks Weka.
        Yes it is mainly in the reply box. I can’t get in because it wants to spell check or offers me other tools before I’ve even got my cursor into the box, let alone written anything, and often blocks me getting into the box with the “help”.
        I’ll try the preference settings.
        btw I should have said that I don’t bother much with spelling and grammar rather than that I don’t often need it 😀

      • Te Reo Putake 7.3.2

        Weka, this has been a bug in Firefox for ages. It’s mildly annoying, particularly on posts with lots of comments, but I’ve learned to live with it! The other oddity is the comments RSS feed seems to be very short (ie. only a few comments) compared to other browsers.

        • ropata

          Check you have the latest version of Firefox (v12)
          Disable add-ons (for example, NoScript) that could interfere with the comment box
          Or try Google Chrome…

        • Draco T Bastard

          this has been a bug in Firefox for ages.

          Doesn’t do that for me.

          The other oddity is the comments RSS feed seems to be very short (ie. only a few comments) compared to other browsers.

          I believe that Lynn shortened the RSS feeds to save on bandwidth.

          • lprent

            Not comments. Just the posts which got clipped to the excerpt from the front page.Worked a treat – our expensive overseas traffic dropped quite a lot.

      • Jackal 7.3.3

        You might want to remove super cookies as well weka, as they can cause all sorts of problems. Here’s a helpful post outlining the process.

        Have you guys heard of the Flame virus? Now that’s some scary stuff.

      • Vicky32 7.3.4

        A month or so ago something changed in Firefox so that whenever I click on the reply link it opens the box but then jumps me to the bottom of the page so I have to scroll back up.

        I have the same experience, and have to faff about finding it, as well, which is a pain on dial up, I tell you!

      • Vicky32 7.3.5

        A month or so ago something changed in Firefox so that whenever I click on the reply link it opens the box but then jumps me to the bottom of the page so I have to scroll back up.

        I have the same experience, and have to faff about finding it, as well, which is a pain on dial up, I tell you!
        I tried to post this and got ‘internal server error’… whatever that means!
        When trying to post this comment I got an ‘internal server error’, and the advice that I ought to contact you, and detail what I might have done to cause the problem – to which the answer is “blowed if I know’!

        ”    month or so ago something changed in Firefox so that whenever I click on the reply link it opens the box but then jumps me to the bottom of the page so I have to scroll back up.

        I have the same experience, and have to faff about finding it, as well, which is a pain on dial up, I tell you!”

    • Murray Olsen 7.4

      No problem with Firefox on my Mac, except for the way Apple manufacture them.

  7. millsy 8

    Has anyone heard any more news about the PoA dispute?

    PoA and MUNZ went back to negotiations but after that, everything went quiet..

    Is there going to be a new CEA? What about the contracting out plans?

    • KJT 8.1

      Last I heard POAL were waiting for the POAL industrial relations ACT to be enacted so they did not have to negotiate. Good faith or otherwise.

      POAL’s lawyer died and the court cases were adjourned, so at present they are talking, but MUNZ has no illusions that POAL will not have another go at casualisation when the law is changed.

  8. muzza 9

    A majority of countries in the 47-nation rights council supported a US and Arab-led resolution condemning the “outrageous use of force against the civilian population” in Houla.

    –Hey who are the Arab League anyway (not using the name Arab League anymore I notice…Oh thats right, Bahrain, Qatar and other assorted murderers, liers and dictators…But they are monarchist states, so part of the imperial love fest!

    –Good old NZH still playing its part in the global narrative relay system for the imperialists!

    Still no mention of the death squads, or the sects all now killing eachother…Nah its as simple as the Syrian Govt Forces against the “rebel” civillians! Nice and simply packaged for very stupid people!

  9. Te Reo Putake 11

    At a Labour regional conference. Biggest turnout in years! Great speech from David Shearer, very confident and looking more and more like the next PM. DC up now, talking about our future clean tech economy. Grant Robertson next.
    Its been an interesting approach from the leadership, asking questions of the participants, rather than lecturing from on high. The discussion paper on the ongoing organisational review has been received really well and has stimulated a lot of talk among the delegates. Presumably that will flow on into the remits session tomorrow, where there is going to be some robust debate on how we re-engage the voters, particularly the lower paid enrolled non voters.

    • Anne 11.1

      Sounds like a repeat performance of last week-end’s Auck./Northland conference TRP. I liked the way Shearer brought in his senior colleagues to answer questions specific to their portfolios. It wasn’t that he couldn’t answer them himself, but he presumably wants them to share the platform with him. I found it very refreshing and suggests Labour is going to do the opposite to National and promote themselves as a well-oiled team rather than a one man band.

      Was that the reason certain sections of the media – mainstream and elsewhere – were recently trying to create a perception of Labour caucus division with talk of warring factions and caucus rows?

      • Te Reo Putake 11.1.1

        No sign of division at all, there are 8 MP’s, all singing from the same song sheet. The day has just finished with an excellent presentation from Young Labour. We are so lucky having these young activists coming through, they are just so positive, so ready to be part of the political future of NZ!

    • muzza 11.2

      Interested to hear thoughts on what you believe, yet another change in government is really going to achieve for NZ, seriously its an honest question..Dont come back with we wont sell assets etc!

      Until you hear them talking about RBNZ audits, or printing project funds, as is our sovereign right to do, then you can forget about it…

      Young activists coming through, so lucky…Voice come on bro, these peoople have got nothing, nothing to offer NZ long term survivial, and as long as people such as yourself continue to believe that, then all I can do is say, thanks very much for being part of the problem, would you have a think about some self evaluation!

      Blah blah blah, waste of time because the serious issues are out of our parliaments hands!

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