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Open mike 02/07/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:52 am, July 2nd, 2014 - 185 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

185 comments on “Open mike 02/07/2014 ”

  1. BLiP 1

    Dear John – we know what you are . . . http://youtu.be/H_dRe21rH18

    • Tracey 1.1

      wow BLiP? that is way powerful. I am facebooking the link now and encourage others to do the same.

      Can you post the full lyrics?

    • Tracey 1.2

      Dear  John

      Dear John, Im writing to extend an invitation.
      An opportunity to join us for a feast of food and celebration
      Far beyone imagination, of what
      you made of them or me, you made us what we are.

      Cos you’re all heart John.
      you’re all heart John.

      Please take off your shoes and I will welcome you into my home
      Oh it might seem kind of lonely till the other guests make themselves known
      and thankyou for your commendation of my choices, but there is only one
      that would keep you in the style to which you’ve become acccustomed.

      But you’re all heart John.
      you’re all heart John.

      Delicacy of flavour, oh it fill the senses, feel it come
      in rarity anf favours, all laid out since you were bred and born
      and we only get to do this once, cos it’s far beyond our means.
      Dont let me bore you with the details – I know you want to taste a part of each

      Cos, you’re all heart John.
      you’re all heart John.

      A moments silence, please.
      To thank our guests and bless this food that’s only yours to eat.
      Oh and their names are written underneath each plate
      each dish, each tasteless grave
      but yes, you like the flavour
      and you wont change.
      you’re all heart John.
      you’re all heart John.
      you’re all heart John.

      There but for the grace of god goes you or I
      you taste every story, but do you recognise?
      you’re so free with the glaze, and it disguises the taste
      of what you know this if for.
      What its for.
      We, we’re all here. We feel each bite, we feel each tear as you sew the seeds
      your pound of flesh, your fiscal year.
      Know what you are know what you need know what you want, know on what you feed
      dear john. 

      The Shadow Line

    • Rosie 1.3

      Beautiful, strong and succinct. Jordan Reyne is a talented song writer and singer. I hadn’t heard any of her work for awhile and that brilliant song has inspired me to look at her EP releases planned for the year, A trilogy entitled Maiden, Mother, Crone with the Crone EP being released back in April, which Dear John is on.


      Excellent video too.

      Thanks for the inspiration of the day BLiP

    • Chooky 1.4

      +100 BLip

      Wow thanks!…fantastic voice and lyrics from someone young…like Pink’s ‘Dear Mr President’…the famous protest song against Bush

      ( …as well as appealing to youth ….. the visuals should make waves with the vegetarians ….completely put me off eating meat!)

      this should be played often!…so it becomes a popular rallying call for youth against John Key and NACT!

  2. xtasy 2

    After having read questions and comments on David Cunliffe’s Q+A on The Standard last Sunday, I was sadly at best only “moderately impressed”: http://thestandard.org.nz/david-cunliffe-qa/

    Stephanie Rodgers asked David:
    “Would your government set benefits at levels which allow people to live with dignity, and ensure benefits increase to match rises in the cost of living? Will Labour in government stop categorising beneficiaries who are unable to work as “Jobseekers” – and the subsequent harassment from WINZ to justify their situation/seek jobs they can’t do?”

    David answered:
    “I’m not going to announce our welfare policy here. But what I can tell you is that the systematic victimisation and demonisation of beneficiaries we’ve seen under National has absolutely no place in Labour’s values or a Labour Government.”

    CV commented further to that, mentioning that welfare issues have been of great concern to many here on TS.

    After reading that, which seems to have been the one and only real, firm question about social security and welfare policy in the Q+A session with David, I had to ask myself again, why are Labour leaving potential votes of say at least 100 to 200 thousand on benefits lie on the roadside, and why do they not deliver us honest answers and firm policy commitments, 11 weeks out from the general election?

    Affordable housing, regional development, promoting value added manufacturing, making power prices affordable, bringing in fairer taxation, higher minimum wages, and more support for parents of newborns, all that is admittedly important, but it is IRRESPONSIBLE to NOT address major issues that can be resolved by delivering FIRM policy now. The trust of the many without jobs, and those unable to work due to sickness and disability, and those struggling as sole parents, could deliver potential votes that can make a difference this election.

    Last election some “welfare policy” was announced days before the election, and it did not gain any traction, and I fear Labour are again “playing” with us on benefits, announcing a tiny, half-hearted carrot just before the election, which will be too late to win over tens if not 100 to 200 thousand, who have given up on Labour and other parties, and are likely to stay away again.

    I demand answers NOW! Even a vote for Greens or Mana, depending on Labour as the main partner in an alternative government, may not be able to deliver much for us on benefits, as Labour may not give them much leeway in negotiations.

    Especially us sick and disabled want answers, do you in Labour support the UK style welfare reforms and the “findings” by one Mansel Aylward, who talks about “illness belief” and “malingering” of beneficiaries, and propagates the supposed “health benefits of work”, claiming paid work is “therapeutic”? Do you support Principal Health Advisor David Bratt (at WINZ / MSD) who likens benefit dependence to “drug dependence”? He got his job under your party’s last government!

    And why do you not make the following an election issue? On Public Address Michael Fletcher raises major questions about the lack of transparency in policy implementation and evaluation at MSD and WINZ, as the secrecy going on there is appalling:

    Labour must present their position on issues raised in the following forums and blogs:




    David Cunliffe, Sue Moroney and others in Labour, and also Jan Logie and others in the Green Party, we want answers and commitments soon, and assurances that you will REVERSE the draconian welfare reforms Key, English and Bennett forced through in 2012 to 2013, thanks!

    • Once was Tim 2.1

      That’s one of the main reasons I cannot give Labour my party vote this election after a lifetime of supporting them – another being an unequivocal commitment to dropping neo-liberal policy.
      They may or may not get an electorate vote – we’ll see. I’ll wait till 2017 (if they’re still around), but given the last 3rd term in which they chose to have a lay down and not continue to reverse much of the damage to this country in the Neshnool 90’s – to everything from the ‘social contract’, to the arts, to the continued corporatisation/destruction of the public service, I want proof they’re returning to their roots.

      • dimebag russell 2.1.1

        Get up off your arse and do some work in the party instead of waiting to be spoon fed. The NZLP is made up of people and you are missing.

        • phillip ure

          what’s ‘missing’ is some coherent/effective poverty-busting policies from labour/grns..

          ..(and not just aspirational-bullshit – that will be instantly shelved/tucked away in the ministerial-bmw glovebox…there to be forgotten..)

          ..and if they don’t deliver on any of these..

          ..both labour and the greens will hear the sound of marching-feet..

          ..as their respective party-components that care about matter thus..

          ..walk off to vote for the only party/vote that has such policies..

          ..(that you can believe they are sincere about..)

          ..in the hope/realisation the higher the internet/mana vote..

          ..the higher the chances for such real change..

        • Once was Tim

          At the moment, I prefer to assist elsewhere with those who already have stated policies. As I say, I want proof after having my vote taken for granted for too long. I’m already compromising by giving consideration to the electorate vote. Sorry DR, but it’s gone on for too bloody long!

          • Murray Olsen

            I get a bit tired of Labour people telling me I have to join and work inside the party to change things. Nah, not going to happen. I’d rather grow bamboo in my rectum. I’ll support movements that are working to change something, and do something on the ground. The last thing I want to do is push shit uphill in a basically neoliberal fanclub with a load of deluded followers who think they’ll get Labour back to its roots.

            Labour will not help those who need it the most. Therefore I will not help Labour. They might get my electorate vote, but that’s all.

        • adam

          But is it not true, that Labour have the highest membership since 1984? And that the majority of members feel, at the very least, neo-liberalism is a failing economic model? Why has the parliamentary wing clung so desperately, and policy been so aligned with to neo-liberalism if people make up the labour party, as you assert dimebag russell?

        • Awww

          Why would anyone passionate about welfare vote or spend any time working for red national?

    • “..After reading that, which seems to have been the one and only real, firm question about social security and welfare policy in the Q+A session with David..”

      (ahem..!..you mean of the ones that were answered..i presume..)

      “….i understand that you have yr own timetable of policy-release..(and i am not requesting any premature details)..

      ..but cd you assure us that labour will be releasing ‘poverty-busting’ policies in that timetable..?

      ..policies that will address the plights of the worst off..both children and adults..

      ..thank you..”

      (the four questions before this number five on the list of questions..were answered/addressed..

      ..as was the one after..which was about someone ‘pulling something out of their arse’..

      ..but this question was swerved around..

      ..and i did so try to make it both polite..and to the point..

      ..so make of that non-answer/ringing-silence on these issues from cunnliffe/labour..what you will..

      ..but i am not encouraged..)

      ..and all we have seen from logie/the greens so far..is green-tinged crocodile-tears/much-hand-wringing..

      ..all of which adds up to diddly-squat..to my mind..

      ..i do hope to be proved wrong..but i don’t think that will happen..eh..?

    • bad12 2.3

      Oh i am sure X that there will be some movement from Labour that addresses the Paula Bennett deforming of the system,(incidently the 3 categories now in place were first proposed by Steve Maharey as Minister),

      i would suggest that such changes, around just who sits within which category will not be announced by Labour as election policy,

      i would expect as was the case with the Clark Government that WINZ will be told to loosen the criteria surrounding the granting of special needs grants which in effect raises the income of some beneficiaries quite considerably if they become part of the furniture at the local office,

      i would further suggest that you are wasting your time and energy at this point in the electoral cycle complaining or demanding answers,

      Your energy would be far better spent choosing an electoral vehicle you believe is likely to deliver the best outcome for beneficiaries and then printing up some leaflets to be handed out at your local WINZ office in an attempt to get beneficiaries out voting in September…

      • xtasy 2.3.1

        “i would further suggest that you are wasting your time and energy at this point in the electoral cycle complaining or demanding answers,

        Your energy would be far better spent choosing an electoral vehicle you believe is likely to deliver the best outcome for beneficiaries and then printing up some leaflets to be handed out at your local WINZ office in an attempt to get beneficiaries out voting in September…”

        Thanks for your comment, bad12. You may well be right with the first above.

        As for the other suggestion, to be honest, I was leafleting and doing some talking and lobbying for the GP last election campaign, but the response by many potential voters out in the streets, especially young ones, was rather reserved and also indifferent.

        Also have I repeatedly been leafleting outside WINZ offices before, with moderate interest. Some clients were keen to learn more about what goes on, but most were not really prepared to talk or read, as they all are so disillusioned, a leaflet and some good talk will not change the views shaped by disappointments and neglect they have experienced over years. That is also the reason, that there has over recent years been such a low turnout at pickets or protest events.

        I think it is rather naive to expect the hundreds of thousands of non voters to suddenly take an interest in politics and voting, when they have for years given up on it, are totally disconnected, and need to be trained up with intensive political discourse and policy issues and options, to really understand what is going on, and what needs to be done. That is if they are open to that.

        The idea that a short, intensive social media campaign, leafleting, campaign door knocking and so will get people out and on our side is an outdated idea, as most in the public feel, they are suddenly only wanted as voters, when elections are due in a few weeks time. Most have very personal expectation, but do not trust any party anymore.

        That in essence is what Labour, but increasingly also Greens and other parties are up against, while Key and Nats get the pampering of 24/7 media attention, as being the ones in government, “doing things” (albeit badly and shockingly).

        It is exactly this arrogant attitude by Labour, to think they can suddenly shortly before an election drop some “carrots” or lollies in a scramble, to gain votes, that is NOT GOING TO WORK. Labour should have been door knocking and networking throughout the last few years, and done more, so should others. For the first time in years, I myself feel, I cannot really recommend ANY PARTY, to vote for, with full conviction and from my heart.

        Best of luck to those that have the strength and motivation to keep it all up.

    • freedom 2.4

      You are not wrong xtasy, an answer earlier, rather than later, would be very welcome. But when you are facing a Government with a long long history of stealing policy the public responds to, and face a media complicit in suppressing the policy hypocrisy such moves usually expose, I can understand why Labour are not leading the campaign with whatever policy changes they have planned.

      If this is the reason for the delay, it is a reason that makes some sense to me. This delay suggests to me what they have planned might actually be practical and supportive and worth protecting. That said, like hundreds of thousands of kiwis I really would love to know what the plan is before we enter the last month of the campaign, so I can properly weigh the options against the other parties. Help share them if I feel they are worthwhile. Maybe Labour can win back my vote with it.

      Till we see it though our daily reality continues to be one of boot stomping hardship where we are subjected to pointless obligations and unreasonable judgements that barely disguise the behind the hand whispers where the holier than tho insinuate not finding a job is somehow our fault.

      Truth is any changes on the ground would still be 6 months away. Today, there are no relevant jobs in my region I have not already applied for. Till 10/06, I have exactly 40 cents to my name, and bills due. Once I spend a few hours with various call centres I will no doubt be peckish. Good thing I like red-beans and rice because my pantry is not exactly overflowing and there is no way I am ever going back through the cavity search that is today’s foodgrant application.

      Kia kaha xtasy and all who live this life of less.

      • xtasy 2.4.1

        “Good thing I like red-beans and rice because my pantry is not exactly overflowing and there is no way I am ever going back through the cavity search that is today’s foodgrant application.”

        Haha, thanks for that comment.

        Yes, I have also learned to do something fancy with red beans, a few tomatoes, a bit of puree and humble veges, add that into some mince, fry and cook it up as Chili Con Carne or Spaghetti, and a good meal is made, that can last for days, some kept for further meals in the fridge.

        I am here serving as a constant reminder, so Labour – and other parties and their candidates – get the message, re what they need to think and act on in the social security area. It will be at their peril to ignore it, as letting us down yet again will NOT go down well.

        A constant prick in the side, ensuring we are not forgotten, is a measure that is needed.

        Like you, I remain hopeful there may be light at the end of a long, dark tunnel, and a sudden positive announcement at some time, not just for those with little kids and those fit to look for full- or part time jobs they can do.

    • Kaye 2.5

      “After reading that, which seems to have been the one and only real, firm question about social security and welfare policy in the Q+A session with David, I had to ask myself again, why are Labour leaving potential votes of say at least 100 to 200 thousand on benefits lie on the roadside, and why do they not deliver us honest answers and firm policy commitments, 11 weeks out from the general election?”

      Quite simple- they don’t want our votes. So let’s not vote for them.

    • David H 2.6

      And don’t forget the Lovely Christmas Present that Jenny and Ruth gave the Beneficiaries in the 90’s

  3. fisiani 3

    On telecanvassing it seems clear that people are reasonably content with their life and do not want to put it at risk. The lack of understanding of MMP is staggering and some people fail to appreciate that only a Party Vote for National will produce a strong stable government led by John Key that is working for New Zealand. It takes me up to three minutes to convince swing voters. Any advice on how I can get my conversion rate up to the calling room average of 6/hr. We work 4 hours a day with 20 callers, 80 x20 x 6 x 4 equates to another 3 MP’s.

    • Once was Tim 3.1

      ” It takes me up to three minutes to convince swing voters. ”
      That’s after you’ve taken your morning prayers and daily programming with Jamie Lee eh?
      … oops, I just broke my own rule of not feeding the pigeons

      • phillip ure 3.1.1

        “..after you’ve taken your morning prayers and daily programming with Jamie Lee..”

        ..i wonder if they sing ‘the star-spangled-banner’..?

        ..chant ‘usa..!..usa..!’..just to get all fired-up/primed..?

    • xtasy 3.2

      With a largely “collaborating” and biased mainstream media so busy misinforming the wider, ill informed public, this useless and rotten, self serving government gets away with lies and even murder (see recent revelations about SAS involvement in Afghanistan)!

      Listening to “enemy” radio broadcasts at times, like Radio Live in the late morning and late afternoon, I know what bullshit is fed into people’s minds 24/7.

      Tom Fruean did in his daily “Report” about what happened in Parliament yesterday (paid for by the Office of the Clerk!) only go on about Trevor Mallard’s tongue in cheek “Moa policy” idea, and what ministers had to say to that during question time. This happens ALL the time, and people do not learn about real questions and answers or policies.

      So consequently the uninformed hear this and shape a dim view of what goes on in NZ politics, and Key and Nats thrive on such created sad “realities” and rubbish, like rats on rotting food and so in the sewer. Ill informed and dumbed down make disinterested potential voters who will not bother.

      Fisiani and like minded love it, as it suits their agenda. Pride and decorate yourselves with endless ignorance and manipulations, the truth will be reported here and on the Daily Blog and in a few other places!

    • bad12 3.3

      You mean it takes 3 minutes for them to realize what they have on the other end of the phone in the form of you and most being to polite to just tell you to fuck off quickly agree with you in order not to be subjected to more of your drivel…

    • Lanthanide 3.4

      “equates to another 3 MP’s.”

      Good job fisi, if you keep it up at that rate, National will be sure to get 110% of the party vote.

    • Clemgeopin 3.5

      Here the advice you are seeking to help increase your ‘conversion’ rate.

      This is all you need to do. Just introduce yourself as:

      ‘I am Fisi, from hashtag teamKey! Come hither into our dark side, now!’

      Those 13 memorable words alone will convince people to get ‘converted’ in about 3 seconds flat. Trust me!

      Come to think of it, at that rate…..

      In 1 hour, you should get approximately 1,200 converts.

      That would give you,

      80 x20 x 1,200 x 4 equates to another extra 600 MP’s!

      Cool bananas! You are welcome!

    • McFlock 3.6

      What I can’t figure out, fisihaw-haw, is if you’re so good at persuading taxi drivers and people in their homes that national aren’t evil lying parasites sucking the soul of the nation, why do you make such a shit job of it here?

      Maybe your voice is hypnotic, like the legendary Sirens whose song tormented sailors and dragged them to their doom…

      • freedom 3.6.1

        Maybe it’s his broad shoulders McFlock? His chiselled jaw and those steely piercing eyes that cause women and men alike to swoon and once rendered weak of will, submit to his wisdom ?

  4. mickysavage 4

    NBR is reporting that Slater has been given a pile of money to run a new website with ten staff. The funder, Tony Lentino, is apparently doing this because he is frustrated with the quality of NZ journalism. I can understand that but this venture will only make things worse …

    The left can only dream at getting the same sort of resources.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

      Also a major investor in Mega, has a seat on the board.

    • dimebag russell 4.2

      the left does not need that sort of stuff. What we need is micropulse radio stations that can be bought for less than $5 grand each and are line of sight. They go 24 hours A DAY. Play the right sort of music and the networked radio staions will be creamed.
      Wise up fast. Its all about money and unless the NZLP gets the idea they have to spend some then we will be forever lost.

      • BM 4.2.1

        And where will this money come from?

      • Colonial Viper 4.2.2

        Wise up fast. Its all about money and unless the NZLP gets the idea they have to spend some then we will be forever lost.

        Uh, what’s left leaning media channels got to do with the NZLP? I think we need a far broader range of left views and debate than a mainstream political party can currently provide in terms of public discussion.

        The radio station idea is a good one, it should be live streaming with podcasts, also video interviews put up on Youtube etc. That the Left finds it so difficult to put together a budget of say $250K pa to do something like this is a bit disheartening when you consider that hundreds of millions of dollars of Auckland real estate change hands every week.

      • Lanthanide 4.2.3

        I really wonder about all these fantasies of micro radio stations.

        People listen to the commercial radio because of the personalities, content and constant cash give-away and prizes. No one is going to listen to a radio station that goes on about politics and plays music.

      • greywarbler 4.2.4

        @dimebag r
        Sounds good. But have you just heard about them from overseas, from boffins, or know about these line of sight radios? So how do these work? Top of a hill to top of a high building?

        I was part of getting a local one in Nelson when Labour made some radio space available for community radio, and we had to get our system up on a pylon. Are new ones needed? There are already community stations probably interested in getting more input.

        Here’s a list of community stations – they would probably be interested in doing more if there was some money of which they are usually short.

        Map of New Zealand

        Planet FM (Auckland)
        Free FM (Waikato)
        Radio Kidnappers (Hawkes Bay)
        Access Radio Taranaki
        Access Manawatu
        Coast Access FM (Kapiti/Horowhenua)
        Arrow FM (Wairarapa)
        Wellington Access Radio
        Fresh FM (Nelson/Tasman Region)
        Plains FM 96.9 (Christchurch)
        Otago Access Radio (Dunedin)
        Radio Southland

    • Tracey 4.3

      the question is lack of quality journalism and the answer is Slater???? God help us all…

      • phillip ure 4.3.1

        there is always fucken whoar..eh..?

        ..40-50 progressive local/international news-stories/links/commentaries/analysis-pieces..each/every fucken day..eh..?

        ..and an archive/searchengine of over 90,000 such stories/links..

        ..stop the handwringing..and open yr eyes..

        ..to what is right under yr bloody-noses..

        (so far this morn..full local-coverage..and 16 stories/links from progressive international sources..

        ..and i’m only getting started..

        ..the left is so shit at supporting each other…)

        • Lanthanide

          And how many readers?

          • bad12

            Phillips ”Attention Whore” has absolutely millions of viewers don’t you know…

            • phillip ure

              sneer on fuckhead..!

              ..and then show me another nz site that is on the best-sites-list of over 20,000 foreign websites..(source:..zeald-audit..)

              • Lanthanide

                Pity you can’t just answer the question I asked.

                • Te Reo Putake

                  How many readers? Zero? It’s unreadable. But it probably gets hits in the same way whaleoil does, by catering to bots.

                  As I’ve said before, Phil has an absolute contempt for potential readers there and here which he shows by way of his wretched, retching style of writing. Phil posts, but he doesn’t communicate. It’s almost like he’s stoned and incapable of carrying on a normal conversation … oh, wait.

                • greywarbler

                  Pity you just take the piss about whoar.

                  phillip – ..the left is so shit at supporting each other…
                  Lanthanide – And how many readers?

                  (Just confirming phillip’s point. And underlying is the true poppy syndrome. The fact that only some people are allowed to put forward ideas without being beheaded by ideas vandals, and the flowers of thought are wasted. Ideas often get squashed like ants or by apathy. Yawn – this hasn’t come from the approved inner circle so we aren’t interested.)

                  • McFlock

                    I’d love it if phil put forward a coherent, fully-considered idea that wasn’t largely gibberish.

                    If he can deal with HTML/CSS coding (syntactically much less forgiving than English), he can create a legible comment.

                  • Lanthanide

                    How is asking how many readers a site has “taking the piss”?

                    phillip put his site up as the answer to micky lamenting that the left don’t get fully resourced alternative media opportunities like the right seem to. Seems relevant to ask how many readers his site gets, so we can evaluate his claim.

                    I presume you say I am taking the piss, because you know that actually whoar has bugger-all readers. Unfortunately until phillip actually tells us, we really can’t know for sure how many readers it has, but his silence on this topic is suggestive.

        • The Al1en

          Yeah, but you’re as impartial and credible as slater.

          • bad12

            Lolz, and as abusive as well, poor deranged Phillis believes He is telling millions how to think, if He had any readership base as what He has made claim to having in previous discussions about ”Attention Whore” he would by now be rolling in the filthy lucre,(another aspect of ”Attention Whore previously discussed)…

            • The Al1en

              Using Philip’s style and logic, it’s conclusive proof that all vegans are nasty with it arsehats, whereas I, an omnivore, are neither. 😉

          • Nakiman

            “Yeah, but you’re as impartial and credible as slater.”
            That’s a joke, Seriously do you think phills blog could win best blog at the media awards.
            All of the blogs are biased and bumber bradburys frothing sewer would be the worst.

            • The Al1en

              “That’s a joke, Seriously do you think phills blog could win best blog at the media awards.”

              If both blogs were printed on paper, I wouldn’t wipe my arse with either.

        • BM

          The website link in your name is broken.
          Too many of those silly dots you put on each line.

          • phillip ure

            no i didn’t know that..maybe the website admin cd fix that..?

            ..or should i get even more paranoid..?

            • BM

              Just change it yourself where you write comments.
              Take off the dots at the end of the URL in the website field.

              • test..

                ..chrs bm..

                (i owe you one..i’ll ask them not to take so much of yr money off you..)

                ..and aren’t labour just bleeding the rich..with their tax-raise..(which kicks in at $150,000)..?

                ..you realise what that means for someone on $160,000..?..(just above an mp’s income..they do look after their own.eh..?..)

                ..that ‘poor’ rich person will have to pay an extra $6 per wk..(!)

                ..oh..!..the humanity..!..won’t somebody think of the rich..?’..)

            • bad12

              Try toking on less cones per day and the paranoia might disappear, if it doesn’t then you might begin to suspect a disease of the mind has responsibility for such paranoia…

              • it’s not imagined..

                ..as far as the standard is concerned..whoar has never existed..

                ..ditto with daily blog..

                (tho’..funny story there..for a little while they did a daily blog-roundup..

                ..and whoever did that was fullsome in their praise for what i do…

                ..but that roundup didn’t last for long..

                ..and that has been about it..)

                ..and that’s not ‘paranoia’..that’s fact..

                ..like i said..the left are real shit at supporting each other..

                ..(something the right does well..)

                ..this is nothing new/not starting with me/whoar..

                ..this is an historical-pattern in/with the left..

                ..(that life of brian..’we’re not the fucken palestinian liberation movement..!..we’re the fucken ‘liberation movement for the liberation of palestine-movement..!’..they’re fucken wankers!.’

                ..is actually about the left in nz..)

                • The Al1en

                  “like i said..the left are real sit at suporting each other..”

                  If by sit you mean sh!t, then your smear campaign against the Greens and Labour reeks of it.

                  • ‘smear-campaign’..

                    ..show me one thing i have said that is not fact/fair-commentary..?

                    ..we have a labour party (who duck/weave/avoid around any poverty-questions)..seeming little different from their last lamentable outing..

                    ..and we have a green party so jonesing to be ministers with them..

                    ..that all/any bottom-lines have been thrown out the window/stuck down the back of the filing-cabinet..

                    ..and i should just keep fucken schtum about that..?


                    • The Al1en

                      “show me one thing i have said that is not fact/fair”

                      You mean just today? Logie’s croc tears and the continuing boo hoo because DC didn’t answer your question.

                      “i should just keep fucken schtum”

                      First thing I’ve read I agree with.

                • bad12

                  Tsk tsk Phillis, this particular rant smacks of an attempt to ”tell” those who manage both the Standard and the Daily Blog how they should run their web-sites,

                  What’s paranoia provoking about either site not linking to your’s Phillip, your propensity to fly off into out-right abuse and the absurd ‘style’ of your plagarized …from… Cummings would have plenty after having de-cyphered the content wondering why they would bother to continually subject themselves to it…

                  • greywarbler

                    Did you ever do an extra-mural course on ‘needling’ bad 12? Is it something that you would put on your CV if you bothered with one, and is that why you practise on phillip? Practise makes perfect perhaps.

                    • bad12

                      No, greywarbler, if you see any ”needling” in my comments, perhaps it is just how you ”see” things, or, if real and not imagined by you, a natural reaction to Phillis’s propensity to spray utter crap into the conversation…

                • Stuart Munro

                  What the right do is logrolling. They do it for money – a good habit-former for them – but it gets them in trouble when they change contexts – eg Collins/Oravida.

                • freedom

                  ..as far as the standard is concerned..whoar has never existed..

                  ..ditto with daily blog..

                  So when I casually glance to the right hand side of The Standard pages every visit and see The Daily Blog having its very own tab in the feeds box, I am imagining it?

                  You will find it right there beside the tab for Scoop.

                  Honestly Phillip, sometimes you need to turn your head to see what you are missing.

                  Abuse me however you like, but taking a break from the boards for a few days may do you a world of good.

                  • daily blog also ignores whoar..not standard ignoring db..


                    • freedom

                      Thankyou for the clarification Phillip, but you must be aware it is just one of many recent examples where your delivery is less than clear in its intention and you and others have to waste words explaining what you originally failed to.

                      I still think you would benefit from a few days of blog respite, but that is just an opinion (and yes, everyone has one of those too )

                    • way to project/transfer yr basic-mistake..!

                      ..own it..!


                    • freedom

                      ok Phillip, whatever gets you through the day.

                      I won’t be bothering you again.

        • TheContrarian

          Whoar is a hopeless mess

          • phillip ure

            minimalist..devoid of bells and whistles..

            ..but ‘messy’ isn’t a way i’d describe it..

            ..a simple-scrolling gives/shows all that is on offer..

            ..care to quantify..?

            • TheContrarian

              Yeah it’s is a hopeless mess written in your fucked up short hand

              • bit anal about yr grammer/punctuation there..eh..?

                ..and contrarian…i am actually doing what yr name just implies..eh..?

                ..so you are contrarian in name only then..?


                ..you’re funny..!

              • greywarbler

                @ The Contrarian
                I like someone who has the integrity claimed in their brand.

        • The Lone Haranguer

          Quote “the left is so shit at supporting each other…” Philip Ure

          So why on earth would you think that the famously missing 800,000 voters from last time, would think that the left, lead by the NZLP team could possibly run a functioning Government if by pure chance, they got 50.5% of the vote on 20 September?

          As each week goes by, the left looks worse than the week before – and my measure is reading what its supporters have to say on here. You lot are unified in your hatred of the Nats, but I cant see any unity in anything else.

          For the country’s sake, I hope I am wrong.

    • Puckish Rogue 4.4


      If you want the other side of the story

      “The left can only dream at getting the same sort of resources.”

      • Produce something that people want and are willing to pay for
      • bad12 4.4.1

        i predict, Blubber boy’s latest venture will have all the grand success that ”its” stint as the Editor of the truth had,

        Giving that thing even more oxygen is entirely suggestive that indeed the loonies have taken over the assylum…

        • McFlock

          maybe, but they merely give him large cheques to release propaganda, not for it to be read.

          With any luck he’ll get his arse sued or break the law again.

        • Tracey

          itt is probably intended as a backdoor campaigning tool, having sought qc opinions on how to exploit a loophole of course.

      • Murray Olsen 4.4.2

        Someone’s got money to burn. The only reason I can imagine to invest money in Whalespew would be for the sheer sadistic delight of seeing him crash and burn. And this is what will happen, as sure as the sun will be up tomorrow.

      • Descendant Of Sssmith 4.4.3

        Produce something that those who wish to rule over (work to death, sell shit to, denigrate, blame, rent properties to) people want and are willing to pay for

    • Draco T Bastard 4.5

      The left can only dream at getting the same sort of resources.

      Only if we keep whinging about it. I’ve already shown how Labour alone could have a $7.8 million dollar per year income. More than enough to fund 10 dedicated journalists and a web site.

      The problem seems to be that the political parties of the left aren’t willing to do what’s needed and require a $5/wk membership fee. Wouldn’t need to go after the big donors then either.

  5. Lanthanide 5

    Looks like politicheck is dead: http://www.politicheck.org.nz/

    Didn’t last long, did it? Last update on June 11 which actually appears to be a blog post by Pete George (no other posts are signed by the author/editor), and the previous one to that was on May 23rd.

    Nevermind we’ve just had the perfect little story for them to stake their claim in cleaning up the smear against Labour over Liu, but not nary a peep from them.

    • Paupial 5.1


      What else do you expect of any project with which PG is involved? He even had me avoiding TS for a while, a couple of months back; because I couldn’t be bothered scrolling past his interminable drivel. Fortunately, it does seem that his drivel has been terminated.

    • bad12 5.2

      Lolz it was pretty much dead in the water upon the appointment of 🙄 who then began to whore for serfs to do the work required to make the site work presumably so that 🙄 could sit at the apex of the magic triangle making all the ‘big decisions’ like the lord and master His delusion has Him thinking He is…

    • millsy 5.3

      I would be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt and suggest that those who run it just dont have the time to keep updating it and are caught up with other commitments.

      Ive been looking at doing a few online projects myself, but a whole lot of other commitments (not prepared to elaborate), have taken up most of my time.

      So it would be understandable.

      And in case anyone is wondering, PG posts at Public Address now, driving them crazy..

  6. Paupial 6

    This is interesting:

    Police are investigating after bullet holes were found in the front window of Mana Leader Hone Harawira’s electorate office… At least two shots were fired through the front window of the office last Thursday night.

    Harwaira said he believed it was a targeted and personal attack, though he had no idea who might have been behind it. “It is a worry, I get criticism, I get threats and I get death threats, but when people start taking shots at you and your office it’s a whole different ball game,”…

    “It’s not like you could make a mistake between my office and the bush. It’s surrounded by a number of other houses and just around the corner is an early childhood centre as well.”


    I doubt it’s something that Kelvin Davis or Labour had a hand in (unless there are some rogue volunteers with more enthusiasm than sense). But someone is clearly feeling threatened by the prospect of an IMP-supported progressive government. Can’t help thinking that they picked the wrong target though; Harawira has his faults, but lack of courage is not one of them.

    • bad12 6.1

      Yeah i seen that on my TeeVee the other night, have been waiting for NzJackson to re-appear here at the Standard for a Q and A about the involvement or not of Dearlove supporters in the attack…

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2

      First the death threats, then the bullets. What’s next in the right wing hate-crime handbook?

      • Roflcopter 6.2.1

        Oh, so it’s a right-winger?

        Jeez you’re a fuckwit.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          A Titford sympathiser, for example.

          Hardly beyond the realms of possibility: I don’t see too many lefties getting all bent out of shape about Hone.

        • phillip ure

          nah..!..it’s probably a leftie..eh..?

          ..get thee to a mirror..fuckwit..!

          ..and/or..w.t.f. r u smoking..?

    • Chooky 6.3

      @Paupail…Yes Media Double Standards in treatment of John Key candle lit vigil and bullets for New Zealand Maori social welfare activist and Springbok protester Hone Harawira ( a demonstration of media racist and fascist values?)

      ‘Hone Harawira’s electorate office shot at – mainstream media indifferent’

      By Martyn Bradbury / July 2, 2014

      When you consider all the criticism that erupted over a candle lit vigil outside Key’s house for his support of civilian deaths via drone strikes, you would expect there to be a similar outcry over someone shooting at Hone Harawira’s electorate office…..

      The double standards are extraordinary. You would think a political leader having his electorate office shot at would be massive news – apparently not if that political leader is Hone Harawira

      If someone had fired shots at Key’s electorate office the media would be giving 24/7 live coverage of the bullet holes. It happens to Hone and barely a whisper.

      See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/07/02/hone-harawiras-electorate-office-shot-at-mainstream-media-indifferent/#sthash.F2uApHs1.dpuf

      • TheContrarian 6.3.2

        Didn’t one of Bombers right hand men throw an axe through Helen Clark’s office window once?

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          A one-time ACT member and current Maori Party supporter, according to Wikipedia.

        • Pasupial


          Tim Selwyn threw an axe through then PM Clark’s window in protest against the seabed and foreshore bill. He then got sent to prison for; wilful damage, sedition and pulling a Garrett (what is it about Act people and stealing dead childen’s identities anyway? Was there a how-to seminar or did they just all read the same book?). Bomber took over his Tumeke blog while Selwyn was in prison, and stayed on until he set up TDB.

          It’ll be interesting to see whether the police pursue the perpetrators of this incident with the same zeal.

      • Pasupial 6.3.3


        Hmm, misspelled my own nom de clave – must have been low on caffeine! But then again I’m just a solo commenter, Stuff had; “Harwaira, and they’re supposed to be a reputable new-source with editors and everything.

        • Chooky

          yes i am a terrible speller…so have to check everything…hence my checking resulted in my changing your name from what I thought to your misspelling… lol

  7. One Anonymous Bloke 7

    When investigating political terrorism always be sure to ignore evidence of right wing hate crimes.

    • Murray Olsen 7.1

      Ngati poaka saying it was a slug gun. Something doesn’t smell right here. There are plenty of pig hunters up around Kaitaia and they know the difference between bullets and slugs.

  8. greywarbler 8

    This should be a good item. About us and whether we are a mini US or a Chinese ally or a conjuror practising juggling while standing on a tightrope.

    8:12 am Sunday 6 July: Insight: NZ’s tiptoe relationship with the US and China

    The Prime Minister, John Key’recent trip to New York was focused on lobbying permanent ambassadors at the United Nations to support New Zealand’s bid for a non-permanent seat on the Security Council in 2015/1.New Zealand has been selling itself as a sensible and moderate nation that prides itself on taking an independent view.

    But the main reason for John Key’s visit to the United States was to spend time with the President , Barack Obama, reinforcing Wellington’s warming relationship with Washington.
    America’s so-called “rebalance” towards the Asia-Pacific region, a policy thought to be prompted by the rising presence of China in the region. But could that also put NZ in a difficult position as it tries to balance its important relationships with both the US and China?

    Radio New Zealand Political reporter, Chris Bramwell, travelled with Mr Key to the US and explores how difficult that balancing act might be.

    • Murray Olsen 8.1

      Independent view? Maybe we were headed in that direction before Key came along, but now we wait for Washington’s instructions as to what our independent views are. Having us on the Security Council would be a complete waste of time at the moment. Just give the US and A two votes.

  9. halfcrown 9

    And now for something completely different. A little light relief and humour.

    The winter has finally arrived with very cold weather. The following statement can be read one of two ways

    Winter draws on. or

    Winter drawers on.

    • ianmac 9.1

      halfcrown. About 60 years ago on 3ZB radio the announcer of the day started to read an advertisement for some item: “Ladies!Winter drawers on….” He collapsed into hysterical laughter. Silence. Tries again: “Ladies! Winter drawers on….” Collapsed into hysteria again. Music starts playing.
      This lapse for the time was big news and becomes a radio Blooper. The announcer was reprimanded or maybe fired?

      • halfcrown 9.1.1

        Thanks for that Ianmac It was a saying of my father-in-law, one of the finest people I had the privilege to know. No doubt that is where he got it from.

        I do admire people who have a great command of the English language and can come up with these witty two meaning sayings. A gift I wish I had.

        I remember living in London in the sixties there was a weekly satire programme run by David Frost called “That Was The Week That Was

        Incidentally these were the days when we had real journalist and commentators that would take ANY politician to task irrespective of their political colour.

        The then conservative party appointed a Lord Home as the PM . It was stated in the press that Lord Home’s name was pronounced as Lord Hume.

        Frost was on to this immediately, and on his next programme said “If we are going to pronounce an “O” as a “U” then I suppose we should pronounce U’s as O’s” That being the case the following statement can be read one of two ways

        Lord Home is in bed with flu. Or,

        Lord Hume is in bed with flo.

        That has always made me laugh.

        • freedom

          Do you recall At Last the 1948 Show and I’m Sorry I’ll Read That Again? I was a babe in arms when these gems emerged but thanks to being at the younger end of the family line I was pretty much raised on their humour. Alongside the Goons of course.

          Without such treasure we would never have been delivered Q, The Goodies or Python. If you want a great trip down memory lane I heartily recommend From Fringe to Flying Circus.
          A fantastic book full of script-bites and insight, to the mayhem and the manipulations.

          All I can say in closing is … Spot!

          • halfcrown

            Thanks for that Freedom. I will get that book. I will see if I can download an ePUB of it.
            Yes I do remember the 1948 show and I’m Sorry I’ll Read that again.. Beginning to show my age here. and I agree with you without them the likes of the The Goodies or Python would never existed
            You must also remember then we had magazines like the Punch which in the 70’s had writers like a guy called Coren I think, can’t remember his first name. He had a hilarious column as a regular item taking the piss out of Idi Amin called “From Our Correspondent In Uganda
            It has been said that Idi Amin stated when he finally invaded and beat Britain, Coren was going to be the first to be hanged.
            Good days seeing the pommie sense of humour at it’s best.

            • Te Reo Putake

              Alan Coren? I think he edited Punch for a while.

              Private Eye is always consistently good value and surprisingly affordable via email. https://privateeye.subscribeonline.co.uk/

              A lot of the old shows get played on the BBC. Hancock and the Goons every week, ISIRTA, Steptoe etc quite regularly during the year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4extra/programmes/genres/comedy/current

              You can get them via the BBC website or TuneIn.

              • halfcrown

                What a great constructive day

                Once again thanks but to TRP this time. I forgot about Private Eye which I used to get now and then. Thanks for the website, I was aware of the BBC one but not Private Eye.
                I think I might subscribe to it and I have bookmarked it for future reference.

                Once again thank you all for your suggestions.

                • Te Reo Putake

                  Cheers, halfcrown. PE is available by airmail, not email as I wrote. D’oh! Arrives about 3 or days after hitting the shops in the UK.

                  I gather it’s now the biggest selling news mag in Britain, which is long way from its humble gestetner’d beginnings. I recently had a beer in the Coach and Horses, Soho, the notorious pub where Cook and the PE staff used to hang out. Some great photos from the heydays of the mag on the walls.

                  I also recommend the PE covers site, which never fails to amuse. http://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers.php

                  And if you want a further recommendation, the four part series ‘Why Bother?’ is easily found. It’s Peter Cook being interviewed by Chris Morris, but in the guise of Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling. And there’s also Cookie and Clive Anderson here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjE7XlYIAIY

              • David H

                Damn it TRP now I’ll spend hours watching Steptoe. But I do like Open All Hours I have all of it, and the special that David Jason did a couple of years ago, which was brilliant.

          • ianmac

            Recent comments from those who were in the Goon Show or Python and so on, say they got their programs on air because either the bosses didn’t know just what the programs were going to be, or that the bosses were willing to take a risk. But today, in NZ, nail everything down, avoid risk, and stick to the safe predictable programs. (Then wait till the audience has all gone somewhere else.)

  10. greywarbler 10

    Old newspapers used for wrapping with good information. Another reason not to go totally on-line. A few people, thoughtful and dedicated to good results, can achieve change that is in the public good.

    Daphne Steele born 1928, in 1990 joined a local walking group and shared concerns about the management of escalating subdivison on the Kapiti Coast. Here is part of an obituary from the dompost 7/Dec/2013 about her work with a small group of dedicated older women in saving their Kapiti coastline from rampant development
    that would have swallowed protective sand dunes and wetlands.

    At the age of 62, when most people are thinking about retiring, Daphne Steele launched a career as an environmental campaigner fighting and winning legal battles to safeguard natural landscape features on the Kapiti Coast.

    Co-founder of Kapiti Environmental Action, Mrs Steele dedicated 20 years to research, leading the group’s planning section and winning seven court cases against the Kapiti Coast District Council. She and two fellow white-haired KEA members, supported by lawyers and expert witnesses, might have looked like an insignificant group of small elderly women when they confronted the council on planning issues but, after winning several court cases, their carefully worded submissions were received with hushed respect…

    Her friend Mrs Rowland attributed some of their success to working on ‘Quaker lines’ – non confrontational, focusing on issues, not personalities, thorough research and a holistic approach.

    Note: Dompost were in Dec 2013 running A Life Story of NZs who helped to shape their community and invite you ‘if you know of someone whose story should be told’ to email obituaries@dompost.co.nz

  11. bad12 11

    Ups to Maori Television who this election plan to broadcast polling from within all the Maori electorates leading into the election,

    As yet they have not said specific programs where we can view the results so as to attempt to ascertain the fortunes of the various contestants in the 7 Maori electorates,

    Hopefully Native Affairs has full coverage…

    Edit: last nights ‘Media Take’ while given a small ok here for the first attempt, if it is to become a ‘must watch’ needs to be far more robust in its attention upon the media with a critique of ‘bias’ in the various arms of media especially important leading into the election…

  12. vto 12

    Oh great, just what we want, a whole bunch of Wellingtoness …..


  13. Pete 13


    This is a hip pocket issue, particularly at lower decile schools. Parents who are cajoled into paying school donations would be pleased with this. Clever move from Labour.

    • amirite 13.1

      Pete, you may find that contrary to popular belief, most non-payers of school fees are well-off people who can afford it and who publicly whinge the loudest. I remember when my older child started her first year at the local Decile 1 primary and the long queue of predominantly PI parents waiting to pay the fees.

      • Pete 13.1.1

        I don’t doubt that. Pasifika communities have a reputation for generosity when it comes to things like tithes and remittances. And they can also suffer from predatory pay-day loans and other unethical practices when it comes to meeting these obligations. I think Labour’s plan is a very good way of making things a little easier for people.

        • Te Reo Putake

          Yep, and a helping hand to schools who don’t want to make these charges anyway.

  14. Weepu's beard 14

    McCully blaming his ministry for the “confusion” over who said what, when. This has been standard practice for this government. Any screw ups are firmly the fault of public service officials. Meat on Chinese wharves, Novopay, Oravida meetings, and now this.

    Someone needs to make more of the link between these events and the restructuring which has gone on willy-nilly over the last 6 years.

    • northshoreguynz 14.1

      Maybe as punishment McCully has to go list only, thus parachuting in, (probably literally, great promo shot) Colin Craig!

      • Weepu's beard 14.1.1

        Yep, it has lined up rather nicely. Funny that.

        A lot of people in East Coast Bays do not like Colin Craig though.

        • phillip ure

          if key does that deal with craig..i think it will hurt him more than help him..

          ..there will be some of nationals’ soft-vote who won’t want to have a bar of a moon-landing-denier/chem-tails-conspiracy-theorist/believer the world is 10,000 yrs old..

          ..and i see them dividing up between going back to labour..to the greens..or to the internet party..

  15. Dramaticus 15

    Mr Key AND HIS ROCK STAR / election/ economy needs a song
    This might suit
    Hes AN OLD CON WHO BEEN AWAY now he thinks hes back to stay
    Have you heard the news thats going around
    Hes turning our country up side down
    Fill in the rest as you see fit

  16. Tracey 16

    I see mr key has made an annoucement about family violence. At first i thought it meant he had killed mccully in a fit of pique but it is, surprisingly serious.

    He said
    “I would like to thank Ministers Judith Collins, Anne Tolley and Tariana Turia for leading the work to foster a long-term change in behaviour, and to protect people from the misery of violence in the home,” says Mr Key. ”

    does he mean like mr williamson tried to protect mr liu from the misery of violence in the home?

    In the face of this govts attitude toward an attempted rape, the last two paragraphs would be funny if not so sad…


  17. Te Reo Putake 17

    Sad to hear of the death of Dave Feickert. Dave worked tirelessly to improve safety standards in mining in the UK, China and Australasia. He was appalled at the lapses that led to the Pike River disaster and, as he says in this clip (from 2.40) was embarrassed to have to explain to Chinese miners just how bad things were in NZ.


    He was a lifelong supporter of unions and a regular in the media. His analysis of the ’84 miners’ strike is well worth a read:


    • Tracey 17.1

      thanks for posting this.

      It is telling that our PM considers his worst year in office wasnt the year 29 people died in a badly run mine, or the first chchch earthquake struck, or even the following year when 110 died and thousands of lives were shattered.

  18. minarch 18

    Legal Pot in the US Is Crippling Mexican Cartels


    cartels and their farmers complain that marijuana legalization is hurting their business. And some reports could suggest that the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) is more interested in helping to protect the Mexican cartels’ hold on the pot trade than in letting it dissipate.

  19. bad12 19

    Take a bow David Cunliffe, it is about time you stopped turning the other cheek to the insults of the Prime Minister,

    In the House today, the Prime Minister labeled Cunliffe ”tricky David Cunliffe” once to often getting a bite from Cunliffe that had the PM looking like He had swallowed His tongue,

    ”Can Slippery John” began David Cunliffe in His follow up question,

    Points to Cunliffe, and, my view is he might as well simply address the Liar in Chief as Slippery the Prime Minister to save any confusion…

    • Te Reo Putake 20.1

      Little change!?! Nats down 1.5%, NZF back in play and Labour undamaged despite the most vicious smear attack since Muldoon’s dancing cossacks is a fantastic result!

      ps, another poll, another cock up from Roy:

      “At the 2011 New Zealand Election National won every regional seat in New Zealand bar West Coast Tasman.”

      • karol 20.1.1

        1.5% is likely to be within margin of error. Means little in the overall scheme of things.

  20. ianmac 21

    “Today’s New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll shows a fall in support for National (48%, down 1.5%) but National are still well ahead of a potential Labour/Greens alliance (40%, unchanged).

    Support for Key’s Coalition partners has raised slightly overall with the Maori Party 1.5% (up 0.5%), Act NZ (1%, up 0.5%) and United Future 0% (unchanged).

    Support for the Labour Party is unchanged at 28%, the Greens are unchanged at 12%, New Zealand First is 5.5% (up 1.5%) and the Internet-Mana Party alliance is at 2.5% (unchanged). Support for the Conservative Party of NZ is 1% (down 0.5%) and support for Independent/ Others is 0.5% (down 0.5%).

    Today’s poll shows that despite allegations concerning Labour Leader David Cunliffe’s conduct in relation to Chinese businessman Donghua Liu in recent weeks, the controversy hasn’t negatively impacted on Labour support.”

    All upwards from here!

    PS: I didn’t add the graphs. How did that happen???
    PPS Now they have gone!

    [lprent: I added them (I often do when I see a link to something interesting). Drat where have they gone? Oh you edited and because you can’t ‘add’ them, the system removed them. Replacing. ]

    • ianmac 21.1

      In the Roy Morgan notes:
      ““If a New Zealand Election were held today which party would receive your party vote?”

      “This latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll on voting intention was conducted by telephone – both landline and mobile telephone, with a NZ wide cross-section of 817 electors from June 16-29, 2014. Of all electors surveyed 5.5% (up 0.5%) didn’t name a party.”

    • lprent 21.2

      Date of the polling was 16th-29th of June.

      The weighting of canvassing would have been towards the first part of the sampling period. According to me and the list of posts, this poll would have largely only picked up the start of the saga – the proforma electorate letter.

      The pathetic Liu “signed statement” smear with its tragic reporting by the NZ Herald happened on the 22nd. The follow up explanatory letter with its even more tragic lack of details happened on 24th?

      I don’t think that this poll has much of the Donghua Liu “scandal” in it yet – Roy Morgan’s lousy analysis strikes again.

      • Clemgeopin 21.2.1

        I agree. I am inclined to take a slightly optimistic view of this poll actually.

        What struck me is that though Labour support is still lower than what I would like, (35 plus), it is actually National that has lost 1.5% (nearly 2%) of support while Labour has held its support! That IS a good sign under the circumstances. 48% to 40% will only need a swing of about 4% in our favour to even things out. Anything over that is what is crucial. Two to three months is quite a long time in politics when a mere 24 hours can alter perceptions. The abysmal butt covering/distancing/passing the buck episode by Key and McCully in this shocking burglary/rape diplomatic episode unearthed today is just one such example.

        Labour, while addressing any planned potential mud slinging, from what Key has said he keeps in his ‘top draws’, by the National dirty tricks spin machine, shouldn’t get bogged down in it and instead, must primarily concentrate on our policies, vision and principles.

        Remains to be seen what the impact of Mr Cunliffe’s major speech and any announced policies will be after this week’s Labour Party Congress in Wellington.

        I think the next set of five to six polls will begin to change, hopefully in a favourable way for the three progressive parties, Labour, Greens and the InternetMana alliance.

        Without Key’s spoon feeding of political rancid honey and adulterated Oravida milk to ACT, UF and the CONS, National is kaput. And without their smiling cult poster head, Hash-Key, Nats are nothing but naught! That is as clear as the mud they try to throw at Cunliffe and Labour.


        • Chooky

          +100 hope so….lets hope Nactional goes into a spin it cant get of ….and freefall

  21. Clemgeopin 22

    Back Benches,
    Wednesday 10:50PM
    Tonight’s MP panel debate the necessity of National’s proposed $212M upgrade to regional roads. Plus, a measles outbreak has Wallace and Damian questioning the need for mandatory immunisations. PGR

    • Chooky 22.1

      God made the measles….let the measles run wild…weird how immunised kids keep getting measles…where is McFlock ?

      • McFlock 22.1.1

        God allegedly made satan too.

        Weird how the incidence rate of measles in un- or under-immunised people is dozens if not hundreds of times the rate in immunised folk. Almost like there’s some sort of protection immunised folks get from a vaccine…

        • Colonial Viper

          Weird how the incidence rate of measles in un- or under-immunised people is dozens if not hundreds of times the rate in immunised folk.


          I challenge you to find any NZ stats whatsoever on the relative risk comparing those who are measles immunised vs not immunised, which back your BS inflated estimates above.

          • Draco T Bastard


            How effective is MMR?

            Over 90 percent of people are protected with one dose. This increases to 95 percent, if people have two doses. By getting immunised you are not only protecting yourself or your child – you’ll also stop this disease from spreading.

            • Colonial Viper

              OK. This doesn’t answer my very simple question. Which is about the relative risk of getting measles between these two groups in NZ i.e. vaccinated vs unvaccinated.

          • McFlock

            here, for a start.
            84 cases.
            4 documented fully immunised.

            80:4. More than a dozen, all things being equal.
            With an immunisation rate greater than 70%, “hundreds” becomes realistic.
            population of Waikato DHB 373,220
            80/111966= 71 per 100k
            4 per 261254 = 1.5 per 100k.
            You can do the math yourself as the immunisation rate approaches its 90% target.

            • Colonial Viper

              So it’s a 20:1 ratio, and that’s been skewed to look that good by your lumping in partially vaccinated cases with non-vaccinated cases, in addition to putting aside the likely 1 or 2 fully vaccinated but undocumented/documentation not found individuals who also got sick. So the ratio is not “dozens”, and not “hundreds” to 1, except in your hypothetical future scenario.

              Further the difference in absolute risk between fully vaccinated and all others is miniscule, using your own figures i.e. 71 per 100K (not fully vaccinated) vs 1.5/100K (fully vaccinated).

              Basically, being fully vaccinated in the DHB region changed your absolute chance of getting measles in this outbreak by 0.07%. Assuming the risk of serious complications is 10%, then being fully vaccinated improved your chances of avoiding serious disease by 0.007%.

              • McFlock

                The ratio of cases is 20:1.

                The risk ratio (what you asked for), even assuming “under vaccinated” is as good as “fully vaccinated” at a 70% imms rate is:
                Relative risk 22.1667
                95 % CI 10.6985 to 45.9282
                Unvac incidence of 0.06%, Vaccinated rate of 0.003%

                At 90% immunisation (DHB target), the rate ratio is:
                Relative risk 90.5908
                95 % CI 43.7244 to 187.6914
                Unvac incidence of 0.2%, Vaccinated rate of 0.002%

                so “dozens if not hundreds”. Which is what I said. And what you tried to call bullshit on before bothering with a quick google search.

                So now you’re arguing that a low incidence rate in a highly-immunised society means the vaccine program isn’t needed.

                A normal person might think that a low incidence rate of a highly-transmissable disease simply shows that the vaccine program works, but you can read the code in the matrix and know better, I guess.

                • Colonial Viper

                  The risk ratio (what you asked for), even assuming “under vaccinated” is as good as “fully vaccinated” at a 70% imms rate is:
                  Relative risk 22.1667
                  95 % CI 10.6985 to 45.9282
                  Unvac incidence of 0.06%, Vaccinated rate of 0.003%

                  Nice calculator thanks for doing this work. There is no need to assume that “under vaccinated” is as good as “fully vaccinated” as supposedly they are very close in performance: a single dose of MMR is claimed to provide “more than” 90% protection according to official NZ websites.

                  So I appreciate you plugging that into the RR.

                  Now. The infectious period for measles is supposedly 7-12 days. Assumption: every one of those 84 sick will have been in close proximity with at least 50 different people over that time period (friends, family members, class mates, sports team members etc).

                  Therefore we are dealing with 4200 people total exposed to the pathogen (likely an underestimate I think). 84 got sick, 4116 did not. Out of those 4200 people, assuming 70% were vaccinated = 2940 (8 sick out of those), 30% were not = 1260 (76 sick out of those).

                  If you were vaccinated and exposed to the disease you had a 2.7/1000 chance of getting sick. If you were unvaccinated and exposed to the disease you had a 60.3/1000 chance of getting sick.

                  In this outbreak then, the actual advantage displayed by those who were vaccinated and exposed was 22.3 fewer cases of sickness per 1000 people exposed (when compared to 1000 unvaccinated and exposed peeps).

                  Assuming a 10% serious complication rate, a benefit of 2.2 fewer severe complications resulted per 1000 people vaccinated and exposed. In this outbreak, 997.8 out of every 1000 people vaccinated did not experience this level of benefit.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    (sorry my math wandered off above)

                    In this outbreak then, the actual advantage displayed by those who were vaccinated and exposed was 57.6 fewer cases of sickness per 1000 people exposed (when compared to 1000 unvaccinated and exposed peeps).

                    Assuming a 10% serious complication rate, a benefit of 5.8 fewer serious complications resulted per 1000 people vaccinated and exposed. In this outbreak, 994.2 out of every 1000 people vaccinated experienced less than this level of benefit.

                    • McFlock

                      Even if the math were fine, you still miss the fact that the direct personal benefit is at that level because we have such a high vaccination rate. If an unvaccinated person is less likely to meet an infected person, they’re freeloading off everyone else, but you’d still say it’s evidence that the vaccine isn’t needed.

                      And your math depends entirely on my low-ball estimate of the vaccination rate. As itincreases, the “direct personal benefit” of vaccination increases non-linearly because the population on unvaccinated people decreases dramatically.

                      Googling with fresh eyes says Waikato DHB has an imms rate of 84%. So the unvaccinated incidence rate is closer to 2 per thousand. Multiply 76 by 6 (15%) to get the 0% vaccinated population incidence and you have 456 cases in Waikato alone, without incorporating any modelling for increased transissability because of lower population immunity. With 100% vaccination, it would be down to 10 or 12.

                      Which is broadly in line with the pre/post-vaccine incidence rates in the US.

                  • McFlock

                    No-o I’m not entirely sure about the validity of back-calculating an R0 based on purely numeric data and a rough estimate of interpersonal contact.

                    It’s sort of the cut-off between pop stats no longer sufficient and getting into network theory. We don’t know if there are clusters (e.g. unvac families) or large nodes (e.g. a receptionist who has contact with hundreds of people a day).

                    But what we do know via wikipedia (because it’s 2:30am and I’m off to be soon) is that in about 0.1% of cases the “complication” is “death”. We’re up to 190 since december. If Waikato DHB is anything to go by (76:8), I think we know what failed to forestall the inevitable when it finally happens.

                    Time to catch some zees.

                    • Chooky

                      Thanks guys…. but is God a statistician?

                      Still believe it is best for the immune system to get the measly virus when you are a child and be done with it…man made vaccines in this case are not working and have their own complications

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I agree with you Chooky, particularly if the child is well supported through the disease process. Same goes with the seasonal flu.

                    • McFlock

                      Even “well supported” one case in a thousand die.

                      The vaccine works fine.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Even “well supported” one case in a thousand die.

                      More like one case in 3000-5000 according to official UK Public Health figures since 1960.

                    • McFlock

                      And the US saw 3 deaths per thousand cases 1987-2000.

                      And apparently the current NZ outbreak has higher hospital admission rates than average, which suggests the mort rate might also be higher.

                      But this is all quibbling over what level of harm and mortality you find acceptable.

                      To return to my original and now demonstrated point, measles rates in unvaccinated people are dozens if not hundreds of times higher than those in vaccinated people.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Relative risk 22.1667
                      95 % CI 10.6985 to 45.9282

                      That’s the figure mate, not “dozens” or “hundreds” of times for a hypothetical optimal situation which does not exist in the Waikato.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And the US saw 3 deaths per thousand cases 1987-2000.

                      The UK site – an official government site – has UK data for over half a century. A death rate which is 10x higher in the US than the UK may demonstrate little more than the effects of large pockets of bitter poverty across the US and its privatised healthcare system, despite the compulsory vaccination policies in many states.

                    • McFlock

                      The CI goes from 10 to 45. Observed rate is almost two dozen times higher for unvaccinated folk.

                      But that’s at 70% immunisation rate, the best scenario for your argument.

                      At 90%, the DHB target, observed rate in unvaccinated people is 90 times higher than vaccinated people, with a confidence interval of 43 to 187 times higher. Actual immunisation rate is apparently 84%, so you can do the math yourself on that one.

                      Definitely “dozens”. If not “hundreds” (which is still a reasonable estimate if unvaccinated people cluster rather than being uniformly distributed throughout the population).

                    • McFlock

                      A death rate which is 10x higher in the US than the UK may demonstrate little more than the effects of large pockets of bitter poverty across the US and its privatised healthcare system, despite the compulsory vaccination policies in many states.

                      … which might be why the CDC count 539 cases this year in a population of 300 million, while we’re on 190 cases in a pop of 4 million.

                      It may demonstrate what you say. It may demonstrate any number of things. It might just demonstrate that when numbers are small, mort rates can bounce around

                      Keep quibbling over how many deaths you’re happy with.

                      Unvaccinated folk are still dozens if not hundreds of times more likely to get measles.

                      I missed the bit where you actually linked to your source, btw – although I only had a few hours sleep, so might be my fault 🙂

                    • northshoredoc

                      I find it astounding that CV and Chooky are still pushing the don’t vaccinate your kids line.

                      If we did not have the levels of vaccination we have in this country (which I believe are too low at present) the outbreaks in auckland at the beginning of the year and that in the Waikato would be exponentially worse.

                      For those not immunised against the Measles virus there is well over a 90% chance of becoming infected if one comes into contact with the virus the impact on schools, families and medical resources is significant enough in our current situation – in a completely non immunised society it would be catastrophic.

  22. lprent 24

    Ok. Finished playing around with the system now.

    Changed the caching system to use some storage that costs a lot less, but which shouldn’t cause the site to be much slower.

    I’ll check the dailies tomorrow.

    Time to find a nice warm bed.

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