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Open mike 02/09/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 2nd, 2015 - 106 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

106 comments on “Open mike 02/09/2015 ”

  1. vaughan little 1

    I read a tonne on China. Simultaneously far from enough and quite the time-sink.

    this piece stands out. brief and yummy.

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/wrong-chinese-model-jeanne-marie-gescher

    • Draco T Bastard 1.1

      China’s greatest significance to the world is not its economic model but the recurring lesson of its political one. Without the rule of law, whatever economic value might be built will ultimately fail. What is the rule of law ? The power of responsible human beings to ask questions. Last year’s Hong Kong students understood it, even as others seemed to miss the point: the rule of law is not clearer rules and stricter punishments, it is the submission of the state to the discipline of a legal system that listens to the voices of people on the ground. Without it, all great orders – including those of the global economy and global security – are of no more substance than a dream.

      QFT

  2. Paul 2

    The Herald mistakes people’s democratic decisions for a sinister plot.
    No surprises then.
    The Herald doesn’t have a clue what democracy looks like.
    And nor does Claire Trevett.
    Like Hisking, I guess her defence might be she is not a journalist.

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11506413

    • RedBaronCV 2.1

      How dare they. How arrogant can you get. Disagreeing with the pathetic agenda of the government of the day is not a plot – that headline is just sick and shows a huge lack of respect for the right of people to campaign and make a decision that suits them.

      Aren’t they part of a plot to foist something on the country that A truckload of people are less than interested in.

      • weka 2.1.1

        There is going to be activism to affect the first referendum, encouraging people to make an informal vote, and I would guess the second too, although the second one will look normal to the MSM.

        I agree about the Herald/Trevett not understanding democracy. If it were a plot it would be secret, like say dirty politics, or the whole way the flag thing has been orchestrated by National. But people opposed to what National are doing with the flag are being open about it.

        Get that Herald? FFS, NZF put out a press statements about it some time ago. Did the Herald fail to cover that at the time and so now you feel the need to ‘reveal’ it?

      • greywarshark 2.1.2

        Truckloads of people may find themselves out of favour in transport of (not) delight if National keep singing Muldoon’s satirical signature tune, I did it my way.

    • tracey 2.2

      Fascinating (but nothing more than that I am sure) that the guy who led the flag change crusade got two flags in the final four AND they are liked by John Key.

    • Molly 2.3

      I always thought gerrymandering was specifically in regards to electoral boundaries.

      Seems I was right.

      As a political columnist, it seems a basic error for Claire Trevett to make.

      • fender 2.3.1

        LOL, this is probably what happens when an idiot masquerading as a political columnist simply regurgitate the contents of a txt received from FJK.

      • North 2.3.2

        Trev’ seems neither principled nor bright. How hopeless !

      • Lanthanide 2.3.3

        It’s someone who thinks they are clever by using a term like that.

        Really it just shows their ignorance.

        In other words: just smart enough to be dangerous.

  3. mickysavage 3

    Are Syria’s problems because of climate change? And will it be the first failed state because of global warming?

    http://www.upworthy.com/trying-to-follow-what-is-going-on-in-syria-and-why-this-comic-will-get-you-there-in-5-minutes?g=6

  4. Chooky 4

    ‘Western-made refugee crisis’

    http://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/313860-western-crisis-eu-refugees/

    “The real and imagined refugee crisis engulfing Europe: What accounts for the EU’s near indifference to the plight of refugees clamoring to enter European countries? Could it be that these people are from countries NATO members have attacked, and turned into failed states or havens for terrorists? These refugees never wanted to leave home in the first place…

    CrossTalking with Sukant Chandan, Anders Lustgarten, and Tim Finch.”

    • locus 4.1

      Chooky, I’m not sure if you realise you’re listening to RT, a Russian state sponsored news source…..

      This is not an “imagined crisis” this is real. I’m here and seeing hundreds of refugees a week queuing in my own street trying to get processed. I have watched regular news reports on all European news stations showing thousands a week crossing European borders.

      There is no “EU indifference”.

      I joined a march of more than 20,000 people last night in Vienna protesting that we’re not doing enough here in Austria. By July this year Austria was taking in 370 refugees daily. The number is increasing ….. 80,000 are expected this year in a country one third of the size of NZ and with only double NZ’s population

      Thousands of people are opening their homes ……. and there is a genuine welcome for people fleeing from the atrocities of war

      Spouting politics and blame about NATO or anyone else is not going to help one little bit

      • marty mars 4.1.1

        + 1 Good to see that people are doing what they can to help this awful situation.

      • Grim 4.1.2

        “We’re going to take out 7 countries in 5 years: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan & Iran..” General Wesley Clark 2007

        in Chooky’s link does it say anywhere that the crisis is imagined? it is very real, and as usual it’s the people paying the price, not the engineers of the crisis.

        But those very same groups that created the crisis are now capitalizing on it, exporting the problems to Europe.

        If your country is in debt and failing, taking on more mouths to feed without first fixing your own underlying structural issues is suicide.

        http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/austria

        Every coloured revolution has resulted in the destruction of countries and introduction of totalitarian regimes, George Soro sponsored or US foreign policy, all have been funded and designed to destroy.

        We could, in NZ set aside The Catham Islands as a new country free from debt, and allow the refugees an opportunity to start again, but no, what do we do, welcome them into our failing system, more citizens locked into debt slavery.

        • locus 4.1.2.1

          and who are you ..Grim.. to tell the Austrians what they can and can’t do?
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Austria

          in Chooky’s link does it say anywhere that the crisis is imagined?

          Yes……

          From the RT site (which is more interested in framing Europe as the bad guys, than recording the plight of the hundreds of thousands of refugees and the outpouring of support from Austria, Germany and others) :

          The real and imagined refugee crisis engulfing Europe

          and another RT headline from Chooky’s link:

          Why is EU so indifferent to refugees’ plight?

          • Grim 4.1.2.1.1

            seriously?

            did you even listen to the audio or watch the video?

            and who am I to….. I am no-one, same as you.

            I see you ignored everything else I posted in favor of trying to start a fight, good one.

            • locus 4.1.2.1.1.1

              hmm fair enough it does look like i’m picking a fight… sorry that wasn’t the intent and it was a bit snotty of me to say ‘who are you to…..

              i’m not interested in a fight, i’m just a bit sensitive to the blame game that is filtering in to conversations about how best to help refugees.

              I’m living in Austria – and we’re doing a lot to help here, so I couldn’t understand the bitterness of your comment – clearly referring to Austria given the link you provided:

              If your country is in debt and failing, taking on more mouths to feed without first fixing your own underlying structural issues is suicide

  5. Kyle P 6

    Is it time for New Zealand to pay compensation to the Pacific Islanders it sent into slavery 150 years ago? Spotlighting a piece of history forgotten by most Kiwis http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2015/08/the-slave-raids-on-tonga-documents-and.html

    • les 6.1

      by 1863 the population had increased from 75 to about 300…….’ In 1862, after a campaign by business owners, Peru’s parliament voted to allow the ‘recruitment’ of labourers from the Pacific Islands. Islanders would supposedly be invited to sign ‘contracts’ that promised them freedom and a lives as ‘colonists’ in Peru in return for three years of almost unpaid labour there. The contracts of islanders could be bought and sold.
      A fleet of ships soon sailed from Callao, the port of Lima. Instead of convincing Pacific Islanders to sign contracts freely, the crews of these ships usually kidnapped whomever they could find. More than three thousand men, women, and children were taken from eastern and western Polynesia and from Micronesia. More than fifteen hundred came from Rapa Nui alone…..’

      and you think NZ shpuld pay compensation….as the treaty was what 1840…long bow much!!!

  6. Kyle P 7

    As rest of blog post shows, NZers were the ones who removed Tongans from their islands and sold them to Peruvians. NZ state knew what was going on but never took action against slavers.

    • les 7.1

      ‘New Zealand became effectively self-governing in all domestic matters (except ‘native policy’) in 1856, when responsible government (the executive having the support of a majority of the members of the House of Representatives) was accepted. Control over native policy passed to the colonial government in the mid-1860s. The New Zealand government became fully responsible for its own foreign relations in 1935 ‘.

  7. Labour needs to paint Key into a resign corner over flag change.

    He’s spending $28million of taxpayers money on a personal quest.

    If it turns out the flag change campaign is a complete flop he should resign for such a waste of money. Which will without a doubt have been spent entirely in the pursuit of his own vain ambition.

    Why are the Labour Party not taking this line of attack on Key?

    Make him promise to resign if the participation rate is low and the flag change does not happen. It will be $28 million pissed up against the wall.

    Are not opposition parties meant to hold governments accountable?

    See my post Key should resign if $28 million flag change project is a flop.

    Labour should be making Key sweat over this.

    • fender 8.1

      It seems only fair that Key should just change the flag to whatever he wants and scrap the referendum charade..

    • cogito 8.2

      That could be risky. I suspect that there are plenty of traditional National voters who want to keep the current flag and similarly plenty of Labour/Green voters who might want a change. Making this a resignation issue could overshadow what should be almost a conscience issue, as the flag should be a national symbol that transcends political allegiance.

      That said, if the current flag should win, there would be plenty of egg on Key’s face.

      What worries me is that Key will now use every dirty trick in the book – and more – to manipulate the NZ public into voting for change, purely because his ego and credibility are at stake. Scum.

      • freedom 8.2.1

        JK will harp on how changing the flag is part of Labour’s policy platform despite Labour clearly stating they don’t think this is the time for such a policy to be enacted. That won’t stop him spinning it every chance he gets. Once again though, John Key forgets to read to the end and misses the important bit, that Labour isn’t talking of change ‘right now’.

        • Bob 8.2.1.1

          Labour has a policy platform??? John Key obviously knows something the rest of us don’t.

          • freedom 8.2.1.1.1

            Where else do you think National grab their more reasonable ideas from?

            before they gut them of any social good and stew the innards and present the emaciated husk for public consumption of course 🙂

      • Redbaiter 8.2.2

        Key is already using a raft of dirty tricks, and I agree it could well get worse. Its one of the reasons I do not like the man.

        However as to the resign issue, Labour do not have much to lose, but much to gain. Undoubtedly there is a risk here, but the rewards far outweigh the possibility of failure.

        And the issue would not really be the flag so much as the waste of $28 million at John Key’s personal whim, when so many did not want it spent at all.

        It would be even better if Labour could show how the whole process was rigged, and still it failed.

        If this is a flop, then Key should be forced to resign. Not only for the waste of money, but also for the duplicitous and rigged manner in which the change campaign was conducted.

    • weka 8.3

      “Labour should be making Key sweat over this.”

      Yeah, because of all the fucked up things Key has done, the flag one is the worst and is the best one to target him on.

      Oooh, look… hypnoflag!

      • Redbaiter 8.3.1

        If Labour went about it the right way its an issue that could see Key leave politics. Would this be any kind of victory?

        • weka 8.3.1.1

          Is that another way of saying this is Labour’s fault?

          • Redbaiter 8.3.1.1.1

            Do I think Labour is weak in opposition?

            Of course I do.

            • weka 8.3.1.1.1.1

              That wasn’t what I meant, which I’m sure you know.

              How about this then? Why should anyone here take seriously any advice you have about what Labour, or the left, should do? If you can’t keep your side in order, don’t expect us to do it.

              • Redbaiter

                You should take my advice seriously because-

                Key and the Nationals are not “My side”.

                I am a true small govt voter who likewise seriously would like to see the weak socialist and spin merchant John Key and the National Party kicked out of govt, purged of Key and his supporters, and then completely reformed as a real right wing party.

                And come back as that, and not a hollow bunch of compromisers and spinners trying to be all things to all men. As they are now.

                • so you wouldn’t be happy if labour formed a coalition as the next government then

                  • Redbaiter

                    I would be happy from the perspective that there does not appear to be any other route towards the restoration of the National Party to the conservative principles it was founded upon.

                    • yes, so the means (getting the gnats out) is to get to the ends (getting a real gnat party in). Therefore any advice for labour from you is a poison pill isn’t it.

                    • lprent

                      …the restoration of the National Party to the conservative principles it was founded upon.

                      You could do to read some actual NZ history rather than just making crap up. The National party wasn’t founded on conservative principles. Almost the exact opposite in fact.

                      It was formed from a coalition between the Union party (ie Liberals) and Reform (ie rural tory who were often pretty economically liberal) parties.

                      The true conservatives probably weren’t more than peripherally involved in the formation as they were haring off supporting the Democratic party, which was mainly made up of Reform party members who thought that their brethren in Reform were being too “socialist”, liberal and insufficiently conservative.

                      But that just about defines conservatives everywhere, short-sighted and unable to deal with a changing world. In this case The Great Depression. So for National to truly return to the values that they were founded on, I’d suggest a wholesale defenestration of the conservatives who have attached themselves to the party like freeloading barnacles.

                      I suspect that the word you were hunting for was actually nonsocialist, because that is all National have ever been.

                • weka

                  Key and the Nationals are not “My side”.

                  Yet you go on to talk about the right. That is what I meant about sides, in the same way that Labour is on my side, despite me not voting for them and for them being so lite.

                  So the question still stands. Why should anyone on the left take your advice on what the left wing should do given you are right wing?

                  • Redbaiter

                    Lprent- I became interested in what National had started out as when I noticed they were swinging too far left.

                    We have a number of old NZ encyclopedias (ae?) in our house so I went and looked National up.

                    It was there I came across the founding principles of National as penned by Sid Holland and (presumably) his colleagues.

                    They were-

                    “To promote good citizenship and self-reliance; to combat communism and socialism; to maintain freedom of contract; to encourage private enterprise; to safeguard individual rights and the privilege of ownership; to oppose interference by the State in business, and State control of industry”.

                    I thought they were pretty good principles and worth conserving. As for whether National have ever lived up to these principles, of course I would not know much about earlier manifestations of the party. Perhaps they didn’t.

                    One thing I do know for sure is that Key and his weak directionless appeasers have never given them a second thought, if they even understood what they meant or even if they knew they existed at all.

      • fisiani 8.3.2

        The tide for change is clearly turning on the flag debate as indicated by the recent poll in the Herald. The timing of the referendum in relation to the Rugby World Cup indicates that there will be even greater interest in people having the democratic chance to rank their most popular option. With 3 out of 4 being a fern it is odds on that we will have a fern as the winner of the first referendum. Yet again John Key who shows great insight into the psyche of Kiwis has outsmarted the ever pessimistic Chicken Little who has hitched his negative campaign to what will be the losing side. A year into the job and not any shift in the polls. I hear he has been given till the end of the year to make inroads. Election 2017 will be in approx October. When in 2016 will Robertson make his move?

    • gsays 8.4

      hi redbaiter, i think voices from the ‘right’ side of the spectrum, criticizing the dear leaders actions would be far more effective.

      get on to one of the focus groups so beloved by the political heroes and make change that way.

    • infused 8.5

      You make such good posts, then such stupid ones like this.

    • James 8.6

      Despite it being labour policy about a flag change and to have a referendum on it?

      • freedom 8.6.1

        At 8.2.1 I posted the following:

        JK will harp on how changing the flag is part of Labour’s policy platform despite Labour clearly stating they don’t think this is the time for such a policy to be enacted. That won’t stop him spinning it every chance he gets. Once again though, John Key forgets to read to the end and misses the important bit, that Labour isn’t talking of change ‘right now’.

        James, you are commenting on a thread trail, so it is assumed you read the other posts in the thread.
        If you dispute the stated position then say so and a Hansard dump can be delivered that clearly and repeatedly shows Labour do not believe this is the time for change.

        Having a policy on their books which states they still support changing the flag is neither here nor there.
        Why do you National fanboys have so much trouble comprehending the concept of “right now” ?

  8. adam 9

    Hard right wing scum.

    Warning, the images are bloody awful. And already the government in Ukraine is bowing down to these Neo-nazi scum.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/kiev-riots-horrifying-footage-shows-6355158

    Bias I know – but.

    https://www.rt.com/news/313880-ukraine-radicals-protest-parliament/

  9. NZSage 10

    Carrying on the flag debate….

    I’ll be voting for the status quo but had this one been in the mix I may have been persuaded to vote for it!

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNxX2vBUsAUDDqO.jpg:large

    https://twitter.com/shawnmoodie/status/638481845986848772/photo/1

  10. freedom 11

    Over at TDB, the Spoil n’ Foil agenda is laid out. It includes this crucial sentence.

    By this simple strategy, we, the people, can show the same scorn to Key’s pet-project as he did to the asset sales referendum in 2013

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/09/02/flying-the-flags-of-discontent-mobilise/

    Time to remind the government democracy is a tool the people still have some control over?

    • Anne 11.1

      Step 1 Spoil.
      Step 2 Foil.

      Great slogan that could catch on nation-wide.

    • BM 11.2

      You do realize you’re handing the next election to National.

      Or does that not matter in activist world ?

      • weka 11.2.1

        I think we established some time ago that you don’t understand how social change works.

      • marty mars 11.2.2

        why do you care?

      • freedom 11.2.3

        What ?!? 😮

        Please oh wise one, how is proving JK’s vanity project a failure going to hand him the 2017 election?
        C’mon, what twisted machinations of your insalubrious synapses have you melded to form that conclusion?

        There may be numerous contributing factors to a deleterious fourth term but having the referendum resolutely thrown back in his face ?

        • BM 11.2.3.1

          Kim dot com

          [Your comments on yesterday’s Open Mike….going somewhat out of my way to bring this to your attention BM.
          http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01092015/#comment-1065417 ] – Bill

          [lprent: Bill – wrong person. Ignore that BM. ]

          • BM 11.2.3.1.1

            What’s that got to do with me?

          • freedom 11.2.3.1.2

            Again, WHAT !?! 😮

            You have made a big claim stating the failure of the flag referendum would hand John Key the 2017 election.
            Bizarrely referring to a massively manipulated smear campaign full of ignorance and lies that centered on NZ’s involvement in illegal surveillance of citizens and governments by our Five Eyes’ partnership is in what way relevant to the selection of a flag?

            and how is the likely failure of that flag selection process going to hand John key an election in 18 months time?

            • BM 11.2.3.1.2.1

              Right.

              Surprised you didn’t grasp what I was referring to but then again you left wingers seem to be utterly blinded by your own egos.

              One of the main reasons National romped home at the last election was because Kim dot com was seen by the voting public to be fucking with our democratic process

              Talk of ruining or trying to sabotage the referendum will have the same effect.

              Stupid politics.

              • weka

                National didn’t romp home last election. Given you’ve tried to spin that part of your comment is there any reason to believe the rest of it?

              • freedom

                BM, I think you have failed to understand the basic premise of Spoil n’ Foil. What a shock.

                The first referendum is meaningless. It is fun. You may not remember fun, slavishly regurgitating whatever propaganda your masters deem you fit to articulate, but fun in a democracy is in fact possible. And having fun with a pointless and unnecessary exercise, such as the first referendum process, is actually healthy for a democracy.

                People messing about with their voting papers in the first ballot will actually contribute to and definitely benefit the sincerity brought to the second ballot in 2016. The first referendum will act as a release valve for so many pressures on our country and its people. That may not change anything for most but it will feel damn good at the time.

                It does not imply however, they will carry that attitude into the second ballot. There will most certainly be a change in attitude by those you so gleefully demean on a regular basis with your unending belief in dear leader but the thing is BM, the people you think are wastrels occupying valuable real estate in your precious economically corrupt magicland of opportunity, are in fact far more capable than most ‘right thinking’ people I have met when asked to alter their behaviour when required to do so. Especially when required to do so in order to achieve a result of benefit to others. I accept that is a concept that lays outside your dogma cage but in my experience it is true nonetheless.

                Putting aside the fact there is no set minimum for returns and accepting the vote is binding are modes of comprehension that many people are actually fully capable of employing. Spoil n’ Foil does not in any way risk the outcome. It is not sabotaging the referendum or fucking with our democratic process. The first referendum is a near pointless exercise and in many ways is belittling the entire populace as it assumes that the citizens of NZ are incapable of dealing with a preferential selection process of a flag in a single ballot. But that is what the extremely undemocratic select committee process the government engaged in has decided and that is what we have to work with. When the committee chair decided to ignore over 700 applications to speak from the RSA for example, because they were submitted on what was deemed a “form submission” then some might say democracy wasn’t at the forefront of National’s agenda anyway. Their oft-proven hypocrisy in fact was glaringly evident as the entire “What do we stand for ” campaign that guided the flag selection process was driven by a similar form submission.

                The first referendum will be a laugh. People will be creative and joyful and I’m sure some classic kiwi material will come to light as ‘representations’ of their voting papers get tweeted and facebooked on the way to the postbox.

                The second referendum is an entirely more serious affair for everyone I know. And this might shock you but some of my best friends vote National and that is their choice. That is their right. As it is my right to regularly ridicule and berate them for doing so. Thankfully that number is diminishing. Not because they are no longer friends but because they have come to realise what a fucking treasonous and dangerous lot they voted in to power. Some of these people also see the benefit of Spoil n’ Foil in the upcoming referendums.

                The second referendum will be a sober and straightforward exercise in democratic integrity. I know there are lots of theories that the votes will be interfered with and we won’t get a real result but none of us have any control over that process. We are resigned to trusting the authorities tasked with the oversight of all referendums and elections and I have faith the vote will be legitimate because the people I know who work in such fields all do good work

                So please BM, think a little more and spurt a little less. I do not know a single person who is unwilling or undecided about partaking and the many people I have asked about the second referendum have unanimously stated they will be treating the vote as seriously as they do the general election. I do not believe the small but diverse subset of the NZ population that I interact with are in any way extraordinary in their approach to the upcoming referendum process.

                Spoil n Foil is simple, it is fun, it is democracy proving that if a government continues to belittle and disregard its citizenry then repercussions eventuate. Now is not the time for Aotearoa New Zealand to change its flag and the government will soon enough realise the people, not the spin doctors, have spoken.

    • ianmac 11.3

      The spoiled votes are counted BUT do not effect the voting on the four. So supposing there were 45% spoiled papers. That would for example allow say flag 1 to have 40%, Flag 2 =30%, Flag3 =20%, Flag 4 =10%.
      Flag 1 wins the poll in spite of the 45% spoiled papers.
      Maybe it would be better to vote 45% Koru, wipe out the other 3 and much likely win the run off. Okay?

      • weka 11.3.1

        That’s not a bad idea, but I think the point of spoling the voting paper isn’t to influence which flag of the four is chosen, but instead is to make plain just how many people think the referendum is a farce. The informal vote % will be reported in the MSM.

      • freedom 11.3.2

        Can imagine whatever option is finally selected from the first referendum, the spin numbers will not publicise it as a % of the total vote.
        I do sense the hypno flag making a late run to the line as a protest vote.

        also: The fact two of the choices are lost on a white (or black) background seems to have been overlooked by the selection panel but when they don’t bother putting anyone with practical design skills on a design selection panel …… and when they seem to have only investigated what the selections look like when hoisted up a flag pole …. then I think this not insignificant detail will sink in as people more carefully consider the options they have been presented with.

  11. weka 12

    WTF? One of Key’s flags is under copyright. Is the NZ govt going to be paying to use it? WHat about everyone else?

    http://www.silverfernflag.org/copyright.html

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1

      All the flag designs will be under copyright. I expect that the government will be buying the present copyright holder out for a large sum.

      • Redbaiter 12.1.1

        Ha, if that is so they better have the price arranged before the referenda.

      • James 12.1.2

        You guys need to do homework. The copyright is passed across without payment. Its pretty clear on the website.

        But – yeah – keep saying it hoping it will be true. You should bring back the due authority arguments also.

        • freedom 12.1.2.1

          so James, what is your take on the Silver Fern Flag website still offering the now shortlist designs for sale?
          Are they in breach of the T&C or not?

          p.s. regarding your post yesterday

          Open mike 01/09/2015

          • James 12.1.2.1.1

            Possibly – although they may have agreed that they were allowed to continue as they handed over the copyright.

            I was not privy to the conversation.

            • freedom 12.1.2.1.1.1

              Yup. Always handy to include a free pass to change the rules.

              19. The Crown reserves the right to vary or cancel the Flag Consideration Project at any time.

              🙂 but…

              It is just bloody weird having a referendum to decide on adopting a commercial product as a national flag

      • James 12.1.3

        I expect that you are completely unformed and just talking shit because you have not looked into it and are just another “national = bad” thinker.

        But just to prove you are wrong – please try and read.

        https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/resources/terms-and-conditions/

        • Redbaiter 12.1.3.1

          Sorry James, not interested enough.

          I don’t want the flag changed EOS.

          And neither do I buy into weak BS arguments like “its time”.

          Stick the whole damn rigged corrupt process up your arse.

          • James 12.1.3.1.1

            Typical – make argument. Provided evidence that proves wrong. Refuse to look at evidence. Puts head in sand, makes rude statement and walks away.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.3.1.1.1

              Yes, that is typical right wing behaviour from Bedwetter.

            • Redbaiter 12.1.3.1.1.2

              James- I find it pretty funny that you make yourself part of a corrupt rigged sleazy operation like Key’s flag change process and still expect to escape with your dignity intact.

        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.3.2

          I expect that you are completely unformed

          No, I can assure you that I am fully formed.

          just talking shit because you have not looked into it

          Not talking shit. The usual legal position is that copyright needs to be bought out and that is what I would have expected to happen. But you’re right in that I hadn’t actually looked at the conditions for entering the competition (Probably have something to do with me not entering the competition) and thus hadn’t realised that the government had claimed ownership of the IP as a condition of entering. Thank you for clarifying.

          are just another “national = bad” thinker.

          I’m not. I do look into what National do and then declare it bad because almost everything that National does is, as a matter of fact, bad. They even manage to stuff up good ideas.

          • James 12.1.3.2.1

            So you say you are fully informed, but hadn’t read something and just made an assumption based on what you would have expected to happen?

            That really isn’t fully informed is it – despite the assurance you give.

            And the government doesn’t “claim” ownership of the IP – it had to be handed over. There is a difference.

    • freedom 12.2

      Hi weka, it’s been mentioned a few times over the past few weeks but seems of little concern to anyone. Even the journos I know don’t want to touch it. Perhaps someone doesn’t want the issue out in the public arena.

      Three of the four have existing commercial copyrights.

      The Companies and Immigration Offices of the NZ government have the b+w fern as was highlighted in
      NRT’s post.

      and the two designs from the Silver Fern Flags website, which has been in operation for over a decade and as mentioned above is still operating

      part 15 of the T&C for shortlist design copyright process
      https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/resources/terms-and-conditions/

      • weka 12.2.1

        Thanks freedom. So has Lockwood been selling rights to use his designs and if so what does that mean for the NZ flag is his design gets chosen?

        This thing just keeps getting worse and worse, but it does show us just how far NZ has become NZ Inc.

        • freedom 12.2.1.1

          he has to sign over all rights and there is no financial compensation apparently, which seems harsh considering the many products he has been selling over the years to build the brand.

          I would have imagined the sign over should have already happened prior to the public announcement but, as the final four shortlist is now public, and the site is still operating as a commercial enterprise then…….?

          As James mentioned above it is probable an arrangement has been met to allow them to ‘wind up’ the business but that does not alter the bizarre situation of a country contemplating the adoption of a long standing commercial product as its national ensign.

          “farcical” seems a tad inadequate, even for NZ Inc,

          • weka 12.2.1.1.1

            I meant if he has sold rights already, what happens to them?

            • freedom 12.2.1.1.1.1

              I don’t believe he has sold reproduction rights but he does ask for attribution if published material includes the design.

              The site is primarily a store for the range of flags and peripheral objects, such as badges and pins etc.

              A new line of text has appeared on the Store page

              due to unprecedented demand as a result of the governments shortlist release, these flags have sold out, however more are on the way.”

              They are obviously planning to continue commercial operations using the shortlisted design and we can only assume they have governmental approval for such activity. (as per article 19 of the T&C i guess)

              What is stranger still, they updated their sales material after making the shortlist, but have not put a press release up on their media page announcing their success?

              What it means as we go forward into the referendums is anyone’s guess

              There is one other thing before I leave the SFF issue alone… These ‘NZ’ flags don’t seem to have a “made in NZ’ logo anywhere on the page. Wonder where he gets them manufactured?

  12. Draco T Bastard 13

    U.S. is even more implicated in Israeli settlement project than we thought

    The Israeli colonies are an American problem in a whole new way. Nearly one out of six settlers in the West Bank is an American. Haaretz broke the story. Oxford scholar Sara Yael Hirschhorn says Americans are starkly overrepresented among West Bank settlers:

    Roughly 60,000 American Jews live in West Bank settlements, where they account for 15 percent of the settler population, according to figures revealed Thursday by an Oxford University scholar and expert on this population.

    No wonder the US doesn’t say anything against the continued invasion and theft of Palestine while continuing to support Israel’s war of terror against Palestinians.

  13. weka 14

    More on the MSM’s misrepresentation of Corbyn, How to Speak Corbyn: a Healine-Writer’s Guide

  14. dv 15

    Thanks freedom. So has Lockwood been selling rights to use his designs and if so what does that mean for the NZ flag is his design gets chosen?

    That is a really interesting question weka.

    So will the govt have to buy the copy right back?

  15. Draco T Bastard 17

    Could this wasp cure cancer?

    New research shows that the venom of Polybia Paulista, a Brazilian wasp, contains a powerful drug that attacks tumour cells without harming normal cells. It works by destroying lipids, which form the fatty tissue of certain cell surfaces.

    Dr Paul Beales, of the University of Leeds, explains to Newsday how the venom kills cancer.

    Audio.

  16. Glenn 18

    My dear 93 year old mother who is rabidly against a flag change was shocked today when DW and I said we would spoil our voting papers. ” You can’t do that, your father went to war so you could vote.”
    OK we won’t vote then…”You can’t do that your father etc..” “I don’t want to but I’m going to have to vote for one of them”

    At least next year she should have it sorted.

  17. Rodel 19

    Me I’m not really interested but the old flag does seem like a real flag to me.
    I tend to agree with the a Nat party politician who aptly described the 4 new flag choices as not real flags but more like nice beach towels?

  18. greywarshark 20

    Just a thought for later. I had an idea that for the next pre-election period TS could run a post entitled the Electorate Whisperer. It would probably get called the Vote W but that wouldn’t be correct.

    It would be for people who don’t usually blog to get some hard information relating to them personally, and their neighbours. People would be asked to write in and ask how their electorate could get best advantage by voting strategically.

    Probably there would be a cloud of useless gnats but the left would have the first attention. . A lot of people treat blogs as if there be dragons but for this post, it would be straightforward.

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