Open mike 03/07/2024

44 comments on “Open mike 03/07/2024 ”

• Comments are now closed

1. Ad 1

   3 July 2024 at 9:18 am

   So if major political candidates are getting much older on average, what would make standing more attractive for the young?
   • weka 1.1

     3 July 2024 at 9:32 am

     a political culture that makes sense to them and is easier to function in.
   • Tiger Mountain 1.2

     3 July 2024 at 9:32 am

     Maybe giving a shit? My son said to me when younger…“no one’s into sticking it to the man anymore dad…” Now in early 30s with workplace and life experience he is a staunch supporter of Palestine and numerous other issues.

     Generation student loan and generation renters of over priced dumps are starting to push back. Te Pāti Māori did a sterling job with the budget actions. The demographic changes slightly with each boomer funeral.

     Coots in suits and their political parties are going to be on the outer, not soon enough for me–as a leftist boomer–but it will happen.
     • Obtrectator 1.2.1

       3 July 2024 at 9:39 am

       Meet the new boomer; same as the old boomer (eventually).
       • Tiger Mountain 1.2.1.1

         3 July 2024 at 10:35 am

         Well hopefully that old trope fades. Determinism, fatalism and defeatism are not the way to go for the working class. Fight, fight & fight.
         • James Simpson 1.2.1.1.1

           3 July 2024 at 11:50 am

           The vast majority of people are working class, yet Nact1 are in government.

           Any ideas why?
           • Tiger Mountain 1.2.1.1.1.1

             3 July 2024 at 12:57 pm

             Same as ever…the ideological struggle is often dominated by the ruling class via the media channels–heh, ZB and such like–and state force is there to surveil, jail, bash and run up MSD debts as required. 40 years of a neo liberal state, union busting, and flogging off worker built assets have broken down collectivism as private capital has penetrated public infrastructure.

             The upshot is alienation from political involvement among the bottom 50% who have barely 5% of the wealth. NZ has a large farming, tradie, SME, self employed aspirational sector who identify with capital and finance capital.
             Good enough answer James about the filthy Natzos ?
             • James Simpson …

               3 July 2024 at 1:26 pm

               Good enough answer James about the filthy Natzos ?

               Thanks for taking the time to respond, but I still don't get it.

               My own view is our leaders on the left have ben far too timid.

               Labour has been the government for 21 of the 40 years you referenced. With the exception of Lange/Douglas, you'd reasonably expect that time in power to have caused a rebalancing of the issues you have identified. Yet here we are at the beginning of another Nat term of government with the fundamental settings the same as they were in 1990. People keep voting for it, and even when they swing to the left nothing changes.

               Its frustrating and a tad depressing that Kiwis continue to support this system we live .
               • Tiger Mountain …

                 3 July 2024 at 3:12 pm

                 To put it another way…structurally since 1984 the neo liberal state remained substantially intact whichever party was in office or which group of parties under MMP.

                 State Sector Act, Reserve Bank Act, debt to GDP cap, contracting out, privatised power generation and supply (bludging on previous working class construction of Hydro power), SOEs, student loans, etc. all roll over whom ever wins.

                 Cancellation of import substitution regimes that enabled textile, footwear, clothing, car assembly, Ministry of works, Forestry, fishing, all haunt us still.

                 So until that is changed…Greens and TPM are into it, but not Labour at this stage.
               • Descendant Of Smith …

                 3 July 2024 at 3:44 pm

                 Cause voting Labour isn't voting for the left. It is a vote for national lite.

                 There's plenty been saying this for ages – some like me in 2010 and ever since. Others have since left us like Rogue Trooper.

                 There’s been quite a bit of comment about the gradual shift in this country over time to the right. To the point where Labour is really a right wing party.

                 We are ever getting closer to the American Democrat / Republican split where no one represents the workers.

                 This got me thinking about some of those things I grew up with that we were proud to have from a working class perspective and could they apply today. These things probably weren’t talked about much in well off households. This was modified with some of the thinking I’ve developed over time.

                 These are the sorts of policies that if espoused by a party would get my vote.

                 1. The principle of an egalitarian society with all citizens being looked after and supported
                 2. A clear statement that an increasing gap between the top and the bottom is not to be desired due to the negative social impacts. That the country should move forward as a whole.
                 3, A fair days work for a fair days pay. The 8 hour working day and the 40 hour working week should be re-instated. Anyone working more than 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week should be paid time and a half. Salaries – by which some employers currently use to get around the minumum wage rules – should be set a a minimum equivalent of 40 hours per week X 120% of the minumum wage.
                 4. Benefit rates should be increased immeadiately by the $20-00 per week cut made years ago. Labour should be deeply embarrassed by reinstating this for NZS but not for benefits.
                 5. Government should undertake as part of their social committment to provide jobs for young people and people with disabilities – particularly in times of recession. Government Departments should be funded specifically for this. The private sector should be supported to provide jobs for people with significant disabilities by having their health / productivity assessed on a 3 yearly basis and having the difference between the productivity assessment and the Invalids Benefit paid to the employer – until the person turns 65 and qualifies for NZS if need be. Workers must be paid at least the minimum wage.
                 6. All shop trading should cease on Sundays from 12:00 pm so workers all have half a day a week to spend with their families. This includes bars. This will also be positive for people running small businesses who have currently little choice but to open because their big competitors are.
                 7. Alcohol should not be able to be sold in dairies and similar outlets.
                 8. Gambling machines except in the casinos should be banned – this includes pubs and RSA’s.
                 9. A clear progressive tax system should be implemented with the proviso each year that 20% of any surplus should be returned to all tax payers in equal shares as a lump sum payment………..
                 • gsays …

                   3 July 2024 at 3:57 pm

                   Well said.

                   Whereabouts are you standing?

                   I will vote for that.
   • Bearded Git 1.3

     3 July 2024 at 10:33 am

     Vote Green…they are always younger.

     I think quite a few people will vote Green in the UK election to make a statement because they know Starmer is a shoe-in.
     • alwyn 1.3.1

       3 July 2024 at 12:04 pm

       "Shoo in", please. "Shoe in" would surely imply that he only got there because he got a good kick up the arse? Alternatively he will, if elected, give the electorate that treatment?
       • Anne 1.3.1.1

         3 July 2024 at 12:34 pm

         I took it to mean Starmer had his shoe in the door so that nobody else could get a foot in. 😉
       • Bearded Git 1.3.1.2

         3 July 2024 at 12:57 pm

         …oops. Thanks Alwyn.
     • James Simpson 1.3.2

       3 July 2024 at 12:04 pm

       I don't think it is because he is a “shoe-in” (which he is). They will vote Green because Starmer is not a left wing leader. He is a middle of the road unity leader. What he stands for is quite difficult to determine.

       Under their FPP system he will win by the largest landslide in history. But if you want to vote for a left progressive party, the Green party is the only option.
       • Bearded Git 1.3.2.1

         3 July 2024 at 1:02 pm

         Yeah its a slam donk for Labour.

         The SNP leans well to the left usually.
       • Michael Scott 1.3.2.2

         3 July 2024 at 4:27 pm

         Labour voters had the option to go left with Jeremy Corbyn or choose the neoliberal path with Starmer.
         • Bearded Git 1.3.2.2.1

           3 July 2024 at 6:35 pm

           Labour Party membership has dropped by roughly 200,000 under Starmer. Under Corbyn it was about 550k and has dropped to 350k.
       • Belladonna 1.3.2.3

         3 July 2024 at 7:24 pm

         Maybe the UK younger voters will vote Green (we'll see). But the French and German ones aren't.

         The Green parties in both countries have lost seats in the most recent elections. With a rise in the far right vote, rather than the far left.

         https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/09/green-party-losses-in-eu-elections-raise-concerns-over-green-deal

         Nor is it the older voters who are entirely driving this. Despite lowering voting ages, young people are also voting further right in greater numbers:

         For the European Union parliamentary elections early this month, voting ages were lowered to 16 in Belgium, Germany, Austria, Greece and Malta. And many of the first-time voters used this newly gained privilege to support local far-right parties

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-listener/opinion/european-election-green-wave-of-young-voters-turns-a-much-murkier-colour/4NGTVDQ2Z5CXXBSRXJ6PTX7PYI/
       • roblogic 1.3.2.4

         4 July 2024 at 12:14 am

         Starmer is YABN (Yet Another Blairite Neoliberal) in the endless parade of them that infest supposedly 'left' parties everywhere, sponsored no doubt by banks and big biz
     • Obtrectator 1.3.3

       3 July 2024 at 1:58 pm

       But hasn't the England & Wales Green party been captured by GC ideologues?
       • tWig 1.3.3.1

         3 July 2024 at 4:03 pm

         "According to policy documents, the (England and Wales) Green Party “recognise[s] there are many gender identities that are within, and outside of, the traditional gender binary of man and woman” and that “trans men are men, trans women are women, and non-binary identities exist and are valid”.

         to the party’s responsibilities and rights section of its policy statement continues: “We shall respect transgender and non-binary people’s identities as real. The Green Party shall include, and push for further acceptance of, transgender and non-binary people within all areas of society.”

         They have kicked GC individuals and the large Green Party Women group out, using perhaps dodgy excuses, but kicked them out nevertheless.

         According to a YouGov poll in Jun 2023 “Both in Britain and amongst all countries surveyed, women and younger adults are more likely than men and older adults, respectively, to say the transgender community faces a lot of discrimination. They also show higher levels of support for all types of measures in favour of transgender people, with differences of about 6 to 9 points between women and men and between Gen Zers and Boomers.”

         More young people, and more women support trans rights, people who are more likely to vote Green.
       • Visubversa 1.3.3.2

         3 July 2024 at 4:05 pm

         No, they have been captured by people who are too chicken to say that lesbians don't have penises.
       • roblogic 1.3.3.3

         4 July 2024 at 12:18 am

         That is one issue but there are actually more critical things like poverty, housing, collapsing NHS, and disgusting water supplies across England, which a more confidently Left-wing party is more likely to tackle seriously.
2. SPC 2

   3 July 2024 at 10:52 am

   The demand on primary health care is resulting in workplace stress.

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/07/03/gps-left-practice-now-relying-on-telehealth-due-to-stress-ex-staff/
3. Stephen D 3

   3 July 2024 at 10:58 am

   Two questions;

   Is the American voter more aware than the German voter in the 1930s?

   If not, how long before civil war breakes out? Ostensibly to reinstate the constitution.
   • aj 3.1

     3 July 2024 at 5:36 pm

     I don't think so and the political outcomes are getting equally likely since 2020.

     Civil war starts with the assassination of the winning candidate before the end of 2025
   • Belladonna 3.2

     3 July 2024 at 7:03 pm

     I think you are radically misunderstanding the socio-economic climate of Germany in the 1920s and the very early 1930s- which was the crucible in which the Nazi party was formed and gained popularity; if you are conflating it in any way with the socio-economic climate in the US in the 2020s.

     Nor was there a civil war (in any of the ways that is usually meant by that term) in Germany in the 1920s/30s.

     And the likelihood of one happening in the US is really, not very high. Potentially riots (with aggrieved voters), and protests in various forms. But the US has been through plenty of examples of both in the 20th century- without descending into Civil War.
     • aj 3.2.1

       3 July 2024 at 7:45 pm

       I do understand the ingredients are different, but the cooking is leading to the same poison.
       • Belladonna 3.2.1.1

         3 July 2024 at 8:21 pm

         Do you have some evidence for your belief?

         Because those countries which have descended into civil war, don't really have a lot in common with the socio-political climate in the US.

         Regardless of whether Trump wins or loses, I really don't see any indication that the US is likely to:

         • Embrace a blatant and eugenic anti-Semitic policy (feel free to substitute any other ethnic group)
         • Embark on a highly territorially expansionist policy – with concommittant vast increases in military expenditure and manning.
     • Stephen D 3.2.2

       3 July 2024 at 8:22 pm

       I’m well aware of the historical differences.
       The playbook being used by Trump is too similar to ignore. That, and pissing all over the constitution will, at some point cause a strong reaction. Given the number of firearms in the US, that could get violent.
       • Belladonna 3.2.2.1

         3 July 2024 at 8:37 pm

         If you're aware of the historical differences – then what was the point of your analogy? In what way do you see the two situations as alike?

         Precisely what elements of the 'playbook' do you think that Trump and Hitler share?

         Setting that aside.

         Are you envisaging that, Trump will win – and somehow manage to subvert the constitution. And that this will trigger outraged Democrats to rise up in arms against him?

         It seems highly unlikely – for a number of reasons.

         • Presidents have no power to change the constitution. The most Trump could do (and he already achieved much of this in his previous term), is to stack the Supreme Court with conservative justices – who are more likely to look favourably at the policy outcomes he wants.
         • I really can't see outraged Democrats taking to arms – even if he did try. Protests, yes. Even possibly violent protests (destruction of property, etc., as we saw during the BLM protests) – but storming the White House? I don't think so.

         Or, are you envisaging that Trump loses, and outraged supporters attempt to change the result by force of arms.

         You could argue that this has already been tried, and failed, badly, last time. There is no doubt that there will be safeguards in place to ensure that another attempt is promptly nipped in the bud.

         However, in this case, Trump would have exactly zero power to subvert the constitution. And the duly elected authorities will have both power and motivation to shut down any targeted violence very, very firmly.
         • roblogic 3.2.2.1.1

           4 July 2024 at 12:21 am

           Jan 6 was just a warm-up. The same forces are still there and have not been idle while Joe Biden bumbles about hopelessly
           • Belladonna 3.2.2.1.1.1

             4 July 2024 at 2:06 pm

             And your evidence is?
             • roblogic …

               6 July 2024 at 1:20 pm

               Pretty effin scary numbers here

               https://polymarket.com/elections

               https://www.thenation.com/article/society/trump-evangelicals-nar/

               A great darkness has captured the "Christian" Right, as they lurch towards fascism, fear and ignorance.
               • Ad …

                 6 July 2024 at 4:17 pm

                 So if there really a risk of a US civil war now, you'd expect to have seen these kinds of things emerge over the last four years:

                 – Mass internal migration towards ethnic cleansing or other hard separations. Something like large scale Northern Ireland of the 1910s and 1940s

                 – Mass weapons caches discovered, sustained bombing campaigns, evidence that internal large militarised networks preparing for rebellion are forming. Something like you'd find in Syria in the mid 2000s or eastern Ukraine in the 2010s.

                 – Other country's leaders saying that they are prepared to send troops to support the rebellion. Like most African states in the 1960s, supported by Soviet armaments and military advisors

                 – Armed groups in fresh uniforms torching suburbs and instilling fear. Something like the mid 1930s in Germany

                 – A restive military with charismatic alternative leadership. Something we saw with Fiji when Rabuka went for a full overthrow, and not just a military with a specific independent voice to the public like the IDF.

                 – And of course tens of thousands of young bored guys who are unemployed, hungry, and not going to take it anymore.

                 Instead we are seeing a US intelligence state woken up after the July 6th attempt at overthrow, and putting most of them in jail to serve their time.

                 There's no mass internal migration, no sustained bombing campaigns, no rioting mobs, no restive military, and of course record low unemployment and a booming economy.

                 Just the usual paper tigers in TikTok and Telegraph and X, feeding into a democracy that's certainly far rougher and far less than perfect. But that's what you should expect when the exchange of power in a US election is on a scale far beyond our comprehension here.
                 • roblogic …

                   7 July 2024 at 12:40 pm

                   A hot war seems unlikely but Trump is certainly pushing towards authoritarian rule that looks a lot like fascism.

                   • Attacks on the Media
                   • Abuse of executive power
                   • Attempts to criminalise opponents
                   • Voter suppression
                   • Erosion of trust in electoral integrity
                   • Allegations similar to blood libel (pizzagate)
                   • Suppression of protest (BLM)
                   • Weaponisation of mobs (Jan 6)
                   • Personality Cult
                   • Stacking the Supreme Court – potentially giving himself absolute impunity

                   Lots more here:

                   https://newrepublic.com/series/37/trump-2024-american-fascism-series
   • joe90 3.3

     3 July 2024 at 8:03 pm

     The threats are never far below the surface.

     And so I come full circle on this response and just want to encourage you with some substance that we are in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be.

     https://www.mediamatters.org/project-2025/heritage-foundation-president-celebrates-supreme-court-immunity-decision-we-are
4. Descendant Of Smith 4

   3 July 2024 at 1:50 pm

   When national say improved financial performance what do they mean. Do they want them to make a profit on rent charged?

   Last time this meant deferred maintenance while poor peoples rent went into the consolidated funds by way of special dividends.

   Housing New Zealand is expecting to pay the Crown a dividend of $118 million this financial year, the largest in five years.

   Opposition politicians have been urging the Government to take a smaller dividend from the agency that manages State houses, after reports of cold and mouldy houses.

   Housing New Zealand returned a $108 million dividend in the past financial year, the third largest ever paid.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/283700/english-defends-$118m-housing-nz-dividend

   “In fact, the Housing Minister refused to rule out scaling Kainga Ora back. We have seen this before – the last National government ended up with 1,500 fewer public homes than it started with and sucked out $576 million in dividends.

   https://www.labour.org.nz/news-release_another_announcement_still_no_funding_for_more_public_houses
5. joe90 5

   3 July 2024 at 2:06 pm

   Imagine that…

   //

   @AccountableGOP

   Chief Justice John Roberts at his confirmation hearing: “No one is above the law under our system and that includes the president. The president is fully bound by the law.” (Sept. 2005)

   https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1807882444663587082

   @AccountableGOP
   Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito in January 2006:

   “There is nothing that is more important for our republic than the rule of law. No person in this country, no matter how high or powerful, is above the law.”

   https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1807855254006124944

   @AccountableGOP

   Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch: “Nobody is above the law in this country, and that includes the president of the United States.” (March 2017)

   https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1808191057236000975

   @AccountableGOP

   Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh in September 2018: “Under the Constitution, the president is not above the law. No one is above the law…The president remains subject to the law.”

   https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1807835389865951253
   • newsense 5.1

     3 July 2024 at 3:56 pm

     Woe the Republic
6. newsense 6

   3 July 2024 at 4:00 pm

   Performance policing where National’s cops get tough on umbrellas. Reassure the rich if they ever see a poor person they can be shot.

   Police said it had resembled a Maori gang doing graffiti in the fevered imaginations of two passers by.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/armed-police-cordon-off-queenstown-waterfront-after-possible-sighting-of-firearm/WQADUDDDQFFNTN56O7S7UBXHVI/
   • Belladonna 6.1

     3 July 2024 at 7:13 pm

     I don't see any reference in the linked article to a "Maori gang doing graffiti" – what is the source of this statement?

     However, if there is a nutjob presenting as though they are cocking and aiming a firearm – I'd rather the police were called, and took action.

     From your linked article:

     "Senior Sergeant Glenn Wilkinson said a member of the public called police after a man was spotted walking along Marine Parade carrying what looked to be a hunting rifle and pointing it at people."

     "Wilkinson told Stuff CCTV footage showed the man carrying the umbrella as if it were a rifle, cocking it and pointing it at people"

     It seems clear that the situation was quickly scaled down, once the CCTV footage showed it was an umbrella rather than a rifle.

• Comments are now closed

• Log in
• Donate
• Contribute post

• Articles RSS