Open mike 03/11/2020

55 comments on “Open mike 03/11/2020 ”

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1. Andre 1

   3 November 2020 at 7:09 am

   On the idiocy of Nader, Stein and their voters, and why protest voting for a third party when the ballot choice really is a true binary just impedes making actual progress. With the corollary of how the likes of AOC and Bernie have showed that working within the binary is a much more successful way of achieving actual progress.

   https://www.salon.com/2020/11/02/dear-fellow-progressives-the-lesson-of-history-is-clear–vote-for-joe-biden/

   Yet again, thank whatever gods you will for MMP here, and the Labour government of the 80s for establishing the commission that recommended it, and the Bolger government of the 90s for the courage to put it a referendum, and the voters of the 90s for choosing MMP.
   • weka 1.1

     3 November 2020 at 9:05 am

     how much difference does it make? Of the people not voting Biden, how many are in states where Trump may or may not win?
     • Andre 1.1.1

       3 November 2020 at 9:17 am

       Nader's and Stein's campaigns have very likely delivered us the two worst presidents in our lifetimes.

       This time around, Who?ie Who?kins is still polling in the range of 0.5 to 1 %, according to 270towin's averages. So if there's a massive polling error and it comes down to <1% margins in a few critical states, then it could be the difference. Again.

       https://www.270towin.com/2020-polls-biden-trump/north-carolina/

       https://www.270towin.com/2020-polls-biden-trump/florida/

       https://www.270towin.com/2020-polls-biden-trump/pennsylvania/
       • Nic the NZer 1.1.1.1

         3 November 2020 at 11:04 am

         Getting all your best excuses in early?
         • Andre 1.1.1.1.1

           3 November 2020 at 1:21 pm

           Got anything to say about the idiocy of voting third party in a binary election? Any arguments against the points made either in my comments or the linked article?
           • Nic the NZer 1.1.1.1.1.1

             3 November 2020 at 1:54 pm

             No, your quite right of course. If someone doesn't agree with your political choices calling them a bunch of idiots is clearly the best way to change their mind.
             • McFlock …

               3 November 2020 at 3:27 pm

               If they're genuinely not going to vote against the current buffoon, any insult will likely go over their heads.
         • AB 1.1.1.1.2

           3 November 2020 at 1:34 pm

           Affluent centrists are pretty much immune to the sort of harm that a Joe Biden causes. They rightly loathe Trump, but don't get why some people just can't bring themselves to vote for either. Chris Hedges can get boring because he says the same few things over and over – but here he itemizes Biden's scorecard (link starts from 3m47s). I disagree with his conclusion, but it's well-argued.
           • Andre 1.1.1.1.2.1

             3 November 2020 at 1:57 pm

             Yeah, harm like opening a pathway for them to get healthcare.

             Harm like being part of the administration that created the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau, and being likely to appoint a director that will do what the bureau is intended to do.

             Harm like supporting measures to make it easier to vote.

             Harm like increasing infrastructure spending and improving mass transit.

             And so on and so on.

             Frankly, I have trouble understanding how Chris Hedges is taken seriously by anyone. I s'pose he's just part of that convergence moonbat segment that spends their time nursing and inflating grievances and fabricating false equivalences while ignoring real and substantial differences on issues that really matter.
       • weka 1.1.1.2

         3 November 2020 at 11:18 am

         you didn't answer my question Andre.
         • Andre 1.1.1.2.1

           3 November 2020 at 1:18 pm

           I've given you the current polling of green/left slow learners willing to waste their vote in a way that enables the re-election of the dayglo swampzilla diametrically opposed to their beliefs and values. In the states most likely to be critical, if that happens.

           If that's not answering your question, then what you intended your question to be, and what you actually asked, appear to be different things.
           • In Vino 1.1.1.2.1.1

             3 November 2020 at 11:53 pm

             I had not realised that verbosity and complexity could create such a smokescreen of righteousness.
2. Muttonbird 2

   3 November 2020 at 7:52 am

   Chris Bishop, eh? Hasn't learned a thing. The loss of his electorate seat must be hurting.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/123268596/rising-youth-crime-gang-violence-tackled-at-public-meeting-in-wainuiomata
   • Pataua4life 2.1

     3 November 2020 at 8:18 am

     Did you actually read the article? Sounds like one MP actually doing something and the other just all talk.
     • Muttonbird 2.1.1

       3 November 2020 at 8:40 am

       Did you read the article? The electorate MP had proposed a meeting on crime and safety for that date but was advised against it by Police.

       However, on the same day Andersen postponed her event, Bishop announced he would be hosting his own meeting, which went ahead on Monday night.

       Bishop can't help himself.
       • Sabine 2.1.1.1

         3 November 2020 at 10:01 am

         So it was dangeorus for the Labour guy but not the National guy? or did the reluctance of the coppers have something to do with the complaint of the community 'we call the police but they don't do much, if they show up at all'.

         Yes, i read the article, and frankly she should have shown up. Bishop is now in the opposition and he can do what he wants. And for what its worth, she could have shown up and she should have.
         • Muttonbird 2.1.1.1.1

           3 November 2020 at 10:08 am

           And by doing so would have gone against the advice of Police and community leaders.

           Perhaps you're right and the Police don't want to be exposed but it's also clear Bishop is already campaigning for 2023.

           Also, these issues don’t develop overnight. Perhaps black-ops Bishop should ask himself where such advocacy was in the years he held the seat.
           • Gabby 2.1.1.1.1.1

             3 November 2020 at 10:35 am

             If that encourages Labour to get on top of the issues, well then fine.
             • Muttonbird …

               3 November 2020 at 10:41 am

               It's interesting that while Andersen takes the advice of officials she has met with, Bishop does not.

               This adds to the maverick nature of the man, he who was responsible for hacking the budget last year.

               Who would trust him? Not Hutt South, clearly.
               • Poission …

                 3 November 2020 at 10:51 am

                 The threatened victims,went out and spoke up.They have had enough of the intimidation of gang violence,and the enslavement of their children by drug dealers,they have to live there.

                 Maybe Anderson should actually start working in her electorate,and start listening to the poor and threatened.
                 • Muttonbird …

                   3 November 2020 at 11:14 am

                   She did start working in her electorate. Organised a meeting on crime and community safety and alerted residents of that meeting just one week after the election.

                   Was advised against proceeding with the meeting at that time.

                   Read the article.
               • RedBaronCV …

                 3 November 2020 at 11:20 am

                 Did Bishop get the same advice from the police that Anderson got ? Or was something being played in the background. They turned out to Bishops meeting didn't they? Would they have gone to Andersons?
                 • Muttonbird …

                   3 November 2020 at 11:22 am

                   Unknown from the information in the article. There was at least one sergeant at the meeting but it's not known if it was sanctioned by Police.

                   I doubt Bishop would have bothered seeking advice from Police or community leaders about the meting. He does his own thing for political purposes.

                   This was a chance for Bishop to kick Anderson for having the temerity to win his seat.
               • Tricledrown …

                 3 November 2020 at 12:28 pm

                 Bishop behaving badly while telling others to behave better
                 • greywarshark …

                   3 November 2020 at 1:35 pm

                   Ginny Andersen has been Hutt South Labour MP since 2017 so should have built up a relationship with police by now. So hasn't been hesitant to front up to residents because of being a newbie and feeling her way so to speak. She will have to be more upfront advocating for the locals and show herself committed to walk the walk and not just do the talk.

                   …Ginny studied Te Reo Maori at secondary school and university and previously taught night classes as part of Adult and Community Education. These days she donates her time to the local timebank and runs Te Reo classes at the local library when she can.

                   Over the past three years Ginny has combined her professional experience and her personal passions into being a strong advocate for the Hutt South electorate as well as in her roles on the Justice Select Committee and as Deputy-Chairperson of the Governance and Administration Select Committee. https://www.labour.org.nz/ginnyandersen
                   • greywarshark …

                     3 November 2020 at 3:48 pm

                     I got confused – it seemed as if Ginny Andersen had been MP for a while, but I see that Chris Bishop was actually Hutt South 2017-2020. So perhaps my suggestion that Andersen is a bit new in the post and didn't want to barge in was right. She could instead be talking to the local commander and looking at behind the scenes methods.

                     If Bishop wanted to have a meeting, good. Perhaps the good systems that he brought in during his reign can be continued? How effective has he been? I'll eat my pie if he has been good for advancing harmony and better conditions during his work period as MP.
               • Gabby …

                 3 November 2020 at 2:10 pm

                 I wonder what the basis for that advice was. Mind yerown bidniss?
   • WeTheBleeple 2.2

     3 November 2020 at 8:33 am

     If someone had shot up my neighborhood several nights in a row I'd be wanting officials etc to front and at least feign reassurance to the community under stress. Whatever color pin they wear.
   • Treetop 2.3

     3 November 2020 at 3:20 pm

     Sounds like there needs to be some restructuring in the police to sort out issues which occur like in Wainuiomata. This area is in a deep basin.

     Is the police station there operational 24 hrs a day or do police need to come from the Hutt Valley?
3. KSaysHi 3

   3 November 2020 at 9:16 am

   Stuff powered by microbes. Using plants as switches, just touch and you power up light and sound. How cool is that?

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbsen7kce1Y
4. Muttonbird 4

   3 November 2020 at 12:21 pm

   Hey Joe. How do you put a tweet up here?
   • joe90 4.1

     3 November 2020 at 12:40 pm

     Cut and trim the url back to the question mark and paste.
     • Muttonbird 4.1.1

       3 November 2020 at 2:45 pm

       Someone asked to use the music

       https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1323320216038776832?
       • McFlock 4.1.1.1

         3 November 2020 at 3:33 pm

         Stephen Joyce will be pissed 🙂
         • joe90 4.1.1.1.1

           3 November 2020 at 5:17 pm

           But it was pretty legal..

           Not only is Eminem’s decision to allow the Biden campaign to use “Lose Yourself” a rare move for the typically ad-averse rapper, but it actually comes a few years after he successfully sued a New Zealand political party for using a “Lose Yourself” knockoff in a campaign ad. Back in 2014, National Party candidate Steven Joyce released an ad with an instrumental track that was very similar to “Lose Yourself,” to the point where the track even had the not-so-subtle name, “Eminem-esque.” In 2017, Eminem won the case and the National Party was forced to pay $415,000 to the rapper’s publisher.

           https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/eminem-lose-yourself-joe-biden-campaign-ad-1084887/
     • Muttonbird 4.1.2

       3 November 2020 at 5:08 pm

       And thank you for the tip.
5. greywarshark 5

   3 November 2020 at 1:23 pm

   Are these freemarket/neolib trade agreements we have signed preventing controlling the housing market in an effective way that aids the NZ citizens who want to become 'wealth creators', against the world's financial manipulators? We entered into the trade agreements to ensure that we can sell to the rest of the world without negative barriers so that we can grow the country's GDP and earn overseas so that we can import their machinery and such.

   But it appears that we have given more than we can ever get back, and it is an ongoing drain of our resources from our hands to others, or from here to other countries and econonomies. Just recently, another concern has been raised about water and its misuse – Omihi Creek in Hurunui which has a permit that could enable water bottling. https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/FMfcgxwKjKlNRMJPBTJZMHLvhkjzxjfr

   Some of us marched in the streets to ensure that our government knew we were watching treaty negotiations and didn't want what they offered. Our local Gnat MP Nick Smith used to sneer at marchers quoting the usual put-down of Rent-a-Crowd. We obviously didn't have sufficient money to buy the size of crowd that would be listened to. Perhaps just one or two men like Peter Talley could make a difference if on the side of the people.

   Some snappy info on trade agreements and the WTO and MFAT –
   https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/trade/free-trade-agreements/ (Can't find any mention of date on this page so don't know what status the information has.)

   MFAT leads New Zealand's free trade agreement (FTA) negotiations. FTAs open up market opportunities, streamline processes, reduce costs, and create more certainty and security for companies doing business overseas. They help New Zealand businesses become and remain more competitive in overseas markets.

   We have successfully completed ten free trade agreements.

   We remember this one: The Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) is a free trade agreement involving 11 countries in the Pacific region.

   New Zealand is in negotiations to conclude five free trade agreements, with another process towards negotiations underway.

   Free Trade Agreements concluded but not in force – Six.

   and
   https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/trade/our-work-with-the-wto/

   Are we left with any wiggle room to make and enforce decisions to benefit little us? Or are we like the tiger? worms in my compost heap, reacting, moving, twisting, looking for suitable food and vulnerable to changes of temperature and moisture? I'm a bit more complex than my worms which, I'm wondering, might have a better life than a human, knowing much but having no or little agency in the world.
6. Andre 6

   3 November 2020 at 1:34 pm

   When you're senator for a picturesque western state like Colorado, facing a tough re-election, it's natural to try to capitalise on the dramatic natural beauty in-state. Like this:

   

   But I guess if you're a Repug, screwing up just comes effortlessly.

   https://twitter.com/JamesDakinOwens/status/1318186639592771587

   (The Grand Canyon is entirely in Arizona, a long way away from Colorado)
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.1

     3 November 2020 at 2:55 pm

     People of the Land… : )

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYTQ7__NNDI
     • Andre 6.1.1

       3 November 2020 at 3:03 pm

       That clip never gets old.

       The best bit is watching Cleavon Little desperately trying to hold a straight face and there's just the tiniest quirks around his mouth and eyes to show what a battle he's having to not crack up too early.
7. RedBaronCV 7

   3 November 2020 at 1:49 pm

   Well I see covid has escaped from the fisher people into the community just as they are about to release some of them. Given the time line did the staff member catch it at about day 10 and if it is infectious early on how did it get passed around in isolation? Why do we assume it is safe to let anybody go.

   And are the fishing companies going to meet all the extra costs of testing cleaning supermarkets and schools etc etc.

   And one other thing – given that the passage time for say a car carrier is about 21 days to japan – why did the the fishing companies not send the deep sea trawlers up to Russia to collect these crews -apart from the few needed to steer the thing – do the fishing bit – keeping the crews entirely offshore the whole time – drop them off when finished and then unload the cargo here – I assume. They would have had to get themselves organised of course.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.1

     3 November 2020 at 2:32 pm

     In the not only, but also…….

     "• The number of places available for managed isolation for Christmas are dwindling and the Ministry of Business, Innovation, and Employment has issued a warning to any overseas New Zealanders wanting to get home for the festive period.

     MBIE announced yesterday its new system was now "becoming fully booked" in the lead-up to the big day."

     https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/christchurch-quarantine-worker-has-covid

     And yea got to wonder at sealord et al. Slave ships still exist. (But I bet the Russ/Ukrainians pretty happy at the Accommodation level…..)
     • greywarshark 7.1.1

       3 November 2020 at 3:26 pm

       Something I noticed once again was the mention of sharing of rooms by the fishers which is thought to have contributed to the community infection that has emerged. It was said again too that it had probably been to save costs. Surely the government is in charge of the way that people are held in isolation. There is no way that they would be under-mining their system of single isolation to save costs, surely. Therefore it has been decided by the shipping company/ies. And no way should they be allowed to make decisions that interfere with the protocols set by the government. This is really bad and the government should ensure that this does not happen again. The fishing companies should have to pay for the costs resulting from the community case that has arisen.

       I see that the professionals are saying that hotels are not satisfactory for the job and that better housing for those in isolation should be provided. And as it is constantly in the news about the continuing rampage that the virus is on, it would be a good idea for some smart pre-fab building designers be brought in to find a suitable version from what is available and something go in toot sweet at a suitable location. It has to be well made and be expected to last say 20 years, and will pay for itself in that time if not for Covid then useful for some other purpose in our fraught times.

       Dr Nick Wilson and others are the voice of reason and the government must listen and act on their suggestions. No time to rest on our laurels or any other plant of comfort!

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/429729/covid-19-community-case-border-system-needs-urgent-review
       Wilson said people in isolation at Sudima were sharing rooms which was a breach of normal quarantine practice. Even when this was not occurring, hotels are not designed for quarantine, with "shared airspace" and unsuitable ventilation systems.

       "This is an area that needs an urgent review. It's not adequate that workers are being placed at risk.
       "We've had a nurse infected, a maintenance worker, a port worker. These are system failures because we should be stopping all cases at the border."

       Wilson repeated his suggestion for purpose-built quarantine facilities, at sites like Ohakea airbase, where staff could live on the base for two-to-three week periods at a time so infections are contained.

       New Zealand also needs to reduce the number of infected people coming into the country from areas where the pandemic is out of control with measures like pre-flight testing, and move facilities out of Auckland, he said.

       "Basically we're having border control failures every two weeks and we could end up with another Auckland August outbreak if we don't improve."
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.1.1.1

         3 November 2020 at 4:01 pm

         "Sealord, Independent Fisheries and Maruha Nichiro are covering the flights, managed isolation and other costs. "

         https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-christchurch/cashmere-high-student-close-contact-community-case-principal-says

         'Sealord chief executive Doug Paulin said while his company is losing money daily, getting the boats out with a delay is better than not getting the boats out at all.

         "We are willing to wait until there is no risk to the community of New Zealand to bring our crew out of managed isolation."'

         https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/sealord-boss-happy-delay-operations-until-no-covid-19-risk-community

         Gotta wonder how all this passed the test? The Reality Test
     • Stuart Munro 7.1.2

       3 November 2020 at 5:13 pm

       The food ought to be better at least. Mind, Ukrainian cooks kick ass – I've had chicken gizzard stew that was absolutely fabulous. The bread's always good too – but the rule for observers used to be, on former soviet vessels, to bring soy sauce & wasabi – there was always jack mackeral for sashimi – second only to tuna. On some ships there was tuna too.
8. RedBaronCV 8

   3 November 2020 at 3:15 pm

   And Labour sends its first group of supporters down the river. Would it really hurt, even if it is confined at first to only larger workplaces and for the opt in period to last for a only a specified period of time to actually have an opt in period so unions can have a discussion with prospective members at least? How on earth will we ever get to a modern workplace with more worker input right up to board level if we don't start somewhere. And he obviously has no idea just how much pressure is put onto anyone who wants to be in a union to desist.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300148639/new-workplace-minister-michael-wood-says-unions-need-to-attract-new-members-themselves
   • greywarshark 8.1

     3 November 2020 at 3:38 pm

     RBCV Why not write and say that to Michael Wood. If we want things to happen in the next three years we will have to be proactive and questioning, and follow up again. And if nothing changes express displeasure publicly.

     I think I heard that Auckland Water person has just stepped down – was receiving $800,000 pa salary. MPs don't get that but it seems that the belief of Treasury and business that workers were getting complacent and being paid too much which apparently prompted neolib introduction, has remained with the upper levels of management.

     We need MPs to work their butts off for us, not say airily that the peeps can manage on their own while they lord it over all. That reminds me of Lord of the Rings; perhaps some politicians think that the beltway is a giant ring encircling them and giving them magical properties over us hobbits with bad habits!
9. greywarshark 9

   3 November 2020 at 4:04 pm

   It's getting to the stage where tourists are wise not to come to NZ. Travel all the way here and find that there is a mickey mouse attitude to caring for the customer! We have had one father from Scotland I think, criticising us roundly some years back. Justified too I thought. Then there has been the hands-off attitude to the White Island tourism venture, and I think very poor reporting from scientific checks, with not enough advice as to possible eruption.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/429760/inquest-into-fatal-mt-ruapehu-ski-bus-crash-begins-hears-from-bereaved-father
   The inquest into Hannah Francis' death, held before Coroner Brigitte Windley, began this morning in Auckland.
   Hannah died on 28 July, 2018 after a shuttle bus operated by Ruapehu Alpine Lifts crashed into a bank and rolled on to its side during its descent from the Tūroa skifield…

   The driver, who cannot be named for legal reasons, could not get the bus into gear nor brake effectively, Francis said. Other passengers started to scream and panic, and Francis later learned a passenger opened the back door and jumped out.
   "It became clear to me that within half a minute to a minute that we were going to crash, and the only question was how bad it was going to be," Francis said

   The 24-year-old bus was later revealed to have failed its Certificate of Fitness nine times.
   The fleet was subsequently retired by Ruapehu Alpine Lifts.
   • Andre 9.1

     3 November 2020 at 5:20 pm

     I've followed plenty of the old RAL buses down the Ohakune Mountain Road.

     Some of the drivers knew how to use the engine for most of the braking, others … did not. The ones that didn't engine brake well would have seriously smoking brakes several kilometres before the crash site, to the point I'm a little surprised I never saw any of them crash because of cooked brakes.

     I'm guessing this case was the one where the luck ran out, and the brakes totally cooked with the linings overheating and/or boiling the brake fluid so the brake fluid couldn't transfer pressure.
10. Adrian 10

    3 November 2020 at 4:54 pm

    People must be stupid , if you choose to go on to an active volcano then what do you fucking expect, they don't erupt to a timetable. And in the unfortunate case of the young woman from Scotland , she was jumping out of a plane over mountains, what could possibly go wrong. Well the plane could crash on take-off, but that's what they do sometimes.

    It's not the country's fault that shit happens. We could cure the problem by making sure nobody leaves home ever, and nobody comes here to do stuff. Problem solved.

    Or is it, 90% of people die in their own home, well thats us fucked then..
    • greywarshark 10.1

      4 November 2020 at 1:20 pm

      I'm just stupid Adrian. I know that you are volatile and great at recriminations sprayed around like a hippotomus' rear end, yet I stopped and read some of your comment. I think it's really 'off'. Well I've only got myself to blame! Shit happens.
11. logie97 11

    3 November 2020 at 6:04 pm

    Chris Hipkins was fronting in his new ministerial capacity at today's Covid briefing alongside Dr Bloomfield.

    He was asked several questions which he appeared to front-foot quite assuredly.

    However there were questions that required Dr Woods to take, because Hipkins said that he is in the process of discussing/handing over from Dr Woods and should be able to answer in a couple of days. Might I suggest that Dr Woods should have fronted today's session as part of the handover and at least portrayed an image that the government is on top of the issues raised in the questions.

    Not a good look in my opinion.
12. greywarshark 12

    3 November 2020 at 10:33 pm

    I wonder what affect a presidential change might have on poor Julian Assange? How is he? Guess.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2020/10/20/qa-assanges-lawyer-jennifer-robinson
    Al Jazeera: What would a typical day during the trial look like for Assange?
    Robinson: During Assange’s confinement in the high-security Belmarsh prison in London, he was strip-searched whenever he arrived at court. He was driven back and forth from Old Bailey court at the back of the prison van. After a day in court, he would be driven “home” to Belmarsh and then strip-searched again. During the trial, he would spend his days between the cells downstairs in the court building and the courtroom upstairs.

    He still spends 23 hours a day in his cell. Although he has not formally been placed in solitary confinement, the conditions of his detention effectively amount to solitary confinement.

    Al Jazeera: When was the last time Assange saw his family?
    Assange has had no visitors for six months. He had no meetings with family since all visits were cancelled. We, his lawyers, could also not do videoconferencing with him. The medical advice was that he should not do videoconferencing.

    Because of his pre-existing healthcare concerns, he could only get phone calls. I am not in a position to comment on his health. But in his visits to psychiatric facilities, he has made clear that he is determined to [take his own life] if he gets extradited.
    .

    Aljazeeras graphics for info on USA politics.
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/2/infographic-all-you-need-to-about-us-elections

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • greywarshark 12.1

      4 November 2020 at 1:22 pm

      I thought it was very relevant about the sort of goings on that the USA is deep into. Still I know that Julian A is regarded as irrelevant to some here.
13. greywarshark 13

    4 November 2020 at 4:04 pm

    From Tim Watkin – I don't know if this has been up already but it sounds balanced and realistic on the Labour lineup of Ministers and portfolios.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/429682/analysis-ardern-s-new-cabinet-in-safe-hands-but-nothing-flashy

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