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Open mike 03/06/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:33 am, June 3rd, 2014 - 256 comments
Categories: open mike, uncategorized - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

256 comments on “Open mike 03/06/2014”

  1. “..Paul Krugman Utterly Destroys Inequality Deniers – and Piketty’s Critics..

    ..Columnist lays bare the real motivation for denying the obvious economic reality..”


  2. Paul 2

    Tim Groser trying to defend the government’s failure to tackle climate change on RNZ. Failing.
    Espiner asked him 2 or 3 decent questions.

    • Bearded Git 2.1

      Yep Paul I thought Espiner was good this AM hassling Groser.

      But this is the first time he has been good-maybe someone has given him a rocket about being even-handed? It is his job after all.

    • hasn’t the excuse from national always been:..’we can’t do anything until others do’..

      ..well..now that obama is ‘doing something’..

      ..what will be their bullshit excuse to just-do-nothing! now..?

      • Tracey 2.2.1

        slight correction. Obama is saying he will do something… And lil johnny key will trot along behind him.

  3. (my comment on the rightwing ratbags in labour..moaning about internet/mana..)

    (ed:..i mean..goff/shearer/hipkins..?

    ..ya gotta laff..!..eh..?..

    ..those rightwingers in labour are probably terrified labour might get bullied into being a real ‘labour party’..

    ..not neo-lib/rand-ite/total sellouts of the poor – that the goff/shearer/hipkins coven wd rather be.)

    ..i am actually starting to get the real shits about/with labour..

    ..’plonkers’ like davis..(‘sgt schultz’..?)

    ..labor now against a carbon-taxing scheme they once supported..?

    ..the ‘we will win all maori-seats!’-bullshit..

    ..the list goes on and on..

    ..i’m about the point where i want to see their vote collapse..

    ..and those voters to turn to the greens/internet/mana..

    ..as the only ‘left’ parties offering any real change..

    ..labour just want more of the fucken same..

    ..but with them in charge..

    ..fuck them..!

    • Chooky 3.1

      +100 phillip ure…like an old oligarchy some Labour MPs have a sense of entitlement

      …it seems to be inherent in human nature that some because of where they areor to whom they were born , feel that they can lord it over others

      • Chooky 3.1.1

        …and this condition is not restricted to the Right wing…it is found in the Left as well…and it usually comes in the guise of ‘holier than thou’ or keeping the Left movement pure…ie i am purer than thou , i am fighting to keep us pure, i am the bastion of purity, only I keep the code and know the True path

        ….in actual fact it is a form of self righteous fundamentalism and it is an inherently undemocratic frame of mind born of a privileged psyche…i am better than thou because of who i am


        ….it has led to all sorts of crimes against humanity

    • The Al1en 3.2

      Whilst never being one to give support to mumblefu*k and buttkiss, I’m not seeing right wing in any thing they’ve written. Are you sure you’re not just a little blinkered there mr ure? Maybe a little sleep still stuck around the eyes? Maybe just an ultra fanboy?

      Goff ‘‘pure political opportunism’’, citing his previous donations to ACT MP John Banks, now the subject of a court case. ‘‘He wants to be able to influence and control politicians.’’
      Goff ‘‘very critical’’ of National for exploiting MMP and failing to implement recommendations from the Electoral Commission to abolish the provision. ‘‘I’m scarcely likely to endorse another rort …I’m being entirely consistent,’’ ‘‘It will be the decision of the party leadership…but I see problems in creating a coalition where the philosophies and principle of people that you are trying to enter into a coalition with is unclear because they seem to be coming from diametrically opposed positions.’’

      Shearer also used the social media site to write that although he wished the Internet-Mana ‘‘marriage’’ well, he knew ‘‘it’s going to end badly.’’

      Hipkins ‘‘The good old days, when political parties formed from movements. Now all it takes is a couple of million and some unprincipled sellouts.’’

      • just saying 3.2.1

        Where is Labour’s “purity” and “principle” where it matters – in representing the interests of the most disadvantaged 20 percent? Allegedly Labour’s core constituency, but they are more than happy to throw them under the bus to further their own personal interests and ambitions.
        Principle my arse, they disgust me.

        • Clemgeopin

          NO ONE in ANY party or in ANY group of parties can effect ANY change in ANYTHING one desires UNLESS there is at least 50% of support from THE VOTERS. Elementary maths and elementary politics.
          Ask yourself if you prefer to shuffle the progressive votes sideways and possibly lose the election or grow the vote and more possibly win the election for the progressive block?

    • Tiger Mountain 3.3

      The interminable exchanges in the columns of The Standard over David Shearer. And now he is revealed; a right faction bag man as suspected. Labour has had years to get its act together (no pun etc) since Clark handed the electorate Goff. Her departure was the time to democratise the party not anoint a successor.

      Labour has had years to come up with super at 67, retaining the Reserve Bank Act and not removing GST from fruit and veg. Sure they have policy on CGT and asset sales etc but as Phillip alludes to seem determined to lose the election by not using MMP strategy to any extent let alone fully.

      Meanwhile IMP has organised in mere months to bring something to politics that seems to have attracted support already. And no, mere cash cannot buy that type of experience and ability. Kiwibank, paid parental leave and banishing youth rates were Alliance initiatives which Labour grudgingly accepted. At least there is now political room for everyone to the left of National, but the fact is Key will not be denied a third term without an outbreak of strategic co-operation on the left.

      The friendly Labour people that comment here will not like the ear bashing they are getting but the real life implications of a 3 term dirty filthy tory government are getting literally too much to bear for many of us.

      • phillip ure 3.3.1

        “..but the real life implications of a 3 term dirty filthy tory government are getting literally too much to bear for many of us..”

        ..+ 1..

    • Draco T Bastard 3.4

      .i’m about the point where i want to see their vote collapse..

      I’ve been at that point for some time. Best thing that could happen to this country is a Greens led government.

      labour just want more of the fucken same..

      ..but with them in charge..


    • David H 3.5

      I agree totally. What’s the point of Supporting Labour? Because they seemed not to have realised that that the LEFT Block can win the election. But Labour alone can lose the fucking thing!

  4. Chooky 4

    So what Goff, Hipkins, Mallard, Davis and Shearer are really saying is…

    By Martyn Bradbury / June 3, 2014

    “This flexing of muscles and direct challenge to Cunliffe’s leadership is occurring while Labour’s factions thrash out the Party list. This sudden feigned political morality sounds more like the realisation of how far they’re dropping in that list…..


    • The Al1en 4.1

      Bradbury would say that, wouldn’t he? Definitely a tool, but at least we know who’s using him now.

      • Chooky 4.1.1

        who is using Bradbury now? ( who has used him before?)…and why is he a tool?.

        …he makes a lot of sense to me

        • The Al1en

          For real? As far as I’m concerned he lost credibility ages ago, and certainly, since he took dotcom’s shilling.

          • phillip ure

            shit allen..!

            ..you must be really dark on national..

            ..and their spending $2.5 million to lie their way to winning the last election..

            ..for national to moan about ‘money influencing politics’..

            ..is beyond fucken irony…

            • The Al1en

              Of course I’m dark on national, I’m an age old left winger from last century, growing up in thatcher’s Britain, working class, when working class was the lowest of the low, before they invented the underclass.

              What is your point? Apart from inferring right wing in the comments from Vance’s stuff page on three social media comments by Goff, DS and buttkiss where there is none.

          • Chooky

            @The Allen..so you are anti Laila Harre , Hone Harawira and the Mana/ Internet Party ….and you believe Martyn Bradbury is being used by Dotcom…..interesting

            ….i wonder where you are coming from?….care to elucidate

            • The Al1en

              Certainly against the internet party, Harre was okay, but has lost a little of my respect in siding up to kim, Hone’s alright as far as leaders of 1% minority parties go.

              “and you believe Martyn Bradbury is being used by Dotcom…..interesting”

              And you think he’s not?

              • Chooky

                Quite frankly i dont think Bomber Bradbury is anyone’s tool….and he makes up his own mind….and like many many other New Zealanders he wants a Left coalition government……No I dont think Martyn Bradbury is being used by Dotcom!

                “Interference in the Kim Dotcom case?”

                By Martyn Bradbury / June 2, 2014

                “One of the worst lies being perpetrated by the mainstream media and Government mouthpieces is that Kim Dotcom has funded a political party to interfere in his extradition case…..

                The sheer double standards being applied in this lie are remarkable because from the very first day, this Government have interfered with the Kim Dotcom case. The Campbell Live timeline establishes the process with which this interference has taken place and we now wait on the Snowden revelations and KDCs own evidence to fill in the details.

                On top of the unseen political interference, we now have public statements by senior members of the Government cheerleading their lawyers into ‘nailing’ Kim Dotcom…
                Screen Shot 2014-06-02 at 7.41.14 am

                …how is what Bill English is saying here not interfering in the judicial process? Publicly hoping his Government’s lawyers nail someone before the court case has even been heard? How is that double standard allowed to go unchallenged by the mainstream media? Is English putting pressure on the prosecution the way Maurice Williamson tried to heavy the NZ Police into protecting one of National’s donors?

                So let’s just get this straight in terms of the mainstream media narrative here, when the National Party instigates interference, it is not interference. When Opposition Parties question the level of National Party interference, THAT IS political interference.



        • Bearded Git

          +1 Chook

      • Tiger Mountain 4.1.2

        Bomber bashing is a popular sport it seems, he deserves much praise imo.

        Instrumental in The Daily Blog, second only to The Standard in left politics. Critics should try running a blog and sorting all the technical issues never mind the torrent of nutters that free of charge blather on.

        And Bomber has a guest column in a prominent msm newspaper The NZ Herald, which should see Bradury banisher Jim Morar choking on his croissant on Sundays.

        • TheContrarian

          “Bomber bashing is a popular sport it seems”

          Because he is a sanctimoniousness and dishonest windbag

          • Chooky

            @ The Contrarian…well if you say so from the Right wing …this adds to his credentials imo

            • TheContrarian

              Right-wing? I’m a green voter you muppet.

              • BM

                Tory swine.

              • Pasupial


                Indeed? Yet your first comment when you came off ban in May stated:

                As far astroturfing goes you’ll get none from me. I haven’t the fainest [sic] idea who to vote for and support no party at present.

                I don’t disagree with everything you type, but it’s hard to square that comment with your being a committed Green Party supporter.

                • TheContrarian

                  As the election creeps closer my decision becomes clearer.
                  If an election were held today I would vote Green.

                  • weka

                    Right wing people can vote GP, it’s not against the rules. I’m sure you are not the only one TC.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Lots of people voted GP party vote and chose a National candidate for their electorate MP, not a Labour one.

              • Gosman

                Apparently the Greens are going for soft Tories like you now. Or so states Mr Bradbury.

          • Tracey

            so, he and hoots should be the left and right commentators. Different side of the same coin

        • Chooky

          Tiger Mountain…Agreed !…Bradbury is a positive and articulate force for the Left imo…hence this:

          “Brothers and Sisters – the Left are never going to get it this good – why you must vote this election”

          By Martyn Bradbury / June 3, 2014

          “We don’t want to just replace a Government, we want to change it

          ….The righteous cynicism many voters feel is matched by an intellectual existential Russel Brand mantra that legitimises apathy. Those are difficult arguments to overcome when so many political examples jade us election after election.

          That’s why I think the possibility of a Labour-Green-Internet MANA majority should thrill any genuine progressive throughout NZ and call on their involvement.

          What I think many still fail to grasp about MMP is that it’s one of the most representative democratic systems in the world and that every vote counts, and in this election there is the real possibility that the most progressive Government this country has ever seen may be the result and with that kind of majority comes the real ability to implement policy that is socially just and environmental.

          Cynicism shouldn’t cloud our judgement, it should sharpen it.

          A Labour-Green-Internet MANA majority is a genuinely exciting prospect, and one that progressives would be foolish to ignore if they really want to see the back of John Key….


          • The Al1en

            “A Labour-Green-Internet MANA majority is a genuinely exciting prospect, and one that progressives would be foolish to ignore if they really want to see the back of John Key”

            That’s bollocks. Like you only want to see the back of key if you vote for dotcom or you’re not progressive.

            Well, I’m totally exited by the prospect of a Green Labour government as it’s one that progressives would be foolish to ignore if they really want to see the back of John Key.

            Now rip that government to bits and show your left credentials… But only if you’re not taking the $8k pay cheque.

            • blue leopard

              That’s bollocks. Like you only want to see the back of key if you vote for dotcom or you’re not progressive.

              That is a pretty poor reading of what Bradbury was saying.

              I’m o.k with a Labour and Green government – however you would be hard-pushed to convince me that having Mana and the Internet party involved wouldn’t make it more progressive. It seems to me that this is one of the points Martyn is making.

              It is pretty obvious that you could vote for either one of those 4 parties and still be progressive and want National out – Mana or the Internet party, however, are included in the options of parties you can vote for to achieve those ends and dismissing them out of hand is to ignore these two parties capacity to achieve the end of ousting National and having a more progressive government.

              This is the meaning I got out of Bradbury’s article. I think that ‘vote for Dotcom or you are supporting the Nats’ is neither a fair nor accurate reading of the article – it is ridiculous understanding to read from that article.

              • The Al1en

                “Rob Salmond nails it. Bomber is going a bit nuts and demonstrating his grasp of reality in politics.”

                “GREG PRESLAND’S… SAYS:
                3 JUNE, 2014 – 10:52
                Bomber should stick to real estate.”

                Happy to defer to these two fine examples of left wing bloggers. 🙂

                [It was not me. It is some troll who managed to get their comment approved using my name. For the record I enjoy Bomber’s passion and determination. Give me one Bomber for a thousand intellectual lefties decrying the current state of left wing politics any day – MS]

                • blue leopard

                  ‘Fine articles’ ??

                  You are happy simply to cite an ‘article’ that provides no reasoning – rather just draws similar conclusions to your own sans reasoning? That leaves you highly open to being manipulated and manipulating others. This approach doesn’t hold water with me.
                  ( I suggest you go and read my comment on that thread if you wish to find further out about what view I take toward Salmond’s article..)

                  You haven’t addressed the points I made. How do you get ‘vote for dotcom or else’ out of Bradbury’s article?

                  • The Al1en

                    “‘Fine articles’ ??”

                    Actually it was “fine examples of left wing bloggers”

                    • blue leopard

                      You think 2 ‘examples of blogging’ that diss another leftwing blogger and provide no reasoning are ‘fine examples of left wing bloggers’.

                      Heck, if your definition of left-wing is mindless divisiveness/attack – then fair enough. Sounds more like a right-wing framing of the leftwing, though, if you asked me. (You didn’t? oh…. 🙂 )

                    • The Al1en

                      “You think 2 ‘examples of blogging’ that diss another leftwing blogger and provide no reasoning are ‘fine examples of left wing bloggers’.”

                      Just my opinion, but if I have to give a caveat, I’ll say I’ve always found their posts, comments and blogs to be informative, articulate and mostly they resonate in a positive manner.

                      “Sounds more like a right-wing framing of the leftwing”

                      Which doesn’t say much about your comprehension, if you ask me (even though you didn’t).

                    • blue leopard

                      “Sounds more like a right-wing framing of the leftwing”

                      Which doesn’t say much about your comprehension, if you ask me (even though you didn’t).


                      That the two provided articles weren’t simply two comments sounding off about someone else’s opinion without any reasons provided

                      or that the right-wing framing of the definition of left-wing is mindless divisiveness/attack?

                      I’m beginning to think that rightwing framing isn’t to far from the truth; it appears there are plenty on the left who can’t tell the difference between analysis/ raising discussion points/cooperation and ad hominem put-downs…. 🙁

                    • The Al1en

                      “I’m beginning to think that rightwing framing isn’t to far from the truth”

                      Are you saying I’m right wing framing the left?

                      “it appears there are plenty on the left who can’t tell the difference between analysis/ raising discussion points/cooperation and ad hominem put-downs””

                      Congratulations on being the only lefty in the village 😆

                    • blue leopard

                      …what a cheeky smart-arse Al1ien you turned out to be….

                      ( 🙂 )

                    • The Al1en

                      “…what a cheeky smart-arse Al1ien you turned out to be….”


                • The Al1en

                  “It was not me. It is some troll who managed to get their comment approved using my name.”

                  That’s pretty poor stuff on their part, but I still stand by the compliment.

                  “Give me one Bomber for a thousand intellectual lefties decrying the current state of left wing politics any day”

                  I’d accept half a bomber for the bottom drawer or back of the wardrobe.

                  • blue leopard

                    p.s. I apologise for spelling your name wrong Al1en, that was an error.

                    p.s.s Oh dear, another one bites the dust; that means there is only one person you can cite as ‘fine examples of left wing bloggers’ [who diss another very active left-winger] …ah well, better luck next time, smarty pants 😉

                    • The Al1en

                      “p.s. I apologise for spelling your name wrong Al1en, that was an error.”

                      No apology needed.

                      “p.s.s Oh dear, another one bites the dust; that means there is only one person you can cite as ‘fine examples of left wing blogger”

                      I still think MS is a fine left wing blogger.

                      “smarty pants”

                      I go commando like Kate, so smart arse was right in the first place 😉

              • Tracey

                as opposed to

                For every willing buyer theres a willing martyr
                I will pay for the right to hit my children when and where they like

                No wonder hoots is spinning on radio this morning.

          • Pasupial


            “Bradbury is a positive and articulate force for the Left”; I do agree, but he is also not without faults. Chief of which is to let a nice turn of phrase trump factual accuracy.

            Though Tiger Mountain is almost too restrained to call him; “Instrumental in The Daily Blog, second only to The Standard in left politics”. As, on top of editing, he damned near writes half of it (though more in publishing a large number of pithy short articles, than the longer more thoughtful pieces). TDB gets more page views than TS, and that’s after just over a year of its existence (though admittedly a lot may be just looking at the Daily Gallery or other click-bait).

            • Tiger Mountain

              Bomber ‘advertises’ on facebook regularly too which gets eyeballs. I like his sawn off shottie style word smithing, there are plenty of paragraph polishers around and they get it wrong too sometimes e.g. Pundit.

        • Gosman

          According to Mr Bradbury the Daily Blog is better than The Standard in terms of it’s popularity.

          • Paul

            Isn’t that one of your arguments for Slater’s sewer?

          • Tiger Mountain

            I like to think they complement each other. Every writer at the Standard brings different knowledge and networks with them. And a great depth and diversity of writers at “The Daily Blog”, not all of whom are regular contributors, plus it is sponsored by several old fashioned blue collar unions. It must have something going for it, with even herr Gosman patronising it.

            • Chooky

              +100 Tiger Mountain.. re the Standard and the Daily Blog: “I like to think they complement each other”.

              There are some heavy weight Lefties on the Daily Blog eg Jane Kelsey and Nicky Hager…not to mention the regulars

              ….you dont have to agree with them all the time …in fact i frequently disagree but to completely dis Martyn Bradbury is stupid or worse!

    • The Al1en 4.2

      “This sudden feigned political morality sounds more like the realisation of how far they’re dropping in that list…..”

      All have safe seats. If they’re being de-selected and put on the list, then that would be a story.

    • David H 4.3

      Then they had better work bloody hard to get re-elected then.

  5. DH 5

    Why does Labour let Bill English get away with pushing this nett taxpayer nonsense?



    The man is Minister of finance and he’s presenting misleading accounts. Surely Labour have someone who can do maths and work out the statistics properly?

    For those wondering; for accounting purposes all welfare beneficiaries are counted as taxpayers and Crown tax receipts include tax on welfare payments. At the end of March 2013, 310,000 working-age people were receiving a main benefit. They are included in those figures on ‘nett taxpayers’

    I don’t know the exact figures but if we assume an average benefit of around $20k before tax it would make up $6.2 billion of the “transfers received” in English’s chart and less than $1billion of the tax paid…. all in the lower income households groups.

    Main benefits are not a redistribution of wealth from rich to poor. Every (working) taxpayer pitches in for those. But because benefits are low the welfare beneficiaries show up in the low income households in English’s chart and paint a completely false and misleading picture of taxpayers. That has nothing to do with redistribution, it is entirely down to the amount of their benefits.

    As for English crowing about those on $150k+ paying more of the tax. Well in 2008 there were 203,000 households earning $150k+ and now there’s 249,000. Not exactly a surprise that group is paying more tax is it.

    I find it quite disturbing that a Minister of Finance propagates such misleading financial information. He is supposed to be the country’s top accountant. It’s also a bit worrying that the opposition don’t seem to have anyone competent enough with numbers to figure out where it’s all wrong.

    • Tracey 5.1

      All they have to say is

      Bill english is misleading people again, and hand out a brief fact sheet stating as you have. Dont waste time explaining it, make the short statement, and do it over and over again.

      Its what national does, but without any supporting fact sheet. For obvious reasons

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.1

        The “net tax payer” thing is a Right Wing think tank meme out of the USA.

      • DH 5.1.2

        “Dont waste time explaining it, make the short statement, and do it over and over again.”

        I don’t think anyone in Labour has actually figured it out. Rob from Polity is the only person I’ve seen digging into it but he hasn’t picked up the most egregrious misuse of statistics either.

        An obvious flaw is that no tax system has ever worked on income bands like that. English is claiming that each person’s share of the welfare bill is what people in their own income band are receiving. Those on $250k+ received an average of only $43.75 in transfers so English says their share of the welfare bill is $43.75 each.

        • Colonial Viper

          Except all that $250K+ is an economic transfer from the society to their household…

          • DH

            “Except all that $250K+ is an economic transfer from the society to their household…”

            Maybe, but that wasn’t my point. Even the rabid right would propose that every (working) taxpayer pays at least an equal share of the welfare bill. We’re all pitching in to pay for benefits, it’s not a rich/poor thing.

            Divide gross transfers by total households and that comes to $5574 per household. English says those households on $250k+ only need to pay $43.75 as their share of welfare benefits…. when it should be at least $5574 even to the rabid right.

    • Enough is Enough 5.2

      “Why does Labour let Bill English get away with pushing this nett taxpayer nonsense?”

      Because David Parker is hopeless. He can not articulate himself or the left. I have never heard him and been convinced with the arguments he is making (even when I agree with him sometimes).

      Contrast Parker with Norman. Russell is on point, talks to the interviewer (rather than looking all around the room like Parker does) and is often difficult to argue against because he has all his ducks in a row.

      Parker is Labour’s weak link this election. Cunliffe needs to carry the burden of having Parker on the front bench.

  6. this is a 13 min tour de force from oliver..

    ..on the subject of net-neutrality..

    ..a subject/topic he describes as being as boredom-inducing..

    .. as the words:

    ..’and featuring sting’..


    • Paul 6.1

      John Oliver doing a lot of good work.

      The death penalty in the US

      Misleading Labeling of Food Products

      Tony Abbott

      • ianmac 6.1.1

        Re Misleading Labeling of Food Products: Yes Paul and just last night I was yelling at the adverts on TV making all sorts of unsubstantiated claims for health and beauty. How come they can get away with these claims and not have to prove value at all. Just wheel in a sportsman, or a filmstar or a “scientist”. After all they must know a thing or two about stuff. Trust them? Sure can. In NZ it is cowboy country.

  7. Tautoko Viper 7

    Voters want to know that Labour will form a stable relationship with the Greens.
    The enemy is not the Greens or IMP (get that, ABCs?) Spending too much time differentiating yourselves from those who should/will be your allies is not only pissing off your allies, but believe me, it is turning away potential voters.

    The Labour Party will gain more votes by being supportive of the Green’s carbon credit scheme. Dairy Farmers, who will oppose this policy, would NEVER vote for Labour even if Labour supported the current flawed ETS scheme.

    Voters KNOW that Labour will not be able to govern on its own. They know that if they vote Labour they will get a Labour-Green Government (and probably IMP.)

    The media love the in-fighting which makes a Party look disorganised and directionless. More common ground (like the Labour-Green electricity policy) is needed, not “differentiation” which is going to have to be compromised to some degree, after the election anyway.

    This election is not about who wants to be Minister for what in the new Cabinet. Members of the Labour caucus need to put the people living in poverty first, before their own personal ambitions.

    • Paul 7.1

      Right wing Labour members of caucus threatening to undermine all the progress made by bold Green policies and great strategic plans by the IP and Mana.

    • ianmac 7.2

      Always wonder who these ABCs are Tautoko. Seems that some here “invent” some fresh “evidence” but do you think the Labour Caucus is stupid? The Greens and the Labourites are united in the need to be rid of the Key Misgovernment. As are the IMPs. So why don’t you help with a non-divisive front?

      • Colonial Viper 7.2.1

        The Greens and the Labourites are united in the need to be rid of the Key Misgovernment

        So, how many joint press conferences have Labour and Green MPs held on any policy issues or debates in the last 6 months? None? That’s showing a “united” front is it?

      • Rodel 7.2.2

        ianmac..so true.”inventing ” ‘fresh evidence’ ” is prevalent.

  8. Lefty 8

    Labour appears totally split and putting up the pension age is the only policy they have that sticks in anybody’s mind.
    Other parts of the left have convinced themselves that demonstrating they are just as cynical as the right is a brilliant strategy for bringing on board disillusioned voters.
    National is awful in just about every way.
    Peters has always been flaky.
    The dodgy Maori Party is dying.
    The Greens continue their march to the right under Russel’s guidance.
    As a libertarian socialist I have always had some sympathy for anarchists ideals but ultimately rejected their theory because I couldn’t understand how a transition could occur without a socialist government to manage it.
    But faced with the choices we have I do feel a kind of despair in the possibility of the sort of major changes required happening through our parliamentary system.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      As a libertarian socialist I have always had some sympathy for anarchists ideals but ultimately rejected their theory because I couldn’t understand how a transition could occur without a socialist government to manage it.

      A transition process could occur over a 5 year timeframe. Yes you would need a government and bureaucracy in Wellington willing to devolve their power and control over budgets and spending. (unlikely I know).

      The process would consist of empowering transparent local community based organisations and grassroots community self-government, as well as democratising SMEs (ordinary workers get to choose their bosses, get to decide on the major business decisions, have worker representatives on the boards of directors). Significant assets across the country would be transferred into community owned trusts and worker owned co-ops. Consumers would be given a clear choice between spending their money at a big foreign corporate or giving their custom to a locally owned and run business.

      The end results of this are solutions which come from the community, profits owned by workers, and a Wellington structure more focused on strategic nationwide co-ordination.

  9. Paul 9

    Corey Dann, a preacherman for the religion of neoliberalism.
    No evidence can turn his faith.
    He is a true believer.


  10. Paul 11

    A democratic message from New Zealand’s extreme right.
    ‘Shut up.’
    Why? Are the neoliberal elite scared people might listen?


    • ianmac 11.1

      I don’t think passers-by would take notice of a chap talking quietly about his point of view Bob. Not much chance of the MSM reporting quiet protest. So if you believe in a cause shout it out.

      • Paul 11.1.1

        Jones is more concerned that wealthy Parnell residents might have their peace disturbed for a few hours than for the victims of drone attacks.

        From wikipedia.

        “Jones………..formed the short-lived libertarian New Zealand Party in 1983, just before Robert Muldoon’s snap 1984 election. Jones explicitly stated his disgust that the supposedly pro-free-enterprise National Party of New Zealand had implemented socialist polices like price and wage freezes, and a top tax rate of 66%. His party acted as a spoiler, helping to deliver the government to the New Zealand Labour Party. Then, surprisingly for an ostensibly socialist party, this implemented free market reforms under Finance Minister Roger Douglas (hence Rogernomics). When the election was over, Jones disbanded the party, seeing that Labour had implemented many of his policies.”

        Complicit then in the heist that occurred in the 1980s.

    • Lefty 11.2

      Bob Jones telling John Minto to shut up.

      Chris Trotter telling Kelvin Davis to shut up.

      What is happening to the idea of free speech and tolerance of opposing voices and views?

    • Weepu's beard 11.3

      They do seem a little rattled – are they petrified of the thought of John Minto in parliament?

      John Key branding young people “cynical” too. Bit of a mistake I think.

  11. greywarbler 12

    Listening this morning to Radionz and discussion about how tourists find driving on our roads difficult, it was interesting to hear the hostility to ideas for trying to prevent this. Mild suggestions for some new methods were pooh-poohed and I feel that this represents much of NZs thinking, to find negatives immediately, exaggerate difficulties, scorn the suggestion, show reluctance to consider and examine new ideas that could ameliorate or solve present problems.

    This is why we are wallowing nationally, with dull, prejudiced minds finding group think with similar others reinforces their own impaired thinking and problem solving lack of ability.

    An example from this morning. There was a suggestion about multi-lingual signs at certain spots from Dog & Lemon Guide guy who seems switched on and thoughtful. The journalist taking part scorned this and exaggerated the extent of languages needed to probably 150, which of course would not be the number. She therefore could not think lucidly, really not think at all.

    Police spoke also, dissed new ideas and pointed out that a few things had already been done like the arrows on the roads at certain spots.
    Listen to the editor of the Dog and Lemon Guide Clive Matthew-Wilson and motoring journalist Jacqui Madelin debate the issues.

    • Bearded Git 12.1

      Mathew-Wilson was right about judder bars at Stop intersections. But putting Stop in lots of different languages isn’t going to help.

      Madelin was right about more arrows on the road indicating drive on the left. I have mistakenly driven on the left in Spain and after returning form Europe driven on the right here.

      • ianmac 12.1.1

        My mantra whenever driving in Europe was, “Drive on the Right! Give Way on the Left! Drive on the Right…..” My fear was that if distracted or careless my habits of a lifetime would kick in and I would start on the left. Horror! So sorry for the Dutch driver. I could make a mistake like that.

        • In Vino

          For heaven’s sake, ianmac. Europeans drive on the right, but they still give way to the right, just as we do. Which is why their roundabouts are ridiculous. They do NOT give way to the left. You may well be lucky that you did not land up not in that poor Dutchman’s position!

          • ianmac

            Thanks In Vino. Just looked it up and it seems there are variations and it is unclear and different European countries have different rules. In Croatia and in the Emirates I drove very carefully and gave way to the left when entering a roundabout. But it seems that in some countries any car entering a roundabout has right of way over the car already in the roundabout. Go figure. Giveway and Stop signs still the same as here. Will look a bit harder tomorrow.

      • Lanthanide 12.1.2

        So here’s a simple idea. Maybe they already do it since I’ve never rented a car I would’t know.

        Put on the dashboard, prominent to the driver, stickers saying “Keep left, drive on the left side. Look right at intersections”.

        Her point about it being worst when you’ve been driving around already for a while and in a moment of inattention you get it wrong – having stickers on the dashboard would help to remind people.

        • vto

          those stickers are already in place in rentals Lanthanide

        • Draco T Bastard

          I’ve always considered that the position of the steering wheel should be the dead giveaway as to which side to drive on because the steering wheel should always be next to the centre line.

          • weka

            True, but people spend large amounts of driving in a dissociated state. Think about the trip you just did and how much detail you actually remember, esp if you were listening to the radio or thinking about something important. This is normal. In those situations the body’s memory has more influence on what happens ie we drive by rote. If we are used to driving on one side of the road, then that’s what the body memory will default us to in certain situations.

            • Colonial Viper

              True, but people spend large amounts of driving in a dissociated state.

              And habit is a killer. If you were taught at 16 to stay on the right side of the road and that’s the way you have been doing it every day for the next 30 years…

    • vto 12.2

      The problem of tourist drivers is very real, in the parts of the country they frequent. Just two days before this tragic crash I commented to a truck driver that imo the greatest danger when driving certain highways were tourist drivers ….. coming around a corner and finding some loopy on the wrong side of the road heading straight for you …..

      The copper on the tele last night said ” blah blah only 6% are tourists … blah blah”. Well, actually 6% is a significant number. And when you look closely that 6% becomes probably something like 20-30% in the parts of NZ concerned….

      Try driving the west coast highway, McKenzie country, southland or central Otago, pretty much anywhere rural and touristy in the South Island. In the last 12 months I have personally witnessed two tourists driving on the wrong side of the road – it took a great deal of horn-tooting and light-flashing to get them to realise …. all the while on a deadly trajectory.

      Only solution is a beeper that goes nuts as soon as the vehicle crosses the centre-line …

      this problem is very real

      • greywarbler 12.2.1

        Yes good idea. Another one that Dog&Lemon suggested was a rumble strip in certain places to ensure they kept to the right track.

        My idea is that on each rental vehicle there would be a stick-on panel on the windscreen along the right hand bottom showing a highway with dots down the middle and a large white arrow going forward on the left and a large truck in view facing the wheel on the other side. It would be not intrusive on the view forward through the windscreen but be perpetually on the edge of the vision, and once seen then would be constantly reinforcing the message. [Edit I see Lanthanide already suggested this so I just endorse that.]

        Also a short recorded message could play when the vehicle started after stopping or pausing for a turn, just saying – choose from three languages – ‘Remember keep left.’

        Something like the 5 minute video before taking the rental car would be good and it must involve some action to correct something by the driver and needs to be done sucessfully or repeated. I couldn’t care less about the Swedish driver who said he would never come again if asked to do that. Plenty of more responsible people still will do that. It is overlooked that tourists can cost us a lot of money as well as bring it into the economy.
        We need to look after them while they are here better than we have in the past, and we need them to look after us better too, so that we can all stay alive and enjoy the mutual experience of meeting new people.

        • vto

          Yep, it needs to be something that activates and gets their attention every time they get in the car …….

          ….. this is the common scenario as witnessed ….. said tourist has pulled off the south westland highway at a place called Ship Creek, a delightful creek and beach just off the main road between Haast and Fox. Said tourists wander around and enjoy the waves and the tawaki and the seals and blue sky (and sandflies). Soaked in this natural glory, their minds over-relaxed and taken to other places, they pile back in the car and pull out onto the main highway again, straight into the right hand lane and continue in this manner until ……..


          • greywarbler

            Yes ingrained habit rises to the fore after a period of relaxation and they do the usual thing without any prompts otherwise, and turn into the right land. We have known this for some time but the government these days does anything of practical value reluctantly. And of course there is the old personal responsibility mantra.

            • In Vino

              What do you mean “They”, Paleface?

              I spent 5 years in Europe. In year 4 I pulled out of a remote country Petrol Station on a straight, empty road. Luckily, I had 3 French passengers in my Kombi. They all screamed, “A droite, à droite!” and I quickly caught on. (I had forgotten where I was..)

              A year later I was back in England. From another trivial stop I pulled out onto the road, only to see a truck coming towards me. I quickly corrected to the left, but got highly expressive hand signals from the truck driver.

              Those are the moments that trap us all – Kiwis included. And don’t get too aggressive about this: in driving on the left we are a tiny minority. Ex British Empire countries (but not Canada) and Japan.

              As such a minority, maybe we need to rethink our whole policy, instead of clinging to a lost policy simply because our nearest neighbour (Australia, for the dumbies) also illogically clings to driving on the left.

              This is all off topic and likely to be moved to Open Mike?

          • Chooky

            maybe they should only be allowed to bike?…or drive vehicles that go no more than 20kph

  12. Paul 13

    The casino economy.
    Just substitute the word speculator for investor.


  13. ianmac 14

    Interesting! Chris Barton points out :”Could Judith Collin’s recent outburst on Twitter against press gallery journalist Katie Bradford have seen her prosecuted under the proposed Harmful Digital Communications Bill?

    Could the Justice Minister, who has vowed to stomp out cyber bullies – “Your behaviour is not acceptable” – have been hoist on her own petard?”

    Lets go with that when the Bill is debated again!

  14. Pasupial 15

    This was on Fearfacts this morn, with no author attribution or source; does anyone know where it’s come from?

    Norman revealed that new Internet Party leader Laila Harre had wanted to be a Green Party MP before she quit her adviser role in December. 
    A spokesman confirmed she was also on the campaign committee until a fortnight ago.


    • and who was that numpty who said i was talking shit..

      ..when i talked about just this the other day..?

    • The Al1en 15.2

      So upshot is LH wanted the $148,000 on offer. That’s very principled and progressive of her.

      • phillip ure 15.2.1

        so that was all it took..eh allen..?

        ..just $148,000..?

        ..gee..!..her soul was cheap..eh..?

        ..seriously allen..!..you are so full of shite…!

        • The Al1en

          “so that was all it took..eh allen..? ..just $148,000..?”

          So it would appear.

          “..gee..!..her soul was cheap..eh..?”

          Being on the dole at the moment, I wouldn’t say 148k was cheap, hell, even bombers 8k a week isn’t cheap, but then after paying my low mortgage and utilities (no hp, no loans) I’m left with $60 to buy food for me, my daughter and the cat for the week. Either way, her grab at the cash, seeing she was up for an mp spot and part of the election committee, seems a bit distasteful.

          “.seriously allen..!..you are so full of shite…!”

          With as much or as little respect as you want to claim, get fucked, nugget 😉

          • phillip ure

            you were that ‘numpty’..weren’t you..?

          • Draco T Bastard

            I’m still wondering why people are so upset about a political party supporting their candidates. It’s not as if they can do any other job while they are a candidate.

            • weka

              +1, which skews candidacy towards wealthy people. I’m glad Harre is getting paid and can’t see how this is an issue of integrity at all.

          • Chooky

            @The Allen …..re “get fucked , nugget” …. and I thought you were a sensitive New Age guy?!?…

            ….also i doubt Laila Harre has ever been in politics for the money ….she has the smarts and a good law degree to earn considerably more than an MP over the years …but has instead dedicated herself to working for the unions, the Left in general and Left wing political parties in particular

            • The Al1en

              “@The Allen …..re “get fucked , nugget” …. and I thought you were a sensitive New Age guy?!?”

              You give it you take it, and being third of five brothers, I’m cool with that. If Phil’s feeling are genuinely hurt, then of course I’ll apologise and refrain from now on.

              As for new age, I don’t even know what that means these days. I remember new age first time around, which surely would make me old age new age if anything.
              Like the joke about the museum guide telling the tour group the dinosaur bones are 65 million and 12 years old. How can you be so precise? Came the question, well it was 65 million years old when I started working here 12 years ago. Ba dum tish.

      • Tracey 15.2.2

        if you believe the unsourced statement from stuff. Remember the right dont understand principles. They cant relate to it unless they are using it in a rehearsed line

        • The Al1en

          Just commenting on the story being lauded by phil.
          If the story isn’t correct, of course I’ll retract when LH successfully sues for defamation.

          But having wrote that, $148k if true, speaks volumes. I wouldn’t be in a rush to apologise.

          • Tracey

            are you saying that an unsourced statement, unless proven false by defamation proceedings is treated as true, by you?

            • The Al1en

              I’ve said if it’s not accurate, then I’ll retract. In fact, I won’t even wait for the defamation case, I’ll just man up and do it. How’s that?

              As an aside, what do you think of it? LH being on the green party election team, possibly on the list, then leaving for the well paid position offered?

              • Tracey

                I refuse to comment until someone sources it 😉

                • The Al1en

                  Fair enough, but I’m sure if it’s incorrect we’ll know about it sooner than later.

                  • karol

                    To me the comment by Norman is in keeping with what Harre said herself on The Nation:


                    Lisa Owen: You were considering standing for the Green Party weren’t you. So why didn’t you do that?

                    Laila Harre: I gave it some consideration but at no point did I feel like it was right thing to do or the best use of my talents and skills and experience at that time. In fact, I’d committed this year to working on the Council of Trade Unions ‘Get Out the Vote’ campaign and we’ve been setting that up since the beginning of the year, it’s going very well.

                    • ianmac

                      That might have been quite a while ago and not really relevant to the current situation.

                • The Al1en


                  “Internet Party leader Laila Harre reveals has revealed she is being a paid back-bench MP salary as leader of the Internet Party

                  A backbench MP is paid $147,800, plus perks including travel and accommodation expenses plus super.”

                  Though she states
                  ” But I have to say that there simply wasn’t any discussion at all about personal remuneration for me at any stage during this decision and it just was not a factor in me making up my mind,”


                  • Tracey

                    hmmmmm because you cant imagine someone considering taking a position without considering the remuneration or something else.

                    Harres statement aboce, thank karol, strikes me as the facts so far.

                    For the record my partner interviewed for a job in 2010. They offered it to her. Twice they rang back to make sure she would do it for what they were offerin, because it was less than she had been on and far less than she was worth. So, people do take jobs for the job, not the money.

                    • lprent

                      So, people do take jobs for the job, not the money.

                      I do that fairly routinely. It really is the only way to both keep ahead of the ever changing game and from topping yourself from terminal boredom because you are always doing same things over and over again.

                      Just at present I’m job-hunting again. Something new is really high on my list of priorities..

                    • karol

                      Yep. Always go for the job as a priority. I might not have considered a job if it was less than a living wage. But that never happened to me.

                    • The Al1en

                      No, hmmm because I’m not quite convinced money wasn’t raised, but will give her the benefit of the doubt and take her at her word this time.

                      “So, people do take jobs for the job, not the money.”

                      Absolutely they do, have done many times myself.

                    • Tracey


                      I ended a contract last year for ethical reasons. Am struggling to replace it financially.

                    • The Al1en


                      Except I had a contract ended last month for ethical reasons. Am struggling to replace it .

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      So, people do take jobs for the job, not the money.

                      Sure they do – when they can afford to. Most of the people in this country can’t afford to.

                    • Tracey

                      true enough draco.

                      I have a leaky home rebuild to pay for, and we are now a one income family BUT i recognise that i am still in a very good position compared to most.

                      My point remains that harre considering the job not the remuneration is entirely possible. I want some decent proof to undo my opinion of her.

              • freedom

                “then leaving for the well paid position offered?”

                You naturally have some proof for this statement?

                I ask because you seem to have ignored the fact that since December, Laila Harre was actually working for the CTU.

                “Laila Harre worked for the Green Party for about 18 months, but left in December 2013 to work for the Council of Trade Unions.” – RNZ

                As far as resigning from the campaign committee, lots of people have to drop volunteer work to accommodate new professional duties. And being the leader of a new political party is a pretty good reason to stop doing work on another party’s campaign. (if it was a paid gig, I am sure the resignation was done according to the requirements of any agreement) Being a well respected lawyer Laila Harre would surely not have left the Greens in any way but by the book. The Greens you may notice, have not released any information that says they have any concerns with what has transpired from an employment perspective or even on a strategic/intellectual property angle.

                (on a related issue…as the Labour Party knows… some people have to take more drastic moves than drop volunteer work to go to a new job. Some people have to drop their volunteer work, such as electorate campaign management, just to have time to find a job so they can feed their kids. For some, working to better their country is a dream they cannot even afford to partake in)

                So I can only surmise your issue is the amount Laila Harre is being paid to run a political party. Are you suggesting that the Leader of a new political party that is 100% commited to removing John Key’s government, should only attempt to do so if paid under a particular sum?

                Since the stated rate is too high in your opinion, what is an acceptable pay rate for the leader of a political party and all that comes with that?

                • weka

                  “The Greens you may notice, have not released any information that says they have any concerns with what has transpired from an employment perspective or even on a strategic/intellectual property angle.”

                  In fact Turei said outright that she had no concerns about the strategy angle because Harre was a person of integrity.

                • The Al1en

                  “I ask because you seem to have ignored the fact that since December, Laila Harre was actually working for the CTU.”

                  Not ignored, but point accepted.

    • swordfish 15.3

      @ Pasupial

      It’s the on-line version of the Dom Post’s Today in Politics column. Which is at top of Page 2 of the newspaper and always anonymous. Presumably penned by Watkins/Small/Vance/Rutherford.or other Fairfax pol journo. And, yeah, no source.

  15. “..Anger as report exposes kitten experiments at top universities..”

    “..Claims that animals were paralysed –

    had skulls cracked open –
    and had electrodes stuck into brains..”


    (ed:..and be in no doubt that shit like that happens here in new zealand..)



    • Chooky 16.1

      phillip ure …i dont want to read that….and I wont…but I agree with you !

  16. bad12 17

    Are wind farms full of 150 meter tall windmills so last centuries technology, if the Invelox wind energy systems are proven to deliver what the inventors say they can then the answer to that question is a big YES,

    More on this later and why i totally applaud the Green Party abandoning the ”emissions Trading Scam” with plans to replace that with a ”Carbon tax” while only giving the announced policy a 6 outta 10,

    For more on ”Invelox” google:

    Invelox wind energy systems,


    Sheerwind Minnesota…

    • Draco T Bastard 17.1

      It can’t. The formula for energy from wind has been known for decades and nobody has been able to break it yet.

      • bad12 17.1.1

        Draco, i laugh out loud, such attitude as the theory has been known for years so it cannot be altered is incredibly, well for want of a word that you wouldn’t see as a direct insult, incredible,

        According to the info i garnered off of the Googles i point readers at is the fact that they have working machines that ARE doing just that,

        10 K wind in one end 15 K wind out the other, near enough to breaking that Law of thermo-whats-its,

        The inventors/makers already have one little town/city signed up to buy the installation,

        IF, this proves to be true, it is cheaper per kilowatt hour than current wind-mills, cheaper to maintain, less of a footprint on the landscape, and, probably could be mounted on existing buildings with flat roofs,

        i have another interest in this tech as well, it is perfect for furthering technology which would enable CO2 to be removed from the atmosphere on an industrial scale, allowing that CO2 to then be adapted into a burnable gas and in turn be burned in a generator equipped with the full carbon capture tech to generate electricity…

        • bad12

          Of course the other ingredient necessary to enable the design and installation of such equipment would be inherent in the price of Carbon as per the Green Party announcement on the weekend,

          At $25 a tonne i would suggest the removal and burning of CO2 to create electricity would become a very profitable enterprise…

          • Colonial Viper

            Sorry it is difficult to chemically extract any more energy out of CO2. It’s a very stable end product which doesn’t release any more heat easily.

            • bad12

              No need to be sorry CV, i think you will find that that is just not true, Iceland which generates electricity from Geo-thermal,(their geo-thermal also generates CO2), captures the CO2 and re-burns it in what is pretty much a closed loop system,

              The CO2 does have to go through a process to enable it’s combustion but combust it does, it then comes down to a measurement of how much electricity is needed to process the CO2 versus how much electricity the burned CO2 produces…

            • Draco T Bastard

              It seems that they’re not extracting more energy out of CO2 but pumping more energy into it to turn it into methanol.

              • Colonial Viper

                yep…like getting ethanol from corn…what’s you take into account all the energy inputs from fertiliser, diesel, processing…you’re pretty much close to a stand still. It’s the Red Queen problem: running faster and faster just to stay in the same place.

        • Draco T Bastard


          Martin Hansen, a wind energy expert at the Technical University of Denmark, disagrees. He says INVELOX will draw in and speed up the wind as claimed, but when the turbine is placed inside the ductwork it will create such high pressure that little additional air will be drawn into the device, making it a poor alternative to conventional turbine designs.


          Amid the optimistic clamor there is one dark cloud—no one outside of SheerWind has been allowed to test the system.

          When all we have is claim s from the company making them and they’re not allowing outside testing then I’m going to call BS on their claims.

        • Murray Olsen

          The design looks interesting, but isn’t going to break any laws of thermodynamics. The interesting thing for me is that it can operate at very low wind speeds and is supposedly more efficient than a turbine, although it’s not clear how they made the comparison.

          It uses the venturi effect to speed up air where the tube narrows, which means that the pressure goes down. I’m assuming that the higher velocity is an advantage in running the generating turbine more efficiently. They have small working models and it’s always possible that these won’t scale well to bigger sizes. The numerical modelling they have done generally gives an indication of whether something will work or not, but how accurate it is can be another question.

          PS I wrote this before I saw, but it might as well stay here.

  17. bad12 18

    Are wind-farms so last centuries technology, if the inventors of the Invelox wind energy systems are proven correct then i would have to say a big YES to that question,

    The capabilities and design of this particular instrument of capturing wind, speeding it up, and using it for the generation of electricity have far greater ramifications in terms of climate than first meets the eye,

    The google for a look is:

    Sheerwind Minnesota,
    Invelox wind energy systems…

  18. bad12 19

    Not again, all my comments are disappearing into the ethereal unknown again this morning…

  19. aerobubble 20

    I don’t see Lab, Greens and Mana/IP competing. Labour is targetting mainstream NZ. Greens the enviroment vote, Mana the poor who are disaffected by Labour, and now IP the non-voting online denizen.

    Ford saw that to sell more cars he needed to pay his workers enough so they could afford them.
    Dotcom realizes to grow the internet he needs to lower the cost of access to it.
    Mana realizes that the best economy is a more equal society, and so have a synergy with Dotcom.
    It is however inspiring how dumb the Q+A panel was.

    We are seeing Mana/IP branding.

    NZF is targets the older voters. ACT stupid rich. UF the deranged. Maori the Maori elite. And Crazy Colins, its hard to tell what world he is on. And lastly, National who are things to all people.

    When I look left I see pragmatic progressive policies for the medium to long term.
    When I look right I see sad pathetic policies designed to grow inequality and harm the economy all for short-term gains.

    And please why would Pacific voters want a Nat-NZF tie up, welfare bashers and immigration basher, just because Cunliffe wants to stop a few immigrants from India and China, entering under the National rich prick visa, that forces up housing prices for them.

    • Tracey 20.1

      cos that lovely mr key has gone to the pacific to use lots of words to say nothing.

      Presumably labour is on the ground where it matters

  20. Skinny 21

    Listening to the political show on RNZ today I have to laugh at Hooton and his spin, which sounded like a paid advertisement for the corporates.

    Come on Hooton selectively quoting low company tax rates in Nordic countries like Finland are an exception to the norm. Most Western Nations have far higher company tax rates to ours. Your elite corporate friends need to be paying far more than what they are now.

    You could have mentioned the Nordic countries more progressive social policies aswell. No you couldn’t possibly mention these as they are an affront to your ideology. Having balance to your opinion gives credibility rather than making you look like a rightwing mug.

  21. Matthew Hooton 22

    You’re wrong. Check out http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

    28% is high.

    • geoff 22.1

      You’re high, Matthew.

      US federal corporate tax is 39% according to that list.

      Anyway, typical of an entry-level corporate toadie, you’ll cherry pick away at any stats to try and prop up your miserable world view.

      Go and read Picketty.

      • Colonial Viper 22.1.1

        US federal corporate tax is 39% according to that list.

        In reality of course the corporates have convinced Congress to pass through massive amounts of exemptions, loop holes, rebates etc so the real rate for big corporates is a pittance of that…SMEs still get smashed at the maximum rate though because they don’t have as good lobbyists.

      • Paul 22.1.2

        Matthew is paid to think what he does.
        I feel sorry for him in some ways.
        It must be depressing not have lost your freedom to think for yourself.

        Then I remember the damage the spinning he does causes to the vulnerable in our society and that brief moment of sympathy disappears.

        • Tracey

          and he sounds so pleased with himself

        • bad12

          i thought wee Matty’s effort on the wireless this morning was one of His better efforts, on Mana/Dotcom Hooton is behaving akin to a washing machine where the electronics have gone haywire,

          He appears to be stuck on ‘agitate’ while the command from the wiring has also ordered ‘spin’, one minute the evil DotCom has sucked all the maori boys and girls of the Mana Party in big time,

          In the next breath Matty postulates that all them aging Socialists have suckered poor old Dotcom outta 3 odd million dollars…

          • Chooky


            • Kiwiri

              Yeah. Dat was a laff. He was all over the place and it was soooh obvious.

          • Matthew Hooton

            Very good comment – like the washing machine analogy.

            But I don’t think I have ever thought the “maori boys and girls” have been sucked in by Dotcom. I have thought since I saw Hone being interviewed on Q&A a month or so ago that he is in charge and Dotcom has been duped.

            • bad12

              Does your washing machine come with a ‘slip’ and ‘slither’ command Matty, without a dig through the information super-highway to dredge up your various ‘positions’ on InternetMana which on an issue that carries as much importance as, well you,which i don’t plan on taxing my severely depleted pile of neurons over, i will have to take your word,

              Did i detect tho, with Your latest effort on the wireless a barely suppressed rage at the sheer audacity of all them aged Socialists having turned the 2014 election on it’s head via having 3 million bucks dumped in their lap to fight the contest with,

              i was breathless waiting for another Matty meltdown moment which seemed to me to be bubbling incoherently below the surface of your comments…

    • Skinny 22.2

      Nice try Matthew, however your link states a ‘subjective’ element to it.

      I think America’s 39% is more reflective of how low company tax rates are here, rather than many of the fuk nations you have linked us too. David Parker will sort this anomaly out, along with upping the tax rate for high income earners such as yourself. Those slush fund trusts will be reworked so that rort of a loop hole is closed out also.

      Btw Hope you sprung for Pagani’s brunch after her cheerleading display for you on Q & A on Sunday. I found that most comical as I’m sure you did by the smitten look on ya face lol.

      • Draco T Bastard 22.2.1

        David Parker will sort this anomaly out, along with upping the tax rate for high income earners such as yourself. Those slush fund trusts will be reworked so that rort of a loop hole is closed out also.

        As much as I’d like that to happen the fact that Parker still says we must increase retirement to 67 would indicate that having that much trust in him is contraindicated.

        • Skinny


          The problem is the raising the age of retirement policy became policy because the active members turned up at remit/policy review & LEC/branch meetings too endorse it. I turned up and was simply out voted. Believe it or not there was strong support from left minded members of the LP. Reasoning was put forward that many workers need too worker longer because they don’t have enough savings to retire. My argument was a hell of a lot of workers struggle to make 65 as it is, also computerization/robotic’s means that jobs won’t be there fullstop.

          After Douglas ran a muck any rogue MP/s ‘must stick to policy’ they can blow their arse about any notion they like, however their sorry arse will be dragged back to the party’s policy if they try straying.

      • Matthew Hooton 22.2.2

        Sure the 39% US rate is nonsense. No one pays it. Mainly because it is so high. If they cut it, some people might start paying it rather than directing revenues through lower tax regimes.

    • Colonial Viper 22.3

      28% is high.

      Corporates are pulling $15B out of our country in profits every year mate. That’s what’s really high. And here you are wanting to increase that current account drain out of the nation even further. What is your problem?

      • Tracey 22.3.1

        today i listened to hoots and mike w. It occurred to me that to a large extent mike w is there as himself, to say what he thinks. Hoots is there helping to frame a viewpoint that assist the right. Thats why its so frustrating and why mike w will agree with hoots far more than the other way. Hoots is playing a role, mike w is being himself. Just a thought.

        • phillip ure

          re williams..

          ..there was of course that question williams just didn’t answer..

          ..ie..’who/what stopped the carbon tax plans of yesteryear..?..you’d know mike..!’

          ..williams didn’t even try to answer that..(and of course ryan just let him get away with it/not answering..)

          ..maybe ‘cos his ‘old mate’ winston peters was the one who killed that earlier carbon-tax..?..

          ..just ‘mike’..being himself…

          ..problem is..’himself’ wants labour/nz first after the election..

          • Tracey

            ryan also didnt know a couple of basic things… Like mana running annette sykes andnot just having te tai tokerau.

    • Tracey 22.4

      so, you think we should also follow some scandanavian countries on social policy and education too?

      You know the right are worried when they suggest we should be more like scandanavian countries.

    • Foreign Waka 22.5

      Hi Matthew, yes NZ is with its corporate tax rate higher then some of the Euro countries. However, you need to take all taxes into consideration. In most if not all Euro countries GST is certainly a lot higher and personal insurance cost (pension and health) contributions are considerably more. In the end this should not be a race to the bottom where we are content with 250 000 kids going hungry but any tax take should rather a tool to facilitate a civilized participation via economic means – this would mean infrastructure on logistical and humanistic terms. Sure, NZ with its physical isolation and small population will always face a challenge to participate against economies of scale. Instead of making things cheaper NZ should provide goods that have more value added.

    • felix 22.6

      We’re at the high end of the gst scale (especially considering that many of the higher rates have exemptions for food and other items) but you won’t see matty complaining about that.

  22. Draco T Bastard 23

    National’s latest attempt to solve the housing crisis: Build ugly houses

  23. greywarbler 24

    Thinking of the future, I am reading Lark Rise, particularly the introduction to that book by Flora Thompson. It covers the demise of rural England and paints a picture that might be one to strive to return to when continuation as present becomes no longer viable.

    What Flora Thompson depicts is the utter ruin of a closely knit organic society with a richly interwoven and traditional culture that had defied every change, every aggression, except the one that established the modern world…..
    The old open fields community of co-operative self-help destroyed by the Enclosures is caught in the worlds….
    In remembering the Rise when it was common land…carrying in her mind the England of small properties based on the land, the England whose native land belonged to its own people, not to a State masquerading as such, not even to the manorial lords who exacted services, but not from a landless proletariat. Still less to big business…

    ..it was Victoria’s reign that, partly through their agency [the Vicar and the Squire] but mainly by the growth of the industrial town and the industrial mentality, ended the self-sufficient England of peasant and craftsman…the attempted murder of something timeless in and quintessential to the spirit of man. A design for living has become unravelled, and there can be no substitute, because however imperfect the pattern, it was part of the essential constitution of human nature.

    It seems that there is much in the musings of the writer. With the Enclosures went the ability to be self-sufficient so one then had to be a supplicant in the labour market which might reject you as an adult wishing to work in the fabric mills, but your children might be set to the ‘treadmill’ in a disciplined way far beyond the bursts of hard work and long hours at harvest time in the old days. How many ohus and co-ops are surviving in NZ I wonder? There have been speakers and economists interested in co-ops in NZ – I wonder how many still exist.

    The old status quo was overthrown by the industrial age, now we should be looking at a new one relishing hand -crafted things, conserving and repairing with new skills. Perhaps we can convert and still have some graciousness in our living, not the harrassed stress of survivalists, and not the naked disdain and aggression ruling that arises from time to time in us all. To be continued – after the election.

  24. Tracey 25

    Has key managed two election bribes from one policy?

    “The Government is moving to increase the number of Pacific workers who can come into the country under the regional season employment (RSE) scheme.

    Prime Minister John Key said a small increase was on the cards, partly driven by the likely return of Fiji to the scheme if it went ahead with democratic elections.

    His comments followed a traditional Ava ceremony at Poutasi village where he was made a matai or chief after his visit to the tsunami-hit village after the devastation there in 2009.

    During the ceremony one of the senior villagers thanked him and New Zealand for allowing its workers to come to New Zealand for temporary seasonal jobs.

    But he also called on Key to lift the number of places available. ”

    Cheap labour for businesses and jobs for pasifika family members

    • bad12 25.1

      Yep cheap labour of the variety that the neo-lib Tories just love, use em and lose em, once the season they are employed for is over send them packing…

    • Draco T Bastard 25.2

      Has key managed two election bribes from one policy?

      Apparently and neither one good for NZ.

    • Foreign Waka 25.3

      Astonishing, 6% unemployed but more immigrants that will most likely be ending up in seasonal short term work and then on the unemployment benefit. I don’t understand the logic, who is going to pay for that? But maybe it is true that the aim is to have enough unemployed to make sure wages don’t rise.

      • Draco T Bastard 25.3.1

        But maybe it is true that the aim is to have enough unemployed to make sure wages don’t rise.

        It’s National so that is most definitely the goal.

    • Skinny 25.4

      The main reason will be less about the return to a democratic process in Fiji (sometimes for the betterment of a Country democracy plays 2nd fiddle) but more a favour to another group of National’s donators. Fruit & vegie growers who struggle to get their produce harvested here in New Zeandand. Even the majority of the unemployed balk at such slave labour. I think we have all seen or heard examples of Island Nation people being exploited by scumbag contractor bosses. Of course many of the growers know these vulnerable workers are being exploited, however when confronted by the authorities they deny all knowledge.

      Casual/seasonal workers are getting stiffed by this National outfit and things just keep getting worst, like the new 80 hour employment law change that ‘another group’ of donators have got rammed thru parliament. Yip those bloody dirty dairy farmers.

  25. thecard 26

    What a hoot !

    “Bracanov later reappeared in court and pleaded not guilty to the charge. He has been remanded on bail until late August for a case-review hearing.

    Outside court he said his grudge against John Banks began when he was fined $10,000 for throwing a bucketful of horse manure at a car carrying King Juan Carlos of Spain in the late 1980s.

    Banks was minister of police when Bracanov was fined.

    “He should not have charged me so much … the law is not for the people,” he said.

    In 1994, Bracanov was convicted of disorderly behaviour after spraying air freshener as he rushed at Prince Charles who was on a royal walkabout at Auckland’s Viaduct Basin.

    Banks also allegedly cut Bracanov off when he was making a point on a Radio Pacific show in 1997 that Banks was hosting.

    Bracanov said it was important to throw the manure in public so people would get the point.”


    • karol 26.1

      Yes, just read that. Gee, he holds a grudge for a long time. I’d have thought there were far more recent things to criticize Banks for.

  26. bad12 27

    This is getting stupid, i make 3 comments this morning, they don’t appear, i check later and all 3 have appeared and i make another comment that appears,

    Then another 2 comments that don’t,

    Is this a ”novel” form of censorship, or, just the computers viewing my comments as spam,???…

    [lprent: It is the server and not just you. I can’t see any reason for it. At present I’m simply turning off possible causes one at a time and then seeing if anything else gets trapped. If it does I move to the next possible cause. It is a slow way of debugging, but there really isn’t any other way. It started on sunday. ]

    • bad12 27.1

      Thanks for that LPrent, i will just have to exercise patience but knowing where the problem is will allow me to keep the blood pressure under control…

      [lprent: Well it isn’t in the blacklist. Next one… ]

  27. Tracey 28

    not attacking you al1en, sorry if it seemed that way.

    She would have known she would be paid just not how much.

    I have been effectively unemployed since 2013. Im not amongst the stats though cos i am not drawing welfare.

    Wishing you best of luck finding some work.

    • The Al1en 28.1

      No offence taken here Tracey. I’m well use to rough and tumble and didn’t feel under attack, but ta anyway.

      Being unemployed stinks and having to deal with the ss makes it even worse. I’m glad you’re in a position to avoid that certain ‘pleasure’.
      Still don’t think I should have kept my mouth shut and thus my job, so no regrets here. I’m just pleased I avoided the 13 week stand down and only had the 3 weeks without money – That would have been extra harsh.

  28. bad12 29


    • The Al1en 29.1

      Not on animals I hope, ’cause p u will be sending a celery rocket up your arse otherwise 😆

      • bad12 29.1.1

        Mercy, lord have mercy, you will have to ask Phillip to put up His link to Doctor Tashkin He supplied the other week as part of His other little crusade, dope,

        And dope it was as Doctor Tashkin Oops pointed out that the miracle cures as expounded had all been arrived at by inflicting various cancers on animals and then pumping them full of dope….

  29. hi..!..it’s me again..!

    ..(that annoying vegan guy..)

    ..i’ve got some more dairy/cancer evidence for ya..eh..?

    “..Will quitting dairy defeat cancer?..

    ..A leading scientist and cancer survivor says the disease is overwhelmingly linked to animal products..”



    ..yr welcome..!

    • would you like cheese with that..?

      • The Al1en 30.1.1

        I don’t know why, but that just takes me back to pre muckdonald days of yore, and now I so fancy a Wimpy half pounder (minus the tomato).

        • phillip ure

          you just laugh in the face of the evidence…eh allen..?

          ..fuck cancer.!..gizza ciggy..!

          ..when did you stop smoking tobacco..allen..?

          • The Al1en

            “you just laugh in the face of the evidence…eh allen..?”

            I just really fancied a wimpy half pounder with cheese, don’t get sanctimonious on me.

            “..fuck cancer.!..gizza ciggy..!
            ..when did you stop smoking tobacco..allen..?”

            A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away

            • phillip ure

              so why did you stop..?

              ..was it because smoking causes cancer..?

              ..and you didn’t want to get cancer..?

              • The Al1en

                Amongst other diseases, yes, it was certainly one factor in stopping smoking.

                Am I going to stop eating meat and dairy products and go vegan, no, no I am not.

                Am I prepared to risk it and eat cheese (when I can afford to again), yes, yes I will.

                And the worst thing of all, and call child services on me if you like, I feed my daughter the same food I eat.

    • Paul 30.2

      Have you seen this movie phil?
      Very powerful

  30. freedom 31


  31. dimebag russell 32

    just seen john ‘shifty’ key pretending to be enjoying himself in Samoa. anyway he should know that the all-blacks do not want to play in Samoa or other P.I. nations because the locals just want to bash them up for the hell of it. But I guess he knows better.sacrificing an all Blacks career for a few votes is really his style.

  32. Belladonna 33

    Prof Colin Campbell discovered that by adding animal/dairy to cancer cells in a petrie dish caused them to grow, adding plant products did not. My understanding of tamoxifen is that it will cause cancer of the reproductive organs so am surprised Jane Plant is using this. Many years ago I gave a friend with breast cancer Prof Plant’s book Your Life in your Hands. Unfortunately she couldnt give up meat and dairy and died 2 years later. Is meat and dairy worth dying for, I just dont get it.

    • weka 33.1

      Are you suggesting that no vegans ever get cancer?

      • Belladonna 33.1.1

        I dont know the answer to that but it seems it will dramatically cut your risk of reproductive cancers by avoiding meat/dairy and having a healthy diet. Some vegans can have a diet very high in junk food so not sure where they sit with health stats.
        Dr John McDougall has many testimonials on his website where people with chronic disease have recovered on a vegan diet.

        • weka

          Likewise the Weston Price Foundation, who advocate a traditional (pre-industrial) diet that includes meat and dairy. One size doesn’t fit all.

          • miravox

            One size doesn’t fit all

            So true. For my auto-immune illness, advice over the years about diets that will definitely cure me (and I’m sure people with cancer have had similar advice about absolutely proven cures) include:
            Gelatine diet
            Avoid all citrus
            Avoid wheat
            Go completely gluten free
            Avoid refined carbs
            Avoid all carbs
            Go on the ‘caveman’ diet
            Avoid red meat
            Avoid all meat
            Go vegetarian
            Avoid all dairy
            Go vegan
            Have more probiotic foods
            Go totally organic
            Eat more chilli (avoid chilli)
            Have more ginger / turmeric
            Have more foods with omega3 / chondritin / glucosamine
            Have cinnamon every morning
            Have apple cider and manuka honey every morning

            The latest was avoid foods of the solanine family (potatoes, tomatoes, capsicum etc).

            Most have amazingly straightforward and superficially believable logic around them.

            Recently I heard that soaking raisins in gin and have a spoonful each morning is the answer.
            I’m quite liking the idea of this last one instead of a cup of tea (which is to be avoided) 😉

            • Colonial Viper

              advice over the years about diets that will definitely cure me

              But you’ve found that diet can have a major effect on how ill you are, right?

              • miravox

                “But you’ve found that diet can have a major effect on how ill you are, right?”

                Edit: Obviously for so-called lifestyle diseases and general well-being a good diet is important. In terms of reducing auto-immune symptoms? No, diet doesn’t seem to have an effects (with the exception of ensuring I don’t have iron-deficiency anaemia).

                • weka

                  which would be another example of one size not fitting all 🙂 Some people find diet helps, others don’t.

                  • miravox

                    Absolutely. I’m not arguing that a diet that supplies people all the nutrients they need and limits foods that contain damaging compounds doesn’t make them feel better. Otherwise we may as well all go choose our favourite junk food and live on that.

                    I should have stuck with my original ‘no’ answer to cv 😉

                    A problem with this chronic disease is that the disease (not dietary deficiency) can cause anaemia and then this in turn can have knock on effect of increasing the disease activity that is already present, and will remain after the anaemia is resolved.

                    It’s a new and very expensive drug that I can’t get in NZ that cured the very serious anaemia within a month after years of enduring it. Now I just make sure I get dietary sources of iron and reduce iron-stripping compound from products like tea (it’s all those polyphenol anti-oxidants). With the anaemia under control because the drug works on the cause of the original chronic illness, this dietary effect is enough to keep it that way, where it wasn’t enough before, that’s all.

                    The intention of that list was to indicate why dietary advice which is apparently well-meaning, is confusing and may be rejected. It’s not that people don’t want to get better. I get quite tired of people telling me that their diet will ‘fix’ me. I don’t think they realise how many, often conflicting, dietary ‘cures’ are out there.

    • Shrubbery 33.2

      Aside the errant nonsense about extrapolating petri dish experiments to making inferences about human diets, let me clarify what tamoxifen does – it’s an anti-oestrogen. It’s used in treating breast cancer that is oestrogen sensitive. If you reduce the oestrogen levels, the cancer growth rate is slowed. Combined with anticancer drugs or radiation, this increases survival rates.
      It’s not too hard to check your understanding before you make statements like the above – wikipedia is a quick google away: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamoxifen

      • Belladonna 33.2.1

        A side effect of tamoxifen is uterine cancer, check it out for yourself.

        • Shrubbery

          And this arises out of its anti-androgen effect, and is also true of what, every oestrogen based contraception? Tamoxifen has demonstrated benefits greatly outweighing its risks, and it’s plain irresponsible to be running around bagging it while you’re on a drugs-are-bad-veganism-is-good kick.

          • Colonial Viper

            Tamoxifen has demonstrated benefits greatly outweighing its risks

            Except for the people who get uterine cancer it doesn’t.

  33. Belladonna 34

    Weston Price was a dentist and apparently later in life advised his family not to eat meat and dairy or so I have read.

    • weka 34.1

      Doubt it. WP’s body of work was on how traditional cultures had such excellent oral health due to their diets, which included meat and dairy (although meat and dairy in quite different forms than what we eat today).

  34. dimebag russell 35

    man I feel like a fresh baked gnu tonite!

  35. Tautoko Viper 36

    So the NZ Navy are to be welcomed into Pearl Harbour.
    “We’ve all been briefed on the background and the requirement for this to be seen as a keynote event in our history,” says Commander David Turner, HMNZS Canterbury commanding officer.

    What is the significance of this “keynote event”?

    • Colonial Viper 36.1

      The US needs allies to counterbalance China in the Pacific

      NZ would be stupid to pick sides in that coming superpower tussle

  36. dimebag russell 37

    no gnus is good gnus!

  37. dimebag russell 38

    ask any hominid hanging out in the paleolithic savannah circa 50,000 y.a.

  38. Colonial Viper 39

    The biggest robbery ever enacted upon the American people

    The US Federal Reserve

    A nice little 7 minute primer for those who are not yet familiar

  39. Herodotus 40

    How can someone be convicted for accepting a bribe and yet from this article no one be found guilty of offering?
    “Ping Ma and his wife, Jianping Shen, were convicted of accepting bribes and jailed for 13 and five years in prison respectively for obtaining $375,000 through the real estate deals.”

    • Murray Olsen 40.1

      It must be like all the times people would appear in court with resisting arrest as the only charge. I could never figure it out.

  40. swordfish 41

    Testing testing …

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