Open Mike 03/06/2017

92 comments on “Open Mike 03/06/2017 ”

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1. james 1

   3 June 2017 at 6:52 am

   Way to go Team New Zealand – superb effort this morning.

   Looking like the on form team so far. Kiwi ingenuity does well on the world stage again.
   • tc 1.1

     3 June 2017 at 9:04 am

     Boring boys and their toys event now IMO made watchable by introducing speed and technology.

     Used to be about yachts racing now it’s a dick measuring competition.
     • Cricklewood 1.1.1

       3 June 2017 at 9:39 am

       I like it, closest thing i can compare them to is the old group b rally cars.
       The technology involved and the skill level of the teams sailing them makes for great viewing.
   • Xanthe 1.2

     3 June 2017 at 7:59 pm

     But should be FTA
2. james 2

   3 June 2017 at 7:06 am

   http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4566964/Kathy-Griffin-claims-Trump-family-ruined-life.html

   She holds up a bloody severed trump head and then does the poor woe is me routine.

   What the hell did she expect.
   • Red Blooded 2.1

     3 June 2017 at 7:21 am

     You’re quite right James, now if you could point me towards your post rallying against Ted Nugent, also disgustingly threatening a President and a Contender for President with these quotes …

     “Obama, he’s a piece of shit. I told him to suck on my machine gun,” Nugent said during an appearance in 2007. “Hey, Hillary, you might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless bitch.”

     … then I might not see your comment as faux outrage and a simple excuse to attack people who don’t like The Trumpster.
     • James 2.1.1

       3 June 2017 at 7:25 am

       Never knew anything of it. But agree it’s disgusting.

       But love how your more interested in comments I may have made about (as it turns out) some thing I didn’t know about as opposed to the incident itself.

       Or is that just an easy way out attack the commenter as opposed to the issue.
       • adam 2.1.1.1

         3 June 2017 at 12:10 pm

         Love how you go straight for the poor me james, classy. Or is it because she a women that she can’t do it, but you as a male – have the right?
         • James 2.1.1.1.1

           3 June 2017 at 12:42 pm

           I’m pretty sure she didn’t read the standard.
           • adam 2.1.1.1.1.1

             3 June 2017 at 9:14 pm

             Good to see you try to cover up your sexist puffer, with a glib comment james. Irony is dripping when you condone violence towards children as well.
     • James 2.1.2

       3 June 2017 at 7:30 am

       “and a simple excuse to attack people who don’t like The Trumpster.”.

       This is where some lefties like yourself lose all credibility.

       I comment that a person in the media holds up a look a like decapated presidents head all covered in blood – and people like you try to make out it’s me who is using it as an attack.

       If you look at my post – I have been consistently against forms of violence and disgusting comments make against people. Same cannot be said for all on here.
       • Ad 2.1.2.1

         3 June 2017 at 11:08 am

         You just hang in there James.

         We need more people like you here to stop it getting all moist and self-congratulatory.

         But make sure you make us think.
       • Red Blooded 2.1.2.2

         3 June 2017 at 3:01 pm

         Haha, lucky my sense of self worth isn’t based on your opinion of my credibility then eh James. But then I’m not so thin skinned as the POTUS. I don’t see this as a Left/Right issue, perhaps your mentioning that proves the point you were using it as an attack of the left rather than some C grade celebrity. As I said I agree with you that Kathy Griffin’s stunt was awful as was the comment by Madonna at the Women’s March, as was the Ted Nugent comments (that I’m glad I got to educate you about, for your own credibility of course, as it had slipped passed you despite it being widely reported when Mr Trump welcomed him to the White House, ) and of course not to mention Mr Trump himself referring to a reporter bleeding from the whatever, and that he can grab women by the pussy. Please don’t see this as an attack, sweetie, I’m just highlighting the need for balance. Have a cracking day buddy.
   • Gabby 2.2

     3 June 2017 at 2:06 pm

     Bit like the Palinator gunsight thing.
3. Robert Guyton 3

   3 June 2017 at 8:25 am

   “For various reasons, acceptance of climate science breaks down along ideological lines. First, a majority of people in every state in the US believes, for instance, that the Paris Accord is a good thing, that the USA should participate. It turns out, however, that there is higher acceptance of climate science and acceptance of the importance of action on the coasts (California, Oregon, Washington, New York, etc.).

   There are exceptions to this rule but I am generalizing. It also turns out that the more liberal your politics are, the more likely you are to accept the science and the solutions. With respect to politics, the results are stunning. Vast majorities of Democratic and independent voters are supportive. Interestingly, small majorities of even conservative Republicans are supportive.”

   https://skepticalscience.com/reflections-on-politics-of-cc.html
4. saveNZ 4

   3 June 2017 at 9:46 am

   In China, the water you drink is as dangerous as the air you breathe

   https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jun/02/china-water-dangerous-pollution-greenpeace

   So that’s the state China has allowed their own country to get to…. what governance (sarc).
   • mpledger 4.1

     3 June 2017 at 1:19 pm

     And that’s why it’s crazy stuff to sell any of our land to them. If they don’t care enough about their own country to keep it livable why would they care two hoots about keeping our country livable.
5. greywarshark 5

   3 June 2017 at 10:16 am

   Postcards from the brighter future from Anthony Robins is a sort of Blip’s list of unsatisfactory happenings that trend downwards for our standard of living for us all and need urgent remediation.

   This one would interest Red Logix who has or had some rental properties. Others will disdain the thinking because they don’t agree with it, they will consider it wrong, even though it is legal and follows what have been found to be economic rules of supply and demand effect on prices. When they are operating on our necessities then we need to have government management to offset the simple economic answer to everything, housing at present in particular.

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/331952/auckland-agency-price-gouging-over-weekly-rent-rise

   I think this item covers the economic argument well. Putting the price up also acts as a means of lessening demand, which can be argued as bringing efficiency and self-choice, rather than other means of sorting through applicants which can result in other form of unfair selection. Yet would putting names in a hat be more acceptable and effective?
   • RedLogix 5.1

     3 June 2017 at 5:00 pm

     I don’t have an easy answer.

     Typically we look for long-term low risk tenants and we ‘reward’ them by keeping rent rises to a bare minimum.

     But every-time we have a new vacancy the demand is crazy. We do use this as the chance to get the rent back up to market. Even then we’ve literally had bidding wars going on right under our noses. When this happens we both feel pretty damned uncomfortable … I’m not looking for sympathy, but the sense of letting down all the hopefuls we cannot place is real for us.

     Our solution is a bit ad-hoc, we make a short-list and then delay making a decision for a week or so. In that time many will drop out and by then, after a few interactions, we usually find it fairly easy to make a decision.

     What we don’t do is just ramp the price up to eliminate people, because that’s filtering for all the wrong attributes.

     And for the past few years while we’ve been overseas we find good property managers will often be able to place excellent tenants, based on prior track record with them, without ever advertising.

     I know there’ll be the usual crowd who’ll read this and it will trigger their “I hate all bastard landlords” button, but I’ll hit ‘Submit’ because I want to give gws an transparent answer.
     • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.1

       3 June 2017 at 5:13 pm

       I don’t know about “all bastard landlords”, I just think it’s daft that our housing legislation makes for a lottery where the prize is you (ie: a ‘legitimate’ landlord).
     • greywarshark 5.1.2

       3 June 2017 at 9:10 pm

       Hi Red Logix, letting people cool off and looking for good managers seem to work for you. I would like to see an agency that tenants bought into that would give them ratings for quality. The agency would phone the landlord when they left and file a report, but they would also know how fair each was and which were mean-minded. It would be a help to tenants to have some reliable background when looking for a new place, and people could work to up their rating, It would be a small operation possibly run from a solicitor’s office to keep costs down, not a real estate place as there would be risk of bias and advantage.

       I remember in London in the 1970’s looking for a flat in a city area. You travelled by underground or bus, perhaps changing at some point and walked there to be 20 minutes before the set time and find a queue of dozen people there before you. Then some chap turned up at 10 minutes before and started to throw a panic attack and he got let through to the front. I have forgotten the rest.

       This all comes back to me and is not relevant but hell while I still can remember I’d better do so.

       I met a woman who was living an hour’s train ride away from London and wanted to move closer. She told me it was getting almost impossible because she was pregnant. When she started looking you couldn’t tell but as the fruitless months went by she got bigger and more definite noes. The government, trying to protect families from being asked to leave rentals and then not being able to find another home, had made a law that the landlord had to find alternative accommodation for them so no-one wanted to let to a family, to a to-be family, and even a married couple would be better to say they were just living together, as it seemed less likely that children would turn up.

       I ended up finding a nice place in Kilburn, which had four flats mostly occupied by Iranian men. They always had girls around, seemed pretty laid back, but then the Ayotollah put out a call for all true-born men to come home and fight and they were gone back to a stricter society. I also remember this new CBD building 33 stories high called Centrepoint. There was a big demand for offices but the owner left it empty and revalued the rental for each floor each month which provided collateral or looked good on the balance sheets.

       Interesting info about unintended consequence of the building. “On 19 June 2006 the Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment pointed to the building as an example of bad design, where badly-designed pavements force pedestrians into the bus lane and account for the highest level of pedestrian injuries in Central London. ”
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Point
6. Carolyn_nth 6

   3 June 2017 at 10:32 am

   In response to a comment in a Trump, planet climate discussion. The article quote about ragged trousered lefties and Corbyn, made me think of a great novel.

   The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists is such a great reality based novel: a UK socialist document, portraying the true state of class exploitation, as written by one of the working class.

   Ignored in its time, maybe it’s time has come with Corbyn?
   • Adrian Thornton 6.1

     3 June 2017 at 11:56 am

     Thanks for that suggestion, I will definitely search that one out.

     I know this is slightly different, but another very good book set of working class (or from peasant to working class) books are Maxim Gorky’s three autobiographies, My childhood, My apprenticeship and My universities, really quite painful and beautiful, my favourite Gorky.
     • Carolyn_nth 6.1.1

       3 June 2017 at 12:04 pm

       Thanks for the tip.

       Ragged Trousered Philanthropists is available free online.
       • Adrian Thornton 6.1.1.1

         3 June 2017 at 12:21 pm

         As I do have a secondhand bookshop, I better try and find myself a nice old hard copy, actually I just can’t read books like that digitally, I don’t mind reading reports, and stats online or on a e reader, but not more ‘personal. books, I don’t know why, just one of my many idiocracies.
         • greywarshark 6.1.1.1.1

           3 June 2017 at 12:46 pm

           I had a look at Trademe Adrian. Under Robert Tressell:
           There are some of the books, all from UK IIRR.

           This one has a cover with one supposes, the males of the era, all wearing caps and looking neat and decent. It’s about $17 with free shipping.
           http://www.trademe.co.nz/books/nonfiction/other/auction-1338230217.htm

           This one is the cheapest with a modern cover for $8.70.
           It is used but good condition. Free shipping.
           http://www.trademe.co.nz/books/nonfiction/other/auction-1338230217.htm

           There were none in the expired listings.
         • Siobhan 6.1.1.1.2

           3 June 2017 at 2:41 pm

           We have two copies in the shop, free chocolate fish if you can figure out where…
           • dv 6.1.1.1.2.1

             3 June 2017 at 3:04 pm

             On a shelf.
             • greywarshark …

               3 June 2017 at 3:53 pm

               dv
               Like it. There is often a simple answer overlooked.
           • Adrian Thornton 6.1.1.1.2.2

             3 June 2017 at 3:53 pm

             Damn I guess I won’t be getting any chocolate then…..
           • greywarshark 6.1.1.1.2.3

             3 June 2017 at 3:56 pm

             Intriguing about the shop Siobhan. I guess it isn’t in Ireland despite your Irish name. How much, do you post?
             • Siobhan …

               3 June 2017 at 6:01 pm

               Sorry greywarshark, turns out we’re down to one copy which Adrian gets seeing as he works here for free. He still has to find it though.
               • greywarshark …

                 3 June 2017 at 8:28 pm

                 Adrian works there for free. Surely he’s worth gold. Was it one of the really old editions?
           • The decrypter 6.1.1.1.2.4

             3 June 2017 at 4:40 pm

             On the outward postage table? (ordered by B English}
       • greywarshark 6.1.1.2

         3 June 2017 at 12:33 pm

         Carolyn-nth
         Thanks for The Ragged …
         I thought these paras resonated:

         Clearly frustrated at the refusal of his contemporaries to recognise the inequity and iniquity of society, Tressell’s cast of hypocritical Christians, exploitative capitalists and corrupt councillors provide a backdrop for his main target — the workers who think that a better life is “not for the likes of them”. Hence the title of the book; Tressell paints the workers as “philanthropists” who throw themselves into back-breaking work for poverty wages in order to generate profit for their masters.

         The hero of the book, Frank Owen, is a socialist who believes that the capitalist system is the real source of the poverty he sees all around him. In vain he tries to convince his fellow workers of his world view, but finds that their education has trained them to distrust their own thoughts and to rely on those of their “betters”.

         Much of the book consists of conversations between Owen and the others, or more often of lectures by Owen in the face of their jeering; this was presumably based on Tressell’s own experiences.

         I particularly liked the apposite and alliterative inequity and iniquity of society.
   • RedLogix 6.2

     3 June 2017 at 12:00 pm

     I have read this book some years ago. Alongside Orwell’s Down and Out in Paris and London it shaped my political perspectives deeply.

     Orwell himself wrote of it:

     praised the Noonan’s ability to convey without sensationalism “the actual detail of manual work and the tiny things almost unimaginable to any comfortably situated person which make life a misery when one’s income drops below a certain level.”

     He considered it “a book that everyone should read” and a piece of social history that left one “with the feeling that a considerable novelist was lost in this young working-man whom society could not bother to keep alive.”
     • Carolyn_nth 6.2.1

       3 June 2017 at 12:05 pm

       I also read it many decades ago and it made a big impression. It was a set text on a stage 3 English Lit course I did – the lecturer was a Brit leftie.
7. joe90 7

   3 June 2017 at 10:41 am

   Thread.

   1) Okay guys we need to talk about this Pittsburgh and Paris stuff. People are confused. It's about gender. (Thread below) https://t.co/AmR7yzl5V4— Michael Sweeney (@mtsw) June 2, 2017

   https://twitter.com/mtsw/status/870701731297935362
   • Ad 7.1

     3 June 2017 at 11:05 am

     Great comedy there.
     • joe90 7.1.1

       3 June 2017 at 11:07 am

       Off the mark, or dead wrong?.
       • Ad 7.1.1.1

         3 June 2017 at 11:10 am

         It’s better illustrated as a breakdown of Fox News viewers.
         Fox are the masters of precise gender targeting:

         https://qz.com/738346/fox-newss-biggest-problem-isnt-the-ailes-ouster-its-that-its-average-viewer-is-a-dinosaur/
         • joe90 7.1.1.1.1

           3 June 2017 at 11:20 am

           Choreographed and all.

           https://medium.com/@tobinsmith_95851/how-roger-ailes-fox-news-scammed-americas-la-z-boy-cowboys-for-21-years-1996ee4a6b3e
         • rhinocrates 7.1.1.1.2

           3 June 2017 at 3:51 pm

           Reminds me of a lament from a CEO or whatever of Cadillac some time back: “Pretty soon the average age of our buyers will be ‘deceased.'”
       • weka 7.1.1.2

         3 June 2017 at 1:06 pm

         I was going to put it up as a post.
   • Bill 7.2

     3 June 2017 at 2:17 pm

     Hmm, okay. So liberals in the US can’t sell liberalism. No loss.

     Liberalism’s some dripping gooey inoculation that tries to sell itself as progressive…a soap or barrier cream that’s sold for fear of infectious germs, when we all know that the germs (progressive or “leftist” values) are what we actually all need.

     Liberalism exorcised all of the dirt, blood and struggle of progressive or left politics… supplanting a brightly colored (sic) glossy magazine of pap in its stead. Liberalism is wringing hands, ringing representatives, writing letters to the editor and signing petitions.

     So now “the right” can take all manner of images associated with defiance or bravery or of being staunch – everything that liberalism fearfully washed away – and twist it as it sees fit.

     And on “the left” we can reject both and reclaim our heritage.

     Disclaimer: don’t bother writing to tell me I read too much into that twitter column 😉
     • Adrian Thornton 7.2.1

       3 June 2017 at 5:18 pm

       @Bill+1
       “And on “the left” we can reject both and reclaim our heritage.”

       I am with you there pal, reclaim our heritage and co opt anything that is useful from the right while we are at it.

       I have been debating with some friends that we should (on the Left) start using the word conservative, my argument being that to be a socialist today is in part being conservative in a modern sense.
       Conserving environment, communities, conserving human dignity for all citizens, conserving families, whatever that family might look like etc….

       Had a bit of push back of course, and I am not entirely tied to the idea either, but it makes for a great debate (in certain circles).
8. mauī 8

   3 June 2017 at 11:01 am

   Garner goes full #covfefe at the Greens:
   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/93267043/duncan-garner-the-rub-of-the-greens-the-party-thats-become-labours-little-play-thing
   • Bearded Git 8.1

     3 June 2017 at 11:31 am

     The Right is very scared of the unified Left.

     The Nats have had 9 years to reinvent themselves in a way the Greens might consider them possible coalition partners and have failed miserably.
9. Tautoko Mangō Mata 9

   3 June 2017 at 11:02 am

   I see that NZ citizen, Peter Thiel, is attending the 2017 Bilderberg meeting.
   http://www.globaltruth.net/2017-bilderberg-meeting-final-list-of-participants/

   If you have plenty of time, this is an interesting discussion on Bilderberg
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDJtBoYzzF0
10. swordfish 10

    3 June 2017 at 11:26 am

    Theresa May’s personal ratings fall as Labour reduces Conservative lead
    .

    IpsosMori Poll

    (1) Headline figures

    CON: … 45% (-4)
    LAB: …. 40% (+6)
    LDEM: … 7% (=)

    So, Tories 15 point lead in previous IpsosMori slashed to 5 points.

    __________________________________________________________________________________

    This is also the first Poll to record Labour ahead in the Initial results (which are fully weighted demographically but still include the Undecideds and haven’t been weighted for turnout). Hence, this Initial ‘All Giving a Voting Intention’ result arguably provides the purest snapshot of the Party preferences of all UK adults entitled to vote, regardless of whether they do, in fact, turn up on June 8.

    (2) Initial ‘All Giving a Voting Intention’ result

    LAB: …. 43%
    CON: … 40%
    LDEM: … 9%

    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    (3) Leader Satisfied / Dissatisfied ratings:

    May: 43 / 50 . …… Net minus 7
    Corbyn: 39 / 50 … Net minus 11

    First time May’s found herself in negative territory.

    (Compare with first IpsosMori after May called Election – 26 April 2017 =
    May: 56 / 37 …….. Net plus 19
    Corbyn: 27 / 62 … Net minus 35 )
    • Bearded Git 10.1

      3 June 2017 at 11:34 am

      Hey Swordfish looks at these numbers from MORI:

      “Among people aged 35-54 there has been an even more dramatic switch.
      Before the social care row they split 52-34 for the Conservatives. Now they divide 36 for the Conservatives and 46 for Labour. In other words, they have switched sides.”

      This kind of change is unheard of. Corbyn might just do it.
      • swordfish 10.1.1

        3 June 2017 at 12:36 pm

        “Among people aged 35-54 there has been an even more dramatic switch.”

        Yep, noticed that 🙂 … just been looking through the Poll’s entrails.

        Over recent days – far too much emphasis by naysayers on the idea that this swing to Labour is built solely upon weak foundations of (1) very young and (2) previous non-voters (who, of course, are historically less likely to vote).

        The swing’s far more diverse than that.

        I’ve even detected some movement in the latest YouGov among the solidly Tory Over-65s.

        Tories still very much odds-on … but things are dramatically moving in the right direction (or do I mean the Left direction ?)
        • Bearded Git 10.1.1.1

          3 June 2017 at 12:38 pm

          Agree all of that. Will be glued to live BBC feed on Friday.
          • weka 10.1.1.1.1

            3 June 2017 at 2:04 pm

            We should put up a discussion post too. Just making a note here for the times. That first exit poll would be 9am Friday NZT. Results might be in by 2pm or 3pm.

            
            Thursday 8 June

            Polling stations open in every town, city and village across the UK from 7am to 10pm.

            Millions cast their vote in the general election.

            An exit poll at 10pm gives the first indication of which way the wind is blowing.

            Counting takes place overnight, with the first seat to declare usually Sunderland before midnight.

            If it’s an easy victory for one side a result could be known by 3am or 4am.

            If it’s close there could still be uncertainty when Britain wakes up on the morning of Friday 9 June.

            http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/when-general-election-uk-2017-10247953?service=responsive
            • Bearded Git 10.1.1.1.1.1

              3 June 2017 at 2:57 pm

              Thanks for the times Weka-good idea on discussion post. Go the Corbynistas!
11. Adrian Thornton 11

    3 June 2017 at 11:32 am

    WTF…The Guardian comes out for Corbyn.
    Yes the Guardian has made a complete U-Turn and is now desperately trying to aline themselves on the right side of history, except it is to late for them, their credibility is already well and truly in the gutter, dirty filthy and soiled by the centrist neoliberal bullshit they have been trying to sell us so hard for so long.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/ng-interactive/2017/jun/02/the-guardian-view-on-our-vote-its-labour

    Just read the comments on their ‘coming out’ and you will see that most critical thinkers already read anything political that The Guardian put out with an extremely high degree of suspicion, it’s both sad and hilarious.

    Here is The Guardian’s normal default position 19 July 2016
    “Yes, Jeremy Corbyn has suffered a bad press, but where’s the harm?”
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/jul/19/yes-jeremy-corbyn-has-suffered-a-bad-press-but-wheres-the-harm

    Like all these fucking useless ‘centre lefties’ they have shown us yet again that the centre stands only for moral and principled ambiguity…no, you can be sure you will never find lines in the sand from these political prostitutes…and they want us to vote for Anna Lorck or Stuart Nash here in the Bay..what a joke.
    Nash…
    Let’s be clear about one thing: politics is about winning. There is no such thing as a ‘glorious defeat’, leaders who lose are not, as some may believe, ‘martyrs to the cause’, and ‘coming second but maintaining our principles’ is a ludicrous proposition.
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/10/31/tdb-guest-blog-project-stuart-nash-the-most-pressing-issue-in-nz-right-now/
    This from a guy who has Just been bumped up the Labour list..but hey he is hard on crime.
    • greywarshark 11.1

      3 June 2017 at 12:59 pm

      Hey Adrian, give The Guardian some, guarded, positives. We are hoping for change aren’t we? Better it happens, than not at all or overwhelmingly.
      • Adrian Thornton 11.1.1

        3 June 2017 at 1:44 pm

        I am just not that forgiving…so sorry to be rude, but fuck them.
        It is my view that The Guardian and other so called ‘liberal’ MSM media organizations have got more culpability for the victory of Trump than the republican party itself.
        They relentlessly undermined and belittled the only real progressive in the US during the primaries, and therefore split the Left, and in the UK The Guardian in particular have been obsessive in their open hostility to Corbyn, it is only that the ‘manufacturing consent’ media model is now for all intents and purposes practically defunct, that Corbyn is now doing so well…and he and the Left own NOTHING of that success to The Guardian or their contemporaries.
      • greywarshark 11.1.2

        3 June 2017 at 4:30 pm

        Saw that link to TDB and Stuart Nash. This from him – so patronising.

        Our supporters have the same impact when they squabble, bitch and back-stab on so-called ‘left-friendly’ sites like The Standard (a dreadful 21st century bastardisation of a once proud Labour broadsheet). Criticising your favourite Labour MP is not the route to victory, no matter what you think of their philosophies, hair or politics.

        Someone who groups philosophies, hair and politics as equally unsuitable for discussion on a political site is seriously lacking in gravitas and nous. And that comment is made without knowing just how his hair is arranged.

        (Does Joyce dye his do you think? It looked like it on the recent close up image we had.) And that just shows how catholic I am in my interests. And by the way that has nothing to do with religion Stuart, in case you think of adding it to the list we shouldn’t discuss. I remember the social advice – never discuss sex, politics or religion at the dinner table, or everyone will make a meal out of it.
        • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.2.1

          3 June 2017 at 5:00 pm

          Nash protesteth too much. When he can point to good behaviour in the House he can start bagging the mosh pit.
    • Bill 11.2

      3 June 2017 at 1:01 pm

      Love how they have another story about previous election endorsements – I kind of read it as. “The Guardian: Supporting Libourish Parties Since Forever”
    • weka 11.3

      3 June 2017 at 1:10 pm

      Is that what passes for an Editorial at the Guardian? (opinion piece but can’t see a name)
    • rhinocrates 11.4

      3 June 2017 at 6:12 pm

      ‘Guardian reader’ has long been shorthand for ‘tourist’, ‘fairweather friend’ and ‘boring wanker who drones on sanctimoniously at dinner parties and turns into a rabid Tory once their property values are threatened’. They’re someone who when the going gets tough, gets going… back into the arms of authority (like Russell Brown).
12. greywarshark 12

    3 June 2017 at 1:56 pm

    I have said for a time that making unmarried mothers applying for benefits name the father so that the government can collect money from them, brings consequences on the woman and child that can far outweigh any support money that can be extracted. A woman trying to bring up a child in a good way, apart from some one-night stand of lust and thoughtlessness should be given every encouragement and support and be helped to stick to an achievable plan. Then she can decide if it is appropriate to include the man.

    But the government has been ruled by prejudices against children and fertile women who don’t fit into their minimal plans to enable them to lead lives that encourage their potential and ready them for part-time work only, when the child is say, three.
    If they have another baby then there is a choice, they have a long-term contraceptive device, or name the man with all that involves. It is fair for the government to set some rules, and I believe this should be what happens.

    It is what feminists wanted, rights for single and solo parents, but women or men shouldn’t have to rely on someone who is going to be a destroyer of a stable family home and family.
    https://blog.greens.org.nz/2017/06/03/social-security-bill-affecting-single-mothers-across-new-zealand/
    • weka 12.1

      3 June 2017 at 2:54 pm

      Do you support abortion on demand?
      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        3 June 2017 at 3:48 pm

        I support abortion after counselling, and offers of help so that the woman has a range of options, and these not to be carried out by some religious or other group pushing their own pushchair. But after a number, the matter would need to be reviewed for health reasons, including mental health.
    • JanM 12.2

      3 June 2017 at 2:59 pm

      “apart from some one-night stand of lust and thoughtlessness” – really???
    • Patricia 12.3

      3 June 2017 at 5:01 pm

      If the mother is not married to the father then he must sign, therefore acknowledging paternity. If he chooses not to sign then technically the mother is deemed to have not named the father. I have talked to mothers told to get DNA tests to prove paternity but they are not compulsory and the alleged father can (and often does) refuse to co-operate. The cost of a DNA test is prohibitive. So it is not always a night of lust / one night stand but often a dead beat male unwilling to accept his responsibilities.
      • greywarshark 12.3.1

        4 June 2017 at 8:07 am

        That’s the point Patricia. The woman hasn’t a good relationship with a guy, he is someone she has been unfortunate to meet and for some reason, had sex with, and that type is more likely to not ‘accept his responsibilities’. He may not be a dead beat male, just one that wanted sex and expected her to take care of the contraception, and would feel aggrieved at being landed with long-term paternity cares and costs.

        As RedbaronCV says, contraception should be the concern of both but not all men are willing to use condoms if they can get away with it.

        And condoms should be used as the latest news is that HIV is rising and just as the government cares so little for supporting the good progress of young NZs and their children, I presume it is not impossible for them to baulk at paying out large sums for life-long medication for careless people.

        It’s not beyond bounds of the authoritarian state that it would ban sexual
        interaction except under a health licence, because it is a vector for disease. Even kissing. The trend to efficiency and control of people by government proceeds in NZ already without any feeling of responsibility to use the power of government to enable people to have good lives. This can extend much further than anyone has yet thought to forecast. The wealthy are already dividing themselves from the poor with whom they do not insist that tax money should be shared. They are SEP and different, not one of us.
      • RedLogix 12.3.2

        4 June 2017 at 9:10 am

        @ Patricia

        What I’m hearing is that some women seem to want their cake and eat it. For decades they have rightly demanded and fought for control of their bodies, their sexuality, their access to contraception and their reproductive rights.

        I have not the slightest quibble with any of this.

        At the same time men have been largely removed from the equation; beyond abstinence and using condoms, males have almost no rights in the matter at all. This is very much how women have wanted it.

        Yet it’s clear most women expect that if they do choose to have a child, the father is expected to be responsible for 20 years of child support. If they dare object to this … to having greatly reduced rights and but an undiminished burden …. they’re shamed as ‘dead beats’.

        A constructive discussion needs to move on from this; if we expect men to participate in parenting as equals, maybe their voices and experiences need to considered as well.
    • RedBaronCV 12.4

      3 June 2017 at 6:16 pm

      Contraception is more than a female responsibility no matter how one night the stand so why should the caregiver & child be “punished”.

      And I’d believe in the economic argument a bit more if the identified fathers particularly the wealthy actually had to pay reasonable amounts for their kids.

      To make that point – when asked a scant few years ago it appeared that in only 1 case was the child support assessment greater than the benefit with the extra being paid over.
      There is also a strong economic case for the child money to be a separate benefit from the adult money. So child support collected or a child benefit could be paid over intact with the adult benefit a separate amount if only to stop money for the children being absorbed as an offset to an adult benefit that others get of right.
      • greywarshark 12.4.1

        3 June 2017 at 9:33 pm

        Red BaronCV
        You are looking at the woman as a problem costing money which should be handled efficiently. If a lump sum could be got from a wealthy father then by all means, put the screws on and they would pay up to avoid having long years of payments. As for the others, they find it annoying to have some fun and then be lumbered. Having the father come round grudgingly or to make sure he gets his moneysworth can be injurious to the family relationship she is trying to build.

        I would like to see the woman be given what she needs such as a home, and perhaps spending the time preparing for the baby with life training, cooking, learning how to do things not known before, sewing, putting up shelves, using a screwdriver and hammer, what a householder needs.

        She would get transport with a group going to pre-natal classes and not drink alcohol. If she honestly couldn’t keep away from alcohol because of peer or family pressure, she might have a little holiday away from her home, if she wished. That sort of thing, asking and helping the woman with her needs has a much warmer sound than your careful, rather clinical approach.

        Budgeting for two would be best, not separate bank accounts, and using the time for formal education, planning with achievable goals, NCEA in mothercare, getting a drivers licence, using a computer. What a fruitful time for her and she’d be ready to go with a positive attitude. And could fall back for advice on some reliable person she liked for free.

        In Iceland I think, they have the habit of preparing a gift to the baby from the state, they like children apparently, unlike here where it has always seemed to me that a farming attitude is too often seen where some callousness and management approach arises too often. Even pushing women out of hospital on the day of birth instead of allowing rest and feeding to get under way.
13. greywarshark 13

    3 June 2017 at 3:45 pm

    There is such a thing JanM. It happens, fact. It’s just a matter of allowing people to be people not to follow some PC idea that feminists think up.
    • JanM 13.1

      3 June 2017 at 5:51 pm

      Right – that clears that up then! (sarc)
      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        3 June 2017 at 6:44 pm

        JanM
        What are you on about? Care to relate it in 50 words or less.
        • rhinocrates 13.1.1.1

          3 June 2017 at 9:51 pm

          50 words or less? Well how’s that for patronising sexism? That sort of crap usually appears in bullshit bingo grids as “educate me because I can’t be arsed listening to anyone and what you tell me will go in one ear and out the other anyway, so don’t bother, just shut up.”

          OK, I’m not a woman, and it would be presumptuous to call myself a feminist, but show some basic respect when a woman relates her experience of sexism.
    • rhinocrates 13.2

      3 June 2017 at 6:43 pm

      Usually when someone says ‘fact’ as a punctuation it means ‘according to my prejudices.’ And ‘PC’? Who uses that without irony now?

      JanM: “apart from some one-night stand of lust and thoughtlessness” – really???

      Yeah, amazing, isn’t it? It’s OK for men to do that, but it’s those wicked Jezebels who end up with the consequences. The pseudo-leftist’s idea of the rational individual without biology, race or gender is as fantastical as the neoliberal’s ‘rational consumer.’

      Feminism is all about allowing women ‘to be people,’ not cherry-picked rhetorical examples. Feminists do not just ‘think up’ stuff but speak from their experience as women and put it in context. They are certainly not objects to be monitored and regulated by the state as you propose.

      Try listening to what women have to say about their experience.

      But after a number, the matter would need to be reviewed for health reasons, including mental health.

      Interesting. So you pathologise female sexuality but not male and propose an authoritarian oversight. How about the same test for men who have been reckless with their use of contraception? Why is it the women who have to be regulated and checked by the state alone? ‘None of your fucking business’ would be a perfectly justified answer to that.
      • greywarshark 13.2.1

        3 June 2017 at 6:48 pm

        rhinocrates
        Do you feel better now after thundering to me from your prominent height? You are full of prejudices which get in the way of caring about the person at hand who is a pregnant female with all the possibilities and problems of life for two ahead for her. I think she should have help and services to aid her. What would you give her – a tirade?
        • rhinocrates 13.2.1.1

          3 June 2017 at 9:31 pm

          Which is exactly what you give her – a moralistic finger-wagging about how she should behave and how the state should regulate her behaviour. It’s not about me and you and your precious feelings about being told off, it’s about her rights as a woman and a human being. She is not to be ‘corrected’ if she doesn’t meet your moral standards.

          Fuck you and your phoney white knighting. You’re not her champion, she’s her own. The state has no right to manage her vagina.
          • rhinocrates 13.2.1.1.1

            3 June 2017 at 9:43 pm

            This is particularly egregious:

            But after a number, the matter would need to be reviewed for health reasons, including mental health.

            Because she just can’t think for herself and needs guidance from the state, right?

            Why is it women who need regulation in particular?

            Let me define white knighting for you. It goes like this: “women need to be protected… helped… guided… controlled.”
          • greywarshark 13.2.1.1.2

            4 June 2017 at 8:48 am

            rhinocrates
            hope you are not counselling women. They would go away full of anger and hopelessness. Having rights doesn’t feed you, it doesn’t help you manage your life better, it’s learning how to do it and getting assistance when needed that is the clincher for success and happiness. Not a toxic lot of negative opinion and theory about people who try and find practical ways to honour and advance the rights that you spout. That doesn’t result in happiness.
14. Carolyn_nth 14

    3 June 2017 at 4:19 pm

    Being circulated on twitter: a UK Labour campaign vid by Ken Loach. Hard hitting socialist message.
    • Bill 14.1

      3 June 2017 at 4:54 pm

      Demand?! In the UK maybe. In NZ…yeah, not so much. 😉

      Nice wee film though.
      • weka 14.1.1

        3 June 2017 at 8:22 pm

        We’ve demanded things before and gotten them. I think we’re just at a different stage of the cycle.
15. Ed 15

    3 June 2017 at 4:21 pm

    Manchester, Theresa May, Libya, Saudi Arabia and the petrodollar.
    This article contains so much valuable information and explains a lot.

    The section on the petrodollar.
    Not many people will know this.

    ‘To the Americans and British, Gadaffi’s true crime was his iconoclastic independence and his plan to abandon the petrodollar, a pillar of American imperial power. He had audaciously planned to underwrite a common African currency backed by gold, establish an all-Africa bank and promote economic union among poor countries with prized resources. Whether or not this would have happened, the very notion was intolerable to the US as it prepared to “enter” Africa and bribe African governments with military “partnerships”.

    And the bit about Manchester and May.

    ‘The alleged suicide bomber, Salman Abedi, was part of an extremist group, the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, that thrived in Manchester and was cultivated and used by MI5 for more than 20 years.

    The LIFG is proscribed by Britain as a terrorist organisation which seeks a “hardline Islamic state” in Libya and “is part of the wider global Islamist extremist movement, as inspired by al-Qaida”.

    The “smoking gun” is that when Theresa May was Home Secretary, LIFG jihadists were allowed to travel unhindered across Europe and encouraged to engage in “battle”: first to remove Mu’ammar Gadaffi in Libya, then to join al-Qaida affiliated groups in Syria.’

    http://johnpilger.com/articles/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know
16. rhinocrates 16

    3 June 2017 at 5:36 pm

    Essential listening:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201846255/jonathan-taplin-social-media-vs-democracy

    He has recently published Move Fast & Break Things: How Facebook, Google and Amazon Cornered Culture and Undermined Democracy.
17. beatie 17

    3 June 2017 at 7:38 pm

    This was in yesterday’s Press,
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/93218681/beggars-are-a-plague-on-our-house

    Just appalling! Does the author ever wonder how people cope with Winz 13 week stand downs and other sanctions. What about the thousands who are neither on a benefit or in work?
18. Ad 18

    3 June 2017 at 7:44 pm

    I can’t decide who I would want to hear more of:
    President Trump, or President Underwood:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKe-8kpNVsU

    Awesome work Frank.
19. Draco T Bastard 19

    3 June 2017 at 8:37 pm

    No, travelling isn’t character-building — it’s just fun

    Lisbon is a great city that became more not less open to outsiders after the crash. I like it enough to return soon. But did I learn much or emerge an improved person? No. On my travels, I seldom do, and I am not sure that anyone does.

    The more of the world I see, the less confident I am that there is anything innately or even generally educational about travel.

    An interesting take on travel.
    • Incognito 19.1

      3 June 2017 at 9:23 pm

      Subscription required? Shame though because I think I’d disagree but without reading it …
      • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1

        3 June 2017 at 10:27 pm

        I don’t have a subscription to FT and I’m not even signed in on my free account. They usually allow you to read one or two articles per month without bothering you about paying them.

        Here’s another paragraph that rings true IME:

        Imagine you are an employer staring at two job applications that are identical in all respects save one. Candidate A spent a year between school and university seeing the world, like a Regency fop on his Grand Tour. Candidate B spent the same year stacking shelves in a local supermarket. One of the hopefuls showed self-reliance, practical nous and a certain grown-upness. The other is Candidate A. Yet ours is still a world that rewards the gap-year itinerant — often funded or backstopped by parents — with the job, where “well-travelled” is still a synonym for “clever”, where sophisticates still cite that snide statistic about the percentage of Americans who have no passport, as though nothing could damn the global superpower more.

        Travel has intellectual associations it no longer deserves. It is a hangover from a time when so few went abroad, and so little knowledge about the outside world was accessible to those who did not, that people with a few international excursions under their belt could claim a genuine cultural edge.
20. Muttonbird 20

    4 June 2017 at 5:50 am

    Surely if the Nats have forced Auckland City Council to bring in a congestion charge, Auckland people will punish them heavily in September.

    That the ordinary workers of Auckland will have to pay for the years of infrastructure underspend while sitting in gridlock should make them very angry.

    The Labour campaign team should be looking at this very closely.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/06/government-to-make-road-pricing-announcement-phil-goff.html

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