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Open mike 03/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:26 am, September 3rd, 2014 - 174 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

174 comments on “Open mike 03/09/2014 ”

  1. AsleepWhileWalking 2

    The latest in the Work and Income slayings

    Increase of threats to staff (most disturbing IMHO)

    Ex WINZ worker says clients often get angry

    CCTV footage in leadup to shooting appears to show targets selected in advance

    • weka 2.1

      Don’t know if it’s too soon to have this conversation,

      [she] was renowned at Ashburton’s Work and Income centre for being “hard but fair”. But friends say [her] uncompromising approach to work was designed to ensure people didn’t take advantage of the welfare system, or be rewarded for laziness.

      (have removed the identifying details because I don’t think this is about the individual who has died).

      Obviously shooting someone was very very wrong.

      “Hard but fair”, and wanting people to not be rewarded for laziness rings alarm bells for me, because these are the attitudes that mean people don’t have enough to live on, don’t have enough to eat, are permanently stressed, sometimes it makes them ill or prevents them from looking after their health, it affects children’s wellbeing and ability to develop, it pushes people to the edge etc etc. It entrenches poverty and it entrenches the underclass. This isn’t about blaming the victim (Tully was responsible for his own actions). It’s about understand just how extreme the situation has gotten for many beneficiaries, and the ways in which WINZ creates and enables that.

      For me it’s also about challenging the notion that the only real problem here is structural/instiutional. It’s not. There are people who work for WINZ whose personal beliefs and politics affect how they do their job, both attitudinally and in terms of making decisions about entitlements. Yes, the institutional problems are massive and need to be addressed. So do the attitudes of individuals and within society. Remember the painter on the roof story, Mr Shearer? This is why we reacted so badly.

      It doesn’t suprise me that there have been other threats at other offices. There are too many people out there in too much pain and whose own attitudes about violence and responsibility have been cultivated. However the voices of beneficiaries will mostly continue to go unheard, and the people who are disconnected from that reality will continue to ask largely irrelevant and ignorant questions like how can a homeless person on a benefit afford to own a shotgun and ammunition.

      • tricledrown 2.1.1

        Ffs stop making excuses for this guys behaviour Mental health services a virtually non existent in small town New Zealand !
        That is the problem Mental health in New Zealand is seen as a weakness seeking help is seen as a weakness!
        The there is the Macho male thing whether it be physical or mental male just gloss over their health problems and pretend there’s nothing wrong!
        Mentally ill people self Medicate with street procured drug’s
        Any one with serious Mental issues self prescribing will only make any problem far worse!
        Ashburton’s has a very Dark underbelly and illegal drugs off any kind are freely available!
        Police propaganda saying their high profile busts stop the supply of drugs barely make a dent in supply!
        Gangs have proliferated under this govt they are making big money out of illicit drugs especially highly addictive drugs which users have to have at all cost’s!
        Free market supply and demand !
        These highly addictive drugs are very easy to move around perfect for gangs!

        • weka

          Please point very specifically to where I excused his behaviour. Did you even read what I wrote?

          I’m not sure why you are talking about mental health and drugs.

          • vto

            You did nothing of the sort of course weka, it is bleedingly obvious and it annoys me that idiots like trcledown jump to stupid conclusions that bear no relation to what was written.

            The “hard but fair” statement is telling and may well be what you opine, namely that people bring their own personal beliefs to such jobs when they shouldn’t. And I imagine such imposition of personal beliefs onto beneficiaries would be incendiary to some.

            I made some posts around this subject that this act was a form of civil war against the government. That suggestion wasn’t made lightly and I also wondered what would develop if the next day (today) more Winz offices were subjected to threats and closed…..

            ….. and looky at what is happening. Winz offices under threat and closure today. It is indeed a parlous situation – these sorts of acts indicate a breakdown of society….

            … our good ol’ safe-as. nothing like that happens here, head in the bloody sand, NZ society….

            NZ society is breaking down. I suspect it will get worse yet ..

            People should wake the fuck up

            • weka

              This just up on RNZ,

              The Ministry of Social Development (MSD) will post 100 extra security guards at Work and Income offices nationwide, following the Ashburton shootings and ongoing threats.
              MSD chief executive Brendan Boyle made the announcement a joint press conference with police in Wellington.

              He said as well as the extra 100 security guards, police would also have a presence at Christchurch offices.

              There have been nine serious incidents at Work and Income offices since the Ashburton shooting on Monday, which claimed the lives of Peggy Noble and Leigh Cleveland. A third woman, Lindy Curtis, was seriously injured and remains in Christchurch Hospital.

              Earlier today, all Canterbury Work and Income offices were closed after a threat was made against staff, this time at a branch in Christchurch.

              A ministry spokesperson earlier could not say what time the threatening phone call was made but said it came through one of their contact centres.


              I’m guessing nine in 3 day is a lot.

              Not sure what they mean by contact centre. Is that the 0800 number?

              I can understand them closing the offices, but esp in Chch there will be some people needing urgent help, and this is going to make things much harder. At the very least WINZ and the media could be telling people how to get assistance if their office is closed. They also immediately need to increase staff at the call centre, which too often has very long delays.

              Edit: yep, just rang the call centre number and it’s got a message about high caller demand and delays (as well as which offices are closed).

            • weka

              “People should wake the fuck up”

              True. It’s a volatile situation all round, we need to take care too.

            • crocodill

              “…NZ society is breaking down…”

              Waaay back in the mists of time… 2011 I think it was, Key and his friends were trying it on saying that the “social contract” was pretty much an affirmation that those in power should be dominant and those without power should shut up and do what they’re told. This of course is the complete opposite of what The Social Contract means. Not a peep from our media in defence of what they would, when the mood suits them, call “constitutional principles”.

              Society HAS broken down. It’s not like something that goes ‘snap’ in the night, suddenly. It may not even have a ‘tipping point’. It just starts a slow decay and the stages become more and more obvious.

              Was just saying to a friend this morning: whoever gets in government next, it’s the last one, a caretaker administration, before what we know as government and politics in this country changes forever. To my eye the “bad guys” don’t even believe their own slogans anymore, but will push on anyway, exhausted. The “good guys” have been bumbling along for too long and are out of puff and despite having some good ideas, are really just like a single nurse doing the basics while more wounded keep coming. That’s going to leave a big vacuum to be filled by something very soon, maybe just continuous caretaking, maybe something more extreme. Government don’t seem to realise that when they break the social contract, they lose relevance and power. They can tell the army to start shooting, but they will no longer call the shots.

  2. Saarbo 3

    This morning Fonterra’s GDT auction dropped another 6%, the international dairy price is in free fall, mainly because of extra supply from USA and Europe. The international dairy market is currently being flooded with dairy produce due to both Euro and US increasing production by 4% to 5%.

    Last Wednesday Fonterra held their pay-out at $6 kg MS. I have been told by a reliable source that if the GDT was reflected in the pay-out then the pay-out should be closer to $5.00 rather than $6.00. Westland Milk Products and Open Country Cheese have both announced pay-outs in the $5 range.

    I do wonder whether Fonterra has announced an inflated dairy pay-out pre-election to help reduce the chances of National being voted out…proof will be at the end of November when they update the price.

    • tc 3.1

      More than likely, the method of deriving the value is equal parts logic and politics and it is mostly shrouded so only a select few know whats really going on with the massive overheads within Fonterra.

    • Tracey 3.2

      The price has halved since February 4

      “The average winning price at last night’s auction was US$2787 (NZ$3354) compared to a peak of US$5042 on February 4. ”

      Surely farmers watch the numbers (as above) rather than rely on a pay-out per se? They will always have an eye on the next year or two?

      • Saarbo 3.2.1

        2 points
        1) $6 kg ms is a threshold, anything under $6 is disastrous for many dairy farmers.
        2)Normally this early season forecast is treated very conservatively by Fonterra, they will err on the lower side rather than the upper end. For some reason they have gone for a higher payout than is probable, this is unprecedented.

        I suspect that this decision was made because farmers are incredibly fearful of a government with the Greens in it (Personally I support the Greens, and am a member of Labour, so don’t take this comment the wrong way, it is just what I hear from farmers)…this in a way as an extension of the #dirtypolitics that is creeping in with this Key led government.

  3. (headlines you would like to see:..an occaisonal series..)

    “..s.s.key hits whale – is sunk..”

  4. Adrian 5

    Couple of things from last night that seem to have been missed.
    Did the Fat Controller really try to get rid of Roger Sutton and how big was the argument beteen him and English?
    Why was TFC ( Brownlee ) looking like it was the last place in the world he wanted to be and what does he know is coming down the line, or has he been seriously sidelined in the huge power strggles going on inside National?

  5. amirite 6

    I’ve been following the Dirty Politics saga and all the grubby stuff coming out to do with Collins, WhaleOil & co and I’m still shaking my head in disbelief that there’s still a big chunk of public supporting the Nats. I’m in no doubt that if it was the other way round, Labour would be out of office already because people would be protesting on the streets. And yet, they’re ready to swallow any old shit this Govt and Key serves them.

    • Paul 6.1

      That’s what happens on a diet of ZB, 7 Sharp, sport and reality TV.

    • tc 6.2

      Thats because the game is rigged in their favour, angles, framing, specific wording of questions and the big issue being keys use of sis not being pursued.

      Collins goes temporarily under a bus, my how convenient. If this was oz key would have been laid to waste by their media who smell blood and go for the jugular whereas here they sort of did that for a short time till steve wonder produced a diversion they could all follow and off they trot.

      wake up nz youre being conned…….again.

    • Potato 6.3

      People were protesting on the streets on Aug 30 and will be again on Sept 13. Lets hope the MSM take notice this time (and slippery John doesnt have any news conferences timed to coincide).

  6. Steve 7

    Audrey Young calls last night’s debate for Key in today’s Herald because of his “hit” on Cunliffe re: capital gains tax.

    You could say it was Key at his best, if it weren’t for the fact he was wrong.

    Key claimed under Labour’s policy 300,000 homes in Family Trusts would be subject to CGT even if they were owner occupied. This was simply wrong but according to Audrey that’s incidental – never let facts get in the way of “the game” eh Audrey. Pathetic

    • Tracey 7.1

      So she did point out Key was wrong? So wouldn’t her Headline have been “Key lies about CGT to win debate”

      BUT she did point out he was wrong and that will be read by swinging voters as key lied.

      • tc 7.1.1

        Like the headline where key lied about umemployment, got corrected by DC, reaffirmed the lie in the TV1 debate………still waiting.

    • Armchair Critic 7.2

      Given how donkey deep the Herald is in dirty politics, and in spite of their denials in the last week or two, the scores given by the Herald team on last night’s debate are not just expected, they are required.

      • Tigger 7.2.1

        Visit the Herald page on a desktop and the huge faces of their political team appear as wallpaper, Fran O’Sullivan and Mike Hosking staring like at you like Big Brother. Made me navigate away immediately.

    • Bearded Git 7.3

      On Morning Report this morning Brent Edwards before 8 am and 2 political experts at about 8-15 pretty much called the debate a draw, and all 3 discussed intelligently issues raised by the debate. Both worth a listen.

      Cunliffe had the one weak spot with the CGT (but chose the right option not to answer rather than answer wrong and be crucified) but was strong the rest of the time. And as you say above Steve, Key was wrong on CGT.

      It continues to stagger me how biased, how pro-Key the Herald is, especially Armstrong and Young.

      • phillip ure 7.3.1

        i particularly liked cunliffes’ closing bit..

        ..and his hammering of key over his bullshit that ‘raising the minimum wage’ will cost jobs..

        ..how cunnliffe used irrefutable facts/figures to put that myth to bed..

        ..this is one of cunnliffes’ strengths..(that i saw him use in parl. to good effect..)

        ..he should play to it more often..

      • mikesh 7.3.2

        Parker, on Morning Report said that if a business was sold at the owner’s retirement it would not be subject to capital gains tax. However, if the business utilised freehold land it’s difficult to see how that land could be exempt. He claims that the profit on the sale of a business is “goodwill” rather than capital gain but I think that that is not quite correct in that some of that profit may in fact be due to an increase in the value of assets employed by the business.

  7. felix 8

    Remember when Hoots had that massive stick in his arse about wanting to “regulate” the lobbying industry? Makes a lot more sense now.

    *you don’t see, what I see, every day as carrick g*…

  8. Tiger Mountain 9

    WHO to vote for:
    the only ‘all seats’ guide for a change of government from the tory swine I have seen yet;

    … and WHERE to vote,

    Elections NZ has got this working at last, just two clicks and your local list of polling places appears. ‘forgot’, ‘hangover’, ‘had work/sports on Saturday’ “just didn’t get around to it’ etc do not apply this election.

    ‘it is all a charade, don’t want to encourage them, nothing will change till the revolution comes’ is still a fair enough reason for some though. Hopefully it remains just some political thinkers though, not hundreds of thousands of alienated and marginalised who could actually do with some reforms like a minimum wage rise .

    • miravox 9.1

      Thanks for that TM. I have just downloaded my voting papers for overseas and was worried about how close the competition was in my electorate. I guess it’s electorate vote Labour (as long as nothing changes in the next week).

    • Rosie 9.2

      Thanks for the info Tiger Mountain. Thrilled to see our polling station is a walk down the road to the Papa Kainga, a buzz of community activity and togetherness. Nice.

  9. crocodill 10

    And now to interrupt your scheduled viewing…

    I propose an oasis of music here for people to absorb at their leisure as they tear about reading and reacting. Post links to anything you like to listen to, plus a general “genre” description to help people find what they want without wasting their band allowance.

    Opening contribution:

    Rudimental: Solo.

    Genre: errm, UK freestyle pop-dub step? LoL released 2013.

    • Rosie 10.1

      Nice sounds Crox. Like the relaxed dubbiness.

      I always use musical interludes as a counter weight to intense times. Especially now there is a feeling of a charged political atmosphere and something like a chasm opening up in our society in the wake of the two WINZ workers being killed. Such a deeply sad and traumatic time for the victims families, their co workers, and friends and something very sad about the mounting sense of desperation that may have been the root cause of this. There is so much loss on individual and societal levels.

      Didn’t watch the remainder of the debate last night.(Although it appears I missed the best part) I just can’t bear to watch Key any more and instead turned over to Maori TV to watch a doco called Utopia by John Pilger about the oppression and theft of culture and rights of the Aborigine.

      (I agree with some comments that Key may have been on something last night. That inane grin, those glassy eyes and the unguarded loud mouth moments. On the other hand as weka suggested he may just have been suffering the effects of stress. Adrenalin can do odd things to the body and affect behaviour)

    • TE 10.2

      Great music thanks for the introduction,
      Why was Key sweating last night?

      Look, at the end of the day,
      Radiohead says it well

      But I’m a creep
      I’m a weirdo
      What the hell am I doing here?
      I don’t belong here

  10. disturbed 11

    The price has halved since February 4

    “The average winning price at last night’s auction was US$2787 (NZ$3354) compared to a peak of US$5042 on February 4. ”

    Surely farmers watch the numbers (as above) rather than rely on a pay-out per se? They will always have an eye on the next year or two?”

    I say;
    Live cattle shipments to China are not helping keep jobs here either, and last month there was a large upswing in export of live cattle, so how does this generate increased export of value added products?

    This country now has no long term economic policies under this Government only a quick flog it off policy while we can, or a hollowing out of the economy.

    • greywarbler 11.1

      This country now has no long term economic policies under this Government only a quick flog it off policy while we can, or a hollowing out of the economy.

      Too true.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.2

      Live cattle shipments to China are not helping keep jobs here either, and last month there was a large upswing in export of live cattle, so how does this generate increased export of value added products?

      It doesn’t which is all to the good as it’ll prove the delusion of 1) trade being necessary and 2) that it’ll make us rich.

    • Saarbo 11.3

      I understand the live trade is being driven by a large outbreak of foot and mouth in China last year leading to the slaughter of a large portion of their national dairy herd. Apparently this was also the major reason that China demanded so much dairy product last year. Interestingly If you look at all Bank Economists reports last year, I don’t believe one mentioned foot and mouth as the reason for the growth in demand, all that was mentioned was “a restructuring of their dairy industry”. It seems that China managed to keep this hushed up. But the live trade is huge currently.

  11. Bearded Git 12

    Voting starts TODAY. David Cunliffe and Metiria Turei are cleverly voting today to encourage a good turnout.

    The best way to get rid of Key (putting aside partisan constituency feelings) is:

    Green Party Supporters-Party Vote Green
    Labour Party Supporters-Party Vote Labour
    Internet-Mana Supporters-Party Vote Internet-Mana (IMP)

    Te Tai Tokerau Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote IMP-Hone Harawira

    Epsom Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote National-Paul Goldsmith

    East Coast Bays Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote National-Murray McCully

    Ohariu Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote Labour-Virginia Andersen

    Waiariki Constituency
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote IMP-Annette Sykes

    Te Tai Hauauru
    Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote Labour-Adrian Rurawhe

    If you don’t vote like this in these constituencies you are effectively voting for John Key.

  12. fambo 13

    Any one looking for a bit of early morning irony should check out the advert on the Taxpayers Union facebook page for there “bribe-o-meter” which they are promoting as a paid advertisement on facebook


  13. Rosie 14

    Hi Tracey. I replied to your query re Ohariu candidates meeting on Open Mike yesterday, much later in the day. Might have missed it in the 400+ comments!

  14. weka 15

    For those following the Hooton subplot, this from BLiP last night,

    It was interesting hearing Matthew Hooton’s wee anecdote about how Gerry Bronwlee came to his rescue when the Prime Minster’s Office was, allegedly, trying to get him booted off that PR-caper in Christchurch. It was as if Gerry Brownlee’s actions were spontaneous and based on the premise that it was against the law. Of course, those with a longer memory span than five minutes will remember that Matthew Hooton had given Gerry’s nephew Ed Brownlee a start in the corporate world. Ed Brownlee, of course, was the young nat who shooped up a porn image of a Labour activist and ghost-wrote the Whale Oil post which attacked John Minto and included a photo of Mr Minto’s home. That’s a few years ago now and Ed Brownlee has, almost but not quite, disappeared his internet footprint, but he was a junior within the advance guard of the unit which has morphed into the National Ltd™ “plausible deniability” attack machine.

    Uncle Gerry, I see, still dabbles from time to time, although at once removed these days. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Uncle Gerry was also feeding Whale Oil via Judith Collins, just as Anne Tolley has apparently been doing.

    Score draw?

  15. North 16

    TheGodKey is in the shit in the National Party.

    The construct halo has slipped and already in the backrooms it takes the shape of a diamante studded collar around the neck of ChihuahuaKey. All ready for the tightening.

    Post-election WinstonDog will tighten that collar, snap those diamantes off, and cough them to the MongrelDogs grumping in the backrooms. Said MongrelDogs displeased at ChihuahuaKey’s failure to take “All Breeds Champion”.

    Crufts Dog Show starting 20/9/14.

  16. “..Why Some of the World’s Greatest Thinkers and Artists Did Drugs..

    Neuroscientists have proven there is a positive link between creativity and pot..”



    • tricledrown 17.1


    • tricledrown 17.2

      Tully did drugs to he created Murder and Mayhem!
      99% of people with Mental illnesses have substance abuse addictions!
      Look at Matthew Hooton!
      Most of those creative geniuses died young Phil!
      You are good a creating excuses and Denials!

      • phillip ure 17.2.1

        i actually thought the neuroscientists proving the link was the point/interesting part of the story..

        ..and we are talking pot here..eh..?

        ..it’s hardly opium-laced absinthe..is it..?

  17. Sanctuary 18


    She hasn’t got a clue, has she? Such unshakeable arrogance, such unshakeable entitlement.

    • joe90 19.1

      Well said Michelle. The current mob think representation is something you read about in books.

      Parliament is not a congress of ambassadors from different and hostile interests; which interests each must maintain, as an agent and advocate, against other agents and advocates; but parliament is a deliberative assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole; where, not local purposes, not local prejudices, ought to guide, but the general good, resulting from the general reason of the whole.


      • Foreign Waka 19.1.1

        The problem is that one needs to be educated to understand this. Many would drop out by the second line. Unfortunate and sad.

  18. karol 20

    Reply to swordfish re boomers

    Firstly, show me your sources.

    various factors to consider:

    I was talking about the dominant culture back when boomers came of age.

    you can’t automatically read off how people vote now as indicative of the cultural values back then.

    All people are influenced by the dominant culture of the time, one way or another.

    real cultural change takes time. In the 70s we were moving towards a more inclusive, egalitarian and less materialistic world. The neocons fought back.

    it’s necessary to diffentiate between boomers in the various countries.

    Consumer culture took hold much earlier in the Us than in NZ or UK, and the US culture was generally more right wing.

    Since then NZ has become way more Americanised.

    Socialism was much stronger in the UK and Europe than in the US. NZ was somewhere in between.

    • Draco T Bastard 20.1

      real cultural change takes time. In the 70s we were moving towards a more inclusive, egalitarian and less materialistic world. The neocons fought back.


  19. sugar-warning/horror story:..

    pam’s boysenberry jam…500 gram jar..

    ..contains 325 grams of sugar..(!)

    ..can anyone top that..?

    ..that is over 11 ounces of fucken sugar..

    ..in a small jar of jam..

    ..that is a food-crime in a jar..

    • weka 21.1

      If you look at most homemade jam recipes the ratio of fruit to sugar is often that high (50/50 is not unusual. I don’t know how they measure the sugar in commercial jams). I don’t know why, because you can make jam with much less sugar and it will still preserve ok. People like things very sweet now though, and while it’s likely that Pams find sugar cheaper than fruit, it’s also possible that their sweeter jams sell better.

    • Lanthanide 21.2

      Jam has always been largely sugar. Sorry to burst your bubble.

      • weka 21.2.1

        doesn’t have to be though.

        • crocodill

          True, but generally the sugar is there to assist the “gelling” of the product. Pretty difficult to get what people know as “jam” i.e. sits in a jellied chunk on your fork before spreading, without high added sugar/sucrose content. The fructose of course is unavoidable. Otherwise you get a thin smeary liquid. Pectin, by itself, gelatine by itself, agar, seaweed or anything else vegetarian, can’t make up for a massive a shortfall in sugar that ensures the expected keeping qualities. I can’t believe I’m thinking about jam. lol. 50/50 tends to return best results: flavour/colour/health risk. It’s a bit like “low-tar/special filter” cigarettes. You know it’s bad, but damn it’s sometimes too good to pass up.

          • phillip ure

            barkers do a low-sugar jam..(it’s expensive. .and is only sold in top-end supermarkets..not @ pak & save..)

            ..and that tastes great..is not ‘thin/smeary’..

            ..so that sugar is so cheap as an ingredient..wd be why there is so much..

            • crocodill

              “so cheap …wd be why there is so much…”

              maybe “personal taste” too, which leads onto both facts and conspiracy theories. There is a point where theoretically putting too much sugar in wouldn’t be economic i.e. makes it taste worse/less appealing/costs more to market than not enough sugar. Have you ever noticed with sugar, that if consistently high doses are taken, the dose required to appreciate the same sweetness slowly increases? Then do a cold turkey and retry same proportions a few months later and the level of sweet is off-the-chart intolerable. IT BE BRAIN CONTROL lol

              65% is getting up there unnecessary. Even if unripe fruit used.

          • weka

            Not sure about that croc. I think you can still get a thick spreadable jam by upping the fruit content (depending on the fruit too) and using pectin. But yeah, if people are used to a certain consistency then that can be a hard habit to break.

            The keeping issue is about once the jar is opened. I know people that make low or no sugar jams and keep them in the fridge and use them up.

            • crocodill

              Yeah that is the problem. Sure we could all just mash up some fruit, but keeping times greatly reduced, even in refrigerator. And lets face it, you crawl out of bed and are then faced with last week’s fruit gremlins or a re-mash using munter fingers not yet awake that get caught in the vege peeler, and toast is now burning… or no fruit period… or delicious addictive sweet jam goodness from Pams. What do you do… what do you dooo!?

              • weka

                I don’t think you could pay me to eat Pams jam, sorry.

                Mashed banana and cinnamon and melted butter drool

                I’m more a savory breakfast person anyway.

        • Foreign Waka

          Well, there are 3 preservatives that do not require refrigeration. Sugar, Salt and Vinegar. These have been used for hundreds of years before refrigeration was possible. And you need a lot in either of those to make sure that foodstuffs stay edible from summer through winter.

    • tricledrown 21.3

      You would be a far better communicator if you weren’t clouded by smoke .
      Phil .
      Until you are sober for an extended period of time you won’t know!
      you have replaced a physically addictive drug with a Less Dangerous Mentally addictive drug!
      Partime Cannabis use doesn’t cause cannibis induced psyhcosis!
      You have been reliant on some sort of drug to get through the day for most of your life that suggests deep underlying Mental health issues which you are putting off dealing with!
      Typical Male attitude to Health concerns both physical and Mentally
      At least Matthew Hooton has been sobered up no more Lager because of Nicky Hager snake shedding skin!
      But Hooton is still part of ShonKeys Lying Circuusss!
      Phil you are trying to Defend Kim Dumbarses Shonkey Vendetta!
      so i see you in the same boat scull if you like unintentionally duped by Dim Dot Con!
      Cult you being clouded by Cannabis!
      Why not just be straight up and join legalize Cannabis Atearoa

      • phillip ure 21.3.1

        i hafta say..there..croci…given the staccatto/random nature of yr posts..

        ..you doing a ‘communicator’-critique on me is a tad rich..


        (‘physician heal thyself’..!..and all that..?..)

        ..and don’t get me started on the aotearoa legalise party..

        ,,that party you hear nothing from for three yrs..until it is time for some more election-time goodies/funding to spend..

        .as far as advocates for cannabis law-reform..it is beyond useless..!

        isn’t that just a longtime funding-scam run by a wellington lawyer..?

        ..nothing more..nothing less..

        • phillip ure

          perhaps the worst example of a useless single-issue party you could get..

          ..and equally worthy of contempt (on this issue) as those former ‘drug-warriors’..who shut their mouths.. and went on and peddled that legal-highs muck..

          .and my only hope is that the few idiots who vote for them..

          ..wouldn’t have voted anyway..were they/(he?) not there..

        • crocodill

          croci? are you of the misunderstanding I’m posting as tricledrown?

  20. greywarbler 22

    I was looking round on the net and saw this on the NZ Studies site. Should be interesting – keep in mind. I don’t know how one would get it by text or youtube – but someone here will know. There is some time yet.

    Should we worry about rising income and wealth inequality? Reflections on the Picketty phenomenon’ – Prof. Robert Wade, LSE – 14 November 2014, Birkbeck University of London
    November 14 @ 6:00 pm – 8:30 pm

    • greywarbler 22.1

      While on the subject of wealth disparity etc. here is part of a review of a book by Prof. James Belich. What the reviewer describes as pre-1914 conditions seem to be those being fostered now. Professor Eric Richards, Flinders University, South Australia.

      …Maynard Keynes recalled the immense scope of the laissez-faire world of the Pax Britannica at its zenith in the summer of 1914. ‘The inhabitant of London could order by telephone, sipping his tea … the various products of the whole earth, in such quantities as he might see fit, and reasonably expect their early delivery at his doorstep; he could … adventure his wealth in the natural resources and new enterprises of any quarter of the world, and share, without exertion or even trouble, in their prospective fruits and advantages’.(1) And so he continued: the wide world responded, almost frictionlessly, to the needs of London at the centre of a web of commerce and influence, without apparent limit.
      The rest of the review is equally interesting. If anything worthwhile comes from the potpouri of energy being spent on the WW1 commemorations, then perhaps a read of this review and Professor Belich’s book would be of the highest value.

      And the subject of the review – Replenishing the Earth. The Settler Revolution and the Rise of the Anglo-World, 1783-1939
      James Belich
      Oxford, Oxford University Press, 2009, ISBN: 978-0199297276; 592pp.; Price: £25.00

      And a quote from Professor Belich in a Listener article 10/Nov/2001 “There’s a NZ puritanism, a voluntary totalitarianism. There’s also a tendency for the world’s fad to become NZ’s fetish.”

      Perhaps that might, if true, give some indication of why we are in our present political plight? Don’t know. But it does seem to me that it all arises from having a gold rush mentality in this country, hop on the wealth bronco and ride it till it drops; integrity, practicality, the future, other citizens, pouf! Gold, frozen meat, venison, kiwifruit, wine, milk, Chinese business opportunities.

      • Murray Olsen 22.1.2

        “But it does seem to me that it all arises from having a gold rush mentality in this country, hop on the wealth bronco and ride it till it drops; integrity, practicality, the future, other citizens, pouf! Gold, frozen meat, venison, kiwifruit, wine, milk, Chinese business opportunities.”

        I hadn’t really thought about things in those terms before, but you make a lot of sense. We’re always looking for one big thing to save us. As dairy winds down, we’re wanting to sell our land. We’re greedily looking for oil, but thankfully not finding it. Now Dotcom is promising us salvation via the internet. We never seem to think of diversifying. For some reason we like to put all our eggs in one basket and panic when that wears a hole.

        There are many things we can do well, and the only party that seriously looks at using this capability is the Greens. National want to turn us into a speculators’ paradise, Labour don’t really seem to know what they want that’s different, and Internet Mana put far too much emphasis on our becoming IT millionaires. None of them really have a vision for the country that excites me.

  21. Bill 23

    Was JK using last nights debate to gain leverage over English on tax cut announcements? If, as he claimed, they had the announcement ready to go but pulled it because of Ashburton, then why couldn’t he have given precise figures last night? Presumably he had been fully briefed prior to the announcement being pulled? And why did he then say the announcement was a week away? Why not today?

    I’m picking there’s a bit of a stoush going on between JK and his finance minister and JK was using last night to get English into a corner.

    Anyway. I’m wondering if English will do the right thing and stand his ground.

    • Lanthanide 23.1

      “then why couldn’t he have given precise figures last night?”

      Why would he announce tax cut figures on a debate that is not being watched by most people?

    • adam 23.2

      Not like Key has stabbed English in the back before. Or anything…

    • Nic the NZer 23.3

      Anyway. I’m wondering if English will do the wrong thing and stand his ground.

      Maybe a small broad based tax cut is the best stimulus we will get from National but it is better than nothing. A narrow based tax cut will be less effective still but even that would provide a small stimulus.

  22. GRiM 24

    thinking out loud… not a hack, an intercept

  23. Adrian 25

    Bill, one of the answers may be in Brownlee’s manner last night, he looked like somebody had pissed on his fish and chips when Key was talking tax. All is not well on the bridge of the Natanic.

  24. ScottGN 26

    Another day and the Chief Ombudsman launches another investigation. This time it’s McCully in the gun for refusing to release documents relating to the Malaysian diplomat case.

  25. Clemgeopin 27

    I think Cunliffe was quite lacking in his debate last night. He was nowhere as good as in the first debate. He should avoid using the one liners that he has already used previously. He needs to be clearer and forceful about the Labour’s policies and needs new, more catchy lines,/points. Also it was disappointing that he was caught short a couple of times by Key’s direct questioning. That was Cunliffe’s chance to come out fighting and turn the tables. He failed to do this. Key and National are on the way out. It should be easy to put Labour views across easily.

    Key did better by default this time. In my opinion…

    In the first debate, Cunliffe=60, Key=40
    Last night’s debate, Cunliffe=45, Key=55

    I hope Cunliffe will put in a much better performance and win resoundingly in the third and final debate next wednesday. He HAS to!

    • adam 27.1

      Presidential type debates and focus, are anti-democratic in an MMP environment.

      • Clemgeopin 27.1.1

        But in a parliamentary system of government, the Prime Minister is still the head honcho with ultimate responsibility for the government.

    • just saying 27.2

      I dunno.

      Wouldn’t truth and sincerity be worth a go? Instead of all this crosby textor bollocks?

      Has Labour’s PR people ever considered that those right-wing tactics may only ever benefit the right-wing?

  26. disturbed 28

    Yes Key fucked Brownlee over there, as brownlee is in the hot seat Cunliffe comes forward with a super fix for all insurance claims Blah Blah, and key then was asked if he would match Labour offer and key said nah we have done enough.?

    Any way Key already lied before that by claiming during the debate around increasing the minimum wage that US left wing Obama are not increasing their Minimum.

    Another lie for you to report MSM Ha Ha.

    John Key lied again during CHCH leaders debate saying it was the left wing Obama Government that was responsible for keeping the minimum US wage at $7.25 per hr. This is a lie, it is the right wing that are stalling an Obama plan to raise it to $10.10.

    “Obama pushed Congress to raise the federal minimum wage to $10.10 but has failed to win the backing of the Republican-controlled House of Representatives. The Democrat-controlled Senate failed last week to muster 60 votes to avoid a filibuster on the issue”

  27. David H 29

    Whale oil is really Shrimp oil according to KDC


  28. Pascals bookie 30

    Latest whaledump is the Carrick Graham Katherine Rich corporate hits angle. Confirms WO posts Graham’s words under his name.

      • weka 30.2.1

        what’s the torque link? I can’t get it to open.

        • joe90

          An analysis of whaledumps motives and a guess at the end game.

          Even a cursory analysis of the events and timeline described in Nicky Hager’s book “Dirty Politics” indicates that the cyber-attack on Cameron Slater was most likely part of a carefully planned and executed campaign rather than an opportunist assault. For the purpose of brevity, I’ll refer to this campaign as Operation Whaledump (taken from the self-identified hacker’s Twitter feed). In terms of how this is playing out right now, it is obvious that Whaledump is ‘inside the OODA loop’ (see my earlier post about OODA loops) of his or her targets and retains the initiative through daily releases of fresh information. The target elements are forced to respond to events and somewhat passively maintain the mantra of illegality and ‘left wing smear campaign’.


          It is more likely that the strategic objectives relate to the dynamic of how politicians, their parties and staff, mainstream and social media all interact. For instance, this operation will have the effect of making mainstream media (MSM) journalists very shy of quoting social media sources without checking and verifying facts. This is a good thing given we’ve known prior to this that political and lobbyist messages can be planted on a blog, then quoted under parliamentary privilege by the same person who arranged for it to be blogged about and the speech subsequently reported by MSM.

          It opens for me in firefox but failing that I’d recommend searching the address and using the google referral/cache.

        • joe90

          Here’s the text only cache of part one. No luck so far with part two.

          • weka

            Thanks, I got that one too, but still can’t get either of my browsers or the ph to open the page direct.

            edit: ah, the phone finally loaded the front page.

      • karol 30.2.2

        Thanks and very interesting.

        However, I think the writer of the blog overestimates the extent of the planning, by including the publication of Dirty Politics in the planning. I understand from comments by Hager, that he learned of the hacked material and approached the hacker. It took time for Hager to convince the hacker to pass over material he could use in the book. hager also said the timing of the publication had to do with how quickly he could put the publication together.

        Hager also said, the hacker’s motive wasn’t political. The hacking was done because Slater was a bastard and a prick. It seems as important to the hacker to expose the commercial hits by Rich et al, as much as the political machinations.

      • joe90 30.2.3

        Part three.


        edit: # karol – cracking yarn though

  29. North 31

    Get this from the Herald – ‘normalisation’ of dirty politics, there being those apparently still prepared to pay the shameless, amoral, ‘master of the universe’ types who practised it.


    That’s OK then. Relaxed. Except for the fact they all look like bloody gargoyles.

  30. weka 32

    Climate change debate tonight, 6pm I think.

    Climate Voter is hosting a live debate between the major political parties on 3rd September and we want everyone who cares about this important issue to be part of it. The debate will be hosted by TV3’s Samantha Hayes and the confirmed politicians are National’s Tim Groser, Minister for Climate Issues, Labour deputy leader David Parker, Green co-leader Russel Norman, New Zealand First deputy leader Tracey Martin and Internet-mana Candidate John Minto.

    livestreamed at http://www.climatevoter.org.nz/debate

    • Puckish Rogue 33.1

      Yeah shame about Labour dropping though, still puts Labour/Greens (41%) behind National (45%). That dirty politics spin isn’t working quite as well as the left hoped for eh

    • Clemgeopin 33.2

      Very disappointing news:

      Labour down 1.5% to 26% while Greens up 4.5% to 16%

      I would have liked Labour to have risen to 30 % plus. Bad things can happen sooner or later if a parasite chokes the tree.

      • Puckish Rogue 33.2.1

        Its good news, it shows the majority of kiwis don’t care for the antics of Nicky Hager and the IMP but do appreciate the fine stewardship of John Key

        • cardassian

          Yeah only down 8% from the Roy Morgan last election.
          Remind me what it’ll look like on voting day if National drops 8%.

        • Foreign Waka

          Or to say it with words right out of the mouth of Mr Key: Whatever, whatever, whatever.

  31. Great poll for the greens, not good for labour and a shocker for mip.
    The 3% gap between L/G left and the nats is still eminently closeable, and there’s still the winston will he won’t he wildcard to ponder.

    Got to be a good for labour next week if they’ve a realistic chance of getting 30% + come election day.
    Mmp environment or not, and greens grabbing left and right ‘market share’ aside, those are horrible numbers for labour. Still, could be worse, could be DS or SJ at the helm.

  32. Bearded Git 35

    Dita De Boni on fire re Dirty Politics on The Panel a few minutes ago.

    Tory-Mora had to move on to shut her up. Well worth a listen when it’s up on RNZ..

    • Morrissey 35.1

      I agree with you. Dita Di Boni was simply brilliant this afternoon. She spoke clearly and refused to be shut down by the pomposity and nastiness of John Bishop or the false jollity of host Jim Mora.

      After the 4:30 news, far from being intimidated by Mora and Bishop, she returned to the topic of dirty politics, and contested Bishop’s attempts to say that both the left and the right were equally bad. He was reduced to a whiny expression of grudging agreement.

      Then, to make it an utterly miserable experience for John Bishop, she refuted him a third time when he embarked on an ill advised attempt to defend the loathsome food industry lobbyist (and former National MP) Katherine Rich, who has been outed for instigating attacks on academics and public health programmes. Dita Di Boni refused to let Bishop derail the conversation, to his evident consternation.

      I’ll write up a transcript of this magnificent edition of a programme which has been mostly execrable.

      • bearded git 35.1.1

        Look forward to that morrissey

      • drum 35.1.2

        +1000 Thought Dita showed a lot of courage refusing to be intimidated by the pompous pair.

      • Puddleglum 35.1.3

        Who on earth is John Bishop? I’ve never heard of him.

        Given the bit of ‘discussion’ I heard this evening (about the misnamed Food and Grocery Council – sounds like an association of corner dairies but is far from that) my only knowledge of him is that he struggles to think logically and seems to have a loose relationship with verifiable facts.

      • Paul 35.1.4

        Would love to see your transcript. This was a wonderful change to the normal Tory bilge on the Panel.

    • weka 35.2

      Audio still not up on RNZ. Does it normally take that long in the afternoons?

    • Saarbo 35.3

      Agree, John Bishop I think epitomises the National voter, they refuse to read #dirty poltics and then as Dita De Boni pointed out, make the cocked up conclusion (“false equivalency”)that because the hacker “stole” the information then the “left” are just as bad as the “right” . Dita De Boni was great.

  33. halfcrown 36

    Roy Morgan states
    “If a National Election were held now the latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll shows that the result would be too close to call with NZ First likely to choose New Zealand’s next Government.”

    Peters will go with National that’s why he has to be treated like a hostile witness.
    Remember he was a National Party MP once and a Leopard never changes it’s spots.


    • Foreign Waka 36.1

      You might want to tell this all the diehard pensioners who like the “lovely” Winston.

  34. i am gobsmacked by how much of a rightwinger mora is..

    • ianmac 37.1

      phillip: Jim did his best to assist that Bishop bigot in his effort to undermine the true significance of the corruption exposed by Nicky and others. Dita writes great stuff on the Herald and should be commended for her valiant efforts to restore balance tonight.
      And if Bishop lies one more time that he “takes Dita’s point” then continues with his Right wing diatribe I shall fly to Auckland and growl fiercely at him!

      • phillip ure 37.1.1

        behind those soothing tones..there lurks a hard-right neo-lib..

        ..and when looking out for it..it sticks out like dogs’ balls..

        ..yesterday he said four times(!) how the shooter ‘also had presbyterian services support’..

        ..thus painting a picture of them at his shoulder..as it were..

        ..whereas they actually just gave him accomodation for four nites..

        ..that’s it..!

        ..that was the extent of that support..

        ..yet mora repeated that spin/lie..four fucken times..

  35. Ad 38

    Labour-Greens v National shows its possible to do the historic first and deny National a third term.

    It’s all down to voter mobilisation people.
    The more doors you knock, the greater the progressive coalitions’ chances.

    Call your family, friends, church members, sports teams, and we can win this.

  36. blue leopard 39

    This Labour policy summary page is well worth reading – it addresses ways they intend to protect and enhance our democracy

    ….including bringing more civics into the school curriculum 🙂 🙂 😉


    Good one Labour!!!

  37. ianmac 40

    Hey! I know that the Climate Change Debate is online but also John Campbell Live TV3 is having a Round Table discussion with all the heads of the minor parties. 7-8pm tonight.
    So far gracious and each getting a chance to say their piece – so far! Very different to the Leaders Debate. Worth a look.

    • ianmac 40.1

      And given the problems of having 7+ speakers it is a fascinating approach – very interesting.

      • ianmac 40.1.1

        Ooops onto online @TV3 7:30-8

        • phillip ure

          does anyone have the link..?

          i can’t fucken find it..

        • ScottGN

          I’ve lost the livestream from TV3. Switched to Radiolive but it’s running about 10 minutes behind.

          • phillip ure

            do you have the link within radiolive..?

            ..why are these websites such piles of shit..?

            • ScottGN

              On radiolive it’s audio streamed on the Hay/Fagan show.

            • ScottGN

              I’ve got the livestream back. Also I never thought I’d say this but Te Ururoa Flavell is doing a pretty good job here. The dial straight out hates Jamie Whyte and Colin Craig.

              • Disraeli Gladstone

                Flavell is very well-spoken. I think the Maori Party has been unfairly demonised for what is a pretty decent strategy (very rarely has the Maori Party vote been relied on by National to pass legislation in comparison to how much hate they get).

                In terms of the optimal outcome for Maori:

                – a left-wing party pushing left-wing values that improve the lives of Maori (Mana minus Internet Party)
                – a Maori party that sits at the table and gives Maori a voice even under right-wing governments (Maori Party)

                is pretty much ideal. I hope the Maori Party can take a couple of seats and remain alive. It would be a shame to lose an important Maori voice.

  38. Foreign Waka 41

    Just watching Mike Hosking, what a advertisement for the National Party with some spin. Is this not against Broadcast Standards? It is so transparent that an apolitical person can guess this.

  39. Hanswurst 42

    Incredibly clumsy from Bill English this morning:

    English said. “In fact, Labour actually says: ‘We will ensure trusts are not used as a means of avoiding a CGT’. David Cunliffe cannot have it both ways.”

    No Mr. English. You can’t have it both ways. Either you hold people to the letter of what they say, or you apply your own interpretation. Seeing as a family home is per se exempt from a capital gains tax, putting it in a family trust cannot be seen as a means of avoiding paying that tax (which the property would be exempt from anyway), and that sentence cannot therefore support your assertion that capital gains tax would apply to such properties under the policy as released.

    Now, if only that could be reduced to a simple statement and thrown in his rorting, lying face.

  40. Hanswurst 43

    Regarding Key’s reference to an advert that will purportedly be appearing in The Press in the coming weeks, is it not possible that his comments themselves would turn it into an election advertisement, even if that would not have been the case previously? After all, if the advert appears to support very public claims he made in support of his government’s handling of the rebuild, surely that would encourage people to vote for him.

    In that case, The Press, being aware as it is now (Editor Ms Norris spoke about it on RNZ today) of the political issues surrounding the advert, would be making a political decision to support Key’s statements by pressing ahead with the publication, and would itself (rather than those who drew up the ad in the first place) be responsible for encouraging people to vote National.

    … or is that the sort of sophistry that is impossible to employ for legal purposes?

    I still think The Press should be careful, though, since publishing the ad could be perceived as a political act; unfortunately, should it choose not to publish on that basis, then Key would be open to accusations of carelessly and recklessly influencing the press in the process of pursuing his own political gain…

  41. anker 44

    Just got back from a Wellington Central meet the candidates………….

    Grant R was great. As was the Green candidate.

    The NZ first candidate spoke out about dirty politics and the need for a Royal Commission. It was great it came from a candidate. If he is anything to go by, NZ first will not be going into a coalition with National (virtually said so)……………..

    There was very little support for National in the room. If this one meeting is anything to go by, I think we are going to have a change of government.

  42. Clemgeopin 45

    Back Benches, PRIME TV
    Wednesday 10:40PM
    With leaked emails making headlines, tonight’s panel debate a public figure’s entitlement to the same privacy rights as the average Kiwi. Plus, how would your chosen party fund a tax cut? PGR

  43. Inky 46

    Something smells about these latest two polls today. After everything — everything! — that has gone on in the past couple of weeks, Key’s preferred choice as PM has gone up in one of them by more than 3 per cent.

    After all the dodgy stuff coming out, his hopeless showing in the first debate, the inquiries being launched, Collins’ demise, his ducking and diving like a handcuffed man trapped in a corner against Mike Tyson when seriously questioned … instead of putting just a teeny bit of doubt in any of the minds of those polled it persuaded 3.7 per cent of them that it’s actually been an amazingly good few weeks for him?

    Not possible, not in this lifetime. The thing’s rigged better than any America’s Cup yacht Russell Coutts ever sailed.

    • Rich 46.1

      It’s been rigged for a long time Inky.

    • Clemgeopin 46.2

      I have the same feeling about these two polls. Something does not ring true.

      Hopefully Sept 20 will prove these polls as being stupid, wrong and far out.

  44. A VOTER 47

    We really do need a legal entity to oversea our govt that is unbiased and voted for by the public and who cannot be lobbied or manipulated by party politics because they will be subject to full disclosure to the public in their actions
    Something Im sure Sir Geoffrey Palmer would have no trouble in drafting
    Also crimminal penalties for parliementarians who have been proven to have wasted the country’s time money and resources in their actions as ministers of the crown and associates of the aforesaid
    We mite get our pubic worth out them then which is more than we are getting now

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