Open Mike 03/11/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 3rd, 2016 - 133 comments
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133 comments on “Open Mike 03/11/2016”

  1. Paul 1

    Chief EPA scientist Jacqueline Rowarth refuses to acknowledge the science around nitrate pollution in the Waikato River, which is expected since she works on behalf of big dairy. Great to see the actual scientists calling her out.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/nz-freshwater-expert-slams-chief-scientists-numbers-waikato-rivers-water-quality-outdated?autoPlay=5193393971001

    • Paul 1.1

      And Rachel Stewart notes.

      Doug Edmeades (Prof. Rowarth’s partner in EPA crime) is an ‘out’ climate change denier. Surprise, surprise.

      https://twitter.com/RFStew/status/793733453854355457

    • Morrissey 1.2

      Jacqueline Rowarth is a disgrace and an embarrassment. She, along with Willem De Lange of the Earth Science department, and Ron Smith and Dov Bing of the Politics Dept., is largely responsible for Waikato University not being taken seriously as an academic institution.

      Not to forget the fact that the Waikato School of Management endowed a chair after Saatchi boss Kevin Roberts.

      • Cinny 1.2.1

        a paid up patsy looking after her own dairy interests

        • Morrissey 1.2.1.1

          If you have a taste for black comedy, you should check out her social commentary….

          Open mike 23/09/2014

          • Cinny 1.2.1.1.1

            thanking you 🙂 dang so she thinks poverty is a state of mind, dang dang dang.

          • Richard Rawshark 1.2.1.1.2

            Best place to find out about these people is the NZ business register.

            why does MPI and Treasury own, 50/50 and that Jaquline sara Rowarth has either been a director of or currently is .

            NEW ZEALAND FAST FORWARD LIMITED (2155578) Removed

            THE NEW ZEALAND INSTITUTE FOR PLANT AND FOOD RESEARCH LIMITED (547965) Registered

            and this one she was part of ..

            HONICK PROPERTIES LIMITED (1628700) Registered

      • mauī 1.2.2

        She’s a complete joke, looking to do as much damage as possible to our already fragile environmental record.

    • Cinny 1.3

      Morena Paul, dang what a link, thanks for posting.

      400 Scientists challenged her wild claim of a clean Waikato River.

      Turns out she is also a professor of economics.. go figure

      “Rowarth said she expected her appointment to an organisation centred on environmental protection would raise eyebrows among the environmental lobby, given her role as an agricultural commentator and her dairy farming interests in Waikato.”

      • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1

        Turns out she is also a professor of economics.. go figure

        It’s amazing how many ‘scientists’ who deny climate change and pretty much any other science that proves them wrong happen to be economists. They seem to think that being an economist makes them experts on everything.

        Meanwhile, the economic hypothesis that they spread is destroying the environment.

    • s y d 1.4

      here is the scientific rebuttal….

      http://sciblogs.co.nz/guestwork/2016/11/01/waikato-river-cleanest/

      for those who can’t be bothered, it’s basically saying Rowarth & Edmeades are, like the Waikato River, full of shit.

  2. Jenny 2

    Return to Aleppo

    • Morrissey 2.1

      Jenny, you have been roundly criticized for posting this propaganda before. Perhaps your energy would be better spent in lobbying our government to stop supporting the “rebels”, i.e, Al Qaeda.

      • Jenny 2.1.1

        “McNaught said she was reporting from Al Bab. Al Bab is north of Aleppo and, according to google search results,, an ISIS stronghold.”
        Bill

        Open Mike 01/11/2016

        That’s all right then.

        Just label them all terrorists and even genocide becomes respectable.

      • Peter Swift 2.1.2

        Since when has being roundly condemned ever stopped you from wasting your energy and posting hackneyed, partisan or even pro alleged rapist Assange pieces?
        Maybe you’re the one who needs to focus on how time could be better spent.

        • Morrissey 2.1.2.1

          You’re out of your depth, my friend. You have nothing substantial or even diverting to offer. Why are you here again?

          • Peter Swift 2.1.2.1.1

            You’re wildly overestimating the deepness of your intelectual puddle.

            [You know the rules. If you want to be clever and rude, make a political point as well (but don’t use this as an excuse to dress up your abuse in politics). Given I’ve already made several comments on this today, I think you can now take this as a warning – weka]

    • reason 2.2

      “Imagine two cities.

      Both are under siege by the forces of the government of that country. Both cities are occupied by fanatics, who commit terrible atrocities, such as beheading people.

      But there is a vital difference. In one siege, the government soldiers are described as liberators by Western reporters embedded with them, who enthusiastically report their battles and air strikes. There are front page pictures of these heroic soldiers giving a V-sign for victory. There is scant mention of civilian casualties.

      In the second city – in another country nearby – almost exactly the same is happening. Government forces are laying siege to a city controlled by the same breed of fanatics.

      The difference is that these fanatics are supported, supplied and armed by “us” – by the United States and Britain. They even have a media centre that is funded by Britain and America.

      Another difference is that the government soldiers laying siege to this city are the bad guys, condemned for assaulting and bombing the city – which is exactly what the good soldiers do in the first city.

      Confusing? Not really. Such is the basic double standard that is the essence of propaganda. I am referring, of course, to the current siege of the city of Mosul by the government forces of Iraq, who are backed by the United States and Britain and to the siege of Aleppo by the government forces of Syria, backed by Russia. One is good; the other is bad.

      What is seldom reported is that both cities would not be occupied by fanatics and ravaged by war if Britain and the United States had not invaded Iraq in 2003. That criminal enterprise was launched on lies strikingly similar to the propaganda that now distorts our understanding of the civil war in Syria.

      Without this drumbeat of propaganda dressed up as news, the monstrous ISIS and Al-Qaida and al-Nusra and the rest of the jihadist gang might not exist, and the people of Syria might not be fighting for their lives today.”
      http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/28/inside-the-invisible-government-war-propaganda-clinton-trump/

    • Morrissey 3.1

      I see you have given up even trying to coherently argue your case, Jenny. Simply posting more hardline propaganda is not an intelligent response.

      • Jenny 3.1.1

        Al Jezeera and CNN too hardline for you Morrisey?

        Maybe we need to see something from the people of Aleppo

        Child soldiers in Aleppo?

        Child soldiers of Aleppo

        • Morrissey 3.1.1.1

          If you had even the slightest clue, Jenny, you would realize that CNN and Al Jazeera are indeed hardline. They are biased almost totally in favour of the U.S. regime’s support of the “rebels”, who are, as everybody except you seems to understand, are actually Al Qaeda. As I’ve pointed out before, you do not know enough.

          • Psycho Milt 3.1.1.1.1

            As I’ve pointed out before, you do not know enough.

            None of us do. However, you in particular might want to Google “Dunning-Kruger Effect.”

            • Morrissey 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Psycho Milt, you’re really not equipped to engage in a battle of wits. Why don’t you do something more in line with your talent—like giving Jenny a hand packing suicide vests for your friends in Al Nusra?

              • Peter Swift

                “Why don’t you do something more in line with your talent—like giving Jenny a hand packing suicide vests for your friends in Al Nusra”

                Can you provide any evidence to support that Jenny does such a thing?

                Unless you can do so, you should immediately withdraw and apologise.
                Your m on f bullying is getting out of control.

                • Morrissey

                  Moderators, is this witless troll to be allowed to say anything at all without consequence?

                  • weka

                    Only to the same extent that your or I are allowed to say something Morrissey. See I find your comment about hand packing suicide vests to easily be the most offensive thing in this subthread, and it probably does cross the line from political debate to gratuitous offence, but what I am really looking for is if people have abandoned debate and are merely trying to escalate aggression. Because that’s what destroys the community’s ability to discuss politics and make arguments.

                    I know you don’t like Peter Swift’s comments, but that alone isn’t a good reason to call on the moderators. If you want to make a case for how he is breaking the site rules, go for it (I don’t see it myself).

                    • Morrissey

                      Fair enough, weka. Thanks for that. And I’m sorry about that crack aimed at Jenny; I must apologize to her next time we’re on line together.

                    • weka

                      All good Morrissey. I think it is useful in general for people to comment on what is happening in threads because moderators don’t see everything and it’s easy to miss context. best to make a case though.

          • save nz 3.1.1.1.2

            The sad thing about the Syrian war is that there are no ‘goodies and baddies’ just ‘baddies and baddies’. As such most of the innocent people there seem to be trying their best to get the hell out of the country as best they can and try to get to Europe.

            If Europe don’t like that, they need to actually do something for peace not just sit back as the social instability starts unstablising them. Look at the middle east and Israel – disaster! Iraq – disaster! Afghanistan – disaster. Making it worse with Syria, worst disaster!

            They need to look at what worked with Northern Ireland. Political peaceful solution and negotiating with both parties. There is no one who can win this war.

        • reason 3.1.1.2

          “What is seldom reported is that both cities would not be occupied by fanatics and ravaged by war if Britain and the United States had not invaded Iraq in 2003. That criminal enterprise was launched on lies strikingly similar to the propaganda that now distorts our understanding of the civil war in Syria.

          Without this drumbeat of propaganda dressed up as news, the monstrous ISIS and Al-Qaida and al-Nusra and the rest of the jihadist gang might not exist, and the people of Syria might not be fighting for their lives today.”

          • Psycho Milt 3.1.1.2.1

            What is seldom reported is that both cities would not be occupied by fanatics and ravaged by war if Britain and the United States had not invaded Iraq in 2003.

            Handy tip: when there’s an emergency and urgent action is required, it’s not the best time for establishing who’s to blame for this emergency. Yes, this wouldn’t be happening if the loons running the US in 2003 hadn’t invaded Iraq – however, they did invade Iraq and wishing it weren’t so doesn’t affect the situation.

            Anti-American activists might like to imagine the people of Syria and Iraq would be living happy lives right now if not for the evil western democracies, but that’s all it is – imagining stuff. Even without the invasion of Iraq, there were competing interests in the region that cause conflict. This particular shitpile wouldn’t exist without the US invasion of Iraq, but some other shitpile would. Speculating about whether the real, actually-existing shitpile is bigger and smellier than the hypothetical alternative one would have been is pointless.

          • Stuart Munro 3.1.1.2.2

            You lump ISIS, Al Qaida and Al Nusra all together as if they were the same. But they are not. If you cannot tell them apart then you are certainly not equipped to discuss the moral equivalence or otherwise of Aleppo and Mosul.

            For example, there is a substantial body of evidence of a genocide of Yazidi people by ISIS. Have Al Nusra done such things? It may be that they exaggerate their jihadist credentials for some reason – or it may be that Assad’s forces exaggerate them, to justify the bombing of civilian positions in Aleppo.

            To be credible you would have had to demonstrate that you had engaged critically with such possibilities. It seems that you have not.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.2.2.1

              He replied that if journalists had done their job, “there is a very, very good chance we would not have gone to war in Iraq”.

              It was a shocking statement, and one supported by other famous journalists to whom I put the same question — Dan Rather of CBS, David Rose of the Observer and journalists and producers in the BBC, who wished to remain anonymous.

              In other words, had journalists done their job, had they challenged and investigated the propaganda instead of amplifying it, hundreds of thousands of men, women and children would be alive today, and there would be no ISIS and no siege of Aleppo or Mosul.

              Think about that for a second.

              If the journalists had done their job and reported accurately and the people of those countries had then done their job and held their politicians in check then none of this would be happening.

              In a democracy, everyone is responsible for the actions of their government.

  3. Cinny 4

    In local news … Successfully entering the housing market can be a gamble at best and is often luck of the draw, and Jester House Cafe’s Steve RIchards 52-day evolving House of Cards exhibition explores just that. Pictured with the exhibition is Labour MP for West Coast/Tasman Damien O’Connor.

    Lololz I wonder why they didn’t invite List MP Maureen Pugh or Nelson MP Nick Smith to pose with Steves exhibit? LMAO.

    Great photo of a great MP with a fantastic work of art. Awesome job Steve.

  4. Morrissey 5

    Good news for Bernard Manning fans
    TV1 Breakfast, Thursday 3 November, 7:18 a.m.

    MELISSA STOKES: And finally, Jerry Seinfeld is coming to New Zealand! Yadda yadda yadda! If you’re a Seinfeld fan you’ll get that!

    HILLARY BARRY: [forced] He he he!

    DANIEL FAITAUA: [dutiful] Ha ha ha!

    ELAINE: You know what? That’s discriminatory. That is unfair. Why should these women have all the advantages? It’s not enough they get all the attention from men, they have to get all the waitress jobs, too?

    JERRY: Hey that’s life. Good-looking men have the same advantages. You don’t see any handsome homeless.

    Gales of canned laughter….

    http://www.seinology.com/scripts/script-63.shtml

  5. Incognito 6

    A good clear blog about NZ research on cancer mortality inequalities in NZ: Why are some preventable cancer deaths in Māori and Pacific peoples increasing?.

    http://sciblogs.co.nz/public-health-expert/2016/10/31/preventable-cancer-deaths-maori-pacific/ [link is not working for some reason because the system is adding an “s” to http]

    Last paragraph quoted here verbatim:

    Ethnic inequalities in cancer are preventable and trends in these inequalities are largely driven by the social determinants of health, flowing through to risk factors such as tobacco, obesity and infections. In this blog we have focused on just three of the largest modifiable risk factor mediators of ethnic inequalities in health. If NZ policy-makers are concerned about reducing the impact of cancer and health inequalities then they will need to take stronger measures to address disparities in obesity, tobacco use and H. pylori infection. A robust and resilient approach must also address the underlying social determinants such as child poverty, racism and culturally inappropriate services, housing affordability and income disparities.

    I don’t think this has been picked up (yet) by MSM …

    • Cinny 6.1

      Poor people are sick more often, rich people profit from sickness and it’s vile

      But not just any rich person, I’m talking about the top 1% of the top 1%, the people whom play god with others lives.

  6. reason 7

    Some one call Crimestoppers ………. Lord ashcroft needs to be locked up.

    The ‘good’ lords a fraud ……… and quite probably a mentor for john key…..

    Lord Ashcroft who has been described as a ‘philanthropist businessman’ by New Zealand media is actually a very very dodgy Billionaire tax haven builder ….. facilitating financial crimes …. and getting rich at the expense of the poor.

    He has quite the rap sheet ….

    “the Royal Bank of Canada, which – despite its name – had extensive operations around the Caribbean. In 1987, the branch was bought by Michael Ashcroft,”

    “In 1990, in part after advice from Ashcroft, Belize passed laws creating an offshore financial center” (offshore financial center = tax haven )

    “Belize Corporate Services, a non-bank entity owned by Ashcroft’s holding company, has advertised the sale of “Belize Ready Made Companies” as well as “virtual office” services,”
    http://www.taxjustice.net/2015/10/05/belize-and-the-curious-tale-of-the-british-lord/

    “perhaps the founder of the Crimestoppers charity ought to have been a little more curious about why customers were using bearer shares, mail holding accounts, nominee directors and all the other accoutrements of offshore tax crime.”

    His bank has been accused of directly stealing $10 million meant for social housing ….
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jun/16/ashcroft-bank-belize-privy-council-row
    “A bank with close links to Lord Ashcroft will be accused in a British courtroom of keeping $10m destined for social housing in a poor central American country,”

    “She accused Ashcroft of being the guiding hand behind the bank’s dispute with the government”….. “There is no doubt that he is a controlling hand behind the bank. We will continue to argue the money belongs to the Belizean people,” she told the Guardian.”

    And although a Billionaire making a move on 10million for poor people is bad enough …. Its on a PPP deal ( think Serco public/privatre stitch up type contract and thats a PPP), that the serious looting against ordinary people occurs …..

    “Under the terms of the agreement, the islanders pay about $22m a year for the next 25 years – almost $600m – for the $124m invested by a Canadian health company and its financial backers who awarded the $65m hospitals construction contract ….”
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/mar/31/lord-ashcroft-link-caribbean-firm

    He is presently battling for control of his dirty money owners registry ….

    “Lord Ashcroft, the billionaire Tory party donor, has been drawn into a bitter row with the government of Belize over the control of its offshore register, which has been responsible for the formation of more than 100,000 companies in the tax haven.”

    “But the row has also raised questions about how much money Ashcroft’s business interests have made from helping develop Belize as a tax haven.”

    And In a bit of poetic justice his bent bank seems to be biting its bent customers as a run on funds is now taking place … customers like ” the Belizean arm of Mossack Fonseca”…..
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/02/lord-ashcrofts-belize-bank-hit-wave-withdrawals-bbi

    Now knowing the type of ‘expertise’ Ashcroft has ……….. it all casts a different light over Keys meetings with him…. http://www.newshub.co.nz/general/pm-meets-with-rightwing-billionaire-lord-ashcroft-2011102618

    Thick as thieves ??? …… teaching the ropes ???

    “The rich, via lobbyists and Byzantine tax arrangements, actively work to stop redistribution. Inequality is not inevitable, it’s engineered. “

    • Richard Rawshark 7.1

      Awesome reason, but how do we make more people aware of what’s going on.

      • Bob 7.1.1

        First, you find out what is going on…

        It’s jumping to long shot conspiracy theories, based on two people having met 5 years ago, that ruins any chance of anyone that hasn’t made up their own mind listening to you.

      • reason 7.1.2

        Thanks for the compliment RR …….. The information on Ashcroft is all over the web …. but our nz media and its news blackouts on information showing key in a bad light is something that Labour and the rest of the opposition will have to overcome.

        That and the fact National will go into the election with up to three times the budget for advertising..

        But if I were Labour ( or Nz first or the greens ) I would commission a respectable independent economist like Oram to come up with an approximate estimate of what Corporate tax cheats like Apple are costing NZ….. As the Aussies estimate it is costing them around $ 50 Billion…. then I suspect around $10 Billion would be Nzs stolen figure.

        So I would pledge to actually legislate against and stop their rorting ….. with the extra $10 billion revenue I’d allocate an extra $4 Billion to education per year …. with the promise to remove ‘voluntary fees’ ….that see kids miss out on trips and sport if their parents are poor…

        I’d allocate $4 Billion to health per year with waiting lists and getting patients the surgery and treatments they need being a priority.

        And I’d allocate $2 Billion extra per year for farmers and conservation ….. Purchase barrier strips of land separating farmers stock from water ways ….. employ people to plant out these strips and try to heal the environment.

        I’d try to engage the schools and teachers in publicizing the education windfall NZ would receive if we stopped corporate tax cheats

        Reducing waiting lists and more surgery targets older people.

        Conservation is good ….. and feels good 🙂

        The Nats are very weak and exposed on tax haven building and corruption…. As these hurt ordinary honest people

        Just don’t expect help from our media ….as they have been providing cover for the cheats.

        I’d suggest research ….. and practice what you’ve learned against our trolls …

        Remember …..When teflon fails… every bit of shit sticks to it …..

  7. Richard Rawshark 8

    Can anyone enlighten me as to why the government of NZ owns private companies?

    Why would NicK Smith and Bill English own these two

    TĀMAKI REGENERATION LIMITED (5840214) Registered

    TĀMAKI REDEVELOPMENT COMPANY LIMITED (3937662) Registered and Auckland council.

    Is this used to buy land? If so doesn’t the government just buy it, what purpose does having a company serve the government?

    • DoublePlusGood 8.1

      It’s common for relevant government ministers to be listed as directors of state owned enterprises.

      • Richard Rawshark 8.1.1

        Isn’t this like that perfect way to be giving tax payer money to your mates in directors fee’s.?

        IF the government can form companies willy nilly and pay directors that leaves it open to huge mates backhanders..

        NEW ZEALAND FAST FORWARD LIMITED (2155578)

        lord knows what the above does for nz or the lists of directors and past directors of some of these unknown entities is huge.

        this is not very transparent.

        • tc 8.1.1.1

          National dont have to bother about covering up their dodgy deals as they have the msm onside feeding nz celebrity/rugby/property/dog whistles whilst they continue transferring equity and revenue from public to private mates.

          Kiwibank being their latest

          • save nz 8.1.1.1.1

            @TC the Kiwibank windfall makes government books look much better than they actually are. Like Dick Smith, when accounting turned $100 million into $500 million, after a bit it all collapses and the company is bankrupted.

        • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1.2

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-owned_enterprises_of_New_Zealand

          “Two Ministers of the Crown act as the shareholding ministers in the company. In the case of SOEs these are usually the Minister of State Owned Enterprises (see article for list) and the Minister responsible for the particular company.”

        • BM 8.1.1.3

          The power of google

          New Zealand Fast Forward is a government-industry investment collaboration that responds to emerging threats and opportunities facing New Zealand’s largest sector.
          Pastoral and food industries

          https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/all/files/Fast%20Forward%20overview.pdf

          • save nz 8.1.1.3.1

            @BM – a) 9 years too late.
            b) how much investment on innovation are National committing to this year and next and too whom, paper pushers and cronies?
            c) tired of ‘big’ amounts over 10 -15 years being touted by the Natz. Funny all the so called investment comes in post election…. sometimes decades in the future. Tired of that scam.
            d) Where are all the bridges promised in Northland – I’m sure we would all like to see them.

          • save nz 8.1.1.3.2

            @BM an extract..

            “We have a long history of using our natural resources to earn our way in the world. But continuing to produce the same products in the same ways will put pressure on our natural resources and can damage our environment.”

            No shit sherlock. They take 9 years to come to this conclusion????

          • Richard Rawshark 8.1.1.3.3

            Exactly my point BM, it’s made up to make people rich.

    • BM 9.1

      Not really, all depends on where the hydrogen comes from.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming

      • save nz 9.1.1

        To get hydrogen cracking water with wind power would be a good start.

        Even if you go the dirty power way, with Methane there is still less emissions than diesel.

        • Andre 9.1.1.1

          Electrolytically splitting water to produce hydrogen, compressing the hydrogen for storage, then using the hydrogen to generate electricity in a fuel cell is very wasteful of energy.

          Last time I looked into it the round trip efficiency was around 25% at best, meaning the electrical energy back out was a quarter of what went in. If the hydrogen was used in an internal combustion engine, the efficiency is even worse. In comparison, battery storage can have round trip efficiencies over 85%.

          From an engineering perspective it’s vastly more difficult to safely handle large quantities of hydrogen compared to batteries or organic liquids and gases.

          My crystal ball (a notoriously crap one to be sure) says the only way hydrogen is likely to become a significant part of our future energy mix is if someone develops a viable industrial scale photocatalytic method of splitting water.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.2

      Much better to just electrify the rail networks and power them with renewable electricity generation.

  8. Andre 10

    Another interesting process for waste-to-biofuel.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/11/161102134504.htm

    • BM 10.1

      Interesting, so much for peak oil.

      • Puckish Rogue 10.1.1

        Say something for long enough and it’ll eventually become true

        • adam 10.1.1.1

          Oh look another hate in from the usual suspects.

          One liners to spin your lies, no supporting arguments, just slag and misdirection.

          You guys are just the rock stars of the selfish politics.

      • weka 10.1.2

        What’s the EROEI? Because if you can’t put a fuel in that context then you can’t make an informed comment about Peak Oil. (then there’s the economic and transition contexts too).

        • BM 10.1.2.1

          No idea, but once again it shows the ingenuity of the human race to come up with solutions.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.1.2.1.1

            It’s not a solution. It’s just more of the same bollocks that’s got us into the mess that we’re in.

          • weka 10.1.2.1.2

            If the EROEI is poor then it doesn’t help us out of the Peak Oil problem. In order to be a solution, it needs to be a non-polluting source of energy that gives significantly more energy than it takes to produce, and it needs to work within the economics we have to hand. I agree that humans are ingenious, the problem is that at the moment they have to do that within the confines of capitalism and neoliberalism that pushes ingenuity that makes money instead of actual sustainable solutions.

            • BM 10.1.2.1.2.1

              Even if the EROEI isn’t great, what this does do is take an expensive pile of waste councils have to deal and turn into into something valuable, with which they can then sell to pay for other council services, if this is a goer I’d expect every council around to get in on the action.

              No need to have to plan for constant expansion of a cities sewage system just turn it all into black gold , seriously how cool is that.

              • weka

                If the goal is to deal with human waste, then there are far better, less-energy intensive ways of doing that that are actually sustainable over time. The EROEI issue still applies btw, because we have an urgent need to prioritise all energy use away from fossil fuel dependency.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Even if the EROEI isn’t great, what this does do is take an expensive pile of waste councils have to deal and turn into into something valuable, with which they can then sell to pay for other council services, if this is a goer I’d expect every council around to get in on the action.

                More bollocks from the delusional RWNJ.

                It’s NOT waste.

                No need to have to plan for constant expansion of a cities sewage system just turn it all into black gold , seriously how cool is that.

                So, it’s just going to magically turn into this valuable stuff when you take a dump in your pants?

            • Chuck 10.1.2.1.2.2

              weka firstly you say this…

              “In order to be a solution, it needs to be a non-polluting source of energy that gives significantly more energy than it takes to produce, and it needs to work within the economics we have to hand.”

              Then you say this, which contradicts your above paragraph.

              “agree that humans are ingenious, the problem is that at the moment they have to do that within the confines of capitalism and neoliberalism that pushes ingenuity that makes money instead of actual sustainable solutions.”

              If a solution works within the economics we have, it works “within the confines of capitalism”.

              BTW Human sludge has a energy content of 27,911 KJ/KG, as a comparison natural gas is 37,215 KJ/KG. So BM is correct is assuming it has legs…

              A well designed pyrolysis system would have an energy balance in excess of 90%. In other words produce significantly more energy than used to produce it.

              • weka

                If a solution works within the economics we have, it works “within the confines of capitalism”.

                No, you’re misrepresenting what I meant. If you can’t be bothered asking for clarification, I’m happy to assume you are being disingenuous and not bother explaining.

                Energy content is irrelevant to my point about Peak Oil. It the energy used in making the energy useful and available, and that in the context of economics that matters.

                • Chuck

                  “No, you’re misrepresenting what I meant. If you can’t be bothered asking for clarification, I’m happy to assume you are being disingenuous and not bother explaining.”

                  Yes please explain weka.

                  “It the energy used in making the energy useful and available, and that in the context of economics that matters.”

                  Agree.

                  “Energy content is irrelevant to my point about Peak Oil”

                  Ok no problem, I was not referring in anyway to Peak Oil.

                  • weka

                    “Yes please explain weka.”

                    Maybe next time if you come across as genuine in the debate.

                    “Ok no problem, I was not referring in anyway to Peak Oil.”

                    Away you go then, because I was talking about Peak Oil, as was everyone else in the subthread, and that was the comment you were replying to.

                    • Chuck

                      “Maybe next time if you come across as genuine in the debate.”

                      Wow ok…

                      “Away you go then, because I was talking about Peak Oil, as was everyone else in the subthread, and that was the comment you were replying to.”

                      Again wow…yes you do mention Peal Oil, so I guess you can hang your hat on that and pretend that was all you mentioned.

              • Draco T Bastard

                If a solution works within the economics we have, it works “within the confines of capitalism”.

                Capitalism doesn’t actually work as 5000 years of recorded history proves quite conclusively.

                A well designed pyrolysis system would have an energy balance in excess of 90%. In other words produce significantly more energy than used to produce it.

                The problem isn’t that it contains energy. Empty space contains energy.

                It’s converting it into a useful form and how much energy that takes compared to how much is released. Otherwise known as ERoEI.

                • Chuck

                  “It’s converting it into a useful form and how much energy that takes compared to how much is released. Otherwise known as ERoEI.”

                  Hmm yep its also called the Energy Balance. EROEI is an interesting measure to use…just as you need to take into account emissions of any particular fuel / process in all phases of their life cycle.

                  In this example the discussion has been using human waste as the raw feedstock. Without going into a detailed long winded response, the off-takes of using human waste (into a useful form of energy) would be syn-gas. The syn-gas could be used in its current form or put through a further process to produce liquid bio-oil.

                  As human waste is a residual product, and we already have infrastructure to collect and dispose of said waste, the EROEI would be well away from the “energy cliff”.

                  We already have anaerobic digestion systems in sewage plants, they do a ok job. However using pyrolysis can double to triple the energy content of the syn-gas.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    As human waste is a residual product, and we already have infrastructure to collect and dispose of said waste, the EROEI would be well away from the “energy cliff”.

                    Not necessarily.

                    However using pyrolysis can double to triple the energy content of the syn-gas.

                    pyrolysis:

                    Pyrolysis is a thermochemical decomposition of organic material at elevated temperatures in the absence of oxygen (or any halogen). It involves the simultaneous change of chemical composition and physical phase, and is irreversible. The word is coined from the Greek-derived elements pyro “fire” and lysis “separating”.

                    Pyrolysis is a type of thermolysis, and is most commonly observed in organic materials exposed to high temperatures. It is one of the processes involved in charring wood, starting at 200–300 °C (390–570 °F).[1] It also occurs in fires where solid fuels are burning or when vegetation comes into contact with lava in volcanic eruptions. In general, pyrolysis of organic substances produces gas and liquid products and leaves a solid residue richer in carbon content, char. Extreme pyrolysis, which leaves mostly carbon as the residue, is called carbonization.

                    How much more energy is that going to take?

                    Really, you’re coming across as not knowing WTF you’re talking about. Which is, admittedly, normal for RWNJs.

                    • Chuck

                      “How much more energy is that going to take?”

                      I get the feeling you don’t understand what a Energy Balance is Draco, otherwise you would not be asking that question.

                      In short over 90% of the energy is available (from the material energy) to use after taking into account the energy required for the pyrolysis process.

                      “Really, you’re coming across as not knowing WTF you’re talking about. Which is, admittedly, normal for RWNJs.”

                      Then I am in trouble Draco, as I do this for a living…one of our projects supplies 100MW into a national grid using residual bio feedstock in place of heavy fuel oil.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      In short over 90% of the energy is available (from the material energy) to use after taking into account the energy required for the pyrolysis process.

                      So, what you’re saying is that we have bio-waste that contains 50kj of energy. We then add another 50kj of energy in pyrolysis which then gives us 90kj of available energy?

                      Now, what I’d like you to do is explain how you’re breaking the laws of physics.

                      See, what I’d expect is that most of the energy used in the conversion process would be lost as waste heat. There may be some small increase in the energy contained by the physical matter afterwards but it won’t be anywhere close to 100% of the energy used for the conversion that you’re stating happens.

                      This is why we use ERoEI. To get a full and proper accounting.

                    • Chuck

                      “So, what you’re saying is that we have bio-waste that contains 50kj of energy. We then add another 50kj of energy in pyrolysis which then gives us 90kj of available energy?”

                      Not at all…

                      Human waste has a representative energy value of 27,911 KJ/KG. To be of use as a energy source it needs to be converted. Pyrolysis is a thermochemical process that can be used to achieve this. Conversion to a syn-gas and/or bio-oils.

                      The KG of human waste is converted within 1-2 seconds into vapours that are condensed into syn-gas and/or bio-oils (temperate related). The energy content of the syn-gas and/or bio-oil is approx. 90% of the human waste starting value. The difference is the energy used for the pyrolysis process and the tiny fraction of ash left over.

                      In other words we now have approx. 25,200 KJ of usable energy.

                      Any process with a net efficiency of 90%+ is considered VERY good.

                      “See, what I’d expect is that most of the energy used in the conversion process would be lost as waste heat.”

                      No not the case.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      The KG of human waste is converted within 1-2 seconds into vapours that are condensed into syn-gas and/or bio-oils (temperate related).

                      So how much energy is used to heat the sewage for that 1 to two seconds?

                      This is really important because the energy

                      1. Has to come from somewhere and
                      2. Isn’t going into the fuel so it’s a loss

                      Which means that we have a real economic question here. Is it best to use that lost energy to do this or is it better to use it for something else?
                      Especially when you consider that we really should be putting that sewage back into the ground as fertiliser to grow food. If we don’t we’re looking at another loss in the systems that maintains our well-being.

                    • Chuck

                      “So how much energy is used to heat the sewage for that 1 to two seconds?”

                      I have already explained how a Energy Balance is measured. But to make it easy, approx. 5% of the energy of the sewage is used to provide heat for the thermochemical process to occur.

                      “Which means that we have a real economic question here. Is it best to use that lost energy to do this or is it better to use it for something else?”

                      No we don’t. Its a no brainer…economic and environmental question is answered with a big tick. Any process that achieves 90%+ nett efficiency flies past any economic measurement.

                      “Especially when you consider that we really should be putting that sewage back into the ground as fertiliser to grow food. If we don’t we’re looking at another loss in the systems that maintains our well-being.”

                      Yes its possible to use human sludge as a fertiliser, urine is pretty straight forward. Shit is a little more difficult, as you can imagine it contains lots of nasty bugs, heavy metals etc.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.2

      Another stupid idea from stupid people supported by more stupid people.

      Really, much better to return that waste to the environment and have it help grow food than to find ways to burn it to try and keep our present unsustainable system going.

      • Chuck 10.2.1

        “Really, much better to return that waste to the environment and have it help grow food than to find ways to burn it to try and keep our present unsustainable system going.”

        You must of been watching Matt Damon growing his spuds on Mars with his own shit Draco!

        Huge difference between using fossil fuels and Bio-fuels (second and third generation) which are sustainable.

        • adam 10.2.1.1

          Bring the evidence, scientific that it is, it is sustainable. Because otherwise Chuck, you are just talking bull like you normally do.

          • Chuck 10.2.1.1.1

            Maybe a better way is to learn about it yourself adam? do some research its good for the mind.

            However I will link to the NZ Green Party on sustainable Bio-fuels…yes it not’s scientific…but hey the Greens don’t lie 🙂

            “Biofuels can be made in New Zealand from crop and animal wastes, and as a by-product of food production. A standard for sustainable biofuels will prevent unfair competition from fuels which are not sustainable.”

            https://home.greens.org.nz/bills/sustainable-biofuel-bill

            • adam 10.2.1.1.1.1

              I get the wet liberal response, sheesh chucky your funny. What next, tell me to use google?

              You made a statement, which I said basically was a lie until you offer some proof. I see you can’t, so I’ll keep it short.

              You are lying.

              • Chuck

                “You made a statement, which I said basically was a lie until you offer some proof”

                Ha ha your a funny bloke adam…and are embarrassing yourself here buddy. Have a look, plenty of proof available.

                “You are lying.”

                And you seem to be a idiot adam. Unless you like acting like a 7 year old.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1.2

          Biofuels have the possibility of being sustainable on a small scale. Nowhere near enough to maintain our present profligacy.

          Fossil fuels have never been sustainable.

          • In Vino 10.2.1.2.1

            Chuck suggests that we are close to producing more energy than from what we use to produce it. In a way the internal combustion engine in its most refined form may do that – but overall we produce energy while ignoring the real cost – especially the environment.

            Perpetual motion is a dream that has never been realised, Chuck – and your dream solution will be just another deceit.

            But your optimism is refreshing to those who do not yet understand that it is tragic. I don’t feel sure that Weka expected you to make such a hopelessly optimistic statement. Human ingenuity?

            “The fact that they were able to do it,”
            said the astronomer gazing off into the air,
            “is proof that highly intelligent people
            must have been living there.”

            • Chuck 10.2.1.2.1.1

              “Perpetual motion is a dream that has never been realised, Chuck – and your dream solution will be just another deceit.”

              Just where do you get “perpetual motion” from my post? In Vino please stick to teaching languages, as you either a/ have no idea what you are talking about OR b/ you do and are just trying to stir shit (no pun intended).

              Do you know what a energy / mass balance is In Vino? I suggest you do some research and then re – read my reply to weka.

            • Robert Guyton 10.2.1.2.1.2

              Some call it human “waste”. There’s a problem right there. Even the dairy men recognise that the bovine waste they used to flush away down a stream is in a fact valuable resource. We demean what we don’t value. We see ourselves as separate from what once was us. Hair and toe nails get the same treatment. As soon as it’s on the floor, it’s “unpleasant”. Food scraps, the same. They become “Icky”. Human waste. Put it all into the soil. It will be enthusiastically received.

  9. Morrissey 11

    “So this is one advantage of being near a Jewish settlement!”
    Bryan Crumps’ callow and fatuous conversation with Fadwa Hodali

    Nights with Bryan Crump, RNZ National, Monday 31 October 2016

    The dishonest, trivial and evasive tone of this disgraceful 22 minutes was established in the RNZ website’s promo note: “Reporting from Bethlehem in the West Bank of the Palestinian territories, is freelance journalist Fadwa Hodali.” Not a mention there, nor in the entire interview, that the West Bank has been illegally occupied for the last 49 years by a brutal military force. There is not a hint that the settlements they mention several times are, likewise, completely illegal and condemned under international law. Not even the slightest mention of the bands of heavily armed settlers that routinely rampage through Palestinian villages, terrorizing, beating and killing children and old people, chopping down and bulldozing Palestinian olive trees, setting fire to Palestinian crops, and inflicting pain, degradation and humiliation on Palestinians every day.

    Fadwa Hodali does say something about the grueling, illegal Israeli checkpoints that make Palestinian life so unbearable, but Crump seems uninterested. Instead he prefers to chunter on in his lighthearted manner about the quality of telephone reception. Perhaps the most insulting, insensitive part of this fiasco comes when he, in apparent seriousness, asks if Palestinian children approach IDF compounds or illegal settlements for Halloween…..

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201821977

    BRYAN CRUMP: The Nights production team had a MAJOR breakthrough last week. We managed to find a new Palestinian correspondent to replace Nida’ Tuma, who was our woman on the West Bank before she joined the BBC. One of the problems in FINDING someone to replace Nida’ was finding someone with a decent phone line. But WE KNEW when we heard Fadwa answer her phone, Fadwa Hodali, that we were ON to something! Because that phone line was, relatively speaking, pretty good. I wouldn’t say clear as a bell, but still good. I spoke with her a few minutes ago, from her home in Bethlehem. That’s right!—Bethlehem, the birth place of Jesus, which for me and maybe you too conjures up images of rocky fields of pasture, some sheep or goats, shepherd, cobblestones, a few stone buildings, an inn, some stables. I remarked to Fadwa that twenty-first century Bethlehem is probably NOTHING LIKE that.
    FADWA HODALI: Definitely not, no, you’re right, you’re right Bryan, definitely not. Bethlehem is a modern city. You can see high-rise buildings, nightlife, restaurants, like any other city that you try to enjoy what it offers. Unfortunately the only thing that we’re REALLY missing here, not only in Bethlehem but the whole West Bank, is the political stability, the political stability that everybody feels on a daily basis. Bethlehem is only a few miles away from Jerusalem, and this is something that we cannot enjoy, going to Jerusalem, because of the checkpoints, because of the wall that was built years ago. So this restricts the movement of Palestinians and they’re limited in a certain square mile that they have to live, enjoy life and it’s very difficult, you know. Five minutes, ten minutes away to be in Jerusalem, and not enjoying the beautiful scenery there. Half an hour from the beach—some kids are not even able to go to the beach, they don’t know what the beach is, because they need permission from the Israelis to go there. So it’s not easy, it’s not easy living here. Palestinians try to make the most of it, but it’s still very difficult.
    BRYAN CRUMP: How far is, how FAR is Jerusalem from you?
    FADWA HODALI: It’s, what?, five minutes away.
    BRYAN CRUMP: REALLY?
    FADWA HODALI: Five minutes. Yes, yes.
    BRYAN CRUMP: By car? So you’re almost, you’re just next DOOR to Jerusalem. But how long does it take to get there if you want to travel there?
    FADWA HODALI: Well, it depends on the situation at the checkpoint. Sometimes you can pass by, five minutes at the checkpoint, and sometimes it takes you half an hour, an hour to cross. And of course in the early morning is when the Palestinian workers cross through the checkpoint to work in the Israeli area. And of course there you would see thousands and thousands and thousands of people in lines waiting to be searched and cross. So you would see a worker coming into the checkpoint when he needs to start working at seven a.m., he has to be at the checkpoint around three o’clock in the morning, to be able to be at work at seven o’clock. So you can imagine the pressure in there, you can imagine the kind of lives they are leading. So it’s not easy, it’s not easy at all.
    BRYAN CRUMP: So to some extent is Bethlehem a bit of a dormitory suburb for people who work in Jerusalem? Are there lots of people who actually depend on jobs in Jerusalem for their livelihoods?
    FADWA HODALI: Well actually a lot of people from all over the West Bank depend on jobs on the Israeli side, whether it’s from the construction—mostly construction sites. But yes, for example in the Bethlehem area, we have a lot of people go there. They work for Christian institutions, they work as teachers in the Jerusalem area, so yes there is quite a number from Bethlehem that cross on a daily basis to go to their jobs in Jerusalem, definitely.
    BRYAN CRUMP: What’s the main economic activity in Bethlehem? I’m guessing TOURISM is quite important in Bethlehem because of the, uh, Christian story.
    FADWA HODALI: Well yeah definitely it is. Definitely, absolutely. Tourism is the number one in the Bethlehem area. It dropped the last two years also, because of the unrest that started last year. But definitely at some point we see the hotels fully booked, constantly you see the tourist buses in the street, the tourists going into the Old City. So you can feel the Bethlehem atmosphere. But unfortunately those tourists, a lot of them don’t sleep in the Bethlehem area. So they just bring them for the day, they spend the day and leave, and that is a big loss for the tourism industry here. For the reason of instability, whatever, they tell the tourists that no we can’t stay here, it’s unstable, and then they take them and they get to sleep somewhere else, on the Israeli side. So this is a major problem that the tourism industry is facing also.
    BRYAN CRUMP: One problem we have at RNZ, Radio New Zealand, in finding a Palestinian correspondent, has been finding somebody who has a good phone line. Is telecommunications infrastructure a bit DIRE on the West Bank, or have we just been unlucky until we found YOU and your FABULOUS phone line I might add?
    FADWA HODALI: No, not really, not really, actually you’re correct, you’re right in everything that you said. Actually you’re calling me on an Israeli line that I have.
    BRYAN CRUMP: REALLY? How do you manage to have an Israeli line in BETHLEHEM?
    FADWA HODALI: Yeah, well, remember that ALL our infrastructure is provided, specially designed, by the Israelis. We don’t have 3G access here by the way. The Israelis are still putting obstacles on the equipment that meets you coming into the Palestinian territories. They give the Palestinians …[garbled]… but we still are not functioning on a 3G internet. So you can IMAGINE how slow the internet is, especially on the phones. When you are at home it’s fine, but when you leave, everything is digital, you know, you have to check your emails, and use everything constantly, whether you are on the road or at work, so you need to have access to a 24-hour internet, and unfortunately we lack that in the Palestinian Territories. The few telecommunication companies that we have provide the internet but they’re not 3G. So we pay a tremendous amount of money for phone services while if you get a line, an Israeli line, which pretty much all Palestinians have a second line which they use mostly for internet, it’s cheap, fifty shekels or twenty dollars, less than twenty dollars, you can have unlimited calls, unlimited internet and all the time that you want. So the reason we have a very weak service here is that certain areas, part of the West Bank, the signal is very weak. Not enough towers being put out there. I would imagine that we can’t have a really decent phone conversation. I have for example a Palestinian song that I use locally and also internationally, and international calls they give you a really good deal on it. But I’m at home and the phone is roaming, because the signal is very weak from the local companies, so I have to roam into the Israeli company lines. So imagine the phone bills! [chuckles ruefully] So that’s why you are likely to be able to get hold of me, because you are talking to me on an Israeli phone line.
    BRYAN CRUMP: And you’ve got a GOOD Israeli line because you’re in the right pla-a-a-ace, not–because it sounds to me from what you’ve SAID, it’s not necessarily that more expensive but you have to be in the right place.
    FADWA HODALI: You have also to be in the right place, yes, because sometimes you are relying on the Israeli line crossed into the West Bank, there are certain areas that your Israeli line cannot work in there. Not enough coverage. I live in Bethlehem and surrounding us on pretty much four sides are all settlements. So you can imagine [rueful chuckle] the amount of coverage and towers that have been put out there for them to enjoy.
    BRYAN CRUMP: [jocular tone] So this is one advantage of being near a Jewish settlement!

    Awkward pause…..

    FADWA HODALI: Um, I don’t want to call it an advantage. Ha ha!
    BRYAN CRUMP: Heh heh!
    FADWA HODALI: [bitterly] Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
    BRYAN CRUMP: A SILVER LINING, that’s what we sa-a-a-a-a-ay! I dunno if you ever use that phra-a-a-ase.

    ….Extended silence…..

    FADWA HODALI: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! [Deep intake of breath] So, uh, this is the Palestinian life, you know, the daily Palestinian life is not easy, basically.
    BRYAN CRUMP: Um, actually I wanted to go back, I don’t REALLY want to go back to a darker, um, aspect, to the conversation, but I, it’s kinda part of an ongoing ISSUE for YOU, and that is the recent spate of, of KNIFE ATTACKS on Israelis which you mentioned before, and, uh, when I’ve spoken to OTHERS, uh, about this in the Palestinian Territories, one of the reasons put up is frustration with the lack of progress vis-a-vis some kind of settlement with Israel. But I’m wondering whether another thing a lot of YOUNG Palestinians are feeling is frustration with their OWN LEADERSHIP, as in Mahmoud Abbas is OLD and frail and out of TOUCH with young Palestinians?
    FADWA HODALI: Well, a lot of frustration, yes, you can sense a lot of frustration. A lot of frustration of the political deadlock—there’s no horizon for any political solution. For over twenty years, negotiations and negotiations and negotiations and talks have not resulted in anything. Palestinians see the result on the ground: more settlement building, more incursions, more arrests. Life is not normal for a young Palestinian, it’s not. So definitely there would be a blame on the leadership, whether it’s Mahmoud Abbas or it’s somebody else, actually, in regards to that. So, yeah, we’ve seen a lot of—-
    BRYAN CRUMP: He, he’s, Mahmoud Abbas is, is now in his eighties isn’t he.
    FADWA HODALI: Yes he’s in his eighties, definitely, and the last health issue that he had, this raised a lot of questions on his successor, what’s next, if something happens to President Abbas, who’s gonna take over, what’s going to happen in the West Bank, what’s going to happen in Gaza, where everything is. So it’s more of a soap opera here in the last two, three weeks. And of course with this issue then you have his rivals, other parties that they are not happy with his performance, have NEVER been happy with his performance, whether it’s from the Hamas side, whether it’s from the [unclear Arabic word]side now, so everything has just been pressured on him from all sides—not only internally but also internationally. We have Arab countries putting pressure on President Abbas to fix his internal issue, make reconciliation with Hamas, a lot of pressure being exerted from the expelled Mohammad Dahlan from Fatah wanting to come back, and he’s putting a lot of pressure on President Abbas through the Arab Quartet to come and make peace with him. So this is where the whole soap opera is happening right now, a lot of pressure. The situation is not easy because no one knows what’s next. Fatah has to choose the successor, who’s coming to take over after Abu Mazen. Israel is on the side watching, to evaluate how things are happening. We’re in a time now when the Arab world, as you know, things around us are unstable, wars from every single part. The instability that’s taking place in the Egypt side also is putting a lot of pressure on the Palestinians to make reconciliation also. So you can imagine, [wry chuckle] what’s happening in here.
    BRYAN CRUMP: Who’s most likely to succeed him, in YOUR opinion?
    FADWA HODALI: Well, ahhh, very different cases, of scenarios. But if you ask me personally, then I think that one person who everybody agrees on in the Palestinian side, whether it’s from President Abbas’s side or Hamas’s side or [Arabic name] side, or everyone that wants to get rid of President Abbas and wants someone to come over and take over, everybody agrees on one person, one person that is Marwan Barghouti. And we know Marwan Barghouti is someone that has been in the Israeli jails for years and years, over fifteen years now. And he is able, as some kind of a deal I would assume, takes place. And Fatah actually continues, there is a criteria that Fatah has to assign someone, and if Fatah agrees to assign someone which is Marwan Barghouti, then the full support will go for him, and everybody agrees on that because he is able to bring all the internal issues together. He is someone that they see in their eyes that gave most of his life for Palestine. Despite what the Israelis call him, say about him, and all that, the Palestinians see that he is the only one that is capable of making sure things don’t collapse in the West Bank. Now, if Fatah is going to do that, this is something that is being left for their convention that would be taking place at the end of November. At the end of November we are going to witness a new conference for Fatah, where they will choose a new leadership. From there they will call for a Palestinian National Council. The Palestinian National Council will hold elections and the Palestinian National Council is able to call in then for presidential and legislative elections for the whole West Bank and Gaza. But I believe that this is a very sensitive timing that the Palestinians are witnessing between now till November. We’ve seen a lot of unrest in the West Bank from the Dahlan party, he has his supporters, unrest from some refugees in the West Bank, nothing to worry about so much yet, but there is some indication that things are not going to the right way if they continue.
    BRYAN CRUMP: Now as I was riding into work today, I noticed a lot of children were out in their costumes, their Halloween costumes, their tricking and treating costumes, they’re dressing up as ghouls, and knocking on doors in the hope of getting treats or performing tricks. And I was thinking, I wonder if that’s something that PALESTINIANS do on the West Bank? Is there any kind of Halloween celebration, where YOU live?

    ….For a moment there is a stunned silence….

    FADWA HODALI: No, definitely there isn’t ANY. Definitely there isn’t any celebrations. Palestinians—it’s a tradition, I guess, Palestinians don’t have this tradition. There may be certain schools that they have the U.S. curriculum, and maybe they’ll have a small activity in their schoolyard, but more of a festival celebration than any of, you know, scaring kids and stuff like that. But no, definitely Palestinians don’t have that. [Garbled] have parties. Certain places in the West Bank, for example like Bethlehem or Ramallah, I mean those two because, these two cities, you can see the modern, the quick change in generation, the life style, so people live more of a modern… The other cities, they’re more traditional Palestinian towns. So, ahhh—-
    BRYAN CRUMP: Is there any marking of, of the Day of the Dead in Palestine?
    FADWA HODALI: No actually they celebrate the Day of the Dead and if I’m not mistaken, it’s tomorrow or the day after. So yes, Christians celebrate that. Absolutely, definitely.
    BRYAN CRUMP: How many Christians live in, given that it’s the birthplace of Jesus, how many Christians live in Bethlehem?
    FADWA HODALI: In the West Bank, unfortunately they don’t reach the seventy thousand people. This includes Bethlehem and the whole surrounding area, parts of Ramallah area, this is where mostly Christians, you see them living. A little bit up north, but not much. For example, I don’t think there’s any Christian families in the Hebron governorate. They’re mostly in the Bethlehem governorate and the Ramallah governorate. Unfortunately we’ve seen a lot of emigration from the Christian side.
    BRYAN CRUMP: People LEAVING the area?
    FADWA HODALI: Leaving the area, yes, and seeking better opportunity. Especially the young generation. The young generation, we’re witnessing that a lot, and this is a real loss, because you know, you get to a point in life where you see more of the elderly than the younger generation, and you need the renewal of blood in order to continue and sustain the daily life. So unfortunately a lot of people from the Christian society leave.
    BRYAN CRUMP: So there won’t be any kids knocking on YOUR door tonight? Asking for treats.
    FADWA HODALI: No, definitely not. [laughs wryly]
    BRYAN CRUMP: Nor on the local Israeli army barracks doors or any settlement gates for that matter.
    FADWA HODALI: No, definitely not. Absolutely not, because I don’t think you don’t know what’s going to happen next. [laughter] It’s unfortunate. Unfortunate that we live in a situation where, a few miles away, you have a military post, and you have a checkpoint, and you can’t lead a normal life. And I hope this all ends soon, for the sake of everybody, on both sides, because I think, my opinion is, enough of bloodshed for both sides, and life needs to continue, and, you know, but it’s politics. [resigned sigh] Ha ha ha.
    BRYAN CRUMP: Fadwa, thanks so much for joining us.
    FADWA HODALI: No problem. Thanks Bryan.
    BRYAN CRUMP: Fadwa Hodali, our new Palestinian correspondent on a rather GOOD PHONE LINE from Betlehem. More from Fadwa early next year. LIAT COLLINS, our correspondent in ISRAEL, is on the line from JERUSALEM on Wednesday.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201821977

    • James 11.1

      Question – do you manually type the shows or is the text made avaialable ?

      • Morrissey 11.1.1

        I transcribe them, laboriously on my keyboard, one soundbite at a time. I type quite fast, but still it takes me about an hour to transcribe five minutes. I’d love it if there was a transcript available for each show, like there is for Democracy Now! but there isn’t, so there’s no alternative but to slog through the sound archive file.

        In the past, I would furiously scribble out rush transcripts in my bush shorthand; they contained some inaccuracies, which some of my friendly rivals here pounced on occasionally.

        But I think this particular transcript is pretty much perfect, apart from my inability to understand a couple of Arabic words used by Fadwa Hodali.

    • Red 11.2

      Stop your bleating, not every interview has to be political and meet your warped view of the world

    • reason 11.3

      Thanks for the transcript Morrissey ………. I appreciate your efforts which provide me with information and snapshots of what our media is dishing up ….. that I would otherwise miss out on.

      Your posts are informative and educational ……… which is probably why our troll dick pics have been bunting away at you….

      Take it as a compliment that they see you as a threat and resent you …..Personally I try and use trolls and their trolling to provide more information for other readers …..

      They troll …… we inform

  10. Pasupial 12

    Mr five-votes has already started spouting his verbal diarrhoea at the ORC. The depressing thing is that the ODT see fit to give him the headline, and so ensure this stream will continue to ooze:

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/laws-keen-reform-orc

  11. adam 13

    Why did the Motorhead song, eat the rich keep running through my head when I read this?

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11741144

    Oh to be a buddy of the national party ah, you pays your money and you get what you want. Seems like everything else this government does, give the uber-rich exactly what they want, and we get to cover the cost of it.

    • Puckish Rogue 13.1

      And the problem is what exactly? They’re successful?

      • adam 13.1.1

        So say’s the selfish one. Funny how for your lot, a different rule of law when you have money, but you cry like little children when it comes to Maori.

        Should it be Puckish Hypocrite Rouge?

    • Chuck 13.2

      Thanks for pointing out adam that NZ is indeed a stable, safe and pretty cool place to call home.

      • Robert Guyton 13.2.1

        Gareth Morgan points to the rot at the top: National’s climate con.

        “Readers need to appreciate, this challenge of reducing emissions has been no harder for New Zealand than it has been for other countries. But because we have done nothing for the past 8 years, that inaction is catching up with us. We need a plan to actually reduce emissions, and quickly. Our inaction to date is going to cost this country more than it would have if we had already acted instead of cheated.”

        http://morganfoundation.org.nz/now-government-climate-negotiations/

        • Chuck 13.2.1.1

          Gareth Morgan has some good points and bad…knew him from his Infometrics days…

          I would love to see the current Government (or the next) increase the current landfill levy charge to at least $50 tonne (better still $80 tonne). We can reduce current waste to landfill by 90%, but the levy is currently set way too low.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 13.2.2

        “NZ is indeed a stable, safe and pretty cool place to call home.”

        Particularly if you happen to have extracted hundreds of millions from those around you. If you are not mega-rich, you might find yourself with a low paid, insecure job, and sleeping in your car.

      • adam 13.2.3

        Unless you are poor or brown.

        Rich and white on the other hand – Chuckies world…

  12. AncientGeek 14

    Annoying break in transmission. Had a power plug for the fibre terminator that had worked its way out.

    I need to protect that interface a bit better.

  13. Richard Rawshark 15

    I see jono Naylor has quit National after 1 year…

    Makes on wonder why.. that bloody awful?

  14. greywarshark 16

    The closing down of the welfare part of the state. Leaving us in a state of disarray and poverty which has largely been caused by government adopting a particularly skewed economic and social model. This was in conjunction with Ttreasury which I thought was supposed to be keeping an eye on government expenditure not running it.

    Budget advisors are at fault for not solving the problems of poor people so their money is taken from them and given mainly to the poorest.

    CYF is closed down because it didn’t work and now ten agencies throughout the country are going to watch families from birth ready to pounce on them to prevent bad parenting and if they fail, the children will be taken and be cared for by ‘loving families’. This is under the aegis of Anne Tolley and hopefully her family won’t be one of the adoptive ones, not much lurve there.

    And if the parents don’t get it together they won’t get a chance to bond with their kids, and if they do later get them back it will be traumatic for the children to be uplifted from their loving family.

    Corin Dann has a good interview on Q and A with Anne Tolley reported in Scoop April 2016.
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1604/S00128/q-a-anne-tolley-interviewed-by-corin-dann.htm

    and the Dominion Post and stuff reported ‘Scrapping parenting aid ‘appalling’ in June 2016.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/81330323/families-miss-out-on-governmentfunded-programme-teaching-parenting-skills
    Last month Social Development Minister Anne Tolley announced an annual budget of $7.3 million would be “reprioritised to support more vulnerable children and their families”.
    The money, previously allocated to Parents As First Teachers (PAFT), would be added to the Family Start budget, which currently works with 5000 at-risk families.

    But PAFT providers, who offer free in-home visits teaching parents how to encourage reading, deal with behavioural issues and create a safe environment for kids, say the vast majority of families will now miss out. …
    Leanne Dawson of Space NZ Trust said:
    Many of the families PAFT are working with wouldn’t meet any of the eligibility criteria for Family Start, Dawson said.
    Others had transferred from Family Start and don’t want to go back.

    Tolley said Family Start is a “proven programme that has been shown to reduce post-neonatal mortality and increase reporting of child abuse and neglect”.
    She said Plunket and Barnados, two of the largest providers of PAFT, were consulted and gave “positive feedback” regarding the reprioritisation.

    Tolley is interested in preventing deaths and increased reporting of what people consider is child abuse and neglect. The agencies that are helping parents to deal with their problems, and also to prevent them arising are being shut down!!??
    Where the hell is the sense in that National. Oh you don’t work with ‘sense’ you are into firm statements of intent to deal with problems. And then……0…0….0….XX++.

    Also Scoop in May 2016 on PAFT (Parents as First Teachers) being scrapped and the Trust the contract taken from Space NZ.
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1605/S00301/announcement-by-anne-tolley-regarding-paft-funding.htm

  15. Richard Rawshark 17

    idiots, time for some light relief. See if you can spot a prospective national candidate.

  16. NZJester 18

    So apparently we had an attempted domestic terrorist attack that proves that the governments new intelligence powers are working as they should to protect us.
    We are not allowed to know the location in New Zealand it happened, who was involved or what they had planed, but we have to trust the government that they are telling us the truth when they say they just foiled a domestic terrorist attack.
    With all the stories that National ministers have made up in the past that have been proven false, I have serious doubts that anything actually happened at all.

  17. Jenny 19

    “The staggering violence of the regime”

    The tragedy of Daraya

  18. weka 20

    [In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.

    If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift comments from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted – weka]

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