Had the misfortune of taking public transport yesterday. I was a little into the trip when Hay fever reared its ugly head. A sneeze and cough had the man in front of me turn around; look at me, remove a Vicks Vapour Tube from his pocket and proceed to treat both his nostrils. Satisfied I now knew I was a cretin, he returned to reading his paper. That was followed by an elderly man pulling up along side our bus at a intersection. He was riding a high end racing bike and was kitted out in racing Lycra. He also had a teddy bear strapped to his front handlebars.
I ask you folks, what the hell is happening in Aotearoa?
Well, we know TV news ain't getting brighter or better. Last night a reporter asked why people were still swimming in a part of a river that had claimed four lives. It probably didn't cross this reporters mind that the river may have had nothing to do with recent drownings. The story also slyly wove in the disappointment of a Maori rahui being ignored. That part of the story showed a pakeha dude beached like a whale sunning himself on the river bank. That reiterated to viewers pakeha are ignorant and up to no good again.
This country is becoming so wacky, it wouldn't surprise me if we mandated nuclear energy as clean and green and started arresting those nutters who protested against nuclear ships in our harbour.
'When we go swimming and our eyes turn red, it’s because swimmers have peed in the water.'
“The nitrogen in the urine combines with the chlorine and it forms what’s known as chloramine and it’s actually chloramine that causes the red eyes," Michele Hlavsa, chief of the CDC’s healthy swimming program told TODAY in 2015. "It’s chlorine mixed with poop and sweat and a lot of other things we bring into the water with us.”
Far too lax, Pucky. You have failed to ban accidental falling into the water by those who cannot swm – who will soon be an absolute majority under your system..
We had compulsory swimming lessons at my primary school in the shallow end of our school pool. For some reason I could never get the hang of it. I'd let go of the flutter board & promptly panic & put my feet down.
I finally learnt to swim aged about 8 or 9 when we came down from New Plymouth & visited rellies in Upper Hutt. It was Summer & we & our cuzzies about our own age went up the Remutaka Road to Kaitoke Forest Park for a picnic.
While others swam in the Hutt River, I just waded about in me togs & then went boulder-climbing on the river bank. Not realising I couldn't swim, my cousin David pushed me off a boulder into a very deep pool of water. I sank to the bottom. The water was cystal clear, & before I'd even had time to panic I'd floated back up to the surface without any effort.
So I just dog-paddled to the beach on the other side & bingo – I'd learned to swim. Best thing anyone could have done to teach me to swim.
I'd been wondering how four people could have drowned in the Manawatu River in two days. From the video shown on 1ewes at 6 of the Rescue chopper & a number of people searching the river, it seemed a pretty placid river.
But then I heard one of the searchers (might have been a police officer) say that in this area of the river it goes very suddenly from one metre deep to five metres. Maybe they were wading in it in clothes or got caught up in underwater obstructions in the deep part?
With the last very heavy rainfall we had in Welly, some trees & logs have come down my stream & it'll take a pretty decent flood to shift them. Manawatu got that heavy rain too. Whatever the cause, it's bloody tragic.
Water in swimming pools is deemed a danger that requires comprehensive regulations around its fencing-off. Water anywhere else should always be regarded as capable of being bloody treacherous.
Id be fairly confident those who drowned this past week or so could swim (at least to some degree)….if you cant swim you generally avoid unsupervised water sports.
As a recipient of school swimming lessons, i was one of a good 30% ( in the cohort) who never mastered it until considerably latter, and those school swimming lessons were of little use….hence providing one on one lessons for our children.
Me too. As I posted above. In my case I learned to swim by accident, as I posted above, when I found out that we naturally float & that once you let yourself float it’s a relatively simple thing to keep your head above water.
(Although I nearly drowned 20 years later when I came out of a kayak in the Pauatahanui Inlet at high water on a rapidly outgoing tide when I got completely exhausted swimming after the kayak & slipped under the surface getting a couple of lungfuls of seawater before I realised I needed to swim just a few metres to the nearby mudflats, and go after the kayak on land. That’s when I realised how easy it is to drown if you’re exhausted.)
I’m curious, Pat. Just out of interest, can you remember at what age you finally learned to swim, & what it was that made the difference from your failed school swimming lessons?
@Gezza….we had compulsory summer swimming lessons in school pool every year from standard one until I think standard 4, from memory they stopped at standard 5/6….what changed for me to be able to swim?…practice and avoiding freestyle as much as possible….breathing was always my problem.
I can recall a good few kids who hated swimming lessons and would do whatever they could to avoid them.
@ maui; I realise your tongue is in your cheek when you say that, but being able to swim doesn't necessarily prevent drowning.
I was fishing at the Mataikona river mouth last week. A chappie 50 meteres away was putting out his Fish Seeker. Half an hour or so later him and his wife are winching it in. It appears to be snagged and he is hauling on the line trying to retrieve the gear.
He ended up going into the water waist deep and pulling on the line. 10 mins later and there are calls for help. I ended up going out to him, about 60 metres out, about 8 feet deep. He has the line wrapped around his arms, pinning them to his body and has run out of strength to keep his head above water.
I managed to free him and get him on his back then started to get to shore. While I was only in the water for 3ish minutes, I was spent. A good wake up call as to my lack of fitness.
One of those life events, that looking back, you can’t quite believe you did.
I got caught in a rip out at Great Barrier once while swimming off one of the ocean beaches. Had a rather desperate half an hour getting out of one rip only to fall in another before I finally staggered out on the beach.
I'm a excellent swimmer – but swimming at the Auckland west coast beaches like Muriwai or in the Kaipara north head really didn't prepare me to the Great Barrier close to the shore eddies caused by the offshore current.
Swimming is useful. But anyone can get caught out.
Social Satire Jokes
A liking for social satire jokes correlates with suspiciousness, the psychologists said. Examples of such jokes are: ''Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms'' and ''The trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.'' People who laugh at such jokes, the psychologists say, tend to have personalities that are ''jealous, dogmatic, tyrannical and irritable.'' But these same people may also score as ''imaginative'' people ''absorbed in ideas and theories.'' Such people are unconventional and it is reasonable they would enjoy social satire, Miss Bender said.
‘We can sh*t for another 10 years.’ Toilet paper, pandemic politics and cultural citizenship [9 November 2021]
The global reality of the COVID-19/Corona pandemic paradoxically boosted national politics, broadcasting and citizenship. Media coverage, especially initially, praised citizen solidarity and the creative solutions that were pioneered to care for each other. A year later, a lasting social learning curve throughout and after this crisis seems illusory. The pandemic, this paper argues, needs to be understood in a longer timeframe as the working through and coming to terms with neo-liberal governmentality. The (often hilarious) early responses on social media provide a strong entry to do so. Our focus will be on the Netherlands which had a so-called ‘intelligent’ lockdown during the first wave of COVID-19 in the spring of 2020. Using the authors’ own sharing back and forth of toilet paper memes as a starting point, we aim to explore the notion of collective self-reflection and citizen co-education underlying both heated and simply ridiculous posts. Using previous discussion of cultural citizenship, this paper inquires into how pandemic citizenship played out as a vast exercise in disciplining and distinction through jokes and anger. The material suggests a nostalgic turn that might point to an implicitly voiced critique of neoliberal governmentality.
Hopefully you were fully masked in public transport and not just wearing it as a chin strap!
I have three small smurfs blu-tacked into the space in my car where a CD player would be. I also have a bobble headed dog who springs into action when one of the lids on a space on the gear console is opened. I am happy to join forces with the elderly man in a group of NZers who say ‘who cares’.
Support the rahui as a mark of respect to those who have drowned, especially in any cases where they are still waiting for bodies to turn up. (not sure if this is still the case)
Not sure what is going on…sorry for the repetition….I seem to have a bit of lag before amended comments are showing? Most likely operator error from a strange person.
Quirky people beat the 'beigers' any day in my book
”Support the rahui as a mark of respect to those who have drowned, especially in any cases where they are still waiting for bodies to turn up. (not sure if this is still the case)”
Rahui is a Maori protocol, not European. It has no use if a body has been recovered. This will become another flash point down the road. I would not be surprised if the government or local councils have a go at making rahui observance official.
This will become another flash point down the road
Will it be as bad as your previous predicted "flashpoint", the roads from Auckland to Northland over Christmas/New Year? As you declared on here, repeatedly. Then reality arrived, and the civil war didn't.
You know the internet keeps your receipts, so maybe it's time to ease up on the forecasts without facts. They are starting to look more like wishes than warnings.
''Will it be as bad as your previous predicted "flashpoint", the roads from Auckland to Northland over Christmas/New Year? ''
Oh, dear… what flash points? Seems you are behind the news. Can you guess why there were no flash points?
''You know the internet keeps your receipts, so maybe it's time to ease up on the forecasts without facts. They are starting to look more like wishes than warnings.''
Unlike the timid soul you are who spouts regally, but never puts their mana on the line… I do. I stand by what I predict.
"an elderly man . . . was riding a high end racing bike"
Come on, give him a break. What is Trevor going to do with himself when the House is not in session and he can't organise a Speaker's tour of Europe this year?
Yeah, but did the Teddy Bear have a choice? He was tied to the handle bars… that's torture. The Teddy was brown. That's racist. I'm afraid Peter, you are showing colonial tendencies.
The valves adjust themselves these days? You don't have to close the doors either they seem to close themselves!
Just as well valves were replaced by transistors and then integrated circuits. Imagine the size of vehicle you would need, to drive all those computerized gizmos in the cars of today. 🙂
I remember the size of the valves used in the directors on the Leander Class Frigates – hang over from WW2 technology – but very effective even so. They were massive glass bottles!
But as for self adjusting poppet valves in ICEs, my first bike – a 1953 350cc Matchless with OHV had inlet and exhaust valves that did adjust themselves, whether you wanted them to or not! Especially when the primary chain broke on a run up to the Levin racing circuit one Saturday. Managed to repair the primary chain with the help of a friendly engineering workshop. But when trying to start the bike afterwards couldn't turn the engine over no matter how much weight I put on the kick start lever. The valves had adjusted themselves when the engine over revved when the primary chain broke so that they were firmly closed. Didn't discover this until I got the bike home. Dad came in the car and towed me home over the Akatarawas.
few cars coming the other way to contend with also on a Sat in those days also.
Mate and I bought a '39 Standard 10 for a tenner when we were 15. After school every day we would practice being Stirling Moss driving it up to the top of the Akatarawas and back down again. – That was until it ran its big end bearings. 🙁 His dad was a mechanic and suggested it would cost too much to repair and we should strip it for parts. Got 15 quid for the parts. 😉 So it paid for our petrol!
Why don't these gloomy bastards fuck off, no wonder they don't get votes, whining fucking no hopers. I'm allowed to be happy aren't I and so's everyone else so we put up with a bit of aggro and it works both ways right ? Case in point I got sick of fucking unused grass and shit in the backyard and needed somewhere to park the PWC so through a mate got a nice concreted area sweet and we took the kids up north and then down to nanna's at Okataina for more fun and why the fuck doesn't this fucking useless government do something about the fucking roads ?
This particularly venomous article is from Outspoken, a project of Log Cabin Republicans.
Perfect fit for left-wing site. /s
[RL: Moderation is encouraging cites to support arguments and factual claims. Attacking the comment solely because you don’t approve of the source is both lazy and unhelpful.]
I also commented on it's degree of venom, so not solely on it's source.
I don't think it's out of line to point out the origin when an article from an obscure organisation is shared here, purportedly a New Zealand focussed left-wing blog.
Clearly what you didn't want to comment on were any of the factual claims in the article. For example:
“In November,” the Daily Wire notes, “Thomas smashed the record in the 200 free time and the second-fastest 500 free time, with both times breaking Penn program records.” And last weekend, “Thomas won the 1650 free by a whopping 38 seconds, the 500 free by 12 seconds, and the 200 free by seven seconds.”
Expressing political opinion is a big part of what we do here. I don’t think there’s an obligation to read and critique a link. If someone puts up a brief comment and link, critiquing the comment, article and/or source is fair game.
I do agree that casual slurring of sources is unhelpful but basically the comment was brief and simply pointing out the right wing nature of the source. I’ve suggested next time they explain more.
This is a big issue in gender critical politics (sources), I’d rather see it hashed out rather than discouraging debate.
one aspect of that is that the left wing media have either failed to cover the issues well, or have taken a particular liberal, pro gender identity ideology position. This means that the issues are left to the right to cover. It also means it’s been hard for gc journalists and writers to get published so they’ve relied on centrist and rw outlets.
I want people here on all sides to critique sources, because that’s the only way we get to understand the issues.
Mod hat off, I also think that gc people need to get better at which sources they use. There are limits.
Wtf are you on about? I just laid out a clear rationale for letting anyone critique any source from a political perspective. A rationale that supports the robust debate ethic of TS and imo creates a better commenting community.
I’ll use whatever damn source I please, but if I link to Breitbart I would expect someone to ask why and I would expect to have to explain. If that needs explaining on a left focused blog I can but it should be self evident. In other words, this isn’t a politically neutral space.
that doesn’t mean we can only use lw sources, maybe you need to take more time to understand the argument here.
if you think TS mods should be suppressing such debate, please explain your thinking.
so the left, who wants no debate, then also gets to define what resources people can use that would like a debate?
this resource is as legit as the Guardian (who tied itselfs into bretzels and still stays in that form since the WI-SPA incident – or should we consider what they served up as objective journalism). They comment on an event, do so as fair and as resonable as anywhere else, and frankly i have read the article, i can not find fault with it.
GC people are people who are on the right, the middle and the left, and they will bring sources that are on the right, the middle and the left.
The only limit on what one reads, listens or views is the limit that is imnposed by others. And we used to call this censure.
I suggest everyone actually read the link and then comment on that content of the article rather then the publication being of the "Log Cabin Republicans' aka the offical Gay – Lobby of the Republican Party.
We should critique sources, but we should base that critique on the words uttered rather then the perceived political allegiance of any given source. To simply deny a book/article/item a read/view/listen because it is printed under the wrong cover of ideology is lazy, imo. I would like to point out Marilyn Waring, should be discount her words and findings because she was a Member of the National Party and an MP for them?
We can read a conservative, liberal, libertarian, and communist publication on the same topic, walking away with the same information but different ideological spin. As is with the above publication. And then we can discuss the difference in ideology, but we can only do that if we actually start reading, listening and viewing items that we would otherwise ignore due to 'source' bias. And that is a thing that is currently happening big time, i think they call it 'cancellation' now a days.
Maybe put a trigger warning for those that can not abide by different thoughts and ideas then those that they approve of, but that really should be it. Even a stopped clock is twice a day correct.
I agree up to a point. Problem is, some website are just propaganda trash and if there is no critique at that level then people share information and it just gets accepted. This is very common on FB.
I agree we can read widely and I think writing off a partisan source casually is is a problem, although I won't read Kiwiblog or Slater's new blog, they have such a history of dirty politics that I don't think they can be trusted.
I never read Slater of Kiwi blog for that matter, but then i don't consider either one of them 'news' either. I consider them to be in the 'privately held opinions and believe' category, where i would put the Daily Blog, The Standard and many other blogs.
The point is that generally what is discussed is what goes on daily but with different view points. What gets to me is that immediate dismissing of a source because it 'right wing' or 'far left' or 'too centric', all of them meaningless descriptions by now, and often hurled to shut people up rather then make a point.
I don't trust any of the writers of big publications or televised news and government sponsored PR figurines/ettes, generally speaking their rather nice and comfortable lifes depend on getting paid by words and getting these words printed. Why would i trust such a person? Why would i trust the NZ Herald more then say the Daily Fail? they are both tabloid material at best, useless waste of paper at worst, but both will bring a bit of news. And by reading both i get the news the other would not print due to their own biases.
So really, do read especially those that you don't trust. That way you are aware at the very least of their talking points. Sadly, we live in a world were marching lockstep is almost mandated now, so wanting or expecting a variety of view points might be soon controversial if it is not already so.
That Trudeau link/story was puerile. I am glad you critiqued it. I often critique sources and it does help if the poster does recognise that posting from some sources does make readers gulp at first glance sometimes.
lol – it was a tweet with Trudeau from his blackface days designed to make a simple point about his hypocrisy. And there was absolutely nothing "pro Covid" about it – a risible and pathetic contention.
Mind you, in the linked interview, he absolutely was suggesting that racists shouldn't be tolerated – at least, not unvaccinated ones – and that racists would essentially account for all the "not to be tolerated" unvaccinated people who weren't either anti-science and/or misogynists.
In other words, a poster child of liberalism was dog-whistling "open season" on unvaccinated people who wouldn't otherwise be convinced that pumping their body with an m-RNA injection was a good thing.
It was the classic "I'm not (insert), and while we can convince some (insert) to adhere to our preferences, there are those other (insert) and well, they're beyond the pale and ought not to be tolerated"
And anyone who can't see that, or refuses to acknowledge that, probably fancies themselves as some kind of "Covid Cop" and will be psychologically or otherwise 'tooling up' for the season to commence.
Here is a factual article covering the topic without the needless spin from the Log Cabin Republicans or Ben Shapiro’s Daily Wire. Note the difference in tone, and emphasis on the facts:
Unsurprisingly, Thomas’ impressive performances have raised controversy from those who believe that Thomas’ sex at birth should disqualify her from competing in female sporting events, despite the NCAA’s rules on athletes who are transitioning.
The media is in New Zealand has let women down in its reporting of the issues around gender ideology and women’s rights. Groups like SUFW had their meetings canceled and had to go to the High Court, who found they were not a hate group and their meetings should go ahead. They also had their adverts cancelled even though the ASA had found their add not offensive.
Apologies if you don’t like the source of the article, but I am more interested in getting some reporting on the facts, ie a male bodied swimmer in the US who was a mediocre swimmer in male competitions is breaking all sorts of records in the female competitions and women competitors are powerless to do anything about it.
you claim it is a verminous article, but I think that is a matter of opinion. Women have every right to feel furious about this IMO
The media is in New Zealand has let women down in its reporting of the issues around gender ideology and women’s rights. Groups like SUFW had their meetings canceled and had to go to the High Court, who found they were not a hate group and their meetings should go ahead. They also had their adverts cancelled even though the ASA had found their add not offensive.
You are absolutely right, imo. It shows the sorry state of Political Correctness & fear of opprobium around gender-self-ID & trans-athletes adopted by the media. Rather than having the gonads to publish fair commentary from both sides, they seem to avoid any mention of the problems it IS and/or may cause CIS women.
It almost seems like suddenly being a CIS-gendered woman (or man) & having an opinion piece critical of trans-gender female athletes being allowed to compete with CIS-gendered females is subject to an editorial ban on NZ msm publication.
you claim it is a verminous article, but I think that is a matter of opinion. Women have every right to feel furious about this IMO
Yes, they have passed some rules that allow them to compete against Non Males.
I suggest that this person continues swimming in the Non Males team, and i suggest that any other coach anywhere who wants to win in the 'Female Sports' starts hiring other Non Females for that winning advantage and soon we will have full teams with Trans Women competing against Trans Women. And the little Non Males who whinge for not being able to compete and win against Non Females can just stay home.
"unsurprizingly Thomas impressive performance has raised controversy"….
I would pull you up right there. Its not an impressive performance at all. Thomas is male bodied and therefore has a significant advantage. See my Radio New Zealand link below in my comment to I prent.
Ross Tucker sports scientist speaks. So it should read "Thomass "impressive" performance….
That unfair competition has been ruled permissable, because the sporting body has decided that "inclusion" takes priority over fairness.
This decision has been made knowing that male bodied athletes retain a biological advantage, despite reducing testosterone.
Biological sex categories existed in sport as an acknowledgment of the differences in performance. That advantage has not disappeared. What has disappeared is the priorities of fairness, and safety.
Most of the posters here on this issue, have expressed their concerns over the impact of legislative and policy changes that prioritise gender identity over biological sex.
That Thomas ( who as a male category swimmer was not particularly succesful ) was according to another report loudly extolling his/her winning ability and rather unfortunatley reminded me of another who lauded his ability in "winning"a "fire fight " when not only doing so as the only one armed but did it with an Armalite.
The media is in New Zealand has let women down in its reporting of the issues around gender ideology and women’s rights. Groups like SUFW had their meetings canceled and had to go to the High Court, who found they were not a hate group and their meetings should go ahead. They also had their adverts cancelled even though the ASA had found their add not offensive.
Apologies if you don’t like the source of the article, but I am more interested in getting some reporting on the facts, ie a male bodied swimmer in the US who was a mediocre swimmer in male competitions is breaking all sorts of records in the female competitions and women competitors are powerless to do anything about it.
you claim it is a verminous article, but I think that is a matter of opinion. Women have every right to feel furious about this IMO
Expect to see more of it here? I guess people will have all sport events large and small under watch, ready to report of 'strange things.'
Few will care about a tennis tournament in Nelson, or care about tennis, or care about sports, but if there's a hint of a competitor in a women's event there 'looking masculine,' Nelson, tennis, sports and women in sport will become the most important things in the history of the world for some.
It seems that people are going to be pivoting around the main point – this theft of natural identity at will as a social movement, not a personal imperative. Males saying they are females and females saying they are males.
I wonder if females can utilise this new glitch in society's reasoning. Seeing they get paid on average 80% of male wages and get downgraded for bearing and rearing the nation's children, an unimportant sideline thing, can they leverage themselves into a better space being bi-sexual?
Well, RL, any day now, any day now they can be a bit noisy while being unimpressed, and above all they can also support those that are noise about it.
As i said before, this will undo 'sex', not only as a protected category for women – which many may actually not have an issue with, but this will also then affect men. Men now give birth, Men now menstruate, Anyone can be a Man and you can not do a damn thing about it.
Again, my issue is the 'Self' part of the ID thing. And as it stands now i can declare myself a bloke, run for the male leadership of my local Green party shop, not change a single thing, and these people would not be allowed to say a single thing lest they fear calls of Transphobia. Somewhere all of this has gone insane.
And this swimmer belies in so many ways the – they have no advantage – bullshit that TRA throw at women and expect them to swallow it up wholesale lest they lose their jobs, have the police come knocking on the door, have death and rape threats send to them etc etc, btw, all of whom are not 'hate crimes'.
If men are concerned about this, start making some noise.
Well then you must complain to your trainer, or simply break the rules and speak up. And remember that we expect Non Males to be kind and accommodating, so if we can find it with in us to speak about what is happening in our lifes and how it affects us and do i need to remind you the consequences of that speaking out for many – Maya Forstater, JKR – and any other Terf who is supposed to 'suck lady dick' for not believing that humans can change sex- maybe men can find that courage too.
It is neither the fault nor the problem of Non Males if Males feel compelled to think that this does not affect them, until it eventually does – and most likely then it will be too late to change a thing – that is on them entirely.
I wish all the Non Female persons who are a bit unhappy about the happenings going on that they find some courage and conviction and above all that they find their voice, regardless of their 'training'.
Yeah, it has. It’s possibly somehow got all tied up with Cancel Culture & multiple bullshit pronouns insisted on by some really strange folk. There’s a whole range of odd people out there who are insisting on their right to be, do, or say whatever they like & to mob-attack critics who disagree with whatever they are trying to force others to accept or do.
I wish all the Non Female persons who are a bit unhappy about the happenings going on that they find some courage and conviction and above all that they find their voice, regardless of their ‘training’.
They do. Privately mostly. After 6 decades of men being told by strident feminists to shut up & never to have the temerity to presume they can speak for women, because they’re NOT women, it’s a bit difficult to find a starting place to speak from.
“Speaking as a man, I support those biological women & sportswomen who object to trans-women who’ve been through male puberty competing in women’s sports where they are likely to have a competitive advantage because of their biology & frame.
The only way to be fair about it, imo, is probably to establish a separate category of trans-women & trans-men sports competitions.”
Well, it is in the end up to everyone to decide if they are going to be quiet and silent (and put that on some vaguely defined feminists or such) when they see that the Emperor is naked or if they may rise in courage like the child and points out that indeed the Emperor is naked.
This is something that each will have to fight out with one self, how much of a lie will one participate in?
“The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie. "One word of truth outweighs the world.”
― Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
also this one here 🙂
“You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me.”
― Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Ross Tucker, sports scientist, in Anker’s link below, the audio of the interview with whom I’ve now listened to in full, makes it abundantly clear that the very top men athletes will always outperform the very top women athletes because of biological/physiological sex-related differences.
That pretty much nails it I believe for most men regarding trans-women competing in women’s sport. Indon’t know any men who support it.
However male & female sports commentators don’t seem to want (or aren’t allowed by their orgs) to discuss this issue in any detail. So what most men believe isn’t likely to make any difference.
In that Tucker Interview some female rugby player (I forget who) says she doesn’t mind playing against trans-women from the body-mass/safety point of view. Tucker points out that about 10% of female athletes expressed similar views, but the other 90% were not keen.
So I’m at a loss to know why this is such a taboo subject for the msm. I can only put it down to fear of criticism & being reported on to eg the HRC for appearing to be anti-transgender.
It isn't just " that the very top men athletes will always outperform the very top women athletes". A lot of the time it is that any half competent schoolboy can do it. I mean to say, when I was in my last year at school I could, as a sprinter, outperform the best women.
In my last year at school I won the school senior 100 yards. The main reason I could do it is because I was the only one still there out of the dozen or so I had competed against in earlier years. I could run, on a very, very good day a time of about 10.4 seconds. Well I have just had a look at the times run by men and women to win the New Zealand title during the 10 years from 1954 to 2003. The fastest time for the men was 9.5 secs. For women it was 10.9 secs.
In other words I would never have been allowed to enter the men's races and I would have completely dominated the women's ones. And I was only a competent schoolboy. I wasn't a good one.
You don't have to be a "very top male" You only have to have some idea of what the event is and be male to win. It is frankly totally unfair to allow trans females to compete in sports against natal females. The natal females really don't have a chance.
You don’t have to be a “very top male” You only have to have some idea of what the event is and be male to win. It is frankly totally unfair to allow trans females to compete in sports against natal females. The natal females really don’t have a chance.
Fair enuf. You’ve looked at the times for sprints & I haven’t. I think men would outperform women in any sport that relies on muscle power.
I’m very aware that Laurel Hutton badly crashed out of medals contention at the Tokyo Olympics. So I’m not prepared to say that any competent male (or former male) can outperform women in all sports categories because I don’t know if that’s been scientifically demonstrated yet.
They did not crash out the Olympics, they should have never participated in the first place. They took the place of a young Non Male who fought for and squarely won her place of admission. They got to show up to role play an Olympian simply because this trans identified male decided to prolong their career for a few more years and finally win some medals – as a 'women' and the regulatory body of the Olympics has obviously no idea what a female human being is and let them, and in NZ everyone expected everyone to go and gush about this person and be all 'brave and stunning'. As far as the Olympics go, this person is the epitome of unsportliness, unfairness.
The difference between them and all the female competitors ?
About 15 – 20 years in age, all of the female were in their twenties while this person was in their 40's. A trans identified male in his 40s was competing against non males in their 20s. A trans identified male who all their life trained as a male, competed as a male and in their late 30 – around 33+(maybe 36) started winning medals against women and thus got to participate in an event that they never would have participated in as a male as they would never have been good enough to qualify. Having almost 15 odd years ahead in training, experience, etc, is certainly no advantage to anyone when competing and certainly not for a trans identified male who competes against young woman for whom this is a ONCE in a life time event.
This person did not flunk out, this person won by simply showing up. That they then were what everyone could see, a human well past their prime time, slightly out of shape for an event as the Olympics, and with physical issues, and actually could only be a loser, has got nothing do with anything. To win they only needed to show their unsportlym, unhealthy and unfit self on that stage. Selfish is as selfish does.
They could have done the correct thing and simply opt out, but who would give them then their public affirmation and adoration for being 'stunning and brave' while essentially having cheated a proper contender out of her place, so that they could strut around like a naked emperor with no one daring to call out the nakedness of that emperor.
Who cares about looking masculine? The issue is of fairness and sexism in allowing male bodied people to compete in female only competitions. There’s a large body of evidence and knowledge now on how make and female bodies differ and how that impacts on fairness in sports.
I used to play cricket, rugby, softball, some league, and a few other things – basically to provide a point to exercising that wasn't the equivalent of doing yoga looking at a blank wall.
Then I went into the army and that gave even more of a point to why to exercise.
Competitive sports just bore the hell out of me. They seem completely pointless. Doing a couch potato or being a spectator of competitive sports has always seemed to me to be the most useless form of vicarious drooling by simpletons that I could possibly imagine.
Personally I'd be just as happy to ban competitive sports altogether and get rid of this idiotic issue that way.
However, mu view on this that I have kind of noticed that there a considerable range of abilities and basic body conformation even within a single gender and some large overlaps between genders. After all if you have short male legs, then you're going to be outclassed by long female ones. I’ve seen people who have no obvious physical abilities run self-professed athletes into the ground by what looks like pure determination.
It just becomes the luck of genetics either way. Seems a silly thing to compete over a the toss of luck from your ancestral progenitors and the vagaries yours and their upbringing.
In my mixed training and eventual military unit (I was a medic) both the laggards and front-runners were invariably mixed genders. I remember one escape and evasion exercise over the mountains behind Tolaga Bay where I damn near had to dragged up some sections by some very fit women who'd just finished yomping all over the Southern Alps. Then I was pretty damn fit – but not in their league.
Doing that kind of thing in your 20s cures a lot of delusions that many still seem to have about human variability.
"and some large overlaps between the genders." I prent.
Here's a link (Radio NZ) to what sports scienctist Ross Tucker says about the difference of men and women in sports.
A short snippert is about women runners, but there is also some stuff about trans women playing rugby with women and injuries. Tucker was employed by the Rugby World Federation to tease out the issues of transwomen playing rugby.
The fastest women in the world can be beaten by the 10,000 fastest male runners, including boys as young a 14years. Men have bigger hearts, lungs more haemoglobin, flex muscles and many other advantages in sport.
Not that sport is a rather stupid thing to be concerned about? Essentially a useless artificial concept that largely seems to be invented by shysters to make money from?
Of that the 10,000 fastest males runners can also out perform the majority of the male population as well as the majority of the female population? Not to mention all horses who can out run all human runners except for marathon runners.
Or that old age will eventually enable almost all 20yo women to out run the fastest male runners in their 80s.
It is a completely artificial and essentially meaningless battle ground that you appear to be choosing. Makes it really really hard to see how it has any relevance apart from being a place to run a PR campaign on.
Ultimately everyone winds up having to deal with the hand that luck and genetics handed out to them. I hardly think that sport is a battleground worth wasting time on. After all if you can’t be the fastest runner and you want to be competitive – then simply pick something where you have an advantage. Become a top tunnel crawler or extremely long distance walker. Or become a computer programmer or a graphic artist and go and do something that has less genetics in it.
You appear to be picking a battleground for PR purposes. That is what appears to me to be the main thing that is relevant in this part of the 'debate'. Probably because there aren’t any useful arguments outside of something ridiculous like sport?
You appear to be picking a battleground for PR purposes.
I'm guessing – because as a male I'm underqualified to say much – is that GC's have a wide range of social concerns, but the sports element is both concrete and measureable – and it's obvious cheating. This is something most ordinary people, many of whom do enjoy sport, can understand.
If you were running a campaign it would be negligent to set aside your most obvious plank. A bit like a Labour campaign that neglected to mention say – class.
"You appear to be picking a battleground for PR purposes. That is what appears to me to be the main thing that is relevant in this part of the 'debate'. Probably because there aren’t any useful arguments outside of something ridiculous like sport?"
Strangely enough, in NZ, the inherent unfairness of biological males competing in female categories, does have broader traction where the discussion of the protection of female-only spaces does not.
As for the last sentence, only someone who has not bothered getting informed on the issue would have the gall to write that sentence. I suggest you may want to read some of the other posts on this issue, or get information from somewhere other than your personal experience.
Yes, and Serena Williams is quite open about that.
Does it thus make it fair for male bodied individuals to compete against non male bodied people. And should you call it 'female sport' then, rather tehn 'mixed gender'.
That would be my preference, and i don't care about sport one bit tbh.
Female – only natal females
mixed gender – transwomen, transmen, non binaries of all genders, natal men / women and anyone else i might not know exits or will exist in the future.
Male – only natal males
That be in the too hard basket? Or is it just that the two baskets of funds – 1 for male sport and 1 for female sport would be better spend on 1 for male sport and 1 for transwomens sport, and non males and non transwomen just go stay home and forget about having sports teams and games, after all any boy can beat them at it?
However, mu view on this that I have kind of noticed that there a considerable range of abilities and basic body conformation even within a single gender and some large overlaps between genders. After all if you have short male legs, then you're going to be outclassed by long female ones. I’ve seen people who have no obvious physical abilities run self-professed athletes into the ground by what looks like pure determination.
funnily enough, when you look at the range of physical abilities they still track distinctly differently for males and females. This is the basis of why we have women's sport in the first place.
It's also the basis of why we have female only spaces. If, on average, the range of physical abilities of women matched that of men, then we (women) would have put a stop a long time ago to rape and other kinds of violence by men against women.
There's a large body of evidence on this from medical and sports science, and a *lot of analysis in recent years, that points to distinct differences based in biology.
I'll look for a better link later (especially the one about running, leg length and the other factors that affect one's ability to run fast) but in the meantime, this from 2010,
It appears that gender gaps in sport performance have been stable for a long time: women may never catch up with men. This stabilization of 26 years is the expression of a significant drop in the variation of these gaps' magnitude. After a significant narrowing of gender gaps, women and men now evolve in parallel, in the same direction. The late implication of women in competition, their increasing participation, as well as the individual doping behaviours and state programs for performance enhancement may all have had a historical role but no longer reduce the gap. Without any technological improvement specifically dedicated to one gender or the other, performances will probably evolve in a similar manner for both men and women. The gap may be set.
funnily enough, when you look at the range of physical abilities they still track distinctly differently for males and females. This is the basis of why we have women's sport in the first place.
Sure. For all of that. However it is an overlapping set of distributions. Even more so when you start removing the age restrictions and the way that the people arguing it seem to selectively pick the comparing where there is the most difference (ie the anatomical cervical difference).
However that wasn't what I was arguing. What I was arguing was that sport is stupid social space to run this argument in.
After almost no-one can out-compete top athletes of any gender and most of us don't bother trying to compete. I can pretty well guarantee that even when I was at my most fit, that I could have never competed with top female athletes.
If you want to argue for female only spaces, then why bothering using the daftness of sport to mount the 'debate' on. Great place if you want to highlight the vast range of human variability and gratuitous elitism. Or the vagaries of national or regional dietary patterns in childhood.
You could just as easily equally argue that there should be sports restricted to skinny people with short legs to ensure competitiveness for short legged people. Or restricted to people who mainly eat rice. Or that there should be different competitions for those whose genetic background is from near to the equator rather than higher latitudes.
All of those have different distributions in all of the same facets that you and Anker have been pointing out. That is why I find this particular line of argument so irritating – it isn't about anything important except to the individuals who are involved in sport. Which is a tiny elitist minority in the world population, even if you count in their slobbering couch potato fans. As I keep pointing out is is a matter of pure genetic luck and which society in which era that a individual and their grandmother grew up in (the egg formation argument). Essentially a matter of luck.
I have no problem with the concept of female only spaces. But so far I'm seeing bugger all arguments about why they're more of a priority than something useful like shifting the legal and social structures to remove glass ceilings or the obvious gender discrimination in career paths or the antique attitude that marriage is a licence to rape within the institution.
So far from what I have seen is a series of complaints with no particular explanations about why females only spaces something that really necessary for the future of any of our societies.
Basically it sounds like someone just trying to re-create the female equivalent of 19th century upper-class gentleman's club. Which were primarily founded as way to avoid child care and insider trading as far as I can see.
Where to start IPrent… did you read Ross Tuckers article? Do you understand that women could face significant injuries if trans women compete with them? Sport, particularly competitive sport may not be important to you, but competing at elite level is important to some and most of us follow some sport/Olympics. It’s about fairness and safety for women and girls.
I haven’t just post about sport I have posted about many other aspects of the imposition of gender ideology on women and girls.
'After almost no-one can out-compete top athletes of any gender and most of us don't bother trying to compete. I can pretty well guarantee that even when I was at my most fit, that I could have never competed with top female athletes.'
While not wanting to bring down the big, black, bold typeface of doom.
You're wrong about this.
You may think you're not wrong but you are wrong.
However whether you're right or wrong isn't the issue (you're wrong of course) but are you ok with boys deciding they're girls and taking college scholarships away from girls?
Basically as soon as puberty hits girls cannot compete physically, in most sports, with boys
You talk about shifting social structures but you don't seem bothered by girls being disadvantaged financially and with future educational prospects.
Very few seem to be bothered by it to be fair – which is why the non males sometimes come across as if their hair was at fire :).
Even that that point is a feature in this whole mess rather then a sad side effect.
It is costing women and girls awards, places of employment, places in sports competitions and the resources that come when one is a winning competitior, it is costing them the privacy and dignity of a place away from men while relieving themselves, while getting undressed, while needing a rape kit administered and wanting this to be done by a natal women rather then by a man who helds a sincere believe that he too is a women, while needing shelter and not wanting to share with male bodies, being called a pregnant mum to be rather tehn considered a walking inseminated incubator that is barely sentient and so on and so forth.
I pointed that out above, if there are two funds in sport (or anything else for that matter), Fund A is to fund sporting/education etc for boys and Fund B is to fund the same for Girls what changes when you replace Girls with Trans identified males? You appropriate both funds for the advancement of boys. It is the intended outcome.
You talk about shifting social structures but you don't seem bothered by girls being disadvantaged financially and with future educational prospects.
You really are being stupid today. That wasn't what I was arguing. What I was arguing was that sport is a bloody silly place to try and argue a law change from.
It is by definition an elitist area where 99% of the people who might want a opportunity of the type that you are touting simply by virtue of mere genetics, upbringing and opportunity cannot compete with others.
Doesn't matter if they XX or XY – the vast majority of people of any gender or sexual orientation cannot compete for financial rewards and future educational prospect (FFS – are you a Americian?) because they don't get the opportunity.
Don't you realise just how silly you sound? When you're talking something that would require legislative approval and apply across the whole population. That sounds like a real vote catcher – support the female elite in sports because they're better then everyone else apart from a few males.
So far I haven't seen anything that is capable of being brought into our current legislative framework. Or a reason for doing it that doesn’t stink of an underlying implied “I don’t like them – they smell” rationalisation. If it isn’t that, then there must be a explainable reason.
I have just been getting idiotic brushoffs like yours and lectures about sport.
Reads an awful lot like bigots and discrimination to me.
I remember one escape and evasion exercise over the mountains behind Tolaga Bay where I damn near had to dragged up some sections by some very fit women who'd just finished yomping all over the Southern Alps. Then I was pretty damn fit – but not in their league.
Having spent a chunk of my youth in the Southern Alps with women just like these – I can advise that the difference is that they tended to have more endurance over long days, while I had more speed and strength in the very rough terrain.
Yep. I can open tight lids far better than my female partner. But then again so can any lever.
Reminds me – I should go and buy her the general purpose jar and bottle top opener. I have better things to use my fingers for. And for the single-minded amongst readers – they mostly involve using keyboards into my old age.
Last I looked bottle opening was not an Olympic sport, or any sport for that matter. (Happy to be proven wrong, nothing is too weird for the world we live in.)
Nor is sport confined to just the elites as you imply, people of all ages and ability get a great deal out of it. They enjoy competing because almost all sports are carefully organised by sex, age, weight, classes and skill divisions to ensure everyone has some chance of succeeding.
There's almost as much fun to be had winning a social game of touch as there is watching the AB's bring home a World Cup. But no-one would be interested in watching an AB team crush a bunch of social players.
And this doesn't apply to just sports – there is for example a reason why we don't ask five year old's to sit Stage 3 Math exams.
Sure and I used to like sports almost as much as books when I was younger. They were pretty non-competitive amongst the kids – the most competitive were generally the parents getting their vicarious thrills.
However I have also seen way too much discrimination in sports because of the habit of micro-slotting. It is why women's rugby took so long to take off. It simply wasn't an option in the league. Changed now. But most of the changes you're describing kick in post-pubescent. We used to have some truly evil female backs in pickup games back when I was a kid.
Women's cricket or woman being on cricket teams seems to be sparse as well, and that is a sport that is almost entirely technique and practice.
However every example I have seen offered about sport (apart from your one) offered so far referred to elite sports. And what I was arguing was that sports elite or otherwise are bloody stupid place to argue a legal principle on.
Which is a extremely small microcosm in society and using that as a basis for
To take en extreme example, it would be the exact equivalent of arguing that women should have several free turns in inter spousal violence because most (but not all) women are smaller than their male spouses. Regardless that the female perp is an expert in martial arts and their spouse crawls in a ball with anxiety at any form of conflict.
Such is the diversity of humans when you stop looking shallowly at means and ignoring distributions.
You really can't make legislation based on something like that outside of small children. We don't have many weird loophole exceptions like that left in our current legislation.
"to provide a point to exercising that wasn't the equivalent of doing yoga looking at a blank wall."
That is exactly why competitive sports are useful.
It is interesting too that my who wife was a competitive swimmer/diver can't get her head around team sports. Even going for a walk she slips into a mode of no-one else exists and she walks at her own pace.
I on the other hand as a soccer/cricket/rugby player can't get used to doing something without others e.g. running by yourself.
Whether this is a natural genetic variation which is why we were drawn to our specific sports in the first place or conditioning from years of participation or a combination of both would be interesting.
A town chosen at random. If that city wanted all the eyes of the world on it, having a tournament with a competitor in a women's event 'looking masculine' would achieve that.
And of course many who've never had anything to do with sport, participating, organising or administering, would be into it. All of a sudden sports would be be= the centre of their universe along with Nelson a place they've never had a thought about previously.
If gender is a social construct (a view I'm happy to agree with), then how can anyone possibly be transgender?
To be transgender would entail moving from one gender (by transgender logic, from a somewhat 'fixed' or definable reality) to another somewhat 'fixed' or definable reality. On the other hand, if gender is held to be nowt but a social construct, then gender is whatever any person might decide gender will be for them.
Sex is another kettle of fish. As far as my very limited biological knowledge goes, sex is defined by the presence of xx and xy chromosomes. (No doubt there are additional criteria)
But anyway, does anyone really believe an archaeologist of the future will dig up someone's bones and puzzle over whether the bones are those of a female or a male?
I got a surprise doing some online Te Reo Maori lessons last year to learn that ia in Māori is the personal pronoun for either she or he – and probably applies just as well for any other invented gender someone odd might want to come up with.
We are so used to using he/him/his & she/her/hers (with a gender neutral it/its) in English & other European languages it seemed odd to use the same pronoun for both sexes, & English-speakers would naturally expect it to be confusing sometimes, but it clearly isn’t, and hasn’t been, any problem for Māori speakers for centuries.
Good news, something that was being talked about mid 2021 seems to have come to fruition.
…The braided river revival plan was announced by Environment Canterbury in November, with the Rangitata and Rakahuri/Ashley rivers the first to be incorporated into the new plan.
It was supported by Tumu Taiao, which provides advice to the council on interests of mana whenua.
Council principal adviser on braided rivers David Owen said a whole river approach was needed, and each river would have its own individual pathway.
"We've created the Braided River Revival/Whakahaumanu Ngā Awa ā Pākihi programme of work to align … the many river management responsibilities the council has … These include flood management, weed and pest control, biodiversity enhancement and recreational values through regional parks."
Owen said the rivers were rare internationally and New Zealand had some of the best examples of braided rivers in the world...
What's more, it has essentially facilitated the transfer of almost all the water in the river to title owned by just 35 farmers in the area. If Kiwis believe water in this country is a public resource, think again.
The ORC allocation debates ste a key reason Parker is stripping all TLAs of freshwater management.
The ORC is a pit of deeply corrupt bullies who have had several "please explain" letters from the Minister. They treated Marion Hobbs utterly disgracefully.
I will be particularly interested in how they they handle the Onslow project consents.
The Cluth tributaries have been utterly violated for a century.
It was mentioned here in an earlier post about an older guy, dressed in racing lycra riding a bike. I say good on him.
Being in my mid 70s now, I have found my confidence has grown as I have aged. Not sure if it's a common thing with the aging process, or some of us think what the hell, I'm doing this that or the other, regardless.
Having been very hesitant around water, when I reached my 6th decade I decided to learn to swim, through one on one lessons. Since then, I have been swimming at my local pool three days a week, not worrying what I look like in a swimsuit, despite everything heading south and some cellulite here and there. I can swim and that's all that matters to me. Whereas previously I wouldn't have been so brave as to be seen publicly in swimwear.
In the same decade I flew a Cessna aircraft, accompanied of course by a registered flying instructor, an amazing experience. My 60s began my time of challenge.
Now in my 7th decade, I feel more confidant than ever. I've always loved colours, but in the past I always wore colours that didn't make me stand out. However now I wear what I feel like wearing and to hell what anyone else thinks. I feel more comfortable and confident in my own (wrinkly) skin now than ever before. Most of all, I am enjoying being me. And I guess that's what the older Lycra clad guy on the bike was doing, being who he is and making the most of it.
He was showing me at xmas on his e-bike at how he'd had to change the height of his right side pedal by boring a new hole in the pedal crank. That was because his right knee wasn't flexing in a wide enough range to deal with pedal at the normal position.
He is due to head into hospital in a week or so get that knee sorted out. Then he will return the pedal to its usual position.
My comment was that he should fix the butchered crank because one with ruddy great hole drilled into it was freaking dangerous. He will probably ignore me as usual..
I think that e-bikes are just awesome for extending out the elderly rediscovery of the joy in life. They certainly are making my 60s more fun.
Thanks Lynn for sharing your dad's exercise story with his e-bike. I wish him well with his knee.
e-bikes are a great way to exercise outdoors, particularly for the elderly. I do envy people who cycle. I can't ride a bike anymore, due to a brain injury a few years back, which affected my balance and coordination. Instead I use an ancient rattly stationery bike, which works well, when I can't go walking outside on my non swimming days. Where there's a will, there's always a way for us "golden oldies to enjoy our lives."
Oh Mary_a, how relatable that story is. Confidence and acceptance of self and others = true freedom. Long may you enjoy life.
Your colour comment rang bells. I had many gifts from family and friends, furniture inherited as well, in greens and creams. I lived with them on and off for ten years. The travel and motorhome meant three years? of time spent in that scheme.
Then we redecorated with plum teal and gold. Just great. We love it. Should have done that earlier.
Given that Covid responses in country A tend, if successfully implemented, to flow on to countries B, C and D these days…
OTTAWA — The federal minister in charge of aid to the unemployed says jobless Canadians who refuse to get vaccinated may find themselves blocked from benefits so long as public health concerns remain top of mind.
The Liberals have tacked conditions onto a suite of benefit payments, saying none can go to workers who lose work or hours because they have refused to get vaccinated.
"It's shambolic, I tell you!" No, not the Natz in NZ this time, but Dr. Kerryn Phelps, Australia's first female AMA President, letting rip about the Australian Federal government's handling of the current Omicron outbreak (i.e. "let it rip"). Phelps is not concerned so much about Omicron's severity, or lack of it, but the fact that the government hasn't planned for the possibility that a very transmissible, vaccine evading variant could disrupt ordinary life so much as this one. Watch out, NZ as there are certainly lessons to be learned here to help mitigate the effects of the spread of Omicron when it inevitably leaks out of MIQ.
Yet the muppets among us are insisting Omicrom is a minor respiratory disease. That's just the mode of transmission.
What is Omicrom's effect on the vascular system, do other organs sustain the damage inflicted by prior versions, and what are the prospects of disability of unknown duration after even mild initial illness?
The vaccines went through months of monitored trials with tens of thousands of people with known exposures and nothing chronic for a year so far.
Omicron, we've basically had enough time to see 2 or three reproductive generations. Chronic conditions would still be indistinguishable from acute at this stage.
But if the least-worst-case of 2% of cases needing hospitalisation is even accurate, what does hitting 10k a day equal? In a week will they be getting 200 admissions a day? Victoria's not much bigger than NZ.
There is not a single country in the world further into the Omicron wave than Australia is, that is experiencing (or has experienced) a worrisome surge in hospital admissions driven by Omicron infection.
On vaccines – excess deaths for all causes bar Covid, spike in those injected in line with vaccination roll outs. Now, I guess that might have nothing to do with the injections, but someone somewhere would have to come up with a feasible explanation that applied across all the age groups that show up those excess deaths among the vaccinated.
You made a claim about vaccines and excess mortality. Untested or unidentified covid cases would be an obvious confounding factor, particularly in a country that used excel to tally test results.
Untested or unidentified covid cases would be an obvious confounding factor
All deaths within 28 days of a +ve test are marked down as Covid deaths. All hospital patients are tested for Covid. All corpses are currently tested for Covid. This "confounding factor" arises how or from where…?
And true to form, McFlock has no interest in actually looking at the scientific evidence, not even when it’s presented on a plate.
Dude, it's pretty simple. If vaccinations caused excess mortality, NZ would be the poster example to prove it.
All deaths within 28 days of a +ve test are marked down as Covid deaths. All hospital patients are tested for Covid. All corpses are currently tested for Covid. This "confounding factor" arises how or from where…?
Assuming all that is true, you have false negatives, deaths post-28 days, changing policies around testing and classification, and the aforementioned bureaucratic fuckups. Lots of nice things to fudge if someone has an agenda.
But NZ, none of that. Vaccine goes in, deaths go up… or not. Frankly, I'd love to see you try to mash this chart into this chart. I'm sure you're capable of those mental gymnastics.
As for your link, it was going to be a quarter hour of me being fucked off with their bullshit. They'd already set up a bunch of assumptions within a couple of minutes. I often have a quick look at your articles (which usually don't seem to say what you think they say), but your propaganda videos can go spin.
The vaccines went through months of monitored trials with tens of thousands of people with known exposures and nothing chronic for a year so far.
to be fair, people with chronic health conditions were excluded from trials, so we will need other ways of establishing long term reactions eg doing studies on specific cohorts that follow post-vax.
I'm also not yet convinced on the adverse reaction monitoring process. How do they separate out direct adverse reactions from flares and relapses from coincidental conditions and so on?
I'm also not yet convinced on the adverse reaction monitoring process. How do they separate out direct adverse reactions from flares and relapses from coincidental conditions and so on?
A large chunk of it is math that blows my mind, with some case investigations and figuring out biological causes if possible.
But mostly math, I think. We're not usually talking something as obvious as smoking and lung cancer (which has something like a 90% attributable risk rate).
It presents almost precisely as a cold – call it "Omicron cold" if you want. It does not infect lung tissue and therefor does not and cannot progress to pneumonia type symptoms as Delta could.
quote – In a potential clue regarding lower severity, they found that Omicron replication was less efficient in deeper lung tissue—more than 10 times lower than the original virus
that's not the same thing as "It does not infect lung tissue"
Actually, it kinda is. Presence and ability to infect are not the same thing.
a 3 log10 lower viral RNA load was detected in the lungs as compared to animals infected with D614G and no infectious virus was detectable in this organ
and..had a lower virus load in both the lower and upper respiratory tract. This is also reflected by less extensive inflammatory processes in the lungs.
The respiratory tract cleans, warms, and moistens air on its way to the lungs. The tract can be divided into an upper and a lower part. The upper part consists of the nose, nasal cavity, pharynx (throat), larynx, and upper part of the trachea (windpipe). The lower part consists of the lower part of the trachea, bronchi, and lungs (which contain bronchioles and alveoli).
Just in case you want to try operating on yourself one day, you might want to get the anatomy right.
And pneumonia is not something that occurs because of bronchial infection.
I will accept your medical judgement on that, for now. The omicron replication found in deep lung tissue I linked to earlier, that could cause pneumonia, though.
Grim because the hospitals are over-run with admissions because of Omicron? Or grim because any +ve cases have to isolate for a prescribed number of days and hospitals are short staffed as a result?
Covid. Australia has both delta and omicron currently.
One of the ways to prevent hospital overwhelm is to get covid positive staff to self isolate. So they don't spread covid to a) other staff and b) patients.
If they don't protect staff, they're more likely to get covid, and more likely to need time off work. Vicious cycle. Longer term, there are issues of long covid.
Suggesting that they should let covid rip in hospitals is next level. I guess the 'protect the vulnerable' thing doesn't apply any more.
Honestly, I think you don't actually know what public health is.
One of the ways to prevent hospital overwhelm is to get covid positive staff to self isolate
Obviously not.
Isolation rules were set for Delta, and Omicron, besides being very mild by comparison, has a far shorter period of infection than Delta. I don't know what the isolation time in Australia is, but the UK (previously hammered by their "pingdemic) and the US are chopping theirs in half – which some might argue is cynical I guess.
And again. You really do need to fuck the fuck right off with these lies you keep repeating around what I think, suggest or believe.
Long covid. Your comments are often arguments that omicron is mild, and that we should let it take over from delta. We don't know the rate of long covid from omicron yet. Denial here doesn't mean you don't believe it is a thing, it's the ongoing analysis that ignores it/doesn't take it into account.
Letting it rip. If you don't mean we should do that, then just say what you do mean. Pretty sure we've been round this before and you didn't clarify that time either. You appear to argue that in NZ we should let covid take over from delta. I assume you mean by allowing community transmission (because this seems to fit with your general position on covid). If it's not, then just say what your actual position is. How would omicron be allowed to take over from delta without community transmission?
Your comments are often arguments that omicron is mild
It is.
that we should let it take over from delta
Of course we should!
We don't know the rate of long covid from omicron yet
And we don't know the effects of long covid from Delta.
You appear to argue that in NZ we should let covid take over from delta
Yes.
I assume you mean by allowing community transmission
From the apparent infectiousness of Omicron, I wouldn't think there's much in the way of "allowing" community spread. There will be community spread and "the Public Health experts" ought to put in place whatever protections for the vulnerable that they deem fit. ( So expect zero messaging beyond "vaccinate")
that doesn't answer the question though. We do in fact keep omicron out currently by a raft of measures. You haven't said which if any we should retain. The implication I've taken from your comments is that we shouldn't try and constrain it, instead allow it into the community and protect vulnerable people. I'm asking you to explain what that would look like in detail eg borders opened? No MiQ? No vax pass or neg test on planes? No traffic light system? No scanning/signing in? What?
Why would people with Omicron be kept in MIQ if it's endemic?
Vaccine passports are only there as a foot through the door for wider surveillance. They should never have been introduced in the first instance – they were a political decision, not a public health one.
The traffic light system is a downright farce from a medical perspective, and if you had read the links in the comment you saw fit to derail before, you'd already know that Pfizer is involved in the Chinese traffic light system that we are probably 'meant' to be transitioned to – where instead of physical locations/areas being red/orange or green, an individual's pass turns green/red/orange and their movement restricted accordingly (by dint of scanning/signing in, which will be augmented by people physically checking a persons phone bound status if scanning appears to be being by-passed )
In the absence of direct answers to my question, I will infer the following (and really, if you want me to stop guessing what you mean, you will have to actually say),
you want MiQ to end
you want all vaccine passes to end
you want the traffic light system to end
If that isn't a let it rip strategy I don't know what is. I guess you haven't said what you want to happen at the borders, but this is the point: you believe something about omicron solving the pandemic and that we should just protect vulnerable people, but there's no actual real life basis to what you think we should be doing differently.
For instance, we still have delta in the community. Removing MiQ would lead to people dying, people getting long covid, and probably the health system being overrun and all the flow on effects from that including short, medium and long term impact on health care workers.
If you have a theory about how to let omicron become endemic (it's not endemic in NZ, we don't have any cases in the community yet), then maybe say what that is, because otherwise I'm going with 'let it rip and vulnerable people can look after themselves*'. It's a pretty natural conclusion from what you are saying.
Yes, there are important, multiple issues about government overreach that need addressing as well.
So isolate those known to have Delta for the mandatory 10 days or whatever it is, and have a shorter term of isolation for Omicron – ie, follow the science.
Funnily enough, I trust public health experts to understand how hospitals work in a pandemic situation. You believe that omicron is relatively harmless (doesn't kill anyone, is just a cold). Public health by definition has to be conservative.
you just said that omicron doesn't infect the lungs (quote: … It does not infect lung tissue…) and McFlock put up a link showing that it does.
if you mean that omicron infects the lungs to a much lesser degree, than say that. Because otherwise what you are saying sounds like a nonsense and in the absence of you providing source material it's just a bunch of FB reckons.
One reason that this matters, from a public health perspective, is that we still may have a shit load of people with serious infections from omicron despite it being less severe. More people being infected with a less severe illness still means a lot of people with severe illness. When they say less severe they're not saying less severe for everyone.
There is zero data from any country further through the Omicron wave than Australia showing " a shit load of people with serious infections from omicron"
To reiterate, presence is not the same as infection. The links and what-not are in the principle response to that confusion between a presence being detected and infection being detected.
NSW nursing staff who are Covid positive are working alongside those who are still not infected and their patients because of staff shortages. This is the result of the effects of the surge in Omicron infection that has overwhelmed NSW Health. The article that was linked to refers to a lack of prior planning for such an eventuality and does not explore just how severe Omicron is compared to Delta. As Weka points out, both Delta and Omicron are circulating together (in all Australian states apart from WA). This would also be the situation in NZ if Omicron leaked out.
This would also be the situation in NZ if Omicron leaked out.
Would it? What are the current Delta numbers, bearing in mind that Omicron displaces Delta.
Just a guess, but assuming NZs Public Health wallahs have already taken necessary protective measures for the vulnerable amongst us, then Omicron would spread far faster and wider than Delta supplying everyone it touched with immunity to any remaining Delta.
I thought from previous comments you were touting yourself as somewhat of an expert on public health, no?
Double vaccination does not a lot. We know that. If the idea is have vulnerable people triple jabbed, then contingent on the time from when they received their second injection, they ought to be offered a third.
And (of course the stuff the wallahs have no interest in this) get the info on Vit D and other simple, and hitherto unmessaged, protective measures out there.
You assert that. Meanwhile, actual public health experts have explained in what ways double vaccination helps protect people and the population from covid. Double vaccination helps protect from delta and this protection wanes over time.
I guess there's some semantic arse covering in 'not a lot', but it's just ridiculous to argue that vaccination doesn't help. We wouldn't swap from delta to omicron overnight.
If the idea is have vulnerable people triple jabbed, then contingent on the time from when they received their second injection, they ought to be offered a third.
And (of course the stuff the wallahs have no interest in this) get the info on Vit D and other simple, and hitherto unmessaged, protective measures out there.
Triple jabbed – do you mean the booster or the third vax?
We know that vaccination is imperfect. So rather than protecting vulnerable people from exposure, you seem to be arguing that we should let them be exposed and take their chances with the imperfect vaccine and waning immunity.
What's the deal with the 6 months between second vax and booster, given the proposed switch from delta to omicron? What do you suggest in the meantime?
And how would we protect everyone that need protection (assuming we could even figure out who that is) when not everyone gets boostered or 3rd vax at the same time?
and other simple, and hitherto unmessaged, protective measures out there.
You assert that (Double vaccination does not a lot). Meanwhile…
No. Again. The studies. Read the studies. Look at the research. I'm not simply "asserting" anything. Double vaccination and protection from Omicron isn't much of an anything – it waltzes past.
Booster and triple jabbed are one and the same thing, no? 3x Pfizer.
Other protective measures might include (but would not be limited to) zinc, Vit D, Vit K2..and where relevant,losing weight, cutting down sugar intake, getting good rest/sleep, generally eating healthier.
And if the science had been followed, ivermectin would be available and worth taking as either a preventative medicine or to lessen effects upon infection. But, y'know, "horse paste" and a whelter of other propaganda/misinformation leading up to it being essentially banned in NZ in spite of its efficacy in place like Uttar Pradesh and (arguably) Japan.
I don't know if it's permitted in NZ, but hydroxychloroquine with zinc has been shown to help if given in the early stages of infection (But again, propaganda and deliberately sabotaged trials has left that one largely off the table)
Absent both ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, there are still multiple fronts aside from injections and physical measures that people could be alerted to and encouraged on.
No. Again. The studies. Read the studies. Look at the research. I'm not simply "asserting" anything. Double vaccination and protection from Omicron isn't much of an anything – it waltzes past.
We still have delta. So does Australia. Omicron doesn't take over one night, we would have a period of time where we have both.
Booster and triple jabbed are one and the same thing, no? 3x Pfizer.
From what I can tell it's the same drug but the timing is quite different. The timing matters a great deal.
Other protective measures might include (but would not be limited to) zinc, Vit D, Vit K2..and where relevant,losing weight, cutting down sugar intake, getting good rest/sleep, generally eating healthier.
And for the people that can't do those things? You know, poor people, Māori, disabled people. I mean, I'm all for it, and have actively practiced this for decades.
But you can't get the population of a country to good natural immune status just like that. It takes time. Someone who has been living on white bread and coke for the past ten years isn't going to suddenly get strong immunity by eating healthier in the next month. Every little bit helps of course, but getting the kind of full nutritional status you are talking about is a process. And it depends on the gut functioning of the person as well if they can even absorb enough nutrients.
Lots of people cannot afford the kind of diet that makes a difference, or don't have the skills at managing that (eg cooking, knowing what to buy).
Many people have insomnia and other sleep disturbances that aren't easily addressed by 'getting good rest/sleep'. Many people use stimulants like sugar and coffee to keep themselves going and if they stop that suddenly it causes stress (psychological and physiological).
All the things you suggest there should be happening, but they're not and getting them to happen would be a long term plan.
Advocating personal responsibility during a public health crisis is hugely problematic politically if that is accompanied by advocating for less collective measures. At this point anyone able to do that kind of self care has to be on top of the public health response, not instead of. Because of vulnerable people.
How do I know this? Because I've spent decades in communities of people outside the mainstream who do exactly what you are saying to manage their health, myself included. Many of those people are also alternative health practitioners with training in their own fields and how our bodies work in a western medical frame. And they mostly said from early in the pandemic: do all the self care things that help but this alone will not protect you adequately from covid, get vaccinated as well for best protection. This is people in countries that had major covid early on alongside hospital overrun. And they're still saying that.
And if the science had been followed, ivermectin would be available and worth taking as either a preventative medicine or to lessen effects upon infection. But, y'know, "horse paste" and a whelter of other propaganda/misinformation leading up to it being essentially banned in NZ in spite of its efficacy in place like Uttar Pradesh and (arguably) Japan.
I don't know if it's permitted in NZ, but hydroxychloroquine with zinc has been shown to help if given in the early stages of infection (But again, propaganda and deliberately sabotaged trials has left that one largely off the table)
Absent both ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, there are still multiple fronts aside from injections and physical measures that people could be alerted to and encouraged on.
Sure, but we don't have those trials done, so why are you bringing this up in a conversation about how vulnerable people can be protected now, given you are advocating letting covid into the community now (delta and omicron)?
It's worth clarifying here that I see covid vaccination as a personal choice, and what I am talking about above is collective responsibility. This is what public health does, it protects the collective. Lots of flaws in how it does that, but that is its purpose.
I find much of the push back against the government's pandemic response to be libertarian, and this has as many political problems as liberals' acceptance of authoritarianism.
If the basis of let 'omicron naturalise' is personal responsibility and freedom, then that undermines socialism in ways that need to be debated as much as surveillance issues from the authoritarian state.
Public health has protected many of us for a long time, we shouldn't give that up so casually.
Double jabs together with other public health measures plus TTIQ protect against infection by Delta and severe Omicron effects, but Omicron's surge means an all round ramped up approach – more pro-active public health measures (distancing, masks, restrictions on crowds), free access to RATs for testing and boosters. These are the things that should have been planned for in the Oz states that have enthusiastically reduced restrictions and haven't been. NZ's delay on border opening hopefully should allow NZ's MOH and politicians not to follow the mess Oz (and other countries) are in. The mess here is not caused by Project Fear or whatever you have called it, but libertarian politicians sidelining health and scientific advice and misjudging the latest phase of the pandemic.
Hard to see how the Feb border opening can happen given how little we still know. I guess if omicron is already in the community and spreading by then it will be an easier decision to make.
Authoritarianism is not the best way to deal with a public health emergency.
Turns out there is research about this.
The link above is a discussion between doctors Vinay Prasad and Zeb Janrozik. The second is also a medical ethicist whose specialist area is public health in managing infectious diseases. He argues that evidence shows that respect, and treating people as adults, yields superior results.
It is worth noting that both have also worked as doctors in hospitals during the crisis.
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New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
The Government’s newly announced review of methane emissions reduction targets hints at its desire to delay Aotearoa New Zealand’s urgent transition to a climate safe future, the Green Party said. ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order. “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today. I am delighted ...
The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions. “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says. “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today. “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale. “It is good ...
The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. “Our coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
“China remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,” Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Government’s support for the revitalisation the sector. "New Zealand’s wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
The Government is making legislative changes to make it easier for new early learning services to be established, and for existing services to operate, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. The changes involve repealing the network approval provisions that apply when someone wants to establish a new early learning service, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra In the free-for-all between the Australian government and Big Tech boss Elon Musk this week, the government had to be on a winner. Most people would have little sympathy with Musk’s vociferous opposition to ...
Asia Pacific Report Chief Mandla Mandela, a member of the National Assembly of South Africa and Nelson Mandela’s grandson, has joined the Freedom Flotilla in istanbul as the ships prepare to sail for Gaza, reports Kia Ora Gaza. Mandela is also the ambassador for the Global Campaign to Return to ...
Pacific Media Watch Journalists who report on environmental issues are encountering growing difficulties in many parts of the world, reports Reporters Without Borders. According to the tally kept by RSF, 200 journalists have been subjected to threats and physical violence, including murder, in the past 10 years because they were ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards, Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)Political scientist, Dr Bryce Edwards. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has surprised everyone with his ruthlessness in sacking two of his ministers from their crucial portfolios. Removing ministers for poor performance after only five months in the job just doesn’t normally happen in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Hawkins, Senior Lecturer, Canberra School of Politics, Economics and Society, University of Canberra BagzhanSadvakassov/Upsplash, CC BY-SA Australia’s inflation rate has fallen for the fifth successive quarter, and it’s now less than half of what it was back in late 2022. ...
ACT's Rural Communities and Veterans spokesman Mark Cameron responds to cancellations and protests of ANZAC Day commemorations in Wellington. He says, "These pitiful attempts to detract from ANZAC Day are not at all indicative of the feelings of mainstream ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Meighen McCrae, Associate Professor of Strategic & Defence Studies, Australian National University American and Australian stretcher bearers working together near the front line during the Battle of Hamel in 1918.Australian War Memorial While the AUKUS alliance is new, the Australian-American partnership ...
Pōneke based peace activists staged a silent protest at the ANZAC day service to highlight New Zealand’s complicity in war and genocide, and urge the government to take concrete steps to stop the genocide in Palestine. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Magdalena M.E. Bunbury, Postdoctoral Researcher, James Cook University Burial with a horse at the Rákóczifalva site, Hungary (8th century AD).Sándor Hegedűs, Hungarian National Museum, CC BY How do we understand past societies? For centuries, our main sources of information have been ...
Amanda Thompson doesn’t really do Anzac Day. But what she does do is remember the people she knew who had a lifetime to remember stuff they didn’t really want to, because of a war they didn’t ask for. And she does make Anzac biscuits.First published in 2021.All my ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kathryn Willis, Postdoctoral Researcher, CSIRO Xavier Boulenger/Shutterstock In the two decades to 2019, global plastic production doubled. By 2040, plastic manufacturing and processing could consume as much as 20% of global oil production and use up 15% of the annual carbon ...
With our collective remembrance, and steadfast belief in our common humanity, we strengthen our hope and resolve to do what we can to foster dialogue and understanding, and to heal divisions in our pursuit of peace. ...
Principal reasons for the opposition is the loss of the public’s democratic right to have “a fair say” and the vital need for a government free from corruption, said Casey Cravens of Dunedin, president of the New Zealand Federation of Freshwater ...
Never mind the scoreboard – in the 2000 Bledisloe Cup decider, the real trans-Tasman battle was won before kickoff.First published in 2016. The dawn of the new millennium was a dark time for the All Blacks. Their final game pre-Y2K was a 22-18 loss to South Africa in the ...
I’m on the wrong side of 40, I never pursued creative work and now my job is killing my soul. Help! Want Hera’s help? Email your problem to helpme@thespinoff.co.nzDear Hera,May I start with the least original conversation opener you’re likely to hear around the motu at the moment, particularly in Wellington: ...
“Never again - No AUKUS” was the message of the wreath laid at this morning’s national ANZAC Day commemorative service at Pukeahu National War Memorial Park this morning by the Stop AUKUS group. ...
Until this month, Auckland swimmer Hazel Ouwehand had never met a qualifying time in an Olympic event for a New Zealand team, even as a junior. Now she’s very likely off to the Paris Olympics after swimming well under the qualifying standard in the 100m butterfly twice – both in ...
While Anzac Day has experienced a resurgence in recent years, our other day of remembrance has slowly faded from view.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand. Original illustrations by Hope McConnell.First published in 2022.The high school’s head girl and ...
Australian and New Zealand volunteers fought together in the Waikato War, yet still its place in the Anzac tradition is unacknowledged by our defence forces or Returned Services Association.First published in 2018.When I was a boy cub I attended Anzac Day services in the South Auckland suburb of ...
A poem by Wellington writer Tayi Tibble.Hoki Mai She kisses him goodbye with her eyes still wet and alight from their last swim in the Awatere river. At the train station celebration, she leads the Kapa Haka but her voice keeps breaking under and over itself like waves. ...
A poem from Bill Manhire’s 2017 book of verse Some Things to Place in a Coffin.My World War I Poem Inside each trench, the sound of prayer. Inside each prayer, the sound of digging. Image courtesy of Auckland War Memorial Museum. ...
There are three books I have wolfed down in one sitting over the last two years. Colleen Maria Lenihan’s gorgeous and sad debut Kōhine, Noelle McCarthy’s memoir Grand about becoming her mother and then unbecoming her, and now Hine Toa, a staunch yet gentle self-portrait by living legend Ngāhuia te ...
Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[quiz],DIV[quiz],A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp'); Got a good quiz question?Send Newsroom your questions. The post Newsroom daily quiz, Thursday 25 April appeared first on Newsroom. ...
Asia Pacific Report Students and activist staff at Australia’s University of Sydney (USyd) have set up a Gaza solidarity encampment in support of Palestinians and similar student-led protests in the United States. The camp was pitched as mass graves, crippled hospitals, thousands of civilian deaths and the near-total destruction of ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James B. Dorey, Lecturer in Biological Sciences, University of Wollongong Australian teddy bear bees are cute and fluffy, but get a look at that massive (unbarbed) stinger! James Dorey Photography Most of us have been stung by a bee and we ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jen Roberts, Senior Lecturer, School of Humanities and Social Inquiry, University of Wollongong Aussie~mobs/FlickrVictor Farr, a private in the 1st Infantry Battalion, was among the first to land at Anzac Cove just before dawn on April 25 1915. Victor Farr ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gregory Moore, Senior Research Associate, School of Ecosystem and Forest Sciences, The University of Melbourne Gregory Moore I had the good fortune to care for the sugar gum at The University of Melbourne’s Burnley Gardens in Victoria where I worked for ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Hawkins, Senior Lecturer, Canberra School of Politics, Economics and Society, University of Canberra BagzhanSadvakassov/Upsplash, CC BY-SA Australia’s inflation rate has fallen for the fifth successive quarter, and it’s now less than half of what it was back in late 2022. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rachel Ong ViforJ, ARC Future Fellow & Professor of Economics, Curtin University Just when we think the price of rentals could not get any worse, this week’s Rental Affordability Snapshot by Anglicare has revealed low-income Australians are facing a housing crisis like ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Meighen McCrae, Associate Professor of Strategic & Defence Studies, Australian National University American and Australian stretcher bearers working together near the front line during the Battle of Hamel in 1918.Australian War Memorial While the AUKUS alliance is new, the Australian-American partnership ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tracey Holmes, Professorial Fellow in Sport, University of Canberra When the news broke last weekend that 23 Chinese swimmers had tested positive to a banned drug in early 2021 and were allowed to compete at the Tokyo Olympic Games six months later ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Cally Jetta, Senior Lecturer and Academic Lead; College for First Nations, University of Southern Queensland Australian War MemorialAboriginal and Torres Strait Islander readers are advised this article contains names and images of deceased people, as well as sensitive historical information ...
RNZ News Melissa Lee has been ousted from New Zealand’s coalition cabinet and stripped of the Media portfolio, and Penny Simmonds has lost the Disability Issues portfolio in a reshuffle. Climate Change and Revenue Minister Simon Watts will take Lee’s spot in cabinet. Simmonds was a minister outside of cabinet. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Lindenmayer, Professor, Fenner School of Environment and Society, Australian National University laurello/Shutterstock Some reports and popular books, such as Bill Gammage’s Biggest Estate on Earth, have argued that extensive areas of Australia’s forests were kept open through frequent burning by ...
Analysis - Christopher Luxon framing the demotion of two ministers as the portfolios getting "too complex" is a charitable way of saying they weren't up to the job. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra With Jim Chalmers’s third budget on May 14, Australians will be looking for some more cost-of-living relief – beyond the tax cuts – although they have been warned extra measures will be modest. As ...
Analysis: Melissa Lee has lost the media portfolio and her spot in Cabinet after multiple failed attempts to find solutions for a media industry in crisis. On Wednesday, the Prime Minister announced Lee would be losing her spot in Cabinet along with her media and communications ministerial portfolio. The job ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Simon Wilmot, Senior Lecturer, Film, Deakin University Among the many Australian who served during the second world war, there is a small group of people whose stories remain largely untold. These are the Muslim men and women who, while small in number, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kelly Saunders, PhD Candidate, University of Canberra There has been much analysis and praise of Justice Michael Lee’s recent judgement in Bruce Lehrmann’s defamation case against Channel Ten. Many people were openly relieved to read Lee’s “forensic” and “nuanced” application of law ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kathy Gibbs, Program Director for the Bachelor of Education, Griffith University zEdward_Indy/Shutterstock Around one in 20 people has attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). It’s one of the most common neurodevelopmental disorders in childhood and often continues into adulthood. ADHD is diagnosed ...
The Fairer Future coalition of anti-poverty groups say Whaikaha must be properly funded going forward, and that to argue that poor financial management of the new Ministry is a red herring by the Prime Minister. ...
The Taxpayers’ Union is today congratulating Hon. Paul Goldsmith on his appointment as Minister for Media and Communications and urges him to rule out state intervention in the private media sector. ...
Asia Pacific Report The West Papuan resistance OPM leader has condemned Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and US President Joe Biden, accusing their countries of “six decades of treachery” over Papuan independence. The open letter was released today by OPM chairman Jeffrey P Bomanak on the eve of ANZAC Day ...
Welcome to The Spinoff Books Confessional, in which we get to know the reading habits and quirks of New Zealanders at large. This week: writer and one of Time Magazine’s 100 most influential people of 2024, Lauren Groff.The book I wish I’d writtenIf I wish I’d written a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Fechner, Research Fellow, Social Marketing, Griffith University mavo/Shutterstock Imagine having dinner at a restaurant. The menu offers plant-based meat alternatives made mostly from vegetables, mushrooms, legumes and wheat that mimic meat in taste, texture and smell. Despite being given that ...
“Three Strikes is a dead-end policy proposed by a dead-end government. The Three Strikes law ignores the causes of crime, instead just brutalising people already crushed by the cost of living.” ...
By Don Wiseman, RNZ Pacific senior journalist An Australian-born judge in Kiribati could well face deportation later this week after a tribunal ruling that he should be removed from his post. The tribunal’s report has just been tabled in the Kiribati Parliament and is due to be debated by MPs ...
With its clear mandate for police use, political nuances, and nuanced public trust, Denmark's insights provide valuable considerations for Australia and New Zealand. ...
Books editor Claire Mabey reviews poet Louise Wallace’s debut novel. A famous poet once said to me that he’s always suspicious when a poet publishes a novel. I never really understood why but maybe it’s something to do with cheating on your first form. Louise Wallace is a poet. She’s ...
For a few months at the turn of the millennium, TrueBliss burned bright as the biggest pop stars in the country. Alex Casey chats to two superfans who still hold the flame. During a humble backyard wedding in Nelson, 1999, one of the cordially invited guests had to excuse themselves ...
How will the recent wave of job cuts impact ethnic diversity in the media? In November last year, I was working a very busy day in the newsroom of a large online news site, interviewing whānau about their concerns over the imminent closure of one of the few puna reo ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ruth Knight, Researcher, Queensland University of Technology Have you ever felt sick at work? Perhaps you had food poisoning or the flu. Your belly hurt, or you felt tired, making it hard to concentrate and be productive. How likely would you be ...
Despite heavy criticism and an ongoing select committee process, the Police Minister says the Government will forge ahead with a ban on gang patches. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sam Whiting, Lecturer – Creative Industries, University of South Australia Shutterstock Everyone has a favourite band, or a favourite composer, or a favourite song. There is some music which speaks to you, deeply; and other music which might be the current ...
A new survey says ‘outlook not great’ for those charged with building infrastructure, while RMA changes delight farmers and depress environmentalists, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. First RMA changes announced ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Olli Hellmann, Associate Professor of Political Science, University of Waikato Getty Images When New Zealanders commemorate Anzac Day on April 25, it’s not only to honour the soldiers who lost their lives in World War I and subsequent conflicts, but also ...
https://i.imgur.com/N6XWgKZ.gif
Had the misfortune of taking public transport yesterday. I was a little into the trip when Hay fever reared its ugly head. A sneeze and cough had the man in front of me turn around; look at me, remove a Vicks Vapour Tube from his pocket and proceed to treat both his nostrils. Satisfied I now knew I was a cretin, he returned to reading his paper. That was followed by an elderly man pulling up along side our bus at a intersection. He was riding a high end racing bike and was kitted out in racing Lycra. He also had a teddy bear strapped to his front handlebars.
I ask you folks, what the hell is happening in Aotearoa?
Well, we know TV news ain't getting brighter or better. Last night a reporter asked why people were still swimming in a part of a river that had claimed four lives. It probably didn't cross this reporters mind that the river may have had nothing to do with recent drownings. The story also slyly wove in the disappointment of a Maori rahui being ignored. That part of the story showed a pakeha dude beached like a whale sunning himself on the river bank. That reiterated to viewers pakeha are ignorant and up to no good again.
This country is becoming so wacky, it wouldn't surprise me if we mandated nuclear energy as clean and green and started arresting those nutters who protested against nuclear ships in our harbour.
'It probably didn't cross this reporters mind that the river may have had nothing to do with recent drownings. '
Really ,here's me thinking they drowned in the river!
Why do they bother having 'swim between the flags'…at beaches?
Wacky..alright.
I can smell the uranium on your breath.
Since we have to ensure no one ever dies in NZ we will now ban all swimming, anywhere, by anyone
It's the only way to be safe
So,swimming between the flags is no good either,and why have lifesavers?
No, the risk is still too great. We must do everything we can to save lives
So banning it is, its the only way
Water-wings in the shower. Just to be safe.
Na. it's the New Zealand way to die, this is how you do it
https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/how-to-drown-1951
No.
Even one death from drowning is a tragedy therefore we must do everything in our power to stop drownings so the only way is to ban swimming entirely
I'm not even happy with people having a bath but maybe I'm getting soft in my old age
Dishonest debating technique no 7.
"Reductio in absurdem"!
Dishonest debating technique no 6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phSxxVJCZsc
You can't use that one.
The anti-vaccers have grabbed that also!
''Reductio in absurdem"!
I thought that started with Blazer's comment to my original post.
New one on me. When I went to school they taught us about "reductio ad absurdum".
The vagaries of spell check.
Compulsory swimming lessons and wearing of floaties for everyone!
No.
We must do everything we can to stop the dangerous disease of drowning spreading to other areas.
Ban summer bring back lockdown.
Since lockdowns have stopped we have had more road accidents and drowning.
People haven't been concentrating on the dangers around these activities.
Compulsory swimming lessons at school excellent idea. I doubt any kid would complain. They are natural water babes.
Remember those old school swimming lessons and the amount of chlorine in the pool stung your eyes…
https://www.today.com/health/what-makes-your-eyes-red-pool-its-not-chlorine-t28336
'When we go swimming and our eyes turn red, it’s because swimmers have peed in the water.'
“The nitrogen in the urine combines with the chlorine and it forms what’s known as chloramine and it’s actually chloramine that causes the red eyes," Michele Hlavsa, chief of the CDC’s healthy swimming program told TODAY in 2015. "It’s chlorine mixed with poop and sweat and a lot of other things we bring into the water with us.”
I knew of a teacher who sorted that problem by telling the kids if they peed in the water it would turn blue and everyone would know. 😉
I just used to go swimming in the Auckland tepid baths most weekends initially with mother when I was a bit young, and then bussing for club times.
Can't even remembering learning to swim, so I'd presume it was before I started remembering too much – ie before I started reading at about 3.
The school pools that were in the schools back in the 1960s were a health hazard.
Far too lax, Pucky. You have failed to ban accidental falling into the water by those who cannot swm – who will soon be an absolute majority under your system..
Personally I think the water itself is the problem …
Yep
People drown in water
If they weren't in the water they wouldn't drown
ergo the water is the problem!
We had compulsory swimming lessons at my primary school in the shallow end of our school pool. For some reason I could never get the hang of it. I'd let go of the flutter board & promptly panic & put my feet down.
I finally learnt to swim aged about 8 or 9 when we came down from New Plymouth & visited rellies in Upper Hutt. It was Summer & we & our cuzzies about our own age went up the Remutaka Road to Kaitoke Forest Park for a picnic.
While others swam in the Hutt River, I just waded about in me togs & then went boulder-climbing on the river bank. Not realising I couldn't swim, my cousin David pushed me off a boulder into a very deep pool of water. I sank to the bottom. The water was cystal clear, & before I'd even had time to panic I'd floated back up to the surface without any effort.
So I just dog-paddled to the beach on the other side & bingo – I'd learned to swim. Best thing anyone could have done to teach me to swim.
I'd been wondering how four people could have drowned in the Manawatu River in two days. From the video shown on 1ewes at 6 of the Rescue chopper & a number of people searching the river, it seemed a pretty placid river.
But then I heard one of the searchers (might have been a police officer) say that in this area of the river it goes very suddenly from one metre deep to five metres. Maybe they were wading in it in clothes or got caught up in underwater obstructions in the deep part?
With the last very heavy rainfall we had in Welly, some trees & logs have come down my stream & it'll take a pretty decent flood to shift them. Manawatu got that heavy rain too. Whatever the cause, it's bloody tragic.
Water in swimming pools is deemed a danger that requires comprehensive regulations around its fencing-off. Water anywhere else should always be regarded as capable of being bloody treacherous.
Id be fairly confident those who drowned this past week or so could swim (at least to some degree)….if you cant swim you generally avoid unsupervised water sports.
As a recipient of school swimming lessons, i was one of a good 30% ( in the cohort) who never mastered it until considerably latter, and those school swimming lessons were of little use….hence providing one on one lessons for our children.
Me too. As I posted above. In my case I learned to swim by accident, as I posted above, when I found out that we naturally float & that once you let yourself float it’s a relatively simple thing to keep your head above water.
(Although I nearly drowned 20 years later when I came out of a kayak in the Pauatahanui Inlet at high water on a rapidly outgoing tide when I got completely exhausted swimming after the kayak & slipped under the surface getting a couple of lungfuls of seawater before I realised I needed to swim just a few metres to the nearby mudflats, and go after the kayak on land. That’s when I realised how easy it is to drown if you’re exhausted.)
I’m curious, Pat. Just out of interest, can you remember at what age you finally learned to swim, & what it was that made the difference from your failed school swimming lessons?
@Gezza….we had compulsory summer swimming lessons in school pool every year from standard one until I think standard 4, from memory they stopped at standard 5/6….what changed for me to be able to swim?…practice and avoiding freestyle as much as possible….breathing was always my problem.
I can recall a good few kids who hated swimming lessons and would do whatever they could to avoid them.
@ maui; I realise your tongue is in your cheek when you say that, but being able to swim doesn't necessarily prevent drowning.
I was fishing at the Mataikona river mouth last week. A chappie 50 meteres away was putting out his Fish Seeker. Half an hour or so later him and his wife are winching it in. It appears to be snagged and he is hauling on the line trying to retrieve the gear.
He ended up going into the water waist deep and pulling on the line. 10 mins later and there are calls for help. I ended up going out to him, about 60 metres out, about 8 feet deep. He has the line wrapped around his arms, pinning them to his body and has run out of strength to keep his head above water.
I managed to free him and get him on his back then started to get to shore. While I was only in the water for 3ish minutes, I was spent. A good wake up call as to my lack of fitness.
One of those life events, that looking back, you can’t quite believe you did.
I got caught in a rip out at Great Barrier once while swimming off one of the ocean beaches. Had a rather desperate half an hour getting out of one rip only to fall in another before I finally staggered out on the beach.
I'm a excellent swimmer – but swimming at the Auckland west coast beaches like Muriwai or in the Kaipara north head really didn't prepare me to the Great Barrier close to the shore eddies caused by the offshore current.
Swimming is useful. But anyone can get caught out.
‘We can sh*t for another 10 years.’ Toilet paper, pandemic politics and cultural citizenship [9 November 2021]
The global reality of the COVID-19/Corona pandemic paradoxically boosted national politics, broadcasting and citizenship. Media coverage, especially initially, praised citizen solidarity and the creative solutions that were pioneered to care for each other. A year later, a lasting social learning curve throughout and after this crisis seems illusory. The pandemic, this paper argues, needs to be understood in a longer timeframe as the working through and coming to terms with neo-liberal governmentality. The (often hilarious) early responses on social media provide a strong entry to do so. Our focus will be on the Netherlands which had a so-called ‘intelligent’ lockdown during the first wave of COVID-19 in the spring of 2020. Using the authors’ own sharing back and forth of toilet paper memes as a starting point, we aim to explore the notion of collective self-reflection and citizen co-education underlying both heated and simply ridiculous posts. Using previous discussion of cultural citizenship, this paper inquires into how pandemic citizenship played out as a vast exercise in disciplining and distinction through jokes and anger. The material suggests a nostalgic turn that might point to an implicitly voiced critique of neoliberal governmentality.
Hopefully you were fully masked in public transport and not just wearing it as a chin strap!
I have three small smurfs blu-tacked into the space in my car where a CD player would be. I also have a bobble headed dog who springs into action when one of the lids on a space on the gear console is opened. I am happy to join forces with the elderly man in a group of NZers who say ‘who cares’.
Support the rahui as a mark of respect to those who have drowned, especially in any cases where they are still waiting for bodies to turn up. (not sure if this is still the case)
I like wackiness instead of beige.
Not sure what is going on…sorry for the repetition….I seem to have a bit of lag before amended comments are showing? Most likely operator error from a strange person.
Quirky people beat the 'beigers' any day in my book
Then you will like this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59850093
Re Rahui:
”Support the rahui as a mark of respect to those who have drowned, especially in any cases where they are still waiting for bodies to turn up. (not sure if this is still the case)”
Rahui is a Maori protocol, not European. It has no use if a body has been recovered. This will become another flash point down the road. I would not be surprised if the government or local councils have a go at making rahui observance official.
This will become another flash point down the road
Will it be as bad as your previous predicted "flashpoint", the roads from Auckland to Northland over Christmas/New Year? As you declared on here, repeatedly. Then reality arrived, and the civil war didn't.
You know the internet keeps your receipts, so maybe it's time to ease up on the forecasts without facts. They are starting to look more like wishes than warnings.
well remembered observer. I too remember some of blades bullshit. comes across as not a sharp blade .
That's right – Blade's an agitator.
''Will it be as bad as your previous predicted "flashpoint", the roads from Auckland to Northland over Christmas/New Year? ''
Oh, dear… what flash points? Seems you are behind the news. Can you guess why there were no flash points?
''You know the internet keeps your receipts, so maybe it's time to ease up on the forecasts without facts. They are starting to look more like wishes than warnings.''
Unlike the timid soul you are who spouts regally, but never puts their mana on the line… I do. I stand by what I predict.
"an elderly man . . . was riding a high end racing bike"
Come on, give him a break. What is Trevor going to do with himself when the House is not in session and he can't organise a Speaker's tour of Europe this year?
Come to think of it, just as well I didn't get cheeky otherwise he may have boarded the bus and given me what he gave to Tau Henare.
What the hell is happening in Aotearoa all right, when it's got to the stage of someone being discombobulated by a guy on a bike doing his own thing.
Yeah, but did the Teddy Bear have a choice? He was tied to the handle bars… that's torture. The Teddy was brown. That's racist. I'm afraid Peter, you are showing colonial tendencies.
50 yeare ago car manuals told you how to adjust the valves,
Now they tell you not to drink the battery acid. !!!
Plagiarized from fb but fittingly sums up the trajectory some of our species is on .
I always have a shot of battery acid in the morning ,to get me started,and a shot of brake fluid in the evening before…bed.
Forget the Coronavirus, that shit'd kill the Aids virus
Killing the host will often kill most viruses on them. However I'm not sure that it is a particularly useful therapeutic technique.
However it has been done a few times in history – the history of the leprous in particular
pretty sure you should be doing that the other way around. Brake fluid in the morning, always.
I bow to your greater knowledge in these matters
You forgot the glycol to keep your cool
Did a little search on battery acid consumption. I t seems medical magazines published research in 1968, over fifty tears ago.
Cocktail recipes with high alcohol and red chili content are published known as 'battery acid cocktails".
Not a new phenomenon it seems. Like storing dangerous chemicals in soft drink bottles…….
The valves adjust themselves these days? You don't have to close the doors either they seem to close themselves!
Just as well valves were replaced by transistors and then integrated circuits. Imagine the size of vehicle you would need, to drive all those computerized gizmos in the cars of today. 🙂
I wonder how many you are going to catch with your car valve alliteration?
Just showing my age.
I remember the size of the valves used in the directors on the Leander Class Frigates – hang over from WW2 technology – but very effective even so. They were massive glass bottles!
But as for self adjusting poppet valves in ICEs, my first bike – a 1953 350cc Matchless with OHV had inlet and exhaust valves that did adjust themselves, whether you wanted them to or not! Especially when the primary chain broke on a run up to the Levin racing circuit one Saturday. Managed to repair the primary chain with the help of a friendly engineering workshop. But when trying to start the bike afterwards couldn't turn the engine over no matter how much weight I put on the kick start lever. The valves had adjusted themselves when the engine over revved when the primary chain broke so that they were firmly closed. Didn't discover this until I got the bike home. Dad came in the car and towed me home over the Akatarawas.
A day I shall never forget.
"Dad towed me over the akatarawas"
Hee that dont make parents like that any more.
Heh – you made me think again – that goat track is one hell of a tow!
Better than down SH 1 and over the Haywards! 🙂
few cars coming the other way to contend with also on a Sat in those days also.
Mate and I bought a '39 Standard 10 for a tenner when we were 15. After school every day we would practice being Stirling Moss driving it up to the top of the Akatarawas and back down again. – That was until it ran its big end bearings. 🙁 His dad was a mechanic and suggested it would cost too much to repair and we should strip it for parts. Got 15 quid for the parts. 😉 So it paid for our petrol!
Still a good story – and a reminder of how much the world changes.
Jonathan Pie on Cop26 with lots of irreverent comment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s3RLl_xq7M
Why don't these gloomy bastards fuck off, no wonder they don't get votes, whining fucking no hopers. I'm allowed to be happy aren't I and so's everyone else so we put up with a bit of aggro and it works both ways right ? Case in point I got sick of fucking unused grass and shit in the backyard and needed somewhere to park the PWC so through a mate got a nice concreted area sweet and we took the kids up north and then down to nanna's at Okataina for more fun and why the fuck doesn't this fucking useless government do something about the fucking roads ?
You made me smile Grafton….everyone needs a good rant like that from time to time. All power to you !
https://getoutspoken.com/campus-crazies/turns-out-women-are-easy-to-push-around-just-ask-a-transgender-athlete
article on biological male winning all the swimming competitions in the states.
expect to see more of this hear. And if hate speech laws turn out to be how many of us fear, we will not be able to call this out
This particularly venomous article is from Outspoken, a project of Log Cabin Republicans.
Perfect fit for left-wing site. /s
[RL: Moderation is encouraging cites to support arguments and factual claims. Attacking the comment solely because you don’t approve of the source is both lazy and unhelpful.]
Mod note
I also commented on it's degree of venom, so not solely on it's source.
I don't think it's out of line to point out the origin when an article from an obscure organisation is shared here, purportedly a New Zealand focussed left-wing blog.
Clearly what you didn't want to comment on were any of the factual claims in the article. For example:
'Venomous' by contrast being a matter of opinion.
Expressing political opinion is a big part of what we do here. I don’t think there’s an obligation to read and critique a link. If someone puts up a brief comment and link, critiquing the comment, article and/or source is fair game.
I do agree that casual slurring of sources is unhelpful but basically the comment was brief and simply pointing out the right wing nature of the source. I’ve suggested next time they explain more.
This is a big issue in gender critical politics (sources), I’d rather see it hashed out rather than discouraging debate.
one aspect of that is that the left wing media have either failed to cover the issues well, or have taken a particular liberal, pro gender identity ideology position. This means that the issues are left to the right to cover. It also means it’s been hard for gc journalists and writers to get published so they’ve relied on centrist and rw outlets.
I want people here on all sides to critique sources, because that’s the only way we get to understand the issues.
Mod hat off, I also think that gc people need to get better at which sources they use. There are limits.
Do you have a list of approved left wing sources that are safe to use?
Wtf are you on about? I just laid out a clear rationale for letting anyone critique any source from a political perspective. A rationale that supports the robust debate ethic of TS and imo creates a better commenting community.
I’ll use whatever damn source I please, but if I link to Breitbart I would expect someone to ask why and I would expect to have to explain. If that needs explaining on a left focused blog I can but it should be self evident. In other words, this isn’t a politically neutral space.
that doesn’t mean we can only use lw sources, maybe you need to take more time to understand the argument here.
if you think TS mods should be suppressing such debate, please explain your thinking.
You said there "There are limits". I merely sought some clarity on what you thought they were.
Now provided thanks.
I assumed you were being sarcastic.
Well I was a little
so the left, who wants no debate, then also gets to define what resources people can use that would like a debate?
this resource is as legit as the Guardian (who tied itselfs into bretzels and still stays in that form since the WI-SPA incident – or should we consider what they served up as objective journalism). They comment on an event, do so as fair and as resonable as anywhere else, and frankly i have read the article, i can not find fault with it.
GC people are people who are on the right, the middle and the left, and they will bring sources that are on the right, the middle and the left.
The only limit on what one reads, listens or views is the limit that is imnposed by others. And we used to call this censure.
I suggest everyone actually read the link and then comment on that content of the article rather then the publication being of the "Log Cabin Republicans' aka the offical Gay – Lobby of the Republican Party.
Sabine 100% spot on
Well said.
I'm saying that we can also critique sources. I did this the other day with a stupid anti-Trudeau, pro-covid tweet. It helps.
I agree that reading a piece can obviate the need for the source critique.
We should critique sources, but we should base that critique on the words uttered rather then the perceived political allegiance of any given source. To simply deny a book/article/item a read/view/listen because it is printed under the wrong cover of ideology is lazy, imo. I would like to point out Marilyn Waring, should be discount her words and findings because she was a Member of the National Party and an MP for them?
We can read a conservative, liberal, libertarian, and communist publication on the same topic, walking away with the same information but different ideological spin. As is with the above publication. And then we can discuss the difference in ideology, but we can only do that if we actually start reading, listening and viewing items that we would otherwise ignore due to 'source' bias. And that is a thing that is currently happening big time, i think they call it 'cancellation' now a days.
Maybe put a trigger warning for those that can not abide by different thoughts and ideas then those that they approve of, but that really should be it. Even a stopped clock is twice a day correct.
100% agree
Great points Sabine.
I agree up to a point. Problem is, some website are just propaganda trash and if there is no critique at that level then people share information and it just gets accepted. This is very common on FB.
I agree we can read widely and I think writing off a partisan source casually is is a problem, although I won't read Kiwiblog or Slater's new blog, they have such a history of dirty politics that I don't think they can be trusted.
@Weka – sorry no reply button.
I never read Slater of Kiwi blog for that matter, but then i don't consider either one of them 'news' either. I consider them to be in the 'privately held opinions and believe' category, where i would put the Daily Blog, The Standard and many other blogs.
The point is that generally what is discussed is what goes on daily but with different view points. What gets to me is that immediate dismissing of a source because it 'right wing' or 'far left' or 'too centric', all of them meaningless descriptions by now, and often hurled to shut people up rather then make a point.
I don't trust any of the writers of big publications or televised news and government sponsored PR figurines/ettes, generally speaking their rather nice and comfortable lifes depend on getting paid by words and getting these words printed. Why would i trust such a person? Why would i trust the NZ Herald more then say the Daily Fail? they are both tabloid material at best, useless waste of paper at worst, but both will bring a bit of news. And by reading both i get the news the other would not print due to their own biases.
So really, do read especially those that you don't trust. That way you are aware at the very least of their talking points. Sadly, we live in a world were marching lockstep is almost mandated now, so wanting or expecting a variety of view points might be soon controversial if it is not already so.
A "pro-Covid" tweet?!?! You got a link to that?
Or are you referring to the Max Blumenthal tweet I put up that poked Trudeau for his hypocritical spouting on racism?
No idea.
those with the power get to select the 'acceptable' prejudices….c'est la vie
That Trudeau link/story was puerile. I am glad you critiqued it. I often critique sources and it does help if the poster does recognise that posting from some sources does make readers gulp at first glance sometimes.
lol – it was a tweet with Trudeau from his blackface days designed to make a simple point about his hypocrisy. And there was absolutely nothing "pro Covid" about it – a risible and pathetic contention.
Mind you, in the linked interview, he absolutely was suggesting that racists shouldn't be tolerated – at least, not unvaccinated ones – and that racists would essentially account for all the "not to be tolerated" unvaccinated people who weren't either anti-science and/or misogynists.
In other words, a poster child of liberalism was dog-whistling "open season" on unvaccinated people who wouldn't otherwise be convinced that pumping their body with an m-RNA injection was a good thing.
It was the classic "I'm not (insert), and while we can convince some (insert) to adhere to our preferences, there are those other (insert) and well, they're beyond the pale and ought not to be tolerated"
And anyone who can't see that, or refuses to acknowledge that, probably fancies themselves as some kind of "Covid Cop" and will be psychologically or otherwise 'tooling up' for the season to commence.
Thanks Weka, point taken
cheers Anker. I haven't read your link btw, I was making a general comment 🙂
Here is a factual article covering the topic without the needless spin from the Log Cabin Republicans or Ben Shapiro’s Daily Wire. Note the difference in tone, and emphasis on the facts:
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/controversy-of-the-year-transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas-swims-fastest-times-in-the-nation/
That would have been a fine response.
The media is in New Zealand has let women down in its reporting of the issues around gender ideology and women’s rights. Groups like SUFW had their meetings canceled and had to go to the High Court, who found they were not a hate group and their meetings should go ahead. They also had their adverts cancelled even though the ASA had found their add not offensive.
Apologies if you don’t like the source of the article, but I am more interested in getting some reporting on the facts, ie a male bodied swimmer in the US who was a mediocre swimmer in male competitions is breaking all sorts of records in the female competitions and women competitors are powerless to do anything about it.
you claim it is a verminous article, but I think that is a matter of opinion. Women have every right to feel furious about this IMO
The media is in New Zealand has let women down in its reporting of the issues around gender ideology and women’s rights. Groups like SUFW had their meetings canceled and had to go to the High Court, who found they were not a hate group and their meetings should go ahead. They also had their adverts cancelled even though the ASA had found their add not offensive.
You are absolutely right, imo. It shows the sorry state of Political Correctness & fear of opprobium around gender-self-ID & trans-athletes adopted by the media. Rather than having the gonads to publish fair commentary from both sides, they seem to avoid any mention of the problems it IS and/or may cause CIS women.
It almost seems like suddenly being a CIS-gendered woman (or man) & having an opinion piece critical of trans-gender female athletes being allowed to compete with CIS-gendered females is subject to an editorial ban on NZ msm publication.
you claim it is a verminous article, but I think that is a matter of opinion. Women have every right to feel furious about this IMO
Damn straight! 👍🏼
Yes, they have passed some rules that allow them to compete against Non Males.
I suggest that this person continues swimming in the Non Males team, and i suggest that any other coach anywhere who wants to win in the 'Female Sports' starts hiring other Non Females for that winning advantage and soon we will have full teams with Trans Women competing against Trans Women. And the little Non Males who whinge for not being able to compete and win against Non Females can just stay home.
"here is a factual article" Arkie
"unsurprizingly Thomas impressive performance has raised controversy"….
I would pull you up right there. Its not an impressive performance at all. Thomas is male bodied and therefore has a significant advantage. See my Radio New Zealand link below in my comment to I prent.
Ross Tucker sports scientist speaks. So it should read "Thomass "impressive" performance….
'Here is a factual article covering the topic without the needless spin from the Log Cabin Republicans or Ben Shapiro’s Daily Wire.'
You know who broke the Loudoun County first? The Daily Wire did because the other media outlets wouldn't touch it because of the subject matter
That is the issue, arkie.
That unfair competition has been ruled permissable, because the sporting body has decided that "inclusion" takes priority over fairness.
This decision has been made knowing that male bodied athletes retain a biological advantage, despite reducing testosterone.
Biological sex categories existed in sport as an acknowledgment of the differences in performance. That advantage has not disappeared. What has disappeared is the priorities of fairness, and safety.
Most of the posters here on this issue, have expressed their concerns over the impact of legislative and policy changes that prioritise gender identity over biological sex.
This is another instance.
That Thomas ( who as a male category swimmer was not particularly succesful ) was according to another report loudly extolling his/her winning ability and rather unfortunatley reminded me of another who lauded his ability in "winning"a "fire fight " when not only doing so as the only one armed but did it with an Armalite.
I’m think it’s fine to do that, my suggestion is next time to include more words that explain what you think the issue is.
Noted.
The media is in New Zealand has let women down in its reporting of the issues around gender ideology and women’s rights. Groups like SUFW had their meetings canceled and had to go to the High Court, who found they were not a hate group and their meetings should go ahead. They also had their adverts cancelled even though the ASA had found their add not offensive.
Apologies if you don’t like the source of the article, but I am more interested in getting some reporting on the facts, ie a male bodied swimmer in the US who was a mediocre swimmer in male competitions is breaking all sorts of records in the female competitions and women competitors are powerless to do anything about it.
you claim it is a verminous article, but I think that is a matter of opinion. Women have every right to feel furious about this IMO
Expect to see more of it here? I guess people will have all sport events large and small under watch, ready to report of 'strange things.'
Few will care about a tennis tournament in Nelson, or care about tennis, or care about sports, but if there's a hint of a competitor in a women's event there 'looking masculine,' Nelson, tennis, sports and women in sport will become the most important things in the history of the world for some.
It seems that people are going to be pivoting around the main point – this theft of natural identity at will as a social movement, not a personal imperative. Males saying they are females and females saying they are males.
I wonder if females can utilise this new glitch in society's reasoning. Seeing they get paid on average 80% of male wages and get downgraded for bearing and rearing the nation's children, an unimportant sideline thing, can they leverage themselves into a better space being bi-sexual?
Some males (me for instance) earn less than there peers so as to do some raising of the kids, I know it's mostly woman but not only women.
and females saying they are males.
Yes – overlooked in this whole debate is that probably a lot of men are quietly unimpressed by this as well.
Well, RL, any day now, any day now they can be a bit noisy while being unimpressed, and above all they can also support those that are noise about it.
As i said before, this will undo 'sex', not only as a protected category for women – which many may actually not have an issue with, but this will also then affect men. Men now give birth, Men now menstruate, Anyone can be a Man and you can not do a damn thing about it.
Again, my issue is the 'Self' part of the ID thing. And as it stands now i can declare myself a bloke, run for the male leadership of my local Green party shop, not change a single thing, and these people would not be allowed to say a single thing lest they fear calls of Transphobia. Somewhere all of this has gone insane.
And this swimmer belies in so many ways the – they have no advantage – bullshit that TRA throw at women and expect them to swallow it up wholesale lest they lose their jobs, have the police come knocking on the door, have death and rape threats send to them etc etc, btw, all of whom are not 'hate crimes'.
If men are concerned about this, start making some noise.
start making some noise.
Many of us have been carefully trained not to.
Well then you must complain to your trainer, or simply break the rules and speak up. And remember that we expect Non Males to be kind and accommodating, so if we can find it with in us to speak about what is happening in our lifes and how it affects us and do i need to remind you the consequences of that speaking out for many – Maya Forstater, JKR – and any other Terf who is supposed to 'suck lady dick' for not believing that humans can change sex- maybe men can find that courage too.
It is neither the fault nor the problem of Non Males if Males feel compelled to think that this does not affect them, until it eventually does – and most likely then it will be too late to change a thing – that is on them entirely.
I wish all the Non Female persons who are a bit unhappy about the happenings going on that they find some courage and conviction and above all that they find their voice, regardless of their 'training'.
Somewhere all of this has gone insane.
Yeah, it has. It’s possibly somehow got all tied up with Cancel Culture & multiple bullshit pronouns insisted on by some really strange folk. There’s a whole range of odd people out there who are insisting on their right to be, do, or say whatever they like & to mob-attack critics who disagree with whatever they are trying to force others to accept or do.
I wish all the Non Female persons who are a bit unhappy about the happenings going on that they find some courage and conviction and above all that they find their voice, regardless of their ‘training’.
They do. Privately mostly. After 6 decades of men being told by strident feminists to shut up & never to have the temerity to presume they can speak for women, because they’re NOT women, it’s a bit difficult to find a starting place to speak from.
“Speaking as a man, I support those biological women & sportswomen who object to trans-women who’ve been through male puberty competing in women’s sports where they are likely to have a competitive advantage because of their biology & frame.
The only way to be fair about it, imo, is probably to establish a separate category of trans-women & trans-men sports competitions.”
Well, it is in the end up to everyone to decide if they are going to be quiet and silent (and put that on some vaguely defined feminists or such) when they see that the Emperor is naked or if they may rise in courage like the child and points out that indeed the Emperor is naked.
This is something that each will have to fight out with one self, how much of a lie will one participate in?
“The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie. "One word of truth outweighs the world.”
― Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
also this one here 🙂
“You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me.”
― Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Ross Tucker, sports scientist, in Anker’s link below, the audio of the interview with whom I’ve now listened to in full, makes it abundantly clear that the very top men athletes will always outperform the very top women athletes because of biological/physiological sex-related differences.
That pretty much nails it I believe for most men regarding trans-women competing in women’s sport. Indon’t know any men who support it.
However male & female sports commentators don’t seem to want (or aren’t allowed by their orgs) to discuss this issue in any detail. So what most men believe isn’t likely to make any difference.
In that Tucker Interview some female rugby player (I forget who) says she doesn’t mind playing against trans-women from the body-mass/safety point of view. Tucker points out that about 10% of female athletes expressed similar views, but the other 90% were not keen.
So I’m at a loss to know why this is such a taboo subject for the msm. I can only put it down to fear of criticism & being reported on to eg the HRC for appearing to be anti-transgender.
@Gezza.
It isn't just " that the very top men athletes will always outperform the very top women athletes". A lot of the time it is that any half competent schoolboy can do it. I mean to say, when I was in my last year at school I could, as a sprinter, outperform the best women.
In my last year at school I won the school senior 100 yards. The main reason I could do it is because I was the only one still there out of the dozen or so I had competed against in earlier years. I could run, on a very, very good day a time of about 10.4 seconds. Well I have just had a look at the times run by men and women to win the New Zealand title during the 10 years from 1954 to 2003. The fastest time for the men was 9.5 secs. For women it was 10.9 secs.
In other words I would never have been allowed to enter the men's races and I would have completely dominated the women's ones. And I was only a competent schoolboy. I wasn't a good one.
You don't have to be a "very top male" You only have to have some idea of what the event is and be male to win. It is frankly totally unfair to allow trans females to compete in sports against natal females. The natal females really don't have a chance.
@ alwayn
You don’t have to be a “very top male” You only have to have some idea of what the event is and be male to win. It is frankly totally unfair to allow trans females to compete in sports against natal females. The natal females really don’t have a chance.
Fair enuf. You’ve looked at the times for sprints & I haven’t. I think men would outperform women in any sport that relies on muscle power.
I’m very aware that Laurel Hutton badly crashed out of medals contention at the Tokyo Olympics. So I’m not prepared to say that any competent male (or former male) can outperform women in all sports categories because I don’t know if that’s been scientifically demonstrated yet.
that was @ alwyn (sorry for misspelling) 🙄
@ Gezza
They did not crash out the Olympics, they should have never participated in the first place. They took the place of a young Non Male who fought for and squarely won her place of admission. They got to show up to role play an Olympian simply because this trans identified male decided to prolong their career for a few more years and finally win some medals – as a 'women' and the regulatory body of the Olympics has obviously no idea what a female human being is and let them, and in NZ everyone expected everyone to go and gush about this person and be all 'brave and stunning'. As far as the Olympics go, this person is the epitome of unsportliness, unfairness.
The difference between them and all the female competitors ?
About 15 – 20 years in age, all of the female were in their twenties while this person was in their 40's. A trans identified male in his 40s was competing against non males in their 20s. A trans identified male who all their life trained as a male, competed as a male and in their late 30 – around 33+(maybe 36) started winning medals against women and thus got to participate in an event that they never would have participated in as a male as they would never have been good enough to qualify. Having almost 15 odd years ahead in training, experience, etc, is certainly no advantage to anyone when competing and certainly not for a trans identified male who competes against young woman for whom this is a ONCE in a life time event.
This person did not flunk out, this person won by simply showing up. That they then were what everyone could see, a human well past their prime time, slightly out of shape for an event as the Olympics, and with physical issues, and actually could only be a loser, has got nothing do with anything. To win they only needed to show their unsportlym, unhealthy and unfit self on that stage. Selfish is as selfish does.
They could have done the correct thing and simply opt out, but who would give them then their public affirmation and adoration for being 'stunning and brave' while essentially having cheated a proper contender out of her place, so that they could strut around like a naked emperor with no one daring to call out the nakedness of that emperor.
@ Sabine
All very good points. I agree completely with all you say there.
Who cares about looking masculine? The issue is of fairness and sexism in allowing male bodied people to compete in female only competitions. There’s a large body of evidence and knowledge now on how make and female bodies differ and how that impacts on fairness in sports.
I used to play cricket, rugby, softball, some league, and a few other things – basically to provide a point to exercising that wasn't the equivalent of doing yoga looking at a blank wall.
Then I went into the army and that gave even more of a point to why to exercise.
Competitive sports just bore the hell out of me. They seem completely pointless. Doing a couch potato or being a spectator of competitive sports has always seemed to me to be the most useless form of vicarious drooling by simpletons that I could possibly imagine.
Personally I'd be just as happy to ban competitive sports altogether and get rid of this idiotic issue that way.
However, mu view on this that I have kind of noticed that there a considerable range of abilities and basic body conformation even within a single gender and some large overlaps between genders. After all if you have short male legs, then you're going to be outclassed by long female ones. I’ve seen people who have no obvious physical abilities run self-professed athletes into the ground by what looks like pure determination.
It just becomes the luck of genetics either way. Seems a silly thing to compete over a the toss of luck from your ancestral progenitors and the vagaries yours and their upbringing.
In my mixed training and eventual military unit (I was a medic) both the laggards and front-runners were invariably mixed genders. I remember one escape and evasion exercise over the mountains behind Tolaga Bay where I damn near had to dragged up some sections by some very fit women who'd just finished yomping all over the Southern Alps. Then I was pretty damn fit – but not in their league.
Doing that kind of thing in your 20s cures a lot of delusions that many still seem to have about human variability.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018757712/the-science-of-transgender-women-in-sport
"and some large overlaps between the genders." I prent.
Here's a link (Radio NZ) to what sports scienctist Ross Tucker says about the difference of men and women in sports.
A short snippert is about women runners, but there is also some stuff about trans women playing rugby with women and injuries. Tucker was employed by the Rugby World Federation to tease out the issues of transwomen playing rugby.
The fastest women in the world can be beaten by the 10,000 fastest male runners, including boys as young a 14years. Men have bigger hearts, lungs more haemoglobin, flex muscles and many other advantages in sport.
This is what is relevant in this debate.
Not that sport is a rather stupid thing to be concerned about? Essentially a useless artificial concept that largely seems to be invented by shysters to make money from?
Of that the 10,000 fastest males runners can also out perform the majority of the male population as well as the majority of the female population? Not to mention all horses who can out run all human runners except for marathon runners.
Or that old age will eventually enable almost all 20yo women to out run the fastest male runners in their 80s.
It is a completely artificial and essentially meaningless battle ground that you appear to be choosing. Makes it really really hard to see how it has any relevance apart from being a place to run a PR campaign on.
Ultimately everyone winds up having to deal with the hand that luck and genetics handed out to them. I hardly think that sport is a battleground worth wasting time on. After all if you can’t be the fastest runner and you want to be competitive – then simply pick something where you have an advantage. Become a top tunnel crawler or extremely long distance walker. Or become a computer programmer or a graphic artist and go and do something that has less genetics in it.
You appear to be picking a battleground for PR purposes. That is what appears to me to be the main thing that is relevant in this part of the 'debate'. Probably because there aren’t any useful arguments outside of something ridiculous like sport?
You appear to be picking a battleground for PR purposes.
I'm guessing – because as a male I'm underqualified to say much – is that GC's have a wide range of social concerns, but the sports element is both concrete and measureable – and it's obvious cheating. This is something most ordinary people, many of whom do enjoy sport, can understand.
If you were running a campaign it would be negligent to set aside your most obvious plank. A bit like a Labour campaign that neglected to mention say – class.
"You appear to be picking a battleground for PR purposes. That is what appears to me to be the main thing that is relevant in this part of the 'debate'. Probably because there aren’t any useful arguments outside of something ridiculous like sport?"
Strangely enough, in NZ, the inherent unfairness of biological males competing in female categories, does have broader traction where the discussion of the protection of female-only spaces does not.
As for the last sentence, only someone who has not bothered getting informed on the issue would have the gall to write that sentence. I suggest you may want to read some of the other posts on this issue, or get information from somewhere other than your personal experience.
Yes.The top woman tennis player in the world would be beaten by any top 500 player.
', 203rd-ranked German Karsten Braasch beat Serena Williams and Venus Williams back-to-back at the 1998 Australian Open.
Yes, and Serena Williams is quite open about that.
Does it thus make it fair for male bodied individuals to compete against non male bodied people. And should you call it 'female sport' then, rather tehn 'mixed gender'.
That would be my preference, and i don't care about sport one bit tbh.
Female – only natal females
mixed gender – transwomen, transmen, non binaries of all genders, natal men / women and anyone else i might not know exits or will exist in the future.
Male – only natal males
That be in the too hard basket? Or is it just that the two baskets of funds – 1 for male sport and 1 for female sport would be better spend on 1 for male sport and 1 for transwomens sport, and non males and non transwomen just go stay home and forget about having sports teams and games, after all any boy can beat them at it?
In horse racing we have colts, geldings and fillies all completing equally. Maybe gelding would be a start.
funnily enough, when you look at the range of physical abilities they still track distinctly differently for males and females. This is the basis of why we have women's sport in the first place.
It's also the basis of why we have female only spaces. If, on average, the range of physical abilities of women matched that of men, then we (women) would have put a stop a long time ago to rape and other kinds of violence by men against women.
There's a large body of evidence on this from medical and sports science, and a *lot of analysis in recent years, that points to distinct differences based in biology.
I'll look for a better link later (especially the one about running, leg length and the other factors that affect one's ability to run fast) but in the meantime, this from 2010,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3761733/
Sure. For all of that. However it is an overlapping set of distributions. Even more so when you start removing the age restrictions and the way that the people arguing it seem to selectively pick the comparing where there is the most difference (ie the anatomical cervical difference).
However that wasn't what I was arguing. What I was arguing was that sport is stupid social space to run this argument in.
After almost no-one can out-compete top athletes of any gender and most of us don't bother trying to compete. I can pretty well guarantee that even when I was at my most fit, that I could have never competed with top female athletes.
If you want to argue for female only spaces, then why bothering using the daftness of sport to mount the 'debate' on. Great place if you want to highlight the vast range of human variability and gratuitous elitism. Or the vagaries of national or regional dietary patterns in childhood.
You could just as easily equally argue that there should be sports restricted to skinny people with short legs to ensure competitiveness for short legged people. Or restricted to people who mainly eat rice. Or that there should be different competitions for those whose genetic background is from near to the equator rather than higher latitudes.
All of those have different distributions in all of the same facets that you and Anker have been pointing out. That is why I find this particular line of argument so irritating – it isn't about anything important except to the individuals who are involved in sport. Which is a tiny elitist minority in the world population, even if you count in their slobbering couch potato fans. As I keep pointing out is is a matter of pure genetic luck and which society in which era that a individual and their grandmother grew up in (the egg formation argument). Essentially a matter of luck.
I have no problem with the concept of female only spaces. But so far I'm seeing bugger all arguments about why they're more of a priority than something useful like shifting the legal and social structures to remove glass ceilings or the obvious gender discrimination in career paths or the antique attitude that marriage is a licence to rape within the institution.
So far from what I have seen is a series of complaints with no particular explanations about why females only spaces something that really necessary for the future of any of our societies.
Basically it sounds like someone just trying to re-create the female equivalent of 19th century upper-class gentleman's club. Which were primarily founded as way to avoid child care and insider trading as far as I can see.
'After almost no-one can out-compete top athletes of any gender and most of us don't bother trying to compete. I can pretty well guarantee that even when I was at my most fit, that I could have never competed with top female athletes.'
While not wanting to bring down the big, black, bold typeface of doom.
You're wrong about this.
You may think you're not wrong but you are wrong.
However whether you're right or wrong isn't the issue (you're wrong of course) but are you ok with boys deciding they're girls and taking college scholarships away from girls?
Basically as soon as puberty hits girls cannot compete physically, in most sports, with boys
https://www.usatf.org/resources/statistics/records/championship-meet-records/usatf-national-junior-olympic-track-field-champion
You talk about shifting social structures but you don't seem bothered by girls being disadvantaged financially and with future educational prospects.
Very few seem to be bothered by it to be fair – which is why the non males sometimes come across as if their hair was at fire :).
Even that that point is a feature in this whole mess rather then a sad side effect.
It is costing women and girls awards, places of employment, places in sports competitions and the resources that come when one is a winning competitior, it is costing them the privacy and dignity of a place away from men while relieving themselves, while getting undressed, while needing a rape kit administered and wanting this to be done by a natal women rather then by a man who helds a sincere believe that he too is a women, while needing shelter and not wanting to share with male bodies, being called a pregnant mum to be rather tehn considered a walking inseminated incubator that is barely sentient and so on and so forth.
I pointed that out above, if there are two funds in sport (or anything else for that matter), Fund A is to fund sporting/education etc for boys and Fund B is to fund the same for Girls what changes when you replace Girls with Trans identified males? You appropriate both funds for the advancement of boys. It is the intended outcome.
Got to admit I was surprised by lprents contribution today, I didn't think he was like that
You really are being stupid today. That wasn't what I was arguing. What I was arguing was that sport is a bloody silly place to try and argue a law change from.
It is by definition an elitist area where 99% of the people who might want a opportunity of the type that you are touting simply by virtue of mere genetics, upbringing and opportunity cannot compete with others.
Doesn't matter if they XX or XY – the vast majority of people of any gender or sexual orientation cannot compete for financial rewards and future educational prospect (FFS – are you a Americian?) because they don't get the opportunity.
Don't you realise just how silly you sound? When you're talking something that would require legislative approval and apply across the whole population. That sounds like a real vote catcher – support the female elite in sports because they're better then everyone else apart from a few males.
/sarc
You're on the wrong side of this.
I hope that one day you can see that and change your views accordingly.
It'd be nice if someone could explain why.
So far I haven't seen anything that is capable of being brought into our current legislative framework. Or a reason for doing it that doesn’t stink of an underlying implied “I don’t like them – they smell” rationalisation. If it isn’t that, then there must be a explainable reason.
I have just been getting idiotic brushoffs like yours and lectures about sport.
Reads an awful lot like bigots and discrimination to me.
I remember one escape and evasion exercise over the mountains behind Tolaga Bay where I damn near had to dragged up some sections by some very fit women who'd just finished yomping all over the Southern Alps. Then I was pretty damn fit – but not in their league.
Having spent a chunk of my youth in the Southern Alps with women just like these – I can advise that the difference is that they tended to have more endurance over long days, while I had more speed and strength in the very rough terrain.
Yep. I can open tight lids far better than my female partner. But then again so can any lever.
Reminds me – I should go and buy her the general purpose jar and bottle top opener. I have better things to use my fingers for. And for the single-minded amongst readers – they mostly involve using keyboards into my old age.
Last I looked bottle opening was not an Olympic sport, or any sport for that matter. (Happy to be proven wrong, nothing is too weird for the world we live in.)
Nor is sport confined to just the elites as you imply, people of all ages and ability get a great deal out of it. They enjoy competing because almost all sports are carefully organised by sex, age, weight, classes and skill divisions to ensure everyone has some chance of succeeding.
There's almost as much fun to be had winning a social game of touch as there is watching the AB's bring home a World Cup. But no-one would be interested in watching an AB team crush a bunch of social players.
And this doesn't apply to just sports – there is for example a reason why we don't ask five year old's to sit Stage 3 Math exams.
Sure and I used to like sports almost as much as books when I was younger. They were pretty non-competitive amongst the kids – the most competitive were generally the parents getting their vicarious thrills.
However I have also seen way too much discrimination in sports because of the habit of micro-slotting. It is why women's rugby took so long to take off. It simply wasn't an option in the league. Changed now. But most of the changes you're describing kick in post-pubescent. We used to have some truly evil female backs in pickup games back when I was a kid.
Women's cricket or woman being on cricket teams seems to be sparse as well, and that is a sport that is almost entirely technique and practice.
However every example I have seen offered about sport (apart from your one) offered so far referred to elite sports. And what I was arguing was that sports elite or otherwise are bloody stupid place to argue a legal principle on.
Which is a extremely small microcosm in society and using that as a basis for
To take en extreme example, it would be the exact equivalent of arguing that women should have several free turns in inter spousal violence because most (but not all) women are smaller than their male spouses. Regardless that the female perp is an expert in martial arts and their spouse crawls in a ball with anxiety at any form of conflict.
Such is the diversity of humans when you stop looking shallowly at means and ignoring distributions.
You really can't make legislation based on something like that outside of small children. We don't have many weird loophole exceptions like that left in our current legislation.
"to provide a point to exercising that wasn't the equivalent of doing yoga looking at a blank wall."
That is exactly why competitive sports are useful.
It is interesting too that my who wife was a competitive swimmer/diver can't get her head around team sports. Even going for a walk she slips into a mode of no-one else exists and she walks at her own pace.
I on the other hand as a soccer/cricket/rugby player can't get used to doing something without others e.g. running by yourself.
Whether this is a natural genetic variation which is why we were drawn to our specific sports in the first place or conditioning from years of participation or a combination of both would be interesting.
Pete is the tennis tournament hypothetical or is this really happening?
A town chosen at random. If that city wanted all the eyes of the world on it, having a tournament with a competitor in a women's event 'looking masculine' would achieve that.
And of course many who've never had anything to do with sport, participating, organising or administering, would be into it. All of a sudden sports would be be= the centre of their universe along with Nelson a place they've never had a thought about previously.
If gender is a social construct (a view I'm happy to agree with), then how can anyone possibly be transgender?
To be transgender would entail moving from one gender (by transgender logic, from a somewhat 'fixed' or definable reality) to another somewhat 'fixed' or definable reality. On the other hand, if gender is held to be nowt but a social construct, then gender is whatever any person might decide gender will be for them.
Sex is another kettle of fish. As far as my very limited biological knowledge goes, sex is defined by the presence of xx and xy chromosomes. (No doubt there are additional criteria)
But anyway, does anyone really believe an archaeologist of the future will dig up someone's bones and puzzle over whether the bones are those of a female or a male?
First they'll want to know the correct pronouns perchance they deadname them.
I got a surprise doing some online Te Reo Maori lessons last year to learn that ia in Māori is the personal pronoun for either she or he – and probably applies just as well for any other invented gender someone odd might want to come up with.
https://kupu.maori.nz/more/pronouns
We are so used to using he/him/his & she/her/hers (with a gender neutral it/its) in English & other European languages it seemed odd to use the same pronoun for both sexes, & English-speakers would naturally expect it to be confusing sometimes, but it clearly isn’t, and hasn’t been, any problem for Māori speakers for centuries.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/459009/new-conservation-plan-for-canterbury-s-braided-rivers
Good news, something that was being talked about mid 2021 seems to have come to fruition.
…The braided river revival plan was announced by Environment Canterbury in November, with the Rangitata and Rakahuri/Ashley rivers the first to be incorporated into the new plan.
It was supported by Tumu Taiao, which provides advice to the council on interests of mana whenua.
Council principal adviser on braided rivers David Owen said a whole river approach was needed, and each river would have its own individual pathway.
"We've created the Braided River Revival/Whakahaumanu Ngā Awa ā Pākihi programme of work to align … the many river management responsibilities the council has … These include flood management, weed and pest control, biodiversity enhancement and recreational values through regional parks."
Owen said the rivers were rare internationally and New Zealand had some of the best examples of braided rivers in the world...
I'd wait to see some detail before congratulating anyone, especially CRC given their past record.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/legal-threat-looms-over-ecans-hidden-river-report
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/emails-expose-councils-clash-with-scientist
Tory fucks are Torys.
https://twitter.com/matroked/status/1477543254245601281
What's more, it has essentially facilitated the transfer of almost all the water in the river to title owned by just 35 farmers in the area. If Kiwis believe water in this country is a public resource, think again.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/lindis-saga-damning-indictment-on-council
The ORC allocation debates ste a key reason Parker is stripping all TLAs of freshwater management.
The ORC is a pit of deeply corrupt bullies who have had several "please explain" letters from the Minister. They treated Marion Hobbs utterly disgracefully.
I will be particularly interested in how they they handle the Onslow project consents.
The Cluth tributaries have been utterly violated for a century.
It was mentioned here in an earlier post about an older guy, dressed in racing lycra riding a bike. I say good on him.
Being in my mid 70s now, I have found my confidence has grown as I have aged. Not sure if it's a common thing with the aging process, or some of us think what the hell, I'm doing this that or the other, regardless.
Having been very hesitant around water, when I reached my 6th decade I decided to learn to swim, through one on one lessons. Since then, I have been swimming at my local pool three days a week, not worrying what I look like in a swimsuit, despite everything heading south and some cellulite here and there. I can swim and that's all that matters to me. Whereas previously I wouldn't have been so brave as to be seen publicly in swimwear.
In the same decade I flew a Cessna aircraft, accompanied of course by a registered flying instructor, an amazing experience. My 60s began my time of challenge.
Now in my 7th decade, I feel more confidant than ever. I've always loved colours, but in the past I always wore colours that didn't make me stand out. However now I wear what I feel like wearing and to hell what anyone else thinks. I feel more comfortable and confident in my own (wrinkly) skin now than ever before. Most of all, I am enjoying being me. And I guess that's what the older Lycra clad guy on the bike was doing, being who he is and making the most of it.
My dad has hit 82.
He was showing me at xmas on his e-bike at how he'd had to change the height of his right side pedal by boring a new hole in the pedal crank. That was because his right knee wasn't flexing in a wide enough range to deal with pedal at the normal position.
He is due to head into hospital in a week or so get that knee sorted out. Then he will return the pedal to its usual position.
My comment was that he should fix the butchered crank because one with ruddy great hole drilled into it was freaking dangerous. He will probably ignore me as usual..
I think that e-bikes are just awesome for extending out the elderly rediscovery of the joy in life. They certainly are making my 60s more fun.
Thanks Lynn for sharing your dad's exercise story with his e-bike. I wish him well with his knee.
e-bikes are a great way to exercise outdoors, particularly for the elderly. I do envy people who cycle. I can't ride a bike anymore, due to a brain injury a few years back, which affected my balance and coordination. Instead I use an ancient rattly stationery bike, which works well, when I can't go walking outside on my non swimming days. Where there's a will, there's always a way for us "golden oldies to enjoy our lives."
Oh Mary_a, how relatable that story is. Confidence and acceptance of self and others = true freedom. Long may you enjoy life.
Your colour comment rang bells. I had many gifts from family and friends, furniture inherited as well, in greens and creams. I lived with them on and off for ten years. The travel and motorhome meant three years? of time spent in that scheme.
Then we redecorated with plum teal and gold. Just great. We love it. Should have done that earlier.
We are not talking abt the cricket
I'll just pop down to New World for some fucks to give about Cricket. I've run out.
And you have run out of reviews!!
Given that Covid responses in country A tend, if successfully implemented, to flow on to countries B, C and D these days…
OTTAWA — The federal minister in charge of aid to the unemployed says jobless Canadians who refuse to get vaccinated may find themselves blocked from benefits so long as public health concerns remain top of mind.
The Liberals have tacked conditions onto a suite of benefit payments, saying none can go to workers who lose work or hours because they have refused to get vaccinated.
who could have possibly foreseen this.
But…but…but "Greater Good" and "Team of 5 million" and…"Be Kind!"
nek minute…
Washington Post calls for same.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/02/handing-out-unemployment-aid-people-who-refuse-get-vaccinated-is-silly/
"It's shambolic, I tell you!" No, not the Natz in NZ this time, but Dr. Kerryn Phelps, Australia's first female AMA President, letting rip about the Australian Federal government's handling of the current Omicron outbreak (i.e. "let it rip"). Phelps is not concerned so much about Omicron's severity, or lack of it, but the fact that the government hasn't planned for the possibility that a very transmissible, vaccine evading variant could disrupt ordinary life so much as this one. Watch out, NZ as there are certainly lessons to be learned here to help mitigate the effects of the spread of Omicron when it inevitably leaks out of MIQ.
Let it rip strategy is a policy initiative for Herd Immunity (aka a pox party) which is an obvious experimental failure.
https://twitter.com/math_rachel/status/1478163527328100357?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1478163527328100357%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpublish.twitter.com%2F%3Fquery%3Dhttps3A2F2Ftwitter.com2Fmath_rachel2Fstatus2F1478163527328100357widget%3DTweet
the reports coming out of Oz from health care workers today are grim af.
Yet the muppets among us are insisting Omicrom is a minor respiratory disease. That's just the mode of transmission.
What is Omicrom's effect on the vascular system, do other organs sustain the damage inflicted by prior versions, and what are the prospects of disability of unknown duration after even mild initial illness?
https://twitter.com/hjelle_brian/status/1478021286269886464
You think maybe legs will fall off a week or three after infection?
How's about weighing up the known effects of Delta against the known effects of Omicron instead of rushing to hunker in the 'bunker of fear'?
(Also, where was all this “concern” over m-RNA’s possible medium and long term effects?)
The vaccines went through months of monitored trials with tens of thousands of people with known exposures and nothing chronic for a year so far.
Omicron, we've basically had enough time to see 2 or three reproductive generations. Chronic conditions would still be indistinguishable from acute at this stage.
But if the least-worst-case of 2% of cases needing hospitalisation is even accurate, what does hitting 10k a day equal? In a week will they be getting 200 admissions a day? Victoria's not much bigger than NZ.
There is not a single country in the world further into the Omicron wave than Australia is, that is experiencing (or has experienced) a worrisome surge in hospital admissions driven by Omicron infection.
On vaccines – excess deaths for all causes bar Covid, spike in those injected in line with vaccination roll outs. Now, I guess that might have nothing to do with the injections, but someone somewhere would have to come up with a feasible explanation that applied across all the age groups that show up those excess deaths among the vaccinated.
Bullshit.
Easiest way to look at that is in a very low covid country with a very high vax rate. And it's not happened in NZ.
Here you go (though I know you're loathe to spend any time understanding shit)
And the obvious way to look at it is to, well… look at it. What are the 'all cause' excess deaths (excluding Covid)…
https://rumble.com/vrtbjf-the-latest-data-on-vaccine-efficacy-and-safety-from-the-uk.html
UK isn't NZ.
You made a claim about vaccines and excess mortality. Untested or unidentified covid cases would be an obvious confounding factor, particularly in a country that used excel to tally test results.
NZ has no such confounding factor. Show us the excess deaths.
edit: meh. CBF with your link – got a few minutes in and it smells to high heaven.
Untested or unidentified covid cases would be an obvious confounding factor
All deaths within 28 days of a +ve test are marked down as Covid deaths. All hospital patients are tested for Covid. All corpses are currently tested for Covid. This "confounding factor" arises how or from where…?
And true to form, McFlock has no interest in actually looking at the scientific evidence, not even when it’s presented on a plate.
Pathetic.
Dude, it's pretty simple. If vaccinations caused excess mortality, NZ would be the poster example to prove it.
Assuming all that is true, you have false negatives, deaths post-28 days, changing policies around testing and classification, and the aforementioned bureaucratic fuckups. Lots of nice things to fudge if someone has an agenda.
But NZ, none of that. Vaccine goes in, deaths go up… or not. Frankly, I'd love to see you try to mash this chart into this chart. I'm sure you're capable of those mental gymnastics.
As for your link, it was going to be a quarter hour of me being fucked off with their bullshit. They'd already set up a bunch of assumptions within a couple of minutes. I often have a quick look at your articles (which usually don't seem to say what you think they say), but your propaganda videos can go spin.
to be fair, people with chronic health conditions were excluded from trials, so we will need other ways of establishing long term reactions eg doing studies on specific cohorts that follow post-vax.
I'm also not yet convinced on the adverse reaction monitoring process. How do they separate out direct adverse reactions from flares and relapses from coincidental conditions and so on?
A large chunk of it is math that blows my mind, with some case investigations and figuring out biological causes if possible.
But mostly math, I think. We're not usually talking something as obvious as smoking and lung cancer (which has something like a 90% attributable risk rate).
fearmongering, it's just a cold dude.
It presents almost precisely as a cold – call it "Omicron cold" if you want. It does not infect lung tissue and therefor does not and cannot progress to pneumonia type symptoms as Delta could.
It clearly does.
edit: nor would I like to be treated by a doctor who has a cold, but that might just be me.
quote – In a potential clue regarding lower severity, they found that Omicron replication was less efficient in deeper lung tissue—more than 10 times lower than the original virus
that's not the same thing as "It does not infect lung tissue"
that's not the same thing as "It does not infect lung tissue"
Actually, it kinda is. Presence and ability to infect are not the same thing.
a 3 log10 lower viral RNA load was detected in the lungs as compared to animals infected with D614G and no infectious virus was detectable in this organ
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.24.474086v1
We show that Omicron replicated faster than all other SARS-CoV-2 in the bronchus but less efficiently in the lung parenchyma.
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1189219/v1
and..had a lower virus load in both the lower and upper respiratory tract. This is also reflected by less extensive inflammatory processes in the lungs.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.26.474085v2
Indeed. Infecting lung tissue. And 70 times higher in the bronchi. Those are also in the lower respiratory system.
Last I checked, the common cold was an acute upper respitary tract infection.
And 70 times higher in the bronchi. Those are also in the lower respiratory system.
Bronchus is the upper airway – ie, not lung tissue. And pneumonia is not something that occurs because of bronchial infection.
sigh. If you're going to make up your own medical terminology, try using different words.
wikipedia:
Encyclopaedia.com:
Just in case you want to try operating on yourself one day, you might want to get the anatomy right.
I will accept your medical judgement on that, for now. The omicron replication found in deep lung tissue I linked to earlier, that could cause pneumonia, though.
By the way, one of your articles you linked to in order to apparently argue that "lower" means "doesn't" mentions something called "bronchopneumonia".
The one about how hamsters are largely safe from covid.
That wouldn't be a subtype of pneumonia involving bronchial infection, would it?
Grim because the hospitals are over-run with admissions because of Omicron? Or grim because any +ve cases have to isolate for a prescribed number of days and hospitals are short staffed as a result?
Covid. Australia has both delta and omicron currently.
One of the ways to prevent hospital overwhelm is to get covid positive staff to self isolate. So they don't spread covid to a) other staff and b) patients.
If they don't protect staff, they're more likely to get covid, and more likely to need time off work. Vicious cycle. Longer term, there are issues of long covid.
Suggesting that they should let covid rip in hospitals is next level. I guess the 'protect the vulnerable' thing doesn't apply any more.
Honestly, I think you don't actually know what public health is.
One of the ways to prevent hospital overwhelm is to get covid positive staff to self isolate
Obviously not.
Isolation rules were set for Delta, and Omicron, besides being very mild by comparison, has a far shorter period of infection than Delta. I don't know what the isolation time in Australia is, but the UK (previously hammered by their "pingdemic) and the US are chopping theirs in half – which some might argue is cynical I guess.
And again. You really do need to fuck the fuck right off with these lies you keep repeating around what I think, suggest or believe.
Australia still has delta.
again, I have no idea what you mean by lies, because you haven't said.
You have maintained that I do not believe long covid is a thing.
You repeatedly insinuate that I advocate "letting Covid rip"
Clear now?
Yes. Let me address each then.
Long covid. Your comments are often arguments that omicron is mild, and that we should let it take over from delta. We don't know the rate of long covid from omicron yet. Denial here doesn't mean you don't believe it is a thing, it's the ongoing analysis that ignores it/doesn't take it into account.
Letting it rip. If you don't mean we should do that, then just say what you do mean. Pretty sure we've been round this before and you didn't clarify that time either. You appear to argue that in NZ we should let covid take over from delta. I assume you mean by allowing community transmission (because this seems to fit with your general position on covid). If it's not, then just say what your actual position is. How would omicron be allowed to take over from delta without community transmission?
Your comments are often arguments that omicron is mild
It is.
that we should let it take over from delta
Of course we should!
We don't know the rate of long covid from omicron yet
And we don't know the effects of long covid from Delta.
You appear to argue that in NZ we should let covid take over from delta
Yes.
I assume you mean by allowing community transmission
From the apparent infectiousness of Omicron, I wouldn't think there's much in the way of "allowing" community spread. There will be community spread and "the Public Health experts" ought to put in place whatever protections for the vulnerable that they deem fit. ( So expect zero messaging beyond "vaccinate")
that doesn't answer the question though. We do in fact keep omicron out currently by a raft of measures. You haven't said which if any we should retain. The implication I've taken from your comments is that we shouldn't try and constrain it, instead allow it into the community and protect vulnerable people. I'm asking you to explain what that would look like in detail eg borders opened? No MiQ? No vax pass or neg test on planes? No traffic light system? No scanning/signing in? What?
Or we keep all that in place?
Why would people with Omicron be kept in MIQ if it's endemic?
Vaccine passports are only there as a foot through the door for wider surveillance. They should never have been introduced in the first instance – they were a political decision, not a public health one.
The traffic light system is a downright farce from a medical perspective, and if you had read the links in the comment you saw fit to derail before, you'd already know that Pfizer is involved in the Chinese traffic light system that we are probably 'meant' to be transitioned to – where instead of physical locations/areas being red/orange or green, an individual's pass turns green/red/orange and their movement restricted accordingly (by dint of scanning/signing in, which will be augmented by people physically checking a persons phone bound status if scanning appears to be being by-passed )
@Bill,
In the absence of direct answers to my question, I will infer the following (and really, if you want me to stop guessing what you mean, you will have to actually say),
If that isn't a let it rip strategy I don't know what is. I guess you haven't said what you want to happen at the borders, but this is the point: you believe something about omicron solving the pandemic and that we should just protect vulnerable people, but there's no actual real life basis to what you think we should be doing differently.
For instance, we still have delta in the community. Removing MiQ would lead to people dying, people getting long covid, and probably the health system being overrun and all the flow on effects from that including short, medium and long term impact on health care workers.
If you have a theory about how to let omicron become endemic (it's not endemic in NZ, we don't have any cases in the community yet), then maybe say what that is, because otherwise I'm going with 'let it rip and vulnerable people can look after themselves*'. It's a pretty natural conclusion from what you are saying.
Yes, there are important, multiple issues about government overreach that need addressing as well.
*vaccines and self care.
So isolate those known to have Delta for the mandatory 10 days or whatever it is, and have a shorter term of isolation for Omicron – ie, follow the science.
Funnily enough, I trust public health experts to understand how hospitals work in a pandemic situation. You believe that omicron is relatively harmless (doesn't kill anyone, is just a cold). Public health by definition has to be conservative.
You believe that…
No Weka. It's what scientific research from source after source after source is showing.
you just said that omicron doesn't infect the lungs (quote: … It does not infect lung tissue…) and McFlock put up a link showing that it does.
if you mean that omicron infects the lungs to a much lesser degree, than say that. Because otherwise what you are saying sounds like a nonsense and in the absence of you providing source material it's just a bunch of FB reckons.
One reason that this matters, from a public health perspective, is that we still may have a shit load of people with serious infections from omicron despite it being less severe. More people being infected with a less severe illness still means a lot of people with severe illness. When they say less severe they're not saying less severe for everyone.
There is zero data from any country further through the Omicron wave than Australia showing " a shit load of people with serious infections from omicron"
and McFlock put up a link showing that it does.
To reiterate, presence is not the same as infection. The links and what-not are in the principle response to that confusion between a presence being detected and infection being detected.
@Bill, what's the long covid rate from asymptomatic omicron?
NSW nursing staff who are Covid positive are working alongside those who are still not infected and their patients because of staff shortages. This is the result of the effects of the surge in Omicron infection that has overwhelmed NSW Health. The article that was linked to refers to a lack of prior planning for such an eventuality and does not explore just how severe Omicron is compared to Delta. As Weka points out, both Delta and Omicron are circulating together (in all Australian states apart from WA). This would also be the situation in NZ if Omicron leaked out.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jan/03/covid-positive-nurses-are-working-in-nsw-hospitals-due-to-severe-staffing-shortages
This would also be the situation in NZ if Omicron leaked out.
Would it? What are the current Delta numbers, bearing in mind that Omicron displaces Delta.
Just a guess, but assuming NZs Public Health wallahs have already taken necessary protective measures for the vulnerable amongst us, then Omicron would spread far faster and wider than Delta supplying everyone it touched with immunity to any remaining Delta.
What does that mean?
I thought from previous comments you were touting yourself as somewhat of an expert on public health, no?
Double vaccination does not a lot. We know that. If the idea is have vulnerable people triple jabbed, then contingent on the time from when they received their second injection, they ought to be offered a third.
And (of course the stuff the wallahs have no interest in this) get the info on Vit D and other simple, and hitherto unmessaged, protective measures out there.
Well I understand what public health actually is.
You assert that. Meanwhile, actual public health experts have explained in what ways double vaccination helps protect people and the population from covid. Double vaccination helps protect from delta and this protection wanes over time.
I guess there's some semantic arse covering in 'not a lot', but it's just ridiculous to argue that vaccination doesn't help. We wouldn't swap from delta to omicron overnight.
Triple jabbed – do you mean the booster or the third vax?
We know that vaccination is imperfect. So rather than protecting vulnerable people from exposure, you seem to be arguing that we should let them be exposed and take their chances with the imperfect vaccine and waning immunity.
What's the deal with the 6 months between second vax and booster, given the proposed switch from delta to omicron? What do you suggest in the meantime?
And how would we protect everyone that need protection (assuming we could even figure out who that is) when not everyone gets boostered or 3rd vax at the same time?
which would be what exactly?
No. Again. The studies. Read the studies. Look at the research. I'm not simply "asserting" anything. Double vaccination and protection from Omicron isn't much of an anything – it waltzes past.
Booster and triple jabbed are one and the same thing, no? 3x Pfizer.
Other protective measures might include (but would not be limited to) zinc, Vit D, Vit K2..and where relevant,losing weight, cutting down sugar intake, getting good rest/sleep, generally eating healthier.
And if the science had been followed, ivermectin would be available and worth taking as either a preventative medicine or to lessen effects upon infection. But, y'know, "horse paste" and a whelter of other propaganda/misinformation leading up to it being essentially banned in NZ in spite of its efficacy in place like Uttar Pradesh and (arguably) Japan.
I don't know if it's permitted in NZ, but hydroxychloroquine with zinc has been shown to help if given in the early stages of infection (But again, propaganda and deliberately sabotaged trials has left that one largely off the table)
Absent both ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, there are still multiple fronts aside from injections and physical measures that people could be alerted to and encouraged on.
We still have delta. So does Australia. Omicron doesn't take over one night, we would have a period of time where we have both.
From what I can tell it's the same drug but the timing is quite different. The timing matters a great deal.
And for the people that can't do those things? You know, poor people, Māori, disabled people. I mean, I'm all for it, and have actively practiced this for decades.
But you can't get the population of a country to good natural immune status just like that. It takes time. Someone who has been living on white bread and coke for the past ten years isn't going to suddenly get strong immunity by eating healthier in the next month. Every little bit helps of course, but getting the kind of full nutritional status you are talking about is a process. And it depends on the gut functioning of the person as well if they can even absorb enough nutrients.
Lots of people cannot afford the kind of diet that makes a difference, or don't have the skills at managing that (eg cooking, knowing what to buy).
Many people have insomnia and other sleep disturbances that aren't easily addressed by 'getting good rest/sleep'. Many people use stimulants like sugar and coffee to keep themselves going and if they stop that suddenly it causes stress (psychological and physiological).
All the things you suggest there should be happening, but they're not and getting them to happen would be a long term plan.
Advocating personal responsibility during a public health crisis is hugely problematic politically if that is accompanied by advocating for less collective measures. At this point anyone able to do that kind of self care has to be on top of the public health response, not instead of. Because of vulnerable people.
How do I know this? Because I've spent decades in communities of people outside the mainstream who do exactly what you are saying to manage their health, myself included. Many of those people are also alternative health practitioners with training in their own fields and how our bodies work in a western medical frame. And they mostly said from early in the pandemic: do all the self care things that help but this alone will not protect you adequately from covid, get vaccinated as well for best protection. This is people in countries that had major covid early on alongside hospital overrun. And they're still saying that.
Sure, but we don't have those trials done, so why are you bringing this up in a conversation about how vulnerable people can be protected now, given you are advocating letting covid into the community now (delta and omicron)?
It's worth clarifying here that I see covid vaccination as a personal choice, and what I am talking about above is collective responsibility. This is what public health does, it protects the collective. Lots of flaws in how it does that, but that is its purpose.
I find much of the push back against the government's pandemic response to be libertarian, and this has as many political problems as liberals' acceptance of authoritarianism.
If the basis of let 'omicron naturalise' is personal responsibility and freedom, then that undermines socialism in ways that need to be debated as much as surveillance issues from the authoritarian state.
Public health has protected many of us for a long time, we shouldn't give that up so casually.
Double jabs together with other public health measures plus TTIQ protect against infection by Delta and severe Omicron effects, but Omicron's surge means an all round ramped up approach – more pro-active public health measures (distancing, masks, restrictions on crowds), free access to RATs for testing and boosters. These are the things that should have been planned for in the Oz states that have enthusiastically reduced restrictions and haven't been. NZ's delay on border opening hopefully should allow NZ's MOH and politicians not to follow the mess Oz (and other countries) are in. The mess here is not caused by Project Fear or whatever you have called it, but libertarian politicians sidelining health and scientific advice and misjudging the latest phase of the pandemic.
Hard to see how the Feb border opening can happen given how little we still know. I guess if omicron is already in the community and spreading by then it will be an easier decision to make.
https://youtu.be/AFRjz6w3DxM
Authoritarianism is not the best way to deal with a public health emergency.
Turns out there is research about this.
The link above is a discussion between doctors Vinay Prasad and Zeb Janrozik. The second is also a medical ethicist whose specialist area is public health in managing infectious diseases. He argues that evidence shows that respect, and treating people as adults, yields superior results.
It is worth noting that both have also worked as doctors in hospitals during the crisis.
Note above. Didn't intend to embed the video. I had thought it was just the link.
Sorry