Open mike 04/05/2022

88 comments on “Open mike 04/05/2022 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   4 May 2022 at 6:16 am

   There's a dark cloud hanging over the government, according to the AM newsreader. Gosh, I wonder who put it there!

   Luxon’s explaining his poll boost as due to cost of living increases. Govt spending on “middle management & bureaucrats & consultants”. Didn’t say he would target those three groups for emasculation though…
2. Peter 2

   4 May 2022 at 6:28 am

   I've been looking through the US media about the Supreme Court and the abortion issue.

   The state apparently will have the power to dictate to women about their bodies. Conservative people seemingly love that.

   Not so long back, a lot of people, including conservatives I presume, were very upset about the idea of the state imposing on what they should do with their bodies. When mandates to wear masks were mooted and introduced, "my body, my choice" became a mantra.

   Mmmm…
   • Temp ORary 2.1

     4 May 2022 at 6:52 am

     Thank you for discussing this Peter (though I have to assume it was a topic on yesterday's OM, I am a bit short on time these days). I haven't yet read the original Politico piece which published the leaked draft, but this Guardian piece has been useful. Got to agree with Sanders on this one!

     Politico said it received a copy of the draft opinion from a person familiar with the court’s proceedings in the Mississippi case. The draft opinion runs 98 pages, including a 31-page appendix of historical state abortion laws, and includes 118 footnotes.

     The supreme court declined to confirm what would be the worst security breach in its history – regarding one of its most consequential rulings in decades that is sure to enflame America’s deep political divisions. After the Politico story broke, footage posted to social media showed a crowd of protesters gathering outside the supreme court late on Monday night, waving signs and chanting “my body, my choice.”…

     “This decision is a direct assault on the dignity, rights, & lives of women, not to mention decades of settled law,” said the former secretary of state Hillary Clinton. “It will kill and subjugate women even as a vast majority of Americans think abortion should be legal. What an utter disgrace.”

     Senator Bernie Sanders tweeted the the news showed “Congress must pass legislation that codifies Roe v Wade as the law of the land in this country NOW”.

     https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/02/roe-v-wade-abortion-supreme-court-draft-opinion
   • Sabine 2.2

     4 May 2022 at 7:55 am

     This will only affect birthing bodies, and if you are not a birthing body it will not affect you. 🙂

     Well it will affect birthing bodies who would rather not do the birthing thing, but then who cares about these bodies…..really?

     Also the democrats could codify RvsW into law, bugger the filibuster, but then they won’t let go of the filibuster, so rather then make this ‘law’ law, they will use it to grandstand, cry woe betide the bodies we can not define as anything, and please send us money much money for the mid term elections.

     Never mind the last person appointed to the supreme court could not define a birthing body as a thing because they are not a biologist. Maybe instead of hiring supreme court justices they should hire biologists, they would then make more sense.
     • weka 2.2.1

       4 May 2022 at 8:47 am

       thought of you this morning when I saw this tweet (2nd one)

       https://twitter.com/RogerTidy/status/1521398161172058112
       • weka 2.2.1.1

         4 May 2022 at 8:48 am

         they were replying to this disgrace,

         https://twitter.com/StateRepHong/status/1521298873859334145
         • Visubversa 2.2.1.1.1

           4 May 2022 at 8:57 am

           That is almost as good as The Lancet's front cover talking about "Bodies with vaginas".
           • weka 2.2.1.1.1.1

             4 May 2022 at 9:04 am

             She's getting well ratio-ed. I'd have thought politicians would understand that at least.
             • Sabine …

               4 May 2022 at 10:25 am

               Why would you think that? that is the same left that nominated a person to the US Supreme Court as the 'first black woman' who then could not define what a “woman” was as that nominated cervix haver was not a biologist.

               At some stage one must come to the conclusion that the left and the right are working hand in hand to dismantle womens rights and to redefine just who is a woman.
               And the birthing bodies are not woman and i would assume in the eyes of many left and right are not even human. Just a thing that makes babies, sandwiches and which is nice to have around for ‘sex’.
               • Peter …

                 4 May 2022 at 11:11 am

                 A person trying to be on the US Supreme Court as the 'first black woman' defining what a “woman” was would have been pilloried, sneered at and treated with absolute contempt.

                 So she said what she said (or didn't say) and was attacked, pilloried, sneered at and treated with absolute contempt.

                 What should she have said to Ted Cruz when he asked the questio? "Fuck off you low-life wanker."

                 For that she would have been attacked, pilloried, sneered at and treated with absolute contempt. And everyone would have got on and voted as they eventually did. (Although some Republicans may have changed to vote for Jackson for boldly and accurately describing Cruz.
                 • Sabine …

                   4 May 2022 at 11:22 am

                   She could have said to much laughter ( and of that i am actually sure) something like this:

                   I am the first black 'woman' nominee to the Supreme court and last i checked i was / still am a 'woman', and also i am black.

                   or this

                   The President and the Democratic Party who support my nomination seem to believe that i am a woman. 🙂

                   Anything but ' I don't know'. I guess the biologist part was to be the fun part but that did not work.

                   So yeah, the left can't, won't define woman because they are scared of men who identify as 'woman' (what ever that means considering that we can't define the word anymore) or the lobby that pulls the TWAW and thus will lose. You can not defend what you can't name, and you can not cry 'sex based rights' if you want to pretend that sex is not important and that only an imagined gender needs to be promoted/respected/given privileges too.

                   And this Supreme Court is now seated with people who are there to abolish womans right and with a few people who don't know what women are in the first place. And this is by the choices of both parties.

                   Yeah, i guess the men in the US will have to get used to having many more children, or to wear condoms, or get vasectomies, or shoot in the air in order to prevent pregnancy, oh and abstinece of course that too will prevent unwanted children. Or find partners for sex that are not birthing bodies.

                   It is not as if the the birthing bodies are going to be the ones deciding how many times that body is gonna give birth to.
                 • Anker …

                   4 May 2022 at 12:52 pm

                   • Good to see you sticking up for a women, who was the first black Supreme Court Judge. Really it is.

                   but for us ordinary women and the likes of the women in Speak Up for Women, we face abuse and the ridiculous smear that we are bigots and transphobes. Some of us have even been cancelled from Pride (lesbians I am talking about here) and even had the police called on them by the Pride organisers.

                   I know it is hard for women in this climate to speak up for biological reality. Some of us have the courage of our convictions. Given the new Supreme Court judge was going to be pilloried anyway, she had some choices about what she would be pilloried about.
                 • weka …

                   4 May 2022 at 6:26 pm

                   What happened with Cruz?

                   re the tweet, all she had to do was say women and non binary people. Birthing bodies is demeaning and dehumanising, there’s just no way around objectifying women like that
               • Tabletennis …

                 4 May 2022 at 5:35 pm

                 Birthing bodies have a right to abortions.

                 But that is not what a birthing body wants, they do not want to birth – they want an abortion- which makes them 'non-birthing' bodies aka men, and as a result men gets to decide on abortions
           • Molly 2.2.1.1.1.2

             4 May 2022 at 11:21 am

             Hang on visubversa, that's a bit old hat…. bodies with vaginas…

             Don'tcha know that "bodies with vaginas" are now exclusively men?

             Women are bodies with "front holes".

             (Anyone on the fence reading this, finally thinking…. WTF?!)

             Source: https://assets2.hrc.org/files/assets/resources/Trans_Safer_Sex_Guide_FINAL.pdf

             https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ84OxCX0AMAAXp?format=jpg&name=large

             And to continue the institutional confusion of sex and gender identity, and the contortions some will go to in an attempt to avoid using the word women to mean… women.:

             Students of midwifery at Edinburgh Napier University are being taught that they may need to assist a ‘birthing person’ who has male genitalia and a prostate gland.

             A module guide about providing safe care in childbirth told students, “It is important to note that while most times the birthing person will have female genitalia, you may be caring for a pregnant or birthing person who is transitioning from male to female and may still have external male genitalia”.

             It went on, “You need to be familiar with the catheterisation procedure for both female and male anatomy… Male persons should be warned of discomfort as the deflated balloon passes through the prostate gland”. It also talks about “Ensuring the scrotal area is covered”.

             Since the story was first published by Reduxx, the guide has been edited. Now, however, it is even more confusing as it suggests that midwives may be caring for biological females who have a penis.

             Several experts have criticised the university, describing this course material as ‘remarkably ignorant’ and ‘dangerous’.

             Kat Barber, the co-founder of the Sex Not Gender Nurses and Midwives group told The Telegraph, “This policy reads to me as though it is inclusive to the point of nonsense…What's more concerning is that the students have had to take to journalism to ask questions about it, which tells me a lot about the state that our nursing and midwifery institutions are in, who should be able to ask questions”.

             https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/28/midwifery-students-taught-help-men-give-birth/
             • Visubversa …

               4 May 2022 at 4:43 pm

               You could not make this stuff up – could you? See the recently released paper on Perinatal Mental Health from the Helen Clark Foundation. I know that kissing up to Gender Ideology is now a requirement for obtaining any sort of public or private $$$$ – but this paper indulges in some extraordinary linguistic contortions to avoid using the heretical word "woman" in any sort of discussion about actually having babies.
   • Ross 2.3

     4 May 2022 at 8:15 am

     The state apparently will have the power to dictate to women about their bodies.

     You might wish to explain what the problem is with the State having so much power. In New Zealand, the State introduced vaccine mandates. Experienced professionals lost their jobs as a result of declining the vaccine. The right to an abortion, like the right to speak freely, isn’t absolute.

     As for wearing masks, they’re useless.

     https://www.researchgate.net/publication/360320982_The_Bangladesh_Mask_study_a_Bayesian_perspective?channel=doi&linkId=62703fd83a23744a725db627&showFulltext=true
     • Peter 2.3.1

       4 May 2022 at 9:36 am

       I had to go to hospital a fortnight ago. The staff who tended me wore masks. (I did too.) I did not tell them masks were useless.

       I have to go back to have something else done. Should I tell them masks are useless?
       • Molly 2.3.1.1

         4 May 2022 at 11:26 am

         You could. But ties could also be considered useless, and yet people wear them still.

         I had the experience of being in a waiting room at hospital with a woman loudly declaring she didn't need a mask. She was in a waiting room with people undergoing chemotherapy. No concern for elevating their already high anxiety and stress levels by adding another possible risk factor to their health. No consideration of the fact that even a normal cold or infection may be hindered from transmission.

         You have no idea of the health or immunity of others in the hospital environment by looking at them. They are often vulnerable to any infection – not just Covid.

         If you think of it as a courtesy, then perhaps you will not have to justify it to yourself in such black and white terms. A hospital appointment is not necessarily a long time to wear a mask in most cases.
     • joe90 2.3.2

       4 May 2022 at 10:08 am

       As for wearing masks, they’re useless.

       An anti-vaxx loon's un-reviewed pre-print concluded that a prior study was flawed.

       FIFY.

       /

       Academics from large British universities have put their names to an “extremely irresponsible” document that claims the spike in second wave deaths may have been caused by vaccines.

       […]

       The report, described as “ridiculous” and “bizarre” by other senior scientists, is produced by Hart, a lockdown-sceptic group whose members include four academics at Queen Mary University of London, and three from the University of Nottingham.

       Among the 41 academics named in its foreword, several of whom subsequently promoted it on social media, are Ellen Townsend, professor of psychology at Nottingham University, and the group’s spokeswoman, Marilyn James, professor of health economics at the University of Nottingham, and Norman Fenton, professor of risk information management, Queen Mary University of London.

       https://archive.ph/fWLZG (thetimes)
     • AB 2.3.3

       4 May 2022 at 11:21 am

       Strictly speaking – vaccine mandates did not affect people's bodies – nobody was absolutely required to have a vaccine or not have one. In certain occupations it would affect your livelihood (not your body) if you didn't have one – because you were deemed an unacceptable risk to others. So I find the comparison with pregnancy & childbirth a bit unserious or frivolous.

       You are correct though that the right to an abortion is not unlimited – just about everyone recognises that at some point the rights of the foetus come into play. The more conservatively this point is set by the law, then the greater the obligation of the state to help women avoid ending up in terrible situations, However, what we observe in reality is that strict the abortion laws are usually accompanied by minimal social support – and we can interpret this particularly vicious combination only as a deliberate form of enslavement and subordination.
       • Ross 2.3.3.1

         4 May 2022 at 12:37 pm

         nobody was absolutely required to have a vaccine or not have one.

         To continue in their employment, some workers were required to be vaccinated. Some workers were terminated because they refused to do so. Women who want an abortion don’t have an absolute right to an abortion. Nevertheless, those wanting an abortion will likely be able to get one.

         “it would affect your livelihood (not your body)“

         But for some it did affect their body. The medical profession and ACC can attest to that.
   • weka 2.4

     4 May 2022 at 8:51 am

     The state apparently will have the power to dictate to women about their bodies.

     The state already has that power, which is why we have abortion laws in the first place. If women had sovereignty over their own bodies, abortion would be like any other medical procedure not needing special legislation.

     Women's rights are still up for debate and we are a long way from them being safe.
     • Incognito 2.4.1

       4 May 2022 at 2:57 pm

       Not all medical interventions/procedures are equal. Abortion is not like a wisdom tooth extraction. Even a flu shot requires filling out and signing a consent form. Some people (F & M) consider abortion a life-or-death decision and if one considers for a moment the hoops & hurdles for another life-or-death decision such as medically-assisted euthanasia one can fairly easily see that abortion is and cannot be simply (!) viewed as a decision by the woman alone, i.e. strictly and purely as a woman’s sovereignty over her own body.

       Another issue is the quality of life, of both the child and the mother; the latter usually has the responsibility of primary caregiver. These are definitely secondary arguments, but a neoliberal (and utilitarian) argument may include QUALYs too (although not necessarily viewing life as a disease!).

       I do have fairly close-up experience with abortion and suffice to say it is complex and an emotional rollercoaster – the emotional burden (scars) of either decision (to abort or not to abort) can last a lifetime and negatively affect multiple people.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   4 May 2022 at 6:33 am

   John Herlihy was re-elected for a third term as president of the Republic of Whangamōmona (population 126) in 2021.

   The BBC article features Whangamōmona’s Republic day, which takes place every other January after a ‘revolt’ in November 1989 over Government boundary changes that riled locals up enough to declare themselves independent… Herlihy said residents love sharing a beer with new tourists. The Whangamōmona hotel and bar can sleepup to 34 people and its lodge can host up to10.

   Republicans hot to trot ought to put it on their calendar: "the next Republic day, which is set for January 2023." Pre-book!

   Vicki Pratt, who owns the Whangamōmona Hotel with her husband, Richard, said the BBC article would advertise the republic at a scale that money couldn’t buy to an audience outside New Zealand.

   The BBC publicity is the biggest boost for the area since travel authority Lonely Planet named Taranaki as the second-best region in the world to visit in 2017.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/128512058/bbc-coverage-gives-isolated-whangammona-an-international-tourism-audience
4. Temp ORary 4

   4 May 2022 at 6:44 am

   Yesterday was a big news day! I was dealing with stuff during school hours and kids afterwards, so didn't get to have a look in till nearly midnight.

   • Roe v Wade set to be repealed by SCOTUS

   https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/02/roe-v-wade-abortion-supreme-court-draft-opinion

   • Incompetently murderous Dunedin Central Countdown lackwit convicted to minimum 6 years and (!Trigger Warning!) details of attack published

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/crime/victim-hails-hero-wife-after-countdown-stabber-jailed

   • Ardern's former deputy PM trespassed from parliament, along with other would-be insurrectionists.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/466382/parties-meet-to-discuss-trespass-notices-for-protesters

   So what is the lead story and most of Daily Review (haven't looked at yesterday's OM yet) on TS about? Poll results. It's more than a year to the general election, and the area where political action is likely to be effective this year will be the local body elections. Polling about that, I would be interested in seeing,

   The horse-race coverage of parliament's up and downs is a bit irrelevant and tedious – to me, at least.
5. Dennis Frank 5

   4 May 2022 at 6:55 am

   Progress = tech + economy. That's a formula proven by history. However, the key driver is only evident in the tacit psychological sub-text – incentive structures. Inventors produce new tech when they get incentivised to do so. For example, the genesis of mass production, and the instance provided here:

   In 1798 Congress authorized an extraordinary purchase of muskets from the inventor Eli Whitney, who was at the time struggling and in debt. Congress offered him an unprecedented contract to provide 10,000 muskets within twenty-eight months. This was at a time when the average production rate was one musket per worker per week.

   Getting the muskets was only part of what Congress accomplished: this was a way to induce, and to finance, a mass-production industry for the United States. Whitney worked round the clock, developed America's first mass-production equipment, and put on a show for the congressmen. He brought a set of disassembled musket locks to Washington and invited congressmen to fit the pieces together themselves—showing that the age of standardized parts had arrived.

   "The nascent American arms industry led where the rest of manufacturing followed," Perret concluded. "Far from being left behind by the Industrial Revolution the United States, in a single decade and thanks largely to one man, had suddenly burst into the front rank." America took this step not by waiting for it to occur but by deliberately promoting the desired result.

   https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1993/12/how-the-world-works/305854/

   Call it a public/private partnership and you won't be wrong. But the key point is motivation to generate the required result. And the tech produced that result by design of a system: organised labour = info + materials + energy x time (process).

   Should the govt get out of the way & let industry do it's thing? Hell no! The example given shows why not. All you'd get is bau – moronic neoliberalism. Instead, the positive alternative is intelligent design. Labour & National will have to break with tradition and recruit intelligent designers instead of morons. To make progress happen.
6. Dennis Frank 6

   4 May 2022 at 7:55 am

   So looks like the Greens have done something interesting for a change:

   Other changes to the constitution included adopting a te ao Māori organisational framework, and establishing a new kaunihera (council) and member assemblies to provide democratic input for internal decisions, while disestablishing the party's executive.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/green-party-co-leaders-say-no-changes-afoot-after-scrapping-male-rule-adding-maori-requirement/4WBIHYSIJMUOHFV4AP6NZHHANM/

   Points to the media headline you didn't see: Greens kill own governance structure! The Exec has maintained hegemony over the party for 30 years, since it replaced the Green Council. That group was democratically elected to do strategic guidance, and it established the Executive to do admin & governance.

   Quite why the GC became defunct was never clear to me at the time – I was in charge of the rules process but most of the other activists were busy steering the Greens into the Alliance. I suspect the GC suffered from leftist destabilisation in consequence. Anyway, looks like a belated recognition of the lack has prompted a strategic reversal.

   Since the Exec has been operating like a leftist cabal in recent years, alienation in the ranks seems to have produced a democratic rebellion. Good luck with that – control freaks are good at jumping horses in mid-ride so it could just rearrange the deckchairs.
   • RedLogix 6.1

     4 May 2022 at 8:36 am

     Interesting indeed. Especially in conjunction with the requirement that one party co-leader must also be Maori.

     Somewhere in a 1970’s issue of Craccum I recall reading a droll line about the ideal person according to intersectional theory was a one-legged, Maori, lesbian ditch-digger. Seems the Greens are well on their way to nirvana.
     • Robert Guyton 6.1.1

       4 May 2022 at 8:54 am

       Still thinking at the level of a low-brow university magazine is disappointing, RedLogix.
       • Dennis Frank 6.1.1.1

         4 May 2022 at 8:58 am

         Plenty of stuff from early '70s Craccum in my archives, all rather high-brow! But could be that Muldoon's accession in '75 killed that culture & reduced the students to mumbling incoherence…
         • Robert Guyton 6.1.1.1.1

           4 May 2022 at 10:10 am

           You don't regard the reference RedLogix made as "high-brow" do you, Dennis?
           • Dennis Frank 6.1.1.1.1.1

             4 May 2022 at 10:25 am

             You mean intersectional theory? Wasn't around back then. Does seem somewhat intellectual though. I suspect an academic dreamt it up.

             Or did you mean "a one-legged, Maori, lesbian ditch-digger"? Somewhat hypothetical, perhaps, but employing multi-dimensional categorisation as a nexus of identity politics for illustrative purposes does seem high-brow…
             • Robert Guyton …

               4 May 2022 at 11:09 am

               "one-legged" is a high-brow portrayal of people with disabilities?

               Hmmmm….
               • Dennis Frank …

                 4 May 2022 at 11:16 am

                 You're right to suggest that a person with one leg is disabled, and that noting the fact is merely common sense. Not high-brow in itself. It's the holistic usage of the example via postmodernism that seems cerebral.
       • RedLogix 6.1.1.2

         4 May 2022 at 9:02 am

         I agree – would have hoped the Greens well past the 70's by now.
         • Robert Guyton 6.1.1.2.1

           4 May 2022 at 10:13 am

           You're portraying present Green discussions/decisions as "70's", RedLogix and would have us believe your portrayal as real.

           Why?
           • Dennis Frank 6.1.1.2.1.1

             4 May 2022 at 10:29 am

             Realistic inasmuch as the schism between the authentic Greens & the leftists that killed Values back then is still causing problems. The first bunch want to build consensus and the second bunch just wannabe partisans.
     • Temp ORary 6.1.2

       4 May 2022 at 10:09 am

       The Green Party constitution no longer requires a male co-leader, instead requiring one woman and one person of any gender, plus a requirement that one must be Māori.

       The finer details of the review of the party's constitution are yet to be revealed after the changes were voted in by party members at a special meeting over the weekend…
       [deleted]

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/466386/green-party-leaders-proud-of-constitution-changes

       Personally I am not that keen on Shaw remaining as coleader. But I am not currently a GP member either. It seems that Davidson deserves a crack at being senior coleader before the 2026 (maybe 2027 if Labour gets a 4year term ammendment through). The 2017 debacle with Clendon (good riddance) & Graham (more of a loss) leaving the party before Turei stood down goes a long way to explaining the current gender imbalance in GP MPs.

       Yes, the list rankings are technically influenced by gender and ethnicity (plus location – minimum 10% from Te Wai Pounamu from memory, which was mooted as requirement for coleader last year, but must have been too tricky to implement), but by far the biggest determinant of list ranking is who is currently an MP, with the public profile that brings, at the time of the vote.
       • weka 6.1.2.1

         4 May 2022 at 10:32 am

         I've cut out some of your long copypasta. Please don't make them so long, it's a hassle for scrollers esp on phones. Selected copy and pastes to support your points works better. ka pai the link.
         • Temp ORary 6.1.2.1.1

           4 May 2022 at 1:42 pm

           The link was from RL above (@ 6.1), I was quoting from it mainly because they hadn't. I was going to trim and tie the quote to the comment more, but then my number got called in the waiting room and I pushed publish without properly proofreading. I have no idea what those grey slashes at the bottom of the comment are doing there. Also I omitted the age criteria in party list ranking; with some proportion having to be under 35, but can't recall the details off the top of my head.

           My conclusion was going to be that the GP should ditch Shaw (with due recognition for his work these past 7 years) and get Tuiono in his place. Though I think I have said as much before, if not on this site, then elsewhere.
   • weka 6.2

     4 May 2022 at 9:03 am

     Scratching my head at your commentary. The changes you quote look entirely consistent with GP values, policy and direction around democracy. But we are working off very little information. Need to see the new constitution.
     • Dennis Frank 6.2.1

       4 May 2022 at 9:18 am

       Need to see the new constitution.

       It would be helpful. If they intend to prove the operation is democratic, they will put it on the public part of their website. Don't hold your breathe.

       I'm just being sceptical though. Wouldn't surprise me if they're motivated by a spirit of authenticity in configuring the new process. Perhaps some journo will attempt an in-depth description of these changes…
       • weka 6.2.1.1

         4 May 2022 at 9:37 am

         Political party constitutions get published on the Electoral Commission's website. I expect the GP one will be updated at some point. Democracy would be explaining that process to the public and giving a timeframe.

         https://elections.nz/democracy-in-nz/political-parties-in-new-zealand/register-of-political-parties/
         • Dennis Frank 6.2.1.1.1

           4 May 2022 at 10:12 am

           
   • solkta 6.3

     4 May 2022 at 10:24 am

     What a load of crap. If people don't like the Exec then they should get along to their province AGM and vote for a different Executive Networker, or even run for that office themselves.

     (The only voting positions on the Green Party Executive are the Executive Networkers who are elected by and responsible to the Province. The Co-convenors of the Exec do not even get a vote. Any Exec Net can force a vote on any issue and the status quo stands unless a 75% vote can be achieved.)
     • weka 6.3.1

       4 May 2022 at 10:33 am

       have you seen the proposals that were voted on? Are they in the public domain?
       • solkta 6.3.1.1

         4 May 2022 at 10:43 am

         I've been taking a break so not directly engaged at the moment, but i have been aware that these proposed changes have been going through the process. An email sent on Sunday said that they are "working on a publishable version of the final new constitution and will make that available as soon as it is ready." It says that there were some minor changes made at the SGM.

         (The only voting members at an SGM or AGM are delegates from branches.)
         • weka 6.3.1.1.1

           4 May 2022 at 11:13 am

           it's a shame the party isn't front footing this and is leaving it to Hooton and the Herald to establish the narrative. Shaw's corridor statement yesterday nonetheless.
         • weka 6.3.1.1.2

           4 May 2022 at 11:14 am

           It says that there were some minor changes made at the SGM.

           Really? These are hardly minor changes. Do they mean other changes (that are minor)?
           • solkta 6.3.1.1.2.1

             4 May 2022 at 11:21 am

             Minor changes made to the proposals put to the SGM.
             • weka …

               4 May 2022 at 11:23 am

               👍
     • Dennis Frank 6.3.2

       4 May 2022 at 10:35 am

       Possible the Herald reporter got it wrong, I suppose. We await confirmation that the decision to disestablish the Executive has actually been made…
       • solkta 6.3.2.1

         4 May 2022 at 10:59 am

         Your statements were historical. Just because the structure has changed doesn't make your statements true.
         • Dennis Frank 6.3.2.1.1

           4 May 2022 at 11:12 am

           The relation between history and truth is forever fraught..
   • Jimmy 6.4

     4 May 2022 at 11:54 am

     Maybe Chloe will be a co leader sooner than I thought.
7. joe90 7

   4 May 2022 at 10:23 am

   It's pretty legal…

   /

   
8. adam 8

   4 May 2022 at 10:29 am

   Art, and damn fine social commentary. Quite impressive that a 5 minutes video can strip our society bare.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONj9cvHCado
9. dv 9

   4 May 2022 at 11:07 am

   See anz profit was 968m

   That's about 1000$ per customer!!!!!! PROFIT!!!!
10. Dennis Frank 10

    4 May 2022 at 11:32 am

    Winston's play to re-enter parliament as the spearhead of the Rebel Alliance:

    Former deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters says he will seek a judicial review of the decision to trespass him from Parliament.

    "This is not about whether former Members of Parliament should be treated differently to others who were at the protest – they should not. This is about fairness, freedoms, democracy, and one law for all New Zealanders," he said in a statement. "It is my intention to seek a precedent on behalf of the hundreds of others who were unreasonably and therefore unlawfully trespassed for peacefully protesting."

    He says he has consulted with lawyers and will be setting up "a way to sign up to support this action and to help fund its costs". "Watch this space," he tweeted. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/05/winston-peters-seeks-judicial-review-of-trespass-decision.html

    Are the rebels good for 5% on next election day? We know they're not really allied, but his spearhead could seem a useful tool for them.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • weka 10.1

      4 May 2022 at 11:39 am

      wrong post?
      • Dennis Frank 10.1.1

        4 May 2022 at 11:53 am

        Oh yeah. Thanks for shifting it.
    • Nic the NZer 10.2

      4 May 2022 at 2:56 pm

      Yesterday he definitely said protesters and people speaking to the protesters should be treated differently.
11. Sabine 11

    4 May 2022 at 11:45 am

    this is ok?

    https://twitter.com/kehetauhauaga/status/1520948214282678272
12. pat 12

    4 May 2022 at 12:48 pm

    "One of the big problems is that Parliament and politicians are seen as out of touch, elite, and aloof. To get a better understanding of the problem, in 2018 Parliament actually commissioned a Colmar Brunton survey into how the public feels about Parliament. The results were so bad they were buried.

    Here’s what New Zealanders think of Parliament:

    • 21% “feel a sense of ownership of Parliament”
    • 16% “feel connected to Parliament”
    • 13% “would speak highly of Parliament”
    • 7% “would speak highly of MPs”
    • 27% trusted Parliament, compared to 29% who expressed distrust, and 41% who declared trust in the “civil service”
    • 60% “believe big business and vocal minorities are the ones who influence Parliament”
    • 37% “feel there’s no point in trying to influence Parliament as nothing will change”

    https://democracyproject.nz/2022/05/04/bryce-edwards-trevor-mallards-petty-fiefdom/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=bryce-edwards-trevor-mallards-petty-fiefdom

    Any wonder democracy is under threat?
    • Muttonbird 12.1

      4 May 2022 at 2:23 pm

      I think Dr Bryce might have received a trespass notice and is bitter about it.

      Good job.
    • Dennis Frank 12.2

      4 May 2022 at 3:20 pm

      So sheeple have a balanced view of parliament: "27% trusted Parliament, compared to 29% who expressed distrust", and presumably the other 44% felt that the question made their head hurt so much they couldn't decide.

      Over the course of the weeks of the protest, the site was visited by dozens, if not hundreds, of journalists, politicians, academics, public servants, and so forth. I was one of these – visiting as an academic researcher of politics and political commentator.

      Like many others, I wasn’t there to support the protest in any way but to observe and try to understand what was occurring. In my case, I made it clear that I opposed the politics of those protesting.

      To what extent Winston Peters was opposed to the protesters is less clear. But there has been no attempt for Speaker Mallard to explain why Peters is being legally banned from the place. Was he considered part of the protest? Or in some way encouraging it? We don’t know.

      Could be Mallard's spies were secretly monitoring the heavyweight visitors to assess their stance. If Winston failed to assert his disapproval like Dr Bryce, they would have put a black mark alongside his name.

      All this hooha about the trespass has failed to specify if Mallard's job description includes the power to do that. Perhaps his contract uses vague clauses (as if written by a lawyer seeking to create employment opportunities downstream) and Winston wants a day of judgment.
      • pat 12.2.1

        4 May 2022 at 5:12 pm

        The poll was taken in 2018
13. Molly 13

    4 May 2022 at 12:50 pm

    Bloody hell, XRBristol. Protesting at a WPUK meeting?

    https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/gallery/more-50-trans-activists-protest-7032705

    Why is there a decreasing number of environmental groups that focus on environmental issues?

    https://twitter.com/XRBristol/status/1521462318693076993
    • Sabine 13.1

      4 May 2022 at 1:13 pm

      what is the carbon footprint of a penis inversion and fake boob surgery?
      • Molly 13.1.1

        4 May 2022 at 1:31 pm

        Do you think they have an online calculator for that?
        • Sabine 13.1.1.1

          4 May 2022 at 1:45 pm

          here are some cost curtesy

          How much will it cost? https://genderkit.org.uk/article/vaginoplasty/#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20a%20vaginoplasty,%2C%20clitoroplasty%20and%2For%20labiaplasty.

          The cost of a vaginoplasty performed in the UK along with labiaplasty and clitoroplasty is currently around £15000 (last updated April 2021).

          this is what an arm/leg penis will cost https://genderkit.org.uk/article/phalloplasty/

          If not funded by the NHS, the cost of a phalloplasty performed in the UK is approximately £40,000-£70,000 (last updated July 2020).

          And that is just for hte surgeries, no estimate on costs for all the jazz before surgery and after, and certainly no costs for the several after operations on vagina to keep it from closing up or liposuctions on the fake dick cause the leg material they took tends to grow fat cause females.

          But yeah, someone should ask these dears how many carbon credits they are happy to waste on some fake genitals and hrt for boys to grow tits.
          • Molly 13.1.1.1.1

            4 May 2022 at 1:51 pm

            Well, at least the NHS is swimming in money, and so the high cost of not clinically necessary, and perhaps damaging cosmetic surgery, doesn't impact on the health and wellbeing of all British people.
          • Visubversa 13.1.1.1.2

            4 May 2022 at 5:59 pm

            "Clitoroplasty"? Don't make me laugh. The clitoris has thousands of nerve endings and a whole structure behind its "head". Sewing the head of a penis onto the approximate place does not construct one of those. Plus there is a high rate of failure – they get necrotic and fall off. Neo vaginas are inverted penis offcuts – plus bits of intestine. They do not self clean, so require regular douching. They also require lubrication, and to be kept open by regular use of a "former" to keep them from healing up. Basically, one needs to sit on a dildo for hours every day to keep it open. There is a very high failure rate and expensive correction surgery is frequently required. Jazz Jennings vaginoplasty was done by Dr Marci Bowers who is one of the best in the business, but it still split,
14. Poission 14

    4 May 2022 at 1:42 pm

    RBNZ financial stability report ,highlights an unsustainable housing market ( in a high inflation regime) with higher interest rates coming due to excessive building costs.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/466415/unsustainable-housing-market-poses-risk-to-economy-reserve-bank

    Over the last 40 years we have been fairly consistent with excessive housing prices.

    https://twitter.com/WallStreetSilv/status/1521337905817530369?cxt=HHwWgsC5ufqw8JwqAAAA
    • pat 14.1

      4 May 2022 at 5:02 pm

      Bit late to start considering financial stability as the bubble bursts.
      • Poission 14.1.1

        4 May 2022 at 5:28 pm

        RBA yesterday,Fed tomorrow (likely .5) RBNZ another .5 ( as it does not affect the nz$) and already being priced in.

        Highest yield in the developed world in government bonds and increasing.

        https://twitter.com/RobinBrooksIIF/status/1521562146156466179?cxt=HHwWhsCylbut1p0qAAAA

        On the positive side,only 6500 houses sold last month ( 16500 agents ) so an increased pool of labour will become available shortly.
        • pat 14.1.1.1

          4 May 2022 at 5:38 pm

          Every cloud has a silver lining….though not sure the 'skills' are transferable.

          And the dollar still has plenty of room before it threatens historic lows
          • Poission 14.1.1.1.1

            4 May 2022 at 6:10 pm

            The low dollar works in our favour,as it makes local manufacturing more competitive some what smoothing transport gauging.
            • pat 14.1.1.1.1.1

              4 May 2022 at 6:14 pm

              eventually (if the confidence to invest in local production exists)…. in a net importing nation it is also inflationary.
15. Ad 15

    4 May 2022 at 3:23 pm

    Mallard must resign.

    Reversing the trespass order against Winston Peters shows he has exceptionally poor judgement.

    He's lost confidence of the PM and I bet Hipkins is v dark on it.

    Also shows Shaw to be a vindictive little twerp for piling on with Mallard yesterday.
    • Dennis Frank 15.1

      4 May 2022 at 3:38 pm

      Mallard said that the actual decision to trespass Peters and King was not made by him, but by Parliamentary Security, who he had delegated responsibility to… “I have been working with Police and Parliamentary Security to constantly assess threats to Parliament, and the advice I have received is that it is no longer necessary to retain trespass notices for these five people,” Mallard said in a statement. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300580057/parliament-trespass-trevor-mallard-withdraws-five-trespass-notices-including-winston-peters

      So it just means the afore-mentioned threat assessors changed their mind about Winston being a threat. No big deal. Not a hanging offence. Trev ought not to resign just because someone else changed their mind – it would set a serious precedent.

      Ardern, for instance, might feel obliged to resign because Hipkins changed his mind about mask-wearing being govt strategy recently. Everyone might get palpitations due to anxiety about who was going to change their mind next.
      • Jimmy 15.1.1

        4 May 2022 at 3:57 pm

        Winston 1; Mallard Nil

        "Mallard said that the actual decision to trespass Peters and King was not made by him," Jacinda said "I see it as entirely as a matter for the Speaker how he chooses to deal with the aftermath of the protest and the attendance of protesters," the Prime Minister said.

        Jacinda Ardern, Christopher Luxon won't say if trespassing former National MP Matt King appropriate | Newshub

        Mallard just 'ducking' for cover trying to shift the blame.
        • Nic the NZer 15.1.1.1

          4 May 2022 at 5:11 pm

          Your saving Mallard out for a duck for his (anticipated) resignation?
        • Craig H 15.1.1.2

          6 May 2022 at 4:27 am

          It's absolutely standard operating procedure for ministers and CEs to delegate powers under legislation to staff, and the Speaker's powers are no different in that regard.

          I would be very surprised if a minister or CE was personally involved in issuing trespass notices anywhere else, so I don't expect that of the Speaker either.

          Probably need to rewrite the delegation instrument however to change who makes decisions on trespassing former MPs. A lack of nous on the part of whoever drafted that, and obviously the Speaker for agreeing to it (also a lack of nous shown by whoever did issue the trespass notices in not at least checking in with the Speaker).
16. Muttonbird 16

    4 May 2022 at 4:54 pm

    One of National's attack lines has been dismissed by Adrian Orr today:

    (Orr) told a press conference this morning that the fiscal impulse, which measures the inflationary effects of Government spending, was currently negative, showing the effect of Government spending was contractionary, relative to previous years.

    It seems current Government spending has nothing to do with inflation. Covid relief in 2020 and 2021 certainly added to it but the electorate was very supportive of that.

    So, nowhere for Willis and Luxton to go on this unless they continue to push false narratives.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/nicola-willis-to-robertson-orr-reserve-bank-over-wages-housing-inflation-costs/MUOSZIHMSVTC6VSHYGSZ4QRIMI/
    • Nic the NZer 16.1

      4 May 2022 at 5:26 pm

      The herald reporting however doesn't really note that the oppositions main theory of inflation has it that NZ is presently functioning as high wage economy. If you get your news from the Herald its possible to believe that Willis has a lucid plan for dealing with NZ inflation.

      And even to me (knowing the lingo quite well) some of the governments responses to Willis and Luxon in parliament seemed a bit tangential. It would be much simplified to cotton onto the understanding that

      a) the government can legitimately buy public services in the public interest.

      b) when it does that its employing NZers and residents while paying them income.

      c) aiming for surpluses reduces both the available public services and the income earned in providing those.

      d) unless the public services are directly competing with private goods and services (see Kiwibuild) this has negligible impacts on inflation.
      • Muttonbird 16.1.1

        4 May 2022 at 5:41 pm

        From the article, other than reducing government spending, Willis offered two other suggestions:

        Relieving costs from the economy (and) reducing supply bottlenecks.

        Relieving costs from the economy presumably means tax cuts and throwing open the borders in order to push wages down. Reducing supply bottlenecks probably also means importing huge amounts of cheap labour.

        Where are they all going to live?

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