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Open Mike 04/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 4th, 2018 - 67 comments
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67 comments on “Open Mike 04/10/2018 ”

  1. NZJester 1

    National’s leak investigation widened?

    The investigation period for MPs is from February this year – when the National Party leadership contest began. Staff communications will be investigated from August 1 until August 28. Newshub broke the story of the expenses on August 13.

    Consent to the data or a waiver isn’t necessary, because the staff are employed by Parliamentary Services, the email said.

    Are they extending the leak investigation to cover older leaks to see who was also talking to the press about the leadership contest within National?

    Are they now looking to try and locate all those that are not behind Simon so he can purge them to try and keep his job as leader of the opposition?


  2. Adrian Thornton 2

    The Guardian and The BBC get outed as being biased and liberally distorting facts over Labour and Corbyn yet again (along with pretty much all other UK media) …

    Media Reform Coalition Report
    Labour, Antisemitism and the News
    A disinformation paradigm


    Media lens article
    “Blanket Silence: Corporate Media Ignore New Report Exposing Distorted And Misleading Coverage of Corbyn”


    Yes the privileged media class are exposed yet again as nothing more that gate keepers of the establishment status quo.

    For those of you who might have forgotten here is a similar report exposing the shocking media bias from 2016…

    And the equally shocking Guardian response…

    “Yes, Jeremy Corbyn has suffered a bad press, but where’s the harm? ”

    • Ed 2.1

      Our own media are just as bad.

      • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1

        Definitely heading down that path for sure, although it’s hard to say how they would react to an actual progressive Labour Party and Leader in NZ, probably in much the same way the UK media has I would assume, as they seem to be from a pretty similar class demographic, and most if not all dissenting voices are pretty quickly weeded out as Chomsky describes in ‘Manufacturing Consent’


        • Bill

          …how they would react to an actual progressive Labour Party and Leader in NZ…

          For an indication of that, just reflect on the wall to wall negativity that accompanied Cunliffe’s leadership. Media in NZ eagerly picked up anything coming from the ABC faction within NZ Labour’s caucus and merrily danced around with it to the exclusion of almost anything else…and then feigned ignorance when it came to questions of Cunliffe’s supposed lack of popularity.

          I’ll just note (yet again) for the record, that if NZ Labour had a democratic selection process in line with that of UK Labour – one person/one vote, with no percentages set aside for caucus or unions – then Cunliffe would likely have been re-elected as leader.

          I wonder how that process of democratisation within NZ Labour is coming along? (Is that a bloated corpse I see suspended just below the water’s surface?)

          Another indication can be gleaned from the media’s contemptible pursuit of Metiria Turei’s extended family in search of “dirt” after her WINZ speech, and their focus on “taking her down” to kill off the message she was running with.

          Or…I didn’t look this up. But what was/is the comparative coverage of Marama Davidson’s relaunch of the Green Party’s WINZ policies as against the gossip from NZ First’s conference on “kiwi values”?

          • Adrian Thornton

            Yeah Bill, I know you are right, I just woke up in a particularly good mood this morning, so was being overly generous in my critique of the NZ media, of course there is no question they would go (and have gone) after any progressive politician like a pack of rabid dogs.
            And good reminder on democratic selection process within Labour re Cunliffe too…thanks.

  3. Vlad lays it down…

    “I see that some of your colleagues are pushing the theory that Mr Skripal was almost some kind of human rights activist,” Putin said following a question from a moderator.
    “He was simply a spy. A traitor to the motherland. There is such a concept – a traitor to the motherland. He was one of those.”
    Putin, a former intelligence officer, has angrily decried “traitors” before. He has said he cannot forgive disloyalty and “traitors will kick the bucket”.

    Of Skripal, he said on Wednesday: “He’s simply a scumbag, that’s all.”


    • Adrian Thornton 3.1

      Well he was a double agent, so I guess from Putin’s or for that matter probably most Russians point of view he is all of those things.

      • marty mars 3.1.1

        Was he an agent first?

        • Adrian Thornton

          I have no idea, and am not all that interested either, it all seems like a useless distraction to me.

        • McFlock

          Russian military from the 1970s, went into airborne, joined the GRU after a stint in Afghanistan, became a UK asset in the mid1990s.

          So yeah, he’s a traitor to Russia, in the same way that Manning is to the US, regardless of whether their motives were noble or mercenary.

          But murdering them after they served their sentence is a bit much.

          • Dukeofurl

            Skripal is still alive . Plenty of untraceable ways to kill him off if that was the Russian intention.

            • McFlock

              Thanks for that. I certainly won’t be popping by yours for dinner, if you reckon you can kill someone in an “untraceable” way.

          • Stuart Munro

            Manning’s a bit different – Skripal went over to a hostile foreign power, Manning merely blew the secrets locker open – starting with some stuff, drones killing civilians, that he had a duty to report.

            Manning was constructed as a traitor to save military and political asses, and he clearly lost his shit at some point, but he was not a classical traitor.

            • McFlock

              Manning still intentionally disclosed classified information to her country’s enemies (and everyone else).

              That’s all Skripal did. Or is it not treason if you give it to everyone rather than just a few?

              • shadrach

                Good grief McFlock. Are you happier that I agree with you, or that Judith Collins does?


              • Stuart Munro

                It depends on the nature of the information.

                Although there was a great beat up to claim Manning put US servicemen’s lives in danger, no-one has been able to substantiate that claim, and, there was a genuine public service performed in exposing civilian drone kills, which also endangered them.

                Manning’s case was weakened however, by basically uploading everything.

                “Or is it not treason if you give it to everyone rather than just a few?”

                That judgement lies with the group concerned. A Syrian citizen rebelling against Assad for example, might be called a traitor by the regime, if they are successful however they will likely be judged kindly by their peers.

                Had Manning restricted his upload to the famous videos a strong public interest case could be made that the traitors were those improperly, and therefore illegally, killing civilians.

                There’s interesting ground with the diplomatic chatter, which was very embarrassing to Washington at the time. But embarrassment is not sufficient to construct treason – were Manning to release the hypothetical pee tapes that would not be treason because the damage is to an individual, not the state, and in that instance the content is that individual’s responsibility.

                • McFlock

                  Had Manning done that.
                  But she didn’t.

                  We don’t know whether Skripal’s leaks killed anyone, either, btw.

                  As for rebels, someone within the regime who provides support to the rebels is a traitor to the regime but not the rebels. Not “called”. Actually is.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    “As for rebels, someone within the regime who provides support to the rebels is a traitor to the regime but not the rebels. Not “called”. Actually is.”


                    Much as a regime may like to think so, the construction of treason is only open and shut in the case of external enemies. The notional good citizen has a duty to oppose unjust regimes, and collaborating with them would be treason.

                    • McFlock

                      noun: treason; noun: high treason; plural noun: high treasons

                      the crime of betraying one’s country, especially by attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government.
                      “they were convicted of treason”

                      Nothing to do with “external enemies”.

                      Crimes Act 1961:

                      73 Treason

                      Every one owing allegiance to the Sovereign in right of New Zealand commits treason who, within or outside New Zealand,—

                      kills or wounds or does grievous bodily harm to the Sovereign, or imprisons or restrains her or him; or

                      levies war against New Zealand; or

                      assists an enemy at war with New Zealand, or any armed forces against which New Zealand forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between New Zealand and any other country; or

                      incites or assists any person with force to invade New Zealand; or

                      uses force for the purpose of overthrowing the Government of New Zealand; or

                      conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in this section.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      You can go that way if you’re a hidebound formalist.

                      Not too many folk would call Bonhoeffer a traitor though.

                    • McFlock


                      Just because we might like why someone did what they did, the words that describe what they actually did don’t change meaning.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Just because the group occupying the seats of authority would like to define something as treason, doesn’t make it treason.

                      NZ law will be pretty useless in this respect – there having been a dearth of case law to expose the shortcomings that, in more cosmopolitan states, has necessarily become more developed.

                    • McFlock

                      So you agree with neither a dictionary definition nor even an explicit legal definition of a word, but keep trying to tell me that it means something fundamentally different.


                    • Stuart Munro

                      I’ve done a bit of lexicography and a bit of law – neither are sacred.

                      Treason in the context of a democracy is not the same as treason in a monarchy, in which the monarch enjoys the perfect right to define it in terms of antipathy or disobedience to themselves .

                      Ever since Knox broke the back of divine right politicians don’t get to claim l’estat c’est moi, which means they may from time to time be defied or indeed deposed without treason against the state they are paid and sworn to serve.

                      The legitimacy of such actions is rather dependent on the circumstances – as with the defensible forms of mutiny, it usually requires that the regime fall somewhat short of bona fide good governance, hence Bonhoeffer escapes the traitor label because the regime he opposed had lost legitimacy – a matter of enormous posthumous relief to him no doubt.

                      The dismissal of the Whitlam government by Kerr was on paper just such an instance, employing powers designed to remove a government that did not enjoy the confidence of a majority. It was however a risky move, although the liberal successor government enjoyed a better majority, the action was sufficiently contentious that it has not been repeated and Kerr has spent a lot of time abroad. The justifications for such actions need to be fairly unequivocal.

                    • McFlock

                      Neither might be sacred, but if you’re using a word to communicate an idea to someone else it’s always useful to use conventional definitions rather than making up your own.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Pfft – I use the principle defined one instead of your preferred one.

                      Nothing made up about it.

                      So, by a narrow formalist definition you can call Manning a traitor. What about Assange? The same narrow formalists want to call him one and he’s not even a citizen. He simply can’t be one – he has no duties to the US.

                    • McFlock

                      principle defined one

                      Defined by someone other than you? Where?

                      As for Assange, as you say he can’t be a “traitor” for theManning/wikileaks disclosures if he doesn’t owe allegiance to the USA. Manning did swear allegiance to the USA. Assange never did.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Probably the fundamental principle of democracies is that the people is sovereign.


                      An act that is demonstrably loyal to that sovereignty is not treason however greatly it may inconvenience those (temporarily) serving as official representatives.

                      Swearing allegiance is a curiousity – treason is quite possible without doing so, and having sworn does not oblige one to conceal criminal activity.

                      Not sure I should let you off the Assange hook quite so readily – your fellow formalists are determined to convict even though he is an alien with no duties. Tells us everything we need to know about the integrity of the formalist position.

    • mauī 3.2

      It’s strange the friends we keep…“Down With ‘Moscow-Lovers’! Tory Party Conference Plumbs New Depths in Xenophobia”


      • marty mars 3.2.1

        Great writer

        “… with the only thing missing, guest appearances from Count Dracula and Frankenstein’s Monster. Actually, they probably wouldn’t be allowed in, because they were foreigners.”

        “Gove then launched into a ferocious and extremely personal attack on Corbyn — which began with the words ‘Moscow-loving’ and also included ‘Hamas-hugging’ and ‘NATO-hating’.”

        Ha now I know where the headchopping wordsymphony comes from – the torys lol.

    • Gabby 3.3

      Well to be fair a Russian human rights activist would be a traitor to the Pootiland.

  4. cleangreen 4

    The global financial corruption fleeing ‘US federal agency charged criminal’ George Soros has been funding with over ($250 million US) “The Me too” campaign against President Trump and now against the Cavanaugh nomination in attempting to indict Donald trump and overturn his presidency.

    Funny that the ‘Washington swamp media’ Washington post and NY Times’ are not criticizing his foreign meddling in the US election campaign as actively they were over ‘Russia’s alleged meddling’ isn’t it???

    “Dirty politics” is well and alive in the US now as we saw here in NZ during our 2017 election.


    • alwyn 4.1

      Why on earth would they be criticizing George Soros for his “foreign” meddling, as you put it?
      He is a US citizen. It would be like criticizing any of the MPs we have who hold, in addition to their New Zealand citizenship, that of another country.
      Should we be demanding that JAG be kicked out of the country as she is meddling in our election campaigns and she is a “foreigner”?

      • Dukeofurl 4.1.1

        That cleangreen is a troll is clearly obvious in this. Many other instances like this one.

        • veutoviper

          FGS, no he isn’t a troll. He is an elderly man who has worked hard for various issues in his part of the country for decades. He also has major health problems as a result of exposure to chemicals in his work environment and has had to fight the system for years to get help for that. Just ignore him and leave him alone. AND show a bit of kindness.

          • Dukeofurl

            Kindness ? A troll is a troll and just giving a sob story without corroboration is absurd. ( Bridges leaker has a different sob story)
            CG has a lot of smarts and does press releases for his hobby horse, why cant he speak for himself.
            The site policy specifically rules out this sort of lies in CGs support of Kavanaugh and do we here really want to here blah blah from Fox news
            You have high standards for your posts VV, its a surprise to see you backing this dross.

            • greywarshark

              Why not attack the regular tolls who come here? I suppose you think I am one. Cleangreen does not seem a reasonable target for your ‘robust’ attack.

              Why can’t you just disagree, stating why in a few sentences. You might be right, but he is talking about the USA and if your interest lies there give us the advantage of your accumulateed expertise, and not attack other people who seem genuine but wrong in your eyes.

  5. joe90 5

    Canada has a new boss.

    So first, Clause 32. It’s long-winded and uses code language, but basically, it says that if Canada wants a trade deal with China, it has to notify the Americans about any negotiations, and tell them the substance of those negotiations, and submit the text of any deal, “including any annexes and side instruments” in advance, for American scrutiny, and then, like a puppy, await Washington’s verdict.

    If the Americans don’t like the deal – and it’s a safe bet the Americans aren’t going to like any deal that binds Canada to a rival economic giant – Canada will be summarily excluded from the new version of NAFTA, which will revert, at America’s whim, to a bilateral deal with Mexico.


    In fact, though, Clause 32 goes even further than informing America about any negotiations with China, or giving Washington the text of any deal with China. Clause 32 obliges Canada to inform America, at least three months in advance, of any “intention” to pursue negotiations. It is a certain surrender of sovereignty.


    • Gabby 5.1

      Nice work Trudy.

    • greywarshark 5.2

      Thanks joe 90
      The soap opera that is the world political and trading dealings must have its script circulated or people wouldn’t be able to appreciate the many delicious ironies that arise between stated oaths and realltime when there are powerful countries and our fellow toadies and the wounded world.

  6. Why can’t they just chill – come on vlad – time to walk the walk not just talk the talk

    “New Zealand’s spy agency is linking the Russian government to a campaign of malicious cyber attacks which have targeted overseas political institutions, businesses, media and sporting organisations…

    but the GCSB was seeing a range of activity in New Zealand which contained indicators which can be linked to Russian state actors.”


  7. Jenny 7

    We are not amused.

    Australia have been caught throwing their weight around in the Pacific, like some sort of 21st Century regional colonial power.

    I wonder what Australia would do, if New Zealand conspired with the government of the Cook Islands to arrest Australian journalists in that territory?

    I don’t think the Australian Government would take it lying down like our government has.

    Our Foreign Minister should be summoning the Australian Ambassador to his Beehive office for a ‘please explain’. Before handing him an official letter of complaint to pass on to his government containing a demand for an official apology.

    Australia jointly responsible for Nauru’s draconian media policy, documents reveal
    Helen Davidson – The Guardian, October 4, 2018

    New Zealand journalist Barbara Dreaver detained by Nauruan police while interviewing refugee
    ABC News, September 5, 2018

    • Chuck 7.1

      Money talks and Australia rightly or wrongly has kept that small Island afloat since the mining stopped.

  8. greywarshark 8

    Financial dealings in NZ are or maybe like this . Nz is a juicy bone and the dogs will have their way with it.

    Mahana Estates Winery tipped into receivership as Las Vegas lawsuit hits business

    They say Schaeffer, who formerly headed the Mandalay Resort group in the US, sought capital contributions from them for the proposed partnership and when doing so either stated or implied that they were part-owners of the Woollaston Estates Vineyard, which later changed its name to Mahana….

    Schaeffer, however, has made several bids this month to halt the action or delay it.

    He alleges that last year, during a mediation to try to settle the dispute, Lee threatened him.

    “He knew where I lived, knew where my family lived and knew where my dogs lived,” Schaeffer claimed.

    “He said if I did not give him back his money that he would bury me in the desert like in the old days, he would destroy my children’s lives and bankrupt my ex-wife and travel to Omaha to kill my three show dogs. He ended his threats with the words ‘give me my f***ing money’,” Schaeffer alleged Lee said.

    Lee disputes Schaeffer’s account.

    While he told Schaeffer that Las Vegas gaming executives in the “old days” might have ended up buried in the Nevada desert, after saying this he claims he pointed out that things were done di

    • Exkiwiforces 8.1

      Is that old Philip Woollaston old vineyard? As he a vineyard round the Upper Moutere.

  9. eco maori 9

    Kia ora The Am Show condolences to Penny Bright’s whano she has moved on hopefully we will give her a sore face as she looks down on us seeing us become environmentally friendly and more humane .
    I can see a correlation with the drunk birds and Human Caused Climate Change summer coming early
    It would be cool if the top company’s on Papatuanuku paid there fair share of tax in country’s they generate there income from at the minute they only pay what drips off there huge plates in tax to country’s.
    Duncan national or shonky had a different agenda and it had the effect they wanted -equality I can see a pattern going right back to Captain Cook.
    Congratulation to Jenny Morris winning the honers for your music I listen to a few of her songs.
    The last government did not spend enough on trade training there solution to that problem was import the skilled labour who cares about our youth left on the couch.
    There you go Duncan the lady commenting on Penny Bright the councils and Governments state services need to stop cheating the people and follow the rule of law that they impose on the common people why hide information because some are cheating and lining there own pockets. Ka kite ano

  10. eco maori 10

    The state need to learn how our young maori Tane’s think some alt right neo liberals no how they think it was we but I a Papa now .
    A lot Our young tane hear story’s about there tipuans land being taxed / taken off them they hear bits and pieces about Our history of the land wars they see the Te Urawa Te teko raid’s the story about how many maori are in jail .
    And what happens to a lot of Tane they become anti state systems and walar they end up in a gang in jail and not a very positive future they will smoke weed why because its a gift from God who cares about the law’s .
    Some of the ALT Right are using this phenomenon to suppress maori .
    My advice to our young tane and wahine is to be proud of your self and your culture and don’t try and fight the system as it is rigged against you so you will lose.
    Get educated get a job and start KIWI SAVER work hard stay out of trouble when you have enough in your Kiwi saver buy a house if one does not own a house by the time you retire you will be living in hardship . Kia kaha ka kite ano P.S I see other patterns
    in Aotearoa society now is not the time to point them out.

  11. eco maori 13

    Kia ora Newshub Its cool that people are getting arrested for selling dairydack I still have questions .
    Many thanks Newshub for the story about our bing drinking culture it causes more damage to our society than any other drug ka pai .
    Pike river mine familys kia kaha .
    The Kavanauga case kia kaha wahine you let the authority’s no that his appointment is not on in 2018 EQUALITY .
    That’s awesome those Auckland huge container cranes being run on solar power many thanks .
    Ka pai Nike for letting the World know that treating our wahine like dirt in not on Renaldo is guilty does he not know that we can see it on his face.
    That real energy and environmentally friendly building is cool The compost toilet is the way I would go to as it cost about $20 k for a septic tank toilet its what I hope to build a house just like that building missed the name .
    Ka kite ano P.S Sam your star is glowing

  12. eco maori 14

    Kia ora The Crowd Goes Wild Wairangi & Storm .
    Got side tracked last night .
    Yes it will be a good game of tane Rugby over Tangaroa this weekend .
    Prithvi a ton on his first game of test Cricket Indian Cricket is pumping Ka pai .
    The young boy Rugby Cricket team a they will have a good time Josh Ali protecting his joules.
    Thats all part of the hype Wai I see a few people using that tack tick .
    Ka kite ano P.S I like watch The Late Show with Steven Corbet its cool

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