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Open mike 04/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 4th, 2021 - 195 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

195 comments on “Open mike 04/11/2021 ”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    Whammo! Methane reduction like you wouldn't believe but James, missed the party??? What the..?

    • Nic the NZer 1.1

      Maybe Shaw didn't want to emit any more 'hot air' than necessary.

      • Robert Guyton 1.1.1

        No Right Turn is, as always, deeply unimpressed 🙂

        http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2021/11/climate-change-freeloaders.html

        • garibaldi 1.1.1.1

          More important things to worry about today. I think Labour has lost Auckland and must rapidly change it's clusterfuck of recent announcements, and that overrides everything else today, imo.

          • Gypsy 1.1.1.1.1

            Oh I don't know. Making the citizens of the country's largest city apply for a permit to leave their own city for a holiday, and then holding them up at borders for hours while passports are checked sounds like a real vote winner to me. /sarc.

          • Shanreagh 1.1.1.1.2

            Yes the deft touch seems to have gone.

            For what it is worth I don't think that the PM should go to Auckland, what would it achieve? She is not the Queen or someone on a State visit. She is of more value healthy, alive and working through the issues here in Wellington or visiting areas where there is low vaccine uptake.

            http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2021/11/for-gods-sake-dont-send-jacinda-to.html

            Far better to go unheralded to vaccine clinics and in and out of places with no notice.

            As far as limiting travel it would be better to strengthen the bows of accommodation providers to be able to insist on vaccinated people only at their premises – as they have asked. Also to give Air NZ & other travel operators the backing to impose a requirement for vaccine certificates.

            They could of course be flying a kite, they will pull back eventually, impose some minor restrictions on travel then say what about these? Risky though.

            Pulling back on the announcements at 1.00pm is a good move.

            • Gypsy 1.1.1.1.2.1

              "As far as limiting travel it would be better to strengthen the bows of accommodation providers to be able to insist on vaccinated people only at their premises – as they have asked. Also to give Air NZ & other travel operators the backing to impose a requirement for vaccine certificates."

              My view has always been that Covid could be managed on work sites like any other hazard, rather than by state mandates. The recent days have seen a number of flip-flops over the implementation of mandates for education workers, and we are going to see some excellent teachers leave the sector at a time when there is a huge shortage, particularly in ECE.

              • Shanreagh

                The recent days have seen a number of flip-flops over the implementation of mandates for education workers, and we are going to see some excellent teachers leave the sector at a time when there is a huge shortage, particularly in ECE.

                I query whether anti vaxx teachers come into the category of 'excellent' especially when they teach in age groups where a vaccine is not currently possible to protect the pupils/students.

                I have posted this before:

                https://trademe.tmcdn.co.nz/photoserver/full/1626073833.jpg

                There is a point before vaccination or not can be treated as a health and safety measure. Without legislative or regulatory backing for the avoidance of doubt, Employers/Employment Courts etc are likely to have fruitless and non productive cases taken to the courts by employees who want to work in front facing roles without having had a vaccine. They could enshrine the recent Customs case as a start, though possibly they can do better with thought.

      • Sabine 1.1.2

        surely not.

    • Sabine 1.2

      So we are killing all the cows and other bovines until they are extinct then proclaim we are winning, and drive our winning price electric vehicles cause we are soo sooo environmentally minded, never mind Siberia and all that melting perma frost?

      Oh boy.

    • Ad 1.3

      Minister Shaw is pretty open this interview about the flaws in our gas emissions regulations and in carbon trading, and how NZ is fixing them:

      COP26: James Shaw confirms no new methane cuts involved in joining global pledge | Stuff.co.nz

      • Sabine 1.3.1

        Did he say something that new, something that we – you, and anyone else on this planet did not already knew?

        • Ad 1.3.1.1

          He's one of the more open Ministers we have in that he acknowledges where the system has flaws, and how he is fixing them. Not many Ministers like that.

    • weka 1.4

      It's Labour that's the majority government. Shaw sits outside of Cabinet.

      • Sabine 1.4.1

        true that, but also ……

        ……was appointed Minister for Climate Change, Statistics and Associate Minister for Finance.

        that is from the Green Party about James Shaw. https://www.greens.org.nz/james_shaw

        I think this is were the Green Party should have abstained last election, namely be scape goats for a labour party in the two portfolio where there is actually no winning. Homelessness, and Environment. If you were to ask Joe Bloke they would tell you that he is in government. Maybe he is Schroedingers Cat?

        Sometimes it is easier to affect action from the opposition bench.

        • Ad 1.4.1.1

          No it really isn't.

          The Greens could walk away any time they liked. But they stay there because they want to achieve something in climate change. Which is what they should be doing.

        • weka 1.4.1.2

          If the GP had chosen no agreement with Labour in 2020, we’d have an even worse situation re climate action.

      • Ad 1.4.2

        Shaw is the responsible Minister.

        Shaw drove the carbon trading bill negotiations with National.

        Shaw is leading the amendments.

        Shaw is the co-leader of the Green Party.

        There's no different Party that has separate policy or separate leadership: this is run by the leader of the Green Party.

        Own it.

        • weka 1.4.2.1

          You are actually quite clueless about how the GP works. You seem clueless about how MMP parliament works too, although I suspect that’s more about being able to blame Shaw or being ok with this completely lame climate action from the govt.

  2. Sabine 2

    natal female beings

    are they even human?

    do we give a damn?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300445524/treatment-in-womens-prisons-degrading-urgent-action-needed–report

    the ISUs were not therapeutic. Instead, the harsh treatment was not unlike the other “separates” units, and included strip searches and physically forcing women to wear tear-proof gowns without underwear, even while on their period…………………………….

    While in prison, Mita found out her son, Lance Tikitere Fitzgerald, 13, had died after an accidental drowning, her worst fear as a mother.

    When told of her son’s death, Mita says she punched her fist into the palm of her hand. A nearby prison guard warned her not to, threatening a placement in “suicide obvs”, or the ISU unit. “At that time, I knew it wasn’t a safe space for me to express my grief,” Mita said. “The guards used it as a punishment, and that was the perception.”……………………………..

    a judge’s ruling that the treatment of prisoners Mihi Bassett and Karma Cripps was “cruel” and “inhumane”, after they were gassed in their cells and humiliated to get food……………………………………

    The HRC report was based on Shalev’s comprehensive review of prisoner files and data from 2019, and a 2020 visit to Auckland Regional Women’s Corrections Facility.

    Isolation for longer than 15 days is a breach of international human rights. In 2019, there were 101 occasions when women spent two weeks or longer in isolation. Some of these were the same women experiencing multiple confinements in the same year, Shalev said.

    The longest stretch was almost four months, or 113 days.

    but rest assured dear Lefties, Department of Corrections is certain that using pepperspray / gas is legal, 'special clothing' for the safety of prisoner without underwear is for their own good, and generally if these evil doers natal females would just submit Yelling' yes, sir, how deep sir' surely non of that would happen. And guards can do what guards want to do, so as long as they make sure to mark it for the 'safety of staff, and the prisoner'. Cause nothing says 'care' better then forcing a women to wear a gown without underwear while on her period, or shackling a ‘breeding body’ while giving birth.

    All of this ok’d and signed of by the Department of Corrections under Labour.

  3. Adrian Thornton 3

    I have really warmed to Greta Thunberg over the past year or so, I always admired her commitment, but I really admire the way she hasn't been sucked into the game of pretending that any current western politician with any power is serious about climate change..she keeps on reminding us that they are all just so full of shit that is seems to seep out of them every time they open their mouths, and was the first to call out Ardern for being just as full of shit as the rest of them…and she has a pretty good sense of humor, to which is a good sign….

    "It's funny that people believe Jacinda Ardern and people like that are climate leaders," Thunberg responded.

    "That just tells you how little people know about the climate crisis."

    GRETA GOES ‘NET ZERO’ ON SWEARING

    Greta Thunberg has joking stated she will go ‘net zero’ on swearing after she was caught on camera cussing several times this week.

    The Swedish climate activist was filmed chanting “You can shove your climate crisis up your a**e” as well as speaking about being ‘p****d off’ at the lack of action during protests in Glasgow.

    And on Monday she did not hold in her demands as she addressed a sea of protestors and striking council workers.

    She said: “Inside COP there are politicians pretending to take our future seriously.

    “We say no more blah-blah-blah, no more exploitation of people, nature and the planet. No more whatever the f*** they’re doing inside there.”

    Now the 18-year-old made a tongue-in-cheek pledge to compensate for her use of bad language.

    She pledged to go ‘net-zero’ – a term commonly used by those aiming to balance out the harm they cause on the environment – by ‘saying something nice’ every time she swears.

    She said “I am pleased to announce that I’ve decided to go net-zero on swear words and bad language.

    “In the event that I should say something inappropriate, I pledge to compensate that by saying something nice.

    The teenage climate activist has been a part of key protests in Glasgow and has called for world leaders to take the future “seriously”.

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/7898995/cop26-glasgow-extinction-rebellion-greenwash-protests-arrests/

    • Sabine 3.1

      hahahahah she has a good sense of humor and more of an idea of just how fucked everything is than many that have tens of years of life experience on her.

    • vto 3.2

      ha ha ha this…

      “I am pleased to announce that I’ve decided to go net-zero on swear words and bad language.

      “In the event that I should say something inappropriate, I pledge to compensate that by saying something nice."

      shows the compensatory thing up for the quasi bull it is

    • Molly 3.3

      The cultural and societal burden we place on Greta Thunberg, who is saying what we all know to be true, is both immense and ridiculous.

      Those of us who have looked at the climate change issue and research for years know that the previous and current COP meetings are unlikely to produce any REAL improvement in emissions, because while there may be well-intentioned and passionate people attending them, the power brokers are still intent on paying the least and extracting the most, and they will author the final outcomes.

      Why do we need a Greta Thunberg to speak for us?

      As one of the generation that has benefitted from fossil fuel usage, while knowing that it is causing an existential harm, I should be speaking out along with all my generation:

      "I say no more blah-blah-blah, no more exploitation of people, nature and the planet. No more whatever the fuck they’re doing inside there."

      Any politicians reading this – I will not be voting for you unless you address this issue.

      Any potential political parties that want to focus on addressing completely the climate change issue – which means addressing climate change inequity both here and overseas (ie. no exporting our pollution to other countries, no putting the cost on those who have contributed the least or already carry the burden of poverty) – I will not only vote for you, I will actively campaign for you.

      For the current government. I have been waiting, unsuccessfully, for a Climate Change National Policy Statement that would require every local authority to both plan, build and issue consents that do not allow development that is detrimental to addressing this issue, and actively promoted transition.

      You've had four years since your climate change nuclear-free bollocks, and where the bloody hell are you?

      We shouldn't need Greta Thunberg to lead the way, we have our own legs and should start the hikoi ourselves.

      • Sabine 3.3.1

        There is one thing youth has that older people for the most part have lost a long time ago, NO FEAR.

        She is not afraid to lose something she never had. She is not afraid to call out those that don't do, for she has no career to lose.

        She is not afraid to ridicule those that are powerful for she again, has nothing to lose.

        And that is why people like her.

        Never mind, many of us have been saying the same for a long time, but generally we just get called cheap names.

        • Molly 3.3.1.1

          I like her too.

          (Just have some dislike of those who are capable and stand by and think re-tweeting Thunberg is heavy lifting.)

          • Sabine 3.3.1.1.1

            it would also not the first time for adults to hide behind youth either.

            But i find it more interesting that people lauded her a few years ago, but now that she is growing up and is actually calling out leaders by their names and their countries names its like, tsk tsk tsk, don't shout so loud little girl.

            Mind, she speaks an uncomfortable truth and the more she makes people uncomfortable the better it is.

    • Ad 3.4

      Making a metaphor of swearing compared to a global trading system is just trite.

      Still, every court needs a Fool.

      • Anker 3.4.1

        "still every country needs a fool…" or a very honest spokewoman who calls out blah blah blah and uses witty analogy to continue to call them out…….

        By the way, whatever you say about Shaw, he comes across to many as a fool. His performance doesn’t appear to be that impressive. The likes of Greenpeace aren’t thrilled. I think they prefer Greta (the woman

        • Bearded Git 3.4.1.1

          Only people who voted Green can call Shaw a fool, which he patently isn't. Those who didn't vote Green already disliked Shaw.

          • Anker 3.4.1.1.1
            • Yes so probably ok Greenpeace not impressed, although I am not quoting them as calling Shaw a fool….

            I guess I didn’t know the “rules” around here, that you can only call people fools if you voted for them. I suspect most people on this site will be ruled out from calling Judith Collins or David Seymour a fool by your reckoning. Although perhaps you were being sarcastic?

            I think it was Ad who seemed to refer to Greta as a fool. I put Shaw with a question mark.

            I do have a bit of a problem with commenters who tell other commenters they have to “on it”. Ie they have to own their point of view, not their own.

            I am sure it wasn’t meant that way, but it sounds a bit aggressive .

          • Molly 3.4.1.1.2

            I voted Green. I dislike Shaw.

            That dislike is re-invigorated every time I receive a "Well Done Us!" email, listing their 'achievements'. I need to Unsubscribe.

      • Sabine 3.4.2

        OH yes, no one is more a fool then those that have eyes to see yet listen to those that don't want them to believe what they see.

        And for what its worth, that young women just had the best metaphor of them all. I do something bad, and i offset with a tiny little good. Signed the global leaders and their handmaidens who continue to pollute in the name of profit and eternal growth.

      • Nic the NZer 3.4.3

        Do we have a way of shielding the global trading system from ridicule?

      • mac1 3.4.4

        Of Shakespearean Fools it was written, "The Fool knows that the only true madness is to recognize this world as rational."

        An apt and wise (very Foolish) observation on Thunberg's role.

      • Adrian Thornton 3.4.5

        @Ad

        "Still, every court needs a Fool"….Yep and we got our very own one right here…thanks for all your work.

  4. Molly 4

    Kathleen Stock's first interview since resigning from her Sussex University post, on BBC Woman's Hour.

  5. Gezza 5

    "Patricia Bremner 9.1.1

    29 October 2021 at 8:55 pm

    Are you home yet Gezza?"

    ………………..

    Discharged at 5.30 pm last night, Wednesday, after a 14 day stay, mostly in a single, 5 star room, with a brilliant view, at Ward 7 South, Wellington "Hospitel", Patricia.

    The Samoan Meals Delivery Lady from the Kitchen got so emotional on hearing that, with luck, I would going home she wanted a big long hug, and immediately dashed off, returning with a brown paper bag containing two sandwiches, a banana, & 6 packets of crackers & cheese, so that I wouldn't have to cook dinner when I got home.

    Some parts of my stay in the first week there were pretty rough. Some of the tests I was required to do for diagnostic purposes involved electric shocks being administered to various muscles & they ramped up to some pretty big, uncomfortable jolts.

    Followed by fine needles with electrodes attached inserted into various muscles so that their performance could be measured at rest and then under physical stress. And, contrary to the advice given beforehand, those hurt! 😖

    But for most of the rest of my stay there I was looked after every day & night by a constant succession of wonderful, beautiful, women, & kind, caring men, of all ages & nationalities. Some of the most kind men I encountered there were Maori orderlies, proudly displaying their iwi tatoos on arms & legs.

    I was almost sorry to leave. Welly hospital staff are awesome folk. Even the security personnel on door duty were kind & helpful.

    And I even managed to get a Wellington City Council maintenance crew scheduled to replace a missing slat on the front of one of the seat benches I would go down to on the street every day in front of the hospital Main Entrance, just by reporting it on their online "Fix it" contact form.

    So I feel my stay there will benefit other folk like me needing to get out & car-watch, & people-watch & get some sun & fresh air. ☘🐧😀

    • Ad 5.1

      Gezza you are a ray of sunshine, resilience and openness.

    • Molly 5.2

      Glad to hear you are home, Gezza.

      Enjoy your contributions on Open Mike, such a good way to start the morning.

    • Patricia Bremner 5.3

      Hello and Cheers Gezza, hope your diagnosis is ok and you are enjoying your friends at home. We are watching NZ versus Scotland twenty twenty cricket. Painful for Norm he's an ex Scot lol . Keep well and hope you soon get some sun to bird watch at home.

      • Patricia Bremner 5.3.1

        Just checked your weather Gezza, cold and wet till Monday. Just as well your mates are water birds. Been windy here.

        • Gezza 5.3.1.1

          Whereabouts in NZ are you, Patricia?

          (Apologies if you’ve told me before & I’ve forgotten.)

          • Patricia Bremner 5.3.1.1.1

            We are in Rotorua Gezza. Are you managing ok? We used to have family in Waihi and Whakatane so this was close but not too close.

            Norm spent quite a bit of time in Wellington in the 60's when he was with McKenzies Ltd. So we are aware of the weather.. 4 seasons in a day similar to here.

            Our roses are just beginning to bloom, the blossom was great 'till we got the wind. Rotorua has a great display of tulips, finishing now sadly.

            Currently our son can't visit as Hamilton is in Lockdown, so we feel for those in Auckland., where Norm's brother and wife have been separated from family on Waiheke for 11+ weeks. Hear is hoping Christmas is better for us all. All the Best.

    • Sabine 5.4

      good to hear that you got home well and with food too!

      Kai, keeps the soul and the body together.

    • Gezza 5.5

      Thank yous all for those kind comments above.

      Some of the view from my hospital window.

    • Gezza 5.6

      .
      Westpac Rescue Chopper landing on Welly Hospital roof pad:

      View post on imgur.com

      • Shanreagh 5.6.1

        Hi Gezza…….I was in Wellington hospital a couple of years ago for surgery on what turned out to be a perforated bowel. My room must have been very close to yours it was on the same building as the landing pad and two floors down…

        Not being capable of much and being drugged up for pain I used to keep a watch out for the helicopters sliding up the side of the building past my window & then landing above me.

        After a couple of days there being puzzled, they said they would be taking me to theatre at about 5.30pm as long as they did not have other more urgent cases come in. I kept watching the helicopters come into to land on the roof and then it dawned on me that in these helicopters might be the urgent cases that would knock me out of line.

        I remember looking up and thinking 'I hope there are no more helicopters landing with other sick people', then immediately thought 'what a selfish idea'….I must have got a bit upset and I told the nurse when she came to see what was the matter, how I felt I was being selfish. She said 'There are times when you need to put yourself first and this is one of them, you are not being selfish to think that'.

        I was there for nearly three weeks and have nothing but admiration for the care I got there and the followup later.

        Hope you are all better soon.

        • Gezza 5.6.1.1

          I understand those sentiments, and that nurse was quite right, Shanreagh. You sound like a nice, very considerate person. But in hospital your priority can definitely be YOU, and getting healed asap, with no shame at all.

          I will post a clip of the Palmerston North Rescue Chopper arriving there tomorrow.

          Whenever I hearda helicopter, I'd try & figure out if I had enuf time to make it all the way thru 2 sets of fire doors & down the corridor to the 7th Floor Orange lift lobby to catch it coming down. I had the very first room at the Southern end of W7S, & I needed a Zimmer frame to get there. Wasn't always doable.

          ❤️ 👍🏼 ☘ 🐧

    • mary_a 5.7

      @ Gezza (5) … Your comments are a good testimonial for Wellington Hospital staff during your recent stay. People are very quick to complain about our health system, which I admit isn't perfect, but it works, so it's truly refreshing to read about your experience as a patient.

      Great to have you back again and I look forward to digitally catching up with your critter friends once more. Take good care. Cheers.

    • McFlock 5.8

      🙂

  6. Dennis Frank 6

    Republic of Whangamōmona to be integrated fully into Aotearoa: soon there will no longer be a state highway which is part gravel!

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/454906/forgotten-world-highway-project-to-finish-unsealed-part-of-sh43-begins

    The first sod has been turned on a project to seal the last remaining 12km of State Highway 43 through the Tangarakau Gorge in East Taranaki.

    State Highway 43 – otherwise known as the Forgotten World Highway – connects Stratford in Taranaki to Taumarunui in the King Country.

    Stratford Mayor Neil Volzke said it had been a long-held ambition to complete sealing the road beyond Whangamōmona. "This is hugely significant. It's been something successive mayors and councils have been asking for for at least 50 years, so to reach the milestone of the sod-turning it's tremendous.

    It is estimated traffic will grow by 15 percent on the 148km route after it is sealed – bringing vehicle numbers close to 13,000 a year. That is tipped to boost tourism in Taranaki by as much as $45 million annually.

    • Tiger Mountain 6.1

      Winston and Shane’s legacy still rippling through via the Provincial Growth Fund.

      Shane Jones still turns up to the opening of this and that project in Northland even though no longer an MP. Not much time for either of them really, though Shane was supporting a Ngati Kahu land claim at Taipa Point last Friday for no reason other than he had historical knowledge and was assisting the mostly young iwi members.

      Pity Winston had to go out on a sour note–threatening a letter to the Governor General!
      The PGF was seen as pork barreling of the first order but did not work for NZ First if that was their cunning plan. Some great improvements have happened nonetheless at a level that local people can relate to and benefit from.

    • Ad 6.2

      That is going to a really tough feat for the roading crews who will do it. There's sections in there that near-never see daylight and have overhanging cliffs with dripping water constant.

      And it will require an almighty maintenance budget per year. Even the current sealed sections from Taumaranui are intestinal.

      I did the full road last year and it is a deeply isolated epic.

      • Dennis Frank 6.2.1

        Good on you for that. You're ahead of me – been on my to-do list for years but still haven't got around to it. yes

        • Sabine 6.2.1.1

          it is an awesome road, do it now before the sealed road will bring out all the nutters.

          Beware of goats.

      • AB 6.2.2

        Did it in mid-winter (July) several years back. Tangarakau Gorge was other-worldly in a dripping wet, gloomy, malevolent way. Was thankful for the AWD on the old Subaru.

  7. Anker 7
    • Thanks Molly, great the media in the UK report this….I will listen when I have more time. I really feel for Kathleen Stock being subjected to the most vile harassment campaign.
    • I commented quite late at night after you posted the add from Scotland re “we won’t tolerate hate” . The group that was missing was women of course (who it is well known receive a disproportionate amount of vile harassment etc such as rape threats, violent porn being sent to them etc). And this is how it has turned out to be in the UK. The harassment of women, including visits from the police.
  8. Dennis Frank 8

    John Minto gets it right for a change:

    The problem with COP26 is that it has misdiagnosed the problem. The problem is capitalism which requires endless growth on a finite planet for the benefit of the 1%.

    He then spoils the effect by defaulting into the stance of typical leftist rhetoric by failing to provide a positive alternative. He could have explained why the leftist think-tank still has issued no intellectual product after years in their attempt to figure something out!

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/11/04/cop26-has-misdiagnosed-the-climate-crisis/

  9. Dennis Frank 9

    Win for Republican in Virginia governor vote:

    Youngkin, a mild-mannered private equity tycoon, sought to appeal to moderates by keeping Mr Trump at arm's length, while tapping into the former president's supporters in the state. His balancing act may offer a template for Republicans seeking to win back suburban moderate voters who were turned off by Mr Trump's firebrand style of politics. The race could shape party messaging and battle-plans for next year's mid-term elections

    In more potential good news for Virginia Republicans, their candidate, former US Marine Winsome Sears, is tipped to become the first black female lieutenant governor of the state, which was the former seat of the pro-slavery Confederacy during the American Civil War.

    A female soldier as successful politician is unusual enough but the `colour' differential makes her unique – a role model to watch. This is also notable:

    In Boston, Asian-American candidate Michelle Wu was elected mayor, becoming the first woman and first person of colour to take the post. "One of my sons asked me the other night if boys can be elected mayor of Boston," the Democrat told supporters. "They have been, and they will again some day, but not tonight."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59144293

    • Gypsy 9.1

      Looks like the New Jersey Governor race is too close to call – potentially another embarrassment for the Democrats. Biden is hurting them it seems.

      • Dennis Frank 9.1.1

        Biden is hurting them it seems

        Well, it may seem so but media narratives often echo the assumption that leadership comes from the top. I think nowadays that is less obviously so than in the past. Better to crowdsource political wisdom.

        I'd be more inclined to point to tarnish on the Democrat brand. Knee-jerk deference to the status quo often works via pragmatism but times like now require genuine progress. Biden started well initiating a progressive agenda but any competent political advisors ought to be telling him there's currently insufficient resonance with that agenda in the public mind – thus his slide in poll ratings.

        You can't expect old duffers to make progress on behalf of younger generations without those youngsters pulling their weight. Younger aspirants are challenged now to reinvigorate their party on the basis of what voters actually want.

        • Craig Hall 9.1.1.1

          Is there insufficient resonance or annoyance that the agenda is being frustrated by Congress at every step?

        • Gypsy 9.1.1.2

          Biden was and is way past his use by date. He is a bumbling fool, and unfortunately he has a VP who is no better.

          • Cricklewood 9.1.1.2.1

            Its not covered in NZ msm but hes been incoherent in some public appearances of late.

            If it had been Trump it would have lead the news here.

  10. Nice summary of Three Waters from Robbie Nicol. Important point about Te Tiriti.

    • Gypsy 11.1

      I've got a much simpler explanation.

      1. We have a system for managing water that needs ongoing investment.

      2. Most, but not all, regions are doing a good job.

      3. The government wants to centralise everything that moves.

      4. The government come sup with a really stupid idea to spend a huge amount of money taking the decision making over water even further away from the democratic process. But it will be voluntary, they say.

      5. The government spends millions on a campaign of lies and misinformation to convince the great unwashed the idea is a good one.

      6. The government loses the debate, but it still be voluntary.

      7. The new idea becomes compulsory.

      8. The governments gets called a “deceitful, lying pack of bastards”.

      • Shanreagh 11.1.1

        I.ve got a very NZ response to that cynicism of yours

        'yeah right' wink

      • roblogic 11.1.2

        .

        1. Climate change
        2. Lack of funds to maintain or invest in the future
        3. 67 distinct water authorities of varying quality, in a small country of 5 million
        4. Record of failures, leaks, discharges, poisoned supplies, droughts
        5. Councils elected by minority voter turnout, controlled by wealthy old Nimbys, reluctant to relinquish power
        6. Government has widespread support among NZ voters, Councils are a noisy unrepresentative sample
        7. Three Waters integrated plan has solid backing from industry, regardless of self-aggrandising local politicians
        8. Projections are that the 4 new bodies will provide economies of scale and reliable infrastructure, saving billions long term.
        9. The alternative of status quo muddling along is an unnecessary risk. Water is essential to civilisation.
        10. Partnership with local iwi fulfils treaty obligations and mitigates risk of a right wing government attempting to flog off assets
        • RedLogix 11.1.2.1

          And to add to your list – that much of the existing infrastructure is closing in on end of life.

          Wellington City is the prime example, ageing pipes in difficult ground slowly but surely giving up the ghost.

          • Sabine 11.1.2.1.1

            I have lived here now for over twenty years. The same thing was said then.

            One thing i would expect politicians to do is keep the town in which they live and work functioning. But they can't even do that.

            Ditto DHBs. Ditto Prisons. Ditto Schooling. Ditto Social Welfare. And that is why I for not one minute will even entertain the Idea that they could even comprehend the magnitude of the issues of our crumbling infrastructure and find the will to fix it – fix it for more then just the next election cycle that is.

            I can see them put on band aids all over the show, so they have something good to show when time for hte next selections of our overlords is pushed on us under the guise of 'democracy'.

            • Gypsy 11.1.2.1.1.1

              Social Welfare is centralised, and WINZ, Oranga Tamariki etc are awful organsiations. In the UK social services are devolved and work far better than in NZ. Bigger is not always better. When the bigger is state controlled, it almsmost always isn't.

              • KJT

                Government services in NZ are failing, because Governments of a right wing persuasion, as usual want them to fail. So they deliberately underfund, destroy efficiency and ability to deliver services.

                With the intention of getting support for a fragmented and privatised State sector.

                WINZ is just one of many examples.

                What scares National, is not that 3waters will fail. But that it will work.

                • Gypsy

                  National, Act, NZF and the Greens are all speaking against 3Waters.

                  "So they deliberately underfund, destroy efficiency and ability to deliver services."

                  Sure that happens. But in other news, central government sometimes throws money at problems and fails to deliver. Like spending $75.8 million putting more guidance counsellors into schools and achieving nothing.

                  • KJT

                    Actually found the councilers in schools very usefull.

                    And. It is pretty obvious why the usual suspects don't like 3 waters. It affects the ability to privatise water in future, it will limit the ability to get slapped with a wet bus ticket for polluting rivers, and limits council's kicking essential infrstructure down the road, in favour of more spectacular projects.

          • Gypsy 11.1.2.1.2

            Auckland is a prime example of how a local Council can invest in world class delivery of water services. https://www.watercare.co.nz/Central-interceptor

            The key is to combine local control with quality oversight. 3 Waters delivers no gurantees of either.

        • Gypsy 11.1.2.2
          1. Irrelevant to 3Waters.

          2. There are plenty of funds. Tax/Rate payers will be funding 3 waters, they can fund any other structure.

          3. Some amalgamations would fix that. And with better results.

          4. Grossly over exaggerated to sell a dog of an idea.

          5. 3Waters Boards selected by power elites 3 steps removed from voters.

          6. So why doesn't the government take this to a referendum? They certainly didn't take this to the last election.

          7. Evidence?

          8. Projections by paid operatives which have been well debunked.

          9. The current model is flawed but not broken. There are many examples of delivery systems working well – remember NZ has the 7th cleanest drinking water in the world.

          10. There is no 'partnership with local Iwi' on ownership, so there is nothing to stop future governments selling assets. Do you even know what 3waters is proposing?

    • Shanreagh 11.2

      I don't have any problem with the Three Waters issue as proposed.

      The best part for me is that it seems to largely have Iwi/Maori support.

      I am old enough to remember that it was only after the intervention of the NZ Maori Council on behalf of the other Treaty partner and the wins it had against the Govt on the asset sales issues, that saved some of the worst neolib excesses from occurring.

      Having worked with a person who is now prominent in Maori circles whose often confronting view was that 'what is good for Maori is good for the rest of NZ' I am looking for specific Maori concerns. If these arise I will rethink my support.

      • Gypsy 11.2.1

        3Waters has the support of a Maori elite, because they are the ones who will benefit. The rest, they probably are just concentrating on getting on with their lives.

        • Shanreagh 11.2.1.1

          No Maori elite about it. There is much encouragement to explore and annotate whakapapa from all the iwi/hapu and other Maori groups. Not sure who these so-called 'elite' are…..are they the ones currently doing the hard yards to get their folk vaccinated? To undertake research for Treaty claims? Te Pati Maori?

          'Elite' sounds a bit like the scurrilous anti Jew tropes that pop up every now and again.

          • Gypsy 11.2.1.1.1

            I work with Maori at a grass roots level, at an individual iwi, hapu, marae level. They are the first to complain about the power elite within their own; the wealthy lawyer class with fingers in many pies who look after their own affairs and don't give a toss about maori aspiration. I'll say this, from experience – if you've ever worked with a statutory authority you'll know what I mean.

            BTW – your final sentence is quite offensive.

            • Shanreagh 11.2.1.1.1.1

              BTW – your final sentence is quite offensive.

              Not so…'elite' is a loaded word. It is offensive used on the context of Maori aspirations to make a good job of dealing with opportunities that 3Waters may bring.

              The so-called lawyers are the ones who are working on the the Treaty of Waitangi claims and for redress properties. The iwi I have dealings with are immensely proud of the young (and not so young ones) people who have got an education in all manner of fields and then are coming back to help their people.

              • Gypsy

                I'm not referring to lawyers working on redress. Unless you've worked in the space I'm referring to, you might not have experienced them. The ones I'm referring to have shafted their own people more often than I care to count.

        • KJT 11.2.1.2

          The good thing about that, is that Maori are much less likely to flog it all off.

          • Shanreagh 11.2.1.2.1

            Yes hopefully. I also think they have a sky’s the limit aspiration as they cannot do worse than the shambles, inequities and crazy land use decisions affecting water that are about in some areas now.
            They may even do better.

          • Gypsy 11.2.1.2.2

            I would like to think you are correct, but there is already a process for privatisation built into the 3Waters proposal. It includes a referendum.

            • KJT 11.2.1.2.2.1

              With a 75% super majority.

              An impossibility, given New Zealanders previous experiences of privatisation.

              National, and Labour in their previous incarnation, went ahead with flogging things off, despite a majority polling against.

              • Gypsy

                "An impossibility, given New Zealanders previous experiences of privatisation."
                Not an impossibility. And no less likely than the current governance structure.

                I notice that the government have started a 3Waters defensive/educational/recovery campaign. It's not surprising, given they've failed to win the argument to date.

                • KJT

                  They have failed to overcome the noise on facebook.

                  And NACT propaganda campaigns. Sadly.

                  Amoung more thoughtfull people, however!

                  I wonder what the veiws would be if National were honest about their reasons for opposing it.
                  Privatisation is still way more unpopular than 3 waters.

                  • Gypsy

                    Ok, I’ll call you in that. Let’s put it to a referendum. I’ll put $100 on 3Waters being ditched.

              • weka

                so National or Labour could privatise despite a referendum?

                • Gypsy

                  Any future government could. And it would easier because the assets are grouped.

                • KJT

                  Parliament is always supreme.

                  A majority in Government in NZ, legally, has absolute power.

                  They can change any law they like, including requirements for a super majority in referenda. Or make them binding or non-binding.
                  We voted for MMP because of the way that the 84 and 90 Governments abused power. As a check on that power.

                  We do not have the democratic checks and balances of countries like Switzerland.

                  So even if a Government legislated for a super majority now, it can be overturned by a future Government. The political embarrassment for the next election, is the only brake on Government we really have. So we still have to hope that changing it brings enough public opposition to stop it. It would have to be a two step process to privatise.
                  More difficult if it is not set up as a profit making entity.

                  The right wing does respect "property rights". I.E. Once they have stolen the commons they agree with the "property right" to keep it. Whether the same respect extends to property rights held by the public, or Maori, is "debatable".

                  Noting, that Aucklands assets were one council election away from being sold, not all that long ago.
                  Other assets belonging to councils already have been.

                  • pat

                    All 'law' is only enforceable by a substantial majority support (not consensus)

                  • weka

                    Haven't quite followed that. The super majority bit is to offer some partial protection because the way they are designing 3 waters makes it ripe for privatisation and the partial protection is better than nothing?

                    • KJT

                      Sorry. Reading back it is not all that clear.

                      In NZ law our Government cannot control what a future Government does.

                      The super majority is more a moral rather than real brake on a future Government.

                      But without changing NZ's constitutional arrangements, which no party that imagines they will have "the power " in future is likely to support, the current "Parliament is supreme".

                      It is harder for Government to keep asset sales under the radar than it is for councils. Who knows off hand what is privatised, contracted out, partially sold or managed at "arms length" in their current district. Whereas we all know who part privatised electricity

                    • Gypsy

                      Ultimately it is central government calling the shots on ownership.

                      The businesses resulting from the 3 Waters reform will be massive revenue earning monopolies, ripe for privatisation. That a pathway towards that scenario is already being openly contemplated is interesting, to say the least.

                    • KJT

                      The intent is obviously to try and make it difficult.

                      But no Government can prevent a future Government privatising.

                      Recent years have shown that privatisation is easier for individual councils.

                      Ports are just one example.

                  • Gypsy

                    "Whereas we all know who part privatised electricity"
                    Electricity in NZ is not privatised.

                    There are 5 generators of electricty, 3 of which the government owns a majority share.

                    The entire transmission system is state owned.

                    Distribution and retail of electricity is conducted by a range of state and private sector entities. E.g. Genesis and Mercury are majority state owned, Contact and TrustPower are 100% listed companies.

                    NZ currently ranks ninth equal out of 127 countries in the World Energy Council's Energy Trilemma Index, which compares how nations balance energy security, equity and sustainability.

                    So we're up there with the best in the world.

                    An interesting finding of that report is that NZ has experienced a decline in energy security. We were 3rd out of the top 25 energy users in 2016. We are now 9th. No prizes for guessing who made the decisions that contributed to that.

                    • KJT

                      Looked at your power bill lately?

                      The duplication and fake competition of the entities “run like a business” has cost consumers, especially domestic and small business, dearly.

                  • Gypsy

                    "But no Government can prevent a future Government privatising."

                    No, but 3Waters actually makes it more attractive.

                    "Recent years have shown that privatisation is easier for individual councils. Ports are just one example."

                    Which ports are privatised? The top 5 ports in NZ are Tauranga, Auckland, Wellington, Napier and Lyttleton. Napier is 55% owned by a Council entity. The others are all fully council owned.

                    And how is it less difficult for a voter conscious council to sell assets than a government?

                  • Gypsy

                    "The duplication and fake competition of the entities “run like a business” has cost consumers, especially domestic and small business, dearly."
                    Read the international comparisons and weep. The 1950's phoned and asked for you.

                    • KJT

                      You are full of it.

                      Read the comparisn between domestic consumers share of electricity cost, and how much it was, before the 90's and afterwards, "and weep".

                      As we pay to subsidise the power retailers competing for the big firms. Shareholder profits, and the subsidy to Tiwai point so that power share holders don't lose money.

                  • Gypsy

                    "Read the comparisn between domestic consumers share of electricity cost, and how much it was, before the 90's and afterwards, "and weep"."
                    No need. The sector has needed ongoing investment. As the international accolades make clear, our public/private partnership model is delivering a very good outcome. It's a shame the current governments irresponsible decisions around gas exploration has compromised our energy security.

      • McFlock 11.2.2

        Funnily enough, last night over drinks someone raised a couple of interesting questions:

        1: if they don't have to pay for water, will councils lower rates? Realistic answer: Hell no.

        2: so ratepayers get a separate bill for water. Including landlords. Why would they pay it? They don't need the water, their tenants do. So it ends up being an extra grand in utilities bills the renters have to cough up every year, or the tap gets locked off.

        • lprent 11.2.2.1

          In Auckland I’ve had to do that since I started flatting in Auckland and not as part of the rates – to pay the cost of water.

          There was a reason that there are water meters for every building in the Auckland City Council area. We don’t have an individual Watercare bill in our block of 61 single bedroom apartments, but water and sewerage processing is a major cost in our body corporate levy (second after insurance as I remember it). And it has been user pays for a long time.

          The cost of collecting/processing sewerage separated from rates in the 1990s as I remember it and went to Watercare. The latter is larger than the cost of cost of providing the water. It pays for the sewerage piping, the separation projects, and for the treatment of the sewerage. I believe that is also the main impetus for the 3 waters.

          Quite simply many of the smaller councils are pretty shit at dealing properly with sewerage and are under funding it. They simply can’t put up the spikey capital required to fix it. Partly of course that is a direct result of some stupid decisions mostly by National about funding and borrowing limits. But the infrastructure upgrades are now beyond the capacity of most councils outside of a few urban areas (ie not Wellington) and a few far-sighted areas who paid a little more more for longer for maintenance and upgrades when required.

          So this is what you eventually get to.

          It is a pity that we can’t give previous decision makers in councils and government what they truly, and site policy prevents me from explaining exactly what that is. But ultimately voters either approved or acquiesced to those decisions – so three waters is directly their fault.

          Unfortunately Auckland having spent the last 30 years fixing the problem is now going to have to cough up their assets to help pay for the whole country to do the same.

          • McFlock 11.2.2.1.1

            It's also the reason we were protestig water metering proposals in Dunedin for the last couple of decades. We saw what happened in Auckland.

            But as an integral part of the rates bill, it's not an additional cost for renters here. Yet.

        • Shanreagh 11.2.2.2

          Yes there is/has been much weirdo thinking about water…….Auckland Council apparently makes you pay for water even if you have a property that has been built to not use Council supplied water. This fee is not just a low 'sunk', as it were, cost recognising the ability to access the supply if a homeowner wanted but a figure based on average use for a house of the type and size. So flying in the face of efforts to be sustainable/self sufficient..

          A council in Canterbury somewhere does not mandate roof collections and storage tanks for rural new builds if there is a water supply scheme that a house can be linked to.

          Some councils have pared their water leak response teams to the bare bones so that wastage from leaky pipes etc are slow to be fixed.

          We are just going through the 'good idea that water meters are' with the current council here in Wellington. The handling of Wellington's water woes is like a curate's egg……good and bad. But clipping user pays onto a wonky system is super silly and hopefully the 3Waters regime will have better ideas and not be so hellbent on rigidly dividing everything it can lay its hands on into user pays and public good.

          If done 'correctly' sarc/ the public good component is always much lower.

          The query and thought that renters should not be treated as they are with these bills is a good one. I am pondering though what the difference is between the provision of electricity where the LL provides the fitting/meter and the tenants pay the ongoing costs and water and water.

    • pat 11.3

      Local Council v Central Gov appointment?…..This may temper some views.

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/ecan-exposed-regulator-hides-damning-report

  11. Adrian 12

    According to the Guardian this morning Germany is killing the equivalent ofNZs entire Covid fatalities every fortnight that’s 40 times our total at 1322 deaths and they need every one of their much vaunted ICU beds for their Covid patients. Only 66% of Germans are vaccinated and the fourth wave is exploding.

    Thank you Labour, Jacinda and Cabinet, Ashley and his team of heaps of experts and everybody else who has responded to the emergency., I haven’t needed to bury any mates and not a lot of people of my age in the rest of the world can say that.

    Needless to say I have no time for the whingers and complainers here.

    • Sabine 12.1

      yeah, nah nah. see my link below.

      just saying.

    • Nic the NZer 12.2

      I think many Germans would rightly reject that 'they' are killing their population. With 83 million population the scale of deaths during an outbreak is always going to be significant relative to NZs.

  12. Sabine 13

    Interesting read about 'unvaccinated' in Germany.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/03/germany-enveloped-in-massive-pandemic-of-the-unvaccinated

    Leif Erik Sander, a physician at the department of infectious diseases and respiratory medicine at Berlin’s Charité hospital, said on Wednesday that about 30 million people in Germany were already or would soon be in need of a booster shot, but vaccinations were only happening at a rate of about 150,000 people a day.

    “It’s fairly easy to calculate that at this rate we wouldn’t be able to immunise these groups in time for this winter,” Sander said.

    so there is a vax rate of 60+%, but they also have nearly 30 % that are no longer considered fully vaxxed as they are in need of booster shots and if htey don't get them they will be considered 'unvaxxed'.

    That is something i have been mentioning, when will we count people who are in need of a booster shot as 'unvaxxed', one month after the 6 month period, three month later? And how can we aim for 90% if we will always have people fall out of the fully vaccinated group because their initial 6 month full coverage is over and the shots are now losing coverage? In July – before we started vaccinating the public at large some 15% – Group 1 and two – were considered vaccinated. Are they still in that group?

    • dv 13.1

      Germany death rate in the middleish.
      US 1 in 451
      Italy 1 in 457
      UK 1 in 479
      Spain 1 in 540
      France 1 in 566
      Austria 1 in 789
      Germany 1 in 874
      Turkey 1 in 1, 211
      Canada 1 in 1, 305
      India 1 in 3, 008
      Australia 1 in 15, 494
      New Zealand 1 in 175, 607

      • Sabine 13.1.1

        Germany Population some 80 odd millions

        Germany location – a transit country in the middle of europe

        NZ> 5 million – with several thousands not allowed to come back home – non of that happening in Germany.

        NZ location – two islands in the middle of nowhere close to antarctica with closed doors since March 2020.

        do you see the difference or is that too hard?

        I don't actually care about the number of death, because i believe we have not seen the worst yet.

        Germany is in its fourth wave of covid. Lol, we are in our first.

        Germany, like Israel has now a large population that is falling out of hte vaccinated group into unvaccinated due to people not taking up booster shots.

        Germanys Covid response is 16 odd states doing it on their own devices.

        Do you see the difference?

        And again, i don't actually have an issue with how NZ has handled the covid crisis, i still think that we started vaccinating way to late and should have started when people were still scared of covid.

        But do you see the difference between all of the countries above and NZ? Heck, take Italy for example, Italy last year showed the white world just how scary Covid is, had no medication, no idea how to treat it etc etc etc. Where it not for Italy we would probably never had closed our border.

        Do you actually understand that?

        • dv 13.1.1.1

          Yes

          • Sabine 13.1.1.1.1

            good, then we can fi nally stop comparing NZ to countries that are situated in one of hte most populated part of this planet.

            NZ is doing well, but a lot of that is due to its location, and the fact that the first outbreaks did not happen here but elsewhere. If we would have been Italy last year, we would be looking as bad as any of those that you listed above.

            Our distance to the rest of the world is literally what keeps us safe for the most part.

      • Bearded Git 13.1.2

        Great numbers DV ….I would add that the Economist, a respectable rag, says that 20 million have died from Covid rather than the 5 million widely reported.

        • Sabine 13.1.2.1

          Early on in the outbreak in China there were rumors on "moon of alabama" that hte numbers from China did not add up. Same with India. And i find that quite credible.

  13. joe90 14

    Our Harete ain't too bright.

    • SPC 14.1

      Former MP for Whanganui, expect to see a lot of National's MP's at protests when Ardern goes to Auckland as Collins is telling her to … .

      • observer 14.1.1

        I don't think they are that stupid. One or two maybe, but not more.

        The last thing National MPs want is to be on camera standing next to the Brian Tamaki fan club, people screaming about alien experiments and assorted Facebook fringe fascists.

        • SPC 14.1.1.1

          The restraint might be too hard – it's sort of inevitable given their stable of MPs (as inevitable as the impertinent and inexplicable apostrophe)

        • McFlock 14.1.1.2

          but they do want the nutbar vote. So bit of a conundrum for them, there.

          • alwyn 14.1.1.2.1

            National getting the nutbar vote?

            Extremely unlikely for that to happen I should think. The members of that group are all, in my experience, still wedded to the belief that they would all be dead if it wasn't for the fact that that lovely young woman St. Cindy saved all their lives and that she is absolutely wonderful. They remain totally under her spell because without her at least 80,000 of them would have died.

            No, the nutbar vote is still joined at the hip to the Labour Party. Whether it will remain so once the Auckland residents are allowed to roam free is probably up for debate but I think they will stay until this Christmas is through.

            • SPC 14.1.1.2.1.1

              So you think women who sometimes vote National but who voted Labour in 2020 are the nutbar vote?

              • alwyn

                Not the ones who did so but have since repented. Only those who still won't see how they were conned.

            • observer 14.1.1.2.1.2

              Nutbar? How about …

              Labour = nazis. Apartheid. "The Great Reset". Vaccination = Rape.

              All slogans on their protest signs, and/or promoted in their social media.

              Meet your friends.

              • alwyn

                They are certainly no friends of mine. Bloody idiots I should think. Or at least the first two and the last one. I have no idea what anyone means when they say thing like "The Great Reset".

                Is that the same as the old Ctrl, Alt, Delete on a PC?

            • McFlock 14.1.1.2.1.3

              lol

              I like how the outer bound of the worst case scenario in the range of possibilities projected at the beginning of the pandemic has been morphed into "at least 80,000". Really adds to the great globs of hypocrisy dripping from your lying comments.

              • alwyn

                You really should read what I say more carefully before you sound off in such a silly manner. I am not the one saying the things you are complaining about. It is those foolish people who still believe in your leader who seem to think the statement is true. That is why I would describe them as nutbars. What do you think is their correct designation?

                I suggest that in future you should talk about the foolish people who still believe in the Government we have rather than lie in ascribing their foolish conceits to me. Begone you silly boy. And wash your moth out before you dare to return.

                • McFlock

                  Your experience genuinely includes people earnestly expressing the belief that "at least 80,000" NZers would have died from covid?

                  Nah. Bullshit.

                  • alwyn

                    Some really do. Not as many as there used to be but there are still some who remain deluded. Hard to believe isn't it but then, according to Roy Morgan, there are still 39.5% of people who would prefer Labour as their chosen party if a poll had been held last month.

                    I don't expect either group of people to remain the size they are though. Most of them will come to their senses and change their views. I imagine they will convert to being ACTites. Or perhaps they will revert to NZF and Winston will be reincarnated.

                    • KJT

                      "Satirist strikes again".

                      Amazing how many NACT supporters try for the Jonathan Swift award.

                    • alwyn

                      @KJT

                      I thought you must have been joking when you mentioned such an award. Apparently they really do exist though.

                      https://www.creativewriting.ie/annual-jonathan-swift-creative-writing-awards-2020/

                      The small print says you have to pay to enter though, I think I will treat it like the offers that occasionally turn up in my emails where the head of the World Bank wants to give me a few million dollars if I just provide him with an account to pay it to and a bit of cash to arrange the transfer.

                    • McFlock

                      Statistically-speaking, somewhere in the country there (theoretically) could be someone who took seriously the misrepresentations of casualty projections your ilk have been spreading for the last 18months. I doubt you've ever met them, though.

                      But their claimed existence is just another example of you and other tories trying to undermine any and every response to a public health threat that has killed millions around the world.

                      Tories would rather have dead NZers than an even vaguely left wing government.

                    • alwyn

                      @McFlock

                      "Statistically-speaking, somewhere in the country there (theoretically) could be someone who took seriously the idea that Tories would rather have dead NZers than an even vaguely left wing government".

                      I find it very hard to believe that such people exist but you appear to be such an idiot. I'm glad I have never met such a person. Do you really believe the crazy views that you are expounding?

                    • McFlock

                      Frankly, that thought is less disturbing than the possibility that you lot are actually trying to help.

                    • roblogic

                      Umm what do the polls say about your chosen messiah Judith??

                      Meanwhile Covid spokesman Chris Bishop is unable to utter a sentence without contradicting himself 3 times in the space of 5 minutes.

                      Nat MPs are tacitly supporting superspreader events and even showing up at loony antivax protests.

                      The dirty politics rump is all that remains of the nutbar Nats.

                    • alwyn

                      @roblogic

                      "your chosen messiah Judith".

                      Well you are clearly someone who doesn't read my comments. The nicest thing I can recall saying about Ms Collins is that New Zealand would be better of if we had a Government led by her than by the present incumbent. That would just about be the case with anyone in the job.

                      The last thing I said about Ms Collins was, I think, "The National Party leader is uninspiring, to put it politely." Does that sound like something I would say if I thought she was the messiah?

                • Shanreagh

                  And wash your moth out before you dare to return.

                  I went to boarding school with a woman who was petrified of moths. What you are envisaging Alwyn would have been the cruellest torture for her both with the moth in the mouth and then getting it out again. wink

                  • alwyn

                    Whoops. Sorry about the typo. I really should read things more carefully before hitting enter. I can see why someone could be terrified of such a thing. Particularly if it was something like the Borneo beetles they have in Brunei. They sound just like a baby crying.

                    • In Vino

                      In terms of dealing out multitudinous and venomous insults to anyone who supports a person or policy that you do not agree with alwyn, I see you as the best example of a nutbar.

      • Shanreagh 14.1.2

        The PM should not go to Auckland, what is the point? Her meetings will be hijacked by the anti vax/mandate fringe. Despite what these people think they do not represent a cross section of Aucklanders.

        • alwyn 14.1.2.1

          From what people I know in Auckland tell me there is rapidly developing a rather large, very cross, group of residents. They are more likely to be singing an old spiritual rather than waving placards though.

          Remember Peter, Paul and Mary singing "Go tell it on the mountain"?

          The relevant line was in the chorus. "Let my people go".

          • Shanreagh 14.1.2.1.1

            Auckland moves next week, Mon-Tues to a lower level lvl 3 step 2

            At Step 2:

            • retail can open, with customers keeping 2 metres apart, and staff and customers required to wear face coverings
            • public facilities like libraries, museums and zoos can reopen, with face coverings required and people keeping 2 metres apart
            • outdoor gatherings of up to 25 people can go ahead, with the removal of the 2-household restriction. Physical distancing is strongly encouraged to help prevent the virus spreading between households.
            • funerals, tangihanga, weddings and civil union ceremonies can have up to 25 people attending, as well as up to 5 staff
            • outdoor organised exercise classes, like yoga and bootcamps, can expand to 25 people, including instructors. Physical distancing of 2 metres is strongly encouraged.

            All other restrictions remain as in Step 1. ie contactless takeaways.

            If you listen to many Aucklanders though it is as if nothing is happening. I can see differences between where they are now and what is proposed eg retail, some cultural etc. .

  14. observer 15

    Covid update, South Island edition:

    Couple of weeks ago: "Boo, they don't even mention us any more".

    Then: "Oh no, they're mentioning us."

    Today: "Phew, they don't even mention us."

  15. SPC 16

    There are two camps

    1. Baker who wants 5 to 11 year olds vaccinated before they go back to school (he means those in Auckland this year and those in other areas next year when spread goes nationwide)

    2. Those who note that the oldies will need boosters by Christmas because of a rising risk of breakthrough infections – the rest home in Auckland has 12 cases.

    One little problem we do not have enough vaccines to do either before March next year (just get to 90% first dose and second dose and boosters to those with immune deficiency).

    The Auckland 5 to 11 year olds are at little risk from infection themselves just of being spread agents to the oldies and or unvaccinated.

    Those who think 90/90 and traffic light and open borders here we go for summer seem to have missed this little dilemma.

    • weka 16.1

      almost like the vaccine isn't a silver bullet and we will continue to need other tools alongside.

      • SPC 16.1.1

        For the Pfizer vaccine reluctant we should get the Astra Zeneca anti bodies (they last months and are given prior to infection, so work on any infection – unlike the more expensive monoclonal ones we have purchased to treat unvaccinated high risk patients after infection.

        For the rna vaccine reluctant we have ordered the novavax vaccine – but it has no "form" in relation to delta (only earlier variants) and is not likely to be here till autumn.

        And we have ordered the Merck anti-viral treatment.

        We may need higher levels of flu vaccine uptake than usual next winter – something to watch this northern winter.

        And widely available home test kits and safe workplace rapid testing (incl temperature) and effective bubbles around health care centres.

        And of course the old and health compromised need the boosters here already …if they survive the Christmas and summer (ask the Irish about Dec 2020/Jan 2021) the positive is that the boosters should be effective through for the winter that is coming.

        Otherwise store up Vitamin D/K2 and the zinc – and hoard saline solution spray and gargle ….

  16. Poission 17

    The Auckland 5 to 11 year olds are at little risk from infection themselves just of being spread agents to the oldies and or unvaccinated.

    They are at risk of substantive changes in their physiology including ageing.

    • SPC 17.1

      Are not the cases cited of impact on the aging of cells related to older people?

      • SPC 17.1.1

        By that I mean while its impact is greater on those under 60, is not based on a study of those who got COVID and those not infected. It may not speak to the circumstance of younger people who get asymptomatic infections.

    • RedLogix 17.2

      Fuck me.

      • Nic the NZer 17.2.1

        I'm wondering what happens if Medsafe doesn't ratify 5-11 y.o vaccinations as well. Its at least a possibility given earlier statements by health authorities overseas (and if Medsafe is doing its job they can say no, or more evidence needed first).

  17. SPC 18

    National wants to allow returning Kiwis double vaxxed home isolation.

    The more measured option is to Auckland only. And prioritise

    1. first those from low spread areas

    2. those going into homes where no one over 12 is unvaxxed.

    This frees up spots in Auckland MI for those from outside the area – and for those who want to buy there way in fast there is the option of airbnb stays).

  18. aj 19

    Sharing the monkey bars with your little pee wee Petri dishes

    • georgecom 19.1

      I had a go at a guy down the road today who should be self isolating due to being a close contact of a covid case but I saw him out and about in his car.

      I faced him down and called him on it, he is a known druggie.

      He admitted his addiction and need for a hit was the reason he left the house.

      He told me he is addicted to laxatives.

      "hows that going for you?" I asked

      "pretty shit" was his reply

    • left for dead 19.2

      That made my night,cheers.And to all those other dipsticks out there,grow up.!

  19. Peter 21

    At the beginning of the pandemic there were some who wanted nothing special to be done, things were to carry on as normal. No lockdowns, no restrictions on people coming or going from the country.

    There are many now saying the government should do this, shouldn't do that around Auckland, now and at Christmas.

    What do they exactly want? The government to pack up, say "nothing to see here, as you were, carry on?" And everything will be 'normal' as in November 2019?

    • Patricia Bremner 21.1

      Yes they "want to have their cake and eat it as well"

      • Shanreagh 21.1.1

        winkThey also confirm my theory that a passenger virus floated in with Covid. I call it the Moaning Minnie virus.

        First noticed in the 2020 outbreak it reached maximum impact in the outbreak of the Delta variant in 2021. Researchers (well only me but the plural sounds better) have posited that the strength of the new Delta variant has meant that the accompanying Moaning Minnie virus is similarly stronger.

        There are unsupported theories about spread.

        Typical signs that a patient has been affected show up as:

        -overuse of the word hating (the word is used more frequently than usual as an emotional descriptor ) authority figures.

        -assigning personal malice to health regulations and those who approve them, the side effect of this is that the patient hamstrings themselves by their reaction and hands over control of their feelings and reactions to someone else

        -a marked inability to be thankful for small mercies or even large mercies such as not being dead.

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