The Herald is now beginning to list the Prime Minister’s memory lapses. I think we should assist its reporters with a few others. Lord Ashcroft’s visit for starters.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10875266
Here’s their list Quote
Key’s memory lapses
* Forgot how many Tranz Rail shares he owned.
* Unsure if and when he was briefed by GCSB on Kim Dotcom.
* Forgot how he voted on drinking age.
* Could not recall whether he was for or against the 1981 Springbok Tour.
* Could not remember who was aboard mystery CIA jet parked at Wellington airport.
* Forgot he phoned future director of GCSB urging him to apply for the job.
Unquote
I doubt that it is a simply case of cronyism. Copyright was obviously at the center of the DotCom affair, and the copyright industry’s approach to “moral rights” should give one pause. Industry affiliates were involved in distributing file sharing software and promoted the sharing of copyrighted material. The RIAA then pushed for legislation against piracy which resulted in awards of up to 150,000 US dollars per track of digital audio. Ian Fletcher worked for the UK Intellectual Property Office for about three years.
The industry’s approach to “moral rights” involves ignoring ethical sharing of copyrighted works consistent with fair use, and the industry labels all sharing of copyrighted material as theft regardless of the innocence of such fair use. The term “intellectual property” is an oxymoron because intellectual works in society do not have the quality of exclusive possession essential to all property.
Copyright enforcement can be used as a cover for internet espionage. Microsoft spent considerable effort implementing DRM (digital rights management) into Windows Vista. The implementation of DRM and other security features into Vista caused so many technical problems that many users abandoned Vista and returned to Windows XP. Microsoft has long been suspected of collaborating with the NSA after an encryption key called _NSAKEY was discovered in Windows NT.
In which Mark Ames goes Hunteresque, on the occasion of Andrew Breitbart’s aniversary, with regard to claims that Breitbart was anything other than a carnival barker with a legacy of, well, ‘shit’ pretty much covers it:
Big steel framed highrise building (highest high rise over there) engulfed completely in flames in Grozny, Chechnya. Guess that one will collapse into the path of most resistance in freefall speed soon too. It happened after all three times on 9/11.
To free fall symmetrically and straight downwards on to its own footprint, the building requires not just a one sided fire, it also needs to be unevenly hit from just one side by a jet plane!
So why do either of you think the building is of the same construction type as WTC?
Please respond with some substantiation of the claim that these buildings are of the same construction type as WTC. I’d really prefer not to have to conclude you really are bullshit artists.
You don’t consider your gut to be a sense organ? ***Guffaw*** Shit dude you better do a bit more research.
that’s why I asked for something verifiable.
Nah, you’ve set your view in place. You believe that its quite possible that highly assymetrical damage to a structure can cause that structure to fail instantaneously in a highly symmetrical way.
And that it happened 3 times within 12 hours at the same location.
Shit, is there even a need for controlled demolitions work any more? Just set a random fire in a skyscraper, crash a jet into one side, and straight down she goes, safe and sound on to its own building footprint, barely touching anything else around.
So I ask for verification that these buildings are like the WTC, and in response; Strawman arguments.
Typical, but sad that you’d rather talk about anything else than the question I asked.
Why’s that? Mind made up is it?
Do.Not.Question.The.Truther.Narrative.
Feel free to prove me wrong by saying that yeah, building structure is relevant to the comparison, and that no you didn’t bother to check it out and that yes you’ll do better next time.
“So why do either of you think the building is of the same construction type as WTC?”
PB, even the 911 Commission didn’t bother with silly facts like how the buildings were constructed. Hell with WTC 1 & WTC 2 they decided 94 boxsteel columns, each 110 stories high did not even exist.
Forget for a minute about what happened on September 11 2001 and instead sit watch learn think on how they are constructed and how the visual proof of their construction completely contradicts all official explanations of the Towers’ demise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__gUjUv1vvw
PB but you are the one who believes that highly assymetrical damage to a building can cause that building to fail in a completely symmetrical way.
3x in 12 hours.
The same exact failure effect in two completely different building types, but where only one of which suffered damage from aviation fuel and airliners.
Tall buildings are not solid blocks of wood or corn-flake packs that topple over if you push them. They’re amazing strong in some ways, fragile in others and they behave counter to the intuition bred by observing small solid objects.
The WTC centre towers were steel truss construction, which is light and efficient, but has its , um, problems… I don’t know if the Grozny building is truss or girder construction. That would make a difference.
Buildings are designed to resist horizontal forces due to wind and earthquake, which can be quite substantial (for example, going through the sums on construction and engineering for buildings in Wellington, as an undergrad, I was quite surprised to discover that due to wind-generated lift, much structure is generally devoted to keeping a roof down rather than up.)
Moreover, an airliner, while somewhat heavy (but built as light as possible in order to fly) is quite fragile and certainly not designed to resist being flown into a building, so its structure crumples and is shredded immediately as it impacts. The real problem is all the burning aviation fuel.
Now, steel building usually have what is called intumescent foam protecting the structure. This is an insulation that swells up when heated, protecting the steel structure. Under “normal” fire conditions, it will do just that, but the explosion of a plane exploding can suddenly strip off the intumescent foam normally protecting the steel truss structure used in the WTC buildings. Burning aviation fuel then continues to burn, heating the steel which loses much of its structural strength well below its melting point.
The truss then catastrophically gives way, unable to support the floor. The weight of the whole building above that floor suddenly slams down on the floor below… and you can guess the rest. Rather than this being a path of “most resistance”, a vertical piledriver effect is inevitable and unstoppable.
The energy used to destroy the building is in fact not the initial impact, but all the gravitational potential energy devoted to lifting its entire mass into the sky in the first place when it was constructed.
The truss then catastrophically gives way, unable to support the floor. The weight of the whole building above that floor suddenly slams down on the floor below
That’s the mental model they proposed in the official report.
Of course we should also consider that the weight of those top floors was already being supported by the structure underneath, it was not new weight which came from nowhere.
Also – did you notice that big huge reinforced concrete floors didn’t slam downwards at all – a large amount of that mass somehow pulverised into dust and ejected out sideways from the collapsing building.
Mass (weight) times velocity equals momentum. This is kinetic energy – a lot, a delivered in an instant.
Take a egg. You can gently rest the head of a hammer on the egg. Now drop the hammer on the egg.
Actually, the floors were not big huge reinforced slabs. They were comparatively light slabs pored over metal deck, supported, as I said, by a truss system.
Understood. I’ll buy the momentum theory IF the majority of the mass part of the equation was not lost as pulverised material as the fall took place.
Because if a lot of mass was lost during the free fall (ejected out the sides of the building) the strongest floors in the bottom half of the building, should have easily survived.
It doesn’t Matter if something is pulverized it still has the same mass and momentum drop a feather or rock in still air they will land at the same time gravity is constant.
yes and even Commander David Scott proved gravity is a constant in the Universe we have thus experienced, but don’t you want to know how the concrete became pulverized? I would love to know how the concrete at and above the point of collapse got pulverized but especially would like to know how it became pulverized at the moment of initial collapse.
mostly i want to know how can gravity throw steel girders hundreds of feet laterally to be embedded in other buildings. ( including some girders that were identified as originating from near and even above the point of ‘collapse’)
The collapse was obviously not a polite, neat retraction but a more complex affair, with forces transmitted not through the ether but through complexly branching structural members, concentrating at the nodes. Elements will buckle, bend and then fail suddenly – and catastrophically, ith all the pent-up energy suddenly released.
Take a delicate structure (and a skyscraper is delicate at its scale) and crush it and inevitably some parts will be flung sideways.
at and above the point of collapse
Gravity leads down. The kinetic force of an impact propagates in all directions.
Of course, the other point is that one truther argues that the towers fell vertically into their own footprint, while another argues steel girders were throw hundreds of feet laterally.
If only there was some sort of consistent, logical methodology by which one can create mathematical models of reality and then test the resulting hypotheses in the real world. Rather than starting from a conclusion and inventing elaborate, untestable theories that need to be evaluated more by faith than reason.
… so one should never think about engineering with the heart, gut or the pancreas or whatever.
The most common and most reflexive and hardest to overcome mental habit is to think that large structures behave like small solid objects – ie., toppling over over when nudged.
There’s a catalogue here of things that feel “right” but are utterly wrong:
Momentum is simple Newtonian physics, it’s not something one has a choice about “buying”.
OK, the mass. First, a cloud of dust and debris seen expanding from the side of a building is impressive, but minor in terms of mass. When concrete shatters, it breaks into a range of larger and smaller pieces right down to dust size. The dust particles, being of lower mass, can be thrown further sideways as they fall down. The larger chunks remain within.
Most of the structure is steel, however, and steel is ductile, meaning that it stretches, bends and tears, but essentially stays together as large clumps.
In addition to the trusses, we have office equipment – desks, chairs, couches, heavy wood conference tables, computers, whiteboards, TVs, stereos, feather dusters, toilets and sinks, files in cabinets and shelves, (paper is very heavy – archives and libraries have to have specially strengthened floors), paintings, bronze sculptures, carpet, plumbing and air-conditioning systems, vending machines, catering equipment and food, refrigerators, bottled drinks, water reservoirs, cables, glass, potted plants, aquaria, partitions, suspended ceilings, paperweights, packed lunches, burgers and fries, people… etc etc.
Not very much ends up as dust and there’s not so much forcing that mass sideways anyway. Everything, even the dust, is heading down.
<strongest floors in the bottom half of the building, should have easily survived
Nope. Not “even if”. Nothing is infinitely strong. Consider the thought experiment of a 100-storey building. Floor 99 has the mass of floor 100 above it. Floor 98 has the weight of floors 99 and 100… and so on. If floor 99 cannot resist the strike of Floor 100 hitting it, then in order for Floor 1 to survive, the force hitting it must be less than that of 100 striking 99, meaning that over 99% of the total mass of the building met be made to disappear.
This is impossible.
And that is without accounting for the acceleration of the falling mass. On earth, an object in free fall accelerates at 9.8 metres per second per second. I couldn’t calculate the effect of deceleration caused by crumpling, but I think that you should get my point.
The “thingies” are structural cores and elevator shafts. All part of the same. Partly, in their case, they get dragged down in some cases as the floors are welded and bolted to them.
Again, no material is infinitely strong and large structures an aircraft are designed to be slightly better than they need to be under expected conditions, otherwise they would not be economical or useable and wouldn’t be built in the first place.
Slightly better If things go outside expected conditions, then Murphy’s Second Law comes into force – anything that has gone wrong will get worse (and fast).
the thingies are the box steel columns that support the structure that houses your cores and elevator shafts. and yes they were attached to the floor trusses, more accurately the floor trusses were attached to the Columns. Otherwise tall buildings have a bad case of not standing up. They are ‘attached’ with thousands of welded steel rivets and bolts. Thermodynamics has some pretty constant cause and effect scenarios and disspation of heat along a connected steel body is pretty well understood.
All these people that regurgitate the ‘heat brought down the towers’ lie must find it terrifying as the world witnesses a constant stream of steel structures being destroyed by fire. What fortitude they express every time they light the woodburner at home, cook a meal on the stove, drive a car or engage that most dangerous piece of technology known to man, a gas fired barbeque. The horror the horror
Go on then, let’s see you consider it. Tick tock tick tock, twelve years, no evidence, and not one piece of checkable engineering calculations. Well, apart from all these. that is, which you have not the tools nor the experience, but crucially, not the inclination nor scepticism nor the honesty to consider, preferring instead to defame the authors and throw red herrings around.
No evidence? The issue is that the current official evidence and analysis was limited in scope and does not match up to what was observed.
You may call it “sad” or whatever adjectives you might like, but nothing in the NIST documents detailed events satisfactorily explains the perfectly symmetrical collapse of those 3 buildings of two completely different types.
I’ll add that what Architects and Engineers for 9/11 are asking for is a complete widescope official inquiry. You seem to think its time to move on, all done and dusted. As it were.
It is done and dusted, CV. This thread is proof of that; it’s the first bit of 9/11 truth denialism on TS for months. It used to be a regular feature of open mike, but with the passage of time, the fantasy loses its relevence.
Much as the ‘Elvis is alive’ thing only lasted a few years, 911 delusions will fade fast. Particularly so after the failure of that conference in Toronto to provide any actual evidence. Without credible proof of an alternative, sensible, rational people will stick with the blindingly obvious truth. Which is that the US was sucker punched by a small team of committed fanatics who succesfully did the unthinkable.
Actually it was HARRP, using thermite-laden chemtrails, that perpetrated 9/11.
What fools like you don’t realise is that all the buildings are still there. The whole thing is the biggest mass hallucination since Buzz Aldrin single-handedly faked the moon landings.
Is this comment part of your social experiment, muzza, or are you being deliberately dim? It really was the guys in the cave, that much we know. The attack was carried out by brainwashed wannabees on behalf of the guys in the caves. This we also know. There is no evidence of an alternative conspiracy after 12 years of right wing blathering. Fact.
So, bloke, P’s B and the rest of us rational thinkers aren’t scared, we’re just well grounded and capableof making sensible conclusions based on the known facts. Any time you can provide evidence that contradicts the known facts, let us know. But, I won’t hold my breath, because after twelve long years, there still isn’t a skerrick of proof that anyone else did it.
So, bloke, P’s B and the rest of us rational thinkers aren’t scared, we’re just well grounded and capableof making sensible conclusions based on the known facts
Here’s another reason I’m emotionally invested in this. The adults would like to be able to have a sensible discussion of US foreign policy, which is pretty much a terrorism factory so far as I can tell, but every time anyone raises it we have to listen to the dimwit chorous insisting we watch this video.
What is my emotional investment? Ethics: specifically. your complete lack of any: your whole argument is based on a premise of fraud perpetrated by individuals you’ve never met, but you think nothing of smearing them and effectively accusing them of being accessories to mass murder.
Your right wing behaviour is disgusting, so I’ll continue to show my contempt and disgust,.
whole argument is based on a premise of fraud perpetrated by individuals you’ve never met, but you think nothing of smearing them and effectively accusing them of being accessories to mass murder.
You dont see the irony in your comment do you!
Lets walk it through:
Fraud perpetuated by individuals you have never met – Yet you defend the *official conspiracy theory*, produced by people you have never met, with agendas you claim don’t exist, yet have been rolled out in broad daylight since 2001! Forget about the missing 2.3T Rumsfeld was on the hook for !
smearing them – Yet the smearing has been primarily and agressively against the islamic religion, and people of arabic ethnicity as a whole, while being rather ad hoc in the applications of which group is being smeared, and for which purpose, ever since!
effectively accusing them of being accessories to mass murder – But your belief/support of the *official conspiracy theory* indicates you are comfortable that an entire religion/ethnic peoples are layed waste around the ME/Africa, under the same pretence of being, *accessories to murder*.
The USA sows a bunch of dragon’s teeth; they multiply, as dragon’s teeth will.
My respect for Physics and Engineering says absolutely nothing about my opinion of US foreign policy, or Islam, or politics, or any combination thereof.
So stop putting words in my mouth, you tiresome cretin.
My respect for Physics and Engineering says absolutely nothing about my opinion of US foreign policy,
And there it is again – Its not respect of physics, engineering or any such thing, its the fear you have built up through your attachment to *believing you know whats going on, and having the theoretical answers to it rationalise it all*. Fear of what is left of you, if you actually didn’t have the answers…
Do you remember the little chat we had about confirmation bias Muzza? You remember how I said it’s inescapable by definition. Whether or not you believe this to be true, I certainly do, so:
Remind me how that gells with the notion that I believe I know what’s going on, you tiresome cretin.
I work for the CIA. And I take my instructions from the alien who remote-piloted the drone into the Pentagon. And I mutilate cows from my black helicopter, just for fun.
so just checking, how many times did NIST change not only the modelling but the very theory of how it all eventuated? Exactly how far did they stretch [fabricate] the data to fit a hypothesis that is unknown in the history of steel framed construction? On WTC7 for example they changed their mind three times and then created a whole new physical risk for steel framed buildings, all hail Thermal Expansion. Putting WTC 1&2 aside as there is no plane involvement, and just looking at WTC7, then according to NIST that building in Russia should have collapsed hours ago. Same with many large buildings of various construction that have had major fires this past decade. Only on September 11 2001 did three steel framed buildings collapse due to fire. Never before and never since.
and there was something else too . .. oh yeah
NIST might love to mention the horiziontal methods used in the Towers’ construction but have you ever noticed they do not like to mention the Columns that held the Towers upright ? They even go so far as to say that the central cavity where the lifts were housed were empty space. Every animation has zero columns. You go on about data, why can you not see past the rhetoric and look at the inconsistency in the data. Not just the specifics but the big picture.
“do not like to mention” is more than a little different from “do not mention” which you are not so subtley implying that i said.
When it comes to the official explanation for the physical events that occured the columns are barely referenced and in much of the modelling they are sidelined or removed completely so as to be insignificant to the result. NIST have all but admitted this themselves, along with the extremes they had to go to to make any of their floor collapse models actually work let alone produce the desired result. A result which people far more qualified then I have shown to be seriously flawed in its methodology.
I do love that deniers try to make out the 9/11 Truth movement is a ragtag bunch of a half dozen loons sitting in front of a video desk making shit up and posting it on Youtube. Youtube is a source of videos that people have collated and edited, yes, even disinfo has had its place amongst it all. (and many youtube vids are highly educational, there’s this one with a banana and a rubber band . . )
But, and this is a big but, the movement also has produced numerous technical papers and regularly laid out simple and direct questions for the relevant authorities to answer. Silence is the most common response. Remember many many things went on that day in many different places and none of it has been adequately answered, yet the World got turned on its head because of the events on September 11 2001.
Many of the questions and the cases they refer to are presented at great expense by the families of the victims. They are regularly subjected to delays and obfuscation and all too often sketchy legal processes have been employed that flat out deny the due process under reasons of National Secruity amongst others.
What you can choose to ignore if you so wish is the simple Truth, this movement is a global network of professionals and laymen who have co-ordinated their limited resources to attempt the accurate and honest discovery of the events of that terrible day. So yes they charge $18 USD for a book, (current on Amazon) because they did not have access to the millions of tax dollars that funded the official story. By the way, the Official 911 Commission volume still costs $8 USD (current on Amazon) yet it was paid for entirely by taxpayers. On the funding note, AE911truth are currently asking for donations for a co-ordinated global Ad campaign to raise 9/11 Truth awareness. Just suckers for punishment I guess.
The vast resources of numerous Governments and associated Agencies continue to this day to work against the wishes of the victims’ families and the first responders that have survived. Sadly, the number of survivors is dwindling and just a few weeks ago further cuts were made to the support offered to these heroes. So perhaps the scale of the discussion is the thing that so aggravates you, or the fact it is growing and not dissolving into nothingness as so many hoped it would. We are not going anywhere. We will not be silenced, but as far as 9/11 talk on the Standard goes I stated back in 2011 that regular dialogues were achieving little and causing unhelpful aggression. Today shows that little has changed. The Standard juggles enough already and I prefer the one on one in real life now. I like the human element as it allows for more of an honest Q&A that actually produces tactile results as lines of enquiry can be dutifully followed and the point scoring that fascinates so many is thankfully absent. Today, as mentioned , was a passing prod at the sleeping bear. Next time, like so many recent opportunities, I will probably not pick up the stick.
one thing more, I don’t recall you standing up in front of Richard Gage on his NZ visit and calling him a right wing moron.
nice to know you care though, holding hands is another of life’s good things
WTC7 is clearly seen on a video clip to have sustained substantial structural damage from very large segments of falling debris from the North Tower. Gashes go through several floors in the back at the middle and southwest corner. It can also be clearly seen in the same video that fiery debris has ignited fires on nearly all floors and those burned for hours. Its collapse in total is not at freefall speed but consistent with structural failure. The collapse is initiated at the Southwest corner and progresses suddenly as each floor impacts the next with fire-weakened steel unable to resist the weight and velocity. The building did not collapse into its own footprint as some claim, it can can be seen in pictures and video to have fallen backwards – its different coloured debris is atop the North Tower debris. The 9/11 building demolition conspiracy isn’t gaining ground because its debunked in so many places.
Its ok Arfamo, you tell yoursrlf what you like, then take it up with the demolition experts, who commented specifically on WTC7.
Forget the fact the building housed all the financial transactiosn data, which only days earlier, existed, and would have meant that Donald Rumsfeld would have had a tough time wishing away the $2.3T of *lost funds* through the pentagon, which had been front page news, and was not going away,
How convenient that all was, not to mention the building housed the data store for huge amounts of fiancial entities, which vansished, never to be talked of again!
Nothing in it though, just all coincidence!
Edit – I work with an american, senior guy, former DoD employee for 8 years. His position is that all 3 buildings were blown up. Not a good look for your point of view, if you get to speak with people such as him. I had that conversation just last week, it was interesting to hear an american who worked for such entities, having that view, and talking about it!
the passages you are no doubt referring to
“Many of the questions and the cases they refer to are presented at great expense by the families of the victims. ” and “The vast resources of numerous Governments and associated Agencies continue to this day to work against the wishes of the victims’ families and the first responders that have survived. ”
Neither of these state all the families or all the victims and it is a fifty fifty call how you got there i suppose. Though as we sit here, the many lives involved which unacknowledged illnesses and needless tragedies continue to diminish, should not have to suffer the indignity of being so easily dismissed.
I’m not going to get into a semantic argument about it.
I just think the bigger indignity is being the obsessive hobby of nutjobs around the world.
I get some of the victims clutching at straws in grief. But most truthers? Pffft.
I just think the bigger indignity is being the obsessive hobby of nutjobs around the world.
I get some of the victims clutching at straws in grief. But most truthers? Pffft.
A variation of the usual liar line – honour the dead by not asking too many questions.
Nope. But if it really was pretty much just hijackers + plane+towers=thousands dead, it makes your average truther half a world away look like a bit of a dick.
Like I say, grieving relatives is one thing.
But hobbyists who can’t get their stories straight are in grave danger of being dicks.
Yeah I guess being afraid to look like dicks should be a real consideration. Just try to remember that most of the people who died because of 9/11 didn’t die on that day.
Frankly, I’m don’t think a lot of truthers give as much of a damn about the dead as they do about believing in their own superior knowledge about nefarious global conspiracies and how much better the world would be if everyone were intellectual giants like them.
What you can choose to ignore if you so wish is the simple Truth, this movement is a global network of professionals and laymen who have co-ordinated their limited resources to attempt the accurate and honest discovery of the events of that terrible day. So yes they charge $18 USD for a book, (current on Amazon) because they did not have access to the millions of tax dollars that funded the official story.
😆 so they can uncover the biggest most pernicious conspiracy in history, but not leverage that into wealth and power without my $20? And why is everyone laughing at them? You. Whichever.
“heating the steel which loses much of its structural strength well below its melting point.”
Absolutely true hot steel can bend. It cannot however cause thousands of welded rivets on every floor to consistently and simultaneously fail, which is required for the collapse theory to work. Also, if you have a minute, could you be so kind as to explain where the vast quantity of extreme heat came from to form the pools of molten metal that were still being discovered weeks after the Towers’ collapse? Then again why bother . . .
There are literally thousands and thousands of points that a tit for tat truth game fail to adequately cover. As entertaining as it can be, it is also a waste of resources as very few supporters of the Official Story who engage in Truth discussions on-line, ever do it honestly and with an open mind.
In my little life, one on one dialogue has proven to be the only reliable method of 911 discussion that actually stands a chance of combating the ignorance that stubbornly refuses to follow the facts. 911 Truth is more complex than a single event and the back and forth of a chatbox cannot come close to the soul crunching reality of having to lie to another’s face when the Truth finally busts the door in on your psyche. It is perhaps one of the most difficult re-adjustments a person will ever make in their life. Knowing the world is a big evil place blah blah blah is one thing, Accepting the totality of the lie that was sold to the world takes guts and has broken people. Only you can decide how much truth you are willing to sweep under the carpet, only you have to live with the lumpy rug of your life.
Actually I can, but I never start such an analyses without understanding different alternative big pictures which might come into play. You’ve already decided however.
CV, what a load of bollocks. If NIST’s maths are wrong, all you need is a blackboard and some chalk.
What was it that helped me decide? For one thing, the fact that instead of blackboards and chalk (or even, god forbid, some actual engineering software), all you’ve got is a series of breathless talking heads on Youtube and a bunch of defamatory false allegations against NIST employees.
I don’t like your right wing bullshit any more than I like John Key’s
CV being right wing now too? That seems to be your only response these days. I believe it was CV who had to back out for a while because he upset the Labour leadership and he wanted to stay with the “left wing” party.
“As entertaining as it can be, it is also a waste of resources as very few supporters of the Official Story who engage in Truth discussions on-line, ever do it honestly and with an open mind.”
One Tāne Huna, I have been impressed in the past when you state that people need to open their mind to the real history of this Nation. You regularly berate others who don’t take off their blinkers regarding the Government’s position on numerous issues in Aotearoa especially when touching on historical innaccuracies that we live with, then you go and parrot US led propoganda designed to promote War and Poverty and Greed.
I for one get a little confused about what you actually want from this life.
The 911 debacle is, heh, a slow burner, it is not going away. My partner had an immediate “what the…” reaction watching some of the available videos particularly building 7 that was not even hit by an airplane. She is into architecture and such and no calculations were required for her to smell a rodent.
I think it will be revealed as a ‘black op’ in future decades. People on forums like this have only limited license to demand this or that from other commenters. The ongoing ferocity of the debate about 911 imo is due to people’s world view and belief systems being challenged.
Me, I am well aware of the track record of the US military/spooks and crooked offshoots. I mean they turned the ‘attack on Iraq’ into a corporate feeding frenzy.
Granada, Cuba etc anyone?
Freedom, what “propaganda”? Is the National Institute of Standards & Technology a CIA front on your planet?
Perhaps the reason I’m insisting on Physics and Engineering is the same reason I insist on a similarly skeptical approach to right wing drivel wherever it can be found. Ya think?
It cannot however cause thousands of welded rivets on every floor to consistently and simultaneously fail, which is required for the collapse theory to work.
Three rivets. One fails. The remaining two now have half again as much stress, instantly. One more fails, and now the remaining rivet’s stress has increased threefold, nearly instantly.
Also, if you have a minute, could you be so kind as to explain where the vast quantity of extreme heat came from to form the pools of molten metal that were still being discovered weeks after the Towers’ collapse?
Once the aviation fuel has ignited the fire, everything burns. That produces a hell of a lot of heat.
Heat can be lost by radiation or conduction. Surrounding materials and debris can be effective insulators, reducing conduction while blocking radiation. Radiation itself is a very slow process. Moreover, molten steel has an enormous amount of thermal energy tied up in it and takes a very long time to lose.
Never been in a steel mill?
Then again why bother . . .
The rest is sarcasm and metaphysics and is consequently of no interest.
so that’s a no to explaining anything then,
you are sticking with jet fuel and office supplies, good to know i can move on.
I can forsee a large hole resembling the shape of my forehead in the nearest wall so I am not even going to touch on the timespan required for your progressive rivet failure theory.
I thought for half a minute you might have had some logic to go with your ‘911 for parrots’ quotes but sadly the only interesting thing about your comment is your avatar and how it relates to the whole world of conspiracy theories
Given that a couple of universities have seen fit to give me a dgree in industrial design and a couple more in architecture and that their accreditation is overseen by the professions that are very cognisant of liability and that I’m now hired to teach architecture students on the integration of structure and design, I would guess that someone thinks that I do.
By the way, I don’t use Youtube in my architecture classes.
Rhinocrates,
As a suitably qualified person you would no doubt have sought out the best information and there is no more technically proficient group of Truthers than Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. You obviously contest the statements from the 1700+ Architects and Engineers who have assigned their professional reputations to the topic of 9/11 Truth. They also have lots of hard earned letters after their name. Could you please show us where they are mistaken? The coolest thing about life, more knowledge is always welcome.
My qualifications have also been declared meaningless, so some might say you’re in good company. I have no specialised knowledge of engineering or architecture, but your explanations make a lot of sense and are consistent with what engineers have told me. I even know people who work at NIST, although they weren’t part of the inquiry.
This obviously means that I support US foreign policy and think that every statement that comes out of Washington is gospel truth, so I suppose I’ll just have to live with that.
I have also never used youtube in a lecture. How my students must be deprived!!
OK, in good faith, here goes… and I’m sorry, it’s late and I have a lot of work to do tonight, so my statements are going to read like bullet points.
I don’t doubt the sincerity of anyone involved when it comes to their fundamental beliefs.
“1700” looks like a big number, but it isn’t compared to the whole range of professions – in fact, it’s a tiny minority. Still, for s single, limited human being, sifting through 1699 and missing one to have the 1700th thrown at me is not something I care enough about. So, no, I’m not going to pick on any one individual so that 1699 can be thrown at me.
Here is the difference between lawyers (and conspiracy theorists) and scientists:
A lawyer and a conspiracy theorist thinks that truth is like a house of cards – take just one card away and the entire house collapses.
A scientist knows that truth is like a jigsaw puzzle, an old one that’s been in the attic a long time. Pieces are missing, and it’s going to be hard work to fit the rest together, but if you have enough, then you have a best guess – because any other guess has far fewer pieces, because in reality, we’ll never know everything.
Yes, I will admit that Grey alien reptiod Bilderbergers from Zeta Reticuli working in concert with the Freemasons caused the dosai I ate last night to be overcooked, but I really don’t think that that was the most probable explanation by a long shot.
1 percent of uncertainty does not trump 99 percent certainty.
As Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If the claims made by the 911 Truthers require violations of the fundamental laws of physics, which have been proven for centuries now, then they had better front up – and they haven’t. In fact, the arguments that they produce require in themselves require violations of fundamental physics.
Could the US government, under George W Bush do evil things? Oh yes, of course I know that they did – but while Jack the Ripper did evil things, I still don’t think that he killed Marilyn Monroe.
FWIW, I do agree that a full and open inquiry will reveal a great deal of complicity with the Bin Laden family, and a lot of arse-covering by intelligence agencies who were incompetent or at least not omniscient, and people will do at least as much to cover up incompetence as they will to cover up complicity. So yeah, there’s cover-ups that haven’t been revealed in inquiries and won’t be.
The thing about conspiracy theories that provokes my scepticism is their assumption that the conspirators are competent.
Everything that we know about them tells us otherwise.
FWIW, I do agree that a full and open inquiry will reveal a great deal of complicity with the Bin Laden family, and a lot of arse-covering by intelligence agencies who were incompetent or at least not omniscient, and people will do at least as much to cover up incompetence as they will to cover up complicity. So yeah, there’s cover-ups that haven’t been revealed in inquiries and won’t be.
Cover ups – Check!
The thing about conspiracy theories that provokes my scepticism is their assumption that the conspirators are competent
Conspiracy Theory – Check
Cover up = Conspiracy!.
Without transparency, openess etc, there is little to no chance of gaining a clear understanding of the why/how/who, which leaves people to draw their own conclusions, using various methods and means.
Until such time as it comes into full light (unlikely), the *official narrative* must be treated as part of any conspiracy, that’s simply the consequence of a *cover up* , on any size or scale!
Maybe you could explain Newton’s Laws to us? You seem very keen on stating that none of us understand them, between your bouts of roflolling. Please enlighten us.
Once you’ve done that, I personally would be keen to have Lord Kelvin’s contributions explained as well.
“The energy used to destroy the building is in fact not the initial impact, but all the gravitational potential energy devoted to lifting its entire mass into the sky in the first place when it was constructed.”
Stupid demolition people using all that dynamite to blow up buildings while all the while those buildings really would behave like knitwork: All you need is to find a way to unleash all that potential energy devoted to keeping all that knitwork together! Find the right stitch and voila Bob’s your uncle. Same with buildings, all you need is the right bolt to break due to heat (like in building 7 apparently according to NIST) and the building will come down in freefall speed into it’s own footprint.
In the mean time the building covered in another oil product called plastic it seems which burned nicely and long unlike the Kerosene of the planes in a few initial minutes, was destroyed but did not collapse into it’s own footprint in free fall speed.
I see a lot of concrete, but haven’t identified any steel trusses that have been stripped of fire insulation (applied by a New York construction crew in the era of the five families) by the mechanism of a large plane flying into the building.
You’ll find that real demolition work is done on that principle, actually: you don’t “blow the building up”, you use the weight of the building to do most of the demolition for you.
You say National can’t be trusted for various reasons (who knows you may even be right)
Labour can’t be trusted to run the country for various reasons and they can’t even run their own party
The Greens just say any old thing and hope no one checks (bit like National and Labour I suppose)
So what options are there for people to vote for or is it a case of the lesser of two (three) evils?
The Greens just say any old thing and hope no one checks (bit like National and Labour I suppose)
Well, if you had actually bothered to check you would have found that the Green Party had been consistent with what’s on their webpage and they back up what they say. This is unlike, say, National.
I’m not saying they don’t stay on message, I’m saying theres a lot of bullcrap in the message and nobody (especially the media) seems keen on calling them on it.
You seriously think similar pieces couldn’t be written about national party graphics? Obviously not by DPF, but really?
The only way to not vote for the ‘least worst party’ is to vote for yourself. Otherwise, everyone is making a compromise decision, and that means ‘least worse’.
“You seriously think similar pieces couldn’t be written about national party graphics?”
Well no thats why I said at the start: “You say National can’t be trusted for various reasons (who knows you may even be right)”
“Otherwise, everyone is making a compromise decision, and that means ‘least worse’.
– I dunno, just doesn’t seem the best way to get things done, how you could change it though is beyond me…
its well and truly beyond you c73!
Adding to the fog of war
Nactional can not be trusted they continually lie!
Stick to you your cup of tea and leave it at that!
Any party leader who forgets he’s got a million dollars or so in a off shore bank account shouldn’t be allowed within kilometres of the levers of power.
It’s National by default.
Actually, I’m more concerned with people who forget the shares that they have despite the fact that they’re professional traders and will be looking at those shares and what the price is doing on a day to day basis.
When you’re worth 50+ million, what a few shares, easy to forget about, especially Tranz Rail ones, toilet paper had more value than those shares.
David Shearer though, very suspicious.
How can the chap from the UN forget he has a million dollars lying around in a offshore bank account, what’s he hiding?, any reporter worth their salt would be all over this.
“Yeah, especially when you’re also trying to sell them to a business in Texas via your government contacts for more than you bought them for.”
Yeah, and in case anyone (BM) has forgotten, Key’s dishonesty in this instance went WAAAAY beyond just lying 2 or 3 times directly into the camera and changing his story several times as it became obvious that the journo had more info than he first thought.
No the real sin here was that repeatedly Key was using parliament to ask questions designed to procure financial information about the company for his won personal use.
“But since Shearer won’t tell any one, all we can do is make shit up.
FIFY
“Seen a few numbers thrown about.”
Yeah I’ve seen Slater make a few up, and then BM says he “read it somewhere”, and then he increases it by 50%, and then a few other nutjobs repeat it around the blogs, and then Slater says he “heard somewhere” that it was twice as much, and then BM says he heard that too etc etc.
If it’s just speculation, $50 million is a more prumstrial number. Do you have any idea how many shares Cunliffe has in Monsanto and Petrobras? Maybe we could speculate that Norman Russell has a few million in Rio Tinto? Be asprishnul and ambishush, don’t stop with Shearer.
Sick buckets at the ready for a war criminal’s perverted feminism….
Learn to Speak Up
by CONDOLEEZZA RICE • April 1, 2013
There have been many times in my career when I was the only woman in the room; if I didn’t speak up, it was often noticed. I found speaking up took practice, but over time it became an important source of growth in my career.
One moment occurred during my freshman year of college. I was 16 years old and taking my first government class. Midway through the lecture, the professor introduced a bizarre theory as if it was a matter of course: Black people are born with lower IQs than white people. Everyone – including the black students – just sat there, accepting his theory as fact. Meanwhile, I was a 16-year-old black woman in college who spoke two languages and could play Beethoven and Bach on the piano. I was stunned, not only by this absurd statement, but by the lack of reaction from the other students. So I raised my hand.
The professor was stunned that I chose to speak up, and seemed even more amazed when I showed up the next day to argue the point. After that day, he realized his mistake and attempted to befriend me. I went on to excel in the course, despite the obstacles. I also learned a valuable lesson: If you find something uncomfortable or wrong, speak up. If you don’t challenge people, you aren’t doing your job.
In 1984, another situation arose that challenged me to speak up once again. I attended a seminar at Stanford featuring the then-National Security Advisor, who spoke on a commission I felt very strongly about. His mealy-mouthed answers caused my blood pressure to rise; yet no one pressed him for further information. So I raised my hand and shared my perspective. He seemed surprised, yet also impressed. Later he approached me and we talked. He noted my willingness to speak up and praised my thought process. That moment led to a life-long relationship, with him acting as an early mentor.
As my career evolved, so did my desire and need to speak up. Early on in my role as the National Security Advisor, I often had the opportunity to present options, but rarely did I ever voice a strong opinion in front of the President.
One afternoon, I found myself in a heated debate over President Bush giving a speech on the situation in the Middle East. It was a violent time, and there was concern that the President’s speech would only exacerbate the situation. I knew the President wanted to give the speech, so I decided to speak up. I said, “Mr. President, sometimes the only person who can make an impact is the President of the United States. You have to do this.” I waited for his response, nervous that I had overstepped. Instead, he smiled and agreed. He gave the speech and it was a rousing success.
It would be easy to say I have always spoken up at the right times….
I met a Chemistry Professor from the university she’d been in charge of (Stanford?). He considered her extremely mediocre intellectually and said her main achievement was to make university administration meetings confidential. He’d withdrawn from a committee rather than sign a confidentiality agreement, so she certainly didn’t think speaking up was an admirable quality in her subordinates.
I thought the dateline for this item was significant, but it appears that it really was written, in a tone of high seriousness, by Condoleezza Rice herself.
As well as the intellectual mediocrity you mention, it is clear she also lacks a sense of irony.
Prof Savage said: “It is striking that we have been able to discern a distinctive elite, whose sheer economic advantage sets it apart from other classes.
“At the opposite extreme, we have discerned the existence of a sizeable group – 15% of the population – which is marked by the lack of any significant amount of economic, cultural or social capital.
“The recognition of the existence of this group, along with the elite, is a powerful reminder that our conventional approaches to class have hindered our recognition of these two extremes, which occupy a very distinctive place in British society.”
It seems rather disturbing that the professor seems surprised that the rich exist and that they have advantages over everyone else.
Try taking the test on bbcnews.com! Simply by making one addition on a second pass, I seemed to jump from ‘traditional working class’ to ‘established middle class’ in no time at all. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973
Still, there have been people that tell me I’m a round peg in a square’s hole :p
And there was me thinking you had no class at all 😆
Elite – the most privileged group in the UK, distinct from the other six classes through its wealth. This group has the highest levels of all three capitals
Established middle class – the second wealthiest, scoring highly on all three capitals. The largest and most gregarious group, scoring second highest for cultural capital
Technical middle class – a small, distinctive new class group which is prosperous but scores low for social and cultural capital. Distinguished by its social isolation and cultural apathy
New affluent workers – a young class group which is socially and culturally active, with middling levels of economic capital
Traditional working class – scores low on all forms of capital, but is not completely deprived. Its members have reasonably high house values, explained by this group having the oldest average age at 66
Emergent service workers – a new, young, urban group which is relatively poor but has high social and cultural capital
Precariat, or precarious proletariat – the poorest, most deprived class, scoring low for social and cultural capital
Thanks for the link. Interesting survey. I actually don’t think the Prof was surprised that this group exists. More that he hadn’t expected it would show up so clearly in a major survey. He indicates it’s something that social scientists knew, but haven’t had substantial enough evidence to really go with it. He says:
“The recognition of the existence of this group, along with the elite, is a powerful reminder that our conventional approaches to class have hindered our recognition of these two extremes, which occupy a very distinctive place in British society.”
I guess it indicates more that long held major paradigms are hard to shift in social sciences, without substantial, sound research-based evidence.
It also give’s significant reinforcement of the term “precariat” which is getting increasing currency in left wing politics.
The categories they identify at the extremes are the most significant and useful. There’s been various attempts to categorise classes showing more gradations than the Marxist working vs capitalist classes, taking into account social status, cultural capital etc – there’s so many relevant factors it’s always difficult to pin down clear class bands.
“It also give’s significant reinforcement of the term “precariat” which is getting increasing currency in left wing politics”.
And especially so in countries whose gubbamints are still wedded to the neo-liberal dogma.
Progressive taxation is regularly attacked in the media. Higher tax rates restrains the richest – well if they didn’t pay lobbyists to create loopholes.
There is to be a law change in the air concerning ‘incitement to commit suicide’. I wonder if it is aimed at people who help others with euthanasia. I am hoping that the politicians will actually pass a law that sets out procedures to facilitate this in an organised and legal way that respects the wishes of the person and protects them against pressure from others.
Any laws passed that bear on euthanasia should be directed to making this a human and humane process carried out effectively by members of the family who can face the decision to die and last ceremony. The last thing that should happen is for law makers, medical or bureaucratic personnel to become arbiters of people’s lives so they are forced to exist beyond their wishes.
Sir Peter comments that he is particularly concerned by the trend for the complex nature of science to be ignored or misunderstood in societal debates, leading to the argument that you can find a scientist to support any given position. This, he says, totally misinterprets the way that scientific consensus is achieved and can engender serious mistrust in the scientific enterprise. Society will be better served when science is used appropriately
@PB ….. it doesn’t surprise me. I suspect Key, in all his arrogance, appointed Gluckman because he thought he could be a useful ally rather than because of his acumen.
Society uses science; good science simple ways to understand how to act in concert to produce the best outcome. Take roading science, where the simple practice of all on the left (or right) makes it possible to quickly get to where you need to be. As Einstein pointed out, keep it simple but no simpler. The problem with Gluckman take on matters is its a generalization, good public science requires that the problem being discuss is referenced, then understanding of the
problem is displayed, then and only then should we accord the speaker with any integrity, if they then do not allow themselves a forum to be question in, or respond in put downs and other poor debating tactics. Gluckman is merely a talking head for Key to see being scientific minded.
Now the media often reworks, highly manufactures the work of science in order to sell newspapers, this is entirely different from the need of society for simple science that helps us act in concert to achieve results that we value. i.e. Media sluts. Science isn’t found in the media much, its found in legislation, and its noted Gluckman has little to say about legislative ends of science.
like for example, have too few mine inspectors, when you don’t measure you can’t avoid, a simple scientific practice that any chief scientist should be aware of. But you see the Human Rights Commission deals with Human rights practices of government, so you’d think that the chief science advisor would also deal to the practice of public science that legislation creates, or ministers ignore.
Like Climate change predicting globally more flash flooding, more droughts, and so when they appear, ADVISING Joyce not to make a dick of himself by arguing against climate change and
its effects on our economy, our diary output, our water use, our clean green branding.
She’s gotta keep all those private prison stats up after all! It’ll be justification for another one coming to an area near you. Perhaps there’ll be a smelter site ripe for conversion before too long. Shove a few partitions and a roof on those pot lines, and Bob’s your uncle.
Ticks all the boxes – it’s a win-win situation – regional development, tough on crime, etc. etc
(I am thinking NAct type strategic planning)
And this is why we will see our power bills rise after the Mighty River sale:
Mighty River Power’s directors are getting hefty increases in fees ahead of the company’s float, State Owned Enterprises Minister Tony Ryall has announced.
The Government announced that the annual fees for directors would increase by 73 per cent to $85,000 a year.
Chairwoman Joan Withers will see her fees increase by more than 50 per cent, to $150,000 a year.
Ryall said the move was to ”adjust the level of fees MRP directors are paid to bring them more into line with comparable listed companies”.
“Fees need to be at a level that will attract and retain directors who have the required governance skills to operate effectively in a listed company environment,” Ryall said.
As well as the pay increase, the Government will allow the company an $85,000 pool ”for committee work” to be distributed by the board.
Parasites go on a feeding frenzy for some unknown reason once ‘mum and dad’ take over. This is sick and unjustified but I’m sure the directors will turn it down ha fucking ha.
meanwhile in other parts of the world the mining and exploitation companies continue to abuse and destroy indigenous peoples and their lives – our situation here is interconnected with all struggles especially underreported ones.
The Shuar stepped up their efforts to defend their culture and way of life against the impending threat of the 25,000 acre Mirador mining Project. They initiated a legal action alongside Environmental and human rights using Articles 71-73 on Rights of Nature in the Ecuadorian Constitution. In their case, the plaintiffs have asked the courts to stop the Mirador Project using the precautionary principle. If the project is allowed to go ahead, it would have a severe impact on the Shuar’s culture, their sacred sites, and the very water and land they depend on.
The Havasupai Nation, meanwhile, teamed up with three conservation groups to sue the U.S. Forest Service over its decision to allow Energy Fuels Resources, Inc. to begin operating a uranium mine near Grand Canyon National Park without initiating or completing formal tribal consultations and without updating an outdated 1986 federal environmental review. The Canyon Mine threatens cultural values, wildlife and endangered species and increases the risk of pollution and depletion of groundwater feeding springs and wells in and around the Grand Canyon.
Traditional owners in Arnhem Land, Australia, issued a petition to Darwin and Canberra calling on the Northern Territory and Federal governments not to allow their country to be fracked. More than 80 per cent of the Northern Territory is now under application for the unconventional oil and gas exploration, including most of Arnhem Land. As a public demonstration, Traditional owners also burnt a letter from Paltar Petroleum who was responding to their objections. As they burnt the document the men called out in unison: “Paltar this is what you wrote to us, and we say no!”
I urge everyone interested to go to Intercontinental Cry and read further.
Minister for Work and Pensions Iain Duncan Smith, one of the many millionaires in the UK Cabinet, has provoked outrage by saying he could live on £53 a week benefits.
It reminds one of the story about Tony Blair when on the speaking circuit, going into his bank and asking if he could have the amount he could withdraw from the bank’s ATMs increased.
“Let’s see,” said the cashier, “Do you earn more than £25,000?”
“It depends,” replied Tony. “Some days I do, some days I don’t.”
The British man called Mick Philpott with his wife and his drug-mate has been tried for setting fire to his house where his children were.
The plan was for Philpott to rescue his children and for Willis (a previous lover who had left him) to be prosecuted for arson, the court heard. But it went horribly wrong when the blaze took hold fast. The adults escaped the house but the six children died as they slept. (We hope.)
But in 1978 –
Philpott launched a savage attack on 17-year-old Kim Hill – before turning the knife on her mother.
He was convicted of attempted murder and GBH with intent and jailed for seven years.
Jurors in Philpott’s latest trial were not told about his previous conviction after judge Mrs Justice Thirlwall refused to allow the shocking incident to be used in evidence
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4870695/Revealed-Mick-Philpott-stabbed-ex-girlfriend.html#ixzz2PRuHSSuf
* He has been in trouble for vicious attacks – these went back to 1978.
* He was a 21 year old soldier at that time.
* Some years later he pinned another girlfriend down and held a knife at her throat.
* Now in his mature age he, and his mates, set fire to his house and six of his children died as a
result.
* If such a person was kept in jail for his whole life from the first attacks that showed a
thoroughly dangerous and degenerate man who was unlikely to be habilitated, others
wouldn’t have had to go through hell because of him.
* He wouldn’t be able to breed a family of 17 children who would have a screwed up life as a
result of their parents being bad role models.
* He sounds as if he has the mindset of Wilson of Blenheim, an ugly and aggressive man
about to be released after all sorts of appeals.
And some are using the case to hit welfare – ‘Anyone convicted of any welfare fraud should receive a lifetime ban on ..’ It is obvious that there should be shorter sentences for welfare fraud, and longer ones for being a vicious, violent, abusive person who is a danger to society.
And lastly when trying these people, the law makes certain they get a ‘fair trial’ by not revealing that they are degenerate criminals to the jury. No mention of any past wrongdoing is told to them. They should be told at the end of the trial so that they have the whole picture of the person they are deciding on.
I felt great saddness when I saw the photo of the six children who died. It has been reported that Philpott tried to chat up a police woman and he was joking/laughing when down at the police station just after the fire.
To be charged with manslaughter and not murder is not right either.
I know that there are thousands on the East half of Washington DC who do seem to live like that. Not sure about the snow-coffee though. Sometimes information like that comes out of North Korea but the camera doesn’t lie – does it?
Interesting thanks chris73
A guy called Alun Hill did it as a joke, he admits he does not speak Korean, then it got picked up by some online news crew who mistakenly ran with it thinking it legit
as spoof it has some great lines despite the daily struggle of the reality the pictures expose
Kind of says it all really and of course South Korea has some big friends they can call on, not sure China would think its worth going to war over North Korea, in fact they’re probably hoping the USA and South Korea does deal to them and take them over, it’d mean more stability in the region which would = bigger profits and they wouldn’t have to prop up North Korea…
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04042013/#comment-614007
One Tāne Huna said
“The adults would like to be able to have a sensible discussion of US foreign policy, which is pretty much a terrorism factory so far as I can tell, but every time anyone raises it we have to listen to the dimwit chorus insisting we watch this video.”
complete horsepuckey
These days it is a rare day when 911 issues, specifically the physical events of the day, get mentioned on The Standard.
Today was an obvious tease, poking a sleeping bear with a stick so to speak, due to the events in Russia, (still hasn’t collapsed btw)
It is not a ‘conspiracy theory’ to reference 911 when discussing the Neo-Imperial aspirations of the USA into the Middle East and other Asian regions and how the events of that day were used as justification for the slaughter of hundreds and thousands of people and the instigation of a global war against largely manufactured enemies.
It is not a ‘conspiracy theory’ to reference 911 when discussing the acquisition by the DHS for hundreds of armoured personal carriers or thousands of drones or the millions of rounds of ammunition or the establishment of the TSA or the removal of an ever growing list of civil liberties throughout America. All of which are a direct and very real result of the events of September 11 2001.
It is not a ‘conspiracy theory’ to reference 911 when discussing how all US foreign policy from that day forth has been based on a litany of misinformation and hyperbole, most of which over the past decade has been proven false. Facts that to this day are openly ignored by the Administration itself.
It is a ‘conspiracy theory’ to blather on about a very complex set of engineering calculations without being able to write them down, let alone do the Maths.
It is a ‘conspiracy theory’ when it requires thousands of individuals to be in on it.
Two women were rescued from being burned alive earlier this week in Papua New Guinea.
An angry mob accused the two elderly women of being sorcerers who killed an 8-year-old girl in the city of Mount Hagen.
Those two were lucky.
Mount Hagen is the same city where a 20-year-old mother actually was burned at the stake last week.
And before we get too uppity about ourselves in the West:
Is today’s war on women in the western world so different from these events in Papua New Guinea, or the witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries?
For example: we learned recently that the Irish government has admitted that, for more than seven decades, it was in collusion with the so-called Magdalene laundries operated by religious congregations that kept generations of women and girls (as young as 12) in virtual enslavement.
Other instances of the ongoing war on women: Republican legislators in Iowa think it’s a good idea to put rape victims in jail. In Virginia, women are being forced to have ultrasounds before they can have an abortion. The state’s Republican governor, Bob McDonnell, has signed into law Virginia’s mandatory ultrasound law, making the state the eighth to require such a procedure.
As I see it, misogyny continues to be alive and well worldwide.
Yeah, we’ve got a long way to go before we call ourselves civilised.
I wonder how strong the fundamentalist churches are in Papua New Guinea. I don’t know whether fundamentalist and evangelising means the same outcome. The evangelising spirit in some churches alone, prompts a quick response to previously little known areas that are probably still versed in aminism or whatever has been traditional. Mix the ultimate truths of such christianity (with a small c) and the traditional responses to wrong-doing and that might be an explanation for this savage witch-hunting.
Seen this?
____________________________________________________________________________
Shut The Smelter!
LET THE “TOO BIG TO FAIL” SMELTER FAIL
“Too big to fail” was the mantra of the robber banks and other transnational financial sharks during the Global Financial Crisis, which remains ongoing. This left the victims to pay for the costs of the crime, while the corporate criminals walked away scotfree and kept their loot. The people of Cyprus are the latest to experience firsthand just how this works.
In this country, Rio Tinto’s Bluff smelter was decades ahead of the fashion. Every time that Rio Tinto feels that its charmed existence in New Zealand is going to become less cushy, it threatens to pull the plug, close the smelter and walk away. It does so in the knowledge that it has always been deemed “too big to fail” by the succession of Governments, both National and Labour, that it has effortlessly outmanoeuvred for more than 40 years. This time it is trying it on as a tactic to try to pressure Meridian over its power price contract, on which the ink is barely dry and which only took effect in January.
Campaign Against Foreign Control of Aotearoa (CAFCA) calls Rio Tinto’s bluff (pun intended). Stop crying wolf, stop using your New Zealand workers as disposable pawns in your cynical game, stop holding Southland and the country to ransom. Go ahead and close the smelter and bugger off. See if we care, the country will be much better off without you. The smelter is the country’s single biggest user of electricity, consuming one sixth of the total, 24/7 for more than 40 years. It pays a top secret super cheap price that is not available for any other user and all it does is export electricity from NZ in the form of alumina, while being subsidised by all other electricity users. The smelter is the textbook example of corporate welfare in New Zealand. It is the biggest bludger in the country.
How ironic that Rio Tinto has rejected the Government’s offer of a short term subsidy. It wants a long term one, preferably indefinitely. Presumably, this is in addition to the massive taxpayer subsidy it has been receiving continuously for more than 40 years, in the form of the Manapouri power station built with public money for its exclusive use (and let’s never forget that men died building that); and the cheapest and most secret power price rate in the country bar none. Not good enough apparently, it still wants more.
Rio Tinto won the 2011 Roger Award for the Worst Transnational Corporation Operating In Aotearoa/New Zealand (and was runner up in both 2009 and 08). It was nominated for lobbying two Governments “over several years to secure excessive allocations of free emissions units under the NZ Emissions Trading Scheme”.
The Roger Award judges agreed, concluding: “It appears therefore, that the New Zealand taxpayer is subsidising a transnational corporate rort of the emissions trading scheme… The significance of this stance cannot be underestimated; a major transnational player within New Zealand materially benefits from its non-compliance with a strategy to reduce global climate change and its ecological effects”.
The Judges’ Report concludes that the company has a 50 year history of “suborning, blackmailing and conning successive New Zealand governments into paying massive subsidies on the smelter’s electricity; dodging tax, and running a brilliantly effective PR machine to present a friendly, socially responsible and thoroughly greenwashed face to the media and the public. Its milking of the Emissions Trading Scheme is entirely in character”.
The extremely detailed Financial Analysis reveals that the smelter’s claimed benefits to NZ, namely annual export earnings of “around $1 billion” are, in fact, overstated by four fifths.
In short, it is a liability to New Zealand, not an asset.
What about the people who work for the smelter, directly or indirectly? Indisputably, the smelter closing would have a negative impact on Invercargill and Southland. But let’s keep a sense of proportion – in disaster terms it doesn’t compete with Christchurch having lost 185 lives, 50,000 jobs, and sustained $30 billion worth of damage in a matter of seconds on February 22, 2011. If Christchurch can get back in the saddle after that, Invercargill should be able to handle the smelter closure and its attendant job losses. As a plus, the city will be able to shake off its unhealthily dependent situation as a company town with its local government at the beck and call of this transnational bludger.
The tobacco industry used to employ a lot of people here, but that was deemed to be no longer in the public interest. Lacing lollywater with booze and selling it to kids supports a lot of jobs too but there’s plenty of public demand to get rid of that particular industry as well. The P industry provides an income for thousands of people too, but we don’t hear any demand for that insidious trade to be kept going to keep them in a job. History is full of examples of horrible industries that kept people in jobs (such as the slave trade) but which were banned and/or abolished for the greater good.
This smelter constitutes a crime against the people of New Zealand and has done for its entire existence.
In the national interest, it must be closed and the sooner the better.
It would be a great bonus to have 15% of the country’s electricity suddenly available and no longer committed to one smelter. There would no excuse for the moneygrabbing power companies not to cut their prices (we’ve been falsely promised lower power prices since the “electricity reforms” of the 1990s). And, we’re told, it would drive down Meridian’s attractiveness to would be buyers as part of the Government’s assets sale process. How ironic that the selfishness and ruthlessness of one transnational corporation could bugger up the plans to flog off more of our public assets to transnational corporations.
Thanks for that, Penny. Murray Horton is one of this country’s most engaging and entertaining speakers. He always has lots of interesting things to say, and he says them forthrightly and stylishly. Yet he has never appeared on National Radio’s The Panel.
It can’t be because he is from Christchurch; after all, his fellow Christchurch identity Barry Corbett seems to be on the programme half a dozen times a year at least.
A naming project is starting up to expose government officials, businesses, individuals and families using British Virgin Islands and other offshore tax havens to avoid tax in their own countries. With 200 gigabytes of data from the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, a fair few people will be keeping their accountants quite busy right now.
The naming project may be extremely damaging for confidence among the world’s wealthiest people, no longer certain that the size of their fortunes remains hidden from governments and from their neighbours.
ICIJ’s collaborating journalists from 46 countries constituted one of the largest groups ever to have worked together on a data project. Marina Walker Guevara, Michael Hudson, Nicky Hager and Stefan Candea worked from the US, New Zealand and Romania. Others who contributed across the world included Mar Cabra, Kimberley Porteous, Frederic Zalac, Alex Shprintsen, Prangtip Daorueng, Roel Landingin, Francois Pilet, Emilia Díaz-Struck, Roman Shleynov, Harry Karanikas, Sebastian Mondial and Emily Menkes.
there’s a bit of added interest in the list of journalists.
Graham Adams writes about the $55m media fund — When Patrick Gower was asked by Mike Hosking last week what he would say to the many Newstalk ZB callers who allege the Labour government bribed media with $55 million of taxpayers’ money via the Public Interest Journalism Fund — and ...
Note: this blog post has been put together over the course of the week I followed the happenings at the conference virtually. Should recordings of the Great Debates and possibly Union Symposia mentioned below, be released sometime after the conference ends, I'll include links to the ones I participated in. ...
The following was my submission made on the “Fast Track Approvals Bill”. This potential law will give three Ministers unchecked powers, un-paralled since the days of Robert Muldoon’s “Think Big” projects.The submission is written a bit tongue-in-cheek. But it’s irreverent because the FTAB is in itself not worthy of respect. ...
One Could Reduce Child Poverty At No Fiscal CostFollowing the Richardson/Shipley 1990 ‘redesign of the welfare state’ – which eliminated the universal Family Benefit and doubled the rate of child poverty – various income supplements for families have been added, the best known being ‘Working for Families’, introduced in 2005. ...
Buzz from the Beehive A few days ago, Point of Order suggested the media must be musing “on why Melissa is mute”. Our article reported that people working in the beleaguered media industry have cause to yearn for a minister as busy as Melissa Lee’s ministerial colleagues and we drew ...
1. What was The Curse of Jim Bolger?a. Winston Peters b. Soon after shaking his hand, world leaders would mysteriously lose office or shuffle off this mortal coilc. Could never shake off the Mother of All Budgetsd. Dandruff2. True or false? The Chairman of a Kiwi export business has asked the ...
Jack Vowles writes – New Zealand is said to be suffering from ‘serious populist discontent’. An IPSOS MORI survey has reported that we have an increasing preference for strong leaders, think that the economy is rigged toward the rich and powerful, and political elites are ignoring ‘hard-working people’. ...
Chris Trotter writes – MELISSA LEE should be deprived of her ministerial warrant. Her handling – or non-handling – of the crisis engulfing the New Zealand news media has been woeful. The fate of New Zealand’s two linear television networks, a question which the Minister of Broadcasting, Communications ...
TL;DR: The podcast above features co-hosts and , along with regular guests Robert Patman on Gaza and AUKUS II, and on climate change.The six things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the ...
Policymakers rarely wish to make plain or visible their desire to dismantle environmental policy, least of all to the young. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s the top five news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, and a discussion above between Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent ...
I like to keep an eye on what’s happening in places like the UK, the US, and over the ditch with our good mates the Aussies. Let’s call them AUKUS, for want of a better collective term. More on that in a bit.It used to be, not long ago, that ...
TL;DR: The global economy will be one fifth smaller than it would have otherwise been in 2050 as a result of climate damage, according to a new study by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research (PIK) and published in the journal Nature. (See more detail and analysis below, and ...
New Zealand is said to be suffering from ‘serious populist discontent’. An IPSOS MORI survey has reported that we have an increasing preference for strong leaders, think that the economy is rigged toward the rich and powerful, and political elites are ignoring ‘hard-working people’. The data is from February this ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters is understood to be planning a major speech within the next fortnight to clear up the confusion over whether or not New Zealand might join the AUKUS submarine project. So far, there have been conflicting signals from the Government. RNZ reported the Prime Minister yesterday in ...
Life throws curveballs, and sometimes, those curveballs necessitate wiping your iPhone clean and starting anew. Whether you’re facing persistent software glitches, preparing to sell your device, or simply wanting a fresh start, knowing how to factory reset iPhone without a computer is a valuable skill. While using a computer with ...
Gone are the days when communication was limited to landline phones and physical proximity. Today, computers have become powerful tools for connecting with people across the globe through voice and video calls. But with a plethora of applications and methods available, how to call someone on a computer might seem ...
Open access notables Glacial isostatic adjustment reduces past and future Arctic subsea permafrost, Creel et al., Nature Communications:Sea-level rise submerges terrestrial permafrost in the Arctic, turning it into subsea permafrost. Subsea permafrost underlies ~ 1.8 million km2 of Arctic continental shelf, with thicknesses in places exceeding 700 m. Sea-level variations over glacial-interglacial cycles control ...
The operating system (OS) is the heart and soul of a computer, orchestrating every action and interaction between hardware and software. But have you ever wondered where on a computer is the operating system generally stored? The answer lies in the intricate dance between hardware and software components, particularly within ...
Laptops have become essential tools for work, entertainment, and communication, offering portability and functionality. However, with rising energy costs and growing environmental concerns, understanding a laptop’s power consumption is more important than ever. So, how many watts does a laptop use? The answer, unfortunately, isn’t straightforward. It depends on several ...
Screen recording has become an essential tool for various purposes, such as creating tutorials, capturing gameplay footage, recording online meetings, or sharing information with others. Fortunately, Dell laptops offer several built-in and external options for screen recording, catering to different needs and preferences. This guide will explore various methods on ...
A cracked or damaged laptop screen can be a frustrating experience, impacting productivity and enjoyment. Fortunately, laptop screen repair is a common service offered by various repair shops and technicians. However, the cost of fixing a laptop screen can vary significantly depending on several factors. This article delves into the ...
Gaming laptops represent a significant investment for passionate gamers, offering portability and powerful performance for immersive gaming experiences. However, a common concern among potential buyers is their lifespan. Unlike desktop PCs, which allow for easier component upgrades, gaming laptops have inherent limitations due to their compact and integrated design. This ...
The annual inventory report of New Zealand's greenhouse gas emissions has been released, showing that gross emissions have dropped for the third year in a row, to 78.4 million tons: All-told gross emissions have decreased by over 6 million tons since the Zero Carbon Act was passed in 2019. ...
Experiencing a locked computer can be frustrating, especially when you need access to your files and applications urgently. The methods to unlock your computer will vary depending on the specific situation and the type of lock you encounter. This guide will explore various scenarios and provide step-by-step instructions on how ...
While the world has largely transitioned to digital communication, faxing still holds relevance in certain industries and situations. Fortunately, gone are the days of bulky fax machines and dedicated phone lines. Today, you can easily send and receive faxes directly from your computer, offering a convenient and efficient way to ...
In our increasingly digital world, home computers have become essential tools for work, communication, entertainment, and more. However, this increased reliance on technology also exposes us to various cyber threats. Understanding these threats and taking proactive steps to protect your home computer is crucial for safeguarding your personal information, finances, ...
In the ever-evolving world of technology, server-based computing has emerged as a cornerstone of modern digital infrastructure. This article delves into the concept of server-based computing, exploring its various forms, benefits, challenges, and its impact on the way we work and interact with technology. Understanding Server-Based Computing: At its core, ...
The absolute brass neck of this guy.We want more medical doctors, not more spin doctors, Luxon was saying a couple of weeks ago, and now we’re told the guy has seven salaried adults on TikTok duty. Sorry, doing social media. The absolute brass neck of it. The irony that the ...
Buzz from the Beehive Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones relishes spatting and eagerly takes issue with environmentalists who criticise his enthusiasm for resource development. He relishes helping the fishing industry too. And so today, while the media are making much of the latest culling in the public service to ...
Having written, taught and worked for the US government on issues involving unconventional warfare and terrorism for 30-odd years, two things irritate me the most when the subject is discussed in public. The first is the Johnny-come-lately academics-turned-media commentators who … Continue reading → ...
Eric Crampton writes – Kainga Ora is the government’s house building agency. It’s been building a lot of social housing. Kainga Ora has its own (but independent) consenting authority, Consentium. It’s a neat idea. Rather than have to deal with building consents across each different territorial authority, Kainga Ora ...
Muriel Newman writes – The Coalition Government says it is moving with speed to deliver campaign promises and reverse the damage done by Labour. One of their key commitments is to “defend the principle that New Zealanders are equal before the law.” To achieve this, they have pledged they “will not advance ...
Chris Trotter writes – The absence of anything resembling a fightback from the public servants currently losing their jobs is interesting. State-sector workers’ collective fatalism in the face of Coalition cutbacks indicates a surprisingly broad acceptance of impermanence in the workplace. Fifty years ago, lay-offs in the thousands ...
Mariupol, on the Azov Sea coast, was one of the first cities to suffer almost complete destruction after the start of the Ukraine War started in late February 2022. We remember the scenes of absolute destruction of the houses and city structures. The deaths of innocent civilians – many of ...
Lindsay Mitchell writes – Ten years ago, I wrote the following in a Listener column: Every year around one in five new-born babies will be reliant on their caregivers benefit by Christmas. This pattern has persisted from at least 1993. For Maori the number jumps to over one in three. ...
Climate change is expected to generate more and more extreme events, delivering a sort of structural shock to inflation that central banks will have to react to as if they were short-term cyclical issues. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāMy pick of the six newsey things to know from Aotearoa’s ...
It’s a simple deal. We pay taxes in order to finance the social services we want and need. The carnage now occurring across the public sector though, is breaking that contract. Over 3,000 jobs have been lost so far. Many are in crucial areas like Education where the impact of ...
Hi,A friend had their 40th over the weekend and decided to theme it after Curb Your Enthusiasm fashion icon Susie Greene. Captured in my tiny kitchen before I left the house, I ending up evoking a mix of old lesbian and Hillary Clinton — both unintentional.Me vs Hillary ClintonIf you’re ...
This is a re-post from Andrew Dessler at the Climate Brink blogIn 2023, the Earth reached temperature levels unprecedented in modern times. Given that, it’s reasonable to ask: What’s going on? There’s been lots of discussions by scientists about whether this is just the normal progression of global warming or if something ...
The schools are on holiday and the sun is shining in the seaside village and all day long I have been seeing bunches of bikes; Mums, Dads, teens and toddlers chattering, laughing, happy, having a bloody great time together. Cheers, AT, for the bits of lane you’ve added lately around the ...
Today in our National-led authoritarian nightmare: Shane Jones thinks Ministers should be above the law: New Zealand First MP Shane Jones is accusing the Waitangi Tribunal of over-stepping its mandate by subpoenaing a minister for its urgent hearing on the Oranga Tamariki claim. The tribunal is looking into the ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Politicians across the political spectrum are implicated in the New Zealand media’s failing health. Either through neglect or incompetent interventions, successive governments have failed to regulate, foster, and allow a healthy Fourth Estate that can adequately hold politicians and the powerful to account. ...
Citizen Science writes – Last week saw two significant developments in the debate over the treatment of trans-identifying children and young people – the release in Britain of the final report of Dr Hilary Cass’s review into gender healthcare, and here in New Zealand, the news that the ...
One night while sleeping in my bed I had a beautiful dreamThat all the people of the world got together on the same wavelengthAnd began helping one anotherNow in this dream, universal love was the theme of the dayPeace and understanding and it happened this wayAfter such an eventful day ...
This is a guest post by Oscar Simms who is a housing activist, volunteer for the Coalition for More Homes, and was the Labour Party candidate for Auckland Central at the last election. ...
Turning what Labour called the “holiday highway” into a four-lane expressway from Auckland to Whangarei could bring at least an economic benefit of nearly two billion a year for Northland each year. And it could help bring an end to poverty in one of New Zealand’s most deprived regions. The ...
Tonight’s six-stack includes: launching his substack with a bunch of his previous documentaries, including this 1992 interview with Dame Whina Cooper. and here crew give climate activists plenty to do, including this call to submit against the Fast Track Approvals bill. writes brilliantly here on his substack ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
You're in the mall when you hear it: some kind of popping sound in the distance, kids with fireworks, maybe. But then a moment of eerie stillness is followed by more of the fireworks sound and there’s also screaming and shrieking and now here come people running for their lives.Does ...
Karl du Fresne writes – There’s a crisis in the news media and the media are blaming it on everyone except themselves. Culpability is being deflected elsewhere – mainly to the hapless Minister of Communications, Melissa Lee, and the big social media platforms that are accused of hoovering ...
I don’t normally send out two newsletters in a day but I figured I’d say something about… the news. If two newsletters is a bit much then maybe just skip one, I don’t want to overload people. Alternatively if you’d be interested in sometimes receiving multiple, smaller updates from me, ...
Buzz from the Beehive David Seymour and Winston Peters today signalled that at least two ministers of the Crown might be in Wellington today. Seymour (as Associate Minister of Education) announced the removal of more red tape, this time to make it easier for new early learning services to be ...
Politicians across the political spectrum are implicated in the New Zealand media’s failing health. Either through neglect or incompetent interventions, successive governments have failed to regulate, foster, and allow a healthy Fourth Estate that can adequately hold politicians and the powerful to account. Our political system is suffering from the ...
David Farrar writes – The Broadcasting Standards Authority ruled: Comments by radio host Kate Hawkesby suggesting Māori and Pacific patients were being prioritised for surgery due to their ethnicity were misleading and discriminatory, the Broadcasting Standards Authority has found. It is a fact such patients are prioritised. ...
PRC and its proxies in Solomons have been preparing for these elections for a long time.A lot of money, effort and intelligence have gone into ensuring an outcome that won’t compromise Beijing’s plans. Cleo Paskall writes – On April 17th the Solomon Islands, a country of ...
Is speeding up the trip to and from Wellington airport by 12 minutes worth spending up more than $10 billion? Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The six news items that stood out to me in the last day to 8:26 am today are:The Lead: Transport Minister Simeon Brownannounced ...
You're a fraud, and you know itBut it's too good to throw it all awayAnyone would do the sameYou've got 'em goingAnd you're careful not to show itSometimes you even fool yourself a bitIt's like magicBut it's always been a smoke and mirrors gameAnyone would do the sameForty six billion ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections The June general election in Mexico could mark a turning point in ensuring that the country’s climate policies better reflect the desire of its citizens to address the climate crisis, with both leading presidential candidates expressing support for renewable energy. Mexico is the ...
2024, it feels, keeps presenting us with ever more challenges, ever more dismay.Do you give up yet? It seems to ask.No? How about this? Or this?How about this?When I say 2024 I really mean the state of humanity in 2024.Saturday night, we watched Civil War because that is one terrifying cliff we've ...
Buzz from the Beehive A pet project and governmental tunnel vision jump out from the latest batch of ministerial announcements. The government is keen to assure us of its concern for the wellbeing of our pets. It will be introducing pet bonds in a change to the Residential Tenancies Act ...
A recent report generated from a Growing Up in New Zealand (GUiNZ) survey of 1,224 rangatahi Māori aged 11-12 found: Cultural connectedness was associated with fewer depression symptoms, anxiety symptoms and better quality of life. That sounds cut and dry. But further into the report the following appears: Cultural connectedness is ...
David Farrar writes – The Herald reports: From the gory details of job-cuts news, you’d think the public service was being eviscerated. While the media’s view of the cuts is incomplete, it’s also true that departments have been leaking the particulars faster than a Wellington ...
Remember the good old days, back when New Zealand had a PM who could think and speak calmly and intelligently in whole sentences without blustering? Even while Iran’s drones and missiles were still being launched, Helen Clark was live on TVNZ expertly summing up the latest crisis in the Middle ...
Costello did not pass on analysis of the benefits of the smokefree reforms to Cabinet, emphasising instead the extra tax revenues of repealing them. Photo: Hagen Hopkins, Getty Images TL;DR: The six news items that stood out to me at 7:26 am today are:The Lead: Casey Costello never passed on ...
True loveYou're the one I'm dreaming ofYour heart fits me like a gloveAnd I'm gonna be true blueBaby, I love youI’ve written about the job cuts in our news media last week. The impact on individuals, and the loss to Aotearoa of voices covering our news from different angles.That by ...
While commentators, including former Prime Minister Helen Clark, are noting a subtle shift in New Zealand’s foreign policy, which now places more emphasis on the United States, many have missed a key element of the shift. What National said before the election is not what the government is doing now. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
The Government’s newly announced review of methane emissions reduction targets hints at its desire to delay Aotearoa New Zealand’s urgent transition to a climate safe future, the Green Party said. ...
The Government must commit to the Maitai School building project for students with high and complex needs, to ensure disabled students from the top of the South Island have somewhere to learn. ...
Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey and his Government colleagues have made a meal of their mental health commitments, showing how flimsy their efforts to champion the issue truly are, says Labour Mental Health spokesperson Ingrid Leary. ...
Māori are yet to see anything from this Government except cuts, reversals and taking our people backwards, Māori Development spokesperson Willie Jackson said. ...
The Coalition Government’s refusal to commit to ongoing funding for social housing is seeing the sector pull back on developments and families watch their dreams of securing a home fade away, says Labour Housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty. ...
Changes to minimum wage and benefit indexation means many New Zealanders will get less this year, as the Government gives a big tax break to landlords instead. ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Government’s support for the revitalisation the sector. "New Zealand’s wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
The Government is making legislative changes to make it easier for new early learning services to be established, and for existing services to operate, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. The changes involve repealing the network approval provisions that apply when someone wants to establish a new early learning service, ...
Changes to the Resource Management Act will align consenting for coal mining to other forms of mining to reduce barriers that are holding back economic development, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The inconsistent treatment of coal mining compared with other extractive activities is burdensome red tape that fails to acknowledge ...
Trade, Agriculture and Forestry Minister Todd McClay has concluded productive discussions with ministerial counterparts in Beijing today, in support of the New Zealand-China trade and economic relationship. “My meeting with Commerce Minister Wang Wentao reaffirmed the complementary nature of the bilateral trade relationship, with our Free Trade Agreement at its ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today paid tribute to Singapore’s outgoing Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. Meeting in Singapore today immediately before Prime Minister Lee announced he was stepping down, Prime Minister Luxon warmly acknowledged his counterpart’s almost twenty years as leader, and the enduring legacy he has left for Singapore and South East ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. While in Singapore as part of his visit to South East Asia this week, Prime Minister Luxon also met with Singapore President Tharman Shanmugaratnam and will meet with Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has made further appointments to the Board of Antarctica New Zealand as part of a continued effort to ensure the Scott Base Redevelopment project is delivered in a cost-effective and efficient manner. The Minister has appointed Neville Harris as a new member of the Board. Mr ...
Finance Minister Nicola Willis will travel to the United States on Tuesday to attend a meeting of the Five Finance Ministers group, with counterparts from Australia, the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom. “I am looking forward to meeting with our Five Finance partners on how we can work ...
The coalition Government has today announced purrfect and pawsitive changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to give tenants with pets greater choice when looking for a rental property, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Pets are important members of many Kiwi families. It’s estimated that around 64 per cent of New ...
State Highway 1 (SH1) through Wellington City is heavily congested at peak times and while planning continues on the duplicate Mt Victoria Tunnel and Basin Reserve project, the Government has also asked NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) to consider and provide advice on a Long Tunnel option, Transport Minister Simeon Brown ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Foreign Minister Winston Peters have condemned Iran’s shocking and illegal strikes against Israel. “These attacks are a major challenge to peace and stability in a region already under enormous pressure," Mr Luxon says. "We are deeply concerned that miscalculation on any side could ...
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The Herald is now beginning to list the Prime Minister’s memory lapses. I think we should assist its reporters with a few others. Lord Ashcroft’s visit for starters.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10875266
Here’s their list Quote
Key’s memory lapses
* Forgot how many Tranz Rail shares he owned.
* Unsure if and when he was briefed by GCSB on Kim Dotcom.
* Forgot how he voted on drinking age.
* Could not recall whether he was for or against the 1981 Springbok Tour.
* Could not remember who was aboard mystery CIA jet parked at Wellington airport.
* Forgot he phoned future director of GCSB urging him to apply for the job.
Unquote
I doubt that it is a simply case of cronyism. Copyright was obviously at the center of the DotCom affair, and the copyright industry’s approach to “moral rights” should give one pause. Industry affiliates were involved in distributing file sharing software and promoted the sharing of copyrighted material. The RIAA then pushed for legislation against piracy which resulted in awards of up to 150,000 US dollars per track of digital audio. Ian Fletcher worked for the UK Intellectual Property Office for about three years.
The industry’s approach to “moral rights” involves ignoring ethical sharing of copyrighted works consistent with fair use, and the industry labels all sharing of copyrighted material as theft regardless of the innocence of such fair use. The term “intellectual property” is an oxymoron because intellectual works in society do not have the quality of exclusive possession essential to all property.
Copyright enforcement can be used as a cover for internet espionage. Microsoft spent considerable effort implementing DRM (digital rights management) into Windows Vista. The implementation of DRM and other security features into Vista caused so many technical problems that many users abandoned Vista and returned to Windows XP. Microsoft has long been suspected of collaborating with the NSA after an encryption key called _NSAKEY was discovered in Windows NT.
In which Mark Ames goes Hunteresque, on the occasion of Andrew Breitbart’s aniversary, with regard to claims that Breitbart was anything other than a carnival barker with a legacy of, well, ‘shit’ pretty much covers it:
https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/breitbart/0e8f1e346505f331287a2b46c86b21b35db47718/
Ta PB, marvellous.
Big steel framed highrise building (highest high rise over there) engulfed completely in flames in Grozny, Chechnya. Guess that one will collapse into the path of most resistance in freefall speed soon too. It happened after all three times on 9/11.
Silly travellerev!
To free fall symmetrically and straight downwards on to its own footprint, the building requires not just a one sided fire, it also needs to be unevenly hit from just one side by a jet plane!
Everyone knows this is how physics works!
So why do either of you think the building is of the same construction type as WTC?
Please respond with some substantiation of the claim that these buildings are of the same construction type as WTC. I’d really prefer not to have to conclude you really are bullshit artists.
Yes PB because somehow perfectly symmetrical failure of these buildings can be caused by highly assymetrical fires and structural damage.
BTW two quite different types of steel framed skyscrapers fell on 9/11, so it’s not just related to the Twin Towers design.
So no substantiation at all then? 🙁
Turn off all your senses buddy, you’re doing well without them.
I don’t consider my gut to be a sense organ, that’s why I asked for something verifiable.
You don’t consider your gut to be a sense organ? ***Guffaw*** Shit dude you better do a bit more research.
Nah, you’ve set your view in place. You believe that its quite possible that highly assymetrical damage to a structure can cause that structure to fail instantaneously in a highly symmetrical way.
And that it happened 3 times within 12 hours at the same location.
Shit, is there even a need for controlled demolitions work any more? Just set a random fire in a skyscraper, crash a jet into one side, and straight down she goes, safe and sound on to its own building footprint, barely touching anything else around.
So I ask for verification that these buildings are like the WTC, and in response; Strawman arguments.
Typical, but sad that you’d rather talk about anything else than the question I asked.
Why’s that? Mind made up is it?
Do.Not.Question.The.Truther.Narrative.
Feel free to prove me wrong by saying that yeah, building structure is relevant to the comparison, and that no you didn’t bother to check it out and that yes you’ll do better next time.
“So why do either of you think the building is of the same construction type as WTC?”
PB, even the 911 Commission didn’t bother with silly facts like how the buildings were constructed. Hell with WTC 1 & WTC 2 they decided 94 boxsteel columns, each 110 stories high did not even exist.
Forget for a minute about what happened on September 11 2001 and instead sit watch learn think on how they are constructed and how the visual proof of their construction completely contradicts all official explanations of the Towers’ demise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__gUjUv1vvw
So you got nothing either then freedom?
So far its 0:3 for the TruthSquad 🙁
PB but you are the one who believes that highly assymetrical damage to a building can cause that building to fail in a completely symmetrical way.
3x in 12 hours.
The same exact failure effect in two completely different building types, but where only one of which suffered damage from aviation fuel and airliners.
PB you’re the kind of person who says the sun can’t have come up because the correct paperwork wasn’t completed.
And this is relevant to my Question, how?
Fairly simple mate.
Tall buildings are not solid blocks of wood or corn-flake packs that topple over if you push them. They’re amazing strong in some ways, fragile in others and they behave counter to the intuition bred by observing small solid objects.
The WTC centre towers were steel truss construction, which is light and efficient, but has its , um, problems… I don’t know if the Grozny building is truss or girder construction. That would make a difference.
Buildings are designed to resist horizontal forces due to wind and earthquake, which can be quite substantial (for example, going through the sums on construction and engineering for buildings in Wellington, as an undergrad, I was quite surprised to discover that due to wind-generated lift, much structure is generally devoted to keeping a roof down rather than up.)
Moreover, an airliner, while somewhat heavy (but built as light as possible in order to fly) is quite fragile and certainly not designed to resist being flown into a building, so its structure crumples and is shredded immediately as it impacts. The real problem is all the burning aviation fuel.
Now, steel building usually have what is called intumescent foam protecting the structure. This is an insulation that swells up when heated, protecting the steel structure. Under “normal” fire conditions, it will do just that, but the explosion of a plane exploding can suddenly strip off the intumescent foam normally protecting the steel truss structure used in the WTC buildings. Burning aviation fuel then continues to burn, heating the steel which loses much of its structural strength well below its melting point.
The truss then catastrophically gives way, unable to support the floor. The weight of the whole building above that floor suddenly slams down on the floor below… and you can guess the rest. Rather than this being a path of “most resistance”, a vertical piledriver effect is inevitable and unstoppable.
The energy used to destroy the building is in fact not the initial impact, but all the gravitational potential energy devoted to lifting its entire mass into the sky in the first place when it was constructed.
That’s the mental model they proposed in the official report.
Of course we should also consider that the weight of those top floors was already being supported by the structure underneath, it was not new weight which came from nowhere.
Also – did you notice that big huge reinforced concrete floors didn’t slam downwards at all – a large amount of that mass somehow pulverised into dust and ejected out sideways from the collapsing building.
it was not new weight which came from nowhere.
Mass (weight) times velocity equals momentum. This is kinetic energy – a lot, a delivered in an instant.
Take a egg. You can gently rest the head of a hammer on the egg. Now drop the hammer on the egg.
Actually, the floors were not big huge reinforced slabs. They were comparatively light slabs pored over metal deck, supported, as I said, by a truss system.
This may help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wtc_floor_truss_system.png
Understood. I’ll buy the momentum theory IF the majority of the mass part of the equation was not lost as pulverised material as the fall took place.
Because if a lot of mass was lost during the free fall (ejected out the sides of the building) the strongest floors in the bottom half of the building, should have easily survived.
Show me your calculations. Show me how they debunk NIST. What’s that? You can’t? Then what the fuck are you wasting everyone’s time with?
You’ve got nothing emotional invested in this, right? I mean, please don’t use the reply button if you think it’s a waste of time.
As for some of the problems with the NIST analyses, AE911 describes one of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGMvnwjUizY
because new sets of calculations will somehow retroactively change the inconsistencies?
It doesn’t Matter if something is pulverized it still has the same mass and momentum drop a feather or rock in still air they will land at the same time gravity is constant.
yes and even Commander David Scott proved gravity is a constant in the Universe we have thus experienced, but don’t you want to know how the concrete became pulverized? I would love to know how the concrete at and above the point of collapse got pulverized but especially would like to know how it became pulverized at the moment of initial collapse.
mostly i want to know how can gravity throw steel girders hundreds of feet laterally to be embedded in other buildings. ( including some girders that were identified as originating from near and even above the point of ‘collapse’)
hundreds of feet laterally
Buckling.
The collapse was obviously not a polite, neat retraction but a more complex affair, with forces transmitted not through the ether but through complexly branching structural members, concentrating at the nodes. Elements will buckle, bend and then fail suddenly – and catastrophically, ith all the pent-up energy suddenly released.
Take a delicate structure (and a skyscraper is delicate at its scale) and crush it and inevitably some parts will be flung sideways.
at and above the point of collapse
Gravity leads down. The kinetic force of an impact propagates in all directions.
Of course, the other point is that one truther argues that the towers fell vertically into their own footprint, while another argues steel girders were throw hundreds of feet laterally.
If only there was some sort of consistent, logical methodology by which one can create mathematical models of reality and then test the resulting hypotheses in the real world. Rather than starting from a conclusion and inventing elaborate, untestable theories that need to be evaluated more by faith than reason.
Crudely, sitting on a burger will cause mayonaise and ketchup and the odd gherkin to squirt out the sides while the burger itself is flattened.
To be fair, though, engineering is counter-intuitive,
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic
… so one should never think about engineering with the heart, gut or the pancreas or whatever.
The most common and most reflexive and hardest to overcome mental habit is to think that large structures behave like small solid objects – ie., toppling over over when nudged.
There’s a catalogue here of things that feel “right” but are utterly wrong:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodScience
>>a feather or rock in still air they will land at the same time gravity is constant.
NO.
Air friction will cause light objects to fall slower. Remover the air friction and the statement is true.
Challenge for more points. How can you show a rock and a feather will fall at the same rate in your living room.
I’ll buy the momentum theory
Momentum is simple Newtonian physics, it’s not something one has a choice about “buying”.
OK, the mass. First, a cloud of dust and debris seen expanding from the side of a building is impressive, but minor in terms of mass. When concrete shatters, it breaks into a range of larger and smaller pieces right down to dust size. The dust particles, being of lower mass, can be thrown further sideways as they fall down. The larger chunks remain within.
Most of the structure is steel, however, and steel is ductile, meaning that it stretches, bends and tears, but essentially stays together as large clumps.
In addition to the trusses, we have office equipment – desks, chairs, couches, heavy wood conference tables, computers, whiteboards, TVs, stereos, feather dusters, toilets and sinks, files in cabinets and shelves, (paper is very heavy – archives and libraries have to have specially strengthened floors), paintings, bronze sculptures, carpet, plumbing and air-conditioning systems, vending machines, catering equipment and food, refrigerators, bottled drinks, water reservoirs, cables, glass, potted plants, aquaria, partitions, suspended ceilings, paperweights, packed lunches, burgers and fries, people… etc etc.
Not very much ends up as dust and there’s not so much forcing that mass sideways anyway. Everything, even the dust, is heading down.
<strongest floors in the bottom half of the building, should have easily survived
Nope. Not “even if”. Nothing is infinitely strong. Consider the thought experiment of a 100-storey building. Floor 99 has the mass of floor 100 above it. Floor 98 has the weight of floors 99 and 100… and so on. If floor 99 cannot resist the strike of Floor 100 hitting it, then in order for Floor 1 to survive, the force hitting it must be less than that of 100 striking 99, meaning that over 99% of the total mass of the building met be made to disappear.
This is impossible.
And that is without accounting for the acceleration of the falling mass. On earth, an object in free fall accelerates at 9.8 metres per second per second. I couldn’t calculate the effect of deceleration caused by crumpling, but I think that you should get my point.
It wasn’t. Just need to watch the videos to be sure of that.
Wasn’t part of your argument that it all fell in its own footprint, yet now its being ejected out the sides?
Signed
Zionist CIA agent
you also need to watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__gUjUv1vvw
see those big upright thingies all massed together in the middle of the Towers?
where are they in your floor collapse theory ?
The “thingies” are structural cores and elevator shafts. All part of the same. Partly, in their case, they get dragged down in some cases as the floors are welded and bolted to them.
Again, no material is infinitely strong and large structures an aircraft are designed to be slightly better than they need to be under expected conditions, otherwise they would not be economical or useable and wouldn’t be built in the first place.
Slightly better If things go outside expected conditions, then Murphy’s Second Law comes into force – anything that has gone wrong will get worse (and fast).
the thingies are the box steel columns that support the structure that houses your cores and elevator shafts. and yes they were attached to the floor trusses, more accurately the floor trusses were attached to the Columns. Otherwise tall buildings have a bad case of not standing up. They are ‘attached’ with thousands of welded steel rivets and bolts. Thermodynamics has some pretty constant cause and effect scenarios and disspation of heat along a connected steel body is pretty well understood.
All these people that regurgitate the ‘heat brought down the towers’ lie must find it terrifying as the world witnesses a constant stream of steel structures being destroyed by fire. What fortitude they express every time they light the woodburner at home, cook a meal on the stove, drive a car or engage that most dangerous piece of technology known to man, a gas fired barbeque. The horror the horror
pretty well understood
Good idea to use the passive voice impersonal. Active voice first person would have been a mistake.
fortitude they express every time they light the woodburner
If they are as ignorant of fundamental physics, engineering and the role of magnitude as yourself, I imagine they would be.
to save your energy I suggest you find a different tack,
personal insults won’t get a bite
logic and reality don’t get a response, either.
Then why have you used personal insults?
“…we should also consider…”
Go on then, let’s see you consider it. Tick tock tick tock, twelve years, no evidence, and not one piece of checkable engineering calculations. Well, apart from all these. that is, which you have not the tools nor the experience, but crucially, not the inclination nor scepticism nor the honesty to consider, preferring instead to defame the authors and throw red herrings around.
Sad.
No evidence? The issue is that the current official evidence and analysis was limited in scope and does not match up to what was observed.
You may call it “sad” or whatever adjectives you might like, but nothing in the NIST documents detailed events satisfactorily explains the perfectly symmetrical collapse of those 3 buildings of two completely different types.
I’ll add that what Architects and Engineers for 9/11 are asking for is a complete widescope official inquiry. You seem to think its time to move on, all done and dusted. As it were.
Don’t put words in my mouth, wingnut.
It is done and dusted, CV. This thread is proof of that; it’s the first bit of 9/11 truth denialism on TS for months. It used to be a regular feature of open mike, but with the passage of time, the fantasy loses its relevence.
Much as the ‘Elvis is alive’ thing only lasted a few years, 911 delusions will fade fast. Particularly so after the failure of that conference in Toronto to provide any actual evidence. Without credible proof of an alternative, sensible, rational people will stick with the blindingly obvious truth. Which is that the US was sucker punched by a small team of committed fanatics who succesfully did the unthinkable.
Oh, without a doubt.
http://torontohearings.org/
http://www.amazon.com/The-9-11-Toronto-Report/dp/1478369205/
if i could i would buy you all a copy, but i suspect most of you can afford it 😉
Not psychologically we can’t
So let’s see now: NIST’s evidence: freely and publicly available. Truther propaganda: that’ll be $20 please. Ka-ching!
It’s clear to see that there’s a conspiracy to part dimwits from their cash.
Yeah it was the guys in the caves!
No evidence /snort , no evidence of a NIST whitewash either I guess eh!
Ok, you and OAB/Ps B just take your scared selves and run along then, you don’t need to keep defending your position eh bro!
Actually it was HARRP, using thermite-laden chemtrails, that perpetrated 9/11.
What fools like you don’t realise is that all the buildings are still there. The whole thing is the biggest mass hallucination since Buzz Aldrin single-handedly faked the moon landings.
Is this comment part of your social experiment, muzza, or are you being deliberately dim? It really was the guys in the cave, that much we know. The attack was carried out by brainwashed wannabees on behalf of the guys in the caves. This we also know. There is no evidence of an alternative conspiracy after 12 years of right wing blathering. Fact.
So, bloke, P’s B and the rest of us rational thinkers aren’t scared, we’re just well grounded and capableof making sensible conclusions based on the known facts. Any time you can provide evidence that contradicts the known facts, let us know. But, I won’t hold my breath, because after twelve long years, there still isn’t a skerrick of proof that anyone else did it.
KNOWN FACTS
TRP – Joke comment of the year!
BRAVO chap, that is hilarious!
🙄
Here’s another reason I’m emotionally invested in this. The adults would like to be able to have a sensible discussion of US foreign policy, which is pretty much a terrorism factory so far as I can tell, but every time anyone raises it we have to listen to the dimwit chorous insisting we watch this video.
The Moncktons of the left.
“Perfectly symmetrical collapse”. Apart from the fact that it wasn’t. Is all your bullshit so transparently dishonest?
No need to get so angry mate, what have you got emotionally invested in this?
internal reality conflict i reckon
when the heart knows what the brain continues to deny
very unhealthy way to live
Hearts are mostly muscle fibre and contain few neurons. Guts contain E coli and faeces and perhaps the odd tapeworm.
What is my emotional investment? Ethics: specifically. your complete lack of any: your whole argument is based on a premise of fraud perpetrated by individuals you’ve never met, but you think nothing of smearing them and effectively accusing them of being accessories to mass murder.
Your right wing behaviour is disgusting, so I’ll continue to show my contempt and disgust,.
You dont see the irony in your comment do you!
Lets walk it through:
Fraud perpetuated by individuals you have never met – Yet you defend the *official conspiracy theory*, produced by people you have never met, with agendas you claim don’t exist, yet have been rolled out in broad daylight since 2001! Forget about the missing 2.3T Rumsfeld was on the hook for !
smearing them – Yet the smearing has been primarily and agressively against the islamic religion, and people of arabic ethnicity as a whole, while being rather ad hoc in the applications of which group is being smeared, and for which purpose, ever since!
effectively accusing them of being accessories to mass murder – But your belief/support of the *official conspiracy theory* indicates you are comfortable that an entire religion/ethnic peoples are layed waste around the ME/Africa, under the same pretence of being, *accessories to murder*.
End.
No. Wrong. Bzzt!
The USA sows a bunch of dragon’s teeth; they multiply, as dragon’s teeth will.
My respect for Physics and Engineering says absolutely nothing about my opinion of US foreign policy, or Islam, or politics, or any combination thereof.
So stop putting words in my mouth, you tiresome cretin.
And there it is again – Its not respect of physics, engineering or any such thing, its the fear you have built up through your attachment to *believing you know whats going on, and having the theoretical answers to it rationalise it all*. Fear of what is left of you, if you actually didn’t have the answers…
You don’t have them, and you don’t want them!
🙄
Do you remember the little chat we had about confirmation bias Muzza? You remember how I said it’s inescapable by definition. Whether or not you believe this to be true, I certainly do, so:
Remind me how that gells with the notion that I believe I know what’s going on, you tiresome cretin.
Careful OTH – next CV will adopt his usual tactic of accusing anyone who disagrees with him as working for the CIA
I work for the CIA. And I take my instructions from the alien who remote-piloted the drone into the Pentagon. And I mutilate cows from my black helicopter, just for fun.
“And I take my instructions from the alien”
And one day soon, they all will. Muahahaha
But seriously, I didn’t fly a drone into anything… Unless someone can prove it, in which time I’ll shrug it off and claim brain fade.
lol I thought you were Allen with a 1 just because – but there you go…
Aka Al1 and HLM the Humanoid logic machine, but Betty when you call me, you can call me Al 😆
yeth marthter…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxkBHqz9-d4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H89XFB4u94w
etc.
I’ve done that before! Ha! I noticed at least one of them collapsed after being set on fire lol
so just checking, how many times did NIST change not only the modelling but the very theory of how it all eventuated? Exactly how far did they stretch [fabricate] the data to fit a hypothesis that is unknown in the history of steel framed construction? On WTC7 for example they changed their mind three times and then created a whole new physical risk for steel framed buildings, all hail Thermal Expansion. Putting WTC 1&2 aside as there is no plane involvement, and just looking at WTC7, then according to NIST that building in Russia should have collapsed hours ago. Same with many large buildings of various construction that have had major fires this past decade. Only on September 11 2001 did three steel framed buildings collapse due to fire. Never before and never since.
and there was something else too . .. oh yeah
NIST might love to mention the horiziontal methods used in the Towers’ construction but have you ever noticed they do not like to mention the Columns that held the Towers upright ? They even go so far as to say that the central cavity where the lifts were housed were empty space. Every animation has zero columns. You go on about data, why can you not see past the rhetoric and look at the inconsistency in the data. Not just the specifics but the big picture.
“they do not like to mention the Columns”
Really, are you sure? Make sure you like, y’know check their reports for the word “column” first though, aye.
Care to revisit that assertion? Or do I need to hold your hand?
“do not like to mention” is more than a little different from “do not mention” which you are not so subtley implying that i said.
When it comes to the official explanation for the physical events that occured the columns are barely referenced and in much of the modelling they are sidelined or removed completely so as to be insignificant to the result. NIST have all but admitted this themselves, along with the extremes they had to go to to make any of their floor collapse models actually work let alone produce the desired result. A result which people far more qualified then I have shown to be seriously flawed in its methodology.
I do love that deniers try to make out the 9/11 Truth movement is a ragtag bunch of a half dozen loons sitting in front of a video desk making shit up and posting it on Youtube. Youtube is a source of videos that people have collated and edited, yes, even disinfo has had its place amongst it all. (and many youtube vids are highly educational, there’s this one with a banana and a rubber band . . )
But, and this is a big but, the movement also has produced numerous technical papers and regularly laid out simple and direct questions for the relevant authorities to answer. Silence is the most common response. Remember many many things went on that day in many different places and none of it has been adequately answered, yet the World got turned on its head because of the events on September 11 2001.
Many of the questions and the cases they refer to are presented at great expense by the families of the victims. They are regularly subjected to delays and obfuscation and all too often sketchy legal processes have been employed that flat out deny the due process under reasons of National Secruity amongst others.
What you can choose to ignore if you so wish is the simple Truth, this movement is a global network of professionals and laymen who have co-ordinated their limited resources to attempt the accurate and honest discovery of the events of that terrible day. So yes they charge $18 USD for a book, (current on Amazon) because they did not have access to the millions of tax dollars that funded the official story. By the way, the Official 911 Commission volume still costs $8 USD (current on Amazon) yet it was paid for entirely by taxpayers. On the funding note, AE911truth are currently asking for donations for a co-ordinated global Ad campaign to raise 9/11 Truth awareness. Just suckers for punishment I guess.
The vast resources of numerous Governments and associated Agencies continue to this day to work against the wishes of the victims’ families and the first responders that have survived. Sadly, the number of survivors is dwindling and just a few weeks ago further cuts were made to the support offered to these heroes. So perhaps the scale of the discussion is the thing that so aggravates you, or the fact it is growing and not dissolving into nothingness as so many hoped it would. We are not going anywhere. We will not be silenced, but as far as 9/11 talk on the Standard goes I stated back in 2011 that regular dialogues were achieving little and causing unhelpful aggression. Today shows that little has changed. The Standard juggles enough already and I prefer the one on one in real life now. I like the human element as it allows for more of an honest Q&A that actually produces tactile results as lines of enquiry can be dutifully followed and the point scoring that fascinates so many is thankfully absent. Today, as mentioned , was a passing prod at the sleeping bear. Next time, like so many recent opportunities, I will probably not pick up the stick.
one thing more, I don’t recall you standing up in front of Richard Gage on his NZ visit and calling him a right wing moron.
nice to know you care though, holding hands is another of life’s good things
WTC7 is clearly seen on a video clip to have sustained substantial structural damage from very large segments of falling debris from the North Tower. Gashes go through several floors in the back at the middle and southwest corner. It can also be clearly seen in the same video that fiery debris has ignited fires on nearly all floors and those burned for hours. Its collapse in total is not at freefall speed but consistent with structural failure. The collapse is initiated at the Southwest corner and progresses suddenly as each floor impacts the next with fire-weakened steel unable to resist the weight and velocity. The building did not collapse into its own footprint as some claim, it can can be seen in pictures and video to have fallen backwards – its different coloured debris is atop the North Tower debris. The 9/11 building demolition conspiracy isn’t gaining ground because its debunked in so many places.
Its ok Arfamo, you tell yoursrlf what you like, then take it up with the demolition experts, who commented specifically on WTC7.
Forget the fact the building housed all the financial transactiosn data, which only days earlier, existed, and would have meant that Donald Rumsfeld would have had a tough time wishing away the $2.3T of *lost funds* through the pentagon, which had been front page news, and was not going away,
How convenient that all was, not to mention the building housed the data store for huge amounts of fiancial entities, which vansished, never to be talked of again!
Nothing in it though, just all coincidence!
Edit – I work with an american, senior guy, former DoD employee for 8 years. His position is that all 3 buildings were blown up. Not a good look for your point of view, if you get to speak with people such as him. I had that conversation just last week, it was interesting to hear an american who worked for such entities, having that view, and talking about it!
They work against the wishes of all responders and all families of victims?
Yeah, right.
the passages you are no doubt referring to
“Many of the questions and the cases they refer to are presented at great expense by the families of the victims. ” and “The vast resources of numerous Governments and associated Agencies continue to this day to work against the wishes of the victims’ families and the first responders that have survived. ”
Neither of these state all the families or all the victims and it is a fifty fifty call how you got there i suppose. Though as we sit here, the many lives involved which unacknowledged illnesses and needless tragedies continue to diminish, should not have to suffer the indignity of being so easily dismissed.
I’m not going to get into a semantic argument about it.
I just think the bigger indignity is being the obsessive hobby of nutjobs around the world.
I get some of the victims clutching at straws in grief. But most truthers? Pffft.
A variation of the usual liar line – honour the dead by not asking too many questions.
Nope. But if it really was pretty much just hijackers + plane+towers=thousands dead, it makes your average truther half a world away look like a bit of a dick.
Like I say, grieving relatives is one thing.
But hobbyists who can’t get their stories straight are in grave danger of being dicks.
Yeah I guess being afraid to look like dicks should be a real consideration. Just try to remember that most of the people who died because of 9/11 didn’t die on that day.
Frankly, I’m don’t think a lot of truthers give as much of a damn about the dead as they do about believing in their own superior knowledge about nefarious global conspiracies and how much better the world would be if everyone were intellectual giants like them.
😆 so they can uncover the biggest most pernicious conspiracy in history, but not leverage that into wealth and power without my $20? And why is everyone laughing at them? You. Whichever.
That’s some mighty fine truthiness.
“heating the steel which loses much of its structural strength well below its melting point.”
Absolutely true hot steel can bend. It cannot however cause thousands of welded rivets on every floor to consistently and simultaneously fail, which is required for the collapse theory to work. Also, if you have a minute, could you be so kind as to explain where the vast quantity of extreme heat came from to form the pools of molten metal that were still being discovered weeks after the Towers’ collapse? Then again why bother . . .
There are literally thousands and thousands of points that a tit for tat truth game fail to adequately cover. As entertaining as it can be, it is also a waste of resources as very few supporters of the Official Story who engage in Truth discussions on-line, ever do it honestly and with an open mind.
In my little life, one on one dialogue has proven to be the only reliable method of 911 discussion that actually stands a chance of combating the ignorance that stubbornly refuses to follow the facts. 911 Truth is more complex than a single event and the back and forth of a chatbox cannot come close to the soul crunching reality of having to lie to another’s face when the Truth finally busts the door in on your psyche. It is perhaps one of the most difficult re-adjustments a person will ever make in their life. Knowing the world is a big evil place blah blah blah is one thing, Accepting the totality of the lie that was sold to the world takes guts and has broken people. Only you can decide how much truth you are willing to sweep under the carpet, only you have to live with the lumpy rug of your life.
Better to live a happy sheltered life without looking too hard or too far afield. Possibly.
Better to generate witless delusions than admit you can’t verify engineering calculations to save your life.
Actually I can, but I never start such an analyses without understanding different alternative big pictures which might come into play. You’ve already decided however.
your mind was so open your faculty of reasoning fell out.
CV, what a load of bollocks. If NIST’s maths are wrong, all you need is a blackboard and some chalk.
What was it that helped me decide? For one thing, the fact that instead of blackboards and chalk (or even, god forbid, some actual engineering software), all you’ve got is a series of breathless talking heads on Youtube and a bunch of defamatory false allegations against NIST employees.
I don’t like your right wing bullshit any more than I like John Key’s
CV being right wing now too? That seems to be your only response these days. I believe it was CV who had to back out for a while because he upset the Labour leadership and he wanted to stay with the “left wing” party.
Believing bullshit in the face of all available evidence is a right wing trait.
“As entertaining as it can be, it is also a waste of resources as very few supporters of the Official Story who engage in Truth discussions on-line, ever do it honestly and with an open mind.”
One Tāne Huna, I have been impressed in the past when you state that people need to open their mind to the real history of this Nation. You regularly berate others who don’t take off their blinkers regarding the Government’s position on numerous issues in Aotearoa especially when touching on historical innaccuracies that we live with, then you go and parrot US led propoganda designed to promote War and Poverty and Greed.
I for one get a little confused about what you actually want from this life.
The 911 debacle is, heh, a slow burner, it is not going away. My partner had an immediate “what the…” reaction watching some of the available videos particularly building 7 that was not even hit by an airplane. She is into architecture and such and no calculations were required for her to smell a rodent.
I think it will be revealed as a ‘black op’ in future decades. People on forums like this have only limited license to demand this or that from other commenters. The ongoing ferocity of the debate about 911 imo is due to people’s world view and belief systems being challenged.
Me, I am well aware of the track record of the US military/spooks and crooked offshoots. I mean they turned the ‘attack on Iraq’ into a corporate feeding frenzy.
Granada, Cuba etc anyone?
Freedom, what “propaganda”? Is the National Institute of Standards & Technology a CIA front on your planet?
Perhaps the reason I’m insisting on Physics and Engineering is the same reason I insist on a similarly skeptical approach to right wing drivel wherever it can be found. Ya think?
It cannot however cause thousands of welded rivets on every floor to consistently and simultaneously fail, which is required for the collapse theory to work.
Three rivets. One fails. The remaining two now have half again as much stress, instantly. One more fails, and now the remaining rivet’s stress has increased threefold, nearly instantly.
Also, if you have a minute, could you be so kind as to explain where the vast quantity of extreme heat came from to form the pools of molten metal that were still being discovered weeks after the Towers’ collapse?
Once the aviation fuel has ignited the fire, everything burns. That produces a hell of a lot of heat.
Heat can be lost by radiation or conduction. Surrounding materials and debris can be effective insulators, reducing conduction while blocking radiation. Radiation itself is a very slow process. Moreover, molten steel has an enormous amount of thermal energy tied up in it and takes a very long time to lose.
Never been in a steel mill?
Then again why bother . . .
The rest is sarcasm and metaphysics and is consequently of no interest.
so that’s a no to explaining anything then,
you are sticking with jet fuel and office supplies, good to know i can move on.
I can forsee a large hole resembling the shape of my forehead in the nearest wall so I am not even going to touch on the timespan required for your progressive rivet failure theory.
I thought for half a minute you might have had some logic to go with your ‘911 for parrots’ quotes but sadly the only interesting thing about your comment is your avatar and how it relates to the whole world of conspiracy theories
I’m sticking with physics. Take it up with Newton and Kelvin if you like.
We did and you know what? Turns out you haven’t got a clue about Newton’s laws of Physics
Given that a couple of universities have seen fit to give me a dgree in industrial design and a couple more in architecture and that their accreditation is overseen by the professions that are very cognisant of liability and that I’m now hired to teach architecture students on the integration of structure and design, I would guess that someone thinks that I do.
By the way, I don’t use Youtube in my architecture classes.
Rhinocrates,
As a suitably qualified person you would no doubt have sought out the best information and there is no more technically proficient group of Truthers than Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. You obviously contest the statements from the 1700+ Architects and Engineers who have assigned their professional reputations to the topic of 9/11 Truth. They also have lots of hard earned letters after their name. Could you please show us where they are mistaken? The coolest thing about life, more knowledge is always welcome.
http://www.ae911truth.org/en/home.html
My qualifications have also been declared meaningless, so some might say you’re in good company. I have no specialised knowledge of engineering or architecture, but your explanations make a lot of sense and are consistent with what engineers have told me. I even know people who work at NIST, although they weren’t part of the inquiry.
This obviously means that I support US foreign policy and think that every statement that comes out of Washington is gospel truth, so I suppose I’ll just have to live with that.
I have also never used youtube in a lecture. How my students must be deprived!!
One of my lecturers showed us youtube videos of cats. That was fun. Maybe you should do that.
Lanthanide, well, actually I do show videos of cats, such as this real-life Owl and the Pussycat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hrpiwtJdJY
Could you please…
OK, in good faith, here goes… and I’m sorry, it’s late and I have a lot of work to do tonight, so my statements are going to read like bullet points.
I don’t doubt the sincerity of anyone involved when it comes to their fundamental beliefs.
“1700” looks like a big number, but it isn’t compared to the whole range of professions – in fact, it’s a tiny minority. Still, for s single, limited human being, sifting through 1699 and missing one to have the 1700th thrown at me is not something I care enough about. So, no, I’m not going to pick on any one individual so that 1699 can be thrown at me.
Here is the difference between lawyers (and conspiracy theorists) and scientists:
A lawyer and a conspiracy theorist thinks that truth is like a house of cards – take just one card away and the entire house collapses.
A scientist knows that truth is like a jigsaw puzzle, an old one that’s been in the attic a long time. Pieces are missing, and it’s going to be hard work to fit the rest together, but if you have enough, then you have a best guess – because any other guess has far fewer pieces, because in reality, we’ll never know everything.
Yes, I will admit that Grey alien reptiod Bilderbergers from Zeta Reticuli working in concert with the Freemasons caused the dosai I ate last night to be overcooked, but I really don’t think that that was the most probable explanation by a long shot.
1 percent of uncertainty does not trump 99 percent certainty.
As Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If the claims made by the 911 Truthers require violations of the fundamental laws of physics, which have been proven for centuries now, then they had better front up – and they haven’t. In fact, the arguments that they produce require in themselves require violations of fundamental physics.
Could the US government, under George W Bush do evil things? Oh yes, of course I know that they did – but while Jack the Ripper did evil things, I still don’t think that he killed Marilyn Monroe.
FWIW, I do agree that a full and open inquiry will reveal a great deal of complicity with the Bin Laden family, and a lot of arse-covering by intelligence agencies who were incompetent or at least not omniscient, and people will do at least as much to cover up incompetence as they will to cover up complicity. So yeah, there’s cover-ups that haven’t been revealed in inquiries and won’t be.
The thing about conspiracy theories that provokes my scepticism is their assumption that the conspirators are competent.
Everything that we know about them tells us otherwise.
Cover ups – Check!
Conspiracy Theory – Check
Cover up = Conspiracy!.
Without transparency, openess etc, there is little to no chance of gaining a clear understanding of the why/how/who, which leaves people to draw their own conclusions, using various methods and means.
Until such time as it comes into full light (unlikely), the *official narrative* must be treated as part of any conspiracy, that’s simply the consequence of a *cover up* , on any size or scale!
By their actions, you shall know them!
The official theory is that it happened while GWB was president and that “Muzza” had nothing to do with it.
Maybe you could explain Newton’s Laws to us? You seem very keen on stating that none of us understand them, between your bouts of roflolling. Please enlighten us.
Once you’ve done that, I personally would be keen to have Lord Kelvin’s contributions explained as well.
Heh, thinking of “Roflroflrofl”, I can only refer to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqC5FnvAEc
Roflroflrofl!!!
“The energy used to destroy the building is in fact not the initial impact, but all the gravitational potential energy devoted to lifting its entire mass into the sky in the first place when it was constructed.”
Stupid demolition people using all that dynamite to blow up buildings while all the while those buildings really would behave like knitwork: All you need is to find a way to unleash all that potential energy devoted to keeping all that knitwork together! Find the right stitch and voila Bob’s your uncle. Same with buildings, all you need is the right bolt to break due to heat (like in building 7 apparently according to NIST) and the building will come down in freefall speed into it’s own footprint.
In the mean time the building covered in another oil product called plastic it seems which burned nicely and long unlike the Kerosene of the planes in a few initial minutes, was destroyed but did not collapse into it’s own footprint in free fall speed.
which leaves the real question . .
Did Gerard Depardieu burn the soufflé ?
Hi eve, there’s a photo in this thread of the building under construction. Notice anything?
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1100661&page=2
I see a lot of concrete, but haven’t identified any steel trusses that have been stripped of fire insulation (applied by a New York construction crew in the era of the five families) by the mechanism of a large plane flying into the building.
You’ll find that real demolition work is done on that principle, actually: you don’t “blow the building up”, you use the weight of the building to do most of the demolition for you.
So heres the problem:
You say National can’t be trusted for various reasons (who knows you may even be right)
Labour can’t be trusted to run the country for various reasons and they can’t even run their own party
The Greens just say any old thing and hope no one checks (bit like National and Labour I suppose)
So what options are there for people to vote for or is it a case of the lesser of two (three) evils?
Not keen on NZFirst just to keep a foot in either coalition possibility?
Its not looking good
Yeah, may as well stick with the devil you know eh? Vote National.
Well, if you had actually bothered to check you would have found that the Green Party had been consistent with what’s on their webpage and they back up what they say. This is unlike, say, National.
I’m not saying they don’t stay on message, I’m saying theres a lot of bullcrap in the message and nobody (especially the media) seems keen on calling them on it.
As an example: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/04/greens.html
But this is not specifically about the greens, its about how we’ve all gotten to the stage where we all vote for the lest worst party
You seriously think similar pieces couldn’t be written about national party graphics? Obviously not by DPF, but really?
The only way to not vote for the ‘least worst party’ is to vote for yourself. Otherwise, everyone is making a compromise decision, and that means ‘least worse’.
So don’t be such a big baby. 🙂
“You seriously think similar pieces couldn’t be written about national party graphics?”
Well no thats why I said at the start: “You say National can’t be trusted for various reasons (who knows you may even be right)”
“Otherwise, everyone is making a compromise decision, and that means ‘least worse’.
– I dunno, just doesn’t seem the best way to get things done, how you could change it though is beyond me…
its well and truly beyond you c73!
Adding to the fog of war
Nactional can not be trusted they continually lie!
Stick to you your cup of tea and leave it at that!
Any party leader who forgets he’s got a million dollars or so in a off shore bank account shouldn’t be allowed within kilometres of the levers of power.
It’s National by default.
Actually, I’m more concerned with people who forget the shares that they have despite the fact that they’re professional traders and will be looking at those shares and what the price is doing on a day to day basis.
When you’re worth 50+ million, what a few shares, easy to forget about, especially Tranz Rail ones, toilet paper had more value than those shares.
David Shearer though, very suspicious.
How can the chap from the UN forget he has a million dollars lying around in a offshore bank account, what’s he hiding?, any reporter worth their salt would be all over this.
Yeah, especially when you’re also trying to sell them to a business in Texas via your government contacts for more than you bought them for.
“Yeah, especially when you’re also trying to sell them to a business in Texas via your government contacts for more than you bought them for.”
Yeah, and in case anyone (BM) has forgotten, Key’s dishonesty in this instance went WAAAAY beyond just lying 2 or 3 times directly into the camera and changing his story several times as it became obvious that the journo had more info than he first thought.
No the real sin here was that repeatedly Key was using parliament to ask questions designed to procure financial information about the company for his won personal use.
Where does the million dollar figure come from? You wouldn’t just be making stuff up, would you? Seems to be the done thing in this thread.
Seen a few numbers thrown about.
But since Shearer won’t tell any one, all we can do is speculate.
“But since Shearer won’t tell any one, all we can do is make shit up.
FIFY
“Seen a few numbers thrown about.”
Yeah I’ve seen Slater make a few up, and then BM says he “read it somewhere”, and then he increases it by 50%, and then a few other nutjobs repeat it around the blogs, and then Slater says he “heard somewhere” that it was twice as much, and then BM says he heard that too etc etc.
I heard it was just over 9000 dollars.
Not that you’d let facts get in the way if he had.
If it’s just speculation, $50 million is a more prumstrial number. Do you have any idea how many shares Cunliffe has in Monsanto and Petrobras? Maybe we could speculate that Norman Russell has a few million in Rio Tinto? Be asprishnul and ambishush, don’t stop with Shearer.
I heard it was Saddam’s WMD, until he swapped that for tonnes of naz1 gold.
Sick buckets at the ready for a war criminal’s perverted feminism….
Learn to Speak Up
by CONDOLEEZZA RICE • April 1, 2013
There have been many times in my career when I was the only woman in the room; if I didn’t speak up, it was often noticed. I found speaking up took practice, but over time it became an important source of growth in my career.
One moment occurred during my freshman year of college. I was 16 years old and taking my first government class. Midway through the lecture, the professor introduced a bizarre theory as if it was a matter of course: Black people are born with lower IQs than white people. Everyone – including the black students – just sat there, accepting his theory as fact. Meanwhile, I was a 16-year-old black woman in college who spoke two languages and could play Beethoven and Bach on the piano. I was stunned, not only by this absurd statement, but by the lack of reaction from the other students. So I raised my hand.
The professor was stunned that I chose to speak up, and seemed even more amazed when I showed up the next day to argue the point. After that day, he realized his mistake and attempted to befriend me. I went on to excel in the course, despite the obstacles. I also learned a valuable lesson: If you find something uncomfortable or wrong, speak up. If you don’t challenge people, you aren’t doing your job.
In 1984, another situation arose that challenged me to speak up once again. I attended a seminar at Stanford featuring the then-National Security Advisor, who spoke on a commission I felt very strongly about. His mealy-mouthed answers caused my blood pressure to rise; yet no one pressed him for further information. So I raised my hand and shared my perspective. He seemed surprised, yet also impressed. Later he approached me and we talked. He noted my willingness to speak up and praised my thought process. That moment led to a life-long relationship, with him acting as an early mentor.
As my career evolved, so did my desire and need to speak up. Early on in my role as the National Security Advisor, I often had the opportunity to present options, but rarely did I ever voice a strong opinion in front of the President.
One afternoon, I found myself in a heated debate over President Bush giving a speech on the situation in the Middle East. It was a violent time, and there was concern that the President’s speech would only exacerbate the situation. I knew the President wanted to give the speech, so I decided to speak up. I said, “Mr. President, sometimes the only person who can make an impact is the President of the United States. You have to do this.” I waited for his response, nervous that I had overstepped. Instead, he smiled and agreed. He gave the speech and it was a rousing success.
It would be easy to say I have always spoken up at the right times….
If you have the stomach for it, you can read the rest of this ghastly woman’s hypocrisy HERE….
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1364979668.html
I met a Chemistry Professor from the university she’d been in charge of (Stanford?). He considered her extremely mediocre intellectually and said her main achievement was to make university administration meetings confidential. He’d withdrawn from a committee rather than sign a confidentiality agreement, so she certainly didn’t think speaking up was an admirable quality in her subordinates.
I thought the dateline for this item was significant, but it appears that it really was written, in a tone of high seriousness, by Condoleezza Rice herself.
As well as the intellectual mediocrity you mention, it is clear she also lacks a sense of irony.
UK Split Into Seven Social Classes, From The ‘Elite’ To The ‘Precariat’
It seems rather disturbing that the professor seems surprised that the rich exist and that they have advantages over everyone else.
Try taking the test on bbcnews.com! Simply by making one addition on a second pass, I seemed to jump from ‘traditional working class’ to ‘established middle class’ in no time at all.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973
Still, there have been people that tell me I’m a round peg in a square’s hole :p
And there was me thinking you had no class at all 😆
Elite – the most privileged group in the UK, distinct from the other six classes through its wealth. This group has the highest levels of all three capitals
Established middle class – the second wealthiest, scoring highly on all three capitals. The largest and most gregarious group, scoring second highest for cultural capital
Technical middle class – a small, distinctive new class group which is prosperous but scores low for social and cultural capital. Distinguished by its social isolation and cultural apathy
New affluent workers – a young class group which is socially and culturally active, with middling levels of economic capital
Traditional working class – scores low on all forms of capital, but is not completely deprived. Its members have reasonably high house values, explained by this group having the oldest average age at 66
Emergent service workers – a new, young, urban group which is relatively poor but has high social and cultural capital
Precariat, or precarious proletariat – the poorest, most deprived class, scoring low for social and cultural capital
Well, according to the BBC, this 60+ year old is an emergent service worker, characterised by:
Thanks for the link. Interesting survey. I actually don’t think the Prof was surprised that this group exists. More that he hadn’t expected it would show up so clearly in a major survey. He indicates it’s something that social scientists knew, but haven’t had substantial enough evidence to really go with it. He says:
I guess it indicates more that long held major paradigms are hard to shift in social sciences, without substantial, sound research-based evidence.
It also give’s significant reinforcement of the term “precariat” which is getting increasing currency in left wing politics.
The categories they identify at the extremes are the most significant and useful. There’s been various attempts to categorise classes showing more gradations than the Marxist working vs capitalist classes, taking into account social status, cultural capital etc – there’s so many relevant factors it’s always difficult to pin down clear class bands.
“It also give’s significant reinforcement of the term “precariat” which is getting increasing currency in left wing politics”.
And especially so in countries whose gubbamints are still wedded to the neo-liberal dogma.
Interesting link, Draco. Thanks
Progressive taxation is regularly attacked in the media. Higher tax rates restrains the richest – well if they didn’t pay lobbyists to create loopholes.
There is to be a law change in the air concerning ‘incitement to commit suicide’. I wonder if it is aimed at people who help others with euthanasia. I am hoping that the politicians will actually pass a law that sets out procedures to facilitate this in an organised and legal way that respects the wishes of the person and protects them against pressure from others.
Any laws passed that bear on euthanasia should be directed to making this a human and humane process carried out effectively by members of the family who can face the decision to die and last ceremony. The last thing that should happen is for law makers, medical or bureaucratic personnel to become arbiters of people’s lives so they are forced to exist beyond their wishes.
Wanna know who thinks the PM’s a dick?
The PM’s Chief Science Advisor that’s who:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC1304/S00009/gluckman-interpreting-science.htm
Gosh, whatever could he mean by that?
@PB ….. it doesn’t surprise me. I suspect Key, in all his arrogance, appointed Gluckman because he thought he could be a useful ally rather than because of his acumen.
Gluckman has authored a discussion paper on the issue.
Society uses science; good science simple ways to understand how to act in concert to produce the best outcome. Take roading science, where the simple practice of all on the left (or right) makes it possible to quickly get to where you need to be. As Einstein pointed out, keep it simple but no simpler. The problem with Gluckman take on matters is its a generalization, good public science requires that the problem being discuss is referenced, then understanding of the
problem is displayed, then and only then should we accord the speaker with any integrity, if they then do not allow themselves a forum to be question in, or respond in put downs and other poor debating tactics. Gluckman is merely a talking head for Key to see being scientific minded.
Now the media often reworks, highly manufactures the work of science in order to sell newspapers, this is entirely different from the need of society for simple science that helps us act in concert to achieve results that we value. i.e. Media sluts. Science isn’t found in the media much, its found in legislation, and its noted Gluckman has little to say about legislative ends of science.
like for example, have too few mine inspectors, when you don’t measure you can’t avoid, a simple scientific practice that any chief scientist should be aware of. But you see the Human Rights Commission deals with Human rights practices of government, so you’d think that the chief science advisor would also deal to the practice of public science that legislation creates, or ministers ignore.
Like Climate change predicting globally more flash flooding, more droughts, and so when they appear, ADVISING Joyce not to make a dick of himself by arguing against climate change and
its effects on our economy, our diary output, our water use, our clean green branding.
The irony. Mistress Collins is concerned about bullying.
She’s gotta keep all those private prison stats up after all! It’ll be justification for another one coming to an area near you. Perhaps there’ll be a smelter site ripe for conversion before too long. Shove a few partitions and a roof on those pot lines, and Bob’s your uncle.
Ticks all the boxes – it’s a win-win situation – regional development, tough on crime, etc. etc
(I am thinking NAct type strategic planning)
And this is why we will see our power bills rise after the Mighty River sale:
Parasites!
Solid Energy is their template obviously Karol
Parasites!
+1
Parasites go on a feeding frenzy for some unknown reason once ‘mum and dad’ take over. This is sick and unjustified but I’m sure the directors will turn it down ha fucking ha.
meanwhile in other parts of the world the mining and exploitation companies continue to abuse and destroy indigenous peoples and their lives – our situation here is interconnected with all struggles especially underreported ones.
I urge everyone interested to go to Intercontinental Cry and read further.
http://intercontinentalcry.org/underreported-struggles-72-march-2013/
Lets play “Guess the employer!” My money’s on Novopay
http://www.seek.co.nz/job/24274408?tracking=JMC-000034
aka No Pay
lol
I hope they’re paying a premium rate for stress. Could be any payroll company that sells vapour ware, but yeah Novopay.
Minister for Work and Pensions Iain Duncan Smith, one of the many millionaires in the UK Cabinet, has provoked outrage by saying he could live on £53 a week benefits.
It reminds one of the story about Tony Blair when on the speaking circuit, going into his bank and asking if he could have the amount he could withdraw from the bank’s ATMs increased.
“Let’s see,” said the cashier, “Do you earn more than £25,000?”
“It depends,” replied Tony. “Some days I do, some days I don’t.”
The British man called Mick Philpott with his wife and his drug-mate has been tried for setting fire to his house where his children were.
The plan was for Philpott to rescue his children and for Willis (a previous lover who had left him) to be prosecuted for arson, the court heard. But it went horribly wrong when the blaze took hold fast. The adults escaped the house but the six children died as they slept. (We hope.)
But in 1978 –
Philpott launched a savage attack on 17-year-old Kim Hill – before turning the knife on her mother.
He was convicted of attempted murder and GBH with intent and jailed for seven years.
Jurors in Philpott’s latest trial were not told about his previous conviction after judge Mrs Justice Thirlwall refused to allow the shocking incident to be used in evidence
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4870695/Revealed-Mick-Philpott-stabbed-ex-girlfriend.html#ixzz2PRuHSSuf
* He has been in trouble for vicious attacks – these went back to 1978.
* He was a 21 year old soldier at that time.
* Some years later he pinned another girlfriend down and held a knife at her throat.
* Now in his mature age he, and his mates, set fire to his house and six of his children died as a
result.
* If such a person was kept in jail for his whole life from the first attacks that showed a
thoroughly dangerous and degenerate man who was unlikely to be habilitated, others
wouldn’t have had to go through hell because of him.
* He wouldn’t be able to breed a family of 17 children who would have a screwed up life as a
result of their parents being bad role models.
* He sounds as if he has the mindset of Wilson of Blenheim, an ugly and aggressive man
about to be released after all sorts of appeals.
And some are using the case to hit welfare – ‘Anyone convicted of any welfare fraud should receive a lifetime ban on ..’ It is obvious that there should be shorter sentences for welfare fraud, and longer ones for being a vicious, violent, abusive person who is a danger to society.
And lastly when trying these people, the law makes certain they get a ‘fair trial’ by not revealing that they are degenerate criminals to the jury. No mention of any past wrongdoing is told to them. They should be told at the end of the trial so that they have the whole picture of the person they are deciding on.
I felt great saddness when I saw the photo of the six children who died. It has been reported that Philpott tried to chat up a police woman and he was joking/laughing when down at the police station just after the fire.
To be charged with manslaughter and not murder is not right either.
Don’t know if the translation quite fits whats being said but its amusing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Kq78G2nxA
I know that there are thousands on the East half of Washington DC who do seem to live like that. Not sure about the snow-coffee though. Sometimes information like that comes out of North Korea but the camera doesn’t lie – does it?
Interesting thanks chris73
I go to american prepping websites a fair bit, quite interesting some of the stuff they post about. North Korea has certainly got their attention.
A guy called Alun Hill did it as a joke, he admits he does not speak Korean, then it got picked up by some online news crew who mistakenly ran with it thinking it legit
as spoof it has some great lines despite the daily struggle of the reality the pictures expose
North v South.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/GYr-700uQUQ
Kind of says it all really and of course South Korea has some big friends they can call on, not sure China would think its worth going to war over North Korea, in fact they’re probably hoping the USA and South Korea does deal to them and take them over, it’d mean more stability in the region which would = bigger profits and they wouldn’t have to prop up North Korea…
Sounds like a CONSPIRACY THEORY
And the hits just keep on coming…
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/economic-crisis-hits-the-netherlands-a-891919.html
How will the Netherlands react to another potential German takeover?
Yep, that’s what happens when private banks are allowed to print money and are incentivised to do so by being allowed to charge interest on it.
Fuck:
http://www.sfx.co.uk/2013/04/03/a-personal-statement-from-ian-m-banks/
🙁
very sad – one of my favorite authors
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04042013/#comment-614007
One Tāne Huna said
“The adults would like to be able to have a sensible discussion of US foreign policy, which is pretty much a terrorism factory so far as I can tell, but every time anyone raises it we have to listen to the dimwit chorus insisting we watch this video.”
complete horsepuckey
These days it is a rare day when 911 issues, specifically the physical events of the day, get mentioned on The Standard.
Today was an obvious tease, poking a sleeping bear with a stick so to speak, due to the events in Russia, (still hasn’t collapsed btw)
It is not a ‘conspiracy theory’ to reference 911 when discussing the Neo-Imperial aspirations of the USA into the Middle East and other Asian regions and how the events of that day were used as justification for the slaughter of hundreds and thousands of people and the instigation of a global war against largely manufactured enemies.
It is not a ‘conspiracy theory’ to reference 911 when discussing the acquisition by the DHS for hundreds of armoured personal carriers or thousands of drones or the millions of rounds of ammunition or the establishment of the TSA or the removal of an ever growing list of civil liberties throughout America. All of which are a direct and very real result of the events of September 11 2001.
It is not a ‘conspiracy theory’ to reference 911 when discussing how all US foreign policy from that day forth has been based on a litany of misinformation and hyperbole, most of which over the past decade has been proven false. Facts that to this day are openly ignored by the Administration itself.
It is a ‘conspiracy theory’ to blather on about a very complex set of engineering calculations without being able to write them down, let alone do the Maths.
It is a ‘conspiracy theory’ when it requires thousands of individuals to be in on it.
It is a ‘conspiracy theory’ when all rational rebuttal is rejected.
Woman Burned Alive For Sorcery: Is Being Female A Death Sentence?
Those two were lucky.
And before we get too uppity about ourselves in the West:
Yeah, we’ve got a long way to go before we call ourselves civilised.
I wonder how strong the fundamentalist churches are in Papua New Guinea. I don’t know whether fundamentalist and evangelising means the same outcome. The evangelising spirit in some churches alone, prompts a quick response to previously little known areas that are probably still versed in aminism or whatever has been traditional. Mix the ultimate truths of such christianity (with a small c) and the traditional responses to wrong-doing and that might be an explanation for this savage witch-hunting.
Seen this?
____________________________________________________________________________
Shut The Smelter!
LET THE “TOO BIG TO FAIL” SMELTER FAIL
“Too big to fail” was the mantra of the robber banks and other transnational financial sharks during the Global Financial Crisis, which remains ongoing. This left the victims to pay for the costs of the crime, while the corporate criminals walked away scotfree and kept their loot. The people of Cyprus are the latest to experience firsthand just how this works.
In this country, Rio Tinto’s Bluff smelter was decades ahead of the fashion. Every time that Rio Tinto feels that its charmed existence in New Zealand is going to become less cushy, it threatens to pull the plug, close the smelter and walk away. It does so in the knowledge that it has always been deemed “too big to fail” by the succession of Governments, both National and Labour, that it has effortlessly outmanoeuvred for more than 40 years. This time it is trying it on as a tactic to try to pressure Meridian over its power price contract, on which the ink is barely dry and which only took effect in January.
Campaign Against Foreign Control of Aotearoa (CAFCA) calls Rio Tinto’s bluff (pun intended). Stop crying wolf, stop using your New Zealand workers as disposable pawns in your cynical game, stop holding Southland and the country to ransom. Go ahead and close the smelter and bugger off. See if we care, the country will be much better off without you. The smelter is the country’s single biggest user of electricity, consuming one sixth of the total, 24/7 for more than 40 years. It pays a top secret super cheap price that is not available for any other user and all it does is export electricity from NZ in the form of alumina, while being subsidised by all other electricity users. The smelter is the textbook example of corporate welfare in New Zealand. It is the biggest bludger in the country.
How ironic that Rio Tinto has rejected the Government’s offer of a short term subsidy. It wants a long term one, preferably indefinitely. Presumably, this is in addition to the massive taxpayer subsidy it has been receiving continuously for more than 40 years, in the form of the Manapouri power station built with public money for its exclusive use (and let’s never forget that men died building that); and the cheapest and most secret power price rate in the country bar none. Not good enough apparently, it still wants more.
Rio Tinto won the 2011 Roger Award for the Worst Transnational Corporation Operating In Aotearoa/New Zealand (and was runner up in both 2009 and 08). It was nominated for lobbying two Governments “over several years to secure excessive allocations of free emissions units under the NZ Emissions Trading Scheme”.
The Roger Award judges agreed, concluding: “It appears therefore, that the New Zealand taxpayer is subsidising a transnational corporate rort of the emissions trading scheme… The significance of this stance cannot be underestimated; a major transnational player within New Zealand materially benefits from its non-compliance with a strategy to reduce global climate change and its ecological effects”.
The Judges’ Report concludes that the company has a 50 year history of “suborning, blackmailing and conning successive New Zealand governments into paying massive subsidies on the smelter’s electricity; dodging tax, and running a brilliantly effective PR machine to present a friendly, socially responsible and thoroughly greenwashed face to the media and the public. Its milking of the Emissions Trading Scheme is entirely in character”.
The extremely detailed Financial Analysis reveals that the smelter’s claimed benefits to NZ, namely annual export earnings of “around $1 billion” are, in fact, overstated by four fifths.
The full, damning, 2011 Roger Award Judges’ Report can be read at http://canterbury.cyberplace.co.nz/community/CAFCA/publications/Roger/Roger2011.pdf
Rio Tinto is, once again, a finalist in the 2012 Roger Award, the winner of which will be announced in Wellington on May 1 (http://www.watchblogaotearoa.blogspot.co.nz/)
In short, it is a liability to New Zealand, not an asset.
What about the people who work for the smelter, directly or indirectly? Indisputably, the smelter closing would have a negative impact on Invercargill and Southland. But let’s keep a sense of proportion – in disaster terms it doesn’t compete with Christchurch having lost 185 lives, 50,000 jobs, and sustained $30 billion worth of damage in a matter of seconds on February 22, 2011. If Christchurch can get back in the saddle after that, Invercargill should be able to handle the smelter closure and its attendant job losses. As a plus, the city will be able to shake off its unhealthily dependent situation as a company town with its local government at the beck and call of this transnational bludger.
The tobacco industry used to employ a lot of people here, but that was deemed to be no longer in the public interest. Lacing lollywater with booze and selling it to kids supports a lot of jobs too but there’s plenty of public demand to get rid of that particular industry as well. The P industry provides an income for thousands of people too, but we don’t hear any demand for that insidious trade to be kept going to keep them in a job. History is full of examples of horrible industries that kept people in jobs (such as the slave trade) but which were banned and/or abolished for the greater good.
This smelter constitutes a crime against the people of New Zealand and has done for its entire existence.
In the national interest, it must be closed and the sooner the better.
It would be a great bonus to have 15% of the country’s electricity suddenly available and no longer committed to one smelter. There would no excuse for the moneygrabbing power companies not to cut their prices (we’ve been falsely promised lower power prices since the “electricity reforms” of the 1990s). And, we’re told, it would drive down Meridian’s attractiveness to would be buyers as part of the Government’s assets sale process. How ironic that the selfishness and ruthlessness of one transnational corporation could bugger up the plans to flog off more of our public assets to transnational corporations.
Murray Horton
Secretary/Organiser
CAFCA
Campaign Against Foreign Control of Aotearoa
Box 2258, Christchurch, New Zealand
cafca@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www.cafca.org.nz
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=117427631610589&ref=ts
http://www.watchblogaotearoa.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/#!/NZN4S
http://canterbury.cyberplace.co.nz/community/CAFCA/publications/Roger/Roger2011.pdf
canterbury.cyberplace.co.nz
Thanks for that, Penny. Murray Horton is one of this country’s most engaging and entertaining speakers. He always has lots of interesting things to say, and he says them forthrightly and stylishly. Yet he has never appeared on National Radio’s The Panel.
It can’t be because he is from Christchurch; after all, his fellow Christchurch identity Barry Corbett seems to be on the programme half a dozen times a year at least.
Gr8 post Penny
In the could be a little bit interesting file:
Leaks of records from offshore tax havens
A naming project is starting up to expose government officials, businesses, individuals and families using British Virgin Islands and other offshore tax havens to avoid tax in their own countries. With 200 gigabytes of data from the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, a fair few people will be keeping their accountants quite busy right now.
And… When looking at how they analysed the data
there’s a bit of added interest in the list of journalists.
You mean the Mike Williams H-bomb that had the Herald journos already working on it in Melbourne when Mike got there?
[lprent: FFS – learn to use the reply button like everyone else. Shifting this to OpenMike as it is out of context for the post. ]