Open mike 04/06/2015

138 comments on “Open mike 04/06/2015 ”

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1. Heyegg 1

   4 June 2015 at 7:03 am

   http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/06/martin_weitzman.html

   An interesting discussion from the right on climate change apropos James Shaw’s position.
   • Paul 1.1

     4 June 2015 at 7:26 am

     From Wikipedia.
     ‘Weitzman serves as a consultant to The World Bank, Stanford Research Institute, International Monetary Fund’

     So a pillar of the neoliberal system, then….
   • weka 1.2

     4 June 2015 at 9:12 am

     The Herald’s editorial saying Key should accept Shaw’s CC offer,

     http://m.nzherald.co.nz/climate-change/news/article.cfm?c_id=26&objectid=11459348
2. Heyegg 2

   4 June 2015 at 7:37 am

   Yes, and if you think that’s bad look up Russ Roberts the interviewer.
3. AsleepWhileWalking 3

   4 June 2015 at 7:53 am

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/69058217/new-5-million-study-to-boost-childrens-health-by-improving-housing.html

   Landlords….providing a valuable service, or exploiting both the NZ tax and benefit system to the detriment of the community?
   • Draco T Bastard 3.1

     4 June 2015 at 11:21 am

     Rentiers of all stripes are always detrimental to society. This has been known for better than 2000 years which is why both main religions have rules against usury.

     Capitalism and private property encourage rentier behaviour.
     • johnm 3.1.1

       4 June 2015 at 12:18 pm

       100% DTB

       You’ll be interested in this quote from Noam Chomsky:

       “…free enterprise, [is] a term that refers, in practice, to a system of public subsidy and private profit, with massive government intervention in the economy to maintain a welfare state for the rich.”

       The Rentiers certainly are supported by the government and easy money from the banks who want to make on interest and a sure bet they can get their dough back by selling up, subsidised by the accommodation allowance from the public’s tax wealth. And no CGT of course. Most of our MPs are at this selfish game.

       Our young people being turned into rent-for-life serfs. This wasn’t the kiwi way not so long ago!
   • weka 3.2

     4 June 2015 at 12:22 pm

     “A $5 million study by a team of Wellington researchers aims to boost children’s health by improving New Zealand’s housing.”

     This makes me very angry. We already know that improving housing improves children’s health. Has it really come to this that the govt has to fund research to prove that it’s not doing its job? Incompetent is the only word I can think of, although soul destroying and mindfuckery come to mind as well.

     Good luck to the researchers, but I’d rather the $5m was spent on implementation.
     • Colonial Rawshark 3.2.1

       4 June 2015 at 12:25 pm

       Good housing was known in the 1930s to be critical to good health. All the rest of this is just for the appearance of doing something.
     • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2

       4 June 2015 at 12:32 pm

       We already know that improving housing improves children’s health.

       Correct:

       A cold and damp Housing New Zealand home contributed to the death of a toddler from bronchopneumonia, a coroner has found.

       South Auckland toddler Emma-Lita Bourne, 2, died in Starship Hospital on August 8 last year.

       This death is a direct result of the poverty that capitalism produces.
       • weka 3.2.2.1

         4 June 2015 at 1:01 pm

         A good pro bono lawyer needs to step up on that one.
       • Rosie 3.2.2.2

         4 June 2015 at 1:03 pm

         +1 weka, CR and Draco.

         Our government failed in it’s moral duty to legislate for sound warm housing for all, rather leaving the issue of housing up to an unregulated market. Despite that, no one will be held to account for the preventable death of the toddler.
     • Molly 3.2.3

       4 June 2015 at 12:38 pm

       About four years ago, I met a registered nurse who was involved in an Auckland Health Board (?) research study into housing and illness that was costing $2 million.

       All this research and no effective responses…
       • Colonial Rawshark 3.2.3.1

         4 June 2015 at 5:01 pm

         I suggest follow up studies
         • Molly 3.2.3.1.1

           6 June 2015 at 11:20 am

           🙂
4. cogito 4

   4 June 2015 at 8:54 am

   Anyone seen this?

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/well-good/teach-me/69061635/chocolate-weightloss-study-was-a-fake-research-troll-reveals

   Great example of how people and media get manipulated.

   Just substitute any number of National’s policies, and it becomes frighteningly clear how easily people get taken in.
5. weka 5

   4 June 2015 at 9:01 am

   Dunedin flooding (I assume the last date is a typo)

   “MetService meteorologist Arno Dayson said in the 23 hours until 11pm yesterday, 160.2mm of rain had fallen in Dunedin, more than double the previous record for a full day (83mm in May 2010) since records began in 2006.”

   http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/344634/record-rainfall-city-awash

   Quite a few standardistas in Dunedin, hope you are all well.
   • Gangnam Style 5.1

     4 June 2015 at 9:51 am

     Street still flooded, houses on corners of st where the road is deepest have been flooded, water has maybe gone down a couple inches, but very slowly.
     • weka 5.1.1

       4 June 2015 at 10:28 am

       I’m guessing the water table is full. Unless that’s clay on the flat parts of the city? The fire brigade were saying there was nowhere to pump the water to last night. Hopefully we’ll see some reporting on the ground hydrology not just about how the drainage systems couldn’t handle it.
       • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.1

         4 June 2015 at 11:25 am

         I’m guessing the water table is full.

         I’m guessing that the land is covered in concrete, tar-seal and buildings.
         • weka 5.1.1.1.1

           4 June 2015 at 11:40 am

           That too. But from what I remember South Dunedin is still largely suburban sections with lawns and gardens. Will be very interesting to see what comes out of this.
           • Gangnam Style 5.1.1.1.1.1

             4 June 2015 at 12:52 pm

             South Dunedin is total suburbia. A few years ago I buried a big dog in the backyard, I got about 3-4 feet deep into the lawn & it was all rocky, sandy & there were large puddles of water. We are below sea level here, in what used to be dunes & wetlands, I remember it flooding this high about 7 years ago, though it only lasted a few hours. Water is def going down, slowly, now the clean up begins.
             • weka …

               4 June 2015 at 12:56 pm

               ok, that makes sense.

               Do you remember what time of year the last flood was?
   • Ovid 5.2

     4 June 2015 at 10:53 am

     The backyard looked a bit like the Somme last night, but otherwise I’m ok. It had drained away by this morning. I have Lindsay’s Creek right behind my house, but there’s quite a high flood wall in place. I understand it burst its banks a little further up the valley, though.
6. Dont worry. Be happy 6

   4 June 2015 at 9:08 am

   Given that FIFA events seem to be allocated by bribe who paid who to have the Under Twenty held here?
   • Tracey 6.1

     4 June 2015 at 10:19 am

     charlie dempsey but with his votes over the years
   • Colonial Rawshark 6.2

     4 June 2015 at 12:26 pm

     Ask TRP
   • b waghorn 6.3

     4 June 2015 at 12:34 pm

     Its not a bribe its a facilitation payment
     • Kiwiri 6.3.1

       4 June 2015 at 2:05 pm

       haha. talley could be a facilitation payer and the national party could be a facilitation payee. brilliant.
7. Chooky 7

   4 June 2015 at 9:21 am

   This will be difficult for the corporate vaccination industry to sweep under the carpet (but I expect they will)….because teenage girls have voices and can be quite articulate about what is ailing them…unlike vulnerable babies who can only cry

   ‘Thousands of teenage girls enduring debilitating illnesses after routine school cancer vaccination’

   http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/thousands-of-teenage-girls-enduring-debilitating-illnesses-after-routine-school-cancer-vaccination-10286876.html?origi
   • Molly 7.1

     4 June 2015 at 9:28 am

     The Gardasil programme was always ill conceived.
     • northshoredoc 7.1.1

       4 June 2015 at 9:43 am

       Why was it ill conceived Molly ?

       Seems a fairly sound concept to me.

       In some people HPV infections may cause benign warts or cancers of the cervix, vagina, penis, oropharynx and anus. In particular, HPV16 and HPV18 are known to cause around 70% of cervical cancer cases. A vaccine was developed which was posited to provide protection against these and the population at greatest risk of developing cervical cancers was offered free immunisation provided by the state.

       As with all immunisation in NZ it is not compulsory.
       • Molly 7.1.1.1

         4 June 2015 at 10:45 am

         It is hard to get females to attend cervical smears regularly. In fact, there have been many campaigns organised to do this.

         As you know, cervical smears pick up cell anomalies, and if identification, diagnosis and treatment is done in a timely manner, result in practically 100% avoidance of development into cancer.

         Gardasil literature also reinforces the need for regular smears to continue.

         Human nature and personal discomfort should be taken into account. There is likely to be many women, who – after getting their vaccination – will delay or avoid getting regular smears – convincing themselves that they are safe. This is a foreseeable problem.

         IIRC, the Gardasil vaccination programme cost $160 million. There were indications that a rollout for teenage boys would also take place.

         In order to have a more accurate smear test, I pay an extra $25 at my GP.

         I would have thought the amount spent on Gardasil could be spent on subsidising more accurate tests, or on facilitating random re-checks on smears for quality assurance. (There has been a delay in errors being picked up on smear results because of a lack of investment in this in the past).

         When this campaign was running, I looked into the vaccine in order to determine whether to get my daughter vaccinated. IIRC, the effectiveness of vaccine against HPV 16, and HPV 18 was offset by the replacment of those HPVs with more virulent strains in some cases – increasing the likelihood of cancer from a different HPV.

         A very quick google search on a source you may find credible shows up a letter to the NEMJ:
         “… Our editorial raised additional unanswered questions beyond the concerns addressed by Miller et al., including overall vaccine efficacy in women unexposed to relevant vaccine HPV types, effect on cytologic abnormalities, and effect on disease caused by HPV types not included in the vaccine. The last question is particularly important, in light of the surprising report of vulvar cancer in a 22-year-old trial participant who received the vaccine1; vulvar cancer is rare (overall incidence, 2.2 cases per 100,000 persons) and occurs at a median age of 68 years in the United States.2 This finding and the cited unanswered questions argue for a cautious approach to vaccination policy until trials have been completed and fully reported.

         George F. Sawaya, M.D.
         Karen Smith-McCune, M.D., Ph.D.
         University of California at San Francisco, San Francisco, CA 94118”

         At the time, I delved into reviews of the clinical trials, and peer reviews. I’m not going to do that all again. I’m guessing you have the ability to do so yourself.

         Fundamentally, the human factor of avoiding smears because of assumed vaccination protection, is the one issue that was never dealt with adequately.
         • Rosie 7.1.1.1.1

           4 June 2015 at 12:15 pm

           “In order to have a more accurate smear test, I pay an extra $25 at my GP.”

           Sidestepping the vaccination debate going on here, do you mind me asking, Molly, what makes the more expensive test different from the standard cervical smear test?
           I wasn’t even aware there was two different tests and need to find out more about it. (I had an abnormal result 25 years ago when I was a young un and try to keep on top of having regular smears despite the discomfort).

           There isn’t a nurse available at the surgery that I go to that do the test so you need to be charged the Dr’s fee which is $43. For that reason I go to the family planning clinic where they charge $23. The Dame Margaret Sparrow clinic in fact, who coincidentally was interviewed on Radio Active this morning, about her life’s work and the contraception collection she has donated to Te Papa and is currently being exhibited there.

           You don’t have to answer but I’d be interested to know how much you are being charged, all up. Any ideas where I can find out about this more accurate test?

           Should be free btw, screening for reproductive cancers. Testing should be available to all, regardless of their financial status.
           • Molly 7.1.1.1.1.1

             4 June 2015 at 12:31 pm

             Hi Rosie, there is a free test. I have a very dour, but straight talking GP, whom offered a more “accurate” test a few years ago.

             When I asked about it, she said that the processing allowed for more accurate results in finding anomalies. For the cost – around $25 – I took that option and have continued to do so. In this case, I couldn’t be bothered to do the research – as it is non-invasivve.

             (Northshoredoc might know about it and the name of the supplier.)
             • Rosie …

               4 June 2015 at 12:54 pm

               Thanks Molly. Interesting. I asked my Dr about low cost/free testing and he referred me to family planning. When I asked them about it there was only the $23 option.

               I was of the understanding that the screening process became more sophisticated and more advanced quite some years ago. Now I’m wondering if the older pap smears are still around and they may be free.
         • Colonial Rawshark 7.1.1.1.2

           4 June 2015 at 12:28 pm

           It is hard to get females to attend cervical smears regularly. In fact, there have been many campaigns organised to do this.

           yep, this is a behavioural disaster in the making. I can think of better ways to have spent hundreds of millions of NZ health dollars than on some drug company’s unproven drug full of unknown risks.

           As with all immunisation in NZ it is not compulsory.

           Oh, how reassuring, at this late stage after all the pressure has been put on parents.
     • Chooky 7.1.2

       4 June 2015 at 9:46 am

       @ Molly …yes there have been bad side effects reported about this vaccine from the beginning…but it doesnt seem to stop them from promoting it or continue with blanket vaccination of young girls

       …thank goodness my daughter was very skeptical if not rude about it and there was no way she would have taken this vaccination
       • Molly 7.1.2.1

         4 June 2015 at 10:51 am

         There are many stories about the assumption of consent being made at schools over the implementation of this vaccine.

         And other personal stories about coercion and pressure being used on students that declined.
     • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.3

       4 June 2015 at 10:06 am

       It did seem a little weird to vaccinate against one STD and not others.
       • northshoredoc 7.1.3.1

         4 June 2015 at 10:17 am

         We do vaccinate against other STDs where there are vaccines available Rosemary.

         Unfortunately for most there are no vaccines available.
         • Tracey 7.1.3.1.1

           4 June 2015 at 10:21 am

           doc

           is there a gender divide in std stats or does it afflict close to 50/50
           • northshoredoc 7.1.3.1.1.1

             4 June 2015 at 10:24 am

             Around 50/50 I believe with the longer term adverse outcomes being down to the differences in plumbing.

             I’ll ask one go the O&Gs at tea and get back to you.
             • Tracey …

               4 June 2015 at 11:38 am

               thanks doc. much appreciated.
               • northshoredoc …

                 4 June 2015 at 2:58 pm

                 As above Tracey, apparently almost all of us will be exposed as adults.
                 • Tracey …

                   4 June 2015 at 3:04 pm

                   Thanks Doc, I wondered if more women than men (or vice versa) contract STD’s but ow to your access to that knowledge.
   • The Murphey 7.2

     4 June 2015 at 9:58 am

     http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2013/06/14/editorials/hpv-vaccine-raises-questions/#.VVk2nEZF0q_

     Japan
   • Stephanie Rodgers 7.3

     4 June 2015 at 10:08 am

     The actual facts presented in the article: 8,000 “adverse drug reactions” reported related to HPV vaccine out of “many millions” of vaccinations administered.

     No detail given on the criteria for reporting, whether people are more likely to report (vs other vaccines) because of the panic-mongering hype around the HPV vaccine, or clinical confirmation that the reactions were actually *caused* by the vaccine.

     Given the infamous panic around the MMR vaccine – which many, many parents of autistic children “reported” was to blame for their kids’ condition – this isn’t really the killing blow to the HPV vaccine you seem to think it is.
     • Rosemary McDonald 7.3.1

       4 June 2015 at 10:24 am

       Whether one is pro or anti vaccination is immaterial when it comes to this particular vaccine.

       A vaccine to give protection against one sexually transmitted disease when there are so many other STDs one can be exposed to seems illogical.

       And those other STDs are getting harder to manage due to antibiotic resistance.

       The only protection against the other diseases is the use of condoms.
       • Draco T Bastard 7.3.1.1

         4 June 2015 at 11:43 am

         A vaccine to give protection against one sexually transmitted disease when there are so many other STDs one can be exposed to seems illogical.

         No it doesn’t. If you only have a vaccine for one then you apply it. You don’t wait until you’ve got a vaccine for all of them before doing so.

         The only protection against the other diseases is the use of condoms.

         A condom is the only protection against the spread of all STDs.
         • Colonial Rawshark 7.3.1.1.1

           4 June 2015 at 12:39 pm

           A condom is the only protection against the spread of all STDs.

           what?
           • Draco T Bastard 7.3.1.1.1.1

             4 June 2015 at 1:11 pm

             Nope, can’t see what your problem is.
             • McFlock …

               4 June 2015 at 9:53 pm

               Well, most STDs – not sure about warts offhand, or whether face-herpes or glandular fever counts.

               And there’s always the “everyone should be celibate until marriage with a person known to be similarly celibate” bullshit, which is pretty reliable in the infintesimal proportion of folk who manage to apply it correctly.

               And is the term “vaccine” applicable to bacterial diseases, in the same way that antibiotics only combat bacteria?

               maybe NSDoc knows – the blanket “all” usually makes me hunt for counterexamples. ’tis an affliction of mine.

               But encouraging condom use is definitely the most effective way of combating most STDs, including the 100% terminal STD called “life”.

               But HPV can and will be largely eradicated by a vaccine that is many, many times safer than getting HPV.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 4 June 2015 at 11:53 pm

                 the vaccine has zero chance of “largely eradicating” hpv. not even at the global cost of $100B gifted to big pharma.

                 hell, talk about human hubris; hpv and its close relations are very likely to outlast homo sapiens full stop.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   5 June 2015 at 5:08 am

                   Your spouting ignorance again. An effective vaccine will largely eradicate a disease. As an example, polio has been largely and almost entirely eradicated from most Western nations since the advent of the polio vaccine.
                   • McFlock …

                     5 June 2015 at 7:22 am

                     ooooh, my smallpox has been acting up something wicked lately.
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 5 June 2015 at 5:05 am

                 And is the term “vaccine” applicable to bacterial diseases, in the same way that antibiotics only combat bacteria?

                 A vaccine works by essentially teaching the immune system about the disease so that it recognises it and generates the correct anti-bodies when/if the body is actually infected by that disease. It doesn’t matter if the disease is bacterial or viral it still works the same way.
                 • McFlock …

                   5 June 2015 at 7:18 am

                   one of several questions I’d like to look into further before saying “condoms prevent all STDs”.
     • Colonial Rawshark 7.3.2

       4 June 2015 at 12:34 pm

       Given the infamous panic around the MMR vaccine – which many, many parents of autistic children “reported” was to blame for their kids’ condition – this isn’t really the killing blow to the HPV vaccine you seem to think it is.

       What does “the killing blow” have to do with it?

       The point is young women receiving damaging medical treatment paid for by tax payers and promoted by male dominated authorities. Parents have once again been pressured by authorities into giving children a vaccination for which they were not aware of potential awful side effects and the very minimal benefits. That’s unethical. That’s inexcusable.
       • Chooky 7.3.2.1

         4 June 2015 at 2:59 pm

         +100 CR
       • McFlock 7.3.2.2

         4 June 2015 at 10:12 pm

         Let’s be realistic, CV:
         If gardasil was found to cause cancer at a lower rate than the current incidence HPV causes the same cancer, you’d still use the exact phrase “potential awful side effects and the very minimal benefits”. But it gardasil isn’t even that bad compared to getting HPV.

         You’re patently unqualified and inadequate to discuss the science, efficacy, ethics, or medical effects of decisions to vaccinate or not. But that doesn’t stop you being a bigger medical propagandist than anything you claim about the MoH and ‘big pharma’ combined.
         • Colonial Viper 7.3.2.2.1

           4 June 2015 at 11:48 pm

           humans and hpv have gotten along for a very long time. humans and gardasil – hardly any time whatsoever. and it shows.
           • McFlock 7.3.2.2.1.1

             5 June 2015 at 7:20 am

             lol
             “gotten along”?

             HPV kills people.
           • locus 7.3.2.2.1.2

             5 June 2015 at 7:25 am

             CV …
             are you suggesting that humans should “get along” with hpv???

             Did you not read the article in the Independent?
             “In the UK, about 3,000 women a year are diagnosed with cervical cancer and it is estimated that about 400 lives could be saved every year as a result of vaccinating girls before they are infected with the human papilloma virus.”

             The only issue here is that ‘big pharma’ must improve the vaccine so there are no, or very minor, side effects and that the improved vaccine ensures fewer people experience side effects
           • Kiwiri 7.3.2.2.1.3

             5 June 2015 at 9:38 am

             I read “gotten along” as co-existing as part of ecological history.

             As for the statement “HPV kills people”, isn’t the current medical evidence showing that there are more than hundreds of HPV types and, from those, approximately 10 percent are cancer-causing ?
             • McFlock …

               5 June 2015 at 10:07 am

               Whether the statement was delusonal (existed happily together and cooperated) or meaningless (simply existed at the same time) is a distinction about which I do not particularly care.

               And yes, “HPV types 16 and 18 cause an estimated 70% of cervical cancers“. Those and the wart strains are what gardasil is targetted at (interesting – didn’t know it did genital warts as well).
   • The Murphey 7.4

     4 June 2015 at 10:18 am

     https://sharylattkisson.com/

     Various subjects covered ….
     • Rosemary McDonald 7.4.1

       4 June 2015 at 10:28 am

       “In the unusual vaccine court, the government acts on behalf of pharmaceutical companies rather than the public, defending vaccine makers against alleged victims. Money damages are not paid by vaccine companies, but through fees collected from patients on every dose of vaccine.”

       https://sharylattkisson.com/

       Definitely in the WTF category.
       • Colonial Rawshark 7.4.1.1

         4 June 2015 at 3:38 pm

         Vaccine court injury payouts are seen as a simple cost of doing business
     • joe90 7.4.2

       4 June 2015 at 11:47 am

       RWNJ Benghazi truther says shit.
       /

       http://www.mediaite.com/online/cbs-news-sharyl-attkisson-also-presented-invented-benghazi-emails-as-authentic/

       http://www.salon.com/2015/02/02/a_right_wing_hack_undone_sharyl_attkissons_white_house_hacking_allegation_takes_a_hit/
       • The Murphey 7.4.2.1

         4 June 2015 at 3:36 pm

         So you went looking for dirt on the journalist as opposed to reading the material and commenting on it

         Clever boy
       • Colonial Rawshark 7.4.2.2

         4 June 2015 at 3:41 pm

         RWNJ Benghazi truther says shit.

         Any chance of you making a comment on the analyses of the vaccination injury court?
   • weka 7.5

     4 June 2015 at 10:24 am

     That’s a good solid article, thanks.

     This bit jumps out at me,

     “Every visit to a doctor was met with rolled eyes,” said Mrs Ryalls. “Every mention of the HPV vaccination was met with hostility and ridicule. We were eventually referred to a local paediatrician who told her to push herself to get back to normal – ‘We all feel tired in the mornings, Emily’ was one of the remarks regarding her complete exhaustion.”
     Health news: in pictures

     Two years after falling ill, Emily was eventually referred to Dr Pradip Thakker at Queens Medical Centre in Nottingham; he used a tilt table test to diagnose PoTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome), a condition where moving from lying down to standing up causes an abnormally high heart rate. By this time Emily was able to manage only three to four hours of school a week. Mrs Ryalls, who had built up a small publishing company from scratch, was forced to close it and become Emily’s full-time carer.

     That adverse reaction reporting is still treated like this is very poor practice by health authorities and medical practitioners (although it does fit the pattern of chronic illness in general).

     and the bit futher down where a health authority basically says too fucking bad people with chronic illness, we saved lives.

     There’s actually no need for health systems or even pro-vaccine advocates to keep throwing people under the bus like this. Nor is it necessary to characterise adverse reporting as somehow hysterical.

     I’d like to see a pubilc debate about the relative value of how lives are being saved and why those are used to invalidate the suffering of people still alive but whose lives and health have been destroyed. We already know that people with chronic illness are treated badly by society and the health system, esp people with illnesses that aren’t easily managed or treated by mainstream medical science., so it’s not surprisind that many related to vaccinations are going to farebadly. We can do much better.
     • Colonial Rawshark 7.5.1

       4 June 2015 at 3:45 pm

       The pro-vaccination lobby like to promote themselves as being rational, not evangelical. As evidence based, not dogmatic. As scientific, not belief driven.

       But what does their ***behaviour*** tell you.
       • Chooky 7.5.1.1

         4 June 2015 at 9:46 pm

         +100 CR
       • locus 7.5.1.2

         5 June 2015 at 7:38 am

         Anti-vaccination is dogmatic, emotional and rejects medical science. FIFY

         The ***behaviour*** of medical scientists is to constantly look for ways to prevent ill-health, and this includes to care about and try to remove the risk of side effects of medicines, vaccines…

         Somehow on the basis of one person’s story about an unsympathetic perhaps arrogant doctor, you have invented a notion that ‘all’ those who trust in medical science are unconcerned about pain and side effects..

         i’m offended
         • Chooky 7.5.1.2.1

           5 June 2015 at 9:21 am

           …if you are “offended” then maybe it is displaced…it may surprise you that many doctors also have reservations about some vaccines and they DO care about their clients and their own children and DON’T have them vaccinated with everything the drug companies push

           …these doctors also RESPECT the opinions and experiences of their clients and the general public

           …my advice to parents and girls is to shop around until you find a doctor who respects you , one that does NOT offend you or your intelligence and experience … or violate your wellbeing by pushing on you vaccines and drugs that could be harmful to your health…it should be informed and shared decision making , ultimately with the final decision up to you

           Big Pharma and vaccinations are a billion dollar industry….not purely altruistic as you make out ….and there have been many mishaps and drugs withdrawn only under public pressure…after much harm has been done

           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcia_Angell

           “In her 2009 article “Drug Companies & Doctors: A Story of Corruption”, published in The New York Review of Books magazine, Angell wrote :[7]

           …Similar conflicts of interest and biases exist in virtually every field of medicine, particularly those that rely heavily on drugs or devices. It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine …

           ( just one of many reservations from the medical profession)
           • Kiwiri 7.5.1.2.1.1

             5 June 2015 at 9:29 am

             Cheers, Chooky. I’m only slowly catching up with the HPV discussion here. I wondered, when I first starting reading this page this morning, if the discussion yesterday was sparked off by having something to do with the following …?

             http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/69091525/hpv-vaccination-report-should-not-scare-parents-health-professionals-say
           • locus 7.5.1.2.1.2

             6 June 2015 at 7:20 am

             chooky re-read what I wrote:

             The ***behaviour*** of medical scientists is to constantly look for ways to prevent ill-health, and this includes to care about and try to remove the risk of side effects of medicines, vaccines…

             Do you have a problem with that?

             And the reason I’m offended is because CV chose to label all all those who know the value and importance of vaccination as somehow represented by the doctors who showed little sympathy to an obviously suffering person….

             I remain offended – not just by CV’s insinuation, but now also by your outburst suggesting that somehow you think you know me well enough to suggest i’d be surprised that many doctors may have reservations about some vaccines.

             As for your view that ‘doctors who are skeptical of vaccines really care about their patients..’ .(.oops you used the word “clients” which tells me more about your views than you profess to know about mine), is a stunning revelation – thank you.

             And your quote from Angell …. spare me – this has nothing to do with the value and importance of vaccination, which is what I thought we were discussing on this thread.

             If you want to talk about the judgement of trusted physicians please direct your attention to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
8. Chooky 8

   4 June 2015 at 9:42 am

   More disturbing news from the UK

   ‘Threat to scrap Human Rights Act could see UK follow Nazi example, warns UN official’

   http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/threat-to-scrap-human-rights-act-could-see-uk-follow-nazi-example-warns-un-official-10287557.html
   • Draco T Bastard 8.1

     4 June 2015 at 11:47 am

     Well, a few of people have been saying that the West has been becoming fascist for quite a while now. This is just one more example.
9. DH 9

   4 June 2015 at 9:51 am

   Does anyone know why Labour aren’t catching the disgusting leakers? is there no desire to catch the traitors in their midst or are they just not organised enough?

   It’s not that hard to catch leakers, just requires a bit of patience and discipline at HQ. These reports, and anything in print which is circulated, should always be created in batches with each batch subtly different to the rest.

   With the wide use of spell checkers it’s easy to insert subtle spelling differences that wouldn’t be picked up, for example you could create a code of American/Englishisms. There’s all sorts of tricks that will eventually fool even the cautious; slightly varied phrases, using steganography etc. Over time you can narrow down the source of leaks and then start feeding a defined group even more doctored information until you catch them red-handed.
   • Tracey 9.1

     4 June 2015 at 10:24 am

     Maybe they did it on purpose to guage public reaction. change it and call the leaked doc a first draft… afterall there is a comment in the margin… now who would do that?
   • Molly 9.2

     4 June 2015 at 12:01 pm

     You don’t even have to do visible spelling changes.

     Punctuation changes – from , to -. or from : to – are impossible to detect when reading a single copy.

     Invisible characters that will get picked up from a “cut and paste” are also possible.
10. The Murphey 10

    4 June 2015 at 10:12 am

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jun/03/fbi-investigating-fifa-2018-2022-world-cup

    According to Reuters, an FBI official who spoke on condition of anonymity said Fifa’s decision to award the World Cups to Russia and Qatar respectively are part of an inquiry that is looking beyond the allegations in an indictment published last week that alleged endemic corruption at the world governing body.

    Q. Who nominated the FBI as World Police ?

    Q. Will the FBI investigate Israel running an open air prison and illegally occupying lands against International law rulings ?

    Q. Why did the FBI not arrest the heads of Wells Fargo / HSBC et al for their role in the biggest money laundering racquets in history ?

    Q. Why did the FBI not arrest the heads of those same banks for rigging the LIBOR / FX rates globally ?

    SHAM / FARCE
    • te reo putake 10.1

      4 June 2015 at 10:23 am

      The FBI are charged with investigating crime that involves American citizens and companies. They are looking for evidence that bribes were paid to win those bids and others. Fair enough, I would have thought.

      It’s hardly surprising that the FBI enquiry will go wider than the first indictment. Not the least because that’s normal procedure in every police enquiry ever. As more evidence is found, more charges are laid. But also because there’s going to be a lot of crooks who are going to grass up their FIFA colleagues to avoid long jail sentences. Chuck Blazer was just the first of many who will roll over.
      • The Murphey 10.1.1

        4 June 2015 at 10:30 am

        The FBI are charged with investigating crime that involves American citizens and companies.

        The FBI are instructed as to who/what they can investigate and when they are to investigate

        FIFY

        Chuck Blazer – ‘ I waited xx years before saying anything at all’ – A stand up bloke

        Bed wetters of the world come together

        SHAME / FARCE
        • te reo putake 10.1.1.1

          4 June 2015 at 10:32 am

          Meaningless dribble, Murphey. Are you Gareth Bale in disguise?
          • The Murphey 10.1.1.1.1

            4 June 2015 at 10:51 am

            Leaving aside the ‘I won’t be playing’ response – Are you Darren Anderton in disguise ?

            The FBI are a sham / farce / joke / for hire agency parading around on behalf of whoever has instructed them to act
          • northshoreguynz 10.1.1.1.2

            4 June 2015 at 1:17 pm

            How dare you impugn a good Tottenham boy.
    • Tracey 10.2

      4 June 2015 at 10:25 am

      more importantly why arent they coming down harder on various corrupt acts by govts around the world. i love the beautiful game …..but
      • The Murphey 10.2.1

        4 June 2015 at 10:32 am

        Q. Are you asking for the FBI to be acting against world governments ?
        • Tracey 10.2.1.1

          4 June 2015 at 3:42 pm

          nope.

          I’m asking agencies to focus on the political corruption of their governments and hold others to account through international organisations… corruption which impacts the lives of the poor and oppressed… which doesn’t include football players, employees and hosts of fifa events.
          • The Murphey 10.2.1.1.1

            4 June 2015 at 4:37 pm

            Understand and agree
      • cogito 10.2.2

        4 June 2015 at 10:43 am

        Is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that Blatter is the spitting image of Key, just a few years older?
        • Puckish Rogue 10.2.2.1

          4 June 2015 at 4:01 pm

          Just you
        • b waghorn 10.2.2.2

          4 June 2015 at 7:25 pm

          Not in looks but in MO definatly , I would imagine key idolizes the likes of Blatter .
    • Draco T Bastard 10.3

      4 June 2015 at 11:53 am

      Try this one where it’s suggested that the corruption at FIFA would never have been caught if the Americans hadn’t got involved. This despite the author pointing out all the corruption in American sports.
11. Ray 11

    4 June 2015 at 11:20 am

    The record rainfall in Dunedin was a record for the last 9 years
    And hardly compares with the 12 inches that fell in 1923
    • Colonial Rawshark 11.1

      4 June 2015 at 6:23 pm

      Nice bit of info there Ray (12″ = 305mm)
12. Sable 12

    4 June 2015 at 12:37 pm

    TPPA relevations:

    http://rt.com/news/264745-wikileaks-secret-tisa-documents/
13. Tracey 13

    4 June 2015 at 3:39 pm

    “And another technique of indoctrination is to cut back faculty-student contact: large classes, temporary teachers who are overburdened, who can barely survive on an adjunct salary. And since you don’t have any job security, you can’t build up a career, you can’t move on and get more. These are all techniques of discipline, indoctrination, and control.” (Noam Chomsky)
    http://voxpopulisphere.com/2014/08/10/noam-chomsky-the-death-of-the-american-university/
14. the Pink Postman 14

    4 June 2015 at 3:56 pm

    Does anyone know who is sending these Flag cards that have ben sent by post to most households.?. it looks very much like the same sort of requiest that we recieved from The League of Rights , anyone know.
15. Puckish Rogue 15

    4 June 2015 at 3:58 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11459417

    National MP Judith Collins tonight released emails that show a $30,000 door that will separate Labour MPs from National MPs sharing a floor in Parliament House was opposed by the National Party.

    Mr Hipkins confirmed tonight that he also received the letter from Mr Robb, that he had he canvassed his MPs and that they wanted the door.

    Yep
    • Tracey 15.1

      4 June 2015 at 4:10 pm

      but she deleted her own emails rather than give them to an enquiry, this ‘nothing to fear nothing to hide” person of the public purse you write of.

      Audrey Young is on the ball, isn’t she. In fact she was so quick to pimp for Collins that she lost the ability to write English

      “Mr Macindoe’s reply her and the six other MPs he consulted says:…”
      • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1

        4 June 2015 at 4:14 pm

        To hard to admit Collins dealt to Hipkins? (although Hipkins made it pretty easy for her)
        • Tracey 15.1.1.1

          4 June 2015 at 4:27 pm

          Just pointing out the hypocrisy PR, sorry if I was too subtle.

          Hipkins, he is in the Labour Party right?
16. weka 16

    4 June 2015 at 4:10 pm

    Another one bites the dust,

    @nzherald: Maori TV’s star broadcaster Mihingarangi Forbes has quit the company after complaining of management interference in the Native Affairs show
    • Draco T Bastard 16.1

      4 June 2015 at 4:35 pm

      Star Maori TV broadcaster Mihingarangi Forbes quits

      The Herald has been told Forbes’ resignation came after the Native Affairs team were told they were not to run a story on Te Kohanga Reo National Trust, planned for Monday.

      How deep into our MSM does the corruption and protection of the privileged go?
      • Tracey 16.1.1

        4 June 2015 at 4:41 pm

        What has the Maori Party had to say, about the resignation and the story not being run?
17. Puckish Rogue 17

    4 June 2015 at 4:15 pm

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/275358/charter-schools-report-top-marks

    The models looking good so far
    • Tracey 17.1

      4 June 2015 at 4:27 pm

      can you confirm their total funding per student compared to public school funding per student? Thanks in advance.
18. Colonial Rawshark 18

    4 June 2015 at 4:35 pm

    As predicted by some The Standard commentators last year, the outstanding journalist Mihi Forbes is now gone. It’s all very much like a McCarthy purge.

    Karen and Rawshark-yeshe were prescient

    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22102014/#comment-915334
    • b waghorn 18.1

      4 June 2015 at 4:57 pm

      John Campbell and Mihinragi Forbes two top reporters needing a vehicle for there reporting. Surely there’s a way ?
      • freedom 18.1.1

        4 June 2015 at 5:08 pm

        IF there existed a media company in New Zealand where journalism still mattered, the lucky owners would be grinning from ear to ear. They would be skipping down the hallways after every meeting as they planned the creation of what could be the most powerful current affairs show ever to grace the screens of Aotearoa.

        Not that many years ago, networks would have been clamouring over each other to seal the deal.

        Mihingarangi Forbes & John Campbell are apparently both available, at the same time. The scope of content such a pairing could carry is rare indeed. An added bonus of course is how they could design a completely new show from the ground up. It’s akin to a rare celestial event, but the opportunity will no doubt be ignored because who wants to go to all the hassle of lifting their heads to look at the sky.

        Needless to say I don’t expect to see this show on our screens anytime soon 🙁
        ( btw, i really hope I am wrong)
        • Tracey 18.1.1.1

          4 June 2015 at 5:09 pm

          crowdfunding for SCOOP to take on mihingarani Forbes
          • Colonial Rawshark 18.1.1.1.1

            4 June 2015 at 6:28 pm

            No, it needs to be a much bigger and much more collective/collaborative idea than that. It needs to be an idea which can raise $10M plus in start up funds, and which changes the landscape of independent news and journalism in NZ, permanently.
            • tracey 18.1.1.1.1.1

              4 June 2015 at 6:35 pm

              i was looking at an idea to employ 1 great journalist with resources.

              but you go ahead with your idea instead. i will donate. let me know when you are open for donations.
              • Colonial Rawshark …

                4 June 2015 at 6:39 pm

                I’ve already written to a few people about the concept. Thank you for your support tracey.
                • tracey …

                  4 June 2015 at 6:44 pm

                  thers alot of disgruntled cl supporters out there.
                  • Colonial Viper …

                    4 June 2015 at 11:55 pm

                    this is a one time opportunity to change the face of independent media in nz.
                    • Tracey …

                      5 June 2015 at 9:58 am

                      Have invited Scoop’s business development manager to join this thread
          • weka 18.1.1.1.2

            4 June 2015 at 6:49 pm

            These people are doing a kind of news outlet via crowdfunding

            http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04062015/#comment-1025143
            • tracey 18.1.1.1.2.1

              4 June 2015 at 6:55 pm

              i saw that.i like the notion of utlising scoop. they have existing networks. cv also is putting irons in the fire.
              • weka …

                4 June 2015 at 7:22 pm

                Not sure what is happening with scoop. There was another online initiative that someone was trying to do last year, something with different pay for service levels, can’t remember what it was.
                • Colonial Viper …

                  4 June 2015 at 11:58 pm

                  all these existing players, including some big names, need to come together collectively to seek major donors who will contribute to something which will last a generation.
                  • weka …

                    5 June 2015 at 12:27 am

                    I was thinking that too. Lots of people are talking about it, which is good, and so far it’s all dispersed.
                    • Tracey …

                      5 June 2015 at 9:51 am

                      ditto
                  • Draco T Bastard …

                    5 June 2015 at 5:15 am

                    Don’t need major donors, just lots of small ones. It’s the chasing after major donors while ignoring all the small ones that is killing the Left in general as major donors tend to have a right-wing tilt to them.
                    • Tracey …

                      5 June 2015 at 9:51 am

                      and/or subscribers…
                    • weka …

                      5 June 2015 at 9:58 am

                      completely agree Draco (and Tracey). What’s missing is organising. There is a huge amount of support to do something, just needs someone to step up and do it (some people, plural).
        • maui 18.1.1.2

          5 June 2015 at 12:36 am

          But it should be online content shouldn’t it? TV is last century and the net is where people are finding their info. If you had a video blog site with Campbell presenting a 5-10 minute clip on a regional issue/political issue and these uploaded throughout the day. You could have regional reporters working remotely and filing stories and then with the Campbell presentation providing the polish. That could be a reduced cost approach anyway.
          • freedom 18.1.1.2.1

            5 June 2015 at 9:51 am

            I agree maui. I may not have explicitly mentioned online content but took it as read, in the environment of the discussion taking place, that designing a new show would/could/should be centred around online media.

            TV, as you say, is so last century. It cannot be denied however it still has an ‘authority of legitimacy’, albeit undeserved. Even in these supposedly enlightened times, many people still suffer the delusion that if it is not broadcast on TV it is not ‘proper news’.
          • Tracey 18.1.1.2.2

            5 June 2015 at 9:52 am

            yes, that is why I think scoop needs to be involved…

            Campbell himself would take a huge chunk out of the budget. It doesn’t reuire him, it requires people focussing on the stuff that CL offered.
19. weka 19

    4 June 2015 at 5:26 pm

    Crowd-funded think tank, campaign/advocacy group, networking facilitator and news outlet in Scotland.

    What is Common Weal?

    Common Weal is a ‘think and do tank’ campaigning for social and economic equality in Scotland.

    We are a think tank, a campaigning and advocacy organisation, a news service, a social media hub, a network of local groups and more. We are also a philosophy of a different kind of Scotland and how we can achieve it.

    Our goal is to achieve a Scotland of social and economic equality and environmental sustainability with a vibrant community and cultural life, widespread democratic participation, a high quality of life and cooperative working. We believe there are a series of key ideas which can explain how we achieve that kind of Scotland. These are all linked to a vision of what a better Scotland could be.

    Common Weal is a non-profit company with a Board drawn from Scotland’s leading activists and campaigners. It emerged during the Scottish independence referendum campaign and began operating as an independent organisation in October 2014.

    We have a team of 13 staff who are divided into four units. The Policy Unit develops carefully thought-through policy proposals, carries our research, engages a wide community in policy discussions and seeks to make policy engaging and easy to understand. The Parliament and Campaigns Unit then campaigns in the Scottish Parliament and beyond to make those policies happen. The Common Weal Local team support and coordinate a series of local Common Weal groups. Each is autonomous and pursues its own priorities but all share the Common Weal philosophy and seek to make it a reality in their own communities. And CommonSpace is a news service and social media hub which seeks to bring people together, help them to organise and provide them with the news they want to read.

    Common Weal is entirely funded through lots of small regular donations from our supporters, and from some merchandising and events income. Every penny is used to support all the activities above, overwhelmingly by enabling us to employ our staff.

    http://allofusfirst.org/what-is-common-weal/
    • Colonial Viper 19.1

      4 June 2015 at 11:59 pm

      a very good model to pivot off
      • weka 19.1.1

        5 June 2015 at 12:25 am

        I’m just reading through the Food document (in the Library) which is impressive. They’ve merged socioeconomics with the need for localising food production and going smaller scale and resilient/sustainable, and tied in AGW as well.
20. Tracey 20

    4 June 2015 at 5:30 pm

    More sexual abuse breaches of confidentiality by this Government. I suppose when the leader thinks constantly pulling a stranger’s pony tale is funny, that a paedophile loose in Chile is funny that attempted rape isn’t serious enough to warrant an apology, we shouldnt be surprised.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/275279/child-abuse-details-sent-to-wrong-personit's not a serious topic for an apology

    Still, keeping TPP clauses from the people… THATs crucial.

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